1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,920 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,840 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Tuesday, 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:16,640 S1: January 13th. While firefighters in one part of the country 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,919 S1: in Victoria battled devastating bushfires that have destroyed homes and livestock, 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,360 S1: and at the time of recording led to the death 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,440 S1: of one person in northern Australia. Queenslanders were bracing for 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,320 S1: floods from Ex-cyclone Koji today. David Bowman, a professor of 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,560 S1: pyrogeography and fire science at the University of Tasmania, on 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: what causes this climate whiplash and how our changing climate 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:52,000 S1: is worsening our extreme weather. Welcome to the morning Edition, David. 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,960 S1: I've got to ask you about your title. First. Can 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 S1: you tell us what is Pyrogeography? 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,070 S2: Yeah. Look, Pyrogeography is a field that's so useful now, 14 00:01:03,310 --> 00:01:09,190 S2: because it's an arena that allows somebody like me to 15 00:01:09,230 --> 00:01:14,590 S2: think about fire in a total sense. I'm thinking about 16 00:01:14,590 --> 00:01:19,830 S2: fire from a cultural perspective, a social perspective, a legal perspective, 17 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:25,390 S2: a philosophical perspective, a historical perspective, an evolutionary perspective, a 18 00:01:25,390 --> 00:01:29,869 S2: geomorphological perspective, whatever perspective. I want to think about fire, 19 00:01:30,350 --> 00:01:35,190 S2: a pyrogeography I can think about fire. That's what Pyrogeography is. 20 00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:41,870 S2: It's parachuting into the epicenter of fire and what fire 21 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:45,790 S2: is on Earth. In fact, what fire is in the universe? 22 00:01:46,150 --> 00:01:48,550 S1: Well, that's fascinating, and we're so lucky that we've got 23 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:50,950 S1: people like you doing this, because unfortunately, it is so, 24 00:01:50,950 --> 00:01:53,990 S1: so pertinent, particularly at the moment. And I'm wondering if 25 00:01:53,990 --> 00:01:55,550 S1: you can just give us a bit of a summary 26 00:01:55,550 --> 00:01:58,790 S1: of the extreme weather that we are seeing and experiencing 27 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,740 S1: in different parts of the country because it's wild. 28 00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:06,380 S2: Yeah, that's right. We've had an amazing spring here in 29 00:02:06,380 --> 00:02:11,900 S2: Tasmania with continuous windstorms and some uncontrolled fires. Then we've 30 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:17,380 S2: had this absolutely intense heatwave and strong winds in Victoria 31 00:02:17,620 --> 00:02:22,380 S2: leading to, you know, extraordinarily terrible fires. 32 00:02:23,060 --> 00:02:26,060 S3: Good evening. Victoria is in a state of disaster and 33 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:28,619 S3: not yet out of the danger zone. With the bushfire 34 00:02:28,620 --> 00:02:31,620 S3: crisis still raging on at least ten major fronts. 35 00:02:31,620 --> 00:02:36,300 S4: 115 structures have been destroyed. That includes dozens of homes, 36 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:39,579 S4: and many of those homes are belong to volunteer firefighters 37 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:41,020 S4: who've been out there now. 38 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:44,780 S5: Turned deadly after authorities uncovered a body near the town 39 00:02:44,820 --> 00:02:48,660 S5: of Seymour. This is multiple blazes continue to burn out 40 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:52,380 S5: of control across parts of the state, with volunteers working 41 00:02:52,419 --> 00:02:54,380 S5: tirelessly to contain them. 42 00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:58,570 S2: And then, just to add insult to injury, We've got 43 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:02,089 S2: a tropical cyclone impacting North Queensland. 44 00:03:02,130 --> 00:03:02,650 S3: The parts of. 45 00:03:02,650 --> 00:03:06,730 S6: North Queensland have bear the brunt of Ex-tropical Cyclone Cody. 46 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:11,090 S6: The system bringing damaging winds, heavy rain and dangerous. Well, 47 00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:14,690 S6: as we go to air tonight, several roads do remain 48 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:18,570 S6: cut off with authorities warning locals to brace for more 49 00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:19,930 S6: wild conditions. 50 00:03:20,930 --> 00:03:27,889 S2: This is mould breaking stuff where a culture, our culture, 51 00:03:28,490 --> 00:03:32,450 S2: is having to deal with a paradigm shift. We know 52 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:35,890 S2: fires are getting more intense, we know the loss of 53 00:03:36,970 --> 00:03:40,050 S2: life and property is increasing all around the world because 54 00:03:40,050 --> 00:03:45,730 S2: of the increasingly destructive nature of fires. And that's where 55 00:03:45,730 --> 00:03:49,970 S2: Pyrogeography comes in, because it's not just a simple, all 56 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:51,730 S2: we've got to do is this, or we've got to 57 00:03:51,730 --> 00:03:53,850 S2: do that. There's there's a whole lot of things that 58 00:03:53,850 --> 00:03:58,750 S2: are going on at once. And there they're being amplified. 59 00:03:58,750 --> 00:04:03,110 S2: The old paradigm that we were able to control this 60 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:07,670 S2: is being under, you know, mould breaking because our habitat, 61 00:04:07,710 --> 00:04:10,830 S2: you know, the built environment, our habitat. This is personal 62 00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:16,710 S2: now is being threatened by these fires. And the scary 63 00:04:16,750 --> 00:04:20,110 S2: thing about these fires is that they're expressing themselves in 64 00:04:21,029 --> 00:04:27,070 S2: new and terrifying ways that firefighters are reporting, you know, 65 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:30,110 S2: they're just at their limits of what they know and 66 00:04:30,110 --> 00:04:34,510 S2: what they can do. And the key point I would 67 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:38,150 S2: be making is the worst thing we can do is 68 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:45,070 S2: try to switch this into finding fault or being angry 69 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:49,870 S2: or polarizing. It's it's no, we've got to understand this 70 00:04:49,870 --> 00:04:55,670 S2: as sort of now for, for a whole lot of reasons, 71 00:04:56,140 --> 00:05:02,380 S2: we're going to be dealing with these this new fire regimes, 72 00:05:02,380 --> 00:05:04,820 S2: these escalation of fire. We're going to be dealing with 73 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:08,099 S2: this for decades to come. And so we've got to 74 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:10,140 S2: get in with the program. We've got to start doing 75 00:05:10,140 --> 00:05:13,700 S2: things differently. We've got to be experimenting. We've got to 76 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:17,140 S2: work together as a team, as a society. Think of 77 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:22,340 S2: really interesting ways we can coexist with this, this diabolical 78 00:05:22,339 --> 00:05:23,900 S2: and and escalating threat. 79 00:05:24,180 --> 00:05:26,420 S1: Well, you mentioned there, you know, that we're undergoing this 80 00:05:26,420 --> 00:05:29,020 S1: paradigm shift. And one thing I really wanted to ask 81 00:05:29,020 --> 00:05:30,780 S1: you about, which I think a lot of Australians would 82 00:05:30,820 --> 00:05:33,140 S1: have been thinking about in particular over the last three 83 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:36,700 S1: days or a few days, is the wildly different weather 84 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:38,860 S1: we're seeing at the same time. So you've got bushfires 85 00:05:38,860 --> 00:05:41,860 S1: and 40 plus degree temperatures in one part of the country, 86 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,539 S1: you know, Victoria, and then you've got floods and cyclones 87 00:05:44,540 --> 00:05:48,100 S1: in another in Queensland. Meanwhile, I'm recording in Sydney and 88 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:50,300 S1: within about 24 hours just the other day, we went 89 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:55,170 S1: from searing temperatures over 40 degrees to then quickly needing jumpers. 90 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:56,330 S1: Why is this happening? 91 00:05:57,410 --> 00:06:04,850 S2: Well, that's exactly right. We're seeing this extraordinarily unstable climate. 92 00:06:04,850 --> 00:06:07,890 S2: And one of the the problems, I think, with the 93 00:06:07,890 --> 00:06:12,010 S2: phrase climate change was that it was it sort of 94 00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:16,289 S2: conveyed this idea that it was elective and it was 95 00:06:16,290 --> 00:06:19,530 S2: going to be something like altering a thermostat, and we 96 00:06:19,529 --> 00:06:23,130 S2: would choose, oh, we can decide on 1.5, or we 97 00:06:23,130 --> 00:06:26,250 S2: could decide on two, or we could take a bet 98 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:29,330 S2: and go a bit harder. What actually the way it 99 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:33,089 S2: plays out and we're learning as we're going is that 100 00:06:33,450 --> 00:06:40,850 S2: the Earth system and the climate system is really very complicated. 101 00:06:40,850 --> 00:06:45,010 S2: And when you start putting more energy into the atmosphere, 102 00:06:45,529 --> 00:06:50,330 S2: the energy in the way the atmosphere works, the energy 103 00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:56,080 S2: expresses itself in extraordinary ways. So we have, you know, 104 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:01,120 S2: as we know, these extraordinary downpours and flooding events, we 105 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:06,960 S2: have these periods of just amazing rain. We're seeing this 106 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,520 S2: as well in California. So so you get these very 107 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,000 S2: wet periods, you get flooding. You can get an interaction 108 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,400 S2: of the flooding with burnt areas. And then before you 109 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,320 S2: know it, you can switch back to drought. And then 110 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,640 S2: you can be stressing vegetation. And also you've got the 111 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,520 S2: legacy of all of that wet period when nobody's thinking 112 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:35,120 S2: about fire, they're too fixated on on the moisture in 113 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:43,360 S2: the landscape. You're growing these extraordinary quantities of vegetation, which 114 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,240 S2: will then become fuel during the dry period. So that's 115 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,840 S2: bad enough. And then, you know, to add insult to injury, 116 00:07:52,590 --> 00:07:57,910 S2: We've been getting these incredible windstorms and windstorms go with 117 00:07:57,910 --> 00:08:02,230 S2: wind driven fires, and wind driven fires are just the 118 00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:06,230 S2: worst because they move so quickly. Very. The growth rate 119 00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:10,590 S2: is so high. Extremely difficult to fight, very difficult to 120 00:08:10,630 --> 00:08:14,310 S2: use aircraft because the atmosphere is, you know, you've got 121 00:08:14,310 --> 00:08:17,630 S2: a windstorm and then you also have. And what we've 122 00:08:17,630 --> 00:08:22,310 S2: seen in Victoria, which is just just mind bending, is 123 00:08:22,350 --> 00:08:28,230 S2: these fire thunderstorms where you get such incredible intense fires 124 00:08:28,670 --> 00:08:32,150 S2: that they generate their own weather systems and they are, again, 125 00:08:32,270 --> 00:08:37,950 S2: horrible things to contemplate, very difficult things to fight. So 126 00:08:38,470 --> 00:08:43,150 S2: what we're really describing is what's being called in fire science. 127 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:49,630 S2: Uh hydroclimatic. Whiplash, this climate whiplash where we're oscillating and 128 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:53,699 S2: lots of different scales amongst years. We're going from wet 129 00:08:53,740 --> 00:08:57,580 S2: to dry, wet to dry. So we've got this flickering, um, 130 00:08:57,620 --> 00:09:02,020 S2: between these states. And then within our fire seasons, we're 131 00:09:02,020 --> 00:09:07,380 S2: seeing extreme heat waves, extreme wind events, and then you 132 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:10,780 S2: get the conjunction of an extreme heat wave and extreme 133 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:14,180 S2: wind event. We've just seen what happens. It's just absolutely horrendous. 134 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:17,500 S1: I wanted to ask you about what you've just mentioned there, 135 00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:23,060 S1: which was climate whiplash or hydroclimate whiplash. How is climate 136 00:09:23,059 --> 00:09:26,740 S1: change causing or driving this? You know, fires in one 137 00:09:26,740 --> 00:09:29,740 S1: part of the country, floods in another. What's happening here? 138 00:09:30,059 --> 00:09:35,179 S2: Well, well, what's happening is basically that the old weather 139 00:09:35,179 --> 00:09:39,980 S2: patterns are breaking down. And so, you know, one of 140 00:09:39,980 --> 00:09:43,500 S2: the reasons it's going to become increasingly difficult to forecast 141 00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:48,500 S2: weather is because we're getting all of these complex interactions 142 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:54,250 S2: between sea surface temperatures. Wind fields are changing because of, 143 00:09:54,290 --> 00:09:57,930 S2: you know, the high pressure systems are moving further south. 144 00:09:57,929 --> 00:10:03,090 S2: We're getting all sorts of complicated interactions at a planetary scale, 145 00:10:03,410 --> 00:10:07,570 S2: and then that plays out at local scales. I mean, 146 00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:11,809 S2: often I've been looking at synoptic charts and just puzzled 147 00:10:11,809 --> 00:10:18,210 S2: at the complexity of them because new emergent weather patterns 148 00:10:18,250 --> 00:10:23,090 S2: are becoming created. And that is a really important point that, 149 00:10:23,130 --> 00:10:27,650 S2: you know, it's not a criticism that this terrible fire 150 00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:32,730 S2: season wasn't adequately forecast. I think it was entirely predictable, 151 00:10:32,970 --> 00:10:40,370 S2: because what we know from the past isn't necessarily scaling 152 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:43,170 S2: well into the future. So we, you know, we do 153 00:10:43,210 --> 00:10:47,530 S2: know about, um, what are called, you know, inter interannual 154 00:10:47,530 --> 00:10:51,270 S2: climate modes. And so we have names for them, like 155 00:10:51,270 --> 00:10:56,430 S2: the Indian Ocean Dipole and the um, and so, you know, 156 00:10:56,470 --> 00:11:00,270 S2: the La Nina, El Nino phenomenon. But when you heat 157 00:11:00,270 --> 00:11:05,230 S2: up the planet, those things start expressing themselves in new ways. 158 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:11,310 S2: And we're seeing different sorts of weather systems emerging. So 159 00:11:11,309 --> 00:11:16,670 S2: for instance, the west coast of Tasmania was classically a very, 160 00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:21,110 S2: very wet place. And it's undergoing a drying trend just 161 00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:24,030 S2: in the same way that the ocean currents are changing. 162 00:11:24,030 --> 00:11:28,189 S2: So this makes it very, very difficult to reliably predict 163 00:11:28,190 --> 00:11:32,750 S2: or forecast what's going on. We're absolutely certain that the 164 00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:38,430 S2: climate is going to change because of increased greenhouse gas pollution. 165 00:11:38,750 --> 00:11:42,750 S2: But exactly how that will play out this summer or 166 00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:46,910 S2: next summer becomes more and more difficult. And so that's 167 00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:51,660 S2: where we're really involved as a learning as we go. 168 00:11:52,179 --> 00:11:56,260 S2: And that's why research and development and really good monitoring 169 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:02,900 S2: is so important, because that's the we're almost rediscovering or 170 00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:07,820 S2: or discovering a new climate as it's evolving and emerging. 171 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:13,860 S2: And this is where building community capacity is going to 172 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:17,459 S2: be so important. Communities have to be sort of on 173 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:24,660 S2: this awareness that, as we've seen, situations can escalate extremely 174 00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:30,140 S2: quickly because the climate is not playing by the old rules. 175 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:33,020 S2: It's a it's a different beastie. 176 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:41,020 S1: We'll be right back. 177 00:12:45,380 --> 00:12:48,690 S7: Hello to crime nuts and nuts. just generally. We're back 178 00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:52,530 S7: with series seven of Naked City. I'd like to say 179 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:55,410 S7: the delay was technical, but it's basically I'm bone lazy 180 00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:58,770 S7: forced now to do it. It's pretty good. We talk 181 00:12:58,809 --> 00:13:02,730 S7: about cold cases, hot cases and cases that were never solved. 182 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:11,090 S7: Notorious crooks, brilliant detectives and bughouse reporters. Naked city out soon. 183 00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:21,410 S1: And you've just mentioned there that building community capacity is important. 184 00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:23,930 S1: This is obviously as we record this on Monday morning. 185 00:13:23,929 --> 00:13:28,090 S1: This is very pertinent because there are still 27 fires 186 00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:31,450 S1: burning in Victoria as we record this. Two, I believe 187 00:13:31,450 --> 00:13:33,610 S1: are still at emergency level. So what does that mean? 188 00:13:33,610 --> 00:13:36,890 S1: Building community capacity. What would that look like? What should 189 00:13:36,890 --> 00:13:37,689 S1: that look like? 190 00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:40,689 S2: Well, well, this is right. This is what we're still 191 00:13:41,010 --> 00:13:46,720 S2: trying to work through. So a central paradigm in Current 192 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:53,440 S2: emergency management is the paradigm of shared responsibility. And so 193 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,000 S2: the fire agencies have never said that they were able 194 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,280 S2: to take full responsibility for a fire. They need to 195 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,880 S2: share that responsibility with the community. And that's that's the official, uh, doctrine, 196 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,520 S2: if you will. Now, where the the opportunity lies is 197 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,640 S2: working through what that means and what that will look 198 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:24,920 S2: like and what powers the community can have to share 199 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:30,840 S2: that responsibility and what opportunities government, local government, state government, 200 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,440 S2: federal government have to provide communities, uh, resources and the 201 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,240 S2: means to implement strategies and solutions that are going to 202 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,790 S2: work for them and that clearly we can't Have a 203 00:14:45,790 --> 00:14:50,990 S2: situation where every time there's an uncontrolled fire in the environment, 204 00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:54,430 S2: we have to do large scale mass evacuations. It's just 205 00:14:54,430 --> 00:15:01,230 S2: not it's it can work in certain localized situations and 206 00:15:01,270 --> 00:15:03,710 S2: we're very good at it. And there are, you know, 207 00:15:03,830 --> 00:15:07,030 S2: Red cross and so on. People have thought deeply about 208 00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:11,390 S2: evacuations and evacuation centers, but the sorts of thing that's 209 00:15:11,390 --> 00:15:15,430 S2: been happening in Victoria and, and is likely to continue 210 00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:19,510 S2: through this summer is just the the the load on 211 00:15:19,510 --> 00:15:23,150 S2: the system is going to be extraordinary in the cost 212 00:15:23,150 --> 00:15:25,510 S2: and the load on the community, because there will be 213 00:15:25,510 --> 00:15:28,950 S2: a lot of false alarms. And and so people will be, 214 00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:33,510 S2: you know, you start becoming resentful if you continually being 215 00:15:33,550 --> 00:15:35,990 S2: told to leave and then you go back. There was 216 00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:38,510 S2: no reason to leave. It's not so it's very these 217 00:15:38,510 --> 00:15:41,950 S2: judgments of how do you know when to leave? And 218 00:15:41,950 --> 00:15:46,620 S2: so what? I think that the opportunity lies is figuring 219 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:50,980 S2: out how can we get communities which are much safer. 220 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:54,820 S2: So they actually got the opportunity to ride it out 221 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:59,500 S2: rather than having to flee. And that will require a 222 00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:04,300 S2: lot of thought, because some communities are just simply in 223 00:16:04,340 --> 00:16:09,060 S2: too dangerous a place to stay. So you've got to 224 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,860 S2: you've got two options. One is to leave early, and 225 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:16,619 S2: then that means you're almost certainly if a fire does occur, 226 00:16:16,940 --> 00:16:19,660 S2: there will be house loss because nobody will be there 227 00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:24,420 S2: to put out the fires. Another option that is requiring 228 00:16:24,420 --> 00:16:29,700 S2: much more thought research and development are fire shelters where 229 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:34,500 S2: you have, you know, specially designed. And they are a legal, uh, 230 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:38,500 S2: opportunity in Victoria, but not in the other states and territories. 231 00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:41,460 S2: So there, you know, Victoria is leading the way with 232 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:46,090 S2: fire shelters, but having more fire shelters and understanding the 233 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:53,650 S2: investment between community safe spaces, fire shelters, building design, like 234 00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:55,930 S2: a lot of effort, is going to the building design, 235 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:59,850 S2: which is the bushfire attack level building design. But the 236 00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:03,210 S2: building design is trying to increase the opportunity to the 237 00:17:03,210 --> 00:17:06,850 S2: building to survive. But nobody is saying that those buildings 238 00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:09,570 S2: are safe to be in. So we need to think 239 00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:14,409 S2: about the opportunity to have fire shelters, in my opinion, 240 00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:18,530 S2: in the same way that we have cyclone shelters as 241 00:17:18,690 --> 00:17:22,930 S2: as just basically it's an industry standard thing in in 242 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:26,210 S2: cyclone prone areas in Australia to have a cyclone shelter 243 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:28,930 S2: that goes with the house. So we need to figure 244 00:17:28,930 --> 00:17:36,450 S2: out a way more effectively to allow communities to find 245 00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:40,810 S2: ways of coexisting with fire threat that are going to 246 00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:44,790 S2: work for them and have a way where the government 247 00:17:44,790 --> 00:17:50,149 S2: can support those community based solutions. So how do we 248 00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:55,630 S2: work that out? How do we resource it? These are really, really, 249 00:17:55,630 --> 00:17:59,750 S2: really big challenges for the future of fire management. But 250 00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:03,990 S2: I think that we've got to be very clear that 251 00:18:04,030 --> 00:18:09,350 S2: the idea that the government can solve this problem on 252 00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:13,389 S2: its own, that's not the paradigm, the paradigm or the 253 00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:16,710 S2: doctrine is it's got to be shared responsibility. We've also 254 00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:21,070 S2: got to understand as a community, we've got to work 255 00:18:21,070 --> 00:18:25,869 S2: out how to make our habitat, our built environment fire safe, 256 00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:30,750 S2: and we've got to make the investment, get the ratio 257 00:18:30,750 --> 00:18:36,030 S2: right of investing in mitigating these risks as much as 258 00:18:36,030 --> 00:18:41,139 S2: having the emergency response. And we've got to get comfortable 259 00:18:41,140 --> 00:18:44,380 S2: with the idea that we're going to build grand firebreaks, 260 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:48,140 S2: we're going to do really interesting things around interfaces of 261 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:52,580 S2: our towns and cities and homes, change our garden design 262 00:18:52,580 --> 00:18:55,340 S2: and do all of these things, change our building design 263 00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:59,100 S2: and to a certain degree, change our lifestyles so we 264 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:03,420 S2: can coexist with these threats. Otherwise, we're relying, I think, 265 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:09,940 S2: unrealistically on on technological solutions which are manifestly imperfect when 266 00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:13,300 S2: they get challenged by, you know, a massive heat wave 267 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:14,619 S2: and massive windstorms. 268 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:21,619 S1: Well, David, thank you so much for your time. 269 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:25,740 S2: Oh, well, thank you very much. And I'm really feel 270 00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:29,220 S2: for everybody in Victoria. And, um, I just hope that 271 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:33,620 S2: we can leverage something out of this terrible situation and, 272 00:19:34,060 --> 00:19:36,979 S2: and get better at this because there's more more of 273 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:40,409 S2: these events are unfortunately Inevitable. 274 00:19:48,530 --> 00:19:52,210 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Kai Wong. 275 00:19:52,490 --> 00:19:56,090 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio 276 00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:59,450 S1: is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of 277 00:19:59,450 --> 00:20:02,250 S1: The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy 278 00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:04,970 S1: the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to 279 00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:08,210 S1: our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what 280 00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:14,730 S1: we do. Search the Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign 281 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:18,409 S1: up for our newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of 282 00:20:18,410 --> 00:20:22,050 S1: the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your 283 00:20:22,050 --> 00:20:26,050 S1: inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm 284 00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:30,850 S1: Samantha Cylinder Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.