1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,000 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here. And I'm the host 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,519 S1: of the Morning Edition. We're bringing you the best episodes 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,799 S1: of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns next week. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,440 S1: Today we're heading back to a court in Melbourne with 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,239 S1: crime writer Chris Vedelago. It was the day when one 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,600 S1: of the last remaining figures from the city's gangland war, 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,520 S1: Tony Mokbel, was released on bail thanks to a legal 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,000 S1: scandal like no other. Mokbel has had convictions quashed over 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,400 S1: the so-called lawyer X saga, and since this episode was aired, 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,600 S1: Mokbel was freed from prison. 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,720 S2: Where, Chris, where are we? 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,040 S3: We're standing outside the Victoria's Court of Appeal, and about 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,400 S3: 15 minutes and counting. Tony Mokbel will appear here to 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,360 S3: find out whether or not he's getting bail after being 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,720 S3: in jail for 17 years and ten months. There's quite 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,400 S3: a sizeable press pack here. Lots of photographers and cameramen. Uh, 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,200 S3: it's a pretty unusual event. This what we're about to watch? 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,240 S1: That was Melbourne crime writer Chris Vedelago outside a court 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,360 S1: in Melbourne last week, where he really did watch something unusual. 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,920 S1: Tony Mokbel, once one of Australia's most notorious drug traffickers, 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,440 S1: being released from prison. 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,520 S4: You couldn't wipe the smile from Tony Mokbel's face. 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,240 S5: One of the nation's most notorious back on the streets. 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:24,919 S6: Tony, how does freedom feel? 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,959 S1: Because Chris Vedelago has been following the Mokbel story for years. 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,640 S3: Oh, are you recording? Yeah. So, um, he's gotten bail. 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,600 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,800 S1: This is the Morning Edition, and I'm your host, Samantha 29 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,559 S1: Sellinger Morris. Today we delve into a legal scandal like 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,240 S1: no other one that could see the likes of Tony 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,080 S1: Mokbel not only released on bail like he was last week, 32 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:58,680 S1: but ultimately have their convictions overturned. So, Chris, Tony Mokbel 33 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,760 S1: is a big name in Australia's criminal underworld, but I 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,040 S1: think it's safe to say he really did shoot to 35 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,600 S1: prominence as a result of something that happened when he 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,799 S1: was last on bail many years ago. So please can 37 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,440 S1: you set the scene, take us back to 2006? Who 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,919 S1: was Tony Mokbel at that time and what happened? 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,480 S3: Tony Mokbel was probably the most well-known drug trafficker in 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,920 S3: Melbourne at that period. Publicly well known, notorious amongst police. 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,960 S3: I mean, his nickname was Fat Tony. Uh, he he 42 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,720 S3: was the guy who kind of professionalized drug trafficking in 43 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,639 S3: Melbourne and turned it into a real business. His syndicate 44 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,119 S3: was actually called the company, and he ran it like 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,359 S3: a company. And, uh, though he'd gotten charged, he'd been arrested. 46 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,840 S3: He was charged. He was facing trial. The trial was 47 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,360 S3: coming to its conclusion. And then, according to Tony, um, 48 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,840 S3: as he tells it, many years later, uh, he was 49 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,280 S3: also warned at that period by his barrister at the 50 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,120 S3: time that he was about to be charged with murder, 51 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,320 S3: more than one murder. And so as the trial was 52 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,600 S3: coming to conclusion and he was out on bail. One day. 53 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,400 S3: He just doesn't show up. He disappears. 54 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,680 S1: Okay, so let's get to 2006 then, just as you mentioned, 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,919 S1: you know, he was on bail. He disappears. And this 56 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,280 S1: disappearance had actually sparked a global manhunt, didn't it? So. 57 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,160 S1: So what happened? Where did he go? 58 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,920 S3: Well, this is the amazing thing, right? Because Australia's a 59 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,680 S3: big country, but it's not exactly easy to hide in. Right? 60 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,239 S3: But Tony managed to make it happen, so he disappears. 61 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,400 S3: He never turns up for court. And what we find 62 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,960 S3: out later is he smuggled up north into rural Victoria, 63 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,760 S3: where he hides out basically on a farm belonging to 64 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,639 S3: a friend of his. And then they pack him inside 65 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,400 S3: a caravan, and he basically drives from rural Victoria all 66 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,240 S3: the way across to Perth and then on the west 67 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,960 S3: coast of Australia. They put him inside effectively. I think 68 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,640 S3: it's a 17 metre yacht that had been kind of 69 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,560 S3: custom fitted with a hidey hole, so if anyone came 70 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,800 S3: on board they wouldn't find him. They stick him in 71 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,760 S3: the hidey hole and off they go. And they take 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,920 S3: this long looping journey, you know, through the oceans and 73 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,200 S3: back background and into the Mediterranean, where he ends up 74 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,640 S3: popping up in Greece. 75 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,640 S5: While on bail. In 2006, he infamously fled the country 76 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,200 S5: on a yacht to Greece. Finally found in this wig, arrested, extradited, 77 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,000 S5: then jailed for 30 years for drug trafficking. 78 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,480 S1: Okay, so he pops up in Greece, he's arrested. He 79 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,279 S1: is handed a 30 year prison sentence. And so that's 80 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,000 S1: expected where he'd be, right? He wasn't originally eligible for 81 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,080 S1: parole until June 2031. So what happened? 82 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,800 S3: Well, you know he goes down in 20 2012. He's 83 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,159 S3: sentenced in pretty much everybody thinks that's the end of it. 84 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,200 S3: We'll be talking about Tony in 2040 or 2050 whatever 85 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,080 S3: it is. But then what happens is this story starts 86 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,400 S3: to break that there's a gangland barrister who might have 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,800 S3: been informing to Victoria Police on her own clients, and 88 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,039 S3: that was Nicola Gobbo. 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,240 S7: It has taken us five years to be able to 90 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,799 S7: name Nicola Gobbo as the police informant. With the perfect 91 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,720 S7: disguise as defence barrister. 92 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,120 S3: She was his long term lawyer. She'd been involved with 93 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,520 S3: him in a legal sense for years. She'd handled a 94 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,640 S3: lot of his cases. And then all of a sudden, 95 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,200 S3: behind the scenes, this thing starts getting rolling about whether 96 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,600 S3: or not she and Victoria Police together have corrupted these cases. 97 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,000 S3: And so instead of looking at a 30 year bit, 98 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,320 S3: Tony all of a sudden has an opportunity to make 99 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,160 S3: an appeal to say, hey, there's new evidence here that 100 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,839 S3: this person that I trusted has actually been telling police 101 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,480 S3: what I was doing, setting me up, giving them my defences, 102 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,200 S3: all this sort of stuff. And it opens this doorway 103 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,320 S3: where he can now think about trying to appeal a 104 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,280 S3: sentence and have them, his convictions quashed. And there's been 105 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,640 S3: a whole series of cases that this has gone on for, 106 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,360 S3: and convictions for him have been quashed. And now there's 107 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,839 S3: one last one which is keeping him in prison, which 108 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,080 S3: is what the bail hearing was all about last week. 109 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:38,880 S1: Okay. So we'll get into that a bit later. But 110 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,640 S1: first off, can you just tell me about Nicola Gobbo? 111 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,040 S1: I mean, who is she? And tell us a bit 112 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,160 S1: more about what she did? 113 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,880 S3: Well, Nicola Gobbo was a extraordinarily bright and promising lawyer. 114 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,960 S3: She started out as a solicitor and became a barrister. Um, 115 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,719 S3: but somewhere around the 2000, she developed a bad habit 116 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,520 S3: of associating a little too closely with some of her clients. 117 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,760 S3: She got further and further and further in, and she 118 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,880 S3: felt her life was being threatened because she'd become effectively 119 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,200 S3: a gangland lawyer, and they expected her to be on 120 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,640 S3: call 24 hours a day. And they were asking her 121 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,320 S3: to do things that was was troubling her. So early. 2000, 122 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,400 S3: she begins having these informal negotiations with Victoria Police about 123 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640 S3: how she might extract herself from this and their suggestion 124 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,160 S3: and her willingness is to become an informer. And in 2005, 125 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,520 S3: she becomes a registered informer for Victoria Police. That's official 126 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,680 S3: on the books, with a four digit code number 3838. 127 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,320 S3: She was feeding information to the police, sometimes nine and 128 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,839 S3: ten times a day. In phone calls. She was handing 129 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,040 S3: over documents. She was giving mobile phone numbers, um, like 130 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,159 S3: she was right in the middle of all of these 131 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,200 S3: people's business. But the problem was, at a certain point, 132 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,279 S3: she crossed the line as well because she began using 133 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,000 S3: her influence with clients in order to get them to 134 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,520 S3: effectively roll on other people or to become police cooperating witnesses. 135 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,960 S3: She wasn't necessarily looking at their best interests as their client, 136 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,200 S3: but what was in her interest and the interest of 137 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,840 S3: Victoria Police, which very recently a Supreme Court judges has 138 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,040 S3: basically said what she was doing when it came to 139 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,600 S3: Tony Mokbel with another two officers who were not allowed 140 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,600 S3: to name, was effectively engaging in a criminal conspiracy. 141 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,800 S1: And so can you walk us through why this is 142 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,120 S1: so bad? Because obviously, the layperson who's listening, like myself, 143 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,680 S1: you know, intuitively, okay, if she's representing her clients in 144 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,920 S1: court while at the same time informing on them to police, 145 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,080 S1: obviously that's a conflict of interest, to say the least. 146 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,280 S1: But it's more than that, isn't it? It actually rigs 147 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,000 S1: the system, the legal system, and perverts the concept of 148 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,320 S1: a fair trial. Is that right? 149 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,400 S3: That's right. I mean, it wasn't simply cutting corners or 150 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,400 S3: the ends justifies the means. I mean, they were systematically 151 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,480 S3: corrupting what the system has been designed to do, which 152 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,760 S3: is provide a fair trial to everybody. And they were 153 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,600 S3: stacking the deck. And it happened dozens and dozens and 154 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,120 S3: dozens of times. One of the interesting things about this 155 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,760 S3: story is to most members of the public, they don't 156 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,280 S3: really have a problem with it, like the bad guys 157 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,960 S3: got what they deserved. That's kind of the attitude we 158 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,240 S3: get sometimes from readers who write in about, you know, 159 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,840 S3: these were bad people. And yes, some lines were crossed, 160 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,000 S3: but they were bad people who got what they deserved. 161 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,000 S3: Yet at the same time, like, everybody hates lawyers until 162 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,920 S3: they need one. And if you are in trouble or 163 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,640 S3: family members in trouble and you you go to a lawyer, 164 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,440 S3: a lawyer you trust who's going to try to help 165 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,720 S3: you or your family member in the situation that they're in. 166 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,520 S3: You expect they're going to do the best that they can, 167 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,200 S3: and they're going to adhere to the rules that are 168 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,240 S3: set down to keep the system fair. Um, that's not 169 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,120 S3: what was going on here. Um, so for people, for 170 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,320 S3: people on the outside, they might struggle to see where 171 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,480 S3: the harm is if you're taking down bad guys in 172 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,920 S3: a bad way. But it's really about the integrity of 173 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,080 S3: the system and ensuring that the corruption doesn't set in. 174 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,040 S1: And before we started recording, you said that this is 175 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,439 S1: actually unprecedented on a global stage. So tell me, in 176 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:48,000 S1: what way? 177 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,480 S3: Well, look, this really became public knowledge beginning in late 2018. 178 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,920 S3: And since then, which has been, what, seven years? I've 179 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,559 S3: never heard of something like this happening anywhere else in 180 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,320 S3: the world. The level and the scale of this of 181 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,840 S3: a of a a lawyer systematically informing on their own clients. 182 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,840 S3: I've never heard of a police force anywhere in the 183 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,839 S3: world who's recruited somebody who's violated these tenets of confidentiality 184 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,560 S3: and legal professional privilege in the way that it was 185 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,480 S3: so systematically done with Nicola Gobbo. Like, it just it 186 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,320 S3: hasn't happened. And you mix those two things together with 187 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,000 S3: convictions going into doubt, major convictions for murder, drug trafficking, 188 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,679 S3: all sorts of stuff like this. It's just it hasn't 189 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,200 S3: been replicated in the UK or Canada or the United States. 190 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,199 S3: It's just it's never happened anywhere like this before. 191 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,920 S1: We'll be right back. So, of course, Tony Mokbel is 192 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,480 S1: now before the courts again. He's been appealing his last conviction. 193 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,000 S1: So tell us about this. I guess the current case, 194 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,079 S1: because you did highlight earlier that it seems like he's 195 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,640 S1: in with a good shot to to have his conviction quashed. 196 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,920 S3: Yeah. I mean, basically what this last one is a 197 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,600 S3: major drug trafficking conviction as well. And what they're looking 198 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,640 S3: at is, was his interactions with Gaba at the time 199 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,200 S3: that these alleged crimes occurred and afterwards preparing his defence. 200 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,800 S3: What was her involvement with his legal strategy and how 201 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,000 S3: much of a handle did she have on that? What 202 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,760 S3: did she tell police? Did her involvement effectively change the outcome? 203 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,280 S3: And whether or not I mean, at the end of it, 204 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,280 S3: what this is about is whether or not the system 205 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:31,319 S3: could be trusted. 206 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,480 S1: And so it has to be asked, why did members 207 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,960 S1: of the Victorian police force actually use Nicola Gobbo as 208 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,480 S1: an informer, if it's so bad to do so? 209 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,439 S3: This is interesting, and I have some sympathy for them here, 210 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,760 S3: because back in the early 2000, the Melbourne's gangland war 211 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,040 S3: was out of control. People were dying quite regularly and 212 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,360 S3: some of them were dying very publicly, like shot in 213 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,280 S3: front of their kids at a at a football session. Um, 214 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,360 S3: there was enormous pressure for them to break this case, 215 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,199 S3: to stop the violence. And what Nicola Gobbo helped them 216 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,160 S3: to do was to break that wall, to break the 217 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,360 S3: wall of silence, because she was able to tell clients, 218 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,440 S3: you should you should really roll on, Tony, or you 219 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,600 S3: should roll on this person. You should roll on that person. 220 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,880 S3: It cracked the wall of silence, and she she basically 221 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,680 S3: helped develop a bunch of long term informers and witnesses 222 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,640 S3: that put a lot of people in jail. 223 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,120 S1: Okay, and what about Nicola Gobbo herself? Like, do we 224 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,720 S1: know why she went down this path and and where 225 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,560 S1: she is now? 226 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,720 S3: Well, that's that is a whole psychological study that's still 227 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,839 S3: waiting to be done about why she did this. I mean, 228 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,240 S3: the easy answer is she found herself too far in 229 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,560 S3: with her criminal clients. Her her safety, her sanity was 230 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,120 S3: at threat, and she thought the best way to stop 231 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,480 S3: this was to get them put in jail, to betray them, 232 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,640 S3: and to orchestrate the circumstances in which they could be 233 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,679 S3: arrested and charged and no longer in her life. That's 234 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,920 S3: the easy answer. The less easy answer is, and you 235 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,600 S3: can get this from reading her and her intelligence reports 236 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,920 S3: and informal reports. She quite clearly liked doing it as well, 237 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,319 S3: like there was a kind of a sense of accomplishment. 238 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,360 S3: There was a rush to it. Um, she she developed 239 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:15,000 S3: some kind of psychological satisfaction from doing this stuff. Um, yeah. Like, 240 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,440 S3: we could talk about it all day about what was 241 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,960 S3: actually going through her head. And I don't know that 242 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,800 S3: anyone has an answer. And even when she got on 243 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,640 S3: the stand to testify at the royal commission, she was 244 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,760 S3: circumspect about what her motives were for doing it. It's 245 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,640 S3: really hard to know where she is now. That's a 246 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,400 S3: good question. Um. Nobody knows. Nobody's supposed to know. 247 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,320 S1: Okay. And so back to Tony Mokbel is the fact 248 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,840 S1: that the court released him on bail. Is that a 249 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,920 S1: sign of of strength that he has in this case? 250 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,880 S3: Yeah. It's interesting. When they were making the application for 251 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,640 S3: bail and there was arguments for and against. The Office 252 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,880 S3: of Public Prosecutions stressed the fact that it's very, very 253 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,480 S3: unusual for persons facing crimes like this with this amount 254 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,480 S3: of sentence left to be given bail. So for the 255 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,640 S3: Court of Appeal to make the decision to release him 256 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,839 S3: on bail when there's still like six years to go 257 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,480 S3: before he could qualify for parole, tends for court watchers 258 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,920 S3: to suggest that they feel he's got a strong case 259 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,040 S3: to quash his convictions. Now, what comes out of that? 260 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,320 S3: They could quash the convictions and completely set them free. 261 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,720 S3: They could quash the convictions and then say, well, it's 262 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,400 S3: up to the prosecutor to decide whether or not to 263 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,000 S3: retry him again using uncorrupted evidence. So something that wasn't 264 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,760 S3: involving Nicola Gobbo, my colleague John Sylvester has written extensively 265 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,600 S3: about the fact that this last set of charges, a 266 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,240 S3: lot of it had to do with wiretaps and and 267 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,080 S3: electronic evidence as well, beyond what Nicola Gobbo's alleged involvement 268 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,760 S3: might be, so there is a possibility they could try 269 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,680 S3: to retry them, but I don't see it as likely. 270 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,559 S1: But what's actually stopping him from performing the same disappearing 271 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,480 S1: act that he did from nearly two decades ago? 272 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,080 S3: Well, this is funny because on the day, on the 273 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,280 S3: day he went for bail, right? So we're down in 274 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,000 S3: the court district on the original application day, and there's 275 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,640 S3: they bring him they bring him to the court and 276 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,040 S3: what looks like a tank like this, this basically an 277 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,080 S3: armored personnel carrier. Right. And there's I think there was eight, 278 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,440 S3: eight officers guarding him, guarding just the gate where he 279 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,880 S3: went through. And then there's another six guys inside the court. 280 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,199 S3: And I turned to someone and said, of all the 281 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,640 S3: days that Tony Mokbel would try to escape, today is 282 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,240 S3: not the day. He's you know, he's a hair away 283 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,920 S3: from from finding out if he's going to get bail. 284 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,560 S3: He's not going to run. Like why you got 14 285 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,200 S3: guys here. Like it's crazy. Then again, maybe. Look, maybe 286 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,200 S3: his safety is under threat as well. I don't know, but, um, 287 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,960 S3: the the reason he wouldn't run now is probably because 288 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,640 S3: he thinks or he's been told by his legal representatives 289 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,600 S3: that he stands a very strong chance of walking out 290 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,200 S3: a very free, like a totally free man by the 291 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,200 S3: end of 2025, early 2026. Um, plus, I can't imagine 292 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,240 S3: after 18 years in jail that he's got much of 293 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,440 S3: a nest egg to do a runner like he did 294 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,160 S3: when he was running the company, which was making tens 295 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,240 S3: of millions of dollars in drug trafficking money. 296 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,280 S1: Right. And I guess just to wrap up, Chris, I'm 297 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,880 S1: definitely left wondering why there have been no charges laid 298 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,080 S1: against Nicola Gobbo, against anyone in the Victorian police force. 299 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,960 S1: Can you sort of let us in on that? Because 300 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:09,840 S1: it seems puzzling. 301 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,440 S3: Sure. And this is this is one of the things 302 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,280 S3: I've found really bizarre and frustrating about this is having 303 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,600 S3: watched it since 2018, a Royal commission has come back 304 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,760 S3: and basically said, these people have done wrong. They recommended 305 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,440 S3: that they be investigated. So a special office was set 306 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,000 S3: up called the office of the Special Investigator from a 307 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,280 S3: former judge who ran it. He basically said person X, Y, z. 308 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,240 S3: They all need to be charged that decision, that recommendation 309 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,360 S3: was not picked up. And yet in Tony's appeal, we 310 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,920 S3: see a completely different judge basically say, well, they've engaged 311 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,720 S3: in a criminal conspiracy. So there's a disconnect here when 312 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,560 S3: it comes down to the pointy end, the person who 313 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,480 S3: has the ability to charge them is chosen not to 314 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,520 S3: charge them because they don't believe there's enough evidence. It's 315 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,600 S3: a bad look because there's a lot of people in 316 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,160 S3: the system who are still here that were there when 317 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,360 S3: this was going on. Police officers, there's lawyers that have 318 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,800 S3: become judges. Lots of people were involved in all this. 319 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,880 S3: They either saw it or they didn't say anything or 320 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,280 S3: they they did say anything and they were ignored. There's 321 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:15,960 S3: people who did the wrong thing. There's people who did 322 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,040 S3: the right thing. The system itself. We're not talking about 323 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,400 S3: something that happened in the Second World War. Everybody is dead. 324 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,960 S3: They're all still here. Mostly. And yet there's no outcome. Right. 325 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,280 S3: We spent $200 million on a royal commission. There's been 326 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,760 S3: millions and millions and millions spent on lawyers. And we've 327 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,400 S3: got no outcome. 328 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,880 S1: Thank you so much, Chris, for your time. 329 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:41,560 S3: Thank you. 330 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,920 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills, 331 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,960 S1: with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom McKendrick is our 332 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,080 S1: head of audio. The Morning Edition is a production of 333 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,800 S1: The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. To support our journalism, 334 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:07,280 S1: subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe 335 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,040 S1: and sign up for our morning newsletter to receive a 336 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,960 S1: comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and 337 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,560 S1: insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. 338 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,560 S1: I'm Samantha Morris. This is Morning Edition. Thanks for listening.