1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,040 S1: We all know how a neighbour with irksome habits can 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,440 S1: drive us to distraction. Maybe their leaf blower is their 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,240 S1: best friend or they blast their music at all hours. 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,360 S1: But what if your neighbour is Gina Rinehart, Australia's richest woman, 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,320 S1: and you're on a disability pension? I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,360 S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition. From The Age and 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:33,000 S1: the Sydney Morning Herald today, investigative reporter Lucy Macken on 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,519 S1: why the Supreme Court is hearing a case involving feral 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,920 S1: goats and a 12 kilometre fence, and why each woman 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:49,280 S1: won't call off the fight. Welcome, Lucy, to the morning edition. 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,200 S2: Hi, Sam. 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,839 S1: You know, I've had you in my sights to have 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,720 S1: you on for so long because you have so many 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,760 S1: great yarns. So let's get into it. I mean, before 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,720 S1: we get into the dispute over the fence, which is 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,800 S1: going before the New South Wales Supreme Court as we 17 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:04,510 S1: record this. Can you just start off by telling us 18 00:01:04,510 --> 00:01:06,990 S1: a little bit about where these properties are located? And 19 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:09,550 S1: you know why this is such rich cattle country? Because 20 00:01:09,550 --> 00:01:12,429 S1: this is not exactly the setting for your run of 21 00:01:12,430 --> 00:01:14,630 S1: the mill neighbourly fence stoush. 22 00:01:15,069 --> 00:01:18,230 S2: No, it certainly isn't. For starters, it's a fence between 23 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:20,869 S2: two farms. So this is not a housing thing. This 24 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:24,869 S2: is a major farm dispute. Farm fence dispute. The main 25 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:28,950 S2: farm is Gina Rinehart's vast Wagyu beef operation, Sundown Valley, 26 00:01:28,950 --> 00:01:30,990 S2: which she bought in 2018. By the way, for what 27 00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:34,309 S2: land titles indicate is about 100 million. And she's since 28 00:01:34,310 --> 00:01:39,229 S2: expanded to cover about 42,000 hectares across the Northern Tablelands. 29 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:45,229 S2: I should add that Sundown Valley surrounds a small 157 30 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:49,190 S2: hectare property known as Alawa, and that's owned by Cathy Pope. 31 00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:52,910 S2: There's also another property next door to Cathy Pope Alawa, too, 32 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:56,110 S2: and that's also involved in the proceedings. So basically, you've 33 00:01:56,110 --> 00:02:01,030 S2: got this small pocket of 630 hectares surrounded by the 34 00:02:01,030 --> 00:02:05,620 S2: Gina Rinehart operation, and that is the fence boundary that 35 00:02:05,620 --> 00:02:09,660 S2: is in dispute. It's a David and Goliath stoush of 36 00:02:09,700 --> 00:02:11,100 S2: major proportions. 37 00:02:11,419 --> 00:02:13,660 S3: Okay, so can you just tell us how you actually. 38 00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:15,859 S1: Came across this story? I mean, we all love hearing 39 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:18,380 S1: about a bit of a neighbourly stoush, I think, because 40 00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:20,660 S1: we can relate. Right? It's really easy to get ticked 41 00:02:20,660 --> 00:02:23,139 S1: off by the habits of those that we sometimes live 42 00:02:23,180 --> 00:02:26,420 S1: uncomfortably close to. But of course, this one, like you say, 43 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:31,700 S1: involves Australia's richest person. She is worth an estimated $38 billion, 44 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:34,139 S1: as you pointed out in your piece. And of course, 45 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:37,380 S1: we're dealing with thousands of acres of land. So how 46 00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:39,220 S1: did you stumble on this, Lucy? 47 00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:43,419 S2: Well, look, Cathy Pope is suing Gina Rinehart personally. So 48 00:02:43,419 --> 00:02:47,540 S2: when Georgina Hope Rinehart, as she's formerly known, name, comes 49 00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:50,500 S2: up on court lists, you know, it's inevitable that somebody 50 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:53,540 S2: is going to pick it up. And I was there. Right? 51 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:56,780 S2: Cathy Pope, however, is not a familiar name. And there 52 00:02:56,820 --> 00:02:59,500 S2: turns out there are quite a few Cathy popes in Australia. Um, 53 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:02,660 S2: but once I had tracked her down, the story behind 54 00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:07,000 S2: these proceedings became a little bit more apparent. Cathy Pope claims, 55 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000 S2: and I should add, this is a disputed claim by 56 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,040 S2: Reinhart's office. She claims she's lost about 800 animals over 57 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,120 S2: the years because of the dilapidated state of the fence 58 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,600 S2: that separates their two farms. She has cattle, sheep, goats, 59 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,760 S2: wild deer, uh, some pretty fancy dogs, Maremma, guardian dogs, 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,960 S2: and without the proper fencing, she keeps losing her animals. 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,680 S2: Gina Rinehart's property is also known to have animals cross 62 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,480 S2: over the boundary, and there are reports from her side 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,520 S2: of the fence there. Apparently they've had issues with goats 64 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,600 S2: and pigs digging under the fence and the need to 65 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,240 S2: treat Cathy's animals for disease. So at the heart of it, 66 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,480 S2: Cathy Pope says in 2019, you know, it was a 67 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,280 S2: year after Gina Rinehart bought the farm next door. There 68 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,840 S2: were negotiations to share the cost of fencing. Just what 69 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,160 S2: was agreed. Of course, who is liable for what and 70 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,440 S2: whether there was any agreement in the first place is 71 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:00,840 S2: what's before the courts now. 72 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,240 S1: Okay, so where did everything go wrong? Because you had 73 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:08,150 S1: in your piece that when Kathy Pope first found out 74 00:04:08,150 --> 00:04:10,750 S1: that Gina Rinehart's farm was going to be next to hers, 75 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:13,270 S1: she was really excited. She was something of a fan. 76 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:16,470 S1: And at least according to Kathy, they had come to 77 00:04:16,510 --> 00:04:20,750 S1: a verbal agreement about the fence. So what happened? 78 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:23,070 S2: Yeah. No. And and that is I've got to add, 79 00:04:23,070 --> 00:04:26,310 S2: that is Kathy Pope's claim. Uh, Gina Rinehart's because it's 80 00:04:26,310 --> 00:04:29,390 S2: a matter before the courts. Gina Rinehart's office have declined 81 00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:32,550 S2: to issue any statement, but she did say that she 82 00:04:32,589 --> 00:04:35,550 S2: offered to pay for the materials as long as Rinehart's 83 00:04:35,550 --> 00:04:38,310 S2: management team would cover the labor and contribute to the 84 00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:41,430 S2: use of any machinery and materials that they had on site. 85 00:04:41,630 --> 00:04:44,390 S2: So it was a sort of form of the of, 86 00:04:44,950 --> 00:04:47,950 S2: you know, going halves in a way. And while that's 87 00:04:47,950 --> 00:04:51,830 S2: sort of disputed, um, I do also know that Kathy 88 00:04:51,870 --> 00:04:54,990 S2: Pope did go about organizing finance to fund her part 89 00:04:55,029 --> 00:04:57,390 S2: of things because she's got a loan on title from 90 00:04:57,390 --> 00:05:00,430 S2: the Rural Assistance Authority taken out in 2021 to the 91 00:05:00,430 --> 00:05:04,230 S2: tune of $100,000 and that, you know, debt remains lodged 92 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:07,020 S2: on the title. As for the total cost of what 93 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:11,220 S2: this is, I mean, I mean, costs haven't gone down 94 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:13,980 S2: in the years since, but at the time, Kathy Pope 95 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:16,180 S2: claimed that they were trying to do the fence, that 96 00:05:16,180 --> 00:05:19,460 S2: if she borrowed 100,000 through in 20,000 of her own, 97 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:22,540 S2: that would cover about half of it. So we're looking 98 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:26,740 S2: at about $250,000 for a fence, and that's depending on 99 00:05:26,740 --> 00:05:29,540 S2: the range of factors like the height, the type, you know, 100 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:31,660 S2: the land that it's got to cover, you know, things 101 00:05:31,660 --> 00:05:35,660 S2: like that. I should add that complicating this whole drama 102 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:38,700 S2: is the fact that Kathy Pope doesn't just want her 103 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:41,900 S2: place fenced, she wants it also to fence the neighbor's 104 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,859 S2: place next door. Now, she's had a long standing agreement 105 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:48,300 S2: with her friend Mary Jacobs, who owns the farm's next door, 106 00:05:48,339 --> 00:05:51,420 S2: that she can agist all her animals on Mary's farm 107 00:05:51,420 --> 00:05:54,539 S2: as well, taking the total farmland that she's got access 108 00:05:54,540 --> 00:05:59,060 S2: to to about 630 hectares. But in exchange, she needs to, 109 00:05:59,339 --> 00:06:01,940 S2: you know, maintain the fences, maintain the tracks and all 110 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:04,460 S2: that sort of stuff. And so for that reason, you know, 111 00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:07,370 S2: it's a situation that suited both women well. And so 112 00:06:07,410 --> 00:06:11,970 S2: Mary has joined with Kathy Pope as a second plaintiff 113 00:06:11,970 --> 00:06:14,890 S2: in the proceedings against Gina Rinehart. I should add that 114 00:06:15,010 --> 00:06:18,530 S2: neither of the women have any legal representation in this 115 00:06:18,529 --> 00:06:19,890 S2: matter against Gina. 116 00:06:20,089 --> 00:06:22,250 S1: Which I guess feeds into this, you know, David and 117 00:06:22,250 --> 00:06:25,290 S1: Goliath sort of narrative, right? Because we've spoken about Gina 118 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:29,170 S1: Rinehart's billions and Kathy Pope, I believe, is a disability 119 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:33,130 S1: pensioner and a hobby farmer. So very, very different access 120 00:06:33,130 --> 00:06:34,970 S1: that they've got, I guess, to help in this matter. 121 00:06:35,089 --> 00:06:36,809 S1: So tell us where it all went wrong though, because 122 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:40,250 S1: as you've written, some fencing had been built. So the 123 00:06:40,250 --> 00:06:43,570 S1: fencing it started and I guess about 800m I think 124 00:06:43,570 --> 00:06:47,730 S1: of fencing was put down, I think in about 2022. 125 00:06:47,770 --> 00:06:49,250 S1: What happened? Because then it stopped. 126 00:06:49,529 --> 00:06:51,770 S2: Yeah, exactly. And at that time, Kathy says that she 127 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:56,890 S2: got $25,000 in financial contributions from Hancock prospecting towards it. 128 00:06:56,930 --> 00:07:00,410 S2: Everything was going along tickety boo, according to Kathy. And 129 00:07:00,410 --> 00:07:03,090 S2: then work stopped. At the time, one of the contractors 130 00:07:03,089 --> 00:07:08,070 S2: involved in the fencing was arrested on arson charges in 131 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:11,190 S2: the town of Uralla nearby, and has since been sentenced 132 00:07:11,630 --> 00:07:15,550 S2: and found guilty and sentenced for that. Now, somehow or other, 133 00:07:15,670 --> 00:07:18,309 S2: I think he was involved in the fencing. It didn't 134 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:20,790 S2: have anything to do with the dispute, but it was 135 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:24,710 S2: timed at the time when everything ground to a halt. Um, now, 136 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:28,150 S2: of course, the problem is this is all Cathy's say. 137 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:30,790 S2: So Gina's lawyers, they haven't come in and said that 138 00:07:30,790 --> 00:07:34,230 S2: there was any agreement either way or if there wasn't. 139 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,670 S2: And of course it was, as Cathy said, a verbal agreement. 140 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:40,910 S2: So whether that holds as well, you know, that verbal 141 00:07:40,910 --> 00:07:44,230 S2: agreements do hold, but that is all yet to be tested. 142 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:46,430 S1: Does Gina dispute that there was a verbal agreement or 143 00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:48,790 S1: she's just made no statement on that grounds yet? 144 00:07:48,830 --> 00:07:52,150 S2: They have disputed all of Cathy Pope's claims that I 145 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:55,150 S2: put to them. But then it said that we won't 146 00:07:55,150 --> 00:07:57,590 S2: comment any further because it's a matter for the courts. 147 00:07:57,590 --> 00:08:00,990 S2: But the fact that work stopped in 2022 and Cathy's 148 00:08:01,030 --> 00:08:06,310 S2: popes failed to get work started again. You know, multiple approaches, 149 00:08:06,350 --> 00:08:10,260 S2: you know, calling every senior executive, it seems, in the 150 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:12,940 S2: you know Hancock prospecting and Hancock, you know and in 151 00:08:12,940 --> 00:08:16,660 S2: the farming management team, you know with no success. That 152 00:08:16,660 --> 00:08:20,020 S2: is what has basically culminated in her launching legal proceedings 153 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:21,380 S2: in the Supreme Court now. 154 00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:23,740 S1: And so, you know, we had a conversation before we 155 00:08:23,740 --> 00:08:26,580 S1: started recording because on the face of it, it seems 156 00:08:26,580 --> 00:08:29,700 S1: like this David versus Goliath battle, you know, a deeply 157 00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:33,380 S1: unequal struggle. One side, you've got Australia's richest person, you know, 158 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:37,100 S1: with sophisticated lawyers on speed dial. And, you know, on 159 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:39,380 S1: the other side, you've got a hobby farmer, a disability 160 00:08:39,380 --> 00:08:43,500 S1: pensioner who at the moment can't afford legal representation. So 161 00:08:43,660 --> 00:08:45,340 S1: is it a bit more complicated than that or is 162 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:46,540 S1: it really simple? 163 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:49,819 S2: Now look, it is, you know, is it a matter 164 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:52,900 S2: of the court just enforcing a simple fencing dispute? You know, 165 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:56,380 S2: the Dividing Fences act, you know, and I'll paraphrase it here, 166 00:08:56,660 --> 00:08:59,700 S2: if you don't mind. You know, basically when an old 167 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:01,980 S2: or broken fence is replaced, the cost is shared by 168 00:09:01,980 --> 00:09:04,100 S2: you and your neighbour. Like for like, right. If you 169 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:10,010 S2: want extra finishes. Double capped folder. Painted border. And it 170 00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:13,170 S2: wasn't there before. Then you copped the extra cost, right? Um, 171 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:15,850 S2: but in this case, the question is, is Cathy Pope 172 00:09:15,850 --> 00:09:18,410 S2: liable for the costs of the fence that needs to 173 00:09:18,410 --> 00:09:22,650 S2: be repaired, or is Gina Rinehart? If so, what type 174 00:09:22,690 --> 00:09:25,010 S2: of fence is required? And bearing in mind that at 175 00:09:25,010 --> 00:09:27,689 S2: the time Cathy Pope claims she started negotiating, it was 176 00:09:27,690 --> 00:09:31,890 S2: an estimated 250,000. Right. Five years later, that will be 177 00:09:31,890 --> 00:09:34,530 S2: a bigger cost. You know, I don't know how Cathy 178 00:09:34,570 --> 00:09:36,450 S2: Pope would afford that. I'm sure she might be able 179 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:38,569 S2: to or. But if you can't afford a lawyer, that's 180 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:40,970 S2: that's a lot of fence. And then there's also the 181 00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:45,450 S2: question of whether this verbal agreement in 2019, if there 182 00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:48,770 S2: was one, you know, is that enforceable? And if so, 183 00:09:48,809 --> 00:09:52,250 S2: it might raise the issue of a promissory estoppel, whereby 184 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:54,890 S2: promise is enforced without the need for a formal contract, 185 00:09:54,890 --> 00:09:58,089 S2: provided one side relied on that promise like a sort 186 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:00,689 S2: of shield, you know, when the other party breaks a promise, 187 00:10:00,929 --> 00:10:05,010 S2: or whether that verbal agreement, you know, was never actually agreed. And, 188 00:10:05,050 --> 00:10:09,319 S2: you know, obviously behind it all are two fairly A 189 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,079 S2: pair of neighbors. 190 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,040 S1: After the break. 191 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,679 S2: And there have been offers to settle on both sides. Actually, 192 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,439 S2: the Rinehart side haven't disclosed their settlement offers, but Kathy 193 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,520 S2: Pope did say that she'd made a few offers initially. 194 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,679 S2: She told me she said she just wanted to get 195 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,000 S2: the fence around her and her neighbor's property. You know, 196 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,920 S2: where she had just property fixed. But since then, the 197 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,640 S2: offers have escalated. And the last one, apparently, she tells me, 198 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,240 S2: included about $10 million worth of costs and damages. 199 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,839 S1: And how fraud. I mean, my understanding is that both have, 200 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,000 S1: I guess, experienced lawsuits of their own on each side, right? 201 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,800 S1: I mean, is it fair to say that perhaps both have, 202 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,760 S1: if not a litigious nature, then they have been involved 203 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:03,680 S1: in lawsuits, I guess. 204 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:04,720 S4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 205 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,880 S2: Look, Kathy Pope described herself to me in the very 206 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,780 S2: first moments that I spoke to her on the phone. 207 00:11:11,059 --> 00:11:13,140 S2: She said, I am the sort of person who, when 208 00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:16,020 S2: I see any sort of wrong against me, I can't 209 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:18,380 S2: let it go. And it causes me all sorts of 210 00:11:18,380 --> 00:11:21,260 S2: problems in my life. And and I have never forgotten 211 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:24,420 S2: those words because it is causing all sorts of problems 212 00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:26,780 S2: in her life, you know, and she doesn't have the 213 00:11:26,780 --> 00:11:30,020 S2: means to fight it. She is, but she's doing so. 214 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:33,020 S2: I really feel for her, whether she's right or in 215 00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:34,980 S2: the wrong here. I do feel for her. 216 00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:38,100 S5: But it has to be asked. I mean, Gina Rinehart. 217 00:11:38,140 --> 00:11:42,700 S1: Is worth an estimated $38 billion, so why would she 218 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,740 S1: just not settle outside of court, get the fencing done 219 00:11:45,740 --> 00:11:49,420 S1: so everyone can just move on with their lives? Yeah. 220 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:49,780 S1: Why not? 221 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:52,060 S2: Yeah, yeah. And there have been offers to settle on 222 00:11:52,059 --> 00:11:56,459 S2: both sides. Actually, the Rinehart side haven't disclosed their settlement offers, 223 00:11:56,460 --> 00:11:58,980 S2: but Kathy Pope did say that she'd made a few 224 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:02,140 S2: offers initially. She told me she said she just wanted 225 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:04,380 S2: to get the fence around her and her neighbours property. 226 00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:07,179 S2: You know where she had this property fixed? Um, but 227 00:12:07,179 --> 00:12:11,650 S2: since then, the offers have escalated. Um, and the last one, apparently, 228 00:12:11,650 --> 00:12:15,290 S2: she tells me, included about $10 million worth of costs 229 00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:19,890 S2: and damages, as well as having 200 hectares of land 230 00:12:19,929 --> 00:12:24,290 S2: of of Reinhart land surrounding, you know, that is nearest 231 00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:28,970 S2: to Kathy Pope's house transferred into Kathy Pope's ownership. So, yeah. 232 00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:33,650 S2: Is that outrageous? It sounds pretty bold. I can't help 233 00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:36,530 S2: but wonder if the damage that's been done is that high. 234 00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:40,010 S2: Maybe I'm wrong and it was rejected. So yeah, I 235 00:12:40,050 --> 00:12:43,570 S2: don't think Reinhart was having a moment of it, but 236 00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:45,490 S2: at the end of the day, Kathy felt like she 237 00:12:45,490 --> 00:12:48,450 S2: had no other option than to go to court. And 238 00:12:48,450 --> 00:12:51,170 S2: for now, as she you know, I think I quoted 239 00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:53,290 S2: her on there, she's left paying off her a loan 240 00:12:53,330 --> 00:12:55,809 S2: for a fence that isn't there and still dealing with 241 00:12:55,809 --> 00:12:58,330 S2: the issue of stock coming and going over the boundary. 242 00:12:58,570 --> 00:13:00,930 S1: Okay. And on the other side, I do have to ask, 243 00:13:00,970 --> 00:13:03,370 S1: you know, it's it's one thing to say, okay, shouldn't 244 00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:05,850 S1: just Gina just pay up? But is it perhaps arguable 245 00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:08,209 S1: that Kathy Pope gives as good as she gets, and 246 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:10,690 S1: that perhaps she would have been better off just taking 247 00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:13,600 S1: one of Hancock Prospecting offers to settle. Like, do we 248 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,199 S1: know why Cathy is persisting? I mean, I know that 249 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,320 S1: in your piece she mentioned something about, you know, adhering 250 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,719 S1: to a farmer's code. So maybe you can begin by 251 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,200 S1: telling us, you know, what she meant by that? She 252 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,319 S1: feels like Gina Rinehart has breached some sort of social 253 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,520 S1: norm amongst farmers. 254 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,160 S2: Well, I think what her point is, is that in 255 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,839 S2: the country, um, you know, the neighbors chip in and 256 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,559 S2: help each other. And I'm sure that, you know, people 257 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,120 S2: lean into Gina Rinehart and say, can you help out 258 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,679 S2: your neighbors here, there and everywhere? And I'm sure that happens. 259 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,040 S2: And certainly, you know, there is obviously that going on. 260 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,080 S2: You know, there are reports from, um, Hancock, um, agriculture 261 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,800 S2: that some of Cathy Pope's animals have been treated for 262 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,240 S2: disease and then returned. Um, there's also Cathy Pope's contention 263 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,840 S2: that animals have gone missing. She blames, you know, the 264 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,319 S2: lost fence and all this sort of stuff. I mean, 265 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,600 S2: there has been a bit of give and take. Um, 266 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,319 S2: but I think as Cathy Pope's, you know, calls for 267 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,160 S2: this fence work to be recommenced that started, you know, 268 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,950 S2: in 2021 and to get work done, uh, has got 269 00:14:15,950 --> 00:14:20,470 S2: louder and louder. It hasn't been received positively. Let's just 270 00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:21,070 S2: say that. 271 00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:22,870 S1: To say the least. Now, I know that, you know, 272 00:14:22,910 --> 00:14:25,430 S1: we're not going to find out more until March 5th, 273 00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:27,270 S1: which I believe is when we're going to find out whether, 274 00:14:27,310 --> 00:14:28,870 S1: you know, I guess the court is even willing for 275 00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:30,030 S1: this case to go forward. 276 00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:30,630 S2: That's right. 277 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:32,870 S1: But just to wrap up, Lucy, you know, from your 278 00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:36,550 S1: research into this dispute, does it seem like there's one 279 00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:39,070 S1: party that's wronged more than the other? Or perhaps do 280 00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:42,630 S1: we just have two litigious neighbors, neither of whom wants 281 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:44,430 S1: to sort of give in to the other side? 282 00:14:44,830 --> 00:14:48,270 S2: I think the latter, actually, you know, both of them 283 00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:51,990 S2: are not shy of a court fight. And that's, you know, 284 00:14:52,030 --> 00:14:55,710 S2: certainly in Gina Rinehart's case that's documented. And Kathy Pope 285 00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:58,630 S2: has certainly fronted up for quite a few court cases 286 00:14:58,630 --> 00:15:02,870 S2: of her own self-represented to in the latest one, without 287 00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:06,030 S2: knowing the actual settlement offers and the terms of the 288 00:15:06,030 --> 00:15:09,390 S2: agreements previously. I'm not going to hazard a guess on 289 00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:13,070 S2: either side. I will leave that to justice. Hammerschlag but 290 00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:15,330 S2: he did. You know, when it came up before him 291 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:19,330 S2: in court, it was only a mention, a quick, you know, directions, 292 00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:23,690 S2: five minute matter. Cathy wasn't in the courtroom. She was, 293 00:15:23,730 --> 00:15:27,170 S2: you know, remotely tuning into the court material. There were 294 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:30,690 S2: about half a dozen lawyers representing Gina Rinehart and her 295 00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:34,570 S2: various interests, but it was basically just a chance for 296 00:15:34,570 --> 00:15:37,530 S2: the judge to warn Cathy that if the material she 297 00:15:37,530 --> 00:15:39,890 S2: had submitted to the court so far was just not 298 00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:43,250 S2: going to cut it, and that, you know, it wasn't 299 00:15:43,250 --> 00:15:46,090 S2: even vaguely enough to pass for a decent statement of claim. 300 00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:48,250 S2: And he gave her 21 days to file a workable 301 00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:50,930 S2: statement of claim, or he would dismiss the case before 302 00:15:50,930 --> 00:15:54,010 S2: it had even started, you know. So, yeah, we'll find 303 00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:55,850 S2: out on March 5th if the case is going forward 304 00:15:55,850 --> 00:15:58,690 S2: from here, or if Cathy Pope's lack of legal representation 305 00:15:58,690 --> 00:15:59,930 S2: has brought it all undone. 306 00:16:00,370 --> 00:16:02,530 S1: After doing the research, because I know you did speak 307 00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:05,690 S1: to Cathy Pope at length. Yes. Um, and obviously you've 308 00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:08,330 S1: you've dug into the defense's act. Who knew that? Who 309 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:10,930 S1: knew there was one? Is there any lesson in this 310 00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:12,170 S1: for us, for the listeners? 311 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:14,640 S2: I don't know, but I did sit in court today, 312 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,400 S2: and I looked across at the half a dozen senior 313 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,960 S2: counsel and lawyers and so forth, and they were just 314 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,360 S2: the ones in the room and the media minders and 315 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,160 S2: all of that. And I did wonder for the cost 316 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,600 S2: of this five minute appearance, you know, maybe just fence 317 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:31,320 S2: the whole place. 318 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,000 S1: Just pensive. At whose cost? Lucy Macken. 319 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,720 S2: Okay. Okay. That's fine, as long as I'm not paying 320 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:40,800 S2: for it or whatever. 321 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,440 S1: Well, Lucy, you always have a really interesting yarn. So 322 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,920 S1: thank you so much for your time. 323 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:49,600 S2: Thank you. 324 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,800 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 325 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,400 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 326 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,359 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 327 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,720 S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 328 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,560 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.