WEBVTT - The Future of Bitcoin ETFs with Patrick Daugherty 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.470 With Bitcoin ETFs now active, you might be feeling slightly 0:00:04.470 --> 0:00:09.150 sheepish to ask what exactly is a Bitcoin ETF? No 0:00:09.150 --> 0:00:11.280 need for you to feel sheepish. We're going to ask 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.490 the question for you as we welcome Patrick Doherty to 0:00:14.490 --> 0:00:18.870 the show. A teacher of digital assets at Cornell Law School, Mr. 0:00:18.870 --> 0:00:22.830 Doherty has contributed several books on securities regulation and new 0:00:22.829 --> 0:00:26.280 financial products. He was with the SEC during the Reagan 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.940 Bush years and helped craft regulations, which are used today 0:00:29.940 --> 0:00:34.260 to sell tokens and compliance with US securities law. Asking 0:00:34.260 --> 0:00:38.940 questions sheepishly doesn't make you a sheep, just an inquisitive person. 0:00:38.940 --> 0:00:42.090 So join the herd at the Republic of Bad Cryptopia 0:00:42.090 --> 0:00:46.530 as we discover everything you wanted to know about Bitcoin ETFs, 0:00:46.530 --> 0:00:52.150 but we're afraid to ask on episode number 710. Of 0:00:52.150 --> 0:00:59.920 the Bad Crypto Podcast 54310. 0:01:00.220 --> 0:01:22.760 It's insane. Who's bad? And. 0:01:24.980 --> 0:01:29.990 I am feeling she is telling me how to vote. 0:01:31.670 --> 0:01:33.800 Man. Are you. Are you too scared to ask? 0:01:33.830 --> 0:01:39.050 Man, I'm too afraid to question authority. Hey. 0:01:39.620 --> 0:01:43.460 Very good. Well, welcome to episode number 710 of the 0:01:43.459 --> 0:01:46.039 Bad Crypto Podcast. We got a good one today, folks. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.950 We're talking about Bitcoin ETFs and all the things around 0:01:48.950 --> 0:01:50.660 that thing that you might not know about. 0:01:50.660 --> 0:01:54.620 And we're going to make it really sexy because Bitcoin 0:01:54.620 --> 0:01:57.890 ETFs can be you know this whenever you talk about 0:01:57.890 --> 0:02:01.490 financial instruments it can be really boring. But Patrick is 0:02:01.490 --> 0:02:05.600 not boring. And we are super sexy. So all the 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.400 questions will be asked with more male music going in 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:11.690 the background. 0:02:12.910 --> 0:02:14.140 Patrick Doherty. 0:02:14.139 --> 0:02:16.600 Oh, yeah. Oh, and stay tuned on the other side 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.750 because all of the crypto bull dragons you guys bought them, 0:02:19.750 --> 0:02:22.570 they're gone. You own them. 24 of them are now 0:02:22.570 --> 0:02:26.380 in the firm hands of those who own a crypto 0:02:26.380 --> 0:02:30.130 bull dragon. And we're going to announce when you're going 0:02:30.130 --> 0:02:32.710 to be able to join us. Only those 24 are 0:02:32.710 --> 0:02:34.630 going to be able to join us for a special 0:02:34.630 --> 0:02:38.710 two hour meeting with myself. Sir. Lord Travis are going 0:02:38.710 --> 0:02:40.150 to be there. So we're going to share that with 0:02:40.150 --> 0:02:43.179 you on the other end of this interview that happens 0:02:43.180 --> 0:02:49.269 to be coming up well right now ETFs ETFs ETFs 0:02:49.270 --> 0:02:52.660 Bitcoin spot. It's all the rage right now. Of course 0:02:52.660 --> 0:02:55.780 we've covered this in the form of the latest news 0:02:55.780 --> 0:02:59.680 on our show. But what does it all mean. And 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.050 here with us today to help break it down we've 0:03:02.050 --> 0:03:06.010 got an Irishman. His name is Patrick Doherty. Yes. And 0:03:06.010 --> 0:03:10.389 he is. He conceived and directs the digital assets practice 0:03:10.389 --> 0:03:13.900 of Foley and Lardner LLP, based in Chicago. He also 0:03:13.900 --> 0:03:17.740 teaches digital assets at Cornell Law School. He's got a 0:03:17.740 --> 0:03:22.570 whole litany of things that he's done, including working for 0:03:22.570 --> 0:03:26.109 the SEC during the Reagan Bush years, all those years ago. 0:03:26.110 --> 0:03:28.630 And he's got a lot to say about what these 0:03:28.630 --> 0:03:33.460 ETFs might possibly mean for the future of crypto, Bitcoin, 0:03:33.460 --> 0:03:38.230 our economy and blockchain in general. Patrick, welcome to the 0:03:38.230 --> 0:03:39.670 Bad Crypto podcast. 0:03:40.180 --> 0:03:43.120 Thanks for having me Joel. Yeah, Travis as. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.880 Well. And other guy Travis to you guy over here. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:46.780 This is me. Yeah, yeah. 0:03:46.990 --> 0:03:49.540 Don't forget the other guy. Um, just so we have 0:03:49.540 --> 0:03:53.020 a firm foundation to go on so people understand the 0:03:53.020 --> 0:03:56.170 the credibility of the thoughts you're going to share, the 0:03:56.170 --> 0:03:58.960 words you're going to say, and perhaps the jokes that 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.300 you'll make with us along the way. Uh, go ahead 0:04:01.300 --> 0:04:03.550 and fill in. Put a little bit more meat on 0:04:03.550 --> 0:04:05.650 the bones of your bio for me. 0:04:05.740 --> 0:04:10.870 Yeah. Well, um. As you can tell if you're looking 0:04:10.870 --> 0:04:14.350 at this, I've got some age. I'm well into my 0:04:14.350 --> 0:04:18.039 60s now, and for 40 years I was a trad 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:23.560 fi lawyer doing IPOs, takeovers, that sort of thing. I 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.159 still do that work, but about seven years ago, I 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.549 went down the rabbit hole of crypto and have been 0:04:30.550 --> 0:04:39.550 since then been advising prop traders, exchanges, token issuers, funds, 0:04:39.550 --> 0:04:46.089 really everyone across the entire, uh, ecosystem. Uh, and I 0:04:46.089 --> 0:04:50.979 do some. Volunteer work on the legislation that's coursing through 0:04:50.980 --> 0:04:54.250 Congress right now. I teach at Cornell, as you mentioned, 0:04:54.250 --> 0:04:59.050 and I live in Chicago. I also lecture at Northwestern 0:04:59.050 --> 0:05:02.680 Law School in Chicago and several others when I'm not 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:03.190 at Cornell. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.580 Is the law school in Evanston as well, or is, uh, 0:05:06.580 --> 0:05:08.050 is it actually located? 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.310 No, it's it's it's it's downtown in Cedarville. Mhm. Uh, 0:05:12.310 --> 0:05:16.599 and uh, uh, you know, along with the medical school, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.339 it's near the hospital. 0:05:18.430 --> 0:05:21.490 Got it. All right. Well, let's let's, uh, let's start 0:05:21.490 --> 0:05:25.270 at a really high level and then we can drill 0:05:25.270 --> 0:05:29.500 down on this, these ETFs of course. Long anticipated. Uh, 0:05:29.500 --> 0:05:33.010 turns out the price of Bitcoin had the anticipation built 0:05:33.010 --> 0:05:38.950 into the rumor. The news hit Bitcoin's currently down. Um, explain. 0:05:38.950 --> 0:05:42.190 For those of us that think on a 12 year 0:05:42.190 --> 0:05:44.800 old level what these mean. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.469 Oh, well, you can think of it as, uh. Uh, 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.700 a pot of Bitcoin that's held, you know, by a fund, 0:05:54.700 --> 0:06:00.250 by a sponsor. Uh, the fund issues shares in, in it, 0:06:00.250 --> 0:06:04.600 in it, uh, and those shares trade on a stock 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.409 exchange in this case NYSE Arca. So you buy and 0:06:08.410 --> 0:06:13.180 sell the shares which represent interests in in Bitcoin instead 0:06:13.180 --> 0:06:16.510 of owning Bitcoin directly or in addition to that if 0:06:16.510 --> 0:06:18.130 you so desire. 0:06:18.900 --> 0:06:21.480 So we just assuming that they're holding it then. Right. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.789 So we. So it seems like the regulation it seems 0:06:23.790 --> 0:06:25.770 like they have to be holding it. And so as 0:06:25.770 --> 0:06:28.440 the price of Bitcoin goes, the more that they hold 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.380 like the like for example, to me it seems like wow, 0:06:31.380 --> 0:06:35.729 what if MicroStrategy did a Bitcoin ETF right. They have 0:06:35.730 --> 0:06:38.370 so many bitcoin like that could be. 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.550 Well that's that that's that's a really good point I 0:06:41.550 --> 0:06:46.740 mean these are audited. So yeah the Bitcoin's really there 0:06:46.740 --> 0:06:51.840 because auditors confirm it. And you're right MicroStrategy owns an 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.719 awful lot of Bitcoin. It is kind of sort of 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.250 like an ETF. It does have other business. It doesn't 0:06:59.250 --> 0:07:03.480 only hold Bitcoin. So it's not a pure play the 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.210 way these funds are. These funds are pure plays. If 0:07:06.210 --> 0:07:11.970 you own shares of a Bitcoin ETP exchange traded product 0:07:12.630 --> 0:07:16.320 you own an indirect indirect interest in bitcoin and and 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:22.290 nothing else. Mhm. Uh. So it is as if you 0:07:22.290 --> 0:07:27.720 held the, uh, you held the, the cash product itself. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:33.450 So how do, um, how are we assured via these audits? 0:07:33.450 --> 0:07:36.270 We know that audits are only as reliable as the 0:07:36.270 --> 0:07:39.420 people who are auditing them, that the same thing that's 0:07:39.420 --> 0:07:42.840 happened with the precious metals market, uh, silver and gold 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:47.880 being traded heavily on paper and thereby manipulating the price 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.580 of metals to be as low as they are. How 0:07:50.580 --> 0:07:54.540 do we know that same thing won't or perhaps can't 0:07:54.540 --> 0:07:57.810 happen with the Bitcoin ETFs? Well. 0:07:58.230 --> 0:08:02.190 Smart question because you know that's been a concern of 0:08:02.190 --> 0:08:06.810 the SEC all along. Uh you know these these have 0:08:06.810 --> 0:08:10.530 been proposed now for more than ten years. That's how 0:08:10.530 --> 0:08:13.739 long it took to get one through the SEC. We 0:08:13.740 --> 0:08:17.370 can talk about that too. But, uh, how do we 0:08:17.370 --> 0:08:20.040 know it's not manipulated? We don't know for sure, but 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:26.880 there are surveillance agreements between the sponsors. Well, between the 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:31.410 listing exchange on the one hand and, uh, the CME 0:08:32.010 --> 0:08:34.740 on the other, which is where the where the futures 0:08:34.740 --> 0:08:42.210 contracts trade and those surveillance agreements, uh, you know, help 0:08:42.210 --> 0:08:47.670 detect possible manipulation. Uh, is it perfect? No. Is it 0:08:47.670 --> 0:08:54.660 pretty good? Yeah. Probably is. Um. Uh, all I won't say. Oh, commodities. 0:08:54.660 --> 0:08:59.970 But many commodities are susceptible to manipulation because the cash 0:08:59.970 --> 0:09:07.000 markets are very thinly regulated. Um, so it is an issue. 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.480 It is a concern. And but that's something that investors 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.360 take into account in making up their minds whether they 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.880 want to buy this or not. I mean, if these 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.450 are spelled out as risk factors in the prospectus, you know, 0:09:19.450 --> 0:09:21.940 this could be this product could be manipulated or the 0:09:21.940 --> 0:09:26.679 underlying the underlying market could be manipulated. And if it is, 0:09:27.370 --> 0:09:30.160 you could suffer for that. So you take your chances 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:31.570 if you buy. Mm. 0:09:31.900 --> 0:09:35.890 It does sound like the, the potential for, you know, 0:09:35.890 --> 0:09:39.429 some corruptions seems to be because it's so weird to me, Patrick, 0:09:39.429 --> 0:09:43.209 about how, you know, uh, Larry Fink of Blackrock was 0:09:43.210 --> 0:09:44.920 like no big con. And then all of a sudden 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.470 he's like, oh my God, I'm a big believer in Bitcoin. 0:09:47.470 --> 0:09:51.790 Yeah well Bitcoin like what what is going what has 0:09:51.790 --> 0:09:54.640 changed his mind. It's weird to me. 0:09:55.150 --> 0:09:58.660 There are a lot of new converts uh in the 0:09:58.660 --> 0:10:04.870 trad fi institutions right. The big asset managers, the investment banks. Uh. 0:10:06.020 --> 0:10:09.380 You know what changed their mind? I don't know, but 0:10:09.380 --> 0:10:13.910 I know it's a big market. Possibly the ability to 0:10:13.910 --> 0:10:16.309 sell a lot of product here has got to be 0:10:16.309 --> 0:10:23.559 a motivation for some. Um. Uh, the, uh, you know, 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.829 the the the chairman of, uh, Morgan Stanley, I should 0:10:26.830 --> 0:10:32.170 say the recently retired CEO of Morgan Stanley, still on 0:10:32.170 --> 0:10:37.000 the board, um, said, uh, I think just last week 0:10:37.270 --> 0:10:42.100 that he thinks that, um, you know, Bitcoin has a place, 0:10:42.100 --> 0:10:45.250 albeit a very small place. Those are the words he used. 0:10:45.790 --> 0:10:51.330 Very small place in the portfolio of wealthy people. Um, 0:10:52.170 --> 0:10:58.530 but that is highly speculative. Um, uh, instrument and, uh, 0:10:58.530 --> 0:11:03.620 needs to be understood that way. Uh, so. I'm not 0:11:03.620 --> 0:11:06.290 a finance guy. I don't give financial advice, but I 0:11:06.290 --> 0:11:11.420 think a lot of asset managers are saying something like 1% 0:11:11.420 --> 0:11:17.870 of a portfolio might be in crypto assets and particularly Bitcoin. 0:11:17.870 --> 0:11:22.819 Some say 1 to 5%. Again, that's not advice from me. 0:11:23.090 --> 0:11:28.480 I'm just saying that's what they're saying on the street now. Um, 0:11:28.929 --> 0:11:33.880 and then others say 0%. Vanguard apparently has decided that 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.150 they're not going to allow their customers to buy any 0:11:37.150 --> 0:11:41.079 of these Bitcoin. Uh, exchange traded products. And so if 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.720 you're a Vanguard customer and you don't like it, you 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:45.520 got to open an account somewhere else. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.170 I think they are too. I mean, at least I 0:11:47.170 --> 0:11:51.010 noticed on X that people are very verbal. They're like, okay, fine. 0:11:51.010 --> 0:11:52.870 I just tell you, yeah, that's fine. I want us 0:11:52.870 --> 0:11:53.950 to be your customer. 0:11:53.950 --> 0:11:55.570 You know, you don't want to sell it. I'll go 0:11:55.570 --> 0:12:00.550 to fidelity or I'll go somewhere else. So, um, there 0:12:00.550 --> 0:12:04.179 is an awful lot of demand for this product when 0:12:04.690 --> 0:12:10.689 when grayscale proposed to list and got denied and then sued. 0:12:10.690 --> 0:12:13.900 And then one. That's a great story in itself. But 0:12:14.050 --> 0:12:17.890 when they did that, there were thousands of comment letters 0:12:17.890 --> 0:12:21.850 to the SEC saying, please approve this. That came from 0:12:21.850 --> 0:12:25.120 people who really wanted to buy the product. And the 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:29.110 SEC wasn't let them letting them buy it. Uh, because 0:12:29.110 --> 0:12:33.160 the SEC is you basically was in so many words, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.100 we understand this better than you. We know what's good 0:12:36.100 --> 0:12:39.309 for you better than you do. And we don't think 0:12:39.309 --> 0:12:42.579 this is something you should invest in. That's called merit regulation. 0:12:42.580 --> 0:12:44.200 And they're not supposed to do that. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.020 It's so nice that they're there to protect us. Uh, 0:12:47.020 --> 0:12:50.050 you know, I mean, meanwhile, they issue a, uh, a 0:12:50.050 --> 0:12:53.710 fake tweet saying that the ETFs are approved, Bitcoin goes 0:12:53.710 --> 0:12:56.650 up a thousand, and then they retracted 20 minutes later 0:12:56.650 --> 0:13:00.819 saying that that wasn't an official tweet. And 90 million 0:13:00.820 --> 0:13:04.300 in Bitcoin were liquidated. Yeah. We're supposed to trust that 0:13:04.300 --> 0:13:08.410 these people really not only are interested in protecting us, 0:13:08.410 --> 0:13:09.790 but are capable. 0:13:10.179 --> 0:13:14.200 Well that that that was uh, there's a federal investigation 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:21.450 into that, as you can imagine. And, um. Congressional leadership, uh, 0:13:21.450 --> 0:13:26.280 sent sent letters to the FCC the same day saying, 0:13:26.460 --> 0:13:32.190 what's going on here? And, oh, by the way, you demand, uh, 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:39.329 a great cybersecurity from the list of companies who whose stocks, uh, uh, 0:13:39.330 --> 0:13:43.530 you oversee, whose stock trading you oversee. But you can't 0:13:43.530 --> 0:13:49.120 do it yourself. So, um. It. I mean, I don't 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:50.830 know what happened there yet. I don't think any of 0:13:50.830 --> 0:13:57.040 us know yet. It's under investigation. But you're right, it did, cause. 0:13:57.710 --> 0:14:03.500 Damage in the market because people transacted based on bad 0:14:03.500 --> 0:14:07.880 information that, it turns out, didn't really come from the SEC, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:09.470 but it sure looked like it had. 0:14:10.429 --> 0:14:12.860 Mm. So let me ask this. So how do you 0:14:12.860 --> 0:14:17.390 think that these um the Bitcoin ETF. How do you 0:14:17.390 --> 0:14:20.630 think that that it's going to be overall considering that 0:14:20.630 --> 0:14:24.230 you know Satoshi Nakamoto. He doesn't he doesn't really want 0:14:24.230 --> 0:14:27.980 more intermediary involvement from big you know big thing. So 0:14:28.700 --> 0:14:31.640 it's like a I don't know it's a paradox. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:38.210 It is. Uh, you're spot on, correct. Travis. I mean, uh. 0:14:39.500 --> 0:14:46.640 It's ironic that, uh, the, uh, this product which is 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.560 going to lead, is leading, I believe, into deeper retail, uh, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:59.610 investment in the asset. Is, uh, involves all these centralized institutions. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.840 I mean, Satoshi's idea was peer to peer. You know, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:08.520 it was, you know, I sell Bitcoin to you. You 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.540 sell it to Joel using our, you know, our handheld 0:15:12.540 --> 0:15:18.840 devices and, you know, without any custodian other than ourselves 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:27.570 and certainly without any, uh, exchange or investment bank or 0:15:27.570 --> 0:15:32.760 brokerage fee firm charging a commission, by the way. Uh, so, yeah, 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.640 I guess I need to own a ledger or a 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.730 trazer or something like that. And I can buy one 0:15:38.730 --> 0:15:41.880 for 50 bucks, a hundred bucks to do it. But 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.240 I shouldn't have to pay, you know, an an AUM 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.930 fee to do that. So. So that was his idea, right. 0:15:48.930 --> 0:15:52.380 And that but that's not where we are now. And 0:15:52.380 --> 0:15:55.800 the reason we are now is because it's so incredibly 0:15:55.800 --> 0:16:03.030 convenient to use a stock broker. And for the stock 0:16:03.030 --> 0:16:07.290 broker to be, uh, a member of a stock exchange 0:16:07.290 --> 0:16:11.750 where the shares trade. And oh, by the way, notice 0:16:11.750 --> 0:16:14.990 this carefully. The SEC is very involved in all of that. 0:16:15.690 --> 0:16:21.600 So part of the Satoshi's vision was decentralised, not just 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:27.720 away from the banking industry, but also away from the government. Mm. And, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.600 and so some people look at this and they say, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.500 you know, this is a Trojan horse. Uh, Chair Gensler 0:16:34.500 --> 0:16:40.020 has brought us this slew of ETFs, and I'm not 0:16:40.020 --> 0:16:43.110 sure he really wanted to, but the D.C. Circuit Court 0:16:43.110 --> 0:16:45.900 of Appeals basically said you kind of sort of need 0:16:45.900 --> 0:16:46.920 to do this. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:48.990 Maybe part of the Trojan horse, though, to make it 0:16:48.990 --> 0:16:51.000 seem like you don't really want to do this. We 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.370 don't really we don't want to do this. Right? 0:16:54.210 --> 0:16:58.890 Right. But but notice the SEC is going to regulate 0:16:58.890 --> 0:17:03.750 these products. That's certainly the case. So I mean he 0:17:03.750 --> 0:17:09.620 wanted the power to regulate crypto assets. Uh, from Congress. 0:17:09.619 --> 0:17:11.870 They never gave it to him. I mean, I think 0:17:11.869 --> 0:17:16.010 he claims it was given to him in 1934. But, 0:17:16.250 --> 0:17:18.679 you know, the reason Congress, uh, kind of sort of 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:23.959 disagrees with that. So, um, he didn't hasn't gotten it 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.030 that way. They've been fighting it out in the courts. 0:17:26.030 --> 0:17:30.290 And then meanwhile they introduced these products. And there he is, 0:17:30.470 --> 0:17:38.960 I should say. There they are. The agency is. Regulating? Um, probably. Well, 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.060 I don't know how big this is going to get, 0:17:41.060 --> 0:17:44.120 but this is a big financial product that a lot 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.890 of retail and investors are coming into, and that's all 0:17:48.890 --> 0:17:52.459 SEC regulated. And that may well be for the, you know, 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.090 the good that may be the best result I don't know. 0:17:56.150 --> 0:17:59.090 So not necessarily regulating crypto per se. They're right. No 0:17:59.090 --> 0:18:01.550 they're not they're not. Yes. Right. So it's like they're. 0:18:01.550 --> 0:18:02.090 Regulating. 0:18:02.150 --> 0:18:03.530 Some separation of state right. 0:18:03.530 --> 0:18:07.129 That's right. They regulate the share trading and they regulate the, 0:18:07.430 --> 0:18:13.820 the sponsors who who bring these products. Um, I mean, 0:18:13.820 --> 0:18:16.370 the exchanges do that too, by the way. I mean, 0:18:16.369 --> 0:18:19.250 it's not only the SEC, there's some self regulation by 0:18:19.250 --> 0:18:23.060 the exchanges and there's self regulation by the brokerage community, 0:18:23.060 --> 0:18:25.760 because the brokers and the investment banks who buy and 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.520 sell this, they all have supervision. They all have, uh, 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:34.550 regulatory responsibilities. So, uh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, 0:18:34.550 --> 0:18:38.780 but it is not what Satoshi had in mind. How's that? 0:18:38.869 --> 0:18:39.890 An ultimately not. 0:18:39.890 --> 0:18:42.020 Decentralized. It's not decentralized. 0:18:42.260 --> 0:18:46.580 We we always encourage people to use exchanges as exchanges 0:18:46.580 --> 0:18:48.679 and then take your take it off, put it in 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.790 a ledger or Trezor. This is like one step beyond that. 0:18:52.790 --> 0:18:56.210 You know, on an exchange, at least you have access 0:18:56.210 --> 0:18:59.929 to the wallet. But they're custodial here. You're not actually 0:18:59.930 --> 0:19:06.410 owning Bitcoin. You can't send somebody bitcoin if you're the ETF. 0:19:06.590 --> 0:19:09.980 That's exactly right. You own shares in a trust that 0:19:09.980 --> 0:19:14.960 holds bitcoin. You do not own bitcoin directly. You have. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.340 The economics of Bitcoin ownership for the most part. I mean, 0:19:19.340 --> 0:19:24.220 Bitcoin doesn't, um. Bitcoin. You know there are no staking 0:19:24.220 --> 0:19:27.430 fees for Bitcoin. It doesn't pay interest. But if there 0:19:27.430 --> 0:19:31.030 were any distributions you would not get that. Um, but 0:19:31.030 --> 0:19:33.460 it doesn't matter because they don't have it anyway. Uh 0:19:33.460 --> 0:19:39.460 Bitcoin doesn't have it anyway. Um, but uh, but you're right, 0:19:39.460 --> 0:19:44.290 you have claim against the trust. You do not own bitcoin. 0:19:44.290 --> 0:19:46.720 And oh by the way you can do it both ways. 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.950 I mean there's there's no law that says having bought 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:57.400 shares in one of these ETFs you cannot buy Bitcoin 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.119 in the cash market. You certainly can. You can certainly 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:07.270 go to the crypto exchanges and become customers there. Yes 0:20:07.270 --> 0:20:09.850 they're being sued. I'm not going to get into that. 0:20:10.030 --> 0:20:15.550 But um, they're certainly still very much in business. Um, 0:20:15.550 --> 0:20:18.790 and uh, you know, one of them is, uh, a 0:20:18.790 --> 0:20:23.200 custodian for about, you know, 8 or 10 of these products. 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.470 So they're making money that way, too, and nothing wrong 0:20:26.470 --> 0:20:31.030 with that. But that, that, that, um, uh, you can 0:20:31.030 --> 0:20:34.030 own you can own Bitcoin in several different ways. This 0:20:34.030 --> 0:20:37.540 is an additional option. And by the way, you can 0:20:37.540 --> 0:20:40.450 also say it's not for me. I don't want it. 0:20:40.450 --> 0:20:43.899 You know, I uh, I, you know, I, I, I, 0:20:43.900 --> 0:20:46.660 I think like Warren Buffett I think it's worthless. It 0:20:46.660 --> 0:20:50.200 has no value, you know, or the chairman of Chase, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:56.949 Jamie Diamond, is worthless. It says no value. Um, and, um, uh, 0:20:56.950 --> 0:21:02.320 you know, there's there's no mandatory investments in America. You know, 0:21:02.470 --> 0:21:05.500 you it can be an all cash all day long, 0:21:05.500 --> 0:21:06.400 if that's what you want. 0:21:06.460 --> 0:21:08.530 So this mine, it seems to me it might make 0:21:08.530 --> 0:21:12.580 more people aware of crypto realizing. Oh, yes, an entry 0:21:12.580 --> 0:21:16.240 point into it. It's it's finally been validated in the 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.240 eye of the SEC. So now we're going to be 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:20.889 more well, I want to ask this because I was 0:21:20.890 --> 0:21:22.030 trying to you might've heard me. 0:21:22.270 --> 0:21:25.210 I think you're right about that, Travis. I think it will. 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:29.560 It's it's I don't mean to give it a bad connotation, 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.600 but it's kind of like a gateway drug. You know, 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.570 if you buy some shares of this, that may lead 0:21:34.570 --> 0:21:36.459 to other involvement in the crypto in. 0:21:36.460 --> 0:21:38.470 This coin right here, man, I got some. Yeah. 0:21:38.740 --> 0:21:40.090 He's mainlining it. 0:21:40.090 --> 0:21:43.210 Mainline. Yes I want to ask about this. So you 0:21:43.210 --> 0:21:45.040 know I don't know if you know what the numbers are. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.320 I was over here frantically typing to try to figure 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.470 it out. So I know that the global real estate 0:21:50.470 --> 0:21:56.290 market is maybe somewhere 3 to $400 trillion, right? Stock markets. 0:21:56.290 --> 0:21:58.690 The numbers that I'm finding is somewhere last year around 0:21:58.690 --> 0:22:03.250 100 to $200 trillion. So let's just say for the 0:22:03.250 --> 0:22:07.120 sake of it all, it's $500 trillion are in those assets. 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.460 So are they saying 1% of that, which would be 0:22:09.460 --> 0:22:13.659 5 trillion should go into Bitcoin. And if that's the case, 0:22:13.660 --> 0:22:17.949 then Bitcoin is is worth freaking $250,000. 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:25.719 There's, there's saying, uh, that 1% of your portfolio. Right. 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.390 So if everybody's got 1% of their portfolio. 0:22:28.570 --> 0:22:32.170 Right, right, right. But but not for all retail investors, 0:22:32.170 --> 0:22:37.600 for those for whom it's suitable. Okay. Uh, and and that's, 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:43.900 you know, and that's not everyone. Um, uh, it's well 0:22:43.900 --> 0:22:49.480 beyond the accredited investor category, but, you know, it's probably 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:55.750 not suitable for everyone. And, uh, you know, 1 to 5% 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.420 is a is a is a rule of thumb that 0:22:58.420 --> 0:23:01.180 you're starting to hear. I think 5% is pretty high, 0:23:01.180 --> 0:23:05.409 but that's but that's just that's just me. Oh, unless, 0:23:05.410 --> 0:23:12.010 by the way, you're a professional trader or you consider 0:23:12.010 --> 0:23:16.960 yourself very sophisticated regarding crypto assets, and there are many 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:24.280 such people and I have, um. Yeah. So, uh, I 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:29.229 think for a novice 1 to 5% and probably on 0:23:29.230 --> 0:23:32.740 the low end of that makes more sense. But but, uh, 0:23:33.609 --> 0:23:38.990 but if you're a fan and you follow this carefully. Um, 0:23:40.130 --> 0:23:41.960 and if you do, by the way, you're probably not 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:45.470 just interested in Bitcoin exchange traded funds. You're probably all 0:23:45.470 --> 0:23:50.390 over the crypto sphere, right? Um, and those are not 0:23:50.390 --> 0:23:53.450 exchange traded funds yet. You can't even get an Eath 0:23:53.450 --> 0:23:58.100 ETF yet. Um, but I suspect that'll come soon. 0:23:58.310 --> 0:24:01.430 Well, whatever we think of Gary Gensler, fortunately, there are 0:24:01.430 --> 0:24:04.820 some voices in the SEC that are voices of reason. 0:24:04.820 --> 0:24:07.910 One of them is a crypto mom, Hester Pierce, former 0:24:07.910 --> 0:24:13.850 guest on this show. And she has been spot on about, uh, crypto, uh, 0:24:13.850 --> 0:24:18.350 for the long haul here. And, uh, you've suggested, I think, 0:24:18.350 --> 0:24:21.740 in some of the writings that she should be the, uh, 0:24:21.740 --> 0:24:26.540 chair of the SEC, uh, in any administration, but especially 0:24:26.540 --> 0:24:27.770 in a Republican administration. 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:32.810 Well, yeah, I think so. I don't think, um. You 0:24:32.810 --> 0:24:35.840 know I'm I'm not in Washington insider but I don't 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.600 think the Biden administration is likely to pick or they 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:42.290 like Gary Gensler and and the direction he is going. 0:24:42.650 --> 0:24:46.190 Well, they also like SBF and FDX donate. 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.450 I didn't say they don't make errors. Jeffrey Epstein and 0:24:50.450 --> 0:24:55.250 I didn't say they don't make errors. Uh, yeah. You know, 0:24:55.820 --> 0:24:59.210 I love Commissioner Peirce. I think if she didn't exist, 0:24:59.210 --> 0:25:01.879 we'd have to invent her. I think no one in 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:06.590 government understands the digital assets industry better than she does. 0:25:06.590 --> 0:25:10.730 No one cares more about the limitations on federal power 0:25:10.730 --> 0:25:14.120 than she does. And, you know, she's been in that 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:16.640 job for six years. She's been right about it from 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.780 the start. You see this very clearly in her frequent 0:25:20.780 --> 0:25:26.930 dissents from SEC attempts to expand its jurisdiction by making 0:25:26.930 --> 0:25:31.879 unsupportable claims that are ultimately fought about in court and 0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:36.550 rebuffed by the courts. The courts have been. Pushing back 0:25:36.550 --> 0:25:41.379 against the SEC's claims. Um, you see it most obviously 0:25:41.380 --> 0:25:45.970 in her dissents to the SEC's decisions to reject Bitcoin 0:25:45.970 --> 0:25:51.460 ETF applications. Um, including one in which I was involved 0:25:51.460 --> 0:25:55.990 as counsel to the applicant. Um, but you need to 0:25:55.990 --> 0:25:58.480 be living under a rock not to see and hear 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.350 her presence felt across the broad expanse of the SEC's 0:26:02.350 --> 0:26:06.400 war on crypto that Congress never declared. The SEC declared it. 0:26:07.230 --> 0:26:10.109 And and not just on crypto. That's what this show 0:26:10.109 --> 0:26:14.550 is about. But she, uh, you know, the SEC is 0:26:14.550 --> 0:26:19.560 also undertaking to regulate commerce through climate change disclosure rulemaking, 0:26:20.130 --> 0:26:25.590 which is what, uh, progressive politicians want to see. But 0:26:25.590 --> 0:26:30.180 as far beyond the SEC statutory mandate to protect investors, 0:26:30.180 --> 0:26:35.369 she has been critical of that initiative, too. Like I said, 0:26:35.369 --> 0:26:41.790 she is very focused on the limitations on federal power. Uh, 0:26:41.790 --> 0:26:47.580 that the agencies have in the law is a national treasure. 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:51.540 And in a in a Republican administration, she ought to 0:26:51.540 --> 0:26:54.750 be chairman. And, uh, by the way, that's not an 0:26:54.750 --> 0:26:56.669 endorsement of any particular candidate. 0:26:56.700 --> 0:26:58.620 No, no, that's an endorsement that we're taking. 0:26:59.369 --> 0:27:03.090 No, I mean, I it's an endorsement of her. Okay, 0:27:03.090 --> 0:27:12.900 but I'm not endorsing anyone for president. Okay. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, uh, 0:27:12.900 --> 0:27:16.830 you know, uh, I'm not going there, but it would 0:27:16.830 --> 0:27:20.129 be one benefit of a change of administration in a 0:27:20.130 --> 0:27:23.219 libertarian direction. I am a libertarian. I'll say that much. 0:27:23.580 --> 0:27:28.490 And she is too, so I, uh. Uh, you know, 0:27:28.490 --> 0:27:30.920 can't say enough good things about her. And we would 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:35.980 this industry would be. Hurt if she were not in 0:27:35.980 --> 0:27:39.670 the job she's doing now. It's got to be tough 0:27:39.670 --> 0:27:43.600 to be always in the minority on these things. Almost always, 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:48.470 almost always. The chairman voted with her this time. But, um. 0:27:49.460 --> 0:27:52.580 I'm awfully glad that she is continued in that role. 0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:55.109 I want to ask. I want to ask you something 0:27:55.109 --> 0:27:57.630 about this, because I did some research on some stuff 0:27:57.630 --> 0:28:01.590 earlier today, and it was talking about the tokenization of 0:28:01.590 --> 0:28:06.810 other assets. Right. You start seeing more tokenization of assets. 0:28:06.810 --> 0:28:09.810 And it was one of the articles that Joel deleted. 0:28:09.810 --> 0:28:11.850 But I thought it was interesting because there's some cool 0:28:11.850 --> 0:28:14.129 stuff that's going on with these things. And it's like 0:28:14.130 --> 0:28:18.450 I've always thought like security traded tokens, right? Like instead 0:28:18.450 --> 0:28:20.729 of stocks, like more of these things. Seems like they're 0:28:20.730 --> 0:28:23.400 going to be tokenized over time. And it seems like 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:26.010 that this is one of those first steps. The ETF 0:28:26.010 --> 0:28:29.399 is maybe one of the more official first steps into 0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:32.520 moving more towards tokenization of more assets. 0:28:32.970 --> 0:28:36.060 I think that's right. And I think that's what, uh, 0:28:36.869 --> 0:28:43.560 institutional investors and what the investment banks think as well. Um, 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:47.490 they're talking about securities tokens. They're talking about, you know, 0:28:47.940 --> 0:28:54.870 for example, uh, it's just the digitization of the financial instrument. So, 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:58.500 I mean, the classic example, the classic example is, is 0:28:58.500 --> 0:29:01.290 real estate, you know, putting, you know, buying and selling 0:29:01.290 --> 0:29:05.790 real estate in digital format, uh, or ownership interest in 0:29:05.790 --> 0:29:10.260 real estate in digital format, much more liquid than the 0:29:10.260 --> 0:29:14.370 classic way of doing it all on paper, um, much 0:29:14.370 --> 0:29:19.140 more economical, much quicker to trade and settle, for example. 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:21.540 But you can do this with common stocks too. You 0:29:21.540 --> 0:29:24.120 can do it with bonds. There have been tokenized bond 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:28.380 offerings in Europe. Um, and I expect those to come 0:29:28.380 --> 0:29:33.990 to America soon. Uh, uh, as well. It's part of. 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:39.660 I mean, this is internet money, right? So part of 0:29:39.660 --> 0:29:46.410 internet money includes tokenized stock and tokenized bonds, um, which 0:29:46.410 --> 0:29:50.100 the SEC would regulate because those are securities. No one 0:29:50.100 --> 0:29:53.640 doubts that stocks and bonds are securities. No one fights 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:58.740 over that. We fight over crypto assets because many of 0:29:58.740 --> 0:30:02.760 them look more like commodities and securities to to us. Mhm. 0:30:02.970 --> 0:30:04.080 But to some of us. 0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:05.460 So how far behind. 0:30:06.180 --> 0:30:11.010 It's actually magical internet mining. 0:30:12.330 --> 0:30:16.020 So how far behind are we then on uh Ethereum ETFs. 0:30:16.020 --> 0:30:19.980 Because certainly uh Ethereum is price is held perhaps on 0:30:19.980 --> 0:30:22.890 the same rumor that it's next. 0:30:24.020 --> 0:30:28.820 Uh, yes. There's at least one application pending that I 0:30:28.820 --> 0:30:32.780 think comes due in May. If I'm not wrong. It's 0:30:32.780 --> 0:30:35.480 not mine. It's not my client. I'd love to do 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:40.280 one of these, but I haven't started on one yet, and. And, um. 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:45.570 I think it's although the chair Gensler said, look, don't 0:30:45.570 --> 0:30:48.780 think that approving the Bitcoin fund means we're going to 0:30:48.780 --> 0:30:53.190 approve anything else. He he did say that, but I 0:30:53.190 --> 0:30:55.590 think they're going to be driven to do it because 0:30:55.590 --> 0:31:00.120 the same reasoning that applies to the Bitcoin fund probably 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:03.990 applies to to the ETH funds as well. There are 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:09.570 futures markets that are regulated by the CFTC and the 0:31:09.570 --> 0:31:11.520 CME and other exchanges. 0:31:11.790 --> 0:31:16.050 Well, it's necessarily because, you know, crypto according to Gary, uh, 0:31:16.050 --> 0:31:19.140 you know, there's all kinds of, uh, criminal enterprises that 0:31:19.140 --> 0:31:22.800 are funded by. Yeah. And that never happens with, with 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.370 cash or, you know, other that just that doesn't happen 0:31:26.370 --> 0:31:27.240 at all. Yeah. 0:31:27.270 --> 0:31:33.450 Yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, $100 bills, 0:31:33.450 --> 0:31:35.220 you know, I don't know how many of them have 0:31:35.220 --> 0:31:37.470 traces of cocaine, but it's a very high point. 0:31:37.470 --> 0:31:39.300 Oh my God. I saw a statistic on that the 0:31:39.300 --> 0:31:40.410 other day. And I was like. 0:31:40.770 --> 0:31:43.710 And I, and I take I take that personally because 0:31:43.710 --> 0:31:50.010 I'm a descendant of Ben Franklin, but uh, but uh, but, uh, uh, look, 0:31:50.010 --> 0:31:52.950 I don't mean to make light of the criminal use 0:31:52.950 --> 0:31:55.740 of crypto assets. 0:31:55.740 --> 0:31:58.230 We'll do that for you. We'll we'll. 0:31:58.230 --> 0:32:01.830 Hear. But but notice this. It's almost always bitcoin. No 0:32:01.830 --> 0:32:06.240 one uses ether that way. And uh, so if you're 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:12.480 concerned about that and and you're right to be somewhat 0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:18.540 concerned about it. Um it's really. Probably not a big 0:32:18.540 --> 0:32:23.100 deal for ether. Um, and it is something that Gensler 0:32:23.100 --> 0:32:25.650 mentioned in his separate statement. He said, you know, these 0:32:25.740 --> 0:32:28.230 it's these are not this is not like oil. It's 0:32:28.230 --> 0:32:31.620 not like precious metals or real uses for that. The 0:32:31.620 --> 0:32:34.650 real use is for Bitcoin. He says, you know, our, 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:41.460 our criminal uses, which is an overstatement of, of the 0:32:41.460 --> 0:32:43.950 I mean, I own Bitcoin and I'm not a criminal 0:32:44.190 --> 0:32:47.730 so I'm just a hodler, right. So there are plenty 0:32:47.730 --> 0:32:53.800 of hodlers out there. Uh, who don't do, uh, anything 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:57.430 inappropriate with their Bitcoin holdings. Holdings? 0:32:57.940 --> 0:32:59.560 That's good. I just want to say this. So I 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.080 asked grok. Joel, I asked grok, I said, what percentage 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:04.810 of paper money has traces of cocaine on it, and 0:33:04.810 --> 0:33:06.910 it says it's been found. Studies have shown that up 0:33:06.910 --> 0:33:10.660 to 90% of banknotes in circulation in the US have 0:33:10.660 --> 0:33:14.290 found traces of cocaine. That's a pretty high number. Imagine 0:33:14.290 --> 0:33:16.900 all these bills passing around tiny amounts of the white stuff. 0:33:16.900 --> 0:33:19.810 It's like a never ending party for your wallet. 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:24.250 Right? So I guess we're supposed to shut down all 0:33:24.250 --> 0:33:27.760 the banks because they traffic in dollar bills, right? 0:33:27.850 --> 0:33:30.160 You stick those in a counter, and those little traces 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:32.800 of powder gets all over everything, right? 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:36.100 I mean, again, that's making light of a serious subject. 0:33:36.100 --> 0:33:38.410 There are things you can do with crypto assets you 0:33:38.410 --> 0:33:41.320 cannot do with money. For example, you can send it 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:46.120 very far, very fast to an account that is, if 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:54.110 not anonymous, is at least pseudonymous. And now you can 0:33:54.110 --> 0:33:59.209 be found, though. Um. Uh, I mean, there are several 0:33:59.210 --> 0:34:04.700 companies that are very, very good at tracking down, uh, uh, 0:34:04.700 --> 0:34:10.100 the proceeds of, uh, of ransomware. Uh, very, very good 0:34:10.100 --> 0:34:17.510 at it. The government itself is quite good at it. Uh, so, uh, yeah, 0:34:17.510 --> 0:34:20.210 the crime is committed, but you may not get away 0:34:20.210 --> 0:34:22.550 with it. And, uh. 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:26.180 Around this. So you were talking about, you know, potentially 0:34:26.180 --> 0:34:29.540 an Ethereum ETF. Does that mean that it's quite possible 0:34:29.540 --> 0:34:32.330 down the road we could be having a Binance ETF. 0:34:32.330 --> 0:34:34.969 There could be a Solana ETF polka dot ETF. 0:34:35.510 --> 0:34:40.460 I absolutely like yes I think it's quite possible that 0:34:40.460 --> 0:34:44.870 they if you take the top 20 tokens or so, uh, 0:34:44.870 --> 0:34:48.529 and you and you omit the stablecoins because, you know, 0:34:48.530 --> 0:34:55.130 why would you make an ETF out of that then? Um. Then, uh, 0:34:55.130 --> 0:35:00.590 several of those could be could come. Um, the it helps. 0:35:00.590 --> 0:35:03.830 It might even be necessary under current law, but it 0:35:03.830 --> 0:35:07.310 would certainly help if they already traded in a regulated 0:35:07.310 --> 0:35:10.220 futures market. And I think the only two for that 0:35:10.219 --> 0:35:14.600 are Bitcoin and ether moment. But there are futures markets 0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:20.000 that are, uh, you know, away from the regulated agencies, 0:35:20.570 --> 0:35:23.839 away from the regulators as well. And there are foreign 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:32.149 exchanges that that count. Um, so I wouldn't say that's impossible. Uh, 0:35:32.150 --> 0:35:36.620 there could also be, uh, a fund that holds multiple coins, 0:35:36.830 --> 0:35:42.319 you know, some kind of diversified portfolio, if you will, of, uh, 0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:43.250 crypto assets. 0:35:43.610 --> 0:35:44.480 Tokens. That's. Yeah. 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:45.620 Travel tokens. 0:35:45.739 --> 0:35:49.069 Why not an NFT f right? 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.580 So, uh, and I know of at least one out 0:35:52.580 --> 0:35:56.630 there now, actually. Um, and so I don't think it 0:35:56.630 --> 0:36:01.190 trades on a major exchange yet, but it certainly trades over-the-counter. Um, 0:36:01.190 --> 0:36:06.049 so that could come to, um. Uh, the other thing 0:36:06.050 --> 0:36:13.009 we'll see is just more fund development, private funds, you know, um, uh, 0:36:13.070 --> 0:36:16.100 I think we'll see more private funds and different kinds 0:36:16.100 --> 0:36:23.450 of private funds because of, because of this thawing, uh, 0:36:23.450 --> 0:36:27.770 by the SEC and the fund area. And the SEC 0:36:28.310 --> 0:36:31.880 actually doesn't regulate private funds very much. Uh, it doesn't 0:36:31.880 --> 0:36:36.110 have the authority to very much, uh, so that you 0:36:36.110 --> 0:36:38.300 can be more creative there. Um. 0:36:39.730 --> 0:36:42.730 Well, I think we have a better understanding of what's 0:36:42.730 --> 0:36:46.060 going on now, Patrick, thanks to you, I want to, uh. Uh, 0:36:46.060 --> 0:36:49.840 as we wrap up here, ask you to prognosticate just 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:52.660 a little bit. I know this is not financial advice. 0:36:52.660 --> 0:36:55.660 We have the, uh, you know, these ETFs are out there. Now, 0:36:55.660 --> 0:36:58.990 the Bitcoin halving is upon us in April, right? Uh, 0:36:58.989 --> 0:37:00.760 so I'm going to ask you a question. We ask 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.340 many guests and of course not holding you to it, 0:37:03.340 --> 0:37:06.970 but what do you think are all time high? If 0:37:06.969 --> 0:37:08.980 you are going to be a guessing man is going 0:37:08.980 --> 0:37:11.410 to be on this, uh, bull run. 0:37:12.340 --> 0:37:13.750 On this bull run. Yeah. 0:37:13.750 --> 0:37:18.400 24 to 25, 2024 to 2025. What do you think? 0:37:19.510 --> 0:37:21.220 I don't have a view on that. I will not 0:37:21.219 --> 0:37:25.239 be surprised if it tests the all time high and. 0:37:26.410 --> 0:37:31.760 I don't think about it much because. But I view 0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:36.020 Bitcoin mainly as insurance rather than an investment. I view 0:37:36.020 --> 0:37:39.800 it as if prices get very, very high in Bitcoin. 0:37:40.190 --> 0:37:45.049 That means something terrible has happened. Probably that means that 0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:45.680 what's very. 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:47.509 Very high, I mean. 0:37:47.510 --> 0:37:54.100 Well, you know, it's. $200,000 or more. You know, $1 million, 0:37:54.370 --> 0:37:59.259 if that. If that happens. That means we have fiscal 0:37:59.260 --> 0:38:03.580 and monetary chaos in the United States. In my view, 0:38:03.580 --> 0:38:06.760 that's what it means. And I don't want that to happen. Right. 0:38:07.690 --> 0:38:11.200 Because I have a lot of dollars denominated investments. 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:13.540 Yeah, I was I was watching a guy. He was 0:38:13.540 --> 0:38:17.590 talking about the the overall price of Bitcoin. He was like, dude, 0:38:17.590 --> 0:38:20.259 you know, if you're talking about the total value of gold, 0:38:20.260 --> 0:38:23.350 you know, it's trillions five, seven, ten. I don't know 0:38:23.350 --> 0:38:26.260 what the number was because Bitcoin's like at the time 0:38:26.260 --> 0:38:29.770 Bitcoin was worth half half a trillion. He was like 0:38:29.770 --> 0:38:32.230 this could go easily to 3 to 5 trillion. I 0:38:32.230 --> 0:38:34.359 mean if you start getting the right mechanisms in it, 0:38:34.390 --> 0:38:35.200 that's true. 0:38:35.590 --> 0:38:38.859 I think that's right. I think that's like around 200,000. 0:38:39.070 --> 0:38:43.660 That's what happened with exchange traded funds generally I, I, 0:38:44.320 --> 0:38:46.810 I was on teams that invented some of the earlier 0:38:46.810 --> 0:38:50.080 exchange traded funds. And at the time everyone said these 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:53.470 are ridiculous. They're never going to get any traction against 0:38:53.469 --> 0:38:56.319 mutual funds. Why would anyone buy an exchange rate? But 0:38:56.320 --> 0:39:00.279 now everyone owns exchange traded funds. And that was only 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:06.669 1520 years ago. So yes, 3 trillion wouldn't surprise me 0:39:06.670 --> 0:39:11.080 in the least. We were at 3 trillion, uh, before 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:16.180 Sam happened. Okay. Uh, we were at 3 trillion, so 0:39:16.180 --> 0:39:20.470 that wouldn't surprise me. Um, but if it goes up 0:39:20.469 --> 0:39:26.020 by several magnitudes, that's because of fiscal irresponsibility and because 0:39:26.020 --> 0:39:28.900 the United States has become a banana republic. And I 0:39:28.900 --> 0:39:30.310 don't want that to happen. 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:34.600 Well, we've certainly seen signs of it. Uh, yes. And 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:37.840 I think that's, uh, cause for concern for everybody. I 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:39.759 do want to ask you this. You were with the 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:43.000 SEC during the Reagan Bush. Did you have any interactions 0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:44.380 with President Reagan? 0:39:46.510 --> 0:39:52.630 One time as he was leaving office. Uh huh. Uh, 0:39:52.630 --> 0:39:57.610 I remember it vividly. I was just in an audience, 0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:00.250 and we waved back and forth, and I saw him, 0:40:00.250 --> 0:40:03.640 and I was never in the white House. And, you know, 0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:08.440 I wish I'd had that opportunity, but I viewed myself as. 0:40:09.260 --> 0:40:11.420 You know, I was a young lawyer in an important 0:40:11.420 --> 0:40:14.930 regulatory agency, but I worked directly for a man who 0:40:14.930 --> 0:40:18.110 was appointed by President Reagan. But I wasn't appointed by 0:40:18.110 --> 0:40:18.740 him myself. 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:20.750 One degree of separation. 0:40:20.900 --> 0:40:24.200 One degree of several. But I had just in. Immense 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:28.609 respect for him, and, uh. And, uh, I miss him. 0:40:29.690 --> 0:40:32.540 Where, uh uh, where should people stalk you? What website 0:40:32.540 --> 0:40:33.080 or social? 0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:37.370 Oh. Oh, well, on Twitter, uh, or X, I'm at 0:40:37.370 --> 0:40:41.720 Doherty lawyer. That's a at d a u g h 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:46.430 e r t y lawyer. Uh, but I'm also on LinkedIn. 0:40:46.430 --> 0:40:49.700 I'm the Patrick Doherty in Chicago. If you go to 0:40:49.700 --> 0:40:54.350 Patrick Doherty in Chicago and maybe you type in Cornell, 0:40:54.350 --> 0:40:57.920 something like that, because I teach at Cornell Law School. Uh, 0:40:58.010 --> 0:41:00.290 I post a lot of material there, actually. 0:41:00.590 --> 0:41:03.350 Excellent. Well, we will, uh, we'll definitely link to that. 0:41:03.380 --> 0:41:05.360 We appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:07.430 It's been a very enlightening. 0:41:07.730 --> 0:41:12.710 Thanks for having me, guys. This is an important development. And, uh, so, um, 0:41:13.219 --> 0:41:15.020 you know, I'm happy to spend the time with you. 0:41:16.910 --> 0:41:19.040 Thank you so much to Patrick Doherty. And you can 0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:23.060 follow him on the Twitter x at Doherty Lawyer. Make 0:41:23.060 --> 0:41:25.879 sure to connect with him. Really smart dude, doing some 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:29.719 interesting things and teaching the youngins over there at Cornell 0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:33.710 Law School all about the digital assets. And we saw, 0:41:33.710 --> 0:41:37.010 you know, Bitcoin and the whole crypto market has gone down. 0:41:37.010 --> 0:41:41.240 It's like $1.6 trillion right now, up from down from 0:41:41.239 --> 0:41:44.900 1.8 something. So, you know, it looks like that ETF 0:41:44.900 --> 0:41:49.009 was actually something where oh sell the news. And um, 0:41:49.010 --> 0:41:52.219 but uh that's the way it goes. The having is 0:41:52.219 --> 0:41:54.230 coming up folks. We're going to be seeing that in 0:41:54.230 --> 0:41:57.680 early May. So a lot of great stuff happening. And 0:41:57.680 --> 0:42:00.590 it's just calm before the storm. Kind of seems to me. 0:42:00.620 --> 0:42:05.180 You have to be in the know as the having approaches. 0:42:05.180 --> 0:42:08.420 And uh, for those of you watching the video version 0:42:08.420 --> 0:42:10.790 of the show, you'll be able to follow along with 0:42:10.790 --> 0:42:14.210 the visuals here. The crypto bull dragons are gone here 0:42:14.210 --> 0:42:16.790 they all are. Uh, and each one is a one 0:42:16.790 --> 0:42:19.910 of one that has an owner. Might be bulls Aldrin. 0:42:19.910 --> 0:42:22.610 It might be the bull market baron. It could be 0:42:22.610 --> 0:42:26.870 opulent onyx. They are all in the diamond hands of 0:42:26.870 --> 0:42:30.169 24 people. And, uh, each one of you is going 0:42:30.170 --> 0:42:33.650 to receive an airdrop of this NFT. 0:42:33.830 --> 0:42:36.770 Prospero Draconis, this is. 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:40.100 What is this guy? Look at him. He's just golden 0:42:40.100 --> 0:42:41.630 bitcoins everywhere. 0:42:41.989 --> 0:42:44.930 So the whole thought of this is, you know, let's 0:42:44.930 --> 0:42:48.410 create some fun amulet stuff of power for this next 0:42:48.410 --> 0:42:50.570 bull run. Right. This is the year of the Dragon. 0:42:50.570 --> 0:42:52.489 It's the crypto bull run is up here for the 0:42:52.489 --> 0:42:56.120 next 18 months or so in theory. And so hopefully, 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:59.870 if you possess this, then, uh, the the crypto gods 0:42:59.870 --> 0:43:01.520 will shine down upon thee. 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.310 So along with this NFT that we're going to drop 0:43:04.310 --> 0:43:08.420 to the 24 holders, uh, when you click on your NFT, 0:43:08.420 --> 0:43:12.200 if you are a holder, you'll see a place in there, uh, 0:43:12.200 --> 0:43:14.120 which I can't from this account because this is the 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:16.910 master account. If you hold it, then you will be 0:43:16.910 --> 0:43:20.300 able to see a link that says Bonus content. And 0:43:20.300 --> 0:43:24.110 that bonus content is only viewable through Bad Crypto Dot 0:43:24.110 --> 0:43:27.890 uncut network. That's going to give you a link to 0:43:27.890 --> 0:43:30.410 the zoom. When are we doing the zoom? It's going 0:43:30.410 --> 0:43:32.600 to happen at Travis came up with this and it 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:36.170 makes perfect sense. Since it's 2024, it's going to happen 0:43:36.170 --> 0:43:42.859 on two for 2024. February 4th, 2024. That is a Sunday. 0:43:42.860 --> 0:43:47.930 What time? 2 to 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time makes 0:43:47.930 --> 0:43:50.750 perfect sense, except that I'm Atlantic Standard Time and it's 0:43:50.750 --> 0:43:53.239 3 to 5 for me. Uh, and Travis. 0:43:53.270 --> 0:43:54.060 Is it's 1 to. 0:43:54.060 --> 0:43:56.630 3 for 1 to 3, but it makes for a 0:43:56.630 --> 0:44:00.950 great copy. So on February 4th, two for 2024, from 0:44:00.950 --> 0:44:04.490 2 to 4 eastern, a link to the private zoom 0:44:04.489 --> 0:44:06.140 where you'll be able to join us. And we're going 0:44:06.140 --> 0:44:07.520 to talk about all kinds of stuff. It's going to 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.609 be very spontaneous. We'll answer your questions, we'll drop some 0:44:10.610 --> 0:44:16.009 knowledge and, uh, we'll maybe give some advice, not financial. Um, 0:44:16.010 --> 0:44:18.290 it's going to be a good time. So I want 0:44:18.290 --> 0:44:19.550 to be there. It's going to be great. 0:44:20.060 --> 0:44:23.690 We're going to talk about Bitcoin ETFs and the implications 0:44:23.690 --> 0:44:26.360 for decentralization. You guys. 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:28.969 Know. And so this should be encouragement for all of you. 0:44:28.969 --> 0:44:33.020 All that don't yet have the bad crypto Nifty Club 0:44:33.020 --> 0:44:37.009 NFT that gets you entry into this whole world of 0:44:37.010 --> 0:44:41.120 free airdrops. And a bonus stuff that we're releasing. You 0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:44.810 go to bad crypto dot uncut dot network, and the 0:44:44.810 --> 0:44:47.509 last NFT on there is the first one we created. 0:44:47.510 --> 0:44:51.980 It is the spinny bad Crypto Nifty Club card. Um, 0:44:51.980 --> 0:44:54.020 you can pay for it with a credit card if 0:44:54.020 --> 0:44:57.469 you don't want to, you know, pay Ethereum or use gas. 0:44:57.469 --> 0:45:02.270 And right now it is $4.43. It's pegged to, I think, 0:45:02.270 --> 0:45:06.049 0.002 ETH. And once you have this in your wallet, 0:45:06.050 --> 0:45:09.350 it's yours. You'll start getting airdrops as we create cool 0:45:09.350 --> 0:45:14.030 stuff and your world will open to new bad opportunities. 0:45:14.450 --> 0:45:16.580 There you go, there you go. And we're grateful for 0:45:16.580 --> 0:45:18.680 you guys for tuning in to the show. Uh, we're 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:20.600 extra grateful for the 24 that want to be a 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:23.150 part of the little mastermind group. All the rest of 0:45:23.150 --> 0:45:25.250 you guys do. Not nearly as cool, but that's okay. 0:45:25.250 --> 0:45:28.279 You can become cooler. Uh, because all you really need 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:30.320 to do is to. What is it? What do they 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:31.040 need to do. 0:45:31.130 --> 0:45:33.890 Buy the NFT? Oh, no, not that one. That will 0:45:33.890 --> 0:45:36.230 make them cooler, though, if they own the bad Crypto 0:45:36.530 --> 0:45:37.250 Club NFT. 0:45:37.250 --> 0:45:39.500 You don't have the NFT. What you can do instead 0:45:39.500 --> 0:45:40.520 is just stay back. 0:45:41.950 --> 0:46:00.299 Yeah. That's all you got to do. Who's bad. The 0:46:00.300 --> 0:46:03.839 Bad Crypto Podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC. 0:46:03.870 --> 0:46:06.690 The content of the show, the videos and the website 0:46:06.690 --> 0:46:10.830 is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's 0:46:10.830 --> 0:46:14.730 not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:17.790 or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any 0:46:17.790 --> 0:46:21.420 decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based 0:46:21.420 --> 0:46:25.950 on this information without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation 0:46:25.950 --> 0:46:29.370 with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading 0:46:29.370 --> 0:46:34.439 of bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone 0:46:34.440 --> 0:46:36.840 wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens 0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:40.200 mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent, 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:46.460 professional financial advisor. All you gotta do is to stay 0:46:46.460 --> 0:46:51.740 bad and buy a NFT. You won't be sad then. 0:46:52.969 --> 0:46:53.629 Wow. 0:46:55.620 --> 0:46:57.419 Who did that? All I want to do is have 0:46:57.420 --> 0:46:58.560 some fun. That. What was that. 0:46:58.560 --> 0:46:59.370 Song? Crow? 0:46:59.370 --> 0:47:03.690 Sheryl Crow, eat some, eat crow. Sheryl just busted you 0:47:03.690 --> 0:47:04.170 out there. 0:47:04.290 --> 0:47:05.549 That was by Joel. 0:47:05.550 --> 0:47:08.250 No, that song would have been a huge hit for us. 0:47:08.250 --> 0:47:10.560 Why are you stealing our melodies, Sheryl Crow? 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:12.690 That's not. 0:47:12.690 --> 0:47:13.920 Nice. Don't do that. 0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:16.529 For future melodies that we're going to come up with 0:47:16.530 --> 0:47:17.850 in our heads years down the road. 0:47:18.360 --> 0:47:18.779 That's right. 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:33.239 Come, lend me your ears. Girls and boys. Bout those 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:40.259 magic little kernels of joy. Versatile in the kitchen. Every 0:47:40.260 --> 0:47:43.440 day I'm wishing for that plant that we love so 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:50.890 much more than soy. Yes, it's corn syrup or. Boil. Grinder. 0:47:50.890 --> 0:47:58.830 Pop it. Grilled or boiled? Yes. It's. Need it today. 0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:00.899 It'll remind you. 0:48:01.140 --> 0:48:03.570 On down the way.