1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm Adam Schwab, I'm a dear Shiftlin and this is 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: the contrarians with Adam and Adire. Do you have you 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: ever used venture debt or growth credit in your businesses? 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: I haven't used it, but I think it's one of 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: the more interesting innovations that has come to growth capital 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: in the last decade. And I think, what if I 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: said to you, I don't think it gets enough credit. 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: You're totally right. The team at Mighty Partners have been 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: funding scaling Aussie businesses for five years by providing up 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: to five million dollars in flexible credit designed for high 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: growth businesses. 12 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: Well, five million dollars actually is a ton of money. 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: It's amazing, it's that high. That's some serious capital. 14 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Exactly. Some companies used to accelerate growth fund and acquisition 15 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: or extend runway, but growth credit can be a cheaper 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: and more flexible option without having to give up equity. 17 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. I think people are very 18 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: fixated on interest rate when it comes to ventured it, 19 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: which I do think is important. But the other side 20 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: of the coin is what the value of the equity 21 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: is That ultimately you're giving up when you venture funding. 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Totally and Mighty Partners have funded companies like Amber Electric, 23 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: Wi Money and Sprint Law. And if you want to 24 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: find a smarter way to fund your next phase, go 25 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: to Mighty Partners dot com, dot au, Forward slash Contrarians 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: and we're back to Ask Us Anything, Episode one oh seven. 27 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: Love these episodes, our listeners seem to love them. Last 28 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: play place in the audience. Mike obviously over to you 29 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: with the questions. 30 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 3: As always, Yes, thanks so much everyone for sending in questions. 31 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 3: And remember there are so many ways you can get 32 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 3: questions to us each week, including the LinkedIn thread. You 33 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: can comment on Spotify, There is our pod page. There 34 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: is voice messages which you can DM us anywhere, LinkedIn, Instagram, 35 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 3: et cetera. So thank you, so much so. This one 36 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: came in to my LinkedIn DMS. It is a voice 37 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: message and it comes from Josh here. 38 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 4: It is Hey guys, Josh here, love the show. I'm 39 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 4: in my early thirties, work pretty constantly through our my twenties, 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 4: but still don't feel like I can always keep up 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 4: with my finances. I know a lot of the rhetoric 42 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 4: out there from politicians and the media is that millennials 43 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 4: are too frivolous with their money, blaying smashed avocado, or 44 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 4: too many lates, what have you. But I wanted to 45 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 4: see in your experience. Are younger people just not good 46 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 4: with money? Or is there something bigger at play? 47 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: Cheers, great question, Josh, I think you're You're totally right 48 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: in that. I don't think millennials are any worse that money. 49 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: We talked about this a couple weeks agoing on this episode. 50 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: Financial education in Australian schools and public global schools is terrible. 51 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: I don't see millennials being any worse at managing money 52 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: than anyone. The difference is we've had this massive intergenerational 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: theft where older people, and theft is the wrong word 54 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: because it's not old people's. A lot of older people 55 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: actually help out younger people banker mum and dad and 56 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: paying for school for he's always kind of staff. But 57 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: older people have become a lot richer and poor, and 58 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: younger people become a lot poorer larger because of the 59 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: way our tax system works and the way our property 60 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: system works. So I don't blame Millennie Hills and gen 61 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: Z for having avocado toast because housing has become so unaffordable. 62 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: That the median price of a house is a million dollars, 63 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: but that forget the medium price. What you're looking at 64 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: median prices versus average incomes is now well over ten 65 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: to twelve times. Australia is the most expensive place in 66 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: the world, say from a couple of tax havens like 67 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: Hong Kong and Monaco, to buy a house. So I 68 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: don't blame younger people for being discouraged and investing in 69 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: experiences because you simply cannot buy a property because the 70 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: way the infrastructure and the way the tax system works 71 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: is completely leveled against younger people, so they've got no 72 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: chance up. This is where I disagree with Tim Gerner's 73 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: view and that you've got no choice. It's actually almost 74 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: impossible to get on this property ladder now in Australia, 75 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: the way the asset prices are bubbled so much. 76 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the way I think about this is 77 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: a huge amount of it comes down to property. You 78 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: know this Meslovs hierarchy of needs. I'm sure you've come 79 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: across this right and so yeah, at the bottom is 80 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: like physiological stuff, which is food and water and health. 81 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: I mean, like we're pretty lucky with that stuff in 82 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: the West, and so most millennials are fine with that stuff. 83 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: I mean some will have health things, but you're pretty 84 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: healthy as a cohort. Millennials still young. And the next 85 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: level up you start getting into safety stuff, which of 86 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 2: a shelter is the main one. And so it just 87 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: if you believe this messal of hierarchy, which I think 88 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: is very good, I mean not the first person to 89 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 2: say that, right like, then this is a very base need. 90 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: Shelter is a very base need. And you could argue, well, 91 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: renting is shelter, and it is like if you're renting 92 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: and it's secure, and in Australia we have very tough 93 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: laws about pulling shelter out from underneath renters. But it's 94 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: not as secure as owning a home. And it's pretty 95 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: obvious why home ownership has such a strong emotion, is 96 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: such a strong emotional driver for human beings. And by 97 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 2: the way, the next one up is like love and belonging, 98 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: so like they're big on that right there, they've nailed that. 99 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: One of the next one up is self esteem. I 100 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: think that's not for them. And so now you think 101 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 2: about the cost of home ownership, which home ownership was. 102 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it was universal forty years ago, but 103 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: I mean it was. The aspiration to own a home 104 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: in Australia was universal. 105 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: I think the actual percentage of home ownership has generally 106 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: been around two thirds, almost always, Like I don't think 107 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: the actual number is. It's dropped a little bit, but 108 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: it hasn't changed dramatic. What's happening is you have to 109 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: spend a lot more of your income paying off mortgage. 110 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: The actual percentage has changed that much. 111 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: And I would say forty years ago there was a universal, 112 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: close enough to universal aspiration for home ownership and it 113 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: felt attainable. And if you look at millennials today, number one, 114 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that there's universal aspiration for home ownership 115 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: because people just don't necessarily feel it's attainable. A chunk 116 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: of people given up. People are given up, they've given up. 117 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: And secondly, if you do attain it, as you just 118 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: said it, choose a huge amount of your income, like 119 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: a demonstrably mathematically much larger proportion than historically. And so 120 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: what does that mean. It means you're going to feel poor. 121 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: Either you really are a bit poor because you're paying 122 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: this crazy mortgage or you can't afford property and you've 123 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: given up, in which case you feel poor. And I 124 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: think that is probably one of the fundamental drivers of 125 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: issues that millennials are having and the other driver, and 126 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: I think these might be linked. The other driver is 127 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: something that you speak about a lot, which is the 128 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: complete normalization of enormous debt burdens at the individual level. 129 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: And I think that people are basically spending money that 130 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: they don't have on things that they don't need and 131 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: that previous generations wouldn't have considered a viable purchase. And 132 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: all of that emotion like kind of agglomerates and creates 133 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: a sensation where you feel very poor and that you're 134 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: financially struggling. And some of it's unfortunate and societal, and 135 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: some of it's maybe not the best personal choices of 136 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: a generation. But I don't think it's imagined, and I 137 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: don't think it comes down to worse financial management. But 138 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: I do think some of it comes down to different 139 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: decisions about using debt to make discretionary purchases. And obviously 140 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: I'm talking here in very generalized terms about a generation. 141 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: But I don't think you're blaming millennial like I don't 142 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: think millennial is any different to any other generation here. 143 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: I think millennials just haven't had the chance to buy 144 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: assets at a semi reasonable price, So either don't buy 145 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: at all, or you lump with this debt result of 146 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: older generations. I don't think you blame millennials in any 147 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: way for this. 148 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to use the word blame, because 149 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: I like, I mean, ultimately, it's people's lives, but they 150 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: can do what they want. But I am saying I 151 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: do think that millennials, and also the top end of 152 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: gen Z they are, they do demonstrate a preparedness to 153 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: use debt to purchase depreciating discretionary assets that I would 154 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: have thought were not realistic for me to purchase at 155 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: the same stage. And I think that has been what 156 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: kind of assets you mean cars or what are we 157 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: talking about? Yeah, well, just luxury goods in general have 158 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: been driven globally by a willingness for people to use 159 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: debt to purchase these depreciating assets. And I just don't 160 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: think that was the case twenty years earlier. And I 161 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: don't think it's a healthy way for people to manage 162 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: their finances. 163 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: I think I'm not sure there's any data to support that. Necessarily, 164 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: I think to answer the question, I don't think. I 165 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: don't think millennials financial behavior is any worse or there's 166 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: any better than older generations. They just they've been given 167 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: a dune. As I'm learning myself, obviously I'm maybe biased, 168 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: and obviously or a gen XA slash Baby booms, obviously 169 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: you've got different views about this to youngsters like myself. 170 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: But realistically I don't think there's any difference. I think 171 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: Millennia's is given a dead hand and they've been have 172 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: to grow up in this. We haven't had a recession 173 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: since we didn't even Australian him and have one. Australia 174 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: hasn't had a recession is twenty oh two. What happens 175 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: in a recession is young people get a chance to 176 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: buy assets, to open restaurants that do stuff and rather 177 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: and by the RBA and government's continually expanding the money 178 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: base and being running huge efforts every time there's a 179 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: whiff of a recession. We haven't given young people a 180 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: chance to do what older people have had a chance 181 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: to for millennia, for generation of generation. So it's been 182 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: a constant fat a war against young people. So what 183 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: chance they have. 184 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's true. I mean I think, look 185 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: if dollar for dollar, it would surprise me if gen 186 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: X did not have more debt than millennials, even if 187 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 2: you take out mortgage debt, because they're older, right, so 188 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: they probably just accumulated more debt. But maybe I'm wrong 189 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: about that. It just feels to me that the rise 190 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: of dis like if I look at people under the 191 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: age of forty and the types of cars and just 192 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: kind of general luxury goods that are owned, it feels 193 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: like it's more than the gen X equivalent. But you 194 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: know what, I'm not basing that on data, but a lot. 195 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: Of millennials don't have cars at all, So I'm not sure. 196 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: That's well in Australia. In Australia, we neither us have 197 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: great data on this, maybe exactly, but I definitely would 198 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: agree with you. I don't think. I think the primary 199 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: cause is people that own property are having so much 200 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: of their income chewed up in mortgage payments that it 201 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: as a tremendous effect on their overall sense of feeling 202 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: wealthy or poor. 203 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, next question. 204 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: Okay, the next question actually came in from our pod 205 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: page website on the contact form there and it is 206 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: from Laura Karrocci. Given that our education systems appear fundamentally 207 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: misaligned with twenty first century needs, and I will add 208 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: we did speak about this briefly in the last Q 209 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 3: and A. Should we abandon incremental reform in favor of 210 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: complete system redesign and should parents seriously consider alternate models 211 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: outside of the existing system. My core concern in a 212 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: world transforming at a fast pace, are we systematically under 213 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 3: preparing an entire generation? And what would truly transformative education 214 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 3: look like if we started from scratch, prioritizing adaptability, critical thinking, 215 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: and practical competencies over in institutional inertia. 216 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think those three aspirations, like that is the 217 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: purpose of the education system. Institutional inertia was like not 218 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: one of the primary tenets that will put together for 219 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: school education. The challenge is it hasn't changed much in 220 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: the last couple of hundred years, the structure of school. 221 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: Like obviously my views on this are well known to 222 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: listeners of this podcast. Like, I think that a lot 223 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 2: of what is taught in school is the wrong stuff, 224 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: and not enough of the right stuff is taught in school. 225 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: I don't generally favor revolution. In fact, I don't like revolution, 226 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: like revolution of all sorts results in like blood on 227 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: the streets metaphorically speaking. In this case, I much prefer evolutionary, 228 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: gradual change. And I think I always start my thinking 229 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: about this particular problem with what do I think are 230 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: the most important things that I would want kids to 231 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: know to be well functioning, productive, happy adults. And I 232 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: don't think enough of that stuff is being taught. But 233 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 2: I don't think it needs a revolution. I do think 234 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 2: it needs a restructure of the way the education system 235 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: is designed. You probably want to blow everything up, would 236 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: be my guess. Yeah, you'll be shocked, and I want 237 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: a revolution. I think we start with tertiary. I think 238 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: universities have lost the plot. 239 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: I was not that much. I agree with Trump on 240 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: but I agree with him on this. I think we 241 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: actually need to just remove the whole university's inm to 242 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: start again. And I think we start it with really 243 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: strong vocational So you have a medical school, you have 244 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 1: a legal school, you have an accounting school. You have 245 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: specific sort of universities funded by the industry, and they're 246 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: very specific, and you get rid of these big sort 247 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: of liberal arts, massive monolithic institutions obviously have a medical school. 248 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: I think you have very specific vocational tertiary education, and 249 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: get rid of this big sort of three four five 250 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: year holiday that people seem to take with the twelve 251 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: contact hours a week protesting the war in Gaza for 252 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: eight percent of the time. I think clearly the university 253 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: have gone far to left wing, far too woke. There's 254 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: no I think they have to start to start again. 255 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: In fact, like, obviously I agree with you and that 256 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: I don't. You know, we always disagree on liberal arts 257 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: are like liberal arts. But like the majority of university 258 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: students are not protesting guards, I tiny minority are. 259 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm not blaming the student, I'm blaming univers lecturers like 260 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: a mighty even an a lecturers are far left woke, never 261 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: had real jobs like the hopeless. 262 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: Well you say never had real jobs. But you know 263 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: if in the in your university, in the Adam Schwab 264 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: University of the Future, you would say teaching those tertiary 265 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: students is a real job. 266 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm talking about the vocational area. There's a lot 267 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: of people who teach you work at university who actually 268 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: do have jobs and do it as seat of adjunct 269 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: type roles, which is which is great. 270 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 2: But why do you think that being a high school 271 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: teacher is a real job. But being a university lecturer 272 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: is not a real. 273 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: Job with if you're teaching liberal arts, I don't think 274 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a real job. I don't think it contribute an 275 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: anying to anyone. 276 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: I know. Well, well, let's agree to disagree on that, right. 277 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: I think I don't think Western society would be what 278 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: it is without the liberal arts. But if you say 279 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: to me, I think I'll just do the more restrained 280 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: version of what you're saying. But because I think I 281 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: find that we I find that we ninety nine percent 282 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: agree on everything, I just am not like like the 283 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 2: way I think about it is slightly different. But I 284 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: think what I would say about liberal arts is, well, 285 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: this is where we possibly don't agree. I think liberal 286 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: arts is really important in shaping Western liberal democracy. But 287 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: what is going on in universities today is inconsistent with 288 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: the kind of liberal arts that would be positively reinforcing 289 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: Western liberal democracy. That's my issue with liberal arts. 290 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: I think it's too far gone. Like it's when you've 291 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: got always arts lecturers supporting Hamas and supporting Iran like 292 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: you can't. They're not compatible. I think he's got to 293 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: get rid of it and start again. That's the problem. 294 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: They've got huge bloated struck like these vice Chances earned 295 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: two three four million dollars a year. It's crazy, and 296 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: they're funded by taxpayers and international students. 297 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: The whole thing stinks, and so let's agree. I think 298 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: what you're saying that I'm agreeing with is it should 299 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: be much more vocationally oriented and probably we should bring 300 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: technical training back. So you know, there used to be 301 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: technical college and they were all subsumed into universities. I 302 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: feel they're still there, still are who are not many? 303 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: Like RT in Melbourne was not a university. It was 304 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: for vocational technological based training. And like I'm talking about 305 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: Melbourne because I just not better obviously, but like Corefield 306 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: Campus of Monash was like the Corefield Tech or something 307 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: like that same thing, and so all of these technical 308 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: vocational tertiary institutions were subsued into the university structure. I 309 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: would I would unwind that. I think it's important to 310 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: have vocationally focused we. 311 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: Should have it. We should have our own universities or 312 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. That teach code in 313 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: the teach Ai've actually teach stuff that is beneficial. It 314 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: was acan economics, medicine, engineering, science. There's some very very 315 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: necessary church education that we need. We need to teach students. 316 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: We don't need to teach them philosophy and sex, drugs 317 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: and rock and roll, which is what they taught in 318 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: my day for these art students who just an absolute 319 00:15:59,240 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: waste of time. 320 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: So, so what about high school? Rather than me aching 321 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: with you about philosophy's tell me about high school. 322 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: I think high school is fifty percent waste of time. 323 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: Like we talked about maths and all that stuff, which 324 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: is useless. Like, I think half of what they teach 325 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: at school, best cases, could be removed from the syllabus 326 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: and it should be much more practical, which mean again 327 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: we talked about it last week, finance, AI coding. I 328 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: think maths above year eight is probably useless for anybody 329 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: who's not engineering, Like I don't need what I've never 330 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: done any I've never used any of that stuff for 331 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: one second in my life after year even year seven. 332 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: What I'm kind of correcting on is so what you're 333 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: saying is pure maths after year eight is pointless, but 334 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: applied Maths is what makes the world go round, and 335 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: so probably you want to keep. 336 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: So people are going to be mathematicians and engineers, absolute 337 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: should study that. 338 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: But that's not they can study pure maths so they 339 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: can go down the calculus route. Okay, people that are 340 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: not going to be, they should study maths that lets 341 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 2: you budget and do and understand what a mortgage is 342 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: and do those. That's still it's still maths. I mean 343 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: I think it's mass because it's called finance. You wouldn't 344 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: consider that maths, right, It's not. 345 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: Why I teaching mass. Yeah, I'm talking about the current 346 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: mass curriculum. The numbers, let's just call maths numbers. Like 347 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: the numbers that you learn about should be the numbers 348 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: that you're involved in using in day to day life, 349 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: so that you know, for the previous question, for example, 350 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: your ability to understand what's going on financially and make 351 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: decisions has been strengthened through the high school education curriculum. Yeah. Like, 352 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: if if you said, what would be more useful, I 353 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: reckon if you had a class thirty students listen to 354 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: every acquired episode or like thirty acquired episodes and talking 355 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: about business and competitive vantage that would be more useful 356 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: than anything they teach at school at the moment, way 357 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: more useful. 358 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: And so what about so you talk about some other things, 359 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: So tell me. I alwayst feel like the way that 360 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: AI is being handled now by educational institutions is very weird. 361 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: It's kind of saying to students, we're going to stop you. 362 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: We're going to try and stop you using the thing 363 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: that you're going to be using every day in your 364 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: life after you finish school. It's strange, right, But then again, 365 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: there's all this cheating issue that's going on that's real. 366 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: And so how would you deal with AI if you 367 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 2: were designing a curriculum? 368 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: This is again where teachers in many cases aren't sort 369 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: of in the real world. You should be setting tests 370 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: based on using AI and who can use AI in 371 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: the most effective way. But that will require the teachers 372 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: to understand how I, which they don't. And I don't 373 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: blame them because it'sbviously super complex and super new, But like, 374 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: if you're really wanting to actually help students, you'd actually again, 375 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: as I think the Financial Review trying to clear podcasts 376 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: talked about and I agree with them, get kids to 377 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: become AI and ninjas. They should be learning how to 378 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: use AI in a practical sense. Problem is that people 379 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: teaching them not how to use it, so we can't 380 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: ask for the impossible. 381 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: I think that's very important. Like I think if you 382 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: said to someone craft an argument about this, you can 383 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: use AI freely, you should be using AI, and then 384 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: you're going to need to have a discussion to defend 385 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 2: your position on this. In person, you would teach them 386 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: more than they would otherwise learn, and one of the 387 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: most important things you would teach them is how wrong 388 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: AI gets it so often, and how you need to 389 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: augment what you're learning from AI with other more reliable sources, 390 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 2: and then they would have to assimilate that knowledge and 391 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: defend it. So I think that definitely has to change. 392 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,239 Speaker 2: Asap AI. We cannot live in a world where you know, 393 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: the car has come along, and what we're saying is like, 394 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 2: let's figure out who's bringing petrol into the classroom so 395 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 2: the horses can keep moving, you know, Like I think 396 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: it's it's it's terrible. And then my last question about 397 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: high school, so. 398 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: That's jumping before you ask this question, So i'd completely 399 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: so I think almost every they teach languages forget about 400 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: Duralalinger can do it, you know better, way better than 401 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: any teacher. 402 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: Okay, disagree, but keep going. 403 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: It's true, it's proven is far better. 404 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think due lingo can teach you. Duelinger 405 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: cannot teach you language. 406 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: Fluence absolutely canon does anyway, hang. 407 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: On, Even the founder of Duelinga says, this can make 408 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 2: you fluent by itself in a language. 409 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: It's a far more effective way. I did German for 410 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: multiple years, you did. We both did Hebrew like I can't. 411 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: I was usually it was a complete waste of time. 412 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: If I did you even far better speaking German, if 413 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: I did your lingo then than three years of wasting 414 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: time in the German class, absolute waste of time. 415 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 2: That was well, it might have something to do with 416 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: the motivation you had learning German at school versus your 417 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: motivation today if you used you a lingo as well. Right, 418 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: it's not like for. 419 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: Like that's that's kind of my point. While we force 420 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: people to do this, they want to do. 421 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: While we don't let me stop your keep your momentum, 422 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: keep going secondary school. 423 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: So get rid of I think English people should do 424 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: so get this well, get rid of, get rid of languages, 425 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: pretty much all science. This can be electives. If you 426 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: want to do it, you can do it enforcing. 427 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 2: You know, there's a bit of a problem in the 428 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: world of people making up facts and not being grounded 429 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: in science. 430 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: Like when all the doctors told us COVID was not 431 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: what it was, So like, thanks, thanks doctors, So that 432 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: disgrace the medical profession. Anyway, get rid of sience, like 433 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: people can do what they want to. I'm not saying 434 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: we should ban it. I'm saying, don't force people to 435 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: do it, is my point. I'm saying it should be 436 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: an equal opportunity choice. 437 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: If they would have taught people basic science in high 438 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: school in a better and more engaging way, I don't 439 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 2: think we would have had the problems that you love 440 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: ranting about with COVID because people would have understood some 441 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: of the basics of science with it. And so look, 442 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 2: I'm more skeptical about just skipping huge chunks of human knowledge. 443 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm saying, don't make it compulsory, saying if people want 444 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: to do like chemistry invulging, that's the stuff they can. 445 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say ban it. I'm saying don't 446 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: force it. So get rid of languages get what else 447 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: compulsory language can get rid of compulsory mass. I think 448 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: we should be. I think accounting economic should be compulsory. 449 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: English should be compulsory, and then I think food, like 450 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: learning how to eat healthily should be compulsory. Financial literacy 451 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: should be compulsory, pea should be compulsory, and everything else 452 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: can be electives, civics. I don't know what do you 453 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: define as civics exactly? 454 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: That politics study well, how political system works, why Western 455 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: democracy makes people free and be option optional? You want 456 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: to be optional in a country that has compulsory voting. 457 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: You want it to be optional to teach people how 458 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 2: the political system works. 459 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm not saying I think it should. 460 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: Be optional, I would definitely put that in. 461 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: I think if very few compulsory subjects and mostly optional. 462 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: But I think learning how to eat healthily absolutely should 463 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: be compulsory, because, like otherwise, you die and you become fat. 464 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: That's much more important than learning chemistry, which I've never done. 465 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: For a second, after I left you twelve. 466 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: I think it happens in the reverse order, by the way, 467 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 2: I think you become fat and then you die. Usually 468 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: that's the order of things but I take your points. Yes, well, 469 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: either way, it's not pleasant. But I think we just 470 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: kept teaching completely the wrong. It needs to be almost 471 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 2: taken back to zero and starting again because it's so wrong. 472 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: It's just mine, not only wrong. 473 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 2: And you're but you're okay with kindom finger painting can 474 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: stay right, you don't have an ideological opposition to that. Yeah, 475 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: it's very messy. I always hated it. I thought it 476 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: was terribly messy. 477 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: It'd be shocked, and I wasn't a big fan of 478 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: the arts. 479 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know it might you might surprise you 480 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: to know that everybody is interested in business and we 481 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: do need some other people to make the world go round. 482 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: No, but you do need to You do need to 483 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: have money to a forward stuff and buy like if 484 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: you want of the bright house rented like that, you 485 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: have to live like that's compulsory. You can't be looked 486 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: after your whole life. Whereas chemistry, biology, mass, that's all. 487 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: It's all optional, Like if you want to study that, 488 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: by all means, study it, but don't force the studies. 489 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: My point, No, I think like we're sixty percent overlapping 490 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: on this, we're one hundred percent overlapping that it needs 491 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: to change. We're no percent overlapping of revolution versus evolution, 492 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: and we're sixty percent overlapping on what the what the 493 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: curriculum should be. And if we can only agree sixty percent, 494 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: what the hell chance does the world have to. 495 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: Agree what we agree with? The currency is the current 496 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: situation's ridiculous and this is how do we fix it? 497 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: Great question, Thank you, Laura. Fantasy question. We'll go to 498 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: a super quick ad break and back with our last question. 499 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: Do you have you ever used venture debt or growth 500 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: credit in your businesses? 501 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 2: I haven't used it, but I think it's one of 502 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: the more interesting innovations that has come to growth capital 503 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: in the last decade. And I think, what if I 504 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: said to you, I don't think it gets enough credit, 505 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: You're totally right. 506 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: The team at Mighty Partners been funding scaling Aussie businesses 507 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: for five years by providing up to five million dollars 508 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: in flexible credit designed for high growth businesses. 509 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: Well, five million dollars actually is a ton of money. 510 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: It's amazing, it's that high. That's some serious capital. 511 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: Exactly. Some companies used to accelerate growth funded acquisition or 512 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: extend runway, but growth credit can be a cheaper and 513 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: more flexible option without having to give up equity. 514 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. I think people are very 515 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 2: fixated on interest rate when it comes to venture it, 516 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 2: which I do think is important. But the other side 517 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: of the coin is what the value of the equity 518 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: is that ultimately you're giving up when you take venture funding. 519 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: Totally and Mighty Partners have funded companies like Amber Electric, 520 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: Wi Money and Sprint Law And if you want to 521 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 1: find a smarter way to fund your next phase, go 522 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: to Mighty Partners dot com dot au, forward slash contrarians 523 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: and We're bad. Question number three Mike Okay. 524 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: This question comes in on our LinkedIn thread from James. 525 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 3: Here is the question, as the contrarians, what is your 526 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 3: current most contrarian view. 527 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is the most contrarian, but certainly 528 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: my views on the stock market or equities. I think 529 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: it's gross. So equities at the record high, which means 530 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: people really want to buy equities now. It's a record 531 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: high based not just raw terms, but Cape Sheller like 532 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: every possible inexits at a record high. So I'm incredibly 533 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: bearish on equities now, Like I think when equities hit 534 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: a record. It's the absolute time where you know something's 535 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: going to go wrong. We've obviouslyt a that stuff happening 536 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: with Trump and tariffs, and who knows what happened there. 537 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: You've got interest rates at a pretty low level, so 538 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: very little firepower for central banks to fire again. You've 539 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: got US running massive deficits that US could be bankrupt 540 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: in bankrupts the defaulty on its debt in the next ten years, 541 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: and knows something trains draught drastically. It feels like everything's 542 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: pointing to boom busting any minute. And I think that's 543 00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: relatively contrarian. 544 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: That's contrue, and I think some people might believe that, 545 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: but nobody wants to say it because everybody just wants 546 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: to keep writing the train up basically roller coaster up. 547 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: People want to keep dancing all the music playing Chack 548 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: Prince for CP Sidigret. 549 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: So you can tell me if you think this is contrue, 550 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: and I'm not sure it is. It's so kind of 551 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: a bit more technical. I suppose when I look at 552 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: generative AI, I feel like the problems and limitations that 553 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: are being encountered at the moments are not just the 554 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: early teething problems of the technology. I think they are 555 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: fundamental limitations of the way the technology is built, ie 556 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: the pattern recognition that comes out of vector space. I know, 557 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: Apple just put out a paper recently. It's very controversial 558 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 2: about how much AI can actually achieve and is it 559 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 2: thinking and is it not? But I think what we're 560 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: going to find is that a whole lot of AI, 561 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: generative AI never reaches the potential we believe in today, 562 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: or that many people believe in today. And we are 563 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: at the bluest of blue sky moments in AI, and 564 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 2: for example, like hallucinations or like the fabrication of answers, 565 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: that turns out to be fundamental to the models and 566 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: an insurmountable problem. And so my guess is AI is 567 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: much much more likely to become a tool for use 568 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: by human beings than some way of replacing complex thinking 569 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: by human beings. And one of the reasons I say 570 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: that is one of them is technical reasons, because like 571 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: I've kind of spent quite a bit of time over 572 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: the last decade around AI of various sorts, and I've 573 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 2: seen it never quite deliver a run out of puff. 574 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: And the other reason I think that is because as 575 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: a pattern recognition engine. It may well be amazing at 576 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: seeing patterns that we're not seeing, but the ability to 577 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: be creative maybe is the way i'd put it. I'm 578 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: unconvinced that that is something that is inherently a strength 579 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: of a system that is fundamentally a pattern recognition system. 580 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't have the same fear or the 581 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 2: same like euphoria about AI that I think most people have. 582 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: I still remain much, much, much more worried about human 583 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: beings and their potential for destruction than I am worried 584 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: about AI and its potential for destruction. I think that 585 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: will be very useful in some areas where like customer service, 586 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: for example, I think will be very useful where you 587 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: can basically say here are a large number of parameters 588 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: and provide answers and solutions within those parameters. I mean, 589 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 2: the simpler it isn't, the more process driven, the better 590 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: it's going to be. But if you say to me, 591 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: do I think the majority of human interactions with companies 592 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: are going to be replaced by agentic AI? I think 593 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: it feels unlikely to me, But I do think that 594 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: agentic AI will fundamentally change the Maybe this isn't a 595 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: contrary and view the other way. I've said this before. 596 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: We live in a world today where the predominant interface 597 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: of the Internet is like the infinite scroll, and I 598 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: think we're going to see a transformation where it becomes 599 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: the chat dialogue box of agentic AI, and so I think, yes, 600 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: that will be a fundamental change of the Internet. But 601 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: I still think we'll be interacting with lots of human beings. 602 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: I think that was a great answer. I actually agree 603 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: with you completely there, which is uncontroversial. But thank you Mike, 604 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 1: thank you, I Dear. Great episode. As always, We'll be 605 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: back next week with our long episode on Tuesday. Thanks 606 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: again for the questions everyone, great questions. As always, we 607 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: love our listeners and you do an amazing job at 608 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: challenging us thinking new things and thinking differently.