1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,520 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,320 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Wednesday, 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:16,640 S1: December 17th. When Michael Visconti heard of the shootings at 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,040 S1: Bondi Beach on Sunday. His first instinct was to call 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,560 S1: his son, who often swam there. Then came the sickening 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,320 S1: feeling of dread when he didn't answer his phone. Again 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,320 S1: and again, something that thickened his dread even further was 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,920 S1: a family history that taught him to always be alert 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,240 S1: to possible threats. His father and grandfather survived the Holocaust 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,560 S1: after living in concentration camps. His maternal grandmother was killed 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,000 S1: in Auschwitz. And he's far from alone. Australia has a 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,120 S1: higher proportion of Holocaust survivors than any country in the 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,080 S1: world besides Israel. Today, Michael Visconti, author of the book 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,360 S1: Noble Fragments about his family history and a former senior 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,460 S1: editor at the Sydney Morning Herald on how this unique 16 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:05,220 S1: makeup of Australian Jewry is coloring how the community is 17 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:11,180 S1: feeling now. So, Michael, welcome to the Morning Edition. It's 18 00:01:11,180 --> 00:01:13,220 S1: a bit surreal because we've known each other a very 19 00:01:13,220 --> 00:01:14,940 S1: long time, and yet you've never been on. 20 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,940 S2: No. Thank you, Samantha, it's lovely to be here with you. 21 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:21,620 S1: Okay, so I have to ask, first off, of all 22 00:01:21,620 --> 00:01:24,259 S1: the conversations you've had with members of the Jewish community 23 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:29,020 S1: since Sunday's horrible attack at Bondi Beach has the reality 24 00:01:29,020 --> 00:01:32,260 S1: that one of the victims was a Holocaust survivor hit 25 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:36,860 S1: in a particularly, I guess, strong way. Or differently because 26 00:01:36,860 --> 00:01:40,540 S1: you yourself, you come from what you call Holocaust survivor stock. 27 00:01:40,540 --> 00:01:42,259 S1: So this is something you're very familiar with. 28 00:01:42,660 --> 00:01:47,660 S2: Well, it's something particularly poignant when you read that one 29 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:50,940 S2: of the victims who died was a Holocaust survivor and 30 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:55,060 S2: had been through all of that horror at the time 31 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:58,420 S2: as a much younger person, and then had come out 32 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:03,520 S2: here and recreated a new life, Only to be gunned 33 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,240 S2: down in such a terrible, um, sickening way at a 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,520 S2: celebration which is really, you know, one of the most 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,480 S2: joyous festivals of the Jewish year, and which people have 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,040 S2: sort of taken for granted as a lovely way to 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,679 S2: end the year, each year in the Jewish community. 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,600 S1: And I should sort of mention here we're talking about 39 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,480 S1: Alex Kleitman. He was a native of Ukraine and reportedly 40 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,480 S1: leaves behind two children and 11 grandchildren, just to sort 41 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,400 S1: of paint a bit of a picture of his life. 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,240 S1: And as I mentioned there, you said you are, you know, 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,840 S1: you come from Holocaust survivors. So maybe tell me a 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,079 S1: bit about that. And I guess, yeah, perhaps even what 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,640 S1: your own response was when you heard that Alex had died. Obviously, 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,200 S1: it goes without saying it's a tragedy, no matter who 47 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,400 S1: died in his massacre. 48 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,160 S2: So my own background, Samantha is of Hungarian Jewish stock, 49 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,799 S2: and my father's family were in concentration camps during the war. 50 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,690 S2: My grandfather was in Mauthausen in Austria, and my father 51 00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:09,370 S2: and his mother were in Auschwitz. My grandmother was killed there, 52 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:12,250 S2: but my father survived, obviously. And then he and his 53 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:15,170 S2: father came to Australia after the war and started a 54 00:03:15,169 --> 00:03:18,690 S2: new life here. Uh, that has weighed very heavily on 55 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:21,290 S2: me all my life, really. I sort of have breathed 56 00:03:21,290 --> 00:03:24,810 S2: in the shadow of their experience and then heard about 57 00:03:24,810 --> 00:03:28,810 S2: it as I grew older. And it has sort of shaped, 58 00:03:28,850 --> 00:03:31,490 S2: I guess, the way that I see myself and the 59 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:34,970 S2: way that I've looked at Australian society. And that's been 60 00:03:34,970 --> 00:03:38,250 S2: true for a lot of, uh, young Jewish people here 61 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:41,370 S2: in Australia because of the, the background of the community. 62 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:47,730 S2: I always felt that there was this, uh, sort of 63 00:03:47,770 --> 00:03:51,890 S2: bigger story hanging over me, and it defined I, I 64 00:03:52,090 --> 00:03:56,090 S2: guess the way that, uh, I would look at myself 65 00:03:56,090 --> 00:03:58,930 S2: as a, as a young boy in Australia, I would, 66 00:03:58,970 --> 00:04:03,910 S2: I guess, gravitate towards, um, other Jewish kids, and there 67 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:07,870 S2: was a sense of something very strong in common in 68 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:12,070 S2: our backgrounds without really being explained properly, because many of 69 00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:15,230 S2: us had had very similar experiences in terms of what 70 00:04:15,230 --> 00:04:20,230 S2: their parents had gone through. Uh, and so really growing 71 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:22,110 S2: up like that, you have a sense of being a 72 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:25,750 S2: Jew and then everybody else being not a Jew. And 73 00:04:26,110 --> 00:04:30,630 S2: it's not very articulated when you're a young person, but 74 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:34,510 S2: that feeling develops as you get older. And in the 75 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:39,029 S2: last 10 or 15 years it's taken, I guess, much 76 00:04:39,029 --> 00:04:44,589 S2: more difficult and confrontational types of, um, expressions because of, uh, 77 00:04:44,630 --> 00:04:46,150 S2: what's been happening in Australia. 78 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:57,310 S1: And so, Michael, I really wanted to speak to you 79 00:04:57,310 --> 00:05:00,990 S1: today because of something you recently spoke about to the 80 00:05:00,990 --> 00:05:04,250 S1: New Yorker magazine, and that is that Australia has a 81 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:08,370 S1: higher proportion of Holocaust survivors than any other country besides Israel. 82 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:10,929 S1: So by how much is this the case in comparison 83 00:05:10,930 --> 00:05:12,289 S1: to other countries and why? 84 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:16,650 S2: Well, that's certainly true. It is the second highest proportion 85 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:20,970 S2: of Holocaust survivors in the Jewish population now besides Israel. 86 00:05:21,130 --> 00:05:23,490 S2: I can't tell you what the exact difference is between 87 00:05:23,490 --> 00:05:26,690 S2: us and the next country, but it is very significant, 88 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:30,090 S2: and it has had a crucial role in shaping the 89 00:05:30,089 --> 00:05:33,770 S2: identity and the the spirit of the community here as 90 00:05:33,770 --> 00:05:37,089 S2: to why it happened as it did. Well, part of 91 00:05:37,089 --> 00:05:39,650 S2: it is distance. At the end of the war, so 92 00:05:39,650 --> 00:05:44,490 S2: many Holocaust survivors and refugees from Eastern and Central Europe, 93 00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:46,809 S2: all across the continent, wanted to get as far away 94 00:05:46,810 --> 00:05:51,050 S2: from Europe as they could. It was just a visceral urge. 95 00:05:51,770 --> 00:05:54,370 S2: Many of them went to America, but a lot of 96 00:05:54,370 --> 00:05:57,730 S2: people were denied entry into America. So in my own 97 00:05:57,730 --> 00:06:02,770 S2: family's case, my father was allowed entry, but his father 98 00:06:02,830 --> 00:06:07,390 S2: and later his stepmother were denied a visa. And so, 99 00:06:07,390 --> 00:06:11,110 S2: like many other people, they heard that Australia was taking 100 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:17,909 S2: refugees and Holocaust survivors, stateless people. And so what that 101 00:06:17,910 --> 00:06:23,230 S2: meant was that it made the community here very sensitized 102 00:06:23,230 --> 00:06:29,270 S2: to threats of anti-Semitism, to the spectra of hostility towards Jews, 103 00:06:30,190 --> 00:06:34,630 S2: whether it was minor, accumulated or sporadic. And so that 104 00:06:34,630 --> 00:06:38,109 S2: has shaped the ethos of the community over the generations 105 00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:42,590 S2: as survivors themselves have died, their children, like myself and 106 00:06:42,589 --> 00:06:47,830 S2: their grandchildren, who have breathed in their grandparents experiences and 107 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:52,789 S2: and fears, then have expressed them, I guess, more openly 108 00:06:52,790 --> 00:06:55,150 S2: as a community. And so this has shaped the way 109 00:06:55,190 --> 00:06:58,870 S2: that the community responds to threats and incidents, and it 110 00:06:58,870 --> 00:07:02,470 S2: also shapes the way that the communal leadership of the 111 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,120 S2: community also responds because they are speaking to their community. 112 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,559 S1: And I really want to ask you about how this 113 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,800 S1: ethos in the community, how this might impact the way 114 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,920 S1: a lot of Jewish people here respond to this massacre 115 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,880 S1: on Sunday, because you and I, we may be a 116 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,960 S1: generation apart, probably less than a generation apart, but we 117 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,400 S1: we would have grown up, I imagine, with the exact 118 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,920 S1: same refrain which every Jewish person I know knows which 119 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,960 S1: is never again. Right. It's something it's drummed into you. 120 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,320 S1: If we don't heed the lessons of the Holocaust and 121 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,240 S1: other genocides, it could happen again. You know, if we 122 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,800 S1: don't respond to the early warning signs, it could happen again. 123 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,440 S1: So do you think that many Jews in Australia are 124 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,840 S1: now viewing this attack as proof that the government, or 125 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,880 S1: Australians in general, perhaps haven't been taking the signs of 126 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,440 S1: rising anti-Semitism seriously enough? 127 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,920 S2: Well, I would say the, uh, the way that we've, um, 128 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,120 S2: the community has responded to it has reflected that Holocaust 129 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,420 S2: survivor background and the vigilance about anti-Semitism and the sense 130 00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:09,540 S2: that the threat is ever present. Speaking for myself when 131 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:12,140 S2: I was a young boy in the 60s, 70s, and 132 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:14,460 S2: then as a young man in the 80s, it didn't 133 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:17,980 S2: feel that it was very real or imminent. But I 134 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:21,260 S2: must say that in the last 10 or 15 years, 135 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:25,180 S2: that situation has changed, and everybody else in the community 136 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:29,100 S2: would have felt the same way. And so there's a 137 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:33,220 S2: combination of factors at work here. There's the sensibility of 138 00:08:33,340 --> 00:08:36,620 S2: older and then younger people in the community who have 139 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:39,700 S2: been brought up with that feeling of always being vigilant 140 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:44,780 S2: and looking for signs that something terrible could happen. And 141 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:49,020 S2: there's been the, uh, the gradual build up even before 142 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:52,860 S2: the events of October 7th and the Hamas attacks in Israel, 143 00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:59,540 S2: which I guess showed signs that there was rising anti-Semitic, uh, 144 00:08:59,620 --> 00:09:04,480 S2: views and activities by groups. The Covid lockdown and the 145 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,840 S2: anti-government lockdown movement also gave a lot of support to 146 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,520 S2: some of these groups and feelings. And I guess over 147 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,040 S2: the last couple of years, many people in the community 148 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,920 S2: have looked at what's been happening with the rise of 149 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:26,240 S2: anti-Semitic attacks and outbursts and even violence, with a rising 150 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:31,160 S2: feeling of dread and feeling that something worse could happen. Now, 151 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,400 S2: that doesn't mean anything is inevitable. A lot of people 152 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,600 S2: have said that, but tragically, those feelings have been borne out. 153 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:52,160 S1: We'll be right back. And you mentioned just before that 154 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,040 S1: you feel like this sort of ethos of, I guess, 155 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,040 S1: Holocaust survivor, you know, the legacy of that. You could 156 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,200 S1: see that in the responses of people within the Jewish 157 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,360 S1: community to the Sunday attack. Are there any particular responses 158 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,140 S1: that you're thinking about in that regard? 159 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:10,660 S2: Well, there's the sense that the community feels that it 160 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:14,060 S2: hasn't been listened to sufficiently by the government, but the 161 00:10:14,059 --> 00:10:18,540 S2: federal government, because they have been at all levels, both 162 00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:23,860 S2: at a communal but also leadership level, pointing out the 163 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:30,860 S2: threats that they have seen through activity, incidents, violence and intimidation, 164 00:10:31,540 --> 00:10:35,500 S2: that they've been pointing this out. Uh, and they feel 165 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,699 S2: that the government hasn't been doing enough to support them 166 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:42,219 S2: or protect them. It does raise a question about what 167 00:10:42,220 --> 00:10:44,620 S2: the limits are of what a government can actually do 168 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:49,140 S2: to prevent attacks like the one we've seen on Sunday, 169 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:53,940 S2: because governments create policies and climates and environments in which 170 00:10:53,940 --> 00:10:58,540 S2: the whole society operates to try and deter and minimise 171 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:03,700 S2: social violence and anti-Semitic and other racist behaviour. However, I 172 00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:06,750 S2: think there's a very strong sentiment in the community that 173 00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:09,270 S2: the government could have done more. My own view is 174 00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:12,790 S2: that the government has acted responsibly. It could have done more, 175 00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:16,030 S2: but I thought that certainly in the last two and 176 00:11:16,030 --> 00:11:20,870 S2: a bit years it has reacted responsibly. Perhaps a a 177 00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:25,950 S2: faster and more emphatic response to the encampments on the universities, 178 00:11:26,070 --> 00:11:30,469 S2: which became such a fault line for Jewish students during 179 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:32,950 S2: the height of the encampment movement in the early part 180 00:11:32,950 --> 00:11:35,710 S2: of last year. Would that have made a difference to 181 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:39,150 S2: what happened on Sunday? I don't think so. But certainly 182 00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:42,150 S2: from the Jewish community's point of view, there was a 183 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:46,270 S2: strong feeling that the government and also university leadership in 184 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:50,470 S2: certainly some universities could have been more responsive and more 185 00:11:50,590 --> 00:11:52,550 S2: emphatic when they responded. 186 00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:55,350 S1: And there was something that you recently said again in 187 00:11:55,390 --> 00:11:57,670 S1: that interview with The New Yorker that you've just given 188 00:11:57,670 --> 00:12:01,070 S1: to that magazine, which has covered this horrific attack on Sunday. Obviously, 189 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:03,189 S1: it's made global headlines. I think it's safe to say 190 00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:07,650 S1: it's shocked Countless people around the world. And you said 191 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:09,770 S1: it's something you referred to before. You said personally, growing 192 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:12,130 S1: up in Australia, this feeling that we've always got to 193 00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:15,530 S1: be very vigilant about anti-Semitism, that this was perhaps being 194 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:18,809 S1: overstated and a bit of crying wolf. But since October 7th, 195 00:12:18,809 --> 00:12:21,730 S1: you said you felt that you were mistaken and proven wrong. 196 00:12:21,730 --> 00:12:24,650 S1: And that hit me, frankly, right in the heart, because 197 00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:27,010 S1: that's been me for most of my life. And now 198 00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:30,650 S1: I'm sort of thinking, since the Sunday attack, well, maybe 199 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:34,370 S1: my antenna hasn't been sufficiently, you know, attuned, I guess, 200 00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:37,090 S1: to warning signs. So do you think people are going 201 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:39,170 S1: to be just far more panicked? 202 00:12:40,370 --> 00:12:43,770 S2: I think this is going to change everything in ways I, 203 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:49,010 S2: I can't yet predict. But, uh, this has borne out 204 00:12:49,010 --> 00:12:52,610 S2: the the worst fears and anxieties of, uh, everybody in 205 00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:56,890 S2: the community, whether left, centre or right. It's just a 206 00:12:57,050 --> 00:13:01,850 S2: naked attack of pure evil, really. And this will make 207 00:13:01,850 --> 00:13:07,110 S2: all Jews, and I hope other Australians feel not just vigilant, 208 00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:11,709 S2: but they will feel anxiety about how they then go 209 00:13:11,710 --> 00:13:14,670 S2: about their life, the way they congregate, the things they do, 210 00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:18,390 S2: the demands they will make of government for protection, and 211 00:13:18,429 --> 00:13:21,949 S2: whether it will. That protection will take away the sense 212 00:13:21,950 --> 00:13:24,790 S2: of freedom that we've enjoyed in Australia for so long, 213 00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:27,870 S2: because we will always be treading on eggshells about what 214 00:13:27,870 --> 00:13:31,870 S2: we say and how we gather and the things that 215 00:13:31,870 --> 00:13:34,470 S2: we want to do. I think that will certainly be 216 00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:38,349 S2: a very powerful legacy of what's happened on Sunday for 217 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:42,870 S2: quite some time. It saddens me to be talking about this, 218 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:46,990 S2: because I've had such a happy life in Australia as 219 00:13:46,990 --> 00:13:49,750 S2: a Jewish person and some of my friends and my family, 220 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:54,550 S2: and it is very hard for me to digest exactly 221 00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:58,870 S2: the enormity of what happened on Sunday. And people I know, 222 00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:02,630 S2: Jews and non-Jews who have been sending me messages from 223 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:06,929 S2: all around the world are Uh, dumbstruck, uh, that this 224 00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:10,370 S2: has happened here and particularly at Bondi Beach, which is 225 00:14:10,410 --> 00:14:15,210 S2: the spiritual home of Jewry in Sydney. I also had 226 00:14:15,250 --> 00:14:20,530 S2: a personal experience, uh, about Sunday, which, uh, has been 227 00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:24,610 S2: quite powerful for me. So my son is a journalist 228 00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:27,050 S2: at the Sydney Morning Herald. And when I heard the 229 00:14:27,090 --> 00:14:30,770 S2: first news of the shootings, I rang him to see 230 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:33,690 S2: if he knew anything that I didn't know yet. And 231 00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:37,210 S2: then it dawned on me that because he has frequented 232 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:39,170 S2: Bondi Beach quite a lot, he might be down there swimming. 233 00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:42,250 S2: And so I rang him to just get reassurance, and 234 00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:44,530 S2: he didn't answer the phone. And I rang twice and 235 00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:47,170 S2: three times and he didn't answer. And so it was 236 00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:49,450 S2: about perhaps 10 or 15 minutes that I hadn't heard 237 00:14:49,450 --> 00:14:54,290 S2: from him. And I had this absolutely sickening feeling of dread, uh, 238 00:14:54,330 --> 00:14:56,730 S2: which is one that I know that parents all around 239 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:59,610 S2: the world, in countries where violence is much more part 240 00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:03,330 S2: of their social fabric, have come to feel that feeling. 241 00:15:03,330 --> 00:15:07,340 S2: But I never expected to feel it here in my home. And, um, 242 00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:11,940 S2: that has really rocked me and and our family. We're 243 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:15,660 S2: very lucky he escaped to safety. He was swimming in 244 00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:19,940 S2: the water at the time, but he got away. Um, but, uh, 245 00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,260 S2: we count our lucky stars for that. 246 00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:27,340 S1: Yeah. Michael, it's it's. I have to take a moment because, uh, 247 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:31,220 S1: I knew your son had been there, and, um, one 248 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:33,100 S1: of my children was planning on going, and he was 249 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:35,820 S1: the one that called me to tell me that he'd 250 00:15:35,820 --> 00:15:37,740 S1: heard this news. It was the first I'd heard it, 251 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:41,100 S1: and therefore he didn't go. And I had friends. I'm 252 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:43,100 S1: sure you also had friends who were there. I had 253 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:47,300 S1: friends who were there. And. Yeah, it's it's certainly it's 254 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:49,340 S1: rocked me. It's rocked everyone I know actually, who's in 255 00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:51,500 S1: the Jewish community and people that aren't I mean, and 256 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:53,780 S1: that's the reality, isn't it? I mean, obviously it's a 257 00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:57,260 S1: tragedy no matter who dies. And of course, non-Jews have died, obviously, 258 00:15:57,260 --> 00:16:01,420 S1: in that attack as well. And yeah, it feels like 259 00:16:01,420 --> 00:16:04,020 S1: maybe it's it's ripped something away, you know, I guess 260 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:07,320 S1: a security perhaps that I don't know that perhaps non-Jews 261 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,480 S1: used to feel here. Maybe I don't know. 262 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:10,120 S2: Well. 263 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,240 S1: I think or many non-Jews I should say. Obviously there 264 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,840 S1: are other Australians who are members of communities who are 265 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:16,600 S1: also persecuted. 266 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,000 S2: Yeah, I think there are all Australians will be rocked 267 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,960 S2: by this. Something like this happening at Australia's best known 268 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,440 S2: beach on a beautiful summer's afternoon, where people go all 269 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,640 S2: year round. It has heartened me that I've had so 270 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,440 S2: much support from people I know from not just within 271 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,920 S2: the Jewish community, but from all parts of Australia and 272 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:44,880 S2: and certainly non-Jewish. And I think the Jewish community will 273 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,800 S2: be looking for tangible evidence of support and love from 274 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,600 S2: the broader community, uh, in the weeks and months ahead 275 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,680 S2: for visible signs of support at rallies, uh, and at 276 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,600 S2: meetings and, and at all different levels of society, informal 277 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,820 S2: and formal, to show that, um, they are us and 278 00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:08,419 S2: we are them. 279 00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:11,420 S1: And, Michael, I just wanted to ask you. I know 280 00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:14,980 S1: you are a noted writer on Australian Jewry and on 281 00:17:14,980 --> 00:17:18,900 S1: various topics, including incredible history of your own family. Uh, 282 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:22,460 S1: you had a relative who was a noted antiquarian bookseller 283 00:17:22,619 --> 00:17:25,340 S1: who sold fragments of the Gutenberg Bible, and it's one 284 00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:28,540 S1: of the biggest controversies, I think, in literary history. So 285 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:33,500 S1: you're no stranger to writing and speaking about, uh, Jewish topics, 286 00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:36,060 S1: but is it difficult at all to speak about this? 287 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:40,940 S2: Well, uh, it has been a difficult subject, certainly when 288 00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:43,460 S2: I was much younger, uh, as I said, from my 289 00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:46,379 S2: father's own experiences and that of my family, uh, I 290 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:49,780 S2: think I always had a little voice of my father 291 00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:52,660 S2: and his friends in my ear every time I was 292 00:17:52,660 --> 00:17:57,380 S2: asked to speak about Jewish identity, about anti-Semitism and about Israel. 293 00:17:57,780 --> 00:18:01,420 S2: And the voice has never really left me. But as 294 00:18:01,420 --> 00:18:04,140 S2: I've done it more and more, the sensitivity of speaking 295 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:08,520 S2: about it has softened a bit, but it's still not 296 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,800 S2: an easy thing to talk about. And and many Jews 297 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:18,000 S2: in the community feel almost frozen about talking about it 298 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,040 S2: to people outside the community. And I think this stems 299 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:27,280 S2: in large part from the Holocaust survivor background of the 300 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,159 S2: community that we spoke about earlier. 301 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,320 S1: And tell me what underpins that. Is it fear? Is 302 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,159 S1: it the sort of like, don't don't make yourself a 303 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,239 S1: spectacle like you could be a target? Is that what 304 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,520 S1: it is or is it something else? 305 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,520 S2: Uh, I think it goes back to this feeling that 306 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,800 S2: if you speak outside, you can make yourself a target. 307 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:52,240 S2: You may add dirty washing and that anything that puts 308 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,520 S2: you up over the horizon on the radar then makes 309 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,560 S2: you vulnerable. And historically, Jews have always felt like targets. 310 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,280 S2: And so that that feeling plays into a very ancient 311 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,610 S2: sentiment that you don't want to do anything that attracts 312 00:19:09,609 --> 00:19:13,770 S2: trouble or attracts attention, and better to turn inwards and 313 00:19:13,770 --> 00:19:17,370 S2: deal with it amongst yourselves. Uh, and so that has 314 00:19:17,570 --> 00:19:21,810 S2: led to very different views about, uh, how Jews want 315 00:19:21,810 --> 00:19:26,210 S2: to engage with broader society. And I think we've seen 316 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:31,370 S2: that played out in, um, the very difficult public discourse 317 00:19:31,369 --> 00:19:35,369 S2: and debate that occurred after October 7th, where most people 318 00:19:35,369 --> 00:19:37,689 S2: have felt like they're on eggshells whenever they even mention 319 00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:40,170 S2: the subject of anti-Semitism in Israel. 320 00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:45,850 S1: Yeah. Well, Michael, it's horrible to reacquaint myself with you 321 00:19:45,850 --> 00:19:48,290 S1: during a time like this, but thank God your son 322 00:19:48,290 --> 00:19:50,330 S1: and the rest of your family and you are safe. 323 00:19:50,650 --> 00:19:52,530 S1: And thank you so much for your time. 324 00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:55,130 S2: Uh, I won't say it's been a pleasure, but it's 325 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:57,129 S2: been good to speak to you again, Samantha. Thank you. 326 00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:22,670 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 327 00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:26,750 S1: and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our 328 00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:30,190 S1: head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is 329 00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:32,790 S1: a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. 330 00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:35,830 S1: If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, 331 00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:39,109 S1: subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to 332 00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:45,430 S1: support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe 333 00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:49,430 S1: and sign up for our newsletter to receive a comprehensive 334 00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:53,150 S1: summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights 335 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:57,429 S1: in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. 336 00:20:57,950 --> 00:21:02,270 S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks 337 00:21:02,270 --> 00:21:03,110 S1: for listening.