S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
S1: April 29th. For decades, modern day welcome to country ceremonies
S1: have been an established ritual in Australia, performed by indigenous
S1: elders far and wide. Then came Anzac Day, when people
S1: were stunned to see Bunurong elder, Mark Brown, booed and
S1: jeered at while performing the ceremony in Melbourne. That night,
S1: a planned Welcome to Country ceremony was ditched at a
S1: high profile sporting event. Today, federal politics reporter Natassia Chrysanthos
S1: on how and why the ritual has become weaponised. And
S1: Kamilaroi elder uncle Lyn Waters on what all Australians should
S1: be asking themselves now. So, Tess, first off, I just
S1: have to say thank you so much for joining us
S1: on the podcast, because you're joining us from Anthony Albanese's
S1: bus on the campaign trail. So if for listeners, if
S1: you hear any background noise, that's because you're getting things
S1: right from the trail. But first off, I guess what
S1: happened on Anzac Day last Friday morning.
S2: So Anzac Day, um, ceremonies these days, the big ones
S2: you'll find often start with a Welcome to country, which
S2: is a ceremony by an indigenous person, typically an elder
S2: from a particular ancestral land, um, you know, dating back centuries.
S3: Good morning. I am uncle Mark Brown, and I'm an
S3: elder and senior cultural heritage officer of the Bunurong people.
S2: They'll give a short speech that welcomes the audience to
S2: that ancestral land.
S3: I'm a gunditjmara man on my mother's side. And I'm
S3: a man of my father's side.
S2: So we saw that happen in Melbourne and in Perth.
S2: And then these welcomes in the morning were interrupted by,
S2: in Melbourne, several hecklers, one of whom was later confirmed
S2: to be a known neo-Nazi.
S3: I'm here to welcome everybody to my father's country. Beautiful
S3: boomerang country. But before we do that, we pay our
S3: acknowledgments and we pay our respects. We pay our respects
S3: to all of my ancestors.
S2: Who yelled out a range of things, including, you know,
S2: we don't need to be welcomed. And we're escorted out.
S2: And then a similar thing happened at a smaller scale
S2: in Perth a few hours later as well.
S1: And so tell us what was happening, though, because these hecklers,
S1: they weren't just fringe actors, right. What was going on?
S2: Yeah. So it was a coordinated in Melbourne. It was
S2: a kind of coordinated event that was led by Jacob Hassan, who's,
S2: you know, a Annoying kind of far right extremists, white supremacists.
S4: And the first Victorian convicted of performing a Nazi salute
S4: heckled the governor and then the RSL itself at any
S4: mention of being welcomed to country.
S5: They want to humiliate us over and over again. That's
S5: what they do.
S2: Tapping into this real cultural war that has emerged around
S2: Welcome to Country. Um, and you see it play out
S2: a lot in the conservative media from time to time.
S2: So you'll see it, you know, dominate discussion on Sky news.
S2: You see it raised from time to time by conservative
S2: or right wing senators in the Australian Parliament raising this
S2: criticism or complaint. I suppose that we don't need to
S2: be welcomed to our own country and people on on
S2: that side of politics or those particular political beliefs, er
S2: a range of complaints, one being that being that they're overdone,
S2: being that they're Tokenistic, etc.. Um. And then I think
S2: what we saw on Friday was this debate being hijacked
S2: by the far right. And that is a that is
S2: a common tactic in those circles, particularly in Australia, is to, um,
S2: kind of latch on to these culture war debates and
S2: position themselves as the anti-woke, if you will. Um, but
S2: but what it really is, is a kind of outward
S2: expression of what is a much more right wing ideology.
S2: And in some cases, like we say, they're not neo-Nazis.
S1: And we have to mention that, you know, what happened
S1: on Anzac Day, it wasn't actually confined to that one event,
S1: because we've also seen reports about NRL team, the Melbourne
S1: Storm cancelling a Welcome to Country at the very last
S1: minute at its Anzac Day match. Right.
S2: Yeah. Melbourne Storm um, has kind of been toying with
S2: what it thinks is the appropriate way to do. Welcome
S2: to country ceremonies. There's been that conversation happening within the
S2: Melbourne Storm for the last couple of months. Um, and
S2: so then what you saw on Anzac Day, all of
S2: this was happening. It was in the news. And then, um,
S2: I think there was some confusion around the precise order
S2: of events, but the outcome was that a planned welcome
S2: to country at that game that evening did not go ahead.
S1: And Taz, you also mentioned just before you know that
S1: we are hearing this refrain. We don't need to be
S1: welcomed to our own country. We're hearing this, you know,
S1: in debates in mainstream politics, on Sky news and whatnot,
S1: it has become more common. So can you walk us through,
S1: I guess, a bit more what the main point of
S1: contention there is?
S2: Yeah. So I think the context really because welcome to
S2: country and I think this is probably a good point
S2: to um, clarify. Welcome to Country is a ceremony that
S2: is performed, like I said, by an indigenous person on
S2: their tribal land that welcomes people to that particular land.
S2: It started happening in the 70s in Australia in kind
S2: of contemporary events, but it taps into this ancient custom
S2: that existed Pre-colonization and Indigenous Australia. This is different to
S2: what is also increasingly common practice, which is an acknowledgement
S2: of country. Now, an acknowledgement of country is typically given
S2: by a non-Indigenous person. Um, and this is kind of
S2: what you see more at the beginning of meetings or events,
S2: sometimes in the workplace. So there are two different things
S2: that have become conflated in this debate. People say, you know,
S2: the welcomes are overdone. They don't need to be done
S2: before every meeting at work. You're probably not talking about
S2: a welcome in that context. You're talking about an acknowledgement. Um,
S2: so they are different practices performed with different intentions.
S1: And tell us, though, what critics of Welcome to Country
S1: are saying, because obviously we've got a lot of prominent
S1: people speaking out against them, probably most notably Opposition Leader
S1: Peter Dutton, who, you know, spoke about it, uh, during
S1: the leader's debate just on Sunday night.
S6: For the start of every meeting at work or the
S6: start of a football game. I think a lot of
S6: Australians think it's overdone, and it cheapens the significance of
S6: what it was meant to do. It's divide. It divides
S6: the country. Not dissimilar to what the Prime Minister did
S6: with I've got to go, got to go to the
S6: Prime Minister.
S2: Yeah. So I think what you have in that rhetoric,
S2: including from Dutton, was that conflation of those two things.
S2: So he said, you know, welcome to countries. They're overdone.
S2: You know, he says, I see the point to hold them,
S2: for example, at the opening of Parliament every year, but
S2: at the beginning of every meeting, at the beginning of
S2: every sports game. They're overdone and they lose meaning. They
S2: become rote. Um, and he also called them divisive. So what?
S2: We think it's a range of different arguments there, because
S2: on the one hand, you know, and Indigenous Australians themselves
S2: would make an argument sometimes that, yes, if an acknowledgment
S2: of country is performed all the time at the beginning
S2: of everything and there's not a lot of meaning behind it,
S2: it can become rote. That is, though, different to somebody
S2: at a major event, you know, standing up there and
S2: trying to welcome people to their ancestral lands and convey
S2: some of that history that we were talking about before.
S2: I think it is all looped into this kind of
S2: zeitgeist anti-woke backlash that we've seen really accelerate with the
S2: re-election of Donald Trump and since The Voice referendum as well.
S1: And so what is going to happen if the coalition
S1: does form government? Like, do they have a solid plan
S1: to ban or restrict welcome to country ceremonies?
S2: So insofar as the federal government is concerned, are federal
S2: government departments at different events pay for welcome to country ceremonies?
S2: You know, you see it a lot in the Department
S2: of Foreign Affairs and Trade, for example, where there are
S2: visiting dignitaries and they'll put on and pay for a
S2: welcome to country and smoking ceremony as part of that
S2: diplomatic connection, and also showing visitors what is a kind
S2: of a central part of Australian culture. So you could
S2: have and this is what the coalition federal coalition has said.
S2: You could have them say, instruct government departments, no, we
S2: don't want to spend money on that anymore. Right. And
S2: then you might have federal government departments wind back how
S2: they're doing them. That costs. Under FOI from the coalition.
S2: It was revealed about half $1 million over two years.
S2: So that is one lever that a federal government could pull.
S2: As for sports games and things like that, you could
S2: have a government exert pressure on major codes, um, to
S2: try and influence behaviour, but it's not a legal issue,
S2: you know? Then we come to people who give acknowledgements
S2: of countries in their day to day practice when they're
S2: giving a speech at a meeting. The federal government really
S2: can't do anything about that at all. You know, they're
S2: performed for free. Discretionally. It's it's more a conversation than
S2: anything else.
S1: Taz, thank you so much for joining us on the
S1: podcast this morning.
S2: Thank you for having me.
S1: After the break, Uncle Len Waters on what welcome to
S1: country ceremonies really mean. Uncle Len Waters, thank you so
S1: much for joining us on the podcast. Can you just
S1: begin by telling us first who you are and what
S1: your role is in performing? Welcome to country ceremonies.
S7: Yeah, well, my name Sam Len Waters. I'm a cameraman and, um,
S7: originate from our mission station. And, yeah, as an elder,
S7: you get invited to, um, do all sorts of work
S7: on the country, whether it be government, sort of, um, organizations, um,
S7: or whether it be community organizations, basically whatever people, um,
S7: really require, you know, it could be a funeral or
S7: it could even be, um, you know, a special message
S7: like the one just went, um, it was an Anzac
S7: Day mass.
S1: And can you just explain to us what a welcome
S1: to country is?
S7: Well, the welcome to country is basically something that's not new.
S7: It's been going on for, um, you know, centuries. And, um,
S7: basically when other tribes used to trek a long way, um,
S7: you know, by foot. Um, could even be hundreds of miles. And, um,
S7: they would arrive at the tribal lands of the people
S7: that invited them. And, um, basically, once they got there,
S7: they would gather and, um, wait to be welcomed onto
S7: their tribal lands. And, um, yeah, the main emphasis of it,
S7: I suppose, is to renew old relationships and, um, to
S7: make new relationships, but, um, importantly, to, um, mend relationships
S7: that might have conflict because, um, if there was conflict there,
S7: you weren't, um, invited on to country, weren't welcomed on country.
S7: That's the way it sort of goes back for, um, millennia,
S7: I suppose. But, um, um, it's only recently new, I suppose,
S7: in Australia because, um, it's only been the last period
S7: of time that people have been interested in Aboriginal culture
S7: and customs and that sort of stuff. So it's one
S7: thing that, um, over the ages, I suppose we weren't
S7: allowed to practice. Um, you know, a lot of our
S7: customs and, uh, ceremonial stuff. Um, yeah. And, um, even language.
S7: So it's a case of, um, it means. Well, when, um,
S7: you know, non-Aboriginal people are inviting you along to, um, um,
S7: you know, to do, uh, a work on a country
S7: to sort of signify that their event is, um, being
S7: held on, um, you know, traditional lands of one tribe
S7: or another.
S1: And what actually went through your mind when you heard
S1: about uncle Mark Brown being booed during his welcome on
S1: Anzac Day?
S7: I thought, um, yeah, it was very sort of, um, odd.
S7: I mean, you know, sort of it's a bit like
S7: somebody getting up and, um, heckling, um, somebody during the
S7: Lord's Prayer or, you know, even sort of, um, the
S7: national anthem or, um, or other things that people hold
S7: dear to themselves. People more and more are becoming, uh,
S7: more disrespectful of, um, of people in general, you know,
S7: and we're just sort of people that, um, yeah, have
S7: lost blocks. Compression. In a lot of ways.
S1: It does make me want to ask you, I guess,
S1: what the impact of a debate like this and, you know,
S1: all of this rhetoric questioning the existence of a welcome
S1: to country, what sort of impact does it have on
S1: indigenous people like yourself?
S7: Yeah. No, I just sort of think, you know, for myself,
S7: with the case of, um, you know, um, we've come
S7: so far, you know, we've lost so much and, um,
S7: you know, to, um, you know, to deny, you know,
S7: Australian people on these toilet practices, you know, um, I
S7: just think it takes us backwards. And it was over
S7: the weekend. I've seen many Dawn services or, um, sporting
S7: matches and that sort of stuff where people are saying
S7: the New Zealand anthem. Yeah. And, um, basically whether they
S7: be indigenous to New Zealand or not, there is, um,
S7: a certain section of that that is um, done in, um, uh,
S7: in their language. And I think, you know, well, how
S7: cool is that? You know, it's something to, um, really behold.
S7: If we're to grow as a nation, you know, we've
S7: got to sort of grow together and have these respectful
S7: things put into play. And we start pulling these things
S7: down now and taking us backwards. What does that say
S7: about us as a, as a country? You know, um,
S7: we've got a whole strong in a lot of things. And,
S7: you know, by trying to bury or, um, disregard, um,
S7: Aboriginal issues. Well, you know, we're not growing, you know,
S7: we're not, um, we're not taking any steps forward.
S1: And I guess just to wrap up, I mean, what
S1: would you like white Australians to perhaps remember when they're
S1: thinking about and they're debating this issue?
S7: Well, I think two is the plight of Aboriginal, um,
S7: history itself. You know, it's not a, a pretty history
S7: and that sort of stuff. But, um, you know, and
S7: as much as we want to say, well, yeah, let's
S7: forget about the past, you Yeah, but you know, we've
S7: got to hold the past there because, um, that's the
S7: way we learn and that's the way people carry on
S7: these legacies. It's one of these things where, um, you know,
S7: get rid of it. And then what do we get
S7: rid of? To get rid of. I welcome the country
S7: to me is sort of, um, I just don't I
S7: would sort of start to lose faith, I think, in, um,
S7: in humanity itself.
S1: Yeah.
S7: You know, because I just sort of think. Yeah. What
S7: type of people are we? Yeah. And, um, sure. You know,
S7: we've got to be better than what we have been
S7: in the past, but we're only going to get better
S7: in the future if we allow ourselves to be better
S7: in the future. And that means, you know, um, the
S7: notion of, um, inclusiveness.
S1: I really appreciate you taking the time to, to speak
S1: to me about this. So thank you so much, Uncle Len,
S1: for your time.
S7: Well, thank you and good morning.
S1: And to you. Take care. Bye. Today's episode of The
S1: Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is
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S1: Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
S1: Thanks for listening.