WEBVTT - What Welcome to Country really means 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:04.600 From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.760 This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:17.320 April 29th. For decades, modern day welcome to country ceremonies 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:21.200 have been an established ritual in Australia, performed by indigenous 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:26.599 elders far and wide. Then came Anzac Day, when people 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.639 were stunned to see Bunurong elder, Mark Brown, booed and 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:35.120 jeered at while performing the ceremony in Melbourne. That night, 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.000 a planned Welcome to Country ceremony was ditched at a 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:44.240 high profile sporting event. Today, federal politics reporter Natassia Chrysanthos 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.920 on how and why the ritual has become weaponised. And 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.840 Kamilaroi elder uncle Lyn Waters on what all Australians should 0:00:52.840 --> 0:01:02.310 be asking themselves now. So, Tess, first off, I just 0:01:02.310 --> 0:01:04.310 have to say thank you so much for joining us 0:01:04.350 --> 0:01:07.950 on the podcast, because you're joining us from Anthony Albanese's 0:01:07.950 --> 0:01:11.030 bus on the campaign trail. So if for listeners, if 0:01:11.030 --> 0:01:13.910 you hear any background noise, that's because you're getting things 0:01:13.910 --> 0:01:15.910 right from the trail. But first off, I guess what 0:01:15.910 --> 0:01:18.630 happened on Anzac Day last Friday morning. 0:01:18.750 --> 0:01:22.589 So Anzac Day, um, ceremonies these days, the big ones 0:01:22.590 --> 0:01:25.270 you'll find often start with a Welcome to country, which 0:01:25.310 --> 0:01:29.910 is a ceremony by an indigenous person, typically an elder 0:01:29.910 --> 0:01:35.830 from a particular ancestral land, um, you know, dating back centuries. 0:01:35.950 --> 0:01:41.149 Good morning. I am uncle Mark Brown, and I'm an 0:01:41.150 --> 0:01:45.229 elder and senior cultural heritage officer of the Bunurong people. 0:01:45.350 --> 0:01:51.030 They'll give a short speech that welcomes the audience to 0:01:51.310 --> 0:01:53.390 that ancestral land. 0:01:53.670 --> 0:01:57.370 I'm a gunditjmara man on my mother's side. And I'm 0:01:57.370 --> 0:01:59.170 a man of my father's side. 0:01:59.450 --> 0:02:01.809 So we saw that happen in Melbourne and in Perth. 0:02:01.810 --> 0:02:05.690 And then these welcomes in the morning were interrupted by, 0:02:05.930 --> 0:02:09.609 in Melbourne, several hecklers, one of whom was later confirmed 0:02:09.610 --> 0:02:11.329 to be a known neo-Nazi. 0:02:11.370 --> 0:02:15.370 I'm here to welcome everybody to my father's country. Beautiful 0:02:15.410 --> 0:02:21.450 boomerang country. But before we do that, we pay our 0:02:21.450 --> 0:02:27.889 acknowledgments and we pay our respects. We pay our respects 0:02:27.889 --> 0:02:29.530 to all of my ancestors. 0:02:29.930 --> 0:02:31.970 Who yelled out a range of things, including, you know, 0:02:32.010 --> 0:02:34.290 we don't need to be welcomed. And we're escorted out. 0:02:34.290 --> 0:02:36.929 And then a similar thing happened at a smaller scale 0:02:36.930 --> 0:02:38.690 in Perth a few hours later as well. 0:02:38.810 --> 0:02:41.690 And so tell us what was happening, though, because these hecklers, 0:02:41.690 --> 0:02:44.610 they weren't just fringe actors, right. What was going on? 0:02:44.810 --> 0:02:48.370 Yeah. So it was a coordinated in Melbourne. It was 0:02:48.450 --> 0:02:54.170 a kind of coordinated event that was led by Jacob Hassan, who's, 0:02:54.210 --> 0:02:57.960 you know, a Annoying kind of far right extremists, white supremacists. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.960 And the first Victorian convicted of performing a Nazi salute 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:06.960 heckled the governor and then the RSL itself at any 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.280 mention of being welcomed to country. 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.120 They want to humiliate us over and over again. That's 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:13.799 what they do. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:19.200 Tapping into this real cultural war that has emerged around 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.440 Welcome to Country. Um, and you see it play out 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.200 a lot in the conservative media from time to time. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.200 So you'll see it, you know, dominate discussion on Sky news. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.800 You see it raised from time to time by conservative 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:36.160 or right wing senators in the Australian Parliament raising this 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.360 criticism or complaint. I suppose that we don't need to 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.320 be welcomed to our own country and people on on 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.280 that side of politics or those particular political beliefs, er 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:51.200 a range of complaints, one being that being that they're overdone, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.740 being that they're Tokenistic, etc.. Um. And then I think 0:03:55.740 --> 0:04:00.100 what we saw on Friday was this debate being hijacked 0:04:00.100 --> 0:04:02.020 by the far right. And that is a that is 0:04:02.020 --> 0:04:06.580 a common tactic in those circles, particularly in Australia, is to, um, 0:04:07.140 --> 0:04:10.660 kind of latch on to these culture war debates and 0:04:10.660 --> 0:04:16.180 position themselves as the anti-woke, if you will. Um, but 0:04:16.180 --> 0:04:19.700 but what it really is, is a kind of outward 0:04:19.700 --> 0:04:23.779 expression of what is a much more right wing ideology. 0:04:23.779 --> 0:04:27.380 And in some cases, like we say, they're not neo-Nazis. 0:04:27.620 --> 0:04:29.419 And we have to mention that, you know, what happened 0:04:29.460 --> 0:04:32.299 on Anzac Day, it wasn't actually confined to that one event, 0:04:32.300 --> 0:04:35.659 because we've also seen reports about NRL team, the Melbourne 0:04:35.660 --> 0:04:38.219 Storm cancelling a Welcome to Country at the very last 0:04:38.220 --> 0:04:40.900 minute at its Anzac Day match. Right. 0:04:40.940 --> 0:04:43.900 Yeah. Melbourne Storm um, has kind of been toying with 0:04:43.900 --> 0:04:46.900 what it thinks is the appropriate way to do. Welcome 0:04:46.900 --> 0:04:49.979 to country ceremonies. There's been that conversation happening within the 0:04:49.980 --> 0:04:52.890 Melbourne Storm for the last couple of months. Um, and 0:04:52.890 --> 0:04:55.370 so then what you saw on Anzac Day, all of 0:04:55.370 --> 0:04:57.650 this was happening. It was in the news. And then, um, 0:04:57.650 --> 0:05:00.409 I think there was some confusion around the precise order 0:05:00.410 --> 0:05:02.969 of events, but the outcome was that a planned welcome 0:05:02.970 --> 0:05:05.370 to country at that game that evening did not go ahead. 0:05:05.650 --> 0:05:08.170 And Taz, you also mentioned just before you know that 0:05:08.170 --> 0:05:10.530 we are hearing this refrain. We don't need to be 0:05:10.529 --> 0:05:13.130 welcomed to our own country. We're hearing this, you know, 0:05:13.170 --> 0:05:17.890 in debates in mainstream politics, on Sky news and whatnot, 0:05:18.130 --> 0:05:20.530 it has become more common. So can you walk us through, 0:05:20.570 --> 0:05:22.330 I guess, a bit more what the main point of 0:05:22.330 --> 0:05:23.690 contention there is? 0:05:24.690 --> 0:05:29.330 Yeah. So I think the context really because welcome to 0:05:29.370 --> 0:05:31.770 country and I think this is probably a good point 0:05:31.890 --> 0:05:36.330 to um, clarify. Welcome to Country is a ceremony that 0:05:36.330 --> 0:05:38.890 is performed, like I said, by an indigenous person on 0:05:38.930 --> 0:05:44.250 their tribal land that welcomes people to that particular land. 0:05:44.250 --> 0:05:48.410 It started happening in the 70s in Australia in kind 0:05:48.410 --> 0:05:52.950 of contemporary events, but it taps into this ancient custom 0:05:52.950 --> 0:05:57.750 that existed Pre-colonization and Indigenous Australia. This is different to 0:05:57.950 --> 0:06:00.790 what is also increasingly common practice, which is an acknowledgement 0:06:00.790 --> 0:06:04.830 of country. Now, an acknowledgement of country is typically given 0:06:04.830 --> 0:06:07.830 by a non-Indigenous person. Um, and this is kind of 0:06:07.870 --> 0:06:11.470 what you see more at the beginning of meetings or events, 0:06:11.470 --> 0:06:13.870 sometimes in the workplace. So there are two different things 0:06:13.870 --> 0:06:18.989 that have become conflated in this debate. People say, you know, 0:06:19.029 --> 0:06:20.909 the welcomes are overdone. They don't need to be done 0:06:20.910 --> 0:06:23.830 before every meeting at work. You're probably not talking about 0:06:23.830 --> 0:06:27.150 a welcome in that context. You're talking about an acknowledgement. Um, 0:06:27.150 --> 0:06:31.029 so they are different practices performed with different intentions. 0:06:31.070 --> 0:06:33.669 And tell us, though, what critics of Welcome to Country 0:06:33.670 --> 0:06:35.830 are saying, because obviously we've got a lot of prominent 0:06:35.830 --> 0:06:39.589 people speaking out against them, probably most notably Opposition Leader 0:06:39.589 --> 0:06:43.110 Peter Dutton, who, you know, spoke about it, uh, during 0:06:43.110 --> 0:06:44.950 the leader's debate just on Sunday night. 0:06:45.230 --> 0:06:48.740 For the start of every meeting at work or the 0:06:48.740 --> 0:06:50.980 start of a football game. I think a lot of 0:06:50.980 --> 0:06:54.180 Australians think it's overdone, and it cheapens the significance of 0:06:54.339 --> 0:06:56.860 what it was meant to do. It's divide. It divides 0:06:56.860 --> 0:06:59.420 the country. Not dissimilar to what the Prime Minister did 0:06:59.420 --> 0:07:00.539 with I've got to go, got to go to the 0:07:00.540 --> 0:07:01.060 Prime Minister. 0:07:01.100 --> 0:07:03.300 Yeah. So I think what you have in that rhetoric, 0:07:03.339 --> 0:07:06.380 including from Dutton, was that conflation of those two things. 0:07:06.420 --> 0:07:09.380 So he said, you know, welcome to countries. They're overdone. 0:07:09.660 --> 0:07:11.940 You know, he says, I see the point to hold them, 0:07:11.940 --> 0:07:14.420 for example, at the opening of Parliament every year, but 0:07:14.420 --> 0:07:16.260 at the beginning of every meeting, at the beginning of 0:07:16.260 --> 0:07:19.940 every sports game. They're overdone and they lose meaning. They 0:07:19.940 --> 0:07:24.100 become rote. Um, and he also called them divisive. So what? 0:07:24.100 --> 0:07:26.900 We think it's a range of different arguments there, because 0:07:26.980 --> 0:07:30.900 on the one hand, you know, and Indigenous Australians themselves 0:07:30.900 --> 0:07:33.940 would make an argument sometimes that, yes, if an acknowledgment 0:07:33.940 --> 0:07:35.940 of country is performed all the time at the beginning 0:07:35.940 --> 0:07:37.700 of everything and there's not a lot of meaning behind it, 0:07:37.740 --> 0:07:42.500 it can become rote. That is, though, different to somebody 0:07:42.540 --> 0:07:45.480 at a major event, you know, standing up there and 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.360 trying to welcome people to their ancestral lands and convey 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.360 some of that history that we were talking about before. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.600 I think it is all looped into this kind of 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:58.239 zeitgeist anti-woke backlash that we've seen really accelerate with the 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.640 re-election of Donald Trump and since The Voice referendum as well. 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.320 And so what is going to happen if the coalition 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.040 does form government? Like, do they have a solid plan 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.320 to ban or restrict welcome to country ceremonies? 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.400 So insofar as the federal government is concerned, are federal 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:20.040 government departments at different events pay for welcome to country ceremonies? 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:21.720 You know, you see it a lot in the Department 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.680 of Foreign Affairs and Trade, for example, where there are 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.280 visiting dignitaries and they'll put on and pay for a 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.000 welcome to country and smoking ceremony as part of that 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:34.000 diplomatic connection, and also showing visitors what is a kind 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.360 of a central part of Australian culture. So you could 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.120 have and this is what the coalition federal coalition has said. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.760 You could have them say, instruct government departments, no, we 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.030 don't want to spend money on that anymore. Right. And 0:08:45.030 --> 0:08:47.949 then you might have federal government departments wind back how 0:08:47.950 --> 0:08:51.590 they're doing them. That costs. Under FOI from the coalition. 0:08:51.590 --> 0:08:55.069 It was revealed about half $1 million over two years. 0:08:55.070 --> 0:08:57.790 So that is one lever that a federal government could pull. 0:09:00.830 --> 0:09:04.550 As for sports games and things like that, you could 0:09:04.550 --> 0:09:08.510 have a government exert pressure on major codes, um, to 0:09:08.670 --> 0:09:11.710 try and influence behaviour, but it's not a legal issue, 0:09:11.990 --> 0:09:15.310 you know? Then we come to people who give acknowledgements 0:09:15.309 --> 0:09:17.390 of countries in their day to day practice when they're 0:09:17.390 --> 0:09:19.910 giving a speech at a meeting. The federal government really 0:09:19.910 --> 0:09:21.910 can't do anything about that at all. You know, they're 0:09:21.910 --> 0:09:26.750 performed for free. Discretionally. It's it's more a conversation than 0:09:26.750 --> 0:09:27.670 anything else. 0:09:29.910 --> 0:09:32.190 Taz, thank you so much for joining us on the 0:09:32.190 --> 0:09:33.390 podcast this morning. 0:09:33.390 --> 0:09:34.710 Thank you for having me. 0:09:38.510 --> 0:09:41.770 After the break, Uncle Len Waters on what welcome to 0:09:41.809 --> 0:09:47.730 country ceremonies really mean. Uncle Len Waters, thank you so 0:09:47.730 --> 0:09:50.130 much for joining us on the podcast. Can you just 0:09:50.130 --> 0:09:53.130 begin by telling us first who you are and what 0:09:53.130 --> 0:09:56.450 your role is in performing? Welcome to country ceremonies. 0:09:56.770 --> 0:09:59.970 Yeah, well, my name Sam Len Waters. I'm a cameraman and, um, 0:10:00.010 --> 0:10:04.010 originate from our mission station. And, yeah, as an elder, 0:10:04.010 --> 0:10:07.090 you get invited to, um, do all sorts of work 0:10:07.090 --> 0:10:11.530 on the country, whether it be government, sort of, um, organizations, um, 0:10:11.570 --> 0:10:15.490 or whether it be community organizations, basically whatever people, um, 0:10:15.650 --> 0:10:17.970 really require, you know, it could be a funeral or 0:10:17.970 --> 0:10:21.010 it could even be, um, you know, a special message 0:10:21.010 --> 0:10:23.170 like the one just went, um, it was an Anzac 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:23.770 Day mass. 0:10:24.010 --> 0:10:25.970 And can you just explain to us what a welcome 0:10:25.970 --> 0:10:26.930 to country is? 0:10:27.170 --> 0:10:30.330 Well, the welcome to country is basically something that's not new. 0:10:30.370 --> 0:10:34.330 It's been going on for, um, you know, centuries. And, um, 0:10:34.809 --> 0:10:38.450 basically when other tribes used to trek a long way, um, 0:10:38.730 --> 0:10:42.280 you know, by foot. Um, could even be hundreds of miles. And, um, 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.360 they would arrive at the tribal lands of the people 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.640 that invited them. And, um, basically, once they got there, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.640 they would gather and, um, wait to be welcomed onto 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.520 their tribal lands. And, um, yeah, the main emphasis of it, 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.120 I suppose, is to renew old relationships and, um, to 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:04.800 make new relationships, but, um, importantly, to, um, mend relationships 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.960 that might have conflict because, um, if there was conflict there, 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:12.080 you weren't, um, invited on to country, weren't welcomed on country. 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.880 That's the way it sort of goes back for, um, millennia, 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:20.040 I suppose. But, um, um, it's only recently new, I suppose, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.240 in Australia because, um, it's only been the last period 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.720 of time that people have been interested in Aboriginal culture 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.160 and customs and that sort of stuff. So it's one 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.679 thing that, um, over the ages, I suppose we weren't 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.480 allowed to practice. Um, you know, a lot of our 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:38.620 customs and, uh, ceremonial stuff. Um, yeah. And, um, even language. 0:11:38.620 --> 0:11:44.380 So it's a case of, um, it means. Well, when, um, 0:11:44.860 --> 0:11:48.780 you know, non-Aboriginal people are inviting you along to, um, um, 0:11:49.580 --> 0:11:52.020 you know, to do, uh, a work on a country 0:11:52.020 --> 0:11:55.060 to sort of signify that their event is, um, being 0:11:55.059 --> 0:11:58.179 held on, um, you know, traditional lands of one tribe 0:11:58.179 --> 0:11:58.740 or another. 0:11:59.100 --> 0:12:01.740 And what actually went through your mind when you heard 0:12:01.740 --> 0:12:05.380 about uncle Mark Brown being booed during his welcome on 0:12:05.380 --> 0:12:06.060 Anzac Day? 0:12:06.420 --> 0:12:10.500 I thought, um, yeah, it was very sort of, um, odd. 0:12:10.540 --> 0:12:12.260 I mean, you know, sort of it's a bit like 0:12:12.260 --> 0:12:16.620 somebody getting up and, um, heckling, um, somebody during the 0:12:16.620 --> 0:12:19.220 Lord's Prayer or, you know, even sort of, um, the 0:12:19.260 --> 0:12:22.940 national anthem or, um, or other things that people hold 0:12:22.940 --> 0:12:26.819 dear to themselves. People more and more are becoming, uh, 0:12:27.500 --> 0:12:31.340 more disrespectful of, um, of people in general, you know, 0:12:31.380 --> 0:12:34.620 and we're just sort of people that, um, yeah, have 0:12:34.660 --> 0:12:36.610 lost blocks. Compression. In a lot of ways. 0:12:36.650 --> 0:12:38.210 It does make me want to ask you, I guess, 0:12:38.210 --> 0:12:41.050 what the impact of a debate like this and, you know, 0:12:41.090 --> 0:12:43.569 all of this rhetoric questioning the existence of a welcome 0:12:43.570 --> 0:12:45.929 to country, what sort of impact does it have on 0:12:45.929 --> 0:12:47.570 indigenous people like yourself? 0:12:48.530 --> 0:12:51.090 Yeah. No, I just sort of think, you know, for myself, 0:12:51.130 --> 0:12:54.850 with the case of, um, you know, um, we've come 0:12:54.890 --> 0:12:58.290 so far, you know, we've lost so much and, um, 0:12:58.770 --> 0:13:02.929 you know, to, um, you know, to deny, you know, 0:13:02.970 --> 0:13:07.130 Australian people on these toilet practices, you know, um, I 0:13:07.130 --> 0:13:10.490 just think it takes us backwards. And it was over 0:13:10.490 --> 0:13:14.090 the weekend. I've seen many Dawn services or, um, sporting 0:13:14.090 --> 0:13:17.410 matches and that sort of stuff where people are saying 0:13:17.410 --> 0:13:21.490 the New Zealand anthem. Yeah. And, um, basically whether they 0:13:21.530 --> 0:13:24.370 be indigenous to New Zealand or not, there is, um, 0:13:24.730 --> 0:13:29.250 a certain section of that that is um, done in, um, uh, 0:13:29.250 --> 0:13:32.330 in their language. And I think, you know, well, how 0:13:32.330 --> 0:13:36.630 cool is that? You know, it's something to, um, really behold. 0:13:36.910 --> 0:13:39.070 If we're to grow as a nation, you know, we've 0:13:39.270 --> 0:13:42.110 got to sort of grow together and have these respectful 0:13:42.110 --> 0:13:44.510 things put into play. And we start pulling these things 0:13:44.510 --> 0:13:48.150 down now and taking us backwards. What does that say 0:13:48.150 --> 0:13:52.150 about us as a, as a country? You know, um, 0:13:52.190 --> 0:13:54.110 we've got a whole strong in a lot of things. And, 0:13:54.150 --> 0:13:58.030 you know, by trying to bury or, um, disregard, um, 0:13:58.070 --> 0:14:01.750 Aboriginal issues. Well, you know, we're not growing, you know, 0:14:01.790 --> 0:14:06.630 we're not, um, we're not taking any steps forward. 0:14:07.350 --> 0:14:09.069 And I guess just to wrap up, I mean, what 0:14:09.070 --> 0:14:12.070 would you like white Australians to perhaps remember when they're 0:14:12.070 --> 0:14:14.030 thinking about and they're debating this issue? 0:14:15.429 --> 0:14:20.270 Well, I think two is the plight of Aboriginal, um, 0:14:20.630 --> 0:14:24.910 history itself. You know, it's not a, a pretty history 0:14:24.910 --> 0:14:27.670 and that sort of stuff. But, um, you know, and 0:14:27.710 --> 0:14:29.590 as much as we want to say, well, yeah, let's 0:14:29.590 --> 0:14:33.300 forget about the past, you Yeah, but you know, we've 0:14:33.340 --> 0:14:36.100 got to hold the past there because, um, that's the 0:14:36.100 --> 0:14:38.500 way we learn and that's the way people carry on 0:14:38.540 --> 0:14:43.380 these legacies. It's one of these things where, um, you know, 0:14:44.380 --> 0:14:45.860 get rid of it. And then what do we get 0:14:45.860 --> 0:14:53.220 rid of? To get rid of. I welcome the country 0:14:53.260 --> 0:14:58.100 to me is sort of, um, I just don't I 0:14:58.100 --> 0:15:00.660 would sort of start to lose faith, I think, in, um, 0:15:01.380 --> 0:15:02.700 in humanity itself. 0:15:02.900 --> 0:15:03.380 Yeah. 0:15:03.780 --> 0:15:05.980 You know, because I just sort of think. Yeah. What 0:15:06.020 --> 0:15:10.580 type of people are we? Yeah. And, um, sure. You know, 0:15:10.620 --> 0:15:12.220 we've got to be better than what we have been 0:15:12.220 --> 0:15:14.540 in the past, but we're only going to get better 0:15:14.540 --> 0:15:16.580 in the future if we allow ourselves to be better 0:15:16.580 --> 0:15:19.700 in the future. And that means, you know, um, the 0:15:19.740 --> 0:15:21.740 notion of, um, inclusiveness. 0:15:22.420 --> 0:15:25.300 I really appreciate you taking the time to, to speak 0:15:25.300 --> 0:15:27.660 to me about this. So thank you so much, Uncle Len, 0:15:27.660 --> 0:15:28.420 for your time. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.720 Well, thank you and good morning. 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:41.960 And to you. Take care. Bye. Today's episode of The 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.600 Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.560 our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.480 soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.120 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.200 by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:05.680 or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.200 up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.920 of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.000 Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:17.360 Thanks for listening.