Joel Comm: A young man walks into the bar and says, Give
Joel Comm: me a vodka tonic. Unsure of the man's age, the
Joel Comm: bartender must ask to see his ID in order to
Joel Comm: prove that he is old enough to order the drink.
Joel Comm: What if the bartender knew from the blockchain that the
Joel Comm: guy was old enough without even asking for an ID?
Joel Comm: He'd be accepting proof with no knowledge of actually having
Joel Comm: seen the proof. That's zero knowledge, proof or Z. K Pete.
Joel Comm: Today on the show, we welcome Dore Garbus of the
Joel Comm: Mina Foundation to discuss Z KPIs and why they're essential
Joel Comm: to building a Web3 future with privacy and scalability in mind.
Joel Comm: By the time we're done, you'll have proof that you've
Joel Comm: got some knowledge of zero knowledge proof and episode number 668.
Joel Comm: Of the Bad Crypto podcast.
UU: Five, four, three. How are you all working the there?
UU: Who's bad? I.
Joel Comm: And you have proof of listening right now. How do
Joel Comm: we know? Because you're listening to this in your ears,
Joel Comm: but we don't know that you're listening to it. So
Joel Comm: I guess we've got no proof that you are because
Joel Comm: you're we don't know who it is. There's privacy, like
Joel Comm: when you're listening to shows, right? Yeah.
Travis Wright: That is actually really true. The only time that we
Travis Wright: know if you're real, who's tuning in is for one,
Travis Wright: looking at our analytics and seeing the numbers. And then
Travis Wright: to when you leave a review, mostly when you leave
Travis Wright: a positive review is when we really know who you are.
Travis Wright: But when you leave a negative review, it really helps
Travis Wright: us peer into your soul and see how awful of
Travis Wright: a person you truly are.
Joel Comm: Yeah, and we've got one of those for today. But
Joel Comm: we've also got we've got an introduction to Zero Knowledge
Joel Comm: Proof today, which I think is really interesting once you
Joel Comm: understand exactly what this is all about. And so Lord
Joel Comm: Travis is going to come up with a zero knowledge NFT,
Joel Comm: a commemorative NFT that we are going to give away
Joel Comm: for free. And we'll tell you how to do that
Joel Comm: after our interview today. So, Trev, should we get on
Joel Comm: with the show and and welcome door through the door.
Travis Wright: Come on, baby. Light my fire. Let's go.
Joel Comm: There are many terminologies bandied about in the blockchain world,
Joel Comm: and one of them that has surfaced again and again.
Joel Comm: I must confess, I know very little about what this
Joel Comm: actually means and how it actually works.
Travis Wright: Would you say would you say you have zero knowledge
Travis Wright: about it?
Joel Comm: I have zero knowledge about it and I am the
Joel Comm: proof that I have zero knowledge about Z CP'S zero
Joel Comm: knowledge proof. And that's why I'm pleased to welcome Dawg
Joel Comm: Barbash to the show. He is with the MENA Protocol.
Joel Comm: In fact, he is the head of the ecosystem at
Joel Comm: the MENA Foundation, and we're going to find out what
Joel Comm: he means when he's going to tell us all about
Joel Comm: Zeke's piece today. Dore, welcome to the Bad Crypto podcast, sir.
Dor Garbash: Hello. Hello. Good to be here.
Joel Comm: Good to have you. I really I know so little
Joel Comm: about zero knowledge proof, and I want to learn today.
Joel Comm: So why don't we start on a really high level? Like,
Joel Comm: make it so easy that if I were a fifth
Joel Comm: grader and you were explaining it to me, that I
Joel Comm: would understand.
Dor Garbash: Yeah, sure. I'll do my best. I think the maybe
Dor Garbash: let's start by why is it good for why do
Dor Garbash: we even care about the KP? I think that's a
Dor Garbash: really great way to start. Okay, three, three main things. Why? Why?
Dor Garbash: This is even like a thing that you need to learn.
Dor Garbash: So first of all, scalability. Okay, We know. We know
Dor Garbash: in blockchain space we have a tiny bit of issue
Dor Garbash: around scalability and their knowledge. Proof is is one way
Dor Garbash: to to address it. And you actually see significant activity
Dor Garbash: on there too, that are building scalability solutions using ZEEK APIs. Okay.
Dor Garbash: The second one we call it for synchronous. Okay. If
Dor Garbash: you look at if you think about. Like blockchains like
Dor Garbash: Ethereum or a lot of other blockchains where you have
Dor Garbash: all these miners staking faking polls, you know, that that
Dor Garbash: need to validate the blockchain to make sure it's decentralized.
Dor Garbash: One of the things that one of the big hurdles
Dor Garbash: they have is the fact they have to download the
Dor Garbash: entire fricking blockchain to validate it. And now it's like
Dor Garbash: many gigabytes of size. And actually it's going to grow
Dor Garbash: and grow and grow over time to be terabytes of
Dor Garbash: size at 1.21 gigawatts.
Travis Wright: But why? Right. So much?
Dor Garbash: That's right. Yeah, but it makes it you know, but
Dor Garbash: it makes this idea of decentralization less accessible for everyday people. And,
Dor Garbash: you know, you just need to have like a giant
Dor Garbash: server farm, etc.. So with the K proofs you can
Dor Garbash: actually and what minute they're, they've actually compressed, condensed this, this,
Dor Garbash: this validation from many, many gigabytes into 22 kilobytes of
Dor Garbash: something that can fit on your wrist and your pocket watch,
Dor Garbash: you know, a smartphone. And I think the third one,
Dor Garbash: and which I personally find the most exciting, is privacy. Okay.
Dor Garbash: We know this is a big, big topic right now.
Dor Garbash: I think everybody cares right now about privacy and how
Dor Garbash: every day it seems like, you know, our life is
Dor Garbash: becoming less and less private. We're getting more and more surveilled,
Dor Garbash: less feel urgency about where our data even comes from.
Dor Garbash: And here's zero knowledge proof. This is a bit like
Dor Garbash: dark magic. Okay? It can. It gives you the ability.
Dor Garbash: To prove, you know, something without revealing what it is
Dor Garbash: that you know to the other party. So I give
Dor Garbash: you an example. Let's say I want to buy a beer. Okay.
Dor Garbash: And I need to prove to someone I'm over 21.
Dor Garbash: I don't know. And it's over 21 or 18, but
Dor Garbash: I can.
Travis Wright: I can approve you. You look like you're over 21. Oh, yeah.
Dor Garbash: Yeah, yeah.
Joel Comm: He's just a very hurt.
Dor Garbash: Someone asked me how I did this to. It's never
Dor Garbash: happens to me. But, you know, with their knowledge, first
Dor Garbash: you can prove you're 21 without saying how exactly old
Dor Garbash: you are. Right. Like the bartender should have. No. Like,
Dor Garbash: why should the bartender know you're whatever, 43? You know,
Dor Garbash: that's none of their concern, so. And so this way,
Dor Garbash: with using this proof, you can you can do it.
Dor Garbash: And a lot of different types of data, you know,
Dor Garbash: from like showing your for example, that your. Eligible to
Dor Garbash: apply for a loan without printing out your bank account
Dor Garbash: in detail and showing all your audio bank transactions and
Dor Garbash: of the balances in all your account and spreading it
Dor Garbash: to many, many people.
Joel Comm: And it's kind of like being precourt, like being pre-qualified
Joel Comm: for a loan, right? You're like, you gone to the banks,
Joel Comm: you're qualified, and now you're going to go to a
Joel Comm: lender and and the bank has vouched for you. Now
Joel Comm: they're going to ask for proof of that, right? But
Joel Comm: it's the same basic concept, right?
Dor Garbash: Yeah, I can basically I can mathematically prove to you
Dor Garbash: that I'm indeed over 21, you know, and I have
Dor Garbash: mathematical proof to believe it, and I don't need to
Dor Garbash: take out my I.D. or I don't need to print
Dor Garbash: out my bank records and I can prove I'm a
Dor Garbash: real human without sharing with you my Social Security number.
Dor Garbash: You know, all this stuff. And it's it's a game changer.
Dor Garbash: It's a game. Like, it's hard to think about it
Dor Garbash: because we live in a world where we have to
Dor Garbash: do that stuff, like, all the time. So we kind
Dor Garbash: of take it as, you know, for granted. But in
Dor Garbash: kind of like both, let's say, zero knowledge privacy world. And.
Dor Garbash: People will be able to do a lot more things
Dor Garbash: without being afraid about their identity being exposed or their
Dor Garbash: private information being exposed. It will enable us to do.
Dor Garbash: Way more things in our everyday lives. I mean, you know,
Dor Garbash: I think just like the basic really basic stuff, like
Dor Garbash: being able to to vote, okay, Like everybody on this
Dor Garbash: planet being able to vote. Proving you're a real person,
Dor Garbash: you know, you have legitimacy to to vote, but not
Dor Garbash: to be afraid that your identity or your vote, you know,
Dor Garbash: becomes known to some ruler. Okay. Like so again, as
Dor Garbash: Americans or Westerners, we kind of take these things. It's
Dor Garbash: pretty obvious, but it's actually not a right that's universally
Dor Garbash: accessible for everybody on this planet.
Travis Wright: And yeah, it sounds it sounds interesting what you're talking about,
Travis Wright: but I think that there's still a core part of
Travis Wright: this that people don't understand yet. Right. It sounds great. Okay.
Travis Wright: Zero knowledge proof. You don't need you don't need knowledge
Travis Wright: to be able to do that. But how is it
Travis Wright: not manipulated? How is it that it knows it goes
Travis Wright: with proof of work? I'm able to see the blockchain.
Travis Wright: I'm able to see all the transactions. It can be
Travis Wright: proved that this is accurate. That's not accurate. If you're
Travis Wright: condensing that down to 22 kilobytes and it can be
Travis Wright: on a thing, how exactly does that work and how
Travis Wright: exactly is that a better system that would not be manipulated?
Dor Garbash: Yeah. I think this is yeah, I think, you know,
Dor Garbash: it's kind of funny because I think also behind the,
Dor Garbash: you know, these abstractions of the blockchains, you kind of
Dor Garbash: have extremely complicated cryptographic mechanisms, right, that are not really
Dor Garbash: not everyday person can understand them, you know, But although
Dor Garbash: they are do end up end up in the blockchain.
Dor Garbash: So as you know, as proof, it's actually very, very, very,
Dor Garbash: very similar. There is a bunch of. Cryptographic primitives like
Dor Garbash: this very high math that I probably don't want to
Dor Garbash: make now. And I'm actually not sure if I could
Dor Garbash: be the best person. Like, you know, I'm not like
Dor Garbash: a technical genius. Like other people in the foundation.
Joel Comm: Travis could.
Dor Garbash: Go into.
Joel Comm: My maths, just give him a moment to light up
Joel Comm: and give him some equations.
Travis Wright: Well, the thing is that our listeners, our listeners, a
Travis Wright: lot of them, you know, they're kind of new getting
Travis Wright: into the space or they're trying to sort of get
Travis Wright: a general gist of what it means. And it sounds interesting.
Travis Wright: Zero zero protocol you zero proof. You don't need, you know,
Travis Wright: zero knowledge proof, Right. Okay. So you don't need knowledge
Travis Wright: to be able to do this. But that goes against
Travis Wright: a lot of what we've told a lot of people
Travis Wright: throughout the years is that you need to have some
Travis Wright: of this proof. That's what makes blockchain great, is you
Travis Wright: can tell this, oh, this $10 here is this person's
Travis Wright: it's in this wallet now it's moved over to this
Travis Wright: person's wallet. So I think that maybe the the Z
Travis Wright: Z copy of it all is a little confusing is like,
Travis Wright: who's the oracle who holds that truth? And if we
Travis Wright: don't know it.
Dor Garbash: Yeah, it is. So it's actually in that way it's very,
Dor Garbash: very similar to the blockchain. Right. So you have. You know,
Dor Garbash: the entire blockchain and payments. You know, it's all it's
Dor Garbash: all basically about math, right? It's all about these cryptographic
Dor Garbash: primitives that that work and cannot be broken or hacked to.
Dor Garbash: And this is just 200 notes. Perfect. Just this is
Dor Garbash: just applies for. For proving computations in the same way
Dor Garbash: that you prove transactions. So, you know, without getting too
Dor Garbash: much into the details, there's some hard math in the
Dor Garbash: background that that works and makes sure that the proof
Dor Garbash: is legit. And this is actually like the proof you
Dor Garbash: claiming to have. Is actually like a hard proof. Of course,
Dor Garbash: this requires significant computational research says. But again, this thing
Dor Garbash: for you, you will be able to see them on
Dor Garbash: the blockchain.
Joel Comm: Yeah, because when we're talking about proof or it's 100%
Joel Comm: like there's no well, we think we can prove it.
Joel Comm: It needs to be factual. It needs to be completely legitimate.
Joel Comm: So when we're talking about privacy especially, which I would
Joel Comm: imagine is the biggest concern for people that are supporting
Joel Comm: and looking at ways to move zero knowledge proof forward,
Joel Comm: there can be no ambiguity, just like the Bitcoin blockchain
Joel Comm: has to be completely accurate. There's no room for error
Joel Comm: in the ledger whatsoever. Not even one Satoshi can be
Joel Comm: off zero knowledge. Proof means this is completely accurate. There's
Joel Comm: no room for fake news in this protocol.
Dor Garbash: Yeah. I mean, it's at least about the specific facts
Dor Garbash: that are being computed and taken as inputs. So it's
Dor Garbash: kind of like, you know, in the end of it all,
Dor Garbash: you know, it's, you know. In theory, you could have
Dor Garbash: fake news, although like the specific fact, you know, about
Dor Garbash: the person's age being above a certain number, you know,
Dor Garbash: it will be true and it will be proven. You know,
Dor Garbash: there's still a limit to what what can be proven
Dor Garbash: and actually proven.
Travis Wright: And now I think, you know, a lot of what's
Travis Wright: happening on Ethereum is the scalability is not good. I mean,
Travis Wright: I saw a tweet just the other day from a
Travis Wright: top game developer who said, look, though, most blockchain gaming
Travis Wright: is not going to happen on Ethereum. It just can't
Travis Wright: because it can't process enough power at one time. There's
Travis Wright: not enough transactions and it would cost way too much
Travis Wright: money and gas to play some of these games on Ethereum. Now,
Travis Wright: what you're saying to us, it seems like, is that
Travis Wright: with the Z pick Z, KCP excuse me, zero knowledge
Travis Wright: proof is that you have an oracle that says, Here's
Travis Wright: the truth and we have to trust that. But then
Travis Wright: we could do a lot more transactions per second. So
Travis Wright: it would seem like Web3 metaverse, blockchain gaming, game fight
Travis Wright: type of stuff, play to earn could work a lot better,
Travis Wright: maybe on one of these types of things. And you
Travis Wright: said that Z KCP is like a blockchain. Are you
Travis Wright: saying it's not a blockchain?
Dor Garbash: No. So if you if you think about it, to
Dor Garbash: go first of all, like. You don't need to trust
Dor Garbash: someone who provides as copy, you know, because you can.
Dor Garbash: You can compute it yourself. Okay. So you can run.
Dor Garbash: You can validate and run this calculation. It's the same
Dor Garbash: s And I think a secondary thing is am. That? Yeah,
Dor Garbash: One of one of the key things that can happen
Dor Garbash: in a business that can happen off chain, like the
Dor Garbash: computation can be off chain and you can actually. And
Dor Garbash: I think this is like the stuff, it's kind of
Dor Garbash: it's hard to wrap around. You can actually. Prove a
Dor Garbash: certain computation actually took took place. Okay. So it's actually like.
Dor Garbash: Better than Oracle's in a way, because you don't need
Dor Garbash: to trust. And if you don't need to trust the Oracle. Am.
Dor Garbash: So I think the physical piece is a group is
Dor Garbash: a cryptographic primitive. And it's not necessarily a blockchain per se,
Dor Garbash: but blockchain can use this cryptographic primitives. So Mina uses
Dor Garbash: descriptor back to back cryptographic primitive, you know, to make
Dor Garbash: the broth, to make the blockchain process more succinct. Or
Dor Garbash: we use this primitive to build zero knowledge apps. So
Dor Garbash: privacy preserving apps. But but it's not the same as,
Dor Garbash: you know, it's just another technology that can be on
Dor Garbash: top of auction.
Joel Comm: You guys call this programmable privacy, right? So why or
Joel Comm: why is zero knowledge proof so essential for the Web3
Joel Comm: experience going forward as opposed to what are we what
Joel Comm: do we have right now apart from zero knowledge proof
Joel Comm: one knowledge proof like what's what is? If you're not
Joel Comm: using zero knowledge proof, what are you using? You're using
Joel Comm: a public blockchain, right?
Dor Garbash: Yeah. Using a public blockchain, which has a lot of benefits. But,
Dor Garbash: you know, let's put this analogy in your everyday life, right? Like,
Dor Garbash: imagine that every single transaction you make with your your
Dor Garbash: credit card and purchase is going to be forever posted
Dor Garbash: on the public ledger and everybody can see it, which
Dor Garbash: is basically what's going on, you know, a second or
Dor Garbash: a second way to look at it. Think about if
Dor Garbash: every time you you voted or. If for something or
Dor Garbash: signal something, you know, everything is like under public forever,
Dor Garbash: even if it's like 50 years from now, you know,
Dor Garbash: and like where we're at, anything we're saying now would
Dor Garbash: probably be like, not, not be fit, right? You know,
Dor Garbash: everybody can everybody can access it and connect it to
Dor Garbash: you and your your offerings. Okay. Like the zero privacy here. And,
Dor Garbash: you know, this is actually I would say probably like
Dor Garbash: this is worse than what's going on in Europe, too.
Dor Garbash: In terms of privacy, at least at least in some applications,
Dor Garbash: you know that that private information is only visible to
Dor Garbash: a few corporations. Right. Or, you know, corporations and governments
Dor Garbash: and not generally to the entire public.
Travis Wright: And they love that. Right. The governments love the fact
Travis Wright: that you can go in and trace where that Bitcoin
Travis Wright: came from. You can go in and trace where that
Travis Wright: Etherium came from originally. But what you're saying is you're
Travis Wright: going to go from zero privacy to a zero knowledge proof,
Travis Wright: which will then sort of mask your identity but still
Travis Wright: allow you to transact. It seems to me that that's
Travis Wright: going to be something they're going to try to outlaw
Travis Wright: down the road, too, as they move towards this, the
Travis Wright: central bank digital currency type thing.
Dor Garbash: I think there's actually a wide variety of privacy use cases.
Dor Garbash: And yeah, it's. I you know, I don't know what
Dor Garbash: what people would like to legislate then or not. I
Dor Garbash: just know that I just believe that that a world where.
Dor Garbash: Individual privacy is is protected if is a better world.
Joel Comm: This is different than like like a monero or a
Joel Comm: Zcash where it's a masked address, but there's still a
Joel Comm: public chain where you can see the transaction that took place, right?
Joel Comm: I'm assuming that somehow this is like next level from that.
Dor Garbash: Well. Well, first of all, like, like, you know, make
Dor Garbash: me know layer one is is public and accessible, but. Yeah,
Dor Garbash: when you do. When you when you were using the
Dor Garbash: K apps. Yeah. That's a that's a that's a different matter.
Dor Garbash: And then yeah, you can benefit from all these like.
Dor Garbash: Privacy features.
Joel Comm: So so we're both really deep into Nfts. How do
Joel Comm: you see zero knowledge proof applying to, you know, Nfts and, and,
Joel Comm: you know, gaming assets and metaverse, all of this, especially
Joel Comm: when we're talking metaverse, we're really, you know, privacy could
Joel Comm: be a huge issue for people.
Dor Garbash: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, if you can think
Dor Garbash: about it together. That's very fascinating. I think. I think just. Well,
Dor Garbash: I think privately owning and if it is as a starter,
Dor Garbash: that's like a pretty good, good start. I also believe
Dor Garbash: that a lot of initiatives are kind of used as
Dor Garbash: almost like a reputation system. Okay. Like kind of a
Dor Garbash: way for you to. Showing you you've been to places,
Dor Garbash: you accomplished things, right? You get an NFT, you know,
Dor Garbash: it's almost becomes like a diploma. So I think people
Dor Garbash: can start to add. You know, do good. Provide value.
Dor Garbash: Get recognized without revealing their entire identity. And I think
Dor Garbash: this is great, you know, especially if you think about.
Dor Garbash: All the other spaces in third world countries where people
Dor Garbash: don't even have basic human rights. And. Yeah. I don't know, like.
Dor Garbash: Are there any other use cases you are also interested
Dor Garbash: in or fascinated with? And if this is kind of
Dor Garbash: not my not my expertise, but it's very fun conversation.
Travis Wright: I think it's interesting when you when you're just talking
Travis Wright: about all of the use cases. And so I'm looking
Travis Wright: at some other product, you know, some other places right
Travis Wright: now where it's talking about, you know, for one, the
Travis Wright: blockchain side of things, finance and how Zeke, Zeke, KP
Travis Wright: is going to work on that. Online voting sounds really
Travis Wright: interesting to me because there's a huge problem when it
Travis Wright: comes to just mail in voting where you can where
Travis Wright: the mail in votes get sent to different addresses, sometimes
Travis Wright: multiple people at one address, they fill them all out,
Travis Wright: drop them in a box, that vote just gets counted
Travis Wright: and that's not legit. So I would love to know
Travis Wright: how does Zero Knowledge proof work in online voting and
Travis Wright: what is the best use case that you've seen so
Travis Wright: far with online voting So people could participate in something
Travis Wright: like that so they could get a feel for how
Travis Wright: legit it is? Because I don't think people at the
Travis Wright: beginning is going to trust it until they learn to
Travis Wright: trust it.
Dor Garbash: Yeah, that makes sense, I think. Yeah, Well, Ted, generally
Dor Garbash: there's a bit of a legitimacy challenge right now for
Dor Garbash: democracies around the world where the legitimacy of democracies are
Dor Garbash: constantly challenged. And yeah, and I think having, having mathematical
Dor Garbash: proofs that, you know, your vote has been, you know,
Dor Garbash: your vote is real and being counted is actually would
Dor Garbash: be extremely valuable in that context. And. Let's see. What
Dor Garbash: what was your second question?
Travis Wright: And my question was about what what sort of online
Travis Wright: voting is out there now? Is there a use case
Travis Wright: for that where people can go and do online voting
Travis Wright: and see how it works? And then because I know
Travis Wright: that there's people who are working on different forms of
Travis Wright: trying to help people with legislation. Right. To actually give
Travis Wright: power back to the people. And it seems to me
Travis Wright: like this could be something that could help give power
Travis Wright: back to the people if it's trustworthy. Right. So people
Travis Wright: have to become excuse me, people have to become familiar
Travis Wright: with that. So what what is working People go to
Travis Wright: test online voting with with zero knowledge right now. Is
Travis Wright: there a place?
Dor Garbash: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. So. And before I
Dor Garbash: worked in Muni, I was head of governance in HK,
Dor Garbash: which is a cardano's main. Main development company. And where.
Dor Garbash: There we develop privacy. Privacy. Preserving voting. Using the KPIs
Dor Garbash: that actually powered our innovation fund that had more than
Dor Garbash: 50,000 voters participating and using this mechanism, we funded more
Dor Garbash: than a thousand blockchain projects. And with and right now
Dor Garbash: in meNow, we're going to do something similar. And we're
Dor Garbash: basically just you know, we just had this I mean,
Dor Garbash: I think one of the really interesting and exciting things
Dor Garbash: about zero knowledge proof. Is it just. It's so cutting
Dor Garbash: edge right now that literally those early use cases and
Dor Garbash: everything you talk about, like show me, show me an
Dor Garbash: example of how this is being used. This is now
Dor Garbash: being built, right? All these exciting use cases that are
Dor Garbash: pushing the edge of what's possible, the literally getting getting
Dor Garbash: built right now. So we're in three weeks in Mena,
Dor Garbash: We're going to launch an innovation program called Zika Ignite,
Dor Garbash: where people are actually going to have the ability to
Dor Garbash: receive support and funding to actually develop these types of
Dor Garbash: use cases.
Joel Comm: Yes. So actually, for those who are watching I've got
Joel Comm: MENA protocol dot com up on the visuals right now
Joel Comm: says MENA is building the privacy and security layer for
Joel Comm: Web three using zero knowledge technology. You guys can go
Joel Comm: down the rabbit hole and learn about Z K apps
Joel Comm: there and you put out this report, The State of
Joel Comm: Zero Knowledge report 2022. We're gonna have a link to
Joel Comm: that for you in the show notes a bad code
Joel Comm: that I and forward slash 668 and you can read
Joel Comm: about that travel ask questions your sir.
Travis Wright: Well my question is around this I just looked on
Travis Wright: coingecko I did not see Mena on there. I looked
Travis Wright: in top crypto categories and looked for zero knowledge proof cryptos.
Travis Wright: I didn't see any. So what are you know, when
Travis Wright: people are now going out and doing their own research
Travis Wright: down the rabbit hole, where do you suggest they go?
Dor Garbash: I think just Google mina mina protocol.
Travis Wright: Is that going to be a crypto? Is that a project?
Travis Wright: Is that a coin people can invest in? MENA is
Travis Wright: it doesn't look like it's available yet, correct?
Dor Garbash: No notes available. This project had been you know, we
Dor Garbash: had our main in launch a few years ago where.
Travis Wright: I mean, if you go there we go. It is
Travis Wright: it's the number one overall. Wasn't popping up on Coingecko
Travis Wright: when I tried earlier. And that's a token right now. Okay,
Travis Wright: I see.
Dor Garbash: It's it's an extremely legitimate project. It's actually had many,
Dor Garbash: many years of development, but we're pretty much the pioneers
Dor Garbash: in in this space. You know, we're I think we're
Dor Garbash: we're like really the only ones that have like an
Dor Garbash: actual functional zero knowledge layer one running and. Yeah. I think,
Dor Garbash: you know, if you don't mind me, like pitching a bit,
Dor Garbash: you know, I think I think the other really interesting
Dor Garbash: thing about now is our like, language for developing Zika,
Dor Garbash: a kind of question, I guess, which is like JavaScript.
Dor Garbash: So if like the most popular programming language in the
Dor Garbash: world and when you look at other actors in the space,
Dor Garbash: they're pretty much forcing developers to learn a whole new
Dor Garbash: programming language. Usually like one that is like obscure and
Dor Garbash: was kind of invented. And, you know, maybe there's like
Dor Garbash: a handful of people that are actually like, using it and.
Dor Garbash: While our technology is just way more accessible for an
Dor Garbash: everyday developer to come in and get started and build
Dor Garbash: their own day care.
Travis Wright: Dude, I'm looking at this right now. I'm looking at
Travis Wright: this and you guys are like 50 something cents right now,
Travis Wright: but in the all time high you guys are over $6.
Travis Wright: So just to get to your previous all time high,
Travis Wright: that's a 12 x. Not financial advice, but if you're
Travis Wright: saying that you guys are the leaders in this and
Travis Wright: you guys are creating the technology that that other peoples
Travis Wright: are sort of building theirs on, might not not financial
Travis Wright: advice but might not be a bad idea to look
Travis Wright: into this a little further.
Dor Garbash: I don't think I can come at that price. No, no,
Dor Garbash: it's really my focus. You know? The focus of us and,
Dor Garbash: you know, is actually like, yeah, just bringing this technology
Dor Garbash: to life and making sure there's real world use cases.
Dor Garbash: You know, making sure the ecosystem thrives and and, you know,
Dor Garbash: and making sure that at the end of the day,
Dor Garbash: we're making the world a better place, you know, and
Dor Garbash: we're giving the technologies that. You know, I really wish
Dor Garbash: for us, as the reluctant community like, to kind of
Dor Garbash: move from a defensive perspective about privacy to a more
Dor Garbash: a bit more like offensive perspective. So. So what do
Dor Garbash: I mean? Instead of like trying to fight the fight
Dor Garbash: of like, oh, let's like add if that any future
Dor Garbash: any bit of privacy while whatever big, big organizations of
Dor Garbash: the world are eating into privacy faster. You know, we
Dor Garbash: can just create a world where privacy is a first
Dor Garbash: class citizen that actually enables people to do way more
Dor Garbash: things they just couldn't do before. Okay. I think I
Dor Garbash: think from like when you start to think about, you know,
Dor Garbash: what kind of headache and cost is getting medical records,
Dor Garbash: for example, from from one one provider to another, sharing
Dor Garbash: scientific knowledge from like even even if you have let's say,
Dor Garbash: if you have an embarrassing personal problem. Okay. Like.
Joel Comm: I don't want to talk about that. I don't want
Joel Comm: to talk about that.
Dor Garbash: Yeah, but like, even if you're if even if, you know,
Dor Garbash: it's like it's funny, but it's also real, you know,
Dor Garbash: like people that are facing a problem like addiction. Okay,
Dor Garbash: So right now, they can take just go out in
Dor Garbash: the world and, like, apply to all sorts of places
Dor Garbash: and find the best service, like a normal market place,
Dor Garbash: you know, because they're afraid for their identity, they're fearful
Dor Garbash: for privacy in there. Their access to services is very limited.
Dor Garbash: But what if your privacy is guaranteed? You know what?
Dor Garbash: If you can talk, share, get your problem treated, You know,
Dor Garbash: getting people to to help, to support you without that
Dor Garbash: fear or like, what if people could be whistleblowers or reports? Yeah.
Dor Garbash: Let's say like, you know, more than, you know, millions
Dor Garbash: of people die from, you know, construction workers die every
Dor Garbash: day because inadequate safety procedures in their worksites. Right. What
Dor Garbash: if they had a safe way to report that? Maybe
Dor Garbash: if they can.
Travis Wright: That's a really interesting use case. I thought you said,
Travis Wright: what if you could be anonymous so you could talk shit, right? Anonymously.
Travis Wright: It was when I thought he was going to say,
Travis Wright: but he said talk is you know, that's really. So
Travis Wright: you're talking about these whistleblowers. I like that idea. Is
Travis Wright: there a MENA protocol lab of some sort where you
Travis Wright: guys are saying, submit, you know, your idea for a proposal?
Travis Wright: We have a we have some funds over here in
Travis Wright: Mena to utilize. Is that something you guys as ecosystem has?
Dor Garbash: That's right. Actually in this they said it three weeks. What?
Dor Garbash: I think Zika ignites one. Okay. Which will be distributing
Dor Garbash: three quarters of $1,000,000 in US decision tokens just to
Dor Garbash: be this early seed crazy exploration lab for people to
Dor Garbash: develop those early use cases.
Joel Comm: Nice. So, you know.
Dor Garbash: If you're a developer and you just feel like you
Dor Garbash: want to be on the cutting edge and you want
Dor Garbash: to not just like optimize existing things, but, you know,
Dor Garbash: maybe create whole new product categories, push the edges. We
Dor Garbash: want to empower you and give you that opportunity to
Dor Garbash: do that.
Joel Comm: It's funny because the term zero knowledge, the website says
Joel Comm: build with zero knowledge. Well, that's me. I have no knowledge.
Joel Comm: I I'm being invited to build.
Travis Wright: Yeah.
Dor Garbash: Yeah. Obviously that yeah I visit that zero zero knowledge
Dor Garbash: whatever weird mathematician an academic think did not consult the
Dor Garbash: branding agency.
Joel Comm: Right. Hey, this don't have a GED or a high
Joel Comm: school diploma build with zero knowledge.
Dor Garbash: I right. I know my job well.
Joel Comm: Now I have some knowledge. And.
Travis Wright: And we're having one knowledge now. Now.
Joel Comm: Right now I have one.
Travis Wright: Half of the knowledge.
Joel Comm: To add to my zero knowledge board. Thanks for coming
Joel Comm: on and share with us today. You keep keep developing
Joel Comm: over there at it Mina mina protocol dot com is
Joel Comm: the Web site and you guys can find links to
Joel Comm: it and to the the report that they released in
Joel Comm: the show notes that bad code that I and forward
Joel Comm: slash 668. We're going to take our one knowledge now
Joel Comm: and go on with the show so thanks man appreciate it.
Travis Wright: I just want to say d'oh! You didn't seem mean
Travis Wright: to me at all. You seem pretty nicer. Yeah, really nice.
Dor Garbash: Thank you. I think that is a great compliment. So
Dor Garbash: thank you so much. You do have enjoyed the rest
Dor Garbash: of your day. Take care.
Joel Comm: And now you know a little bit more about zero
Joel Comm: knowledge proof. And it really is a very simple concept,
Joel Comm: and I understand completely why this is important for privacy.
Travis Wright: Mm hmm. I don't fully understand the mechanisms of it. Right.
Travis Wright: So I don't know where the vulnerabilities are within it,
Travis Wright: because it's math. It's math. Yeah. But you know what
Travis Wright: we're in this space is like, you never know. Trust
Travis Wright: but verify. And so we can interview this guy, and
Travis Wright: he can be our verification. But now we trust. I mean,
Travis Wright: I don't know. It's still it's like I need to
Travis Wright: know more information about it, because right now I feel
Travis Wright: a little on a little little I don't feel as
Travis Wright: much trust as I should have. But it seems like
Travis Wright: if it is legit and it can do the things
Travis Wright: it says without having those vulnerabilities, then it might be
Travis Wright: a good solution for online voting. Potentially. I like that concept.
Travis Wright: I like I don't like mail in voting. People who
Travis Wright: listen to this show, they know that, right? It's you've
Travis Wright: seen 200 mule, 2000 mules. You know, things can be fraudulent.
Joel Comm: You're just being a.
Travis Wright: Upset about it. You're upset about it is what it is.
Joel Comm: If somebody is upset about it and we're going to
Joel Comm: read their review in just a moment, but I want
Joel Comm: you guys to know that you can get a free NFT.
Joel Comm: All you need to be is in the bad crypto
Joel Comm: nifty club. You go to bad crypto dot, Uncut dot
Joel Comm: FM is the link to it, and then you want
Joel Comm: to make sure that you've got one of these spinning
Joel Comm: nfts in your wallet. $3.24 at today's Etherium price. Why
Joel Comm: do they cost anything at all? Just so we don't
Joel Comm: have bots scooping them up? You put something out there
Joel Comm: for free and all these bots end up with them
Joel Comm: and then they get all the nfts and you know,
Joel Comm: we figure bots aren't going to drop three bucks. This
Joel Comm: is for people who enjoy the show. So go to
Joel Comm: bad Crypto Dot Uncut FM, make sure you have this.
Joel Comm: I think we'll do the cut off will be Saturday
Joel Comm: the 28th. If you don't have one by then you're
Joel Comm: not going to get the free drop. But if you've
Joel Comm: got one in your wallet, you will get the free drop,
Joel Comm: which I have not yet seen because Travis has not
Joel Comm: yet made it. He doesn't even know what it looks
Joel Comm: like yet.
Travis Wright: I don't I think it's going to be something that's
Travis Wright: a little silly, though. It should be this one. I'll
Travis Wright: probably try to be a little more funny because if
Travis Wright: somebody has zero knowledge, the kind of probably an idiot,
Travis Wright: this is a little different. If you have zero knowledge,
Travis Wright: prove it's a different sort of metaphor, but we'll just
Travis Wright: see how it goes. I'm literally look, you go look
Travis Wright: in zero knowledge proof images on a search engine. There's
Travis Wright: nothing they all look blockchain. There's nothing really that make
Travis Wright: that goes oh, zero knowledge proof. So I don't know
Travis Wright: that there is a definitive image of the Internet.
Joel Comm: The Internet has no knowledge of zero knowledge. It's like
Joel Comm: a double negative. So they got to figure that out.
Travis Wright: Dude, I have had a lot of comments and people
Travis Wright: messaging me about those Etherium Nfts that we put out. Yeah,
Travis Wright: those ones I was in.
Joel Comm: Those are.
Travis Wright: Those are.
Joel Comm: Really solid if you did get them, but you don't
Joel Comm: see them, check out open, see your hidden folder because
Joel Comm: Polygon Nfts tend to automatically be hidden if they're not
Joel Comm: coming from a verified collection. So make sure you go
Joel Comm: and look because they could be hiding in there. Also,
Joel Comm: a lot of great comments we got from people on
Joel Comm: the Teka Tiwari. We got some great tweets and feedback,
Joel Comm: but this guy, Trent Rob Rabb. Trent Crabbe. He's a Canadian,
Joel Comm: a he's a hoser. And he he went out of
Joel Comm: his way to write this year review because he felt
Joel Comm: real passionate about the show. He said it was probably
Joel Comm: the worst podcast I've listened to a and I'm going
Joel Comm: to read this in Canadian because why not? I don't.
Travis Wright: Even I don't even see that one on my on the.
Joel Comm: Air. I really enjoy investing in crypto podcast. When I
Joel Comm: stumbled across this one, I was excited as I saw,
Joel Comm: the guest was Deka DKA and he always provides good
Joel Comm: insights into the market. I couldn't be more disappointed in
Joel Comm: these hosts. These hosers are clowns the way they conducted
Joel Comm: the podcast. The guy in the background constantly adding his
Joel Comm: $0.02 with the bad jokes and the main guy sounds
Joel Comm: very inexperienced as well. I couldn't even listen to the
Joel Comm: whole podcast because they had my tuk pulled over my ears.
Joel Comm: Which is a shame because I wanted to hear all
Joel Comm: that I had to say. I felt sorry Teka. He
Joel Comm: had to sit there answering these. Your hosers. Don't listen.
Joel Comm: If these other guys are looking to improve, they should
Joel Comm: listen to the We Study Billionaires podcast to understand how
Joel Comm: to interview the professionals at the top of their class. Dare.
Joel Comm: And now I got to go off to Tim Hortons
Joel Comm: and get me some food.
Travis Wright: Get a donut and a coffee for you.
Joel Comm: Yeah, we're not we're never going to make beer, Trev.
Joel Comm: We need we're never going to make it. And GM,
Joel Comm: I mean.
Travis Wright: I think that's a person that has zero knowledge right there.
Joel Comm: Or he's got to prove he's got the proof, though.
Joel Comm: So what I want to know is I know.
Travis Wright: He didn't realize that we do tend to put in
Travis Wright: our $0.02 worth that makes it entertaining, at least to us.
Travis Wright: And it wasn't irritating to us. We wouldn't even do
Travis Wright: it because it wouldn't be fun.
Joel Comm: And then the thousands of you that do enjoy wouldn't
Joel Comm: enjoy you be like, these guys are generic. They it
Joel Comm: is a guy only. So he said, the guy in
Joel Comm: the background. I don't know which one of us that
Joel Comm: was constantly adding his $0.02 with bad jokes. And the
Joel Comm: main guy sounds very inexperienced. I want to know who's
Joel Comm: the background guy and who's the main guy?
Travis Wright: Well, you're probably the main guy since you're the one
Travis Wright: who reads the teaser off that comes off like you're
Travis Wright: the main guy.
Joel Comm: Then I sounded very inexperienced. I've only been doing broadcasting
Joel Comm: for a little while.
Travis Wright: BRADY Your voice was cracking.
Joel Comm: For two years now. But you're right. I've got no
Joel Comm: experience or I don't understand people going out of the
Joel Comm: way to write one star review.
Travis Wright: It needs to go hang out with Justin Trudeau and
Travis Wright: get his suck on all.
Joel Comm: Yeah, but if you're a Canadian and you know you
Joel Comm: like the show, we'd like a five star review from
Joel Comm: you because we're a fan of the Canadian people. We're
Joel Comm: just not a fan of Trudeau there. You know, a
Joel Comm: in in people who are mean mean people sucky.
Travis Wright: Well, I got $0.02 here and I would say, you know,
Travis Wright: try as you might, we still have a 4.5 plus
Travis Wright: star review rating of over.
Joel Comm: 4.7, which by the way is 4.5 plus still. But
Joel Comm: we would have been on.
Travis Wright: Where are you looking at? Because I'm looking at hours
Travis Wright: on on Apple.
Joel Comm: I don't know where you're looking. I'm just telling you
Joel Comm: what I'm seeing. And I'm saying when.
Travis Wright: I saw it's like a 5.2 and it's like more
Travis Wright: than five, we.
Joel Comm: Would love to hear from some others of you with
Joel Comm: some of the fun. If five star reviews some funny stuff.
Joel Comm: So go jump over there. Take a minute of your
Joel Comm: time if you've made it this far and and do
Joel Comm: that for for the the funny guy in the main guy.
Travis Wright: Yeah it's called the bad crypto podcast like he's over
Travis Wright: there making bad jokes like, yeah, you don't get it.
Travis Wright: Go figure. Sorry. Sorry you had to deal with that,
Travis Wright: you know, ticker. And some point in that podcast, he
Travis Wright: was he was looking at me like I was a
Travis Wright: little crazy. He's like, Oh, no, I'm not going to
Travis Wright: get nearly that bad. What are you just live your life, bro?
Travis Wright: And I was like, Okay, well, I mean, I do
Travis Wright: live my life, but I know that shitty people getting
Travis Wright: in charge of things and economies do tend to crash
Travis Wright: over time and hopefully everybody is safe and secure when
Travis Wright: that happens.
Joel Comm: There you go. More conspiracy theories, by the way. Really
Joel Comm: interesting to see people capitulating on the on the vaccines. Now,
Joel Comm: Scott Adams, who's a former guest on this show, was
Joel Comm: one of the people that came out and said, I
Joel Comm: trust the science on on the vaccines and you should
Joel Comm: go get them. And he jumped, you know, right in
Joel Comm: bed with that. And it was just yesterday that he
Joel Comm: went live on Twitter and he said, you know what,
Joel Comm: I was wrong. The quote, Anti-vax people were right about
Joel Comm: this because there is no doubt there is more than
Joel Comm: enough data now that demonstrates that these vaccines and the
Joel Comm: boosters actually are more harmful than helpful, according to the
Joel Comm: data that we're now looking at, not according to opinion,
Joel Comm: according to the actual data.
Travis Wright: And Kathy Griffin came out and she's looking pale and
Travis Wright: frail as ever, celebrating her first. Fourth booster that she
Travis Wright: just got. So congratulations to her. I hope she keeps
Travis Wright: getting them.
Joel Comm: You know, I don't wish well on I don't wish
Joel Comm: evil on anybody. I'm just saying.
Travis Wright: Doesn't get as many as you like.
Joel Comm: These conspiracy theories. Turns out that not not a theory realist.
Joel Comm: And so you.
Travis Wright: Can have zero knowledge of any of that.
Joel Comm: We don't know. We're just critical thinkers and we look
Joel Comm: at stuff around us and go, What are the motives
Joel Comm: of those people who are telling us, Fill in the blank,
Joel Comm: whatever it is?
Travis Wright: And we always have those conversations. It's like, this kind
Travis Wright: of seems funky. What's up with this? And we're like, Yeah, oh, look, oh,
Travis Wright: here's another resort. Oh, look at that. And then it
Travis Wright: tends to come out. If you surround yourself with people
Travis Wright: who are free thinkers, what tends to happen is you
Travis Wright: end up getting more of the information that is suppressed
Travis Wright: to most people, and then you pay attention to that
Travis Wright: and you read it and you go, Wow, these are
Travis Wright: this is not publicly available for most people if you're
Travis Wright: not looking for it. And then you go, Wow, they're
Travis Wright: not these aren't in our best interests. And so the
Travis Wright: same people, it sounds like a theory, but the same
Travis Wright: people who are promoting, Oh my God, we are so overpopulated.
Travis Wright: We're going to have too many people. We need to
Travis Wright: do X, Y, and Z to minimize the amount of people,
Travis Wright: and then they come out later and send sick people
Travis Wright: in to the nursing homes of grandma and grandpa. They
Travis Wright: get worse and then they pass on a vaccine. Everybody
Travis Wright: that just didn't seem logical to me. Turns out we
Travis Wright: were right.
Dor Garbash: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Joel Comm: Just question everything, gang. Think for yourself. Don't let the
Joel Comm: media and the oligarchs tell you what to think. Just
Joel Comm: because it's coming through mass media does not mean it
Joel Comm: is in your best interests. And we're just going to
Joel Comm: question everything. And I think, you know, we've kind of
Joel Comm: formed a base around the people who enjoy listening to
Joel Comm: our show and mostly people that are awake, not woke awake,
Joel Comm: and at least are willing to ask the questions. And
Joel Comm: we appreciate you guys listening And those of you who
Joel Comm: may not fall into that bucket, that's fine. We're glad
Joel Comm: that you're here, too. We welcome all here. We're not
Joel Comm: here to ostracize anybody. We're just that it's a show
Joel Comm: that we host. And so we're going to talk about
Joel Comm: things that are interesting to us. It is the Bad
Joel Comm: Crypto podcast, and we are going to encourage you to stay.
Dor Garbash: Who's bad?
Joel Comm: The Bad Crypto podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC.
Joel Comm: The content of the show, the videos and the website
Joel Comm: is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's
Joel Comm: not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment
Joel Comm: or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any
Joel Comm: decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based
Joel Comm: on this information without undertaking independent due diligence in consultation
Joel Comm: with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading
Joel Comm: of Bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone
Joel Comm: wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens
Joel Comm: mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent
Joel Comm: professional financial advisor.