S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
S1: May 13th. The Pope may seem like a distant figure,
S1: but the newest one has wasted no time making waves.
S1: It's not just the social media posts riffing on what
S1: vibe a pope who originally hails from the South Side
S1: of Chicago might bring to the Vatican. Because even before
S1: Pope Leo the 14th slid that papal ring on his
S1: finger on Friday, he launched something of an attack on
S1: American Vice President J.D. Vance, angering many within the MAGA movement.
S1: And in Australia, many Catholics have already begun questioning how
S1: the pope's personal views will impact our churches and even
S1: school curricula. Today, chief reporter Jordan Baker, on what we
S1: can expect from Pope Leo the 14th and whether he
S1: may or may not intervene in our local religious stashes,
S1: as the Vatican has done in the past. So, Jordan,
S1: we have a new pope. So tell me, who is
S1: Pope Leo the 14th and why is he perhaps something
S1: of a controversial choice?
S2: So he's an American, which is very interesting in and
S2: of itself. Generally, people have thought that Americans have effectively
S2: been out of contention because America was powerful enough already.
S2: You know, like the president was effectively the leader of
S2: the free world. And I think there was always a
S2: reluctance to, you know, have that A12 act with the
S2: Pope as well. And there's also there's traditionally been like
S2: a European dominance with the Pope, particularly Italians. So this
S2: is a highly unusual choice. But it says a lot,
S2: I think, about some of the broader issues that the
S2: church at the moment and some of the geopolitical issues
S2: that the pope is going to have to navigate during
S2: his time as the infallible leader of the Catholic Church.
S3: Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost has chosen the name.
S4: Con tutti voi.
S2: So short biography of Pope Leo the 14th. He was
S2: born in Chicago. He is from the Order of Saint Augustine.
S2: He's got a Bachelor of Science in mathematics, which has
S2: led to quite a few jokes about how he's not
S2: just interested in sin, but also cos, which is a
S2: calculus joke. And he spent a long time in Peru
S2: working as a missionary. So he has multiple languages under
S2: his belt. He's seen as not just an American cardinal
S2: because of his experience in Latin America.
S5: Clear message of peace coming from Pope Leo the 14th.
S5: On his first address, He called for an end to
S5: all wars across the world, and he specifically mentioned the
S5: war in Ukraine.
S2: So he's seen as a sort of person who can
S2: bridge the developing world with the developed world of the church.
S2: And there's this sense, too, that the church is growing
S2: most in the developing world. So it really needs to
S2: be represented in the Vatican.
S1: And so tell us, what else do we know, I guess,
S1: about Pope Leo and whether he leans progressive or whether
S1: he leans conservative, because obviously there was so much discussion. Okay.
S1: Is he going to follow in Pope Francis's footsteps? He
S1: was considered, I think, you know, significantly progressive in many ways.
S1: So just tell me a bit about where he stands
S1: on other issues, whether it's same sex marriage or abortion.
S2: So when you look at where the Cardinal Robert Francis
S2: Prevost stood before he was elected pope, we can see
S2: that he is against ordaining female deacons. Cons. It's not
S2: really clear on what he thinks of blessing same sex couples,
S2: but he's in favor of promoting a synodal church. And effectively,
S2: what that means is it's this sense of how the
S2: church interacts with the rest of the world. And this
S2: was a big progressive Conservative split. And again, the thing
S2: about progressive and conservative in the Catholic Church, I mean,
S2: the teaching is the teaching, right? Like, you know, the
S2: sanctity of life is the teaching. So when people are
S2: perceived as progressive or conservative, it's often about what they
S2: the issues that they see as a priority within that
S2: particular topic area. So some people are very much see
S2: the priority is to fight abortion. Others might say the
S2: priority is, you know, human dignity for people like refugees, etc., etc., etc..
S6: Now he has used his social media to share views
S6: on immigration and racism, and he has also been critical
S6: of Vice President JD Vance Online. The new Pope reposted
S6: an article titled J.D. Vance is Wrong. Jesus doesn't ask
S6: us to rank our love for others.
S2: And with a sense of how the church interacts in
S2: the world, there is this debate between sort of sitting
S2: there and going, well, this is what we think. Like
S2: us or love, you know, lump us, you know, a
S2: more kind of outreach perspective going, you know, we we
S2: welcome the, you know, fallen and the sinners. And, you know,
S2: we're not going to sit here and judge you. Please
S2: come in and join us. So it seems according to
S2: this anyway, that that Cardinal Provost before he became pope,
S2: was a strong supporter of synodality, which is a process
S2: that Francis began. So it looks like he will continue
S2: Francis's work there.
S1: And I really want to ask you about, I guess,
S1: what impact this new pope might have on us here
S1: in Australia, because, you know, we've all just seen the
S1: pomp and ceremony in Rome. It seems an absolute world
S1: away from our lives here on the streets of our cities.
S1: But the Pope does actually have a fair bit of
S1: influence here. So tell us about that.
S2: I mean, the thing about the Catholic Church is that
S2: it's not like a parliament or even the Anglicans. The
S2: Anglicans actually publish a lot of information about from their
S2: various kind of meetings and that sort of stuff. And
S2: the Catholics are just not like that at all. So
S2: everything is very secretive, you know, very kind of. It's
S2: a lot of reading the tea leaves about where the,
S2: the Vatican kind of reaches into the Australian world. But
S2: there's a couple of elements where the Pope is quite important.
S2: One of them is the choice of bishops and cardinals.
S2: But the other thing that the Vatican does is it
S2: keeps a very close eye on our schools and universities. Now,
S2: Australia is an absolute world outlier in the way that
S2: it publicly Funds, religious schools and universities. So basically the
S2: Australian Catholic University students are publicly funded. But, you know,
S2: the government is paying a lot of their fees. Similarly,
S2: with the Catholic diocesan schools, these are schools that are
S2: run by the various dioceses, but also the Catholic congregational schools.
S2: And these are schools that are run by the various
S2: orders like the Marists, the Augustines, Pope Leo and Augustine.
S2: They get a significant amount of public funding. So the
S2: Vatican loves this. It really sees this as a, you know,
S2: a global plan for what they would love to see
S2: in other countries, but they also keep a very close
S2: eye on it to make sure that everything's going well
S2: and that that, you know, that, that what is being
S2: taught in these publicly funded Catholic schools is very much what,
S2: you know, the Catholic Church would want to teach. So
S2: occasionally we have had situations in which there have been
S2: complaints to the Vatican Him dicastery for education over what
S2: is going on in Australian schools and universities. In the
S2: last few years, we've had two quite controversial examples of those.
S1: I mean, I'll never forget the article you wrote about
S1: the the walkout, the very scandalous walkout that took place
S1: at Australian Catholic University. This was last year, and I
S1: think there was some intervention from the Vatican. So tell
S1: us what happened there.
S2: Late last year, there was a gentleman called Joe de Bruyn,
S2: who was a former Australian MP and former a very
S2: significant union leader in the shop workers union, who basically
S2: gave a resoundingly pro-life speech at the end of a
S2: graduation at ACU.
S7: So as to endorse same sex marriage.
S2: Now, remember that ACU is a Catholic university, but it
S2: is publicly funded, and a lot of the students who
S2: go there do not go there because it's Catholic or
S2: that they're Catholic. They go there because it's a publicly
S2: funded university at which they can get a degree. And
S2: I see you as very big, particularly on teaching and
S2: nursing degrees. So there's a lot of women. So this
S2: speech did not go down well with a lot of
S2: people who were graduating that day and their families. And
S2: there was a one.
S8: By one students and staff rose to their feet filing
S8: out of their graduation ceremony hijacked by an anti-abortion speech.
S9: This was meant to be a celebration and that was
S9: taken away.
S2: Now, this set the cat among the pigeons. You know,
S2: you then had a situation in which it created a
S2: sort of momentum and lots of, you know, people sort
S2: of saying, well, is is the Australian Catholic University Catholic enough?
S2: And then you had the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, Anthony Fisher,
S2: write to the Dicastery of Education in the Vatican saying, look,
S2: we think you guys should investigate this. Me and my
S2: Melbourne counterpart think that, you know, it's time for the
S2: dicastery to have a look at what's going on at
S2: ACU because we're concerned there were some very senior Catholic
S2: lawyers who put out a joint letter saying that, you know,
S2: perhaps they should consider taking the Catholic designation out of
S2: the Australian Catholic University if it wasn't Catholic enough. But
S2: of course, the dicastery from the Vatican does not put
S2: out a press release saying that it is investigating Aicu.
S2: So we don't really know if it has or not.
S2: Some people say that the vice chancellor of ACU was
S2: brought over to Rome in November for some meetings. The
S2: ACU management says that that just happens all the time.
S2: They routinely meet the people from the dicastery a few
S2: times a year.
S1: We'll be right back. Now, I know you have reported
S1: a lot in the education space. And also, you know,
S1: in the space of the Catholic Church, are many parents
S1: sort of upset that what their children are being taught
S1: really is, you know, it is so changeable and so
S1: opaque in terms of what's being done, I guess, about
S1: the curricula. It's sort of so out of their hands. Like,
S1: is this something that parents express frustration about?
S2: I mean, the thing is, the thing about parents is
S2: that there's never one view.
S1: Yes.
S2: And oftentimes, particularly in independent Catholic schools, a lot of
S2: people choose independent high schools for their children, be they
S2: Catholic or Anglican, on the prestige of the school and
S2: the educational offerings it has, and kind of don't quite
S2: think about the fact that these are religious schools, and
S2: they get a bit of a shock when these religious
S2: schools start asserting their religious viewpoints. This was particularly an
S2: issue in the Anglican churches a few years ago where
S2: the Anglican, the Anglican Synod basically said that they wanted
S2: the principals of these schools and the chairs of the
S2: board to affirm that they believe that marriage was between
S2: a man and a woman and a lot of parents like, well,
S2: wait a minute. What? You know, we don't believe that.
S2: And it's like, well, yeah, you might not, but this
S2: isn't Anglican school effectively run by the Anglican Church.
S1: You might want.
S2: To.
S1: Read the fine print. The not so fine print.
S2: Buyer beware when you're sending your kid to a religious school.
S1: And I believe the Vatican also got involved in something
S1: of a small town matter at a Parramatta religious school
S1: in Sydney. Right?
S2: There was a complaint to the Vatican by some parents.
S2: Now Parramatta is a huge melting pot, as we know
S2: in Sydney. Right. You've got. And that is no different
S2: in terms of religion. So you've got some Maronite Catholics
S2: who are quite sort of conservative Catholics. You've got, you know,
S2: quite progressive Catholics. Vincent Long is quite a progressive bishop.
S2: He was appointed by Pope Francis. He himself is a
S2: refugee from Vietnam. He himself was a victim of clergy
S2: abuse as an adult. So, you know, he very much
S2: understands some of these issues from a personal perspective. So
S2: you've got a very, very wide range of viewpoints there.
S2: And a few years ago there were two things that
S2: came up as issues, which kind of got conflated in
S2: terms of the complaints to the Vatican. One was Mark Latham,
S2: who was then a One Nation MP in the New
S2: South Wales upper house, put forward a bill to prohibit
S2: the promotion of gender fluidity in schools. And this went
S2: to a committee, but the Parramatta Education Office opposed the
S2: bill in a submission, basically saying look, this is going
S2: to subject LGBTQ students to harassment and it's going to
S2: be an unacceptable incursion into the schools professional judgement. Now,
S2: that upset a lot of much more conservative Catholics in
S2: the Parramatta district. The other issue was a religious education curriculum,
S2: which was unveiled in mid 2020 and basically said it
S2: would teach students about different sexual identities, it would teach
S2: them about atheism and would teach them about social media relationships.
S2: And again, some parents in the Catholic dioceses got upset
S2: about that, and they were like, why send our kids
S2: to a Catholic school to be, you know, catechized in
S2: the Catholic religion? You know, we don't want all this
S2: namby pamby stuff. Also in the religious education curriculum. So
S2: my understanding is that the Vatican did get involved and
S2: they were involved in a rewriting of the religious education
S2: curriculum in Parramatta, which is now only gone into operation
S2: this year. So this is now very much a Vatican
S2: approved religious education curriculum.
S1: And Jordan, I want to ask you what Catholics here
S1: are thinking about. You know, how much the new pope,
S1: Pope Leo, will be representing their own concerns and their
S1: own issues, or how much he might not be doing so,
S1: because you've written that there was some concern that perhaps
S1: the Australian perspective was not represented in the conclave that
S1: actually chose this new pope. So can you tell us
S1: a bit about that?
S2: So everyone expected that if Australia got a new cardinal,
S2: that new cardinal would most likely be Anthony Fisher, who
S2: is the Archbishop of Sydney. but it wasn't so late
S2: last year. Cardinal Francis appointed Mykola Bitok. So he is
S2: a Ukrainian from the Ukrainian church. He came to Melbourne
S2: in 2021 and has a Ukrainian church parish in Melbourne.
S2: So his appointment late last year ruffled a lot of
S2: feathers because there was this sense that, well, Australia has
S2: one cardinal's hat. It's gone to a guy who's just
S2: come here and will probably return to the Ukraine at
S2: some point, perhaps in the not too distant future, and
S2: that it wasn't really an Australian red hat. It was
S2: Ukrainian red hat by a guy who just happened to
S2: be living here. Now, I'm sure Mykola, you know, absolutely
S2: represented Australian Catholics in good faith. The complaint was a
S2: that it was a a kind of, um, snub of
S2: Archbishop Fisher. Some people say it was even punishment for,
S2: for Pell, although Francis was quite a supporter of Pell
S2: during the allegations that George Pell faced.
S1: We are, of course, talking about the former Australian archbishop,
S1: George Pell.
S2: Yes. So George Pell, of course, was a very high
S2: profile cardinal in Australia who from 2002 faced a lot of, uh,
S2: recurring accusations of sexual abuse against two victims, although his
S2: conviction was then quashed on appeal to the High Court.
S2: He was also quite involved and quite senior in the
S2: Vatican in a lot of like the sort of Vatican bureaucracy.
S2: But Francis was quite supportive of George Pell, so it's
S2: unlikely that he was doing it in any way to
S2: kind of punish Australia for Pell. Uh, but there was
S2: this expectation that Australia would have a home grown cardinal
S2: in the sense somebody who had had spent significant amount
S2: of time in Australia understood the issues facing the Australian church,
S2: including some of those, you know, social tensions that we
S2: have here, particularly around, uh, differing views on how the
S2: church should conduct itself. A differing views on what sort
S2: of issues the church should prioritise. And, you know, some,
S2: some of the issues that are very much at play
S2: in the sort of developed world churches such as pushes
S2: for women to be more involved, even to become priests.
S2: And the issues in terms of losing a lot of
S2: Catholics to, as we know from various censuses, you know,
S2: the number of people who subscribe to our various churches
S2: is dropping quite significantly between every census. So these are
S2: some of the issues that are particularly facing the Australian church.
S2: And there was this view that, well, you know, while
S2: Cardinal BioShock, great cardinal, you know, a very beloved man
S2: of the cloth would be more representing Ukraine's interests in
S2: the conclave rather than Australia's.
S1: Well, thank you so much, Jordan, for your time.
S10: My pleasure.
S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia
S1: Carcasole with technical assistance by Josh towers. Our executive producer
S1: is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
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S1: in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.