S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
S1: Jacqueline Maley. It's Thursday, May 15th. Today we bring you
S1: a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
S1: of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
S1: I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
S1: his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
S1: new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
S2: Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
S2: you for having time to talk to us. Good to
S2: be here. And so soon after the the formation of
S2: your new ministry. And just as you head off on
S2: some important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I
S2: thought we would start with one of the things that
S2: you're heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass
S2: for Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week
S2: as an important moment for you to go and meet
S2: world leaders, but it also has an important aspect of faith.
S2: And you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to
S2: your mother in her life, and I wanted to ask
S2: about that as an opening question. How important is your
S2: faith in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
S3: I think these issues are a matter of your own
S3: development as well, and it's a part of who I
S3: am my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements
S3: I made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate
S3: was that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something
S3: that's a part of how I was raised in the
S3: Catholic faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly
S3: vulnerable people. I believe in a separation of church and state.
S3: So I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to
S3: do an affirmation because I think that as the Australian
S3: Prime Minister, I represent people of every faith and no faith.
S3: And so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other
S3: people who swear on the Bible or the Koran in
S3: Ali's case, is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice.
S3: But for me, that's a personal choice that I make
S3: and have made. But I say I was raised with
S3: three great faiths the Labour Party, South Sydney in the
S3: Catholic Church, and it will be an incredible honour for
S3: me to be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have
S3: in my office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother
S3: sent away from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI,
S3: who visited Australia, of course, and went to my street,
S3: Pyrmont Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across
S3: the road. And that was a great moment in my
S3: mom's life. I remember it, uh, very deeply. And I
S3: still have the book that my mom had. All the
S3: memorabilia from the papal visit at that time is one
S3: of my cherished possessions.
S2: There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers that
S2: don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
S2: does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
S2: is about. Do you think that there is a moral
S2: purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
S3: Uh, I think there absolutely has to be a moral
S3: purpose to politics. Uh, for me, it's about how do
S3: you make people's lives better? Uh, it's captured in a
S3: statement that I made many times during the election campaign.
S3: No one held back. No one left behind. Uh, that
S3: that is a part of our purpose in politics is
S3: to make a difference to people's lives.
S1: Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
S1: was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
S1: there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
S1: It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
S1: the face of the country. I wonder what you think
S1: the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
S1: about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
S1: proves that in a more cosmopolitan world. Labor is the
S1: natural party of government, not your opponents.
S3: I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
S3: I think if you look at what we seek to
S3: represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
S3: working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
S3: who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
S3: the people who many people really need a Labour government
S3: to make a difference to their lives. I think that
S3: our destiny is to try to be the natural party
S3: of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
S3: of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
S3: was who was seeking to bring people together and who
S3: was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
S3: culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
S3: people against each other.
S1: Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
S1: at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
S1: centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
S3: Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
S3: much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
S3: a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
S3: we also very much believe in markets and that markets
S3: are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
S3: I believe in a private sector being the key driver
S3: of growth, but the public sector should step in where
S3: there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
S3: as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
S3: is one way that it's been called. You know, we
S3: spoke about doing things the Australian way, not looking towards
S3: any other method or ideology from overseas to try to copy.
S3: If we get this right, we can be increasingly successful.
S3: I look at the caucus and I have very consciously
S3: tried to bring in to the caucus as well, a
S3: broad range of people from different backgrounds. We are so
S3: much more.
S1: A lot of them yourself. Right. A lot of these
S1: caucus members, you you played a more hands on role
S1: in picking candidates than most party leaders.
S3: Well, I had a focus from 2022 of where are
S3: we going to be at in 2025 and work our
S3: way back rather than just go through. And you've got
S3: to be. It's a bit like, uh, I guess the
S3: coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
S3: in May or June, you win it in September. How
S3: do you peak in September? How do you get the
S3: right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
S3: do you get the right framing so that when it
S3: really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
S3: the Australian people going forward? Uh, that's something that I
S3: did from 2019 through to my first term as, as
S3: opposition leader to bring us into government. It's something that
S3: we consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums
S3: internal to the party that we engage with as well,
S3: not just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
S2: You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
S2: I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
S2: I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
S2: lot of people regard Patriotism is a bad thing because
S2: it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious of
S2: that as a factor through the campaign, and is it
S2: going to be something that guides you now in this
S2: second term?
S3: I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
S3: strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
S3: apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
S3: that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
S3: a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
S3: who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
S3: Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
S3: get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
S3: should be really proud of. We should be proud of
S3: what we've created here. And I think in terms of
S3: the broader global issues as well, that at a time
S3: where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
S3: divided on the basis of race or religion. Uh, here
S3: in Australia, we can be a microcosm for the world
S3: that says that we're enriched by our diversity, that we
S3: have respect for people of different faiths, that we try
S3: to bring people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas
S3: and play out that conflict here either. And that's really important.
S3: This is a project, if you like, that's not just
S3: about strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the
S3: globe in how humanity can move forward.
S2: Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
S2: and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
S2: 40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
S2: So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
S2: a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
S2: opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
S3: Not at all. Web focused is what we are. And
S3: we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
S3: concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
S3: make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
S3: you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
S3: had a plan for more than one term for a
S3: long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
S3: that is why so many things that we've set out
S3: for this term were things that built on what we
S3: had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
S3: be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
S3: the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
S3: done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
S3: going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
S3: in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
S3: The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
S3: But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
S3: re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
S3: as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
S3: getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
S3: given them.
S2: What do you think of the observation that's been made
S2: by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
S2: because of the size of the number of seats that
S2: you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
S2: this term, but the next one as well.
S3: Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
S3: take anything for granted. And some of those same people
S3: were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
S3: I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
S3: we had for a may election and that we could
S3: be successful, and we put those measures in place and
S3: we received the support of the Australian people. I want
S3: to get our primary vote up higher at the next
S3: election than we did this time. But if you look
S3: at the work that we've done, it is significant that
S3: over a period of time it had been dropping. We
S3: did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
S3: And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
S3: the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
S3: regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
S3: to be a good government.
S2: Did it exceed your expectations?
S3: I expected us to win a majority government the whole
S3: way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
S3: I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
S3: never saw that as what the outcome would be the
S3: outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
S3: you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
S3: here and here. But chances are you don't get all
S3: of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
S3: the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
S1: Can I just ask.
S3: Bullwinkel.
S1: On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
S1: of your ministers said that when you would talk about
S1: those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
S1: of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
S1: this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
S1: it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
S1: called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
S3: The evidence is there because I thought we had the
S3: right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
S3: I also saw that I know what it takes to
S3: take an opposition into the government. I did serious policies,
S3: fully costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a
S3: series of vision statements. I went to the National Press
S3: Club regularly. I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable,
S3: we did hard work and I didn't see the opposition
S3: doing laying that groundwork that you need and thought they
S3: would be very, very vulnerable during an election campaign. I
S3: unusually agreed to four debates. Some in my own team
S3: said that was crazy brave. I think it was the
S3: right thing to do. Went to the National Press Club.
S3: I did all of that. And I also thought that
S3: the Greens political party were vulnerable. I saw that in
S3: my local community that they had lost their way in
S3: blocking Labor's housing reforms and not being a party which
S3: concentrated on the environment and on issues that mattered most
S3: to people.
S1: Just on the on the size of the win, Prime Minister,
S1: do you feel a sense of and I think there's
S1: an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
S1: I think Trump allowed you to project as a centre
S1: left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
S1: by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
S1: no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
S1: that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
S1: bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
S1: there a chance that we're overanalyzing the Labour win? Because
S1: the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
S1: and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
S3: No, I think that, uh, some of the commentariat have, uh,
S3: looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
S3: touch last year.
S1: In the media.
S3: Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
S3: serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
S3: position for a government if you look historically in Australia
S3: for polls that have been around for a long period
S3: of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
S3: we're on 49 is going into an election is a
S3: strong position for a government. You know, if you're in
S3: trying to get to government, you've got to have a narrative,
S3: an offer. We had as well, I think, a record
S3: that we were proud of that we could talk about,
S3: that people could recognise. The Australian people have done it
S3: tough over Covid under the former government, and then that
S3: due to supply chain issues and a range of things,
S3: including international factors, led to cost of living pressures. People
S3: know that we were trying to do something about it.
S3: Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures and we had
S3: got inflation down, interest rates starting to fall. Real wages
S3: up and employment was strong. There are a set of
S3: economic numbers that are the envy of other parts of
S3: the industrialized world. So we had a good story to tell.
S3: We've done that whilst at the same time doing major reform.
S3: The aged care reforms are the biggest reforms this century.
S3: The clean energy transformation, what we're doing on a future
S3: made in Australia, the childcare reforms, the completion of the
S3: National Broadband Network, the rolling out of infrastructure projects. We
S3: had done a pretty comprehensive plan across the range of
S3: portfolios that were there, but we also had the forward
S3: offer that we started to roll out, uh, from last
S3: November with the free TAFE extension, with the 20% cut
S3: in student debt, and then had a series of major announcements,
S3: including the most significant of which was strengthening Medicare that
S3: we did in Launceston in the electorate of bass. And
S3: so we had a very clear plan. I outlined that
S3: to colleagues. I also outlined where it would be successful.
S3: It's no accident. The major announcements that we made prior
S3: to the election were being called. Were in Sturt, in Griffith,
S3: in Bass. That's where we were thinking that we could
S3: be positive in and seats like Braddon. There's no doubt
S3: in my mind that if Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be.
S3: Incredibly generous in leaving a Senate spot which she wasn't
S3: even up for election on, to risk running for a
S3: seat where Labour was on 42% at the last election.
S3: She could win that seat and she did with, the
S3: largest swing in the country, 15%.
S2: We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
S2: But first up on the mandate on what this election
S2: means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
S2: but how much flexibility does that give you in being
S2: bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
S2: for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
S2: the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
S2: of the first term. Do you accept that there was
S2: some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
S2: way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
S2: And will that change in the second term?
S3: I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
S3: that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
S3: The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
S3: is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
S3: that green metals will be produced, for example. There's nothing
S3: timid about that. We intervened in the gas and coal
S3: markets to put a cap on gas and coal prices.
S3: If you had of said we were going to do
S3: that prior to 2022, then some of the commentariat would
S3: have completely lost any perspective at all. We did it firmly, clearly,
S3: because it was in the interests of the Australian people.
S3: We changed our mind for good reasons and explained it
S3: on the tax cuts to give a tax cut to
S3: every Australian. We transformed the first stage of reforms on childcare.
S3: We repaired our relations with the world, with China, with Asean,
S3: with the Pacific Island Forum. We were a government that
S3: were ambitious across economic, social, environmental and international politics. And, uh,
S3: We did it in a way that attempted to bring
S3: people with us wherever possible. I mean, we did to
S3: note just one example in a specific area, the ban
S3: on live sheep export. We were told some that that
S3: would cost us, you know, every seat in Western Australia
S3: and would cost us dearly. The truth is, we've not
S3: only held every seat with increased margins, most of them
S3: are in WA. We've won Bullwinkle and have won more.
S3: People said that was a high watermark for labor in WA. Well,
S3: that high water mark just rose. And that was a
S3: decision where I sat down with the industry in my office.
S3: I met people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we
S3: were doing it. We had a commitment to do it.
S3: We carried it out and we won. the argument, if
S3: you like, and we have a package to bring people
S3: with us, and hopefully now people will say, okay, this
S3: transition is going to occur, how do we protect people
S3: as that transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs?
S3: Because you get more jobs from processing sheep meat than
S3: you do from putting them on a ship and shipping
S3: them to the Middle East? How do we get advantage
S3: of that? But, you know, I completely think that, you know,
S3: my government did what we said we would do in
S3: some areas. We went further because circumstances changed, like the
S3: cap on gas and coal prices. But my government is
S3: also determined to look at what it was that we
S3: took to the election on May 3rd and to set
S3: about implementing that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
S2: Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
S2: so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
S2: that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
S2: that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
S2: the lead up to the election?
S3: Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
S2: Interested in your opinion.
S3: To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
S3: the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
S3: would occur.
S1: Um, and your expectations as well?
S3: Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
S3: There is no time where I said anything different privately
S3: from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
S3: have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
S3: If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
S3: what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
S3: for those people who said that was playing mind games.
S3: I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
S3: France can win this seat. I think she will win
S3: this seat. And she did.
S1: And those words on the day. So I'll put my
S1: hand up on that one. And you told me I
S1: was silly on the day. Yeah.
S3: Well, you know, see, I was very direct.
S2: One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
S2: News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
S2: last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
S2: was out to get you. Do you think they were
S2: out to get you in that campaign?
S3: Well, I didn't I didn't say that. Um, but look,
S3: people will make up their own judgment as to what
S3: some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
S3: There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
S3: my job is to do is to go out there
S3: and put forward Labor's positive agenda. And I think as
S3: well that people if there is a consistent view coming
S3: through and people can have a look themselves at what
S3: the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
S3: they take that into account. I think they know that
S3: that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
S3: us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
S3: privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
S3: known each other for some time. Uh, when I came into, uh,
S3: this building, I didn't come here with an expectation of
S3: being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps not having that
S3: sense of destiny has been one of the things that
S3: was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number of people, uh,
S3: in the media said to me, you look like you're
S3: enjoying it. And, yeah, I was, uh, I loved the
S3: campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's an opportunity
S3: to talk to the Australian people about their future. And
S3: now our task is to make sure that we deliver
S3: on that better future. I think that the policies that
S3: we've put forward across the board are. About that, and
S3: I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to be
S3: able to deliver it.
S2: Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
S2: to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
S2: appreciate your time.
S3: Thanks very much.
S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Carcasole with technical assistance
S1: from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
S1: and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
S1: our podcast as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
S1: on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.
S1: To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
S1: Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Paul Circle, thanks for listening.