WEBVTT - Learning about Zero Knowledge Proofs 0:00:00.090 --> 0:00:03.000 A young man walks into the bar and says, Give 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.210 me a vodka tonic. Unsure of the man's age, the 0:00:06.210 --> 0:00:09.810 bartender must ask to see his ID in order to 0:00:09.810 --> 0:00:12.389 prove that he is old enough to order the drink. 0:00:12.810 --> 0:00:15.750 What if the bartender knew from the blockchain that the 0:00:15.750 --> 0:00:18.810 guy was old enough without even asking for an ID? 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.370 He'd be accepting proof with no knowledge of actually having 0:00:23.370 --> 0:00:28.260 seen the proof. That's zero knowledge, proof or Z. K Pete. 0:00:28.650 --> 0:00:31.230 Today on the show, we welcome Dore Garbus of the 0:00:31.230 --> 0:00:35.460 Mina Foundation to discuss Z KPIs and why they're essential 0:00:35.460 --> 0:00:39.989 to building a Web3 future with privacy and scalability in mind. 0:00:40.229 --> 0:00:43.080 By the time we're done, you'll have proof that you've 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:49.080 got some knowledge of zero knowledge proof and episode number 668. 0:00:50.380 --> 0:00:52.000 Of the Bad Crypto podcast. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:59.350 Five, four, three. How are you all working the there? 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:09.640 Who's bad? I. 0:01:20.550 --> 0:01:23.940 And you have proof of listening right now. How do 0:01:23.940 --> 0:01:27.540 we know? Because you're listening to this in your ears, 0:01:27.540 --> 0:01:29.670 but we don't know that you're listening to it. So 0:01:29.670 --> 0:01:33.240 I guess we've got no proof that you are because 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:35.220 you're we don't know who it is. There's privacy, like 0:01:35.220 --> 0:01:36.780 when you're listening to shows, right? Yeah. 0:01:37.470 --> 0:01:39.840 That is actually really true. The only time that we 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.770 know if you're real, who's tuning in is for one, 0:01:43.770 --> 0:01:46.020 looking at our analytics and seeing the numbers. And then 0:01:46.020 --> 0:01:49.530 to when you leave a review, mostly when you leave 0:01:49.530 --> 0:01:52.050 a positive review is when we really know who you are. 0:01:52.050 --> 0:01:54.660 But when you leave a negative review, it really helps 0:01:54.660 --> 0:01:57.570 us peer into your soul and see how awful of 0:01:57.570 --> 0:01:58.620 a person you truly are. 0:01:58.830 --> 0:02:00.930 Yeah, and we've got one of those for today. But 0:02:00.930 --> 0:02:06.840 we've also got we've got an introduction to Zero Knowledge 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.630 Proof today, which I think is really interesting once you 0:02:09.630 --> 0:02:13.260 understand exactly what this is all about. And so Lord 0:02:13.260 --> 0:02:17.220 Travis is going to come up with a zero knowledge NFT, 0:02:17.220 --> 0:02:20.490 a commemorative NFT that we are going to give away 0:02:20.490 --> 0:02:23.339 for free. And we'll tell you how to do that 0:02:23.550 --> 0:02:27.510 after our interview today. So, Trev, should we get on 0:02:27.510 --> 0:02:31.230 with the show and and welcome door through the door. 0:02:31.410 --> 0:02:33.330 Come on, baby. Light my fire. Let's go. 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:41.829 There are many terminologies bandied about in the blockchain world, 0:02:41.830 --> 0:02:45.340 and one of them that has surfaced again and again. 0:02:45.340 --> 0:02:49.360 I must confess, I know very little about what this 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.639 actually means and how it actually works. 0:02:51.860 --> 0:02:53.739 Would you say would you say you have zero knowledge 0:02:53.740 --> 0:02:54.040 about it? 0:02:54.070 --> 0:02:56.320 I have zero knowledge about it and I am the 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:02.590 proof that I have zero knowledge about Z CP'S zero 0:03:02.590 --> 0:03:06.750 knowledge proof. And that's why I'm pleased to welcome Dawg 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.530 Barbash to the show. He is with the MENA Protocol. 0:03:10.550 --> 0:03:12.520 In fact, he is the head of the ecosystem at 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.070 the MENA Foundation, and we're going to find out what 0:03:15.070 --> 0:03:17.470 he means when he's going to tell us all about 0:03:17.470 --> 0:03:21.130 Zeke's piece today. Dore, welcome to the Bad Crypto podcast, sir. 0:03:22.330 --> 0:03:23.830 Hello. Hello. Good to be here. 0:03:24.580 --> 0:03:27.670 Good to have you. I really I know so little 0:03:27.669 --> 0:03:31.329 about zero knowledge proof, and I want to learn today. 0:03:31.330 --> 0:03:36.130 So why don't we start on a really high level? Like, 0:03:36.130 --> 0:03:39.190 make it so easy that if I were a fifth 0:03:39.190 --> 0:03:42.640 grader and you were explaining it to me, that I 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:43.450 would understand. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:50.080 Yeah, sure. I'll do my best. I think the maybe 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.150 let's start by why is it good for why do 0:03:52.150 --> 0:03:54.640 we even care about the KP? I think that's a 0:03:54.640 --> 0:04:00.040 really great way to start. Okay, three, three main things. Why? Why? 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.230 This is even like a thing that you need to learn. 0:04:03.790 --> 0:04:08.950 So first of all, scalability. Okay, We know. We know 0:04:08.950 --> 0:04:11.710 in blockchain space we have a tiny bit of issue 0:04:11.710 --> 0:04:17.110 around scalability and their knowledge. Proof is is one way 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:23.080 to to address it. And you actually see significant activity 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:29.020 on there too, that are building scalability solutions using ZEEK APIs. Okay. 0:04:29.650 --> 0:04:34.359 The second one we call it for synchronous. Okay. If 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:40.850 you look at if you think about. Like blockchains like 0:04:41.029 --> 0:04:45.169 Ethereum or a lot of other blockchains where you have 0:04:45.170 --> 0:04:50.920 all these miners staking faking polls, you know, that that 0:04:50.930 --> 0:04:53.690 need to validate the blockchain to make sure it's decentralized. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.800 One of the things that one of the big hurdles 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.480 they have is the fact they have to download the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:04.279 entire fricking blockchain to validate it. And now it's like 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.029 many gigabytes of size. And actually it's going to grow 0:05:08.029 --> 0:05:09.789 and grow and grow over time to be terabytes of 0:05:09.830 --> 0:05:13.100 size at 1.21 gigawatts. 0:05:14.089 --> 0:05:15.410 But why? Right. So much? 0:05:16.910 --> 0:05:20.180 That's right. Yeah, but it makes it you know, but 0:05:20.180 --> 0:05:24.920 it makes this idea of decentralization less accessible for everyday people. And, 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:26.480 you know, you just need to have like a giant 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.140 server farm, etc.. So with the K proofs you can 0:05:30.140 --> 0:05:36.050 actually and what minute they're, they've actually compressed, condensed this, this, 0:05:36.050 --> 0:05:41.020 this validation from many, many gigabytes into 22 kilobytes of 0:05:41.029 --> 0:05:43.700 something that can fit on your wrist and your pocket watch, 0:05:43.700 --> 0:05:47.330 you know, a smartphone. And I think the third one, 0:05:47.660 --> 0:05:54.200 and which I personally find the most exciting, is privacy. Okay. 0:05:54.260 --> 0:05:56.589 We know this is a big, big topic right now. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:00.950 I think everybody cares right now about privacy and how 0:06:01.250 --> 0:06:03.919 every day it seems like, you know, our life is 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.640 becoming less and less private. We're getting more and more surveilled, 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.360 less feel urgency about where our data even comes from. 0:06:12.330 --> 0:06:15.780 And here's zero knowledge proof. This is a bit like 0:06:15.779 --> 0:06:19.289 dark magic. Okay? It can. It gives you the ability. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:26.270 To prove, you know, something without revealing what it is 0:06:26.270 --> 0:06:30.859 that you know to the other party. So I give 0:06:30.860 --> 0:06:36.780 you an example. Let's say I want to buy a beer. Okay. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.320 And I need to prove to someone I'm over 21. 0:06:40.250 --> 0:06:42.770 I don't know. And it's over 21 or 18, but 0:06:42.890 --> 0:06:43.489 I can. 0:06:43.500 --> 0:06:46.480 I can approve you. You look like you're over 21. Oh, yeah. 0:06:47.339 --> 0:06:48.169 Yeah, yeah. 0:06:48.529 --> 0:06:49.740 He's just a very hurt. 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.719 Someone asked me how I did this to. It's never 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:59.660 happens to me. But, you know, with their knowledge, first 0:06:59.690 --> 0:07:02.810 you can prove you're 21 without saying how exactly old 0:07:02.810 --> 0:07:06.229 you are. Right. Like the bartender should have. No. Like, 0:07:06.950 --> 0:07:10.220 why should the bartender know you're whatever, 43? You know, 0:07:10.220 --> 0:07:15.330 that's none of their concern, so. And so this way, 0:07:15.330 --> 0:07:17.429 with using this proof, you can you can do it. 0:07:17.430 --> 0:07:20.550 And a lot of different types of data, you know, 0:07:20.550 --> 0:07:27.890 from like showing your for example, that your. Eligible to 0:07:27.890 --> 0:07:32.510 apply for a loan without printing out your bank account 0:07:32.510 --> 0:07:36.830 in detail and showing all your audio bank transactions and 0:07:36.830 --> 0:07:39.440 of the balances in all your account and spreading it 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:40.430 to many, many people. 0:07:41.310 --> 0:07:44.880 And it's kind of like being precourt, like being pre-qualified 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.090 for a loan, right? You're like, you gone to the banks, 0:07:48.090 --> 0:07:49.770 you're qualified, and now you're going to go to a 0:07:49.770 --> 0:07:56.490 lender and and the bank has vouched for you. Now 0:07:56.490 --> 0:07:59.610 they're going to ask for proof of that, right? But 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:02.970 it's the same basic concept, right? 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.140 Yeah, I can basically I can mathematically prove to you 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.800 that I'm indeed over 21, you know, and I have 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.230 mathematical proof to believe it, and I don't need to 0:08:13.710 --> 0:08:17.130 take out my I.D. or I don't need to print 0:08:17.130 --> 0:08:21.810 out my bank records and I can prove I'm a 0:08:21.810 --> 0:08:25.850 real human without sharing with you my Social Security number. 0:08:25.860 --> 0:08:29.250 You know, all this stuff. And it's it's a game changer. 0:08:29.580 --> 0:08:32.340 It's a game. Like, it's hard to think about it 0:08:32.340 --> 0:08:34.260 because we live in a world where we have to 0:08:34.260 --> 0:08:37.109 do that stuff, like, all the time. So we kind 0:08:37.110 --> 0:08:42.239 of take it as, you know, for granted. But in 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:48.200 kind of like both, let's say, zero knowledge privacy world. And. 0:08:49.620 --> 0:08:51.930 People will be able to do a lot more things 0:08:52.410 --> 0:08:56.100 without being afraid about their identity being exposed or their 0:08:56.100 --> 0:08:58.950 private information being exposed. It will enable us to do. 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:05.160 Way more things in our everyday lives. I mean, you know, 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.950 I think just like the basic really basic stuff, like 0:09:08.070 --> 0:09:13.199 being able to to vote, okay, Like everybody on this 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:18.140 planet being able to vote. Proving you're a real person, 0:09:18.140 --> 0:09:20.420 you know, you have legitimacy to to vote, but not 0:09:20.420 --> 0:09:24.590 to be afraid that your identity or your vote, you know, 0:09:24.590 --> 0:09:28.850 becomes known to some ruler. Okay. Like so again, as 0:09:28.850 --> 0:09:35.170 Americans or Westerners, we kind of take these things. It's 0:09:35.170 --> 0:09:37.900 pretty obvious, but it's actually not a right that's universally 0:09:37.900 --> 0:09:40.090 accessible for everybody on this planet. 0:09:41.260 --> 0:09:44.640 And yeah, it sounds it sounds interesting what you're talking about, 0:09:44.650 --> 0:09:46.599 but I think that there's still a core part of 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.340 this that people don't understand yet. Right. It sounds great. Okay. 0:09:50.350 --> 0:09:52.630 Zero knowledge proof. You don't need you don't need knowledge 0:09:52.630 --> 0:09:54.190 to be able to do that. But how is it 0:09:54.190 --> 0:09:57.250 not manipulated? How is it that it knows it goes 0:09:57.250 --> 0:10:00.670 with proof of work? I'm able to see the blockchain. 0:10:00.670 --> 0:10:03.160 I'm able to see all the transactions. It can be 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.730 proved that this is accurate. That's not accurate. If you're 0:10:06.730 --> 0:10:09.280 condensing that down to 22 kilobytes and it can be 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.130 on a thing, how exactly does that work and how 0:10:12.130 --> 0:10:15.790 exactly is that a better system that would not be manipulated? 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.739 Yeah. I think this is yeah, I think, you know, 0:10:20.740 --> 0:10:23.550 it's kind of funny because I think also behind the, 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.590 you know, these abstractions of the blockchains, you kind of 0:10:26.590 --> 0:10:34.150 have extremely complicated cryptographic mechanisms, right, that are not really 0:10:34.870 --> 0:10:37.540 not everyday person can understand them, you know, But although 0:10:37.540 --> 0:10:40.059 they are do end up end up in the blockchain. 0:10:40.750 --> 0:10:44.939 So as you know, as proof, it's actually very, very, very, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:50.329 very similar. There is a bunch of. Cryptographic primitives like 0:10:50.330 --> 0:10:55.880 this very high math that I probably don't want to 0:10:56.300 --> 0:10:58.309 make now. And I'm actually not sure if I could 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.100 be the best person. Like, you know, I'm not like 0:11:01.730 --> 0:11:04.610 a technical genius. Like other people in the foundation. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:05.449 Travis could. 0:11:05.450 --> 0:11:06.000 Go into. 0:11:06.020 --> 0:11:08.780 My maths, just give him a moment to light up 0:11:08.780 --> 0:11:10.340 and give him some equations. 0:11:10.370 --> 0:11:12.800 Well, the thing is that our listeners, our listeners, a 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.750 lot of them, you know, they're kind of new getting 0:11:14.750 --> 0:11:17.060 into the space or they're trying to sort of get 0:11:17.059 --> 0:11:20.510 a general gist of what it means. And it sounds interesting. 0:11:20.750 --> 0:11:24.200 Zero zero protocol you zero proof. You don't need, you know, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.500 zero knowledge proof, Right. Okay. So you don't need knowledge 0:11:27.500 --> 0:11:30.200 to be able to do this. But that goes against 0:11:30.290 --> 0:11:32.060 a lot of what we've told a lot of people 0:11:32.059 --> 0:11:34.340 throughout the years is that you need to have some 0:11:34.340 --> 0:11:37.070 of this proof. That's what makes blockchain great, is you 0:11:37.070 --> 0:11:40.850 can tell this, oh, this $10 here is this person's 0:11:40.850 --> 0:11:42.980 it's in this wallet now it's moved over to this 0:11:42.980 --> 0:11:46.010 person's wallet. So I think that maybe the the Z 0:11:46.130 --> 0:11:49.370 Z copy of it all is a little confusing is like, 0:11:49.730 --> 0:11:52.790 who's the oracle who holds that truth? And if we 0:11:52.790 --> 0:11:53.420 don't know it. 0:11:54.830 --> 0:11:57.380 Yeah, it is. So it's actually in that way it's very, 0:11:57.380 --> 0:12:02.190 very similar to the blockchain. Right. So you have. You know, 0:12:02.190 --> 0:12:06.120 the entire blockchain and payments. You know, it's all it's 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.930 all basically about math, right? It's all about these cryptographic 0:12:09.929 --> 0:12:14.729 primitives that that work and cannot be broken or hacked to. 0:12:15.179 --> 0:12:17.940 And this is just 200 notes. Perfect. Just this is 0:12:17.940 --> 0:12:25.050 just applies for. For proving computations in the same way 0:12:25.050 --> 0:12:30.490 that you prove transactions. So, you know, without getting too 0:12:30.490 --> 0:12:33.700 much into the details, there's some hard math in the 0:12:33.700 --> 0:12:37.000 background that that works and makes sure that the proof 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.790 is legit. And this is actually like the proof you 0:12:39.790 --> 0:12:46.280 claiming to have. Is actually like a hard proof. Of course, 0:12:46.309 --> 0:12:52.520 this requires significant computational research says. But again, this thing 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.910 for you, you will be able to see them on 0:12:55.910 --> 0:12:56.510 the blockchain. 0:12:57.140 --> 0:13:00.730 Yeah, because when we're talking about proof or it's 100% 0:13:00.740 --> 0:13:02.929 like there's no well, we think we can prove it. 0:13:03.230 --> 0:13:06.770 It needs to be factual. It needs to be completely legitimate. 0:13:06.980 --> 0:13:10.070 So when we're talking about privacy especially, which I would 0:13:10.070 --> 0:13:14.660 imagine is the biggest concern for people that are supporting 0:13:14.660 --> 0:13:18.320 and looking at ways to move zero knowledge proof forward, 0:13:18.740 --> 0:13:23.390 there can be no ambiguity, just like the Bitcoin blockchain 0:13:23.390 --> 0:13:26.810 has to be completely accurate. There's no room for error 0:13:26.809 --> 0:13:30.500 in the ledger whatsoever. Not even one Satoshi can be 0:13:30.500 --> 0:13:35.720 off zero knowledge. Proof means this is completely accurate. There's 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.870 no room for fake news in this protocol. 0:13:41.940 --> 0:13:45.930 Yeah. I mean, it's at least about the specific facts 0:13:45.929 --> 0:13:50.130 that are being computed and taken as inputs. So it's 0:13:50.130 --> 0:13:51.990 kind of like, you know, in the end of it all, 0:13:51.990 --> 0:13:55.940 you know, it's, you know. In theory, you could have 0:13:55.940 --> 0:13:58.579 fake news, although like the specific fact, you know, about 0:13:58.580 --> 0:14:02.000 the person's age being above a certain number, you know, 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.969 it will be true and it will be proven. You know, 0:14:05.510 --> 0:14:07.939 there's still a limit to what what can be proven 0:14:07.940 --> 0:14:08.720 and actually proven. 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.199 And now I think, you know, a lot of what's 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.130 happening on Ethereum is the scalability is not good. I mean, 0:14:16.130 --> 0:14:18.109 I saw a tweet just the other day from a 0:14:18.110 --> 0:14:22.910 top game developer who said, look, though, most blockchain gaming 0:14:22.910 --> 0:14:25.310 is not going to happen on Ethereum. It just can't 0:14:25.310 --> 0:14:29.300 because it can't process enough power at one time. There's 0:14:29.300 --> 0:14:32.330 not enough transactions and it would cost way too much 0:14:32.330 --> 0:14:37.040 money and gas to play some of these games on Ethereum. Now, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.530 what you're saying to us, it seems like, is that 0:14:39.530 --> 0:14:43.670 with the Z pick Z, KCP excuse me, zero knowledge 0:14:43.670 --> 0:14:47.120 proof is that you have an oracle that says, Here's 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.480 the truth and we have to trust that. But then 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.490 we could do a lot more transactions per second. So 0:14:53.490 --> 0:14:58.580 it would seem like Web3 metaverse, blockchain gaming, game fight 0:14:58.580 --> 0:15:01.700 type of stuff, play to earn could work a lot better, 0:15:01.940 --> 0:15:04.430 maybe on one of these types of things. And you 0:15:04.430 --> 0:15:08.060 said that Z KCP is like a blockchain. Are you 0:15:08.060 --> 0:15:09.650 saying it's not a blockchain? 0:15:11.950 --> 0:15:15.760 No. So if you if you think about it, to 0:15:15.830 --> 0:15:19.910 go first of all, like. You don't need to trust 0:15:20.210 --> 0:15:22.910 someone who provides as copy, you know, because you can. 0:15:23.300 --> 0:15:26.290 You can compute it yourself. Okay. So you can run. 0:15:26.300 --> 0:15:29.930 You can validate and run this calculation. It's the same 0:15:29.930 --> 0:15:37.830 s And I think a secondary thing is am. That? Yeah, 0:15:38.010 --> 0:15:40.200 One of one of the key things that can happen 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.440 in a business that can happen off chain, like the 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.450 computation can be off chain and you can actually. And 0:15:48.450 --> 0:15:49.860 I think this is like the stuff, it's kind of 0:15:49.860 --> 0:15:54.620 it's hard to wrap around. You can actually. Prove a 0:15:54.630 --> 0:16:00.620 certain computation actually took took place. Okay. So it's actually like. 0:16:01.750 --> 0:16:03.910 Better than Oracle's in a way, because you don't need 0:16:03.910 --> 0:16:09.890 to trust. And if you don't need to trust the Oracle. Am. 0:16:11.510 --> 0:16:14.900 So I think the physical piece is a group is 0:16:14.900 --> 0:16:21.070 a cryptographic primitive. And it's not necessarily a blockchain per se, 0:16:21.250 --> 0:16:25.630 but blockchain can use this cryptographic primitives. So Mina uses 0:16:25.630 --> 0:16:31.360 descriptor back to back cryptographic primitive, you know, to make 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.620 the broth, to make the blockchain process more succinct. Or 0:16:34.630 --> 0:16:39.460 we use this primitive to build zero knowledge apps. So 0:16:39.460 --> 0:16:43.570 privacy preserving apps. But but it's not the same as, 0:16:43.570 --> 0:16:46.090 you know, it's just another technology that can be on 0:16:46.090 --> 0:16:47.260 top of auction. 0:16:47.470 --> 0:16:52.540 You guys call this programmable privacy, right? So why or 0:16:52.570 --> 0:16:57.670 why is zero knowledge proof so essential for the Web3 0:16:57.670 --> 0:17:02.350 experience going forward as opposed to what are we what 0:17:02.350 --> 0:17:05.470 do we have right now apart from zero knowledge proof 0:17:05.740 --> 0:17:09.130 one knowledge proof like what's what is? If you're not 0:17:09.130 --> 0:17:11.980 using zero knowledge proof, what are you using? You're using 0:17:11.980 --> 0:17:14.229 a public blockchain, right? 0:17:16.260 --> 0:17:20.880 Yeah. Using a public blockchain, which has a lot of benefits. But, 0:17:21.750 --> 0:17:26.400 you know, let's put this analogy in your everyday life, right? Like, 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.240 imagine that every single transaction you make with your your 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.000 credit card and purchase is going to be forever posted 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.720 on the public ledger and everybody can see it, which 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.540 is basically what's going on, you know, a second or 0:17:39.540 --> 0:17:42.450 a second way to look at it. Think about if 0:17:42.450 --> 0:17:48.630 every time you you voted or. If for something or 0:17:48.630 --> 0:17:52.710 signal something, you know, everything is like under public forever, 0:17:52.710 --> 0:17:55.350 even if it's like 50 years from now, you know, 0:17:55.350 --> 0:17:58.200 and like where we're at, anything we're saying now would 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.430 probably be like, not, not be fit, right? You know, 0:18:02.430 --> 0:18:05.190 everybody can everybody can access it and connect it to 0:18:05.190 --> 0:18:12.640 you and your your offerings. Okay. Like the zero privacy here. And, 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.570 you know, this is actually I would say probably like 0:18:16.570 --> 0:18:18.730 this is worse than what's going on in Europe, too. 0:18:19.830 --> 0:18:23.490 In terms of privacy, at least at least in some applications, 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.660 you know that that private information is only visible to 0:18:27.810 --> 0:18:31.919 a few corporations. Right. Or, you know, corporations and governments 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.660 and not generally to the entire public. 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.440 And they love that. Right. The governments love the fact 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.770 that you can go in and trace where that Bitcoin 0:18:40.770 --> 0:18:43.440 came from. You can go in and trace where that 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.739 Etherium came from originally. But what you're saying is you're 0:18:46.740 --> 0:18:51.030 going to go from zero privacy to a zero knowledge proof, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.170 which will then sort of mask your identity but still 0:18:55.170 --> 0:18:58.440 allow you to transact. It seems to me that that's 0:18:58.440 --> 0:18:59.940 going to be something they're going to try to outlaw 0:18:59.970 --> 0:19:02.520 down the road, too, as they move towards this, the 0:19:02.530 --> 0:19:04.440 central bank digital currency type thing. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.230 I think there's actually a wide variety of privacy use cases. 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.669 And yeah, it's. I you know, I don't know what 0:19:15.670 --> 0:19:19.210 what people would like to legislate then or not. I 0:19:19.210 --> 0:19:23.770 just know that I just believe that that a world where. 0:19:24.810 --> 0:19:29.520 Individual privacy is is protected if is a better world. 0:19:30.060 --> 0:19:33.240 This is different than like like a monero or a 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.840 Zcash where it's a masked address, but there's still a 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.670 public chain where you can see the transaction that took place, right? 0:19:42.300 --> 0:19:46.290 I'm assuming that somehow this is like next level from that. 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.919 Well. Well, first of all, like, like, you know, make 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:58.310 me know layer one is is public and accessible, but. Yeah, 0:19:58.310 --> 0:20:02.950 when you do. When you when you were using the 0:20:03.010 --> 0:20:08.130 K apps. Yeah. That's a that's a that's a different matter. 0:20:08.130 --> 0:20:10.800 And then yeah, you can benefit from all these like. 0:20:11.869 --> 0:20:12.810 Privacy features. 0:20:12.869 --> 0:20:17.330 So so we're both really deep into Nfts. How do 0:20:17.330 --> 0:20:23.660 you see zero knowledge proof applying to, you know, Nfts and, and, 0:20:24.260 --> 0:20:28.220 you know, gaming assets and metaverse, all of this, especially 0:20:28.220 --> 0:20:30.950 when we're talking metaverse, we're really, you know, privacy could 0:20:30.950 --> 0:20:32.750 be a huge issue for people. 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.380 Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, if you can think 0:20:38.380 --> 0:20:42.690 about it together. That's very fascinating. I think. I think just. Well, 0:20:42.700 --> 0:20:45.610 I think privately owning and if it is as a starter, 0:20:45.630 --> 0:20:49.240 that's like a pretty good, good start. I also believe 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.700 that a lot of initiatives are kind of used as 0:20:51.970 --> 0:20:55.359 almost like a reputation system. Okay. Like kind of a 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:59.119 way for you to. Showing you you've been to places, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.000 you accomplished things, right? You get an NFT, you know, 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.500 it's almost becomes like a diploma. So I think people 0:21:06.500 --> 0:21:13.000 can start to add. You know, do good. Provide value. 0:21:13.030 --> 0:21:18.940 Get recognized without revealing their entire identity. And I think 0:21:18.940 --> 0:21:21.159 this is great, you know, especially if you think about. 0:21:22.090 --> 0:21:24.730 All the other spaces in third world countries where people 0:21:24.730 --> 0:21:33.990 don't even have basic human rights. And. Yeah. I don't know, like. 0:21:35.030 --> 0:21:37.820 Are there any other use cases you are also interested 0:21:37.820 --> 0:21:39.639 in or fascinated with? And if this is kind of 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.790 not my not my expertise, but it's very fun conversation. 0:21:43.830 --> 0:21:45.919 I think it's interesting when you when you're just talking 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:47.780 about all of the use cases. And so I'm looking 0:21:47.780 --> 0:21:49.640 at some other product, you know, some other places right 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.220 now where it's talking about, you know, for one, the 0:21:52.220 --> 0:21:55.689 blockchain side of things, finance and how Zeke, Zeke, KP 0:21:55.730 --> 0:21:58.790 is going to work on that. Online voting sounds really 0:21:58.790 --> 0:22:01.609 interesting to me because there's a huge problem when it 0:22:01.609 --> 0:22:04.220 comes to just mail in voting where you can where 0:22:04.220 --> 0:22:07.280 the mail in votes get sent to different addresses, sometimes 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.830 multiple people at one address, they fill them all out, 0:22:09.830 --> 0:22:12.380 drop them in a box, that vote just gets counted 0:22:12.380 --> 0:22:14.990 and that's not legit. So I would love to know 0:22:15.380 --> 0:22:20.510 how does Zero Knowledge proof work in online voting and 0:22:20.510 --> 0:22:23.120 what is the best use case that you've seen so 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:27.139 far with online voting So people could participate in something 0:22:27.140 --> 0:22:29.780 like that so they could get a feel for how 0:22:29.780 --> 0:22:31.939 legit it is? Because I don't think people at the 0:22:31.940 --> 0:22:34.699 beginning is going to trust it until they learn to 0:22:34.700 --> 0:22:35.180 trust it. 0:22:37.100 --> 0:22:40.280 Yeah, that makes sense, I think. Yeah, Well, Ted, generally 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.790 there's a bit of a legitimacy challenge right now for 0:22:43.790 --> 0:22:47.300 democracies around the world where the legitimacy of democracies are 0:22:47.300 --> 0:22:52.310 constantly challenged. And yeah, and I think having, having mathematical 0:22:52.310 --> 0:22:56.190 proofs that, you know, your vote has been, you know, 0:22:56.210 --> 0:22:59.690 your vote is real and being counted is actually would 0:22:59.690 --> 0:23:04.780 be extremely valuable in that context. And. Let's see. What 0:23:04.780 --> 0:23:05.990 what was your second question? 0:23:07.470 --> 0:23:11.580 And my question was about what what sort of online 0:23:11.580 --> 0:23:15.090 voting is out there now? Is there a use case 0:23:15.090 --> 0:23:18.030 for that where people can go and do online voting 0:23:18.030 --> 0:23:20.910 and see how it works? And then because I know 0:23:20.910 --> 0:23:24.510 that there's people who are working on different forms of 0:23:24.510 --> 0:23:28.830 trying to help people with legislation. Right. To actually give 0:23:28.830 --> 0:23:30.810 power back to the people. And it seems to me 0:23:30.810 --> 0:23:34.170 like this could be something that could help give power 0:23:34.170 --> 0:23:37.169 back to the people if it's trustworthy. Right. So people 0:23:37.170 --> 0:23:39.420 have to become excuse me, people have to become familiar 0:23:39.420 --> 0:23:44.070 with that. So what what is working People go to 0:23:44.070 --> 0:23:48.770 test online voting with with zero knowledge right now. Is 0:23:48.770 --> 0:23:49.190 there a place? 0:23:49.220 --> 0:23:54.139 Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. So. And before I 0:23:54.140 --> 0:23:57.740 worked in Muni, I was head of governance in HK, 0:23:57.740 --> 0:24:04.199 which is a cardano's main. Main development company. And where. 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:10.379 There we develop privacy. Privacy. Preserving voting. Using the KPIs 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:14.970 that actually powered our innovation fund that had more than 0:24:14.970 --> 0:24:21.030 50,000 voters participating and using this mechanism, we funded more 0:24:21.030 --> 0:24:26.940 than a thousand blockchain projects. And with and right now 0:24:26.940 --> 0:24:31.239 in meNow, we're going to do something similar. And we're 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.450 basically just you know, we just had this I mean, 0:24:34.450 --> 0:24:36.760 I think one of the really interesting and exciting things 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:41.440 about zero knowledge proof. Is it just. It's so cutting 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:47.500 edge right now that literally those early use cases and 0:24:47.500 --> 0:24:49.330 everything you talk about, like show me, show me an 0:24:49.330 --> 0:24:52.750 example of how this is being used. This is now 0:24:52.750 --> 0:24:55.750