1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,470 S1: With Bitcoin ETFs now active, you might be feeling slightly 2 00:00:04,470 --> 00:00:09,150 S1: sheepish to ask what exactly is a Bitcoin ETF? No 3 00:00:09,150 --> 00:00:11,280 S1: need for you to feel sheepish. We're going to ask 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,490 S1: the question for you as we welcome Patrick Doherty to 5 00:00:14,490 --> 00:00:18,870 S1: the show. A teacher of digital assets at Cornell Law School, Mr. 6 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:22,830 S1: Doherty has contributed several books on securities regulation and new 7 00:00:22,829 --> 00:00:26,280 S1: financial products. He was with the SEC during the Reagan 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,940 S1: Bush years and helped craft regulations, which are used today 9 00:00:29,940 --> 00:00:34,260 S1: to sell tokens and compliance with US securities law. Asking 10 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:38,940 S1: questions sheepishly doesn't make you a sheep, just an inquisitive person. 11 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:42,090 S1: So join the herd at the Republic of Bad Cryptopia 12 00:00:42,090 --> 00:00:46,530 S1: as we discover everything you wanted to know about Bitcoin ETFs, 13 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:52,150 S1: but we're afraid to ask on episode number 710. Of 14 00:00:52,150 --> 00:00:59,920 S1: the Bad Crypto Podcast 54310. 15 00:01:00,220 --> 00:01:22,760 UU: It's insane. Who's bad? And. 16 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:29,990 S1: I am feeling she is telling me how to vote. 17 00:01:31,670 --> 00:01:33,800 S2: Man. Are you. Are you too scared to ask? 18 00:01:33,830 --> 00:01:39,050 S1: Man, I'm too afraid to question authority. Hey. 19 00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:43,460 S2: Very good. Well, welcome to episode number 710 of the 20 00:01:43,459 --> 00:01:46,039 S2: Bad Crypto Podcast. We got a good one today, folks. 21 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,950 S2: We're talking about Bitcoin ETFs and all the things around 22 00:01:48,950 --> 00:01:50,660 S2: that thing that you might not know about. 23 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:54,620 S1: And we're going to make it really sexy because Bitcoin 24 00:01:54,620 --> 00:01:57,890 S1: ETFs can be you know this whenever you talk about 25 00:01:57,890 --> 00:02:01,490 S1: financial instruments it can be really boring. But Patrick is 26 00:02:01,490 --> 00:02:05,600 S1: not boring. And we are super sexy. So all the 27 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,400 S1: questions will be asked with more male music going in 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:11,690 S1: the background. 29 00:02:12,910 --> 00:02:14,140 S2: Patrick Doherty. 30 00:02:14,139 --> 00:02:16,600 S1: Oh, yeah. Oh, and stay tuned on the other side 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,750 S1: because all of the crypto bull dragons you guys bought them, 32 00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:22,570 S1: they're gone. You own them. 24 of them are now 33 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:26,380 S1: in the firm hands of those who own a crypto 34 00:02:26,380 --> 00:02:30,130 S1: bull dragon. And we're going to announce when you're going 35 00:02:30,130 --> 00:02:32,710 S1: to be able to join us. Only those 24 are 36 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:34,630 S1: going to be able to join us for a special 37 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:38,710 S1: two hour meeting with myself. Sir. Lord Travis are going 38 00:02:38,710 --> 00:02:40,150 S1: to be there. So we're going to share that with 39 00:02:40,150 --> 00:02:43,179 S1: you on the other end of this interview that happens 40 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:49,269 S1: to be coming up well right now ETFs ETFs ETFs 41 00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:52,660 S1: Bitcoin spot. It's all the rage right now. Of course 42 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:55,780 S1: we've covered this in the form of the latest news 43 00:02:55,780 --> 00:02:59,680 S1: on our show. But what does it all mean. And 44 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,050 S1: here with us today to help break it down we've 45 00:03:02,050 --> 00:03:06,010 S1: got an Irishman. His name is Patrick Doherty. Yes. And 46 00:03:06,010 --> 00:03:10,389 S1: he is. He conceived and directs the digital assets practice 47 00:03:10,389 --> 00:03:13,900 S1: of Foley and Lardner LLP, based in Chicago. He also 48 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:17,740 S1: teaches digital assets at Cornell Law School. He's got a 49 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:22,570 S1: whole litany of things that he's done, including working for 50 00:03:22,570 --> 00:03:26,109 S1: the SEC during the Reagan Bush years, all those years ago. 51 00:03:26,110 --> 00:03:28,630 S1: And he's got a lot to say about what these 52 00:03:28,630 --> 00:03:33,460 S1: ETFs might possibly mean for the future of crypto, Bitcoin, 53 00:03:33,460 --> 00:03:38,230 S1: our economy and blockchain in general. Patrick, welcome to the 54 00:03:38,230 --> 00:03:39,670 S1: Bad Crypto podcast. 55 00:03:40,180 --> 00:03:43,120 S3: Thanks for having me Joel. Yeah, Travis as. 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,880 S1: Well. And other guy Travis to you guy over here. 57 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:46,780 S2: This is me. Yeah, yeah. 58 00:03:46,990 --> 00:03:49,540 S1: Don't forget the other guy. Um, just so we have 59 00:03:49,540 --> 00:03:53,020 S1: a firm foundation to go on so people understand the 60 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:56,170 S1: the credibility of the thoughts you're going to share, the 61 00:03:56,170 --> 00:03:58,960 S1: words you're going to say, and perhaps the jokes that 62 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,300 S1: you'll make with us along the way. Uh, go ahead 63 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:03,550 S1: and fill in. Put a little bit more meat on 64 00:04:03,550 --> 00:04:05,650 S1: the bones of your bio for me. 65 00:04:05,740 --> 00:04:10,870 S3: Yeah. Well, um. As you can tell if you're looking 66 00:04:10,870 --> 00:04:14,350 S3: at this, I've got some age. I'm well into my 67 00:04:14,350 --> 00:04:18,039 S3: 60s now, and for 40 years I was a trad 68 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,560 S3: fi lawyer doing IPOs, takeovers, that sort of thing. I 69 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,159 S3: still do that work, but about seven years ago, I 70 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,549 S3: went down the rabbit hole of crypto and have been 71 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:39,550 S3: since then been advising prop traders, exchanges, token issuers, funds, 72 00:04:39,550 --> 00:04:46,089 S3: really everyone across the entire, uh, ecosystem. Uh, and I 73 00:04:46,089 --> 00:04:50,979 S3: do some. Volunteer work on the legislation that's coursing through 74 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:54,250 S3: Congress right now. I teach at Cornell, as you mentioned, 75 00:04:54,250 --> 00:04:59,050 S3: and I live in Chicago. I also lecture at Northwestern 76 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:02,680 S3: Law School in Chicago and several others when I'm not 77 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,190 S3: at Cornell. 78 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,580 S1: Is the law school in Evanston as well, or is, uh, 79 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:08,050 S1: is it actually located? 80 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,310 S3: No, it's it's it's it's downtown in Cedarville. Mhm. Uh, 81 00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:16,599 S3: and uh, uh, you know, along with the medical school, 82 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,339 S3: it's near the hospital. 83 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:21,490 S1: Got it. All right. Well, let's let's, uh, let's start 84 00:05:21,490 --> 00:05:25,270 S1: at a really high level and then we can drill 85 00:05:25,270 --> 00:05:29,500 S1: down on this, these ETFs of course. Long anticipated. Uh, 86 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:33,010 S1: turns out the price of Bitcoin had the anticipation built 87 00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:38,950 S1: into the rumor. The news hit Bitcoin's currently down. Um, explain. 88 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:42,190 S1: For those of us that think on a 12 year 89 00:05:42,190 --> 00:05:44,800 S1: old level what these mean. 90 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,469 S3: Oh, well, you can think of it as, uh. Uh, 91 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,700 S3: a pot of Bitcoin that's held, you know, by a fund, 92 00:05:54,700 --> 00:06:00,250 S3: by a sponsor. Uh, the fund issues shares in, in it, 93 00:06:00,250 --> 00:06:04,600 S3: in it, uh, and those shares trade on a stock 94 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,409 S3: exchange in this case NYSE Arca. So you buy and 95 00:06:08,410 --> 00:06:13,180 S3: sell the shares which represent interests in in Bitcoin instead 96 00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:16,510 S3: of owning Bitcoin directly or in addition to that if 97 00:06:16,510 --> 00:06:18,130 S3: you so desire. 98 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:21,480 S2: So we just assuming that they're holding it then. Right. 99 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,789 S2: So we. So it seems like the regulation it seems 100 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:25,770 S2: like they have to be holding it. And so as 101 00:06:25,770 --> 00:06:28,440 S2: the price of Bitcoin goes, the more that they hold 102 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,380 S2: like the like for example, to me it seems like wow, 103 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:35,729 S2: what if MicroStrategy did a Bitcoin ETF right. They have 104 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:38,370 S2: so many bitcoin like that could be. 105 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,550 S3: Well that's that that's that's a really good point I 106 00:06:41,550 --> 00:06:46,740 S3: mean these are audited. So yeah the Bitcoin's really there 107 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:51,840 S3: because auditors confirm it. And you're right MicroStrategy owns an 108 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,719 S3: awful lot of Bitcoin. It is kind of sort of 109 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,250 S3: like an ETF. It does have other business. It doesn't 110 00:06:59,250 --> 00:07:03,480 S3: only hold Bitcoin. So it's not a pure play the 111 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,210 S3: way these funds are. These funds are pure plays. If 112 00:07:06,210 --> 00:07:11,970 S3: you own shares of a Bitcoin ETP exchange traded product 113 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:16,320 S3: you own an indirect indirect interest in bitcoin and and 114 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,290 S3: nothing else. Mhm. Uh. So it is as if you 115 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:27,720 S3: held the, uh, you held the, the cash product itself. 116 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:33,450 S1: So how do, um, how are we assured via these audits? 117 00:07:33,450 --> 00:07:36,270 S1: We know that audits are only as reliable as the 118 00:07:36,270 --> 00:07:39,420 S1: people who are auditing them, that the same thing that's 119 00:07:39,420 --> 00:07:42,840 S1: happened with the precious metals market, uh, silver and gold 120 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,880 S1: being traded heavily on paper and thereby manipulating the price 121 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,580 S1: of metals to be as low as they are. How 122 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:54,540 S1: do we know that same thing won't or perhaps can't 123 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:57,810 S1: happen with the Bitcoin ETFs? Well. 124 00:07:58,230 --> 00:08:02,190 S3: Smart question because you know that's been a concern of 125 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:06,810 S3: the SEC all along. Uh you know these these have 126 00:08:06,810 --> 00:08:10,530 S3: been proposed now for more than ten years. That's how 127 00:08:10,530 --> 00:08:13,739 S3: long it took to get one through the SEC. We 128 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:17,370 S3: can talk about that too. But, uh, how do we 129 00:08:17,370 --> 00:08:20,040 S3: know it's not manipulated? We don't know for sure, but 130 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:26,880 S3: there are surveillance agreements between the sponsors. Well, between the 131 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,410 S3: listing exchange on the one hand and, uh, the CME 132 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:34,740 S3: on the other, which is where the where the futures 133 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:42,210 S3: contracts trade and those surveillance agreements, uh, you know, help 134 00:08:42,210 --> 00:08:47,670 S3: detect possible manipulation. Uh, is it perfect? No. Is it 135 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:54,660 S3: pretty good? Yeah. Probably is. Um. Uh, all I won't say. Oh, commodities. 136 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:59,970 S3: But many commodities are susceptible to manipulation because the cash 137 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:07,000 S3: markets are very thinly regulated. Um, so it is an issue. 138 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,480 S3: It is a concern. And but that's something that investors 139 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,360 S3: take into account in making up their minds whether they 140 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,880 S3: want to buy this or not. I mean, if these 141 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,450 S3: are spelled out as risk factors in the prospectus, you know, 142 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:21,940 S3: this could be this product could be manipulated or the 143 00:09:21,940 --> 00:09:26,679 S3: underlying the underlying market could be manipulated. And if it is, 144 00:09:27,370 --> 00:09:30,160 S3: you could suffer for that. So you take your chances 145 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,570 S3: if you buy. Mm. 146 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:35,890 S2: It does sound like the, the potential for, you know, 147 00:09:35,890 --> 00:09:39,429 S2: some corruptions seems to be because it's so weird to me, Patrick, 148 00:09:39,429 --> 00:09:43,209 S2: about how, you know, uh, Larry Fink of Blackrock was 149 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:44,920 S2: like no big con. And then all of a sudden 150 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,470 S2: he's like, oh my God, I'm a big believer in Bitcoin. 151 00:09:47,470 --> 00:09:51,790 S2: Yeah well Bitcoin like what what is going what has 152 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:54,640 S2: changed his mind. It's weird to me. 153 00:09:55,150 --> 00:09:58,660 S3: There are a lot of new converts uh in the 154 00:09:58,660 --> 00:10:04,870 S3: trad fi institutions right. The big asset managers, the investment banks. Uh. 155 00:10:06,020 --> 00:10:09,380 S3: You know what changed their mind? I don't know, but 156 00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:13,910 S3: I know it's a big market. Possibly the ability to 157 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:16,309 S3: sell a lot of product here has got to be 158 00:10:16,309 --> 00:10:23,559 S3: a motivation for some. Um. Uh, the, uh, you know, 159 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,829 S3: the the the chairman of, uh, Morgan Stanley, I should 160 00:10:26,830 --> 00:10:32,170 S3: say the recently retired CEO of Morgan Stanley, still on 161 00:10:32,170 --> 00:10:37,000 S3: the board, um, said, uh, I think just last week 162 00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:42,100 S3: that he thinks that, um, you know, Bitcoin has a place, 163 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:45,250 S3: albeit a very small place. Those are the words he used. 164 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:51,330 S3: Very small place in the portfolio of wealthy people. Um, 165 00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:58,530 S3: but that is highly speculative. Um, uh, instrument and, uh, 166 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:03,620 S3: needs to be understood that way. Uh, so. I'm not 167 00:11:03,620 --> 00:11:06,290 S3: a finance guy. I don't give financial advice, but I 168 00:11:06,290 --> 00:11:11,420 S3: think a lot of asset managers are saying something like 1% 169 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:17,870 S3: of a portfolio might be in crypto assets and particularly Bitcoin. 170 00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:22,819 S3: Some say 1 to 5%. Again, that's not advice from me. 171 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:28,480 S3: I'm just saying that's what they're saying on the street now. Um, 172 00:11:28,929 --> 00:11:33,880 S3: and then others say 0%. Vanguard apparently has decided that 173 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,150 S3: they're not going to allow their customers to buy any 174 00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:41,079 S3: of these Bitcoin. Uh, exchange traded products. And so if 175 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,720 S3: you're a Vanguard customer and you don't like it, you 176 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,520 S3: got to open an account somewhere else. 177 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,170 S1: I think they are too. I mean, at least I 178 00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:51,010 S1: noticed on X that people are very verbal. They're like, okay, fine. 179 00:11:51,010 --> 00:11:52,870 S1: I just tell you, yeah, that's fine. I want us 180 00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:53,950 S1: to be your customer. 181 00:11:53,950 --> 00:11:55,570 S3: You know, you don't want to sell it. I'll go 182 00:11:55,570 --> 00:12:00,550 S3: to fidelity or I'll go somewhere else. So, um, there 183 00:12:00,550 --> 00:12:04,179 S3: is an awful lot of demand for this product when 184 00:12:04,690 --> 00:12:10,689 S3: when grayscale proposed to list and got denied and then sued. 185 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,900 S3: And then one. That's a great story in itself. But 186 00:12:14,050 --> 00:12:17,890 S3: when they did that, there were thousands of comment letters 187 00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:21,850 S3: to the SEC saying, please approve this. That came from 188 00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:25,120 S3: people who really wanted to buy the product. And the 189 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,110 S3: SEC wasn't let them letting them buy it. Uh, because 190 00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:33,160 S3: the SEC is you basically was in so many words, 191 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,100 S3: we understand this better than you. We know what's good 192 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:39,309 S3: for you better than you do. And we don't think 193 00:12:39,309 --> 00:12:42,579 S3: this is something you should invest in. That's called merit regulation. 194 00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:44,200 S3: And they're not supposed to do that. 195 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,020 S1: It's so nice that they're there to protect us. Uh, 196 00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:50,050 S1: you know, I mean, meanwhile, they issue a, uh, a 197 00:12:50,050 --> 00:12:53,710 S1: fake tweet saying that the ETFs are approved, Bitcoin goes 198 00:12:53,710 --> 00:12:56,650 S1: up a thousand, and then they retracted 20 minutes later 199 00:12:56,650 --> 00:13:00,819 S1: saying that that wasn't an official tweet. And 90 million 200 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:04,300 S1: in Bitcoin were liquidated. Yeah. We're supposed to trust that 201 00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:08,410 S1: these people really not only are interested in protecting us, 202 00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:09,790 S1: but are capable. 203 00:13:10,179 --> 00:13:14,200 S3: Well that that that was uh, there's a federal investigation 204 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:21,450 S3: into that, as you can imagine. And, um. Congressional leadership, uh, 205 00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:26,280 S3: sent sent letters to the FCC the same day saying, 206 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:32,190 S3: what's going on here? And, oh, by the way, you demand, uh, 207 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:39,329 S3: a great cybersecurity from the list of companies who whose stocks, uh, uh, 208 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:43,530 S3: you oversee, whose stock trading you oversee. But you can't 209 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:49,120 S3: do it yourself. So, um. It. I mean, I don't 210 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,830 S3: know what happened there yet. I don't think any of 211 00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:57,040 S3: us know yet. It's under investigation. But you're right, it did, cause. 212 00:13:57,710 --> 00:14:03,500 S3: Damage in the market because people transacted based on bad 213 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:07,880 S3: information that, it turns out, didn't really come from the SEC, 214 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,470 S3: but it sure looked like it had. 215 00:14:10,429 --> 00:14:12,860 S2: Mm. So let me ask this. So how do you 216 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:17,390 S2: think that these um the Bitcoin ETF. How do you 217 00:14:17,390 --> 00:14:20,630 S2: think that that it's going to be overall considering that 218 00:14:20,630 --> 00:14:24,230 S2: you know Satoshi Nakamoto. He doesn't he doesn't really want 219 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:27,980 S2: more intermediary involvement from big you know big thing. So 220 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,640 S2: it's like a I don't know it's a paradox. 221 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,210 S3: It is. Uh, you're spot on, correct. Travis. I mean, uh. 222 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:46,640 S3: It's ironic that, uh, the, uh, this product which is 223 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,560 S3: going to lead, is leading, I believe, into deeper retail, uh, 224 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:59,610 S3: investment in the asset. Is, uh, involves all these centralized institutions. 225 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,840 S3: I mean, Satoshi's idea was peer to peer. You know, 226 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,520 S3: it was, you know, I sell Bitcoin to you. You 227 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,540 S3: sell it to Joel using our, you know, our handheld 228 00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:18,840 S3: devices and, you know, without any custodian other than ourselves 229 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:27,570 S3: and certainly without any, uh, exchange or investment bank or 230 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:32,760 S3: brokerage fee firm charging a commission, by the way. Uh, so, yeah, 231 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,640 S3: I guess I need to own a ledger or a 232 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,730 S3: trazer or something like that. And I can buy one 233 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:41,880 S3: for 50 bucks, a hundred bucks to do it. But 234 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,240 S3: I shouldn't have to pay, you know, an an AUM 235 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,930 S3: fee to do that. So. So that was his idea, right. 236 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:52,380 S3: And that but that's not where we are now. And 237 00:15:52,380 --> 00:15:55,800 S3: the reason we are now is because it's so incredibly 238 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:03,030 S3: convenient to use a stock broker. And for the stock 239 00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:07,290 S3: broker to be, uh, a member of a stock exchange 240 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:11,750 S3: where the shares trade. And oh, by the way, notice 241 00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:14,990 S3: this carefully. The SEC is very involved in all of that. 242 00:16:15,690 --> 00:16:21,600 S3: So part of the Satoshi's vision was decentralised, not just 243 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:27,720 S3: away from the banking industry, but also away from the government. Mm. And, 244 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,600 S3: and so some people look at this and they say, 245 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,500 S3: you know, this is a Trojan horse. Uh, Chair Gensler 246 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:40,020 S3: has brought us this slew of ETFs, and I'm not 247 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:43,110 S3: sure he really wanted to, but the D.C. Circuit Court 248 00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:45,900 S3: of Appeals basically said you kind of sort of need 249 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:46,920 S3: to do this. 250 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,990 S2: Maybe part of the Trojan horse, though, to make it 251 00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:51,000 S2: seem like you don't really want to do this. We 252 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,370 S2: don't really we don't want to do this. Right? 253 00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:58,890 S3: Right. But but notice the SEC is going to regulate 254 00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:03,750 S3: these products. That's certainly the case. So I mean he 255 00:17:03,750 --> 00:17:09,620 S3: wanted the power to regulate crypto assets. Uh, from Congress. 256 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:11,870 S3: They never gave it to him. I mean, I think 257 00:17:11,869 --> 00:17:16,010 S3: he claims it was given to him in 1934. But, 258 00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:18,679 S3: you know, the reason Congress, uh, kind of sort of 259 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,959 S3: disagrees with that. So, um, he didn't hasn't gotten it 260 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,030 S3: that way. They've been fighting it out in the courts. 261 00:17:26,030 --> 00:17:30,290 S3: And then meanwhile they introduced these products. And there he is, 262 00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:38,960 S3: I should say. There they are. The agency is. Regulating? Um, probably. Well, 263 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,060 S3: I don't know how big this is going to get, 264 00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:44,120 S3: but this is a big financial product that a lot 265 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,890 S3: of retail and investors are coming into, and that's all 266 00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:52,459 S3: SEC regulated. And that may well be for the, you know, 267 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,090 S3: the good that may be the best result I don't know. 268 00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:59,090 S2: So not necessarily regulating crypto per se. They're right. No 269 00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:01,550 S2: they're not they're not. Yes. Right. So it's like they're. 270 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:02,090 S3: Regulating. 271 00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:03,530 S2: Some separation of state right. 272 00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:07,129 S3: That's right. They regulate the share trading and they regulate the, 273 00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:13,820 S3: the sponsors who who bring these products. Um, I mean, 274 00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:16,370 S3: the exchanges do that too, by the way. I mean, 275 00:18:16,369 --> 00:18:19,250 S3: it's not only the SEC, there's some self regulation by 276 00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:23,060 S3: the exchanges and there's self regulation by the brokerage community, 277 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:25,760 S3: because the brokers and the investment banks who buy and 278 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,520 S3: sell this, they all have supervision. They all have, uh, 279 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:34,550 S3: regulatory responsibilities. So, uh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, 280 00:18:34,550 --> 00:18:38,780 S3: but it is not what Satoshi had in mind. How's that? 281 00:18:38,869 --> 00:18:39,890 S1: An ultimately not. 282 00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:42,020 S3: Decentralized. It's not decentralized. 283 00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:46,580 S1: We we always encourage people to use exchanges as exchanges 284 00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:48,679 S1: and then take your take it off, put it in 285 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,790 S1: a ledger or Trezor. This is like one step beyond that. 286 00:18:52,790 --> 00:18:56,210 S1: You know, on an exchange, at least you have access 287 00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:59,929 S1: to the wallet. But they're custodial here. You're not actually 288 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:06,410 S1: owning Bitcoin. You can't send somebody bitcoin if you're the ETF. 289 00:19:06,590 --> 00:19:09,980 S3: That's exactly right. You own shares in a trust that 290 00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:14,960 S3: holds bitcoin. You do not own bitcoin directly. You have. 291 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,340 S3: The economics of Bitcoin ownership for the most part. I mean, 292 00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:24,220 S3: Bitcoin doesn't, um. Bitcoin. You know there are no staking 293 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:27,430 S3: fees for Bitcoin. It doesn't pay interest. But if there 294 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:31,030 S3: were any distributions you would not get that. Um, but 295 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:33,460 S3: it doesn't matter because they don't have it anyway. Uh 296 00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:39,460 S3: Bitcoin doesn't have it anyway. Um, but uh, but you're right, 297 00:19:39,460 --> 00:19:44,290 S3: you have claim against the trust. You do not own bitcoin. 298 00:19:44,290 --> 00:19:46,720 S3: And oh by the way you can do it both ways. 299 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,950 S3: I mean there's there's no law that says having bought 300 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:57,400 S3: shares in one of these ETFs you cannot buy Bitcoin 301 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,119 S3: in the cash market. You certainly can. You can certainly 302 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:07,270 S3: go to the crypto exchanges and become customers there. Yes 303 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:09,850 S3: they're being sued. I'm not going to get into that. 304 00:20:10,030 --> 00:20:15,550 S3: But um, they're certainly still very much in business. Um, 305 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:18,790 S3: and uh, you know, one of them is, uh, a 306 00:20:18,790 --> 00:20:23,200 S3: custodian for about, you know, 8 or 10 of these products. 307 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,470 S3: So they're making money that way, too, and nothing wrong 308 00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:31,030 S3: with that. But that, that, that, um, uh, you can 309 00:20:31,030 --> 00:20:34,030 S3: own you can own Bitcoin in several different ways. This 310 00:20:34,030 --> 00:20:37,540 S3: is an additional option. And by the way, you can 311 00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:40,450 S3: also say it's not for me. I don't want it. 312 00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:43,899 S3: You know, I uh, I, you know, I, I, I, 313 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:46,660 S3: I think like Warren Buffett I think it's worthless. It 314 00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:50,200 S3: has no value, you know, or the chairman of Chase, 315 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:56,949 S3: Jamie Diamond, is worthless. It says no value. Um, and, um, uh, 316 00:20:56,950 --> 00:21:02,320 S3: you know, there's there's no mandatory investments in America. You know, 317 00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:05,500 S3: you it can be an all cash all day long, 318 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:06,400 S3: if that's what you want. 319 00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:08,530 S2: So this mine, it seems to me it might make 320 00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:12,580 S2: more people aware of crypto realizing. Oh, yes, an entry 321 00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:16,240 S2: point into it. It's it's finally been validated in the 322 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 S2: eye of the SEC. So now we're going to be 323 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,889 S2: more well, I want to ask this because I was 324 00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:22,030 S2: trying to you might've heard me. 325 00:21:22,270 --> 00:21:25,210 S3: I think you're right about that, Travis. I think it will. 326 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,560 S3: It's it's I don't mean to give it a bad connotation, 327 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,600 S3: but it's kind of like a gateway drug. You know, 328 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,570 S3: if you buy some shares of this, that may lead 329 00:21:34,570 --> 00:21:36,459 S3: to other involvement in the crypto in. 330 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:38,470 S2: This coin right here, man, I got some. Yeah. 331 00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:40,090 S1: He's mainlining it. 332 00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:43,210 S2: Mainline. Yes I want to ask about this. So you 333 00:21:43,210 --> 00:21:45,040 S2: know I don't know if you know what the numbers are. 334 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,320 S2: I was over here frantically typing to try to figure 335 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,470 S2: it out. So I know that the global real estate 336 00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:56,290 S2: market is maybe somewhere 3 to $400 trillion, right? Stock markets. 337 00:21:56,290 --> 00:21:58,690 S2: The numbers that I'm finding is somewhere last year around 338 00:21:58,690 --> 00:22:03,250 S2: 100 to $200 trillion. So let's just say for the 339 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:07,120 S2: sake of it all, it's $500 trillion are in those assets. 340 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,460 S2: So are they saying 1% of that, which would be 341 00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:13,659 S2: 5 trillion should go into Bitcoin. And if that's the case, 342 00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:17,949 S2: then Bitcoin is is worth freaking $250,000. 343 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:25,719 S3: There's, there's saying, uh, that 1% of your portfolio. Right. 344 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,390 S2: So if everybody's got 1% of their portfolio. 345 00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:32,170 S3: Right, right, right. But but not for all retail investors, 346 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:37,600 S3: for those for whom it's suitable. Okay. Uh, and and that's, 347 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,900 S3: you know, and that's not everyone. Um, uh, it's well 348 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:49,480 S3: beyond the accredited investor category, but, you know, it's probably 349 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:55,750 S3: not suitable for everyone. And, uh, you know, 1 to 5% 350 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,420 S3: is a is a is a rule of thumb that 351 00:22:58,420 --> 00:23:01,180 S3: you're starting to hear. I think 5% is pretty high, 352 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:05,409 S3: but that's but that's just that's just me. Oh, unless, 353 00:23:05,410 --> 00:23:12,010 S3: by the way, you're a professional trader or you consider 354 00:23:12,010 --> 00:23:16,960 S3: yourself very sophisticated regarding crypto assets, and there are many 355 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:24,280 S3: such people and I have, um. Yeah. So, uh, I 356 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,229 S3: think for a novice 1 to 5% and probably on 357 00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:32,740 S3: the low end of that makes more sense. But but, uh, 358 00:23:33,609 --> 00:23:38,990 S3: but if you're a fan and you follow this carefully. Um, 359 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:41,960 S3: and if you do, by the way, you're probably not 360 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,470 S3: just interested in Bitcoin exchange traded funds. You're probably all 361 00:23:45,470 --> 00:23:50,390 S3: over the crypto sphere, right? Um, and those are not 362 00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:53,450 S3: exchange traded funds yet. You can't even get an Eath 363 00:23:53,450 --> 00:23:58,100 S3: ETF yet. Um, but I suspect that'll come soon. 364 00:23:58,310 --> 00:24:01,430 S1: Well, whatever we think of Gary Gensler, fortunately, there are 365 00:24:01,430 --> 00:24:04,820 S1: some voices in the SEC that are voices of reason. 366 00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:07,910 S1: One of them is a crypto mom, Hester Pierce, former 367 00:24:07,910 --> 00:24:13,850 S1: guest on this show. And she has been spot on about, uh, crypto, uh, 368 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:18,350 S1: for the long haul here. And, uh, you've suggested, I think, 369 00:24:18,350 --> 00:24:21,740 S1: in some of the writings that she should be the, uh, 370 00:24:21,740 --> 00:24:26,540 S1: chair of the SEC, uh, in any administration, but especially 371 00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:27,770 S1: in a Republican administration. 372 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,810 S3: Well, yeah, I think so. I don't think, um. You 373 00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:35,840 S3: know I'm I'm not in Washington insider but I don't 374 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,600 S3: think the Biden administration is likely to pick or they 375 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,290 S3: like Gary Gensler and and the direction he is going. 376 00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:46,190 S2: Well, they also like SBF and FDX donate. 377 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,450 S3: I didn't say they don't make errors. Jeffrey Epstein and 378 00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:55,250 S3: I didn't say they don't make errors. Uh, yeah. You know, 379 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:59,210 S3: I love Commissioner Peirce. I think if she didn't exist, 380 00:24:59,210 --> 00:25:01,879 S3: we'd have to invent her. I think no one in 381 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,590 S3: government understands the digital assets industry better than she does. 382 00:25:06,590 --> 00:25:10,730 S3: No one cares more about the limitations on federal power 383 00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:14,120 S3: than she does. And, you know, she's been in that 384 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,640 S3: job for six years. She's been right about it from 385 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,780 S3: the start. You see this very clearly in her frequent 386 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:26,930 S3: dissents from SEC attempts to expand its jurisdiction by making 387 00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:31,879 S3: unsupportable claims that are ultimately fought about in court and 388 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,550 S3: rebuffed by the courts. The courts have been. Pushing back 389 00:25:36,550 --> 00:25:41,379 S3: against the SEC's claims. Um, you see it most obviously 390 00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:45,970 S3: in her dissents to the SEC's decisions to reject Bitcoin 391 00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:51,460 S3: ETF applications. Um, including one in which I was involved 392 00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:55,990 S3: as counsel to the applicant. Um, but you need to 393 00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:58,480 S3: be living under a rock not to see and hear 394 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,350 S3: her presence felt across the broad expanse of the SEC's 395 00:26:02,350 --> 00:26:06,400 S3: war on crypto that Congress never declared. The SEC declared it. 396 00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:10,109 S3: And and not just on crypto. That's what this show 397 00:26:10,109 --> 00:26:14,550 S3: is about. But she, uh, you know, the SEC is 398 00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:19,560 S3: also undertaking to regulate commerce through climate change disclosure rulemaking, 399 00:26:20,130 --> 00:26:25,590 S3: which is what, uh, progressive politicians want to see. But 400 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:30,180 S3: as far beyond the SEC statutory mandate to protect investors, 401 00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:35,369 S3: she has been critical of that initiative, too. Like I said, 402 00:26:35,369 --> 00:26:41,790 S3: she is very focused on the limitations on federal power. Uh, 403 00:26:41,790 --> 00:26:47,580 S3: that the agencies have in the law is a national treasure. 404 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,540 S3: And in a in a Republican administration, she ought to 405 00:26:51,540 --> 00:26:54,750 S3: be chairman. And, uh, by the way, that's not an 406 00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:56,669 S3: endorsement of any particular candidate. 407 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:58,620 S2: No, no, that's an endorsement that we're taking. 408 00:26:59,369 --> 00:27:03,090 S3: No, I mean, I it's an endorsement of her. Okay, 409 00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:12,900 S3: but I'm not endorsing anyone for president. Okay. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, uh, 410 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:16,830 S3: you know, uh, I'm not going there, but it would 411 00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:20,129 S3: be one benefit of a change of administration in a 412 00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:23,219 S3: libertarian direction. I am a libertarian. I'll say that much. 413 00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:28,490 S3: And she is too, so I, uh. Uh, you know, 414 00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:30,920 S3: can't say enough good things about her. And we would 415 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,980 S3: this industry would be. Hurt if she were not in 416 00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:39,670 S3: the job she's doing now. It's got to be tough 417 00:27:39,670 --> 00:27:43,600 S3: to be always in the minority on these things. Almost always, 418 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,470 S3: almost always. The chairman voted with her this time. But, um. 419 00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:52,580 S3: I'm awfully glad that she is continued in that role. 420 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,109 S2: I want to ask. I want to ask you something 421 00:27:55,109 --> 00:27:57,630 S2: about this, because I did some research on some stuff 422 00:27:57,630 --> 00:28:01,590 S2: earlier today, and it was talking about the tokenization of 423 00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:06,810 S2: other assets. Right. You start seeing more tokenization of assets. 424 00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:09,810 S2: And it was one of the articles that Joel deleted. 425 00:28:09,810 --> 00:28:11,850 S2: But I thought it was interesting because there's some cool 426 00:28:11,850 --> 00:28:14,129 S2: stuff that's going on with these things. And it's like 427 00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:18,450 S2: I've always thought like security traded tokens, right? Like instead 428 00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:20,729 S2: of stocks, like more of these things. Seems like they're 429 00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:23,400 S2: going to be tokenized over time. And it seems like 430 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,010 S2: that this is one of those first steps. The ETF 431 00:28:26,010 --> 00:28:29,399 S2: is maybe one of the more official first steps into 432 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,520 S2: moving more towards tokenization of more assets. 433 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:36,060 S3: I think that's right. And I think that's what, uh, 434 00:28:36,869 --> 00:28:43,560 S3: institutional investors and what the investment banks think as well. Um, 435 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,490 S3: they're talking about securities tokens. They're talking about, you know, 436 00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:54,870 S3: for example, uh, it's just the digitization of the financial instrument. So, 437 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,500 S3: I mean, the classic example, the classic example is, is 438 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,290 S3: real estate, you know, putting, you know, buying and selling 439 00:29:01,290 --> 00:29:05,790 S3: real estate in digital format, uh, or ownership interest in 440 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:10,260 S3: real estate in digital format, much more liquid than the 441 00:29:10,260 --> 00:29:14,370 S3: classic way of doing it all on paper, um, much 442 00:29:14,370 --> 00:29:19,140 S3: more economical, much quicker to trade and settle, for example. 443 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,540 S3: But you can do this with common stocks too. You 444 00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:24,120 S3: can do it with bonds. There have been tokenized bond 445 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,380 S3: offerings in Europe. Um, and I expect those to come 446 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:33,990 S3: to America soon. Uh, uh, as well. It's part of. 447 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,660 S3: I mean, this is internet money, right? So part of 448 00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:46,410 S3: internet money includes tokenized stock and tokenized bonds, um, which 449 00:29:46,410 --> 00:29:50,100 S3: the SEC would regulate because those are securities. No one 450 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:53,640 S3: doubts that stocks and bonds are securities. No one fights 451 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,740 S3: over that. We fight over crypto assets because many of 452 00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:02,760 S3: them look more like commodities and securities to to us. Mhm. 453 00:30:02,970 --> 00:30:04,080 S3: But to some of us. 454 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,460 S1: So how far behind. 455 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:11,010 S2: It's actually magical internet mining. 456 00:30:12,330 --> 00:30:16,020 S1: So how far behind are we then on uh Ethereum ETFs. 457 00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:19,980 S1: Because certainly uh Ethereum is price is held perhaps on 458 00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:22,890 S1: the same rumor that it's next. 459 00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:28,820 S3: Uh, yes. There's at least one application pending that I 460 00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:32,780 S3: think comes due in May. If I'm not wrong. It's 461 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:35,480 S3: not mine. It's not my client. I'd love to do 462 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,280 S3: one of these, but I haven't started on one yet, and. And, um. 463 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,570 S3: I think it's although the chair Gensler said, look, don't 464 00:30:45,570 --> 00:30:48,780 S3: think that approving the Bitcoin fund means we're going to 465 00:30:48,780 --> 00:30:53,190 S3: approve anything else. He he did say that, but I 466 00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:55,590 S3: think they're going to be driven to do it because 467 00:30:55,590 --> 00:31:00,120 S3: the same reasoning that applies to the Bitcoin fund probably 468 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,990 S3: applies to to the ETH funds as well. There are 469 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,570 S3: futures markets that are regulated by the CFTC and the 470 00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:11,520 S3: CME and other exchanges. 471 00:31:11,790 --> 00:31:16,050 S1: Well, it's necessarily because, you know, crypto according to Gary, uh, 472 00:31:16,050 --> 00:31:19,140 S1: you know, there's all kinds of, uh, criminal enterprises that 473 00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:22,800 S1: are funded by. Yeah. And that never happens with, with 474 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,370 S1: cash or, you know, other that just that doesn't happen 475 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:27,240 S1: at all. Yeah. 476 00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:33,450 S3: Yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, $100 bills, 477 00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:35,220 S3: you know, I don't know how many of them have 478 00:31:35,220 --> 00:31:37,470 S3: traces of cocaine, but it's a very high point. 479 00:31:37,470 --> 00:31:39,300 S2: Oh my God. I saw a statistic on that the 480 00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:40,410 S2: other day. And I was like. 481 00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:43,710 S3: And I, and I take I take that personally because 482 00:31:43,710 --> 00:31:50,010 S3: I'm a descendant of Ben Franklin, but uh, but uh, but, uh, uh, look, 483 00:31:50,010 --> 00:31:52,950 S3: I don't mean to make light of the criminal use 484 00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:55,740 S3: of crypto assets. 485 00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:58,230 S1: We'll do that for you. We'll we'll. 486 00:31:58,230 --> 00:32:01,830 S3: Hear. But but notice this. It's almost always bitcoin. No 487 00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:06,240 S3: one uses ether that way. And uh, so if you're 488 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:12,480 S3: concerned about that and and you're right to be somewhat 489 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:18,540 S3: concerned about it. Um it's really. Probably not a big 490 00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:23,100 S3: deal for ether. Um, and it is something that Gensler 491 00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:25,650 S3: mentioned in his separate statement. He said, you know, these 492 00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:28,230 S3: it's these are not this is not like oil. It's 493 00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:31,620 S3: not like precious metals or real uses for that. The 494 00:32:31,620 --> 00:32:34,650 S3: real use is for Bitcoin. He says, you know, our, 495 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:41,460 S3: our criminal uses, which is an overstatement of, of the 496 00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:43,950 S3: I mean, I own Bitcoin and I'm not a criminal 497 00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:47,730 S3: so I'm just a hodler, right. So there are plenty 498 00:32:47,730 --> 00:32:53,800 S3: of hodlers out there. Uh, who don't do, uh, anything 499 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,430 S3: inappropriate with their Bitcoin holdings. Holdings? 500 00:32:57,940 --> 00:32:59,560 S2: That's good. I just want to say this. So I 501 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,080 S2: asked grok. Joel, I asked grok, I said, what percentage 502 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,810 S2: of paper money has traces of cocaine on it, and 503 00:33:04,810 --> 00:33:06,910 S2: it says it's been found. Studies have shown that up 504 00:33:06,910 --> 00:33:10,660 S2: to 90% of banknotes in circulation in the US have 505 00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:14,290 S2: found traces of cocaine. That's a pretty high number. Imagine 506 00:33:14,290 --> 00:33:16,900 S2: all these bills passing around tiny amounts of the white stuff. 507 00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:19,810 S2: It's like a never ending party for your wallet. 508 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,250 S3: Right? So I guess we're supposed to shut down all 509 00:33:24,250 --> 00:33:27,760 S3: the banks because they traffic in dollar bills, right? 510 00:33:27,850 --> 00:33:30,160 S1: You stick those in a counter, and those little traces 511 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,800 S1: of powder gets all over everything, right? 512 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,100 S3: I mean, again, that's making light of a serious subject. 513 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,410 S3: There are things you can do with crypto assets you 514 00:33:38,410 --> 00:33:41,320 S3: cannot do with money. For example, you can send it 515 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,120 S3: very far, very fast to an account that is, if 516 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:54,110 S3: not anonymous, is at least pseudonymous. And now you can 517 00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:59,209 S3: be found, though. Um. Uh, I mean, there are several 518 00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:04,700 S3: companies that are very, very good at tracking down, uh, uh, 519 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:10,100 S3: the proceeds of, uh, of ransomware. Uh, very, very good 520 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:17,510 S3: at it. The government itself is quite good at it. Uh, so, uh, yeah, 521 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:20,210 S3: the crime is committed, but you may not get away 522 00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:22,550 S3: with it. And, uh. 523 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,180 S2: Around this. So you were talking about, you know, potentially 524 00:34:26,180 --> 00:34:29,540 S2: an Ethereum ETF. Does that mean that it's quite possible 525 00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:32,330 S2: down the road we could be having a Binance ETF. 526 00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:34,969 S2: There could be a Solana ETF polka dot ETF. 527 00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:40,460 S3: I absolutely like yes I think it's quite possible that 528 00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:44,870 S3: they if you take the top 20 tokens or so, uh, 529 00:34:44,870 --> 00:34:48,529 S3: and you and you omit the stablecoins because, you know, 530 00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:55,130 S3: why would you make an ETF out of that then? Um. Then, uh, 531 00:34:55,130 --> 00:35:00,590 S3: several of those could be could come. Um, the it helps. 532 00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:03,830 S3: It might even be necessary under current law, but it 533 00:35:03,830 --> 00:35:07,310 S3: would certainly help if they already traded in a regulated 534 00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:10,220 S3: futures market. And I think the only two for that 535 00:35:10,219 --> 00:35:14,600 S3: are Bitcoin and ether moment. But there are futures markets 536 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,000 S3: that are, uh, you know, away from the regulated agencies, 537 00:35:20,570 --> 00:35:23,839 S3: away from the regulators as well. And there are foreign 538 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:32,149 S3: exchanges that that count. Um, so I wouldn't say that's impossible. Uh, 539 00:35:32,150 --> 00:35:36,620 S3: there could also be, uh, a fund that holds multiple coins, 540 00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:42,319 S3: you know, some kind of diversified portfolio, if you will, of, uh, 541 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,250 S3: crypto assets. 542 00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:44,480 S2: Tokens. That's. Yeah. 543 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,620 S3: Travel tokens. 544 00:35:45,739 --> 00:35:49,069 S1: Why not an NFT f right? 545 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,580 S3: So, uh, and I know of at least one out 546 00:35:52,580 --> 00:35:56,630 S3: there now, actually. Um, and so I don't think it 547 00:35:56,630 --> 00:36:01,190 S3: trades on a major exchange yet, but it certainly trades over-the-counter. Um, 548 00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:06,049 S3: so that could come to, um. Uh, the other thing 549 00:36:06,050 --> 00:36:13,009 S3: we'll see is just more fund development, private funds, you know, um, uh, 550 00:36:13,070 --> 00:36:16,100 S3: I think we'll see more private funds and different kinds 551 00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:23,450 S3: of private funds because of, because of this thawing, uh, 552 00:36:23,450 --> 00:36:27,770 S3: by the SEC and the fund area. And the SEC 553 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:31,880 S3: actually doesn't regulate private funds very much. Uh, it doesn't 554 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,110 S3: have the authority to very much, uh, so that you 555 00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:38,300 S3: can be more creative there. Um. 556 00:36:39,730 --> 00:36:42,730 S1: Well, I think we have a better understanding of what's 557 00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:46,060 S1: going on now, Patrick, thanks to you, I want to, uh. Uh, 558 00:36:46,060 --> 00:36:49,840 S1: as we wrap up here, ask you to prognosticate just 559 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,660 S1: a little bit. I know this is not financial advice. 560 00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:55,660 S1: We have the, uh, you know, these ETFs are out there. Now, 561 00:36:55,660 --> 00:36:58,990 S1: the Bitcoin halving is upon us in April, right? Uh, 562 00:36:58,989 --> 00:37:00,760 S1: so I'm going to ask you a question. We ask 563 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,340 S1: many guests and of course not holding you to it, 564 00:37:03,340 --> 00:37:06,970 S1: but what do you think are all time high? If 565 00:37:06,969 --> 00:37:08,980 S1: you are going to be a guessing man is going 566 00:37:08,980 --> 00:37:11,410 S1: to be on this, uh, bull run. 567 00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:13,750 S3: On this bull run. Yeah. 568 00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:18,400 S1: 24 to 25, 2024 to 2025. What do you think? 569 00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:21,220 S3: I don't have a view on that. I will not 570 00:37:21,219 --> 00:37:25,239 S3: be surprised if it tests the all time high and. 571 00:37:26,410 --> 00:37:31,760 S3: I don't think about it much because. But I view 572 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,020 S3: Bitcoin mainly as insurance rather than an investment. I view 573 00:37:36,020 --> 00:37:39,800 S3: it as if prices get very, very high in Bitcoin. 574 00:37:40,190 --> 00:37:45,049 S3: That means something terrible has happened. Probably that means that 575 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:45,680 S3: what's very. 576 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,509 S1: Very high, I mean. 577 00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:54,100 S3: Well, you know, it's. $200,000 or more. You know, $1 million, 578 00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:59,259 S3: if that. If that happens. That means we have fiscal 579 00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:03,580 S3: and monetary chaos in the United States. In my view, 580 00:38:03,580 --> 00:38:06,760 S3: that's what it means. And I don't want that to happen. Right. 581 00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:11,200 S3: Because I have a lot of dollars denominated investments. 582 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,540 S2: Yeah, I was I was watching a guy. He was 583 00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:17,590 S2: talking about the the overall price of Bitcoin. He was like, dude, 584 00:38:17,590 --> 00:38:20,259 S2: you know, if you're talking about the total value of gold, 585 00:38:20,260 --> 00:38:23,350 S2: you know, it's trillions five, seven, ten. I don't know 586 00:38:23,350 --> 00:38:26,260 S2: what the number was because Bitcoin's like at the time 587 00:38:26,260 --> 00:38:29,770 S2: Bitcoin was worth half half a trillion. He was like 588 00:38:29,770 --> 00:38:32,230 S2: this could go easily to 3 to 5 trillion. I 589 00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:34,359 S2: mean if you start getting the right mechanisms in it, 590 00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:35,200 S2: that's true. 591 00:38:35,590 --> 00:38:38,859 S3: I think that's right. I think that's like around 200,000. 592 00:38:39,070 --> 00:38:43,660 S3: That's what happened with exchange traded funds generally I, I, 593 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,810 S3: I was on teams that invented some of the earlier 594 00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:50,080 S3: exchange traded funds. And at the time everyone said these 595 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,470 S3: are ridiculous. They're never going to get any traction against 596 00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:56,319 S3: mutual funds. Why would anyone buy an exchange rate? But 597 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,279 S3: now everyone owns exchange traded funds. And that was only 598 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:06,669 S3: 1520 years ago. So yes, 3 trillion wouldn't surprise me 599 00:39:06,670 --> 00:39:11,080 S3: in the least. We were at 3 trillion, uh, before 600 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,180 S3: Sam happened. Okay. Uh, we were at 3 trillion, so 601 00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:20,470 S3: that wouldn't surprise me. Um, but if it goes up 602 00:39:20,469 --> 00:39:26,020 S3: by several magnitudes, that's because of fiscal irresponsibility and because 603 00:39:26,020 --> 00:39:28,900 S3: the United States has become a banana republic. And I 604 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:30,310 S3: don't want that to happen. 605 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,600 S1: Well, we've certainly seen signs of it. Uh, yes. And 606 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,840 S1: I think that's, uh, cause for concern for everybody. I 607 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,759 S1: do want to ask you this. You were with the 608 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,000 S1: SEC during the Reagan Bush. Did you have any interactions 609 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,380 S1: with President Reagan? 610 00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:52,630 S3: One time as he was leaving office. Uh huh. Uh, 611 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:57,610 S3: I remember it vividly. I was just in an audience, 612 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,250 S3: and we waved back and forth, and I saw him, 613 00:40:00,250 --> 00:40:03,640 S3: and I was never in the white House. And, you know, 614 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,440 S3: I wish I'd had that opportunity, but I viewed myself as. 615 00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:11,420 S3: You know, I was a young lawyer in an important 616 00:40:11,420 --> 00:40:14,930 S3: regulatory agency, but I worked directly for a man who 617 00:40:14,930 --> 00:40:18,110 S3: was appointed by President Reagan. But I wasn't appointed by 618 00:40:18,110 --> 00:40:18,740 S3: him myself. 619 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,750 S1: One degree of separation. 620 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:24,200 S3: One degree of several. But I had just in. Immense 621 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,609 S3: respect for him, and, uh. And, uh, I miss him. 622 00:40:29,690 --> 00:40:32,540 S1: Where, uh uh, where should people stalk you? What website 623 00:40:32,540 --> 00:40:33,080 S1: or social? 624 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,370 S3: Oh. Oh, well, on Twitter, uh, or X, I'm at 625 00:40:37,370 --> 00:40:41,720 S3: Doherty lawyer. That's a at d a u g h 626 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,430 S3: e r t y lawyer. Uh, but I'm also on LinkedIn. 627 00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:49,700 S3: I'm the Patrick Doherty in Chicago. If you go to 628 00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:54,350 S3: Patrick Doherty in Chicago and maybe you type in Cornell, 629 00:40:54,350 --> 00:40:57,920 S3: something like that, because I teach at Cornell Law School. Uh, 630 00:40:58,010 --> 00:41:00,290 S3: I post a lot of material there, actually. 631 00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:03,350 S1: Excellent. Well, we will, uh, we'll definitely link to that. 632 00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:05,360 S1: We appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. 633 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,430 S1: It's been a very enlightening. 634 00:41:07,730 --> 00:41:12,710 S3: Thanks for having me, guys. This is an important development. And, uh, so, um, 635 00:41:13,219 --> 00:41:15,020 S3: you know, I'm happy to spend the time with you. 636 00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:19,040 S2: Thank you so much to Patrick Doherty. And you can 637 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,060 S2: follow him on the Twitter x at Doherty Lawyer. Make 638 00:41:23,060 --> 00:41:25,879 S2: sure to connect with him. Really smart dude, doing some 639 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,719 S2: interesting things and teaching the youngins over there at Cornell 640 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,710 S2: Law School all about the digital assets. And we saw, 641 00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:37,010 S2: you know, Bitcoin and the whole crypto market has gone down. 642 00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:41,240 S2: It's like $1.6 trillion right now, up from down from 643 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,900 S2: 1.8 something. So, you know, it looks like that ETF 644 00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:49,009 S2: was actually something where oh sell the news. And um, 645 00:41:49,010 --> 00:41:52,219 S2: but uh that's the way it goes. The having is 646 00:41:52,219 --> 00:41:54,230 S2: coming up folks. We're going to be seeing that in 647 00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:57,680 S2: early May. So a lot of great stuff happening. And 648 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,590 S2: it's just calm before the storm. Kind of seems to me. 649 00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:05,180 S1: You have to be in the know as the having approaches. 650 00:42:05,180 --> 00:42:08,420 S1: And uh, for those of you watching the video version 651 00:42:08,420 --> 00:42:10,790 S1: of the show, you'll be able to follow along with 652 00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:14,210 S1: the visuals here. The crypto bull dragons are gone here 653 00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:16,790 S1: they all are. Uh, and each one is a one 654 00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:19,910 S1: of one that has an owner. Might be bulls Aldrin. 655 00:42:19,910 --> 00:42:22,610 S1: It might be the bull market baron. It could be 656 00:42:22,610 --> 00:42:26,870 S1: opulent onyx. They are all in the diamond hands of 657 00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:30,169 S1: 24 people. And, uh, each one of you is going 658 00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:33,650 S1: to receive an airdrop of this NFT. 659 00:42:33,830 --> 00:42:36,770 S4: Prospero Draconis, this is. 660 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,100 S1: What is this guy? Look at him. He's just golden 661 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:41,630 S1: bitcoins everywhere. 662 00:42:41,989 --> 00:42:44,930 S2: So the whole thought of this is, you know, let's 663 00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:48,410 S2: create some fun amulet stuff of power for this next 664 00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:50,570 S2: bull run. Right. This is the year of the Dragon. 665 00:42:50,570 --> 00:42:52,489 S2: It's the crypto bull run is up here for the 666 00:42:52,489 --> 00:42:56,120 S2: next 18 months or so in theory. And so hopefully, 667 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,870 S2: if you possess this, then, uh, the the crypto gods 668 00:42:59,870 --> 00:43:01,520 S2: will shine down upon thee. 669 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,310 S1: So along with this NFT that we're going to drop 670 00:43:04,310 --> 00:43:08,420 S1: to the 24 holders, uh, when you click on your NFT, 671 00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:12,200 S1: if you are a holder, you'll see a place in there, uh, 672 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,120 S1: which I can't from this account because this is the 673 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,910 S1: master account. If you hold it, then you will be 674 00:43:16,910 --> 00:43:20,300 S1: able to see a link that says Bonus content. And 675 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:24,110 S1: that bonus content is only viewable through Bad Crypto Dot 676 00:43:24,110 --> 00:43:27,890 S1: uncut network. That's going to give you a link to 677 00:43:27,890 --> 00:43:30,410 S1: the zoom. When are we doing the zoom? It's going 678 00:43:30,410 --> 00:43:32,600 S1: to happen at Travis came up with this and it 679 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,170 S1: makes perfect sense. Since it's 2024, it's going to happen 680 00:43:36,170 --> 00:43:42,859 S1: on two for 2024. February 4th, 2024. That is a Sunday. 681 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:47,930 S1: What time? 2 to 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time makes 682 00:43:47,930 --> 00:43:50,750 S1: perfect sense, except that I'm Atlantic Standard Time and it's 683 00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:53,239 S1: 3 to 5 for me. Uh, and Travis. 684 00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:54,060 S2: Is it's 1 to. 685 00:43:54,060 --> 00:43:56,630 S1: 3 for 1 to 3, but it makes for a 686 00:43:56,630 --> 00:44:00,950 S1: great copy. So on February 4th, two for 2024, from 687 00:44:00,950 --> 00:44:04,490 S1: 2 to 4 eastern, a link to the private zoom 688 00:44:04,489 --> 00:44:06,140 S1: where you'll be able to join us. And we're going 689 00:44:06,140 --> 00:44:07,520 S1: to talk about all kinds of stuff. It's going to 690 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,609 S1: be very spontaneous. We'll answer your questions, we'll drop some 691 00:44:10,610 --> 00:44:16,009 S1: knowledge and, uh, we'll maybe give some advice, not financial. Um, 692 00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:18,290 S1: it's going to be a good time. So I want 693 00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:19,550 S1: to be there. It's going to be great. 694 00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:23,690 S2: We're going to talk about Bitcoin ETFs and the implications 695 00:44:23,690 --> 00:44:26,360 S2: for decentralization. You guys. 696 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,969 S1: Know. And so this should be encouragement for all of you. 697 00:44:28,969 --> 00:44:33,020 S1: All that don't yet have the bad crypto Nifty Club 698 00:44:33,020 --> 00:44:37,009 S1: NFT that gets you entry into this whole world of 699 00:44:37,010 --> 00:44:41,120 S1: free airdrops. And a bonus stuff that we're releasing. You 700 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,810 S1: go to bad crypto dot uncut dot network, and the 701 00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:47,509 S1: last NFT on there is the first one we created. 702 00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:51,980 S1: It is the spinny bad Crypto Nifty Club card. Um, 703 00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:54,020 S1: you can pay for it with a credit card if 704 00:44:54,020 --> 00:44:57,469 S1: you don't want to, you know, pay Ethereum or use gas. 705 00:44:57,469 --> 00:45:02,270 S1: And right now it is $4.43. It's pegged to, I think, 706 00:45:02,270 --> 00:45:06,049 S1: 0.002 ETH. And once you have this in your wallet, 707 00:45:06,050 --> 00:45:09,350 S1: it's yours. You'll start getting airdrops as we create cool 708 00:45:09,350 --> 00:45:14,030 S1: stuff and your world will open to new bad opportunities. 709 00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:16,580 S2: There you go, there you go. And we're grateful for 710 00:45:16,580 --> 00:45:18,680 S2: you guys for tuning in to the show. Uh, we're 711 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,600 S2: extra grateful for the 24 that want to be a 712 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,150 S2: part of the little mastermind group. All the rest of 713 00:45:23,150 --> 00:45:25,250 S2: you guys do. Not nearly as cool, but that's okay. 714 00:45:25,250 --> 00:45:28,279 S2: You can become cooler. Uh, because all you really need 715 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,320 S2: to do is to. What is it? What do they 716 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,040 S2: need to do. 717 00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:33,890 S1: Buy the NFT? Oh, no, not that one. That will 718 00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:36,230 S1: make them cooler, though, if they own the bad Crypto 719 00:45:36,530 --> 00:45:37,250 S1: Club NFT. 720 00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:39,500 S2: You don't have the NFT. What you can do instead 721 00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:40,520 S2: is just stay back. 722 00:45:41,950 --> 00:46:00,299 S1: Yeah. That's all you got to do. Who's bad. The 723 00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:03,839 S1: Bad Crypto Podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC. 724 00:46:03,870 --> 00:46:06,690 S1: The content of the show, the videos and the website 725 00:46:06,690 --> 00:46:10,830 S1: is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's 726 00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:14,730 S1: not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment 727 00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:17,790 S1: or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any 728 00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:21,420 S1: decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based 729 00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:25,950 S1: on this information without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation 730 00:46:25,950 --> 00:46:29,370 S1: with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading 731 00:46:29,370 --> 00:46:34,439 S1: of bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone 732 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,840 S1: wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens 733 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,200 S1: mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent, 734 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:46,460 S1: professional financial advisor. All you gotta do is to stay 735 00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:51,740 S1: bad and buy a NFT. You won't be sad then. 736 00:46:52,969 --> 00:46:53,629 S5: Wow. 737 00:46:55,620 --> 00:46:57,419 S1: Who did that? All I want to do is have 738 00:46:57,420 --> 00:46:58,560 S1: some fun. That. What was that. 739 00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:59,370 S6: Song? Crow? 740 00:46:59,370 --> 00:47:03,690 S1: Sheryl Crow, eat some, eat crow. Sheryl just busted you 741 00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:04,170 S1: out there. 742 00:47:04,290 --> 00:47:05,549 S2: That was by Joel. 743 00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:08,250 S1: No, that song would have been a huge hit for us. 744 00:47:08,250 --> 00:47:10,560 S1: Why are you stealing our melodies, Sheryl Crow? 745 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:12,690 S6: That's not. 746 00:47:12,690 --> 00:47:13,920 S1: Nice. Don't do that. 747 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,529 S2: For future melodies that we're going to come up with 748 00:47:16,530 --> 00:47:17,850 S2: in our heads years down the road. 749 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:18,779 S6: That's right. 750 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:33,239 S7: Come, lend me your ears. Girls and boys. Bout those 751 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:40,259 S7: magic little kernels of joy. Versatile in the kitchen. Every 752 00:47:40,260 --> 00:47:43,440 S7: day I'm wishing for that plant that we love so 753 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:50,890 S7: much more than soy. Yes, it's corn syrup or. Boil. Grinder. 754 00:47:50,890 --> 00:47:58,830 S7: Pop it. Grilled or boiled? Yes. It's. Need it today. 755 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,899 S7: It'll remind you. 756 00:48:01,140 --> 00:48:03,570 UU: On down the way.