1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,000 S1: Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of F.W.. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,879 S1: I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 S1: edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018 I launched my 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,960 S1: own business. F.W. is dedicated to helping women navigate their 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,640 S1: working lives. But I've made my share of mistakes, especially 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,800 S1: as a leader. In this series, I go in search 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,640 S1: of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore the 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,280 S1: latest thinking on how to be a great leader and 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,720 S1: return to the tried and true methods to better understand 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:42,280 S1: what works and in what situations. My guest this week 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,760 S1: is one of the most scrutinized leaders in the nation. 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,320 S1: At times, it feels like her decisions are even more 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:54,120 S1: hotly debated and discussed than those of a premier. Laura 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,720 S1: Kane is the executive general manager of football operations at 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,630 S1: the AFL. At just 33, she became the first woman 16 00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:08,150 S1: to serve as the league's top football official. It's a 17 00:01:08,190 --> 00:01:12,590 S1: remarkable achievement. Today, she continues to hold one of the 18 00:01:12,590 --> 00:01:17,709 S1: most prestigious football operating roles at the AFL. In this episode, 19 00:01:17,709 --> 00:01:22,150 S1: we talk about how Laura navigates scrutiny. How do you 20 00:01:22,150 --> 00:01:28,069 S1: make decisions when everyone has an opinion? Plus, stay tuned 21 00:01:28,069 --> 00:01:31,789 S1: for leadership. Your questions answered straight after the interview. I, 22 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:42,910 S1: along with producer Odessa Blain, will answer your leadership dilemmas. Laura, 23 00:01:42,910 --> 00:01:46,190 S1: welcome to the podcast. To say you've got a big 24 00:01:46,190 --> 00:01:49,870 S1: job is a bit of an understatement, but for those 25 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:54,550 S1: of us that are a bit obsessed with AFL, what 26 00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:56,670 S1: does your job actually look like? What do you do 27 00:01:56,710 --> 00:02:00,670 S1: day to day? Firstly, thank you for having me. It's varied, 28 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:03,590 S1: my day. It can be different every single day. But 29 00:02:03,590 --> 00:02:08,470 S1: I look after football operations, healthcare and the growth of 30 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:12,269 S1: AFL and AFL more broadly here at the AFL. So 31 00:02:12,590 --> 00:02:16,190 S1: it's a real mix. It's the fast paced day to 32 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:19,390 S1: day of football operations running the competitions. We look after 33 00:02:19,389 --> 00:02:23,149 S1: all four of our competitions. So, you know, hundreds of 34 00:02:23,150 --> 00:02:26,790 S1: decisions a day all the way through to long term 35 00:02:26,830 --> 00:02:30,670 S1: strategic thinking. Big picture. What do we want something to 36 00:02:30,669 --> 00:02:32,910 S1: look like in the future? And that can all happen 37 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:35,870 S1: in one single day. So varied. I'm trying to think 38 00:02:35,870 --> 00:02:39,030 S1: of a different word for busy. So it every day 39 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:42,829 S1: is different. I remember the first time I met you 40 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:46,870 S1: and something you said really stuck with me and I 41 00:02:46,870 --> 00:02:49,310 S1: repeated it. I asked what you know, what we could 42 00:02:49,310 --> 00:02:51,870 S1: do to help, and did anyone have any asks of 43 00:02:52,270 --> 00:02:56,339 S1: the F1 community? And you said yes, everyone to go 44 00:02:56,340 --> 00:03:00,100 S1: to one AFL game this year, which was such a 45 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,220 S1: good ask, right? And it was such a fun thing 46 00:03:02,260 --> 00:03:06,820 S1: to say. So before I kick off with more leadership questions. 47 00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:10,820 S1: How's AFL going and are you getting those those crowds 48 00:03:10,820 --> 00:03:13,739 S1: that you that you need to start to see? Yeah, 49 00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:16,900 S1: it's going so well. Uh, I'm glad you remembered that. 50 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:20,660 S1: That was the idea. So, uh, it's so much fun 51 00:03:20,660 --> 00:03:23,619 S1: when you go along that, you know, half of our 52 00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:26,020 S1: job is just getting people there. And we know that 53 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:28,860 S1: when they get there and they experience it for themselves, 54 00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:32,100 S1: they love it and they go back. So crowds are up, 55 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:35,180 S1: which is which is a really great thing to see. Uh, 56 00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:38,060 S1: but what we're seeing is a real, a real burst 57 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:41,060 S1: in attendance when we have special event, what we're calling 58 00:03:41,060 --> 00:03:44,740 S1: marquee games. So it's going really well. We had our 59 00:03:44,740 --> 00:03:48,780 S1: biggest and best season yet and we hope and we're 60 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:51,580 S1: trying to get as big as we possibly can into 61 00:03:51,580 --> 00:03:54,220 S1: the future. And that's part of my new role here 62 00:03:54,220 --> 00:03:56,780 S1: on the exec to to look after w more broadly. 63 00:03:56,780 --> 00:03:59,380 S1: So yeah, it must be very must be very gratifying. 64 00:03:59,420 --> 00:04:01,300 S1: And then you watch, you know, you watch the Matildas 65 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:02,660 S1: that are playing at the moment. And you can sort 66 00:04:02,660 --> 00:04:04,180 S1: of get a sense like if you're looking to the 67 00:04:04,180 --> 00:04:06,940 S1: future of what this is going to look like. All right, 68 00:04:06,940 --> 00:04:09,180 S1: we could probably talk a lot about football, but I 69 00:04:09,220 --> 00:04:13,700 S1: will go back to the reasons why I wanted to 70 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:17,500 S1: talk to you and for our listeners to get a 71 00:04:17,500 --> 00:04:20,260 S1: sense of how you've managed your career and landed where 72 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:24,820 S1: you've landed. You started out as a lawyer and you're 73 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:28,099 S1: now holding one of the most prestigious and sought after 74 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:31,140 S1: roles in one of the most sought after organizations in 75 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:37,620 S1: the country. Can you explain how that career shift happened? Yeah, 76 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:40,220 S1: I mean, it's a it's a weird turn of events, 77 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:42,500 S1: to be honest, to go from a personal injury lawyer 78 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:46,180 S1: to working in sports administration. But I was a junior 79 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:50,020 S1: lawyer working on a royal commission. It was really hard work, 80 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:53,490 S1: but really meaningful work. So the Child Abuse Royal Commission 81 00:04:54,050 --> 00:04:57,210 S1: more than a decade ago now. But football was my passion, 82 00:04:57,250 --> 00:05:00,850 S1: my hobby. I played footy, uh, as a teenager, as 83 00:05:00,850 --> 00:05:04,089 S1: a young, a young kid, and I was working and 84 00:05:04,089 --> 00:05:07,330 S1: helping the North Melbourne Football Club with their application for 85 00:05:07,330 --> 00:05:11,570 S1: an AFL license. And part of that, um, support of 86 00:05:11,570 --> 00:05:13,610 S1: their CEO was trying to find someone to run their 87 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:16,409 S1: women's program. So we spent three months together trying to 88 00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:20,049 S1: find someone, uh, and couldn't quite find the right person. 89 00:05:20,050 --> 00:05:22,130 S1: And he said to me about three months later, what 90 00:05:22,130 --> 00:05:24,210 S1: about you? Do it. And so it was all a 91 00:05:24,210 --> 00:05:26,690 S1: bit of a happy accident, to be honest. Uh, and 92 00:05:26,690 --> 00:05:29,330 S1: I ended up, um, at North Melbourne for six years 93 00:05:29,330 --> 00:05:32,970 S1: working across men's and women's and now the AFL for 94 00:05:32,970 --> 00:05:36,330 S1: almost five. Whilst it's hard at times, it's a lot 95 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:39,729 S1: of fun. Uh, and, and I love that I've, in 96 00:05:39,770 --> 00:05:43,010 S1: maybe the weirdest turn of events, uh, had a career 97 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:46,370 S1: change that, you know, I couldn't imagine doing anything else now. Yeah. 98 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:49,489 S2: Laura. I, I think about growing up in a football 99 00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:53,050 S2: mad family and a football mad state with a footballer 100 00:05:53,050 --> 00:05:56,089 S2: in my family. And it's it's hard to overstate how 101 00:05:56,089 --> 00:06:00,210 S2: much I think of your achievement because it really was 102 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:04,690 S2: the world of men. I mean, I know women have 103 00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:07,930 S2: been massive football fans for a long time, but the 104 00:06:07,930 --> 00:06:11,690 S2: idea of playing and then becoming an administrator as a woman, 105 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:14,690 S2: even the idea of being a sports commentator as a 106 00:06:14,690 --> 00:06:18,529 S2: woman in my days as a journalist in television and newspapers, 107 00:06:18,730 --> 00:06:24,650 S2: was seen as extremely unlikely and inadvisable. So an incredible 108 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:29,770 S2: achievement by you. What parts of leadership do you find 109 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:30,730 S2: the easiest? 110 00:06:31,410 --> 00:06:35,570 S1: People. I love building relationships with people and I was 111 00:06:35,570 --> 00:06:39,770 S1: thinking about that before joining you today. You know, where 112 00:06:39,770 --> 00:06:44,250 S1: do I get joy out of leadership and meeting people, 113 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:47,850 S1: learning about their story, hearing about what drives them. I 114 00:06:47,850 --> 00:06:49,520 S1: just love it. And I thought, where do I get 115 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,960 S1: that from? And then I thought, my dad has some 116 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,360 S1: of his closest friends from the train commute to work. 117 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,760 S1: And so he would talk to everybody. And my mom's 118 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,960 S1: not dissimilar. So my family are a big group of people, 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,080 S1: people who love being present. And I definitely get that 120 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,360 S1: from both of them. So I love the opportunity to 121 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,080 S1: get to know and learn what makes people tick and 122 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,600 S1: why they show up in the way that they do 123 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,200 S1: and what drives them. 124 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,640 S2: Alright, so what's the hardest? 125 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,040 S1: I think being in leadership roles require you to make decisions, 126 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,080 S1: and the buck stops with you. And often you'll have 127 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,200 S1: to take a whole heap of different opinions, data points 128 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,160 S1: and make a decision and make a call. I think 129 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,040 S1: for for us at the AFL as a collective, there's 130 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,640 S1: probably fewer organizations that are scrutinized or talked about as 131 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,320 S1: much as us. So for me, the challenge is how 132 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,280 S1: do you how do you make that call knowing that 133 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,280 S1: those calls are public, they're heavily scrutinized and they're scrutinized, 134 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,200 S1: rightly so, because people care. How do you make those 135 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,200 S1: decisions consistently and effectively, uh, and continue to remain true 136 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,160 S1: to yourself from a leadership perspective and transparent and authentic 137 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,560 S1: at the same time that you know, those decisions will 138 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,400 S1: be highly scrutinized. Good, bad, or otherwise. So that part 139 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,280 S1: is always a challenge. Sometimes it's not the actual decision itself. 140 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,160 S1: It's the timing, the transparency, the communication that sits around 141 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,960 S1: the decision. Sometimes that can be more challenging and getting 142 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,520 S1: caught with the speed in which the public, the fans, 143 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,080 S1: the clubs, the stakeholders want you to make a decision. 144 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,240 S1: And then the speed in which you need to sort 145 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,160 S1: of sometimes slow down to make the best decision. There's 146 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,840 S1: so much in that, but it's, it's a day to 147 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,960 S1: day challenge in our industry, given how much interest there is. 148 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,079 S1: But like I said, uh, that's a privilege too. It's 149 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,360 S1: a privilege that so many people care about what we decide. 150 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,310 S2: I reckon the treasurer of Australia or the Premier of 151 00:08:47,309 --> 00:08:51,469 S2: Victoria has less scrutiny than a decision that you have 152 00:08:51,470 --> 00:08:56,590 S2: to make. So let's talk about scrutiny. How do you 153 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:01,070 S2: manage scrutiny and was it difficult at first and is 154 00:09:01,070 --> 00:09:02,390 S2: it getting easier now? 155 00:09:02,990 --> 00:09:05,310 S1: You have to keep perspective, and I've said it a 156 00:09:05,309 --> 00:09:08,829 S1: couple of times, but you have to remember and keep 157 00:09:08,830 --> 00:09:12,510 S1: perspective of the privileged position that we're in to make 158 00:09:12,510 --> 00:09:16,910 S1: the decision in the first place. And so to people 159 00:09:16,910 --> 00:09:20,030 S1: care and they they love the game so much. And 160 00:09:20,030 --> 00:09:23,590 S1: when you love something so much, you are passionate about it. 161 00:09:23,590 --> 00:09:25,390 S1: You want to tell people about it, you want to 162 00:09:25,390 --> 00:09:27,910 S1: give your opinion, you want to talk about it, you 163 00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:30,110 S1: want to unpack it. And so you always have to 164 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:34,310 S1: anchor yourself in that perspective. And then you, you, you 165 00:09:34,350 --> 00:09:37,550 S1: sort of have to find a new level, really, you 166 00:09:37,550 --> 00:09:40,470 S1: have to find a level of resilience that you didn't 167 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:44,110 S1: have before, a level that you can go to where 168 00:09:44,110 --> 00:09:47,189 S1: you can sort of understand that there's that passion and 169 00:09:47,230 --> 00:09:50,350 S1: that that interest in the game decisions still have to 170 00:09:50,350 --> 00:09:53,190 S1: be made ultimately where the regulator. And sometimes that means 171 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:55,390 S1: you say yes, and sometimes it means you say no. 172 00:09:55,390 --> 00:09:59,750 S1: And there I'm referring to our stakeholders, our clubs, for instance. 173 00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:03,430 S1: But then you also have the fans and they care. 174 00:10:03,710 --> 00:10:06,230 S1: They care. And so there are a lot of them, 175 00:10:06,230 --> 00:10:08,710 S1: which is a really good problem to have. And they 176 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:12,470 S1: have platforms where they can communicate what they think. And 177 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:15,510 S1: so I say to my team often if, if we're, um, 178 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:17,350 S1: you know, if we're having a hard week or there's 179 00:10:17,390 --> 00:10:19,750 S1: a lot going on in terms of decisions that we've 180 00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:22,949 S1: made or, or whatever the case may be, go to 181 00:10:22,990 --> 00:10:25,510 S1: the footy and wait for a goal to be scored 182 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:28,069 S1: and watch what the just watch the crowd. Don't watch 183 00:10:28,070 --> 00:10:31,550 S1: the field. That single moment where their team scores, they 184 00:10:31,550 --> 00:10:34,510 S1: all just jump up and and you just remember and can. 185 00:10:34,670 --> 00:10:36,870 S1: It helps you find that level. It helps you find 186 00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:39,790 S1: that different level. It doesn't mean it's not hard and 187 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:42,500 S1: it doesn't mean it's not a challenge and you have 188 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,140 S1: to sort of learn and grow and navigate your way 189 00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:48,660 S1: through things you've literally never dealt with before. But, but 190 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:51,860 S1: I just find I just go back to that perspective 191 00:10:51,860 --> 00:10:54,860 S1: and anchor myself in that and remember why there is 192 00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:57,700 S1: scrutiny and, and then, you know, you just, there's, there's 193 00:10:57,740 --> 00:10:58,860 S1: a joy in that too. 194 00:10:59,660 --> 00:11:02,540 S2: Do you assume you're going to get a percentage of 195 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:04,900 S2: people at all times? They're going to hate the decision 196 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:07,380 S2: you made. And then you've got a percentage of people 197 00:11:07,380 --> 00:11:09,220 S2: that are going to be thrilled by it. Do you 198 00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:11,300 S2: ever in your head go, all right, if I get 199 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:14,140 S2: 70 over 30 or 50 over 50? Like, is there 200 00:11:14,420 --> 00:11:17,140 S2: a percentage that you kind of go, yep, that's not 201 00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:20,579 S2: a bad call. I think I nailed that one and 202 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:21,739 S2: I can sleep easier. 203 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:26,220 S1: Uh, yes. If 100% of people agreed with what we said, 204 00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:29,820 S1: I would probably get worried. I know I would probably think, 205 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:33,340 S1: what's what's going on here? Um, and that's just because 206 00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:36,620 S1: it's millions and millions of people and they're all going 207 00:11:36,660 --> 00:11:39,020 S1: to have a different view. And most of the time 208 00:11:39,020 --> 00:11:41,620 S1: I'm making decisions on their team and they love their 209 00:11:41,620 --> 00:11:45,100 S1: team and they feel passionately and much like the example 210 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:49,340 S1: I gave before. I laugh inside at the footy when 211 00:11:49,380 --> 00:11:53,740 S1: there's a marking contest and one fan jumps up and says, 212 00:11:53,940 --> 00:11:56,620 S1: you know, cheers the mark. The other fan jumps up 213 00:11:56,620 --> 00:11:58,820 S1: and says, that's a push in the back, and the 214 00:11:58,820 --> 00:12:01,819 S1: other fan jumps up and says, no, it's not. And 215 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,020 S1: often it's only in support of the two teams. It's 216 00:12:04,020 --> 00:12:07,020 S1: not often in support of the umpires, but you have 217 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:12,740 S1: every different lens watching the same thing. And so yeah, 100%, 218 00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:15,500 S1: I think, would probably make me feel uncomfortable if 100% 219 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:17,339 S1: people agreed with what we were doing. So. 220 00:12:17,380 --> 00:12:19,380 S2: Alright, I'm going to I'm going to finish this podcast 221 00:12:19,380 --> 00:12:21,179 S2: by asking you who your favorite player is. So I'm 222 00:12:21,220 --> 00:12:23,860 S2: giving you a notification now, um, that I'm going to 223 00:12:23,860 --> 00:12:25,540 S2: finish the podcast on that because I feel like I 224 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:41,170 S2: want to find that out. Back to you. You are 225 00:12:41,490 --> 00:12:44,410 S2: in the moment where there is enormous scrutiny and you've. 226 00:12:44,410 --> 00:12:48,730 S2: You've got a very clever framework in which you operate under. 227 00:12:48,770 --> 00:12:51,970 S2: What about the personal side of you? Like the pressure 228 00:12:51,970 --> 00:12:55,690 S2: is enormous. The stress is huge. It is personal. Quite often. 229 00:12:55,690 --> 00:12:58,089 S2: It's not like you get to make the decision and 230 00:12:58,090 --> 00:13:02,209 S2: hide behind the CEO or a board. And where I'm 231 00:13:02,210 --> 00:13:04,890 S2: coming to with this question and why I'm asking you 232 00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:09,170 S2: this question is I'm looking for you to give people 233 00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:14,570 S2: that are struggling with decision making in which, you know, 234 00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:18,010 S2: they are on the hook for, and how do you 235 00:13:18,010 --> 00:13:22,130 S2: move through the emotions and the stress of the scrutiny 236 00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:24,850 S2: that you receive when you are kind of on the 237 00:13:24,850 --> 00:13:26,290 S2: hook at the end of the day, even though I'm 238 00:13:26,290 --> 00:13:28,410 S2: sure it's collaborative, you're kind of on the hook for 239 00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:29,170 S2: the decision. 240 00:13:29,690 --> 00:13:33,050 S1: It probably sounds like a cliche answer, but it's not 241 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:36,959 S1: intended to be because it works, I think often if 242 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,240 S1: you're under duress or you've had a hard day or 243 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,560 S1: you're busy, you go back to basics. So get a 244 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:49,280 S1: good night's sleep, exercise, eat well, make sure you're. Very 245 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,760 S1: purposeful with your day. And that might be that you 246 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,959 S1: take time out five minutes to yourself. Surround yourself with 247 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,520 S1: the people that you know, your people, your friends, family, 248 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,400 S1: whomever it may be. Somewhat ironically, most of my people 249 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,560 S1: like going to the footy for fun for their downtime. Sure. 250 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,720 S1: So but do that. Go along to the footy as 251 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,240 S1: a fan. So finding those moments in your week and 252 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,600 S1: making sure that you know what works for you. I've 253 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,080 S1: reeled off a whole heap of things that I do 254 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,240 S1: to sort of reset and, you know, ground yourself and 255 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,280 S1: be ready to go again the next day, the next week, 256 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,280 S1: the next month. But just find what yours are and 257 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,640 S1: do them. And I often talk to people who might 258 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,400 S1: be having to make the decisions or in the middle 259 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,440 S1: of decisions that are complicated and challenging. And you know 260 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,960 S1: how it is. Most of the time they say, oh, 261 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,040 S1: I had a bad sleep and I haven't exercised for 262 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,640 S1: a couple of days, and I haven't done all the 263 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,680 S1: things that actually sent to me and ground me and 264 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,040 S1: make me feel good. So I just try and go 265 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,680 S1: back to basics and then spend time doing things that 266 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,880 S1: you like. I just happened to turn the thing that 267 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,440 S1: I love doing as a hobby into my job. So 268 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,320 S1: I've got to find a way to sort of show 269 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480 S1: up as two different people sometimes. 270 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,200 S2: Do you read your press or your social media or not? 271 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,520 S2: And I'm noting that it doesn't have to be about 272 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,600 S2: you personally, but do you do you engage in what 273 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,000 S2: is being said about the decision making or the AFL 274 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,800 S2: Commission or the game, given the the scope of the commentary, 275 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,840 S2: or do you try and switch off from it altogether? 276 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,360 S1: No, you definitely do. We have processes in place here. 277 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,200 S1: We need to know what people think. We need to 278 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,350 S1: know what the sentiment is. Um, we do a lot 279 00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:35,990 S1: of public media, and to ensure that we're not walking 280 00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:38,630 S1: into questions or conversations that we're not aware of. You 281 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:41,670 S1: have to stay up to date with, um, what's going on. 282 00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:44,910 S1: So we have processes here to make sure we see 283 00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:48,470 S1: what's most relevant and important to us. I don't often 284 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:51,910 S1: engage in the comment section of social media, and I'm. 285 00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:54,990 S1: I have a very small profile on social media and 286 00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:57,270 S1: that's on purpose. And that's just to not get caught 287 00:15:57,270 --> 00:16:00,230 S1: up in the sort of the comments and the, the, 288 00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:03,550 S1: the loop that can sort of occur there, but absolutely 289 00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:06,910 S1: take notice of what's being said and how people feel. 290 00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:08,990 S1: And you know, what they're asking us to do. But 291 00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:12,750 S1: I also engage in different types of media. Uh, our, 292 00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:17,030 S1: our fan channels, our, let's call it new age media 293 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:21,310 S1: on social media, we have enormous followings on their Instagram 294 00:16:21,310 --> 00:16:24,630 S1: or their TikTok accounts. And they, they talk about different 295 00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:27,310 S1: things too. So I try to try to stay up 296 00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:30,070 S1: to date with both the more traditional media and then 297 00:16:30,110 --> 00:16:34,270 S1: also what's happening sort of on the ground, if you like. And, 298 00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:37,830 S1: and sometimes their views are the same and sometimes they're not. So. Yeah, 299 00:16:37,870 --> 00:16:40,670 S1: I definitely engage in it. I just, um, I probably 300 00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:43,550 S1: keep a low profile from a social media perspective and 301 00:16:43,550 --> 00:16:46,150 S1: just have my, my close friends on that. 302 00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:49,950 S2: Tell me whenever you go into a new job or 303 00:16:49,950 --> 00:16:52,510 S2: into a, into a new team, is there a sort 304 00:16:52,510 --> 00:16:55,750 S2: of a culture that bothers you? Is there sort of like, 305 00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:59,350 S2: you know, a habit of, uh, of, of teams that 306 00:16:59,350 --> 00:17:02,030 S2: you kind of go not on my watch. That really 307 00:17:02,030 --> 00:17:04,429 S2: irks me and I'm going to stamp it out. 308 00:17:05,190 --> 00:17:08,630 S1: Yeah. I mean, it's probably not a cultural piece. It's 309 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:11,830 S1: probably more a way of working, which I appreciate can 310 00:17:11,830 --> 00:17:15,189 S1: turn into culture, but I really like working in a 311 00:17:15,190 --> 00:17:20,270 S1: collaborative environment. So learning that from clubland where you have 312 00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:22,950 S1: no choice, you are a team and you rely on 313 00:17:22,950 --> 00:17:25,670 S1: each other and you play different roles, all of you 314 00:17:25,670 --> 00:17:28,030 S1: on the field, off the field. But by virtue of 315 00:17:28,030 --> 00:17:33,419 S1: my role here across AFL health and football operations, we. 316 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:38,060 S1: We impact everyone. Our decisions impact everyone. And so siloed 317 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:42,060 S1: operating is is just not my my style that I 318 00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:45,859 S1: don't like. And I like consistency. I, you know, people 319 00:17:45,859 --> 00:17:47,699 S1: rely on us as leaders to show up in a 320 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:51,460 S1: particular way. And I say often be really consistent in 321 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:53,619 S1: the way that you show up and your style and 322 00:17:53,619 --> 00:17:56,740 S1: make sure people know what to expect from you as 323 00:17:56,740 --> 00:18:00,180 S1: a person, from Laura the leader, but be inconsistent in 324 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:04,020 S1: your ideas and in the best way possible. Bring different ideas. 325 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:08,700 S1: Don't always just say the same thing. Think about different things. Read, learn, 326 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,380 S1: and so inconsistent in a positive way because it's usually 327 00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:16,500 S1: meant negatively, which I understand the definition of. But be 328 00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:20,740 S1: be really bold and different in your thinking and create 329 00:18:20,740 --> 00:18:22,859 S1: that feeling in a meeting where people say, oh, I 330 00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:25,379 S1: haven't thought about that, or where did they learn that 331 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:29,020 S1: from or that source that you're, you know, you're progressive 332 00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:30,900 S1: and you're different and you're not just going to come 333 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,660 S1: with the same ideas every single day. 334 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:36,580 S2: And do you take responsibility for being the person with 335 00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:39,260 S2: the bold ideas, or do you take responsibility for creating 336 00:18:39,260 --> 00:18:42,060 S2: the environment for people to come forward with ideas? 337 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:45,860 S1: Both. Both. I think I don't have all of the ideas. 338 00:18:45,859 --> 00:18:48,540 S1: I don't have all of the bold ideas, and I'm 339 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:52,260 S1: very purposeful in the team that I set up around me. 340 00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:55,100 S1: I need people that are better than me, and I 341 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:59,220 S1: need people that, uh, think differently and are creative. And 342 00:18:59,220 --> 00:19:04,180 S1: we have everything from healthcare experts in my team to 343 00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:08,859 S1: football operations, business leaders, creatives, marketing. I've got a really 344 00:19:08,859 --> 00:19:11,260 S1: broad mix of direct reports, if I think about it 345 00:19:11,260 --> 00:19:15,660 S1: just like that. Um, and that's, that's on purpose because, uh, 346 00:19:15,660 --> 00:19:17,620 S1: you know, I don't have all of those skills. No 347 00:19:17,619 --> 00:19:20,020 S1: one can have all of those skills. So for me, 348 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:22,979 S1: it's about setting up a team, um, that are different 349 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:25,609 S1: to me, but all driven by the same goal. So 350 00:19:25,609 --> 00:19:27,890 S1: but but yeah, occasionally I need to come up with 351 00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:28,730 S1: a bold idea. 352 00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:32,290 S2: Um, talk to me about consistency then. Does that come 353 00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:36,290 S2: naturally to you? Or is that something that you've evolved 354 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:39,090 S2: or worked on because you've believed that gets the best 355 00:19:39,090 --> 00:19:41,330 S2: out of people? Um, I think it's. 356 00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:44,330 S1: A bit of a mix. I think often if, if I, 357 00:19:44,369 --> 00:19:48,010 S1: if people are describing me, they'll, they'll talk about, you know, 358 00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:51,450 S1: that I'm pragmatic and calm. And I think that actually 359 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:54,530 S1: is consistency. It's that you, you're showing up in a 360 00:19:54,530 --> 00:19:59,210 S1: particular way that's measured in the same and predictable. So 361 00:19:59,490 --> 00:20:04,210 S1: I think for me, it's important to, to try and 362 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:08,889 S1: create an environment that people feel safe in and safe. 363 00:20:09,050 --> 00:20:13,050 S1: I mean, safe for, um, those bold ideas sometimes to 364 00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:16,370 S1: be shut down or those bold ideas sometimes to not 365 00:20:16,369 --> 00:20:19,210 S1: be so bold or liked. And sometimes the opposite is 366 00:20:19,210 --> 00:20:21,250 S1: true that people love them, but you have to create 367 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:26,090 S1: a safety in that. But I've also that's learned behavior too. 368 00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:28,010 S1: You know, in my, in my first job as a 369 00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:32,290 S1: personal injury lawyer, I was listening to some of the hardest, 370 00:20:32,290 --> 00:20:36,850 S1: most personal stories and often with people that were highly 371 00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:40,330 S1: distressed and rightly so. It was really important for me 372 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:44,090 S1: to be calm and, and absorb that stress, not not 373 00:20:44,090 --> 00:20:47,730 S1: add to it. So that's sort of a learning that 374 00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:50,409 S1: you have. And then I go to the North Melbourne 375 00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:54,730 S1: Football Club and you're literally winning and losing, um, each week. Um, 376 00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:57,889 S1: we had a lot of change from a leadership perspective. 377 00:20:57,890 --> 00:20:59,930 S1: And then we had Covid and I was in the 378 00:20:59,930 --> 00:21:03,210 S1: hub for the better part of 100 days going thinking 379 00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:05,929 S1: we were going for two weeks. So I was forced 380 00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:09,770 S1: to find a way to respond and show up consistently, 381 00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:12,290 S1: even though there was change. And even though we had, 382 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:14,850 S1: there was, you know, things happening around us that we 383 00:21:14,850 --> 00:21:18,970 S1: couldn't control, which I know applied to everyone. But you 384 00:21:18,970 --> 00:21:21,720 S1: just learn how to. How do you create a steadiness 385 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,040 S1: in the in the chaos? 386 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,880 S2: So Laura, who's made a difficult decision that's gone down well, uh, 387 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,680 S2: in that all of those blogs and in every media 388 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,439 S2: commentary and every AM radio station and Laura, who's made 389 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,840 S2: a decision that's gone down really badly and is, you know, 390 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,200 S2: the subject of all manner of commentary. Are they different 391 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,480 S2: people when you come into work the next day, or 392 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,840 S2: are you the same person? 393 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,200 S1: Oh, I'm the same person. I was just about to say, 394 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,720 S1: if you can find one of those really positive blogs, 395 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,320 S1: I'll jump online and start reading comments. But no, I'm 396 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,440 S1: the same person and you learn every time you make 397 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,720 S1: a decision. And it's not that I, um, I it's 398 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,800 S1: I'm the same person. I'm the same Laura that turns 399 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,960 S1: up to work every day. But I'm thinking about the response, 400 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,080 S1: the reaction, um, what happened there? What could we have 401 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,640 S1: done better? Was it me? Was it others in my team? 402 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,520 S1: How can I help people, um, make different, better, faster responses? 403 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,800 S1: Or how can we actually reflect on because what we 404 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,760 S1: don't often do is stop and say, hey, we did 405 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,440 S1: a pretty good job there. That was pretty good. That 406 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,840 S1: was a really good contribution and see how that all 407 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,080 S1: played out. That's how we want things to land or 408 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,640 S1: that's how we want to make decisions. And so it's 409 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,720 S1: also celebrating the wins. And we can so quickly rush 410 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,040 S1: to the things that we need to improve and, and 411 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,439 S1: do better. But sometimes you don't see the, the benefit 412 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,240 S1: until years later. And the end of last year, the 413 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,360 S1: very last round of the year, sitting at the MCG, 414 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,560 S1: watching our two female boundary umpires debut as the first 415 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,720 S1: ever women to be boundary umpires in men's games. I 416 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,720 S1: stopped and I thought, this is pretty cool and this 417 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240 S1: took years, this took years and years and years. And 418 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,200 S1: so sometimes we zoom past those, those moments really quickly. 419 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,280 S1: And I think at every single time I walk into 420 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,800 S1: an AFL game, we have 540 women playing across all 421 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 S1: of our 18 clubs. We're the largest employer of female 422 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,670 S1: athletes in the country, and every time I walk through 423 00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:21,630 S1: the gates of Icon Park or Henson Park or Springfield 424 00:23:21,630 --> 00:23:24,909 S1: or Alberton, and in particular, when I see little boys 425 00:23:24,910 --> 00:23:27,949 S1: with W jumpers on, I just think sometimes we've got 426 00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:30,310 S1: to stop and say, hey, this is good. We've done 427 00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:32,870 S1: a good job here. Um, we as a collective. 428 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:36,830 S2: Yeah, I, um, I, I agree. When you see little 429 00:23:36,869 --> 00:23:41,670 S2: boys with their favorite female sports star, it's pretty, it's a, 430 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:43,030 S2: and I think I've made that point a couple of 431 00:23:43,030 --> 00:23:45,510 S2: times in this podcast. You know, never in my lifetime 432 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:49,150 S2: did I think women would be getting bigger ratings than 433 00:23:49,190 --> 00:24:04,230 S2: men in sports. What's the best piece of feedback you've 434 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:05,470 S2: received in your career? 435 00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:09,230 S1: Ah, this is a hard one because I've received so 436 00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:12,510 S1: many little one liners. I write them down too. So 437 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:15,270 S1: you should do that. Um, I have a note section 438 00:24:15,270 --> 00:24:18,020 S1: in my phone where I write little one liners down 439 00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:22,020 S1: so I don't forget them. Someone, someone who was a 440 00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:25,340 S1: leader of mine, said the doctor, is one thing, but 441 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:29,300 S1: the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming and I always think about 442 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,340 S1: it that sometimes, um, even though computer says yes, people 443 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:36,500 S1: might say no. And even though something is supported by 444 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:39,380 S1: numbers and data, how people feel or the way that 445 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:42,580 S1: a decision makes them feel is as important as what 446 00:24:42,580 --> 00:24:46,380 S1: the numbers say. And so sometimes in, in, you know, 447 00:24:46,540 --> 00:24:50,620 S1: to be ambitious, um, and, and have certainty in something 448 00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:54,380 S1: can very easily be supported by data and numbers and 449 00:24:54,380 --> 00:24:57,420 S1: facts and figures. Um, but sometimes people don't feel good 450 00:24:57,420 --> 00:25:00,940 S1: about it. So I always think about that when we're 451 00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:05,060 S1: looking at spreadsheets and data and numbers and you know, it, 452 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:07,780 S1: it might be screaming off the page that it needs 453 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:10,020 S1: to be changed or the right thing to do. But, 454 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:11,980 S1: but you might have to slow down to, to get 455 00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:14,220 S1: to the right answer because it won't make people feel good. 456 00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:16,100 S2: You know, I always think about that in the context 457 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:21,020 S2: of an HR problem. And HR processes are designed after 458 00:25:21,020 --> 00:25:24,260 S2: years and years and years of perfecting something. And so 459 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:27,660 S2: there is this system, but it actually never applies to 460 00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:32,899 S2: individual personalities and almost always makes everyone in the process 461 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:37,420 S2: feel worse. And I think about that quite often. Um, 462 00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:40,260 S2: I'm a bit interested because I've been hearing a little 463 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:44,740 S2: bit about how artificial intelligence is starting to be viewed 464 00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:49,300 S2: in AFL. How's it looking from your vantage point? 465 00:25:49,740 --> 00:25:53,020 S1: Yeah, it's really good. So speaking of strong female leaders, 466 00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:57,660 S1: Becca is our AGM of customer commercial and technology and 467 00:25:57,660 --> 00:26:01,060 S1: she's come to us from TV. Um, and was working 468 00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:05,340 S1: on the Olympics. And she is amazing. And she has 469 00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:08,659 S1: taught me so many things about AI and the opportunities 470 00:26:08,660 --> 00:26:12,020 S1: from a footy perspective. We've, we've been talking about AI 471 00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:15,530 S1: for a number of years, that optical tracking or ball 472 00:26:15,530 --> 00:26:19,290 S1: chip technology or how we can use predictive modeling or 473 00:26:19,290 --> 00:26:22,930 S1: AI just to help code our games. Just, just so 474 00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:25,570 S1: many different ways. So, you know, I was lucky enough 475 00:26:25,570 --> 00:26:27,369 S1: a couple of years ago to spend some time over 476 00:26:27,369 --> 00:26:30,610 S1: in the States and to see how they're using AI 477 00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:33,489 S1: as it relates to injury prevention and management and the 478 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:37,169 S1: physical movement of players. And looking at, you know, the 479 00:26:37,170 --> 00:26:41,890 S1: way that technology could support our efforts in concussion or 480 00:26:41,890 --> 00:26:46,010 S1: other physical injuries is something that we're, you know, always 481 00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:48,410 S1: looking at and learning about. So I've learned so much 482 00:26:48,410 --> 00:26:52,490 S1: about technology and what AI could do and is doing 483 00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:56,290 S1: for our game. And, you know, it's, it's not going anywhere. 484 00:26:56,290 --> 00:26:59,810 S1: It's not going away. So it's just finding that balance 485 00:26:59,810 --> 00:27:03,650 S1: between the computer and the person. And how do we 486 00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:07,810 S1: help people do their jobs better? Um, with, with technology, 487 00:27:07,810 --> 00:27:09,410 S1: that's what we're looking at at the AFL. 488 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:13,650 S2: Anyone who's followed the F.W. brand for a while will know. 489 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:17,330 S2: The big hugs left the board of F.W. Laura to 490 00:27:17,369 --> 00:27:19,850 S2: join the AFL. So I know, I know what a 491 00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:24,810 S2: what a talent, what a talent she is. Any advice 492 00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:29,250 S2: for young female leaders listening today who have kind of 493 00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:32,850 S2: admired what you've achieved so far? And clearly you've got 494 00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:35,330 S2: much more to give, but are interested to hear a 495 00:27:35,330 --> 00:27:36,609 S2: little bit about your journey. 496 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:40,490 S1: Yeah. So the number one thing, when I speak to 497 00:27:40,530 --> 00:27:43,570 S1: young female leaders that they talk to me about or 498 00:27:43,570 --> 00:27:46,130 S1: ask me questions about is they don't want to ask 499 00:27:46,170 --> 00:27:50,330 S1: a silly question, just ask the silly question because it's 500 00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:53,929 S1: not silly because if you're thinking it, you are just 501 00:27:53,930 --> 00:27:58,369 S1: like the young or more senior male leaders that they 502 00:27:58,369 --> 00:28:01,970 S1: are thinking about different things in the context of your meeting, 503 00:28:01,970 --> 00:28:05,010 S1: your decision, your plan, whatever it is. And most of 504 00:28:05,010 --> 00:28:07,129 S1: the time someone else has thought about that question. So 505 00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:10,720 S1: just ask it. Skirt. Invite yourself to things. I invite 506 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,119 S1: myself everywhere. People aren't thinking about inviting you to things, 507 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,879 S1: and they most certainly aren't purposefully thinking about leaving you 508 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,600 S1: out of things. So just just ask, can I come 509 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,240 S1: to that? Can I? Can I join that? Can I? Siti, 510 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,600 S1: can I do this? And the worst thing that could 511 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,080 S1: happen is that they say no, and that's not very bad. 512 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,479 S1: So just ask and push yourself forward. And then the 513 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,600 S1: last thing for me is if you're in a position 514 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,719 S1: where you are at the table, so to speak, don't change, 515 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,120 S1: don't don't turn into everybody else at the table because 516 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,160 S1: you're there to be different. And most, most of the time, 517 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,400 S1: the organization wants you to be different and to, to 518 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,800 S1: provide them with a diverse range of thinking and skill 519 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,800 S1: sets and ideas. And I just watch sometimes people try 520 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,320 S1: to women and young female leaders try to turn into 521 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,680 S1: or mimic the people around them. And if and if 522 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,440 S1: they are men or, you know, young up and coming 523 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,640 S1: male leaders, they have unbelievably good qualities too. And so 524 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,719 S1: imagine what a team would look like if we all 525 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,480 S1: bought different things to the table and we stayed true 526 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,640 S1: to ourselves. So you use much less energy being yourself. 527 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,960 S2: Have you ever been invited yourself to things and been 528 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,600 S2: told no? Hardly ever. I would have thought so. It's 529 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,160 S2: just such a great piece of advice. It's an excellent 530 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,719 S2: piece of advice. Invite yourself to things. Um, okay. I 531 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,840 S2: promise it's going to finish on a question, and I 532 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,160 S2: acknowledge that you're going to have two answers. Most likely 533 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,560 S2: an AFL player and an AFL player. Uh, so I 534 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,600 S2: know you've already figured that out. Tell me your favorite 535 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,840 S2: AFL player to watch. 536 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,160 S1: I was thinking about that the whole time we were 537 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,000 S1: doing the interviews. I was thinking, what position am I 538 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,880 S1: going to go for? Who am I going to say? 539 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,360 S1: That's very mean of me, isn't it? 540 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,360 S2: It's mean of me to actually do that to you. 541 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:56,240 S2: That's good. 542 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,959 S1: Jake Waterman from West Coast is my favorite male player. Uh, 543 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,040 S1: and my favorite. I think you're going to ask me 544 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,190 S1: my favorite female player is Emma Kaany. 545 00:30:06,670 --> 00:30:10,230 S2: Awesome way to end this podcast. Uh, Laura Kane, congratulations 546 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:14,830 S2: on your spectacular career. Best of luck with the season 547 00:30:14,830 --> 00:30:18,870 S2: this year, particularly AFL season. Thank you for making the 548 00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:20,150 S2: time to talk to me today. 549 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:22,190 S1: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 550 00:30:34,670 --> 00:30:38,190 S3: So we've had someone who manages a lot of Gen 551 00:30:38,190 --> 00:30:42,350 S3: Z staff members right in. They say that they're struggling 552 00:30:42,390 --> 00:30:45,469 S3: to have their Gen Z staff speak up at meetings, 553 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:48,630 S3: and they want to know if you have any tips 554 00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:51,790 S3: or advice on how to motivate these early career team 555 00:30:51,790 --> 00:30:53,990 S3: members to bring their ideas to the table. 556 00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,469 S2: Really interesting question. I think probably I'm more interested in 557 00:30:57,470 --> 00:31:00,230 S2: your answers than than mine, Odessa, but I'm going to 558 00:31:00,230 --> 00:31:03,950 S2: talk from experience. F w we have a morning meeting 559 00:31:03,950 --> 00:31:07,510 S2: every day. It's 15 minutes. It's on screen. Everyone's expected 560 00:31:07,510 --> 00:31:10,350 S2: to turn up, and everyone knows that they could be 561 00:31:10,350 --> 00:31:13,230 S2: asked at any time to talk about what their priorities 562 00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:16,630 S2: are for the day or the week, or on a Friday. Um, 563 00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:19,630 S2: and this might be helpful to anyone who's struggling with this. 564 00:31:19,670 --> 00:31:21,430 S2: We asked them what their win of the week was, 565 00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:23,510 S2: or if they want to acknowledge someone in the, in 566 00:31:23,550 --> 00:31:25,710 S2: the team that has gone out of their way to 567 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:28,710 S2: help them. So I find that if you set up 568 00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:31,830 S2: a formal arrangement where coming off mute or being asked 569 00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:35,070 S2: to speak in a team meeting, that is pretty light, 570 00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:39,470 S2: touch is a great way to get young female future 571 00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:44,030 S2: leaders to get comfortable with the idea of using their 572 00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:47,870 S2: voice in a work setting. But I do acknowledge that 573 00:31:47,870 --> 00:31:49,910 S2: this is a this is a tough area. You know, 574 00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:52,990 S2: I often talk, as you know, that when I say, hey, Odessa, 575 00:31:53,030 --> 00:31:57,030 S2: can you give so-and-so a call? The Gen Z staff 576 00:31:57,030 --> 00:32:00,030 S2: member will think, I'm not saying you will think, oh, sure, 577 00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:02,700 S2: I'll just send them a quick email. And I think 578 00:32:02,740 --> 00:32:04,780 S2: you've actually picked up the phone and actually you've sent 579 00:32:04,780 --> 00:32:08,140 S2: an email. So it is a constant challenge, I think, 580 00:32:08,140 --> 00:32:14,100 S2: for leaders in their late 50s and beyond to relate 581 00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:18,100 S2: to Gen Z future leaders. But perhaps you might be 582 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,500 S2: able to answer that question more accurately. 583 00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:24,500 S3: I think this might seem like I'm stating the obvious 584 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,740 S3: a bit, but every young Gen Z staff member is different. 585 00:32:28,260 --> 00:32:33,220 S3: And so for some, doing those regular low stakes opportunities 586 00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:38,780 S3: is excellent and having positive feedback, positive reinforcement. I think 587 00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:42,300 S3: some as well can benefit a bit from being thrown 588 00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,540 S3: into the deep end. I think I did earlier on 589 00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:48,660 S3: in my career, I was in a news environment where 590 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:53,700 S3: to pitch articles regularly in every morning meeting and I 591 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:59,940 S3: learnt from that. And I think also creating a space 592 00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:02,660 S3: where they can see the meaning of their work and 593 00:33:02,660 --> 00:33:05,500 S3: not just feel like they're being made to give a 594 00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:06,820 S3: point for the sake of it. 595 00:33:07,260 --> 00:33:11,380 S2: So in summary, what we're saying is find ways for 596 00:33:11,380 --> 00:33:16,260 S2: them to talk that is incidental. Feel like incidental exercise. 597 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,820 S2: Give them opportunities to speak about their weekend, something that 598 00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:23,620 S2: has gone well for them, and get used to using 599 00:33:23,660 --> 00:33:26,420 S2: their voice. Make sure you create an environment where the 600 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:29,739 S2: Gen Z worldview is actually encouraged. Like we want to 601 00:33:29,740 --> 00:33:33,739 S2: hear what they have to say. And you make the 602 00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:36,780 S2: point that no two Gen Z employees are the same. 603 00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:38,740 S3: So some love a phone call. 604 00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:41,380 S2: Some love a phone call. Don't. Do they really love 605 00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:41,940 S2: phone call? 606 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:43,780 S3: I prefer phone call. 607 00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:44,380 S2: Yeah, yeah. 608 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:46,500 S3: That's definitely okay. 609 00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:48,700 S2: I get terrified ringing people these days. 610 00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:50,300 S3: We usually just get voicemail. 611 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:52,780 S2: Yeah that's right, that's right. I just hang up. 612 00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:08,170 S3: So we've had a new manager write in with little 613 00:34:08,170 --> 00:34:12,450 S3: supervising experience. They have an employee who is burnt out. 614 00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:15,730 S3: They say this employee constantly says they're too much on 615 00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:19,370 S3: their plate, but they seem reluctant to delegate or share 616 00:34:19,370 --> 00:34:22,529 S3: the load. They say they've given them advice and time 617 00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:26,129 S3: management skills and how to better plan tasks and projects, 618 00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:29,410 S3: but they don't take it. Do you have any tips, Helen, 619 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:30,969 S3: for what they should do next? 620 00:34:31,370 --> 00:34:33,690 S2: Yes I do. They don't get to call the shots. 621 00:34:33,890 --> 00:34:35,810 S2: You actually have a duty of care if if they're 622 00:34:35,810 --> 00:34:39,450 S2: constantly telling you about burnout. So I would recommend delegate 623 00:34:39,450 --> 00:34:42,049 S2: for them. Ask questions to try and find out what 624 00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:45,930 S2: is behind this attitude. I've talked in other episodes about 625 00:34:45,930 --> 00:34:49,489 S2: martyrs in the workplace and how to manage a workplace martyr, 626 00:34:49,489 --> 00:34:52,370 S2: but have a sit down and an honest conversation and 627 00:34:52,370 --> 00:34:55,490 S2: get them to open up as to what is going on. 628 00:34:56,210 --> 00:35:00,649 S2: See what is the underlying fear or or perfectionism. This 629 00:35:00,650 --> 00:35:03,810 S2: does sound like someone who might suffer from perfectionism, but 630 00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:06,850 S2: it could also be understaffing. So you might have an 631 00:35:06,850 --> 00:35:10,810 S2: issue in that particular area of the organization. And also, 632 00:35:11,090 --> 00:35:12,730 S2: is it, you know, you might just be a fear 633 00:35:12,730 --> 00:35:15,850 S2: of missing targets and you the targets might have been 634 00:35:15,890 --> 00:35:19,250 S2: ambitious targets or might not be as relevant to the 635 00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:21,370 S2: business as they think they are. So you could shift 636 00:35:21,370 --> 00:35:24,009 S2: the targets and make simple changes to make that employee's 637 00:35:24,010 --> 00:35:28,450 S2: life easier. In short, have a have a heart to heart. 638 00:35:28,489 --> 00:35:35,649 S2: Have a chat to them. This podcast was recorded on 639 00:35:35,650 --> 00:35:38,290 S2: the lands of the Gadigal people of the Aurora nation. 640 00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:41,650 S2: It was produced by Odessa Blain, Susan Warby and led 641 00:35:41,650 --> 00:35:42,730 S2: by Paddy Andrews.