Speaker 1: Nine podcasts.
Speaker 2: Australia's relationship with China is complex and problematic. I doubt
Speaker 2: this country fully understands Chinese thinking, or at least the
Speaker 2: thinking of the Chinese government the Communist Party. They send
Speaker 2: ships to circumnavigate our country, the act of a bully.
Speaker 2: They impose trade sanctions and then scream about trade sanctions
Speaker 2: imposed by others, the act of a bully. They still
Speaker 2: have not answered fully to the origins of COVID. They
Speaker 2: see human rights as and irritation. They execute more people
Speaker 2: than we know for crimes we don't know. They lock
Speaker 2: up our citizens, intimidate Chinese nationals in this country on
Speaker 2: our streets. They spy on us, they hack us. We're
Speaker 2: probably naive as to what foreign countries like China can
Speaker 2: and will do with me. As a person who knows personally,
Speaker 2: Chang Lai has been through hell, which means we need
Speaker 2: to listen to her. Chinese born an Australian citizen, she
Speaker 2: worked for eight years at a Chinese TV business channel,
Speaker 2: stayed owned. She was arrested on bizarre trumped up chargers.
Speaker 2: Accused of spying, She was jailed, She was interrogated in
Speaker 2: palling conditions. She served three years and two months in
Speaker 2: custody and really still doesn't know why. She's been free
Speaker 2: for just over a year, in fact, two years. In October,
Speaker 2: she's back living in Australia working on Sky News on
Speaker 2: TIF which is something of a change from a communist
Speaker 2: controlled station in China from the Communist Party to Sky
Speaker 2: there's a difference. She's released a book, Chang Lai, a
Speaker 2: Memoir of Freedom, which is released on Wednesday, the fourth
Speaker 2: of June, and a documentary with Sky Chang Lay My Story,
Speaker 2: which goes to at seven point thirty on Sky on
Speaker 2: Tuesday the third of June.
Speaker 1: Chang LEI, thank you Neil for speaking up for me.
Speaker 2: Look incarcerated, Well, a lot of people did. A lot
Speaker 2: of people did before we get into what happened, and
Speaker 2: I want to know what you see for the future
Speaker 2: and how you interpret Australia's relationship with China. The name
Speaker 2: of the podcast is Neil Mitchell asks why so you
Speaker 2: were arrested interrogator six months eventually tried sort of sent
Speaker 2: to jail And the question that kept coming to my
Speaker 2: mind reading your book, why why do they do it?
Speaker 1: I have a few theories as to why there is
Speaker 1: the timeline of Australia asking for the investigation independent investigation
Speaker 1: into the source of COVID, which enraged China. And on
Speaker 1: the same day the man in charge of cleaning up
Speaker 1: Uhan was arrested and three days later surveillance on me
Speaker 1: and possibly other Australians will at least one other I
Speaker 1: know of, started And at the trial they said that
Speaker 1: was because I was being suspected because I was in
Speaker 1: frequent contact with foreign journalists, which is absurd because I've
Speaker 1: been doing that for twenty years and why shouldn't I
Speaker 1: be as a foreign journalist if we could contact with
Speaker 1: other foreign journalists.
Speaker 2: But they put extraordinary resources into it, didn't they. I mean,
Speaker 2: you were monitored and then interrogated for a long time.
Speaker 2: They put it an enormous amount of effort into it.
Speaker 1: The Ministry of State Security has a very very generous budget,
Speaker 1: and I almost think that when they can't justify that
Speaker 1: budget they grab people to make sure if the budget
Speaker 1: doesn't get cut, to justify their own existence. Because as
Speaker 1: far as I know, at the Beijing detention facility where
Speaker 1: I was held supposedly for spies, they're only around thirty
Speaker 1: two inmates. And to think there would have been three
Speaker 1: officers per inmate, and the surveillance and just the ultra
Speaker 1: tight security. It's a lot of money.
Speaker 2: I noticed I picked up a point in your book
Speaker 2: about the budget because they've arrested you and put you
Speaker 2: into a flash BMW to take you off to Yes
Speaker 2: seven series, So it's sort of hostage to planetry. Really,
Speaker 2: that's what it's about.
Speaker 1: Well, and the fact that I was ethnically Chinese, especially
Speaker 1: when and with others when they have when they're American
Speaker 1: Chinese or Canadian Chinese, there's sort of we're seen as
Speaker 1: easier targets because there's somehow it's somehow easier to suspect
Speaker 1: us of not being loyal to either country. And there's
Speaker 1: also the fact that I was critical of China's handling
Speaker 1: of the pandemic in various social media posts, and China
Speaker 1: is very what's the word vengeful when it comes to
Speaker 1: anything any criticism about COVID.
Speaker 2: I think about a month after you we arrested. Wasn't
Speaker 2: Bill Birtles from the OBC and Mike Smith, Yes, in
Speaker 2: review they believe the country very quickly. Would that be
Speaker 2: a similar reason, Well, neither of them Chinese origin. But
Speaker 2: with that that's true. But three Australians at least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least they didn't have to go through what
Speaker 1: I went through. But it certainly was all of it
Speaker 1: was just trying to slap Australia in the face.
Speaker 2: There's another aspect of that too, I wondered, and I
Speaker 2: thought about this with Bill Birdles and Mike Smith. If
Speaker 2: they had been put through what you were put through, yep,
Speaker 2: I think the outrage in Australia would have been louder.
Speaker 2: Do you think, I mean, was that relevant that you
Speaker 2: could be as an Australian citizen treated the way you were,
Speaker 2: but because you're of Chinese heritage, Chinese origin, they didn't
Speaker 2: expect anger in Australia.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think there's a After the two Canadian Michaels
Speaker 1: who were arrested in China and a tit for tat
Speaker 1: after Canada detained the Huawei CFO Mawan Joel, the outrage
Speaker 1: there made the state security apparatus think again about grabbing
Speaker 1: a hostage who is Caucasian.
Speaker 2: How do they use that? Do they? How do they?
Speaker 2: Nobody at any stage I assume from within the Chinese
Speaker 2: system goes to the Australian governor says, well, you behave yourself.
Speaker 2: Look we've got of course not in China.
Speaker 1: Nothing is verbalized.
Speaker 2: That's sort of the subtle pressure. Look what we can
Speaker 2: do a form of bullying. Really, that's right, subtle but
Speaker 2: blatant subtle. Do you think they achieved what they wanted
Speaker 2: to achieve all that money? I just kept looking at
Speaker 2: the resources that went into.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even when I was at the halfway House.
Speaker 1: Three days before my freedom flight home, twelve officers booked
Speaker 1: out a three star hotel on the outskirts of Beijing,
Speaker 1: guarding me day and night, watching me sleep, just to
Speaker 1: make sure that nobody knew, nobody got wind of the
Speaker 1: fact that I was getting out. And it's about face,
Speaker 1: although they have no shame. It's about the idea that
Speaker 1: China has secure borders that nobody can infiltrate us. That's
Speaker 1: for the Chinese audience obviously, and it's about look what
Speaker 1: we can do to coerce other countries into behaving. But
Speaker 1: I don't think they expected the backlash, as in the
Speaker 1: how negative sentiment turned towards China as a concept the
Speaker 1: rais country. Yes, exactly, and that unfortunately also resulted in
Speaker 1: some racism towards Chinese Australians, which is terrible, but most
Speaker 1: of it it's against the Communist Party.
Speaker 2: Where was the racism against Chinese Australia in this country?
Speaker 1: Yes, really, maybe it's because of COVID and maybe it's
Speaker 1: because of our I guess what's in the news headlines.
Speaker 2: You're guilty. Your guilt or innocence was irrelevant, obviously.
Speaker 1: But if you thought through, anyone can be made guilty
Speaker 1: that I know of. That I'm sure of because just
Speaker 1: speaking to the other cell mates and how flimsy all
Speaker 1: of our cases were. It doesn't. I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: closed trial. Mine went for ninety minutes, which when I
Speaker 1: told Lawyer's Forum, they will laugh. They said, here, a
Speaker 1: show trial is two weeks. There is really a show trial.
Speaker 2: But I understand the motive behind it. So how they
Speaker 2: provoke it, that's sort of it's a message to Australia.
Speaker 2: But is this something you did? You mentioned breaching an embargo,
Speaker 2: which is.
Speaker 1: An embargo that something journal no, no, no, no, an embargo
Speaker 1: that nobody knew about until a year later in the
Speaker 1: prosecution phase when the prosecutor saw the case threw it
Speaker 1: back at the investigating officers. And said you need to
Speaker 1: have a document that that talks about this so called
Speaker 1: embargo time. And that's when they went to the Classification
Speaker 1: Bureau and said, do up a document that says this,
Speaker 1: this was embargoed at until seven thirty. So, because here
Speaker 1: when or when the American embassy used to send US
Speaker 1: press releases, the embargo would be very clear on the document.
Speaker 1: It was not on this document I got.
Speaker 2: I've broken a few myself.
Speaker 1: Thank you for making me feel better.
Speaker 2: Your father has been a direct critic of the Communist Party,
Speaker 2: and he described a non social media as an evil cult. Yes,
Speaker 2: which a lot of people would find hard to disagree
Speaker 2: with any part of the reason. I mean, they'd be
Speaker 2: monitoring that, wouldn't they'd know what he was.
Speaker 1: But they did question me quite a bit about whether
Speaker 1: I was close to my dad and why he felt
Speaker 1: like that. And I mean, I'm sure they were monitoring
Speaker 1: his social media account, but he's here and he doesn't
Speaker 1: have many followers.
Speaker 2: Why did you?
Speaker 1: But I think they were trying to get at the
Speaker 1: way my mind works. You see. The whole difference with
Speaker 1: the Chinese system, or perhaps the Communist system, is it's
Speaker 1: all about the mind. It's about shaping your mind. It's
Speaker 1: about brainwashing, and that's why they go to your parents,
Speaker 1: to your grandparents, your ancestry, and you know what you
Speaker 1: do in order to arrive at this conclusion that you
Speaker 1: are guilty because your dad hates the Communist Party, so
Speaker 1: you must be a Communist hater and a trader to
Speaker 1: the country, etc.
Speaker 2: M did how did you? Why did you go to
Speaker 2: work the way you're speaking now? Did you when you
Speaker 2: went to work in the system, the Global Chinese Television Network,
Speaker 2: which of course is basically state owned And I had
Speaker 2: a look at it today, there's a lot of propaganda
Speaker 2: in there. Why did you go and work there? Did you?
Speaker 2: Did you think it would be different to what you
Speaker 2: now see?
Speaker 1: Well, this did not come in twenty twenty. I joined
Speaker 1: its predecessor in two thousand and two when it was
Speaker 1: still a fledgling English TV station, really needing somebody with
Speaker 1: my skill set, which was business degree and education and
Speaker 1: experience and bilingual, and I was an accountant feeling very
Speaker 1: bored in the job, wanting to use that bilingual advantage
Speaker 1: and report and change careers. So I was there for
Speaker 1: a year and a half before I went to CNBC,
Speaker 1: which really taught me the real skills of TV, and
Speaker 1: I was there for nine years before then coming back
Speaker 1: to what then was rebrandedt CGTN. But that was because
Speaker 1: the man who had hired me in two thousand and
Speaker 1: two very persuasive, and he had been based in the US,
Speaker 1: and in fact, a lot of the middle managers there
Speaker 1: were my old mates, and I thought that I would
Speaker 1: really be making a change from within.
Speaker 2: So did you. But into your mind, I'm entering I'm
Speaker 2: going to work for an organization which is really part
Speaker 2: of the Communist.
Speaker 1: Party the way, so it's stretching it the way I
Speaker 1: thought about it. English media, whether it's the state TV
Speaker 1: station or a foreign TV station, the way they work
Speaker 1: in China is much freer compared to Chinese mass media
Speaker 1: because you really need a certain there's a barrier of
Speaker 1: entry to understand English TV. And what the Chinese government
Speaker 1: is most afraid of are the have nots, because they
Speaker 1: can rebel, they don't care, they don't have anything to lose.
Speaker 1: If you can understand English, that means you're university educated.
Speaker 1: That means you probably have assets. They can get you
Speaker 1: any of a number of You are not going to
Speaker 1: chuck it all in.
Speaker 2: How far has Chinese security on that basis the Chinese
Speaker 2: security apparatus to infiltrate the media, I mean, looking back,
Speaker 2: was it part of the global Chinese television network? Were
Speaker 2: the people who you thought were you were friends or
Speaker 2: certainly colleagues who were watching you on behalf of the
Speaker 2: security authorities.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that they were watching me. I believe
Speaker 1: they could have installed some surveillance equipment in my apartment
Speaker 1: because the way they rated it, they knew exactly where
Speaker 1: I spent time and didn't go to the other rooms.
Speaker 1: I knew that a few colleagues had been spoken to
Speaker 1: by the ministry, but at the time I thought that
Speaker 1: was just parf of the course. You just if you
Speaker 1: reported on general news and political news, then they were interested,
Speaker 1: and all they do is is have a chat to you.
Speaker 1: That's how they If.
Speaker 2: I was so, you don't think you were spied on
Speaker 2: by colleagues, I.
Speaker 1: Don't think so. But certainly they did pressure my former
Speaker 1: colleagues to testify against me. Yes, with their testimonies.
Speaker 2: Would it be normal procedure of working an organization that
Speaker 2: to be a member of the Communist Party For.
Speaker 1: The Chinese media, the Chinese TV stations to get on
Speaker 1: air you have to be a party member. For the
Speaker 1: English channel, no, because the whole point is to have
Speaker 1: native speakers and foreigners to be the on air talent.
Speaker 2: So you were never asked or directed to join the party.
Speaker 1: Were all foreign citizens. I didn't know that we could,
Speaker 1: or well not that anyone would have wanted to. And
Speaker 1: in fact, many of the staff there, the producers and supervisors,
Speaker 1: were not Communist Party members.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the book a thing called a propaganda directive.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, now you.
Speaker 2: Can imagine the hackles going up after a lifetime in journalism.
Speaker 2: What is a propaganda directive? And were you subject to one?
Speaker 1: So when I was at CNBC, they were in a
Speaker 1: joint venture with the second largest media group in China, SMG,
Speaker 1: and because I was in their using their studios, I
Speaker 1: saw their propaganda directives because they go around to all
Speaker 1: the Chinese media organizations, and I used to have a
Speaker 1: laugh just reading them. And one day when I tried
Speaker 1: to photocopy one, I was kind of tapped on the
Speaker 1: shoulder and I think people thought this is not good
Speaker 1: for sharing with a foreign citizen. But by then I
Speaker 1: had already seen quite a lot and the real Doozy
Speaker 1: was in two thousand and eight, right before the Beijing Olympics.
Speaker 1: It was more than a dozen pages long, and there
Speaker 1: were things like, do not criticize Putin's hairstyle and and
Speaker 1: and get this. If there will be more than two
Speaker 1: thousand foreign journalists coming to cover the Olympics, be cordial
Speaker 1: to them. Do not confiscate their equipment, do not beat
Speaker 1: them up, but do not let them find the people
Speaker 1: they want to interview. And this is black and white.
Speaker 2: So they're asking other journalists to stop the foreign journalists
Speaker 2: from doing their job.
Speaker 1: Well, it's asking the media organizations, and it goes around
Speaker 1: to other organizations, perhaps the police stations as well.
Speaker 2: I was in Beijing not long before the Olympics. I
Speaker 2: went it might have been a year, but I did
Speaker 2: a preview and looked some of the facilities were just
Speaker 2: fascinating the city.
Speaker 1: I must have been on the same tour. Was it
Speaker 1: the one organized by bocog.
Speaker 2: No, it was just just us, but we did have
Speaker 2: a government guide with us, who I assume was watching
Speaker 2: what we did and of course making sure we behaved ourselves. Yes,
Speaker 2: but I remember we were We had made all the
Speaker 2: arrangements to broadcast from Teneman Square. We had the lines
Speaker 2: in all the appropriate thing, the approval from everybody, and
Speaker 2: the night before we got a message saying, no you
Speaker 2: can't go.
Speaker 1: Oh, I said, what were you going to do.
Speaker 2: There's going to do the program live from tinam And Square.
Speaker 2: I've done it for the Great Wall, I've done it
Speaker 2: from Changy I've done it from the Washington Monument. You
Speaker 2: know here we are in a world famous spot. Nothing. Well,
Speaker 2: we would have talked a bit about the history of
Speaker 2: Tenam Square, obviously, and the message came through, No, you
Speaker 2: can't do it. Here's the written authority, We've got everything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'll do it. No, no you wan't to it. Well,
Speaker 2: I'll send my producer down and he will report on
Speaker 2: his mobile phone. And the message came back, yes you
Speaker 2: can do that, but we'll arrest him. Wow. Would that
Speaker 2: be true?
Speaker 1: Of course. I think what they might have done, as
Speaker 1: I know, is the process is when it comes to foreigners,
Speaker 1: foreign journalists, they will go and look up everything you've
Speaker 1: reported on and yeah, Neil, you would have had, you know,
Speaker 1: lots of red flags.
Speaker 2: The funny end to it has ended up interviewing that
Speaker 2: on the last own Beijing Broadcasting for the hotel room
Speaker 2: because we couldn't get to TMN Square only your John
Speaker 2: Howard was then Prime Minister, told him about me. He
Speaker 2: thought it was hilarious. He had to be good. If
Speaker 2: that rested out of the way, well back then.
Speaker 1: It would have seemed like a joke. Unfortunately now it would.
Speaker 2: Just be Yeah. In fact, I, having read your book,
Speaker 2: I don't think i'd go anywhere near China, even if
Speaker 2: I could get in, which I don't think I could.
Speaker 2: I don't think I got near it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: Did you lose friends through all this?
Speaker 1: Oh lots. Yeah, I've lost money, I've lost my reputation.
Speaker 2: I have lost your reputation, well in China, not just.
Speaker 1: In China, but you know how many people around the
Speaker 1: world my old contacts would just dismiss me as somewhat dodgy.
Speaker 1: You know, even if I have yeah, I was wrongly
Speaker 1: accused at such a there'd still be that question mark.
Speaker 1: And I think even for people I meet now, they think,
Speaker 1: is she really not a spy? Maybe she's Maybe she's
Speaker 1: you know, this is a grand scheme by the Chinese.
Speaker 1: Maybe she's a Chinese spy. Still, it's just I see
Speaker 1: the I see the doubt in.
Speaker 2: You can see the limbs of the public. But surely
Speaker 2: not friends. Surely friends don't doubt you, do they?
Speaker 1: Obviously if they doubt me, they're not friends.
Speaker 2: But there are people shunning you on them. Yes, that's sad, it.
Speaker 1: Is, It hurts. And then I have also gained so
Speaker 1: many new, brilliant friendships and just received so much more
Speaker 1: that it's just a new beginning.
Speaker 2: Who were they just digressing? And who are the Australians
Speaker 2: still in jily?
Speaker 1: Well, doctor young Jin Beijing?
Speaker 2: What's happened with him?
Speaker 1: He's well. Next February will be the two year limit
Speaker 1: for converting his death sentence to a life sentence. So
Speaker 1: that's a big, big milestone. But we're just hoping we
Speaker 1: can well. Actually, personally, for me, I would really like
Speaker 1: his family to speak up because I know that there
Speaker 1: are there are reasons why they haven't. But this is
Speaker 1: a man who is who has been there six years
Speaker 1: and is suffering. He's turned sixty and his health is terrible.
Speaker 1: He's forced to perform strenuous labor in terrible conditions.
Speaker 2: And why again the question why why are they doing
Speaker 2: this to him?
Speaker 1: Okay, so one telling, one telling thing that I heard
Speaker 1: from an interrogating officer. He said it off handley, but
Speaker 1: it really impressed me as he left a deeper impression,
Speaker 1: which was, Oh, people like you are kind of okay
Speaker 1: because you grew up in Australia as in overseas. But
Speaker 1: the people we really have and the people really want
Speaker 1: to punish harshly are those who used to be in
Speaker 1: our system, who used to be one of us changed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's possibly the biggest factor.
Speaker 2: Do you fear for his future?
Speaker 1: I can't see how if anything happened to him in
Speaker 1: jail it would be a good look, or that it
Speaker 1: would be good for relations. But right now I think
Speaker 1: China has more on his plate than relations with Australia.
Speaker 1: So it's just not a priority, even if we made
Speaker 1: it a priority.
Speaker 2: Not to get to that time this morning. And yes,
Speaker 2: but let's talk about what happened to you. You say
Speaker 2: at one stage death was appealing.
Speaker 1: Yes, Why when every minute is painful, when the past
Speaker 1: seems just like an ugly mess of mistakes, when the
Speaker 1: present is like walking on glass, and then when the
Speaker 1: future is this big black hole, you want to block
Speaker 1: all of it out. Your brain has no respite. You
Speaker 1: want to turn the whole thing off, and you want
Speaker 1: physical pain to override all.
Speaker 2: That, But you wouldn't have had the ability or the
Speaker 2: facility to kill yourself.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. The only hard thing in that cell
Speaker 1: in RSTL were the tiles in the bathroom, And so
Speaker 1: when I was on the toilet, I would stare at
Speaker 1: the tiles and fantasize it'd be tantalizingly close to just
Speaker 1: bash my head against it. And even if I thought,
Speaker 1: even if I didn't die, would have the pain to
Speaker 1: distract me?
Speaker 2: Is that? I was going to say? Do they break
Speaker 2: you when I And that's that's the interrogation center. When
Speaker 2: you're in jail, it's clear you're not broken because you're
Speaker 2: causing you're doing all sorts of things to reassert yourself.
Speaker 1: As Claire are you from the Australian says you were
Speaker 1: Captain fun.
Speaker 2: Well, you were the the Did they break you?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Ow? Why? How did you? How did you keep yourself together?
Speaker 2: With one stage You're sitting there between people for hours
Speaker 2: on end, not allowed to move.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was that? That's rsd L.
Speaker 2: That's RSDL stands.
Speaker 1: For residential Surveillance at a Designated location. And first of all, designate.
Speaker 1: That location doesn't mean squat, it's just whatever wherever they
Speaker 1: put you. And in fact it was one hundred meters
Speaker 1: away from the detention facility, which is where you go
Speaker 1: after you're arrested, so it is it's not benign at all.
Speaker 1: And then residential, how do you call that residential? It's
Speaker 1: worse than the usual solitary confinement. It's worse than a
Speaker 1: little dungeon, because in a dungeon at least you can
Speaker 1: you can cry, you can scream, you can you have
Speaker 1: freedom in that way. Or as yeah, you have to
Speaker 1: be you have to sit perfectly, you have to open
Speaker 1: your eyes and be stared at by these two people
Speaker 1: for how long day? Thirteen hours a day, sit still
Speaker 1: thirty Well, there were about three or four breaks of
Speaker 1: ten minutes where you can walk between the two guards
Speaker 1: who form this one meter wide human tunnel, and you
Speaker 1: just walk the one and a half meters to.
Speaker 2: Thet What are you sitting there? Are they asking you questions?
Speaker 2: They're interrogating, They don't talk to you.
Speaker 1: I would I even wanted to be interrogated. As painful
Speaker 1: as that was, at least it took your mind off things,
Speaker 1: and it was something to do so I would go
Speaker 1: for days having a only said a few words.
Speaker 2: And this is what a form of torture to break you,
Speaker 2: to get you to do what's.
Speaker 1: An exactly, to sign confessions, to be on video and
Speaker 1: confess and then, as they call it, then they've done
Speaker 1: their jobs.
Speaker 2: Which you did in the end, Yes, I did to
Speaker 2: stop that.
Speaker 1: Well, even if I didn't, I think I would just
Speaker 1: have been sentenced longer.
Speaker 2: Did you expect any rights? I mean, September twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: you're at work, or you're called into work, you're put
Speaker 2: into the fancy BMW's and off you go. Did you
Speaker 2: expect to have any basic human rights? Or did you think,
Speaker 2: well that's it?
Speaker 1: Well the first day I thought I would be able
Speaker 1: to call a lawyer. How stupid was I?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, yeah, no, no, so the lawyer. I
Speaker 1: didn't see my lawyer until ten months later.
Speaker 2: And RSDL How long were there six months? Six months
Speaker 2: of interrogation and torture? Yes?
Speaker 1: Then were then about one hundred meters down in the
Speaker 1: garage in the same facility. I thought I would be
Speaker 1: going somewhere with space and seeing grass and sky, but no,
Speaker 1: it's another cell.
Speaker 2: What was that like? Was it better than rstl.
Speaker 1: Oh massive upgrade.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because actually the food wasn't bad.
Speaker 1: The food was good in RSDL. That was the only
Speaker 1: good thing about RSDL. But the rest, I mean, I
Speaker 1: would take starvation over RSDL. Yeah, starvation with somebody else
Speaker 1: is actually preferable.
Speaker 2: And how were you treated in jail?
Speaker 1: It's called detention?
Speaker 2: Detention, Yeah, but it sounds like after school.
Speaker 1: I know. I see it as a lot worse than
Speaker 1: jail because you are in the same room for years
Speaker 1: with the same people. Whereas in jail, yes, you have
Speaker 1: to perform labor, but you see a lot more your
Speaker 1: brain gets stimulated, whereas I can see it in my
Speaker 1: cell mates. If they don't actively study and exercise and talk,
Speaker 1: the brain atrophies very fast. They start to forget the
Speaker 1: simplest things and they just start to lose lose the
Speaker 1: will to do anything.
Speaker 2: Did you were in the cell with two or three
Speaker 2: women time other women and you didn't always get on
Speaker 2: but you know, as you say, Captain Farm was trying
Speaker 2: to keep things going. And look after the morale, did
Speaker 2: they take you out of the cell, do they keep
Speaker 2: questioning you? What do they do? Well?
Speaker 1: By the time you get to detention. The interrogations usually
Speaker 1: stop because you've already signed your confession and all you
Speaker 1: do is wait. I call it the cold room of
Speaker 1: the judicial factory. So the abatoir is RSDL and then
Speaker 1: we're just kept there and then go to the supermarket,
Speaker 1: which is jail.
Speaker 2: So when did you go to the joe?
Speaker 1: I didn't.
Speaker 2: You didn't.
Speaker 1: I was sentenced two years and eleven months, and that
Speaker 1: meant that I had already served there.
Speaker 2: I served it, and that was that your trial.
Speaker 1: You got two years and eleven months, yes, which which when
Speaker 1: you think about it, is an absurd sentence, especially for
Speaker 1: a state security case, which you know, if you think
Speaker 1: of the starting meter for a taxi, which is three
Speaker 1: is three years minimum. And I got sentenced to two
Speaker 1: years and eleven months because had they sentenced me to
Speaker 1: three years, that would have coincided with the exact date
Speaker 1: of our Prime Minister Albanezy's visit to China.
Speaker 2: And that's why it happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, you do the maths. I mean our viewers
Speaker 1: and listeners can do the maths.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but as you can understand, it's diffult to comprehend
Speaker 2: that there's we've got a judge sitting there, and there's
Speaker 2: these dreadful treatment of you and the judges being influenced
Speaker 2: by political considerations. So the judge is being told what
Speaker 2: to do. Of course, he gave you you were not that,
Speaker 2: didn't he.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he was happy to see me go earlier
Speaker 1: than otherwise, but.
Speaker 2: He told you, he sort of gave you the indication
Speaker 2: before official sentencing that you would be okay.
Speaker 1: Maybe he was afraid that I would faint in court
Speaker 1: or something. They do make you wear that giant nappy,
Speaker 1: what yes to go to court? They make you were
Speaker 1: an adult nappy just in case you crap your pants.
Speaker 2: If you could do that, you would done a lot earlier.
Speaker 1: Actually, that is so true.
Speaker 2: I love the way you were using music. Well, the
Speaker 2: things that kept you going was books and music basically,
Speaker 2: that's right. How many books did you read?
Speaker 1: More than three hundred?
Speaker 2: Favorite one? And oh that's that's so hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it depends which which stage you're in. So
Speaker 1: in the first stage, it was just anything that was
Speaker 1: that had lots and lots of words and very very dense,
Speaker 1: you know, like I need time to understand that sort
Speaker 1: of book. But then later when I could get more books,
Speaker 1: I was less stringent about the length of the book,
Speaker 1: but some of the poems that I loved, I would
Speaker 1: just replace the drudgery of the cell with the imagery
Speaker 1: of the poetry.
Speaker 2: It's all about the power of the mind. And have
Speaker 2: you always put like that or have you sort of
Speaker 2: skipped through life having a party here and there.
Speaker 1: I think because some terrible things have happened in my
Speaker 1: life before the arrest. For example, I thought, if I
Speaker 1: could get up in the morning after being bashed so
Speaker 1: hard by my husband at the time than the father
Speaker 1: of my children, that I lost feeling in one part
Speaker 1: of my face, and I had blue bruises in my
Speaker 1: arms and legs and you know, black eye and all that,
Speaker 1: and I could get up. I could make breakfast for
Speaker 1: my kids as usual, and I could go to the
Speaker 1: sports you know, they had a parent's sports day at
Speaker 1: my daughter school. If I could do all that with
Speaker 1: all the bruises, after someone so dear to me did
Speaker 1: that to me, then what is what is the few
Speaker 1: strangers interrogating you and torturing you.
Speaker 2: But you're also, as you described publicly as nineteen year old, yeah,
Speaker 2: raped in your own house by an intruder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what I got out of that was one.
Speaker 1: Anything could happen at any time, so personal safety is
Speaker 1: a priority concern. And also I took all of the
Speaker 1: kindnesses that I experienced from the police officers, the forensic scientists,
Speaker 1: social workers and lawyers. And the fact that he was
Speaker 1: he pleaded guilty, he went to jail, there was closure,
Speaker 1: and that my faith in human goodness never wavered.
Speaker 2: Your faith in human goodness never wavered despite a man
Speaker 2: breaking into your house an assaulting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I actually worried about him being killed
Speaker 1: or oh, I guess assaulted in jail? Why a young
Speaker 1: Aboriginal man. And at a time was it a man
Speaker 1: called Daniel who committed suicide in a cell in Queensland.
Speaker 1: That was quite quite a famous case. And in fact
Speaker 1: he had told me when he held me hostage that
Speaker 1: his name was Daniel, and he wasn't.
Speaker 2: But you've been held hostage, raped by a stranger, you've
Speaker 2: been bashed by somebody very close to you, You've.
Speaker 1: I was also bashed by a vagrant in Shanghai, just
Speaker 1: out of the blue, well actually not out of the blue,
Speaker 1: because I was showing three friends from Ballina around Shanghai
Speaker 1: and this guy must have thought, oh, Chinese woman with
Speaker 1: you know, foreigners bitch and just came up and badly.
Speaker 1: My nose was a bit cooked for a few days.
Speaker 2: So you've been through all, Liz, and here you sit,
Speaker 2: laughing at times and talking calmly about it all. Are
Speaker 2: you that resilient?
Speaker 1: I have a lot of ways to channel my energies
Speaker 1: and I get I derive so much enjoyment from even
Speaker 1: the most little things. So I just took before I
Speaker 1: came here, Neil. I just took mom to the Good
Speaker 1: Food and Wine Show, and the fact that I tasted
Speaker 1: something really interesting called finger lime cavia, and just the
Speaker 1: idea that you can make finger lime into cavia, these tiny,
Speaker 1: beautiful listening pink you know crystals, and the way it
Speaker 1: bursts onto your tongue. It's life is great.
Speaker 2: I love your singing of songs and teaching people. And
Speaker 2: you actually tweak the words of John Lennon's Imagine. You
Speaker 2: remember the words that.
Speaker 1: You came up with a little yeah, I love the
Speaker 1: bit where I say they get on the piss.
Speaker 2: Can you recite some of the words to me? Imagine?
Speaker 1: Imagine? There's no detention. It's easy if you try, no
Speaker 1: guards something trampling our rights. Yeah, and may say that
Speaker 1: I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Speaker 2: It's a great song. The other thing that's that really
Speaker 2: jumped out, And.
Speaker 1: You know what, I also tried to teach q San
Speaker 1: to myself, but then we got stuck at the bit
Speaker 1: where I was explaining Hong Kong mattress. Of course my
Speaker 1: cell mate is from Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine the imitating Jimmy Barnes. I love that. Oh,
Speaker 2: I love this image of women sitting in the cell
Speaker 2: singing case at exactly have you met him?
Speaker 1: No, I'd love to.
Speaker 2: I think I think it will. I think you could.
Speaker 2: Your love letter to Australia. There's another thing that stood
Speaker 2: out to me, and that was that was read in
Speaker 2: this country, was read publicly, got a lot of attention.
Speaker 2: What prompted that.
Speaker 1: So I had been waiting to be sentenced. I was
Speaker 1: already there. I'd already been there for three years, and
Speaker 1: I thought, I miss Australia so much and I want
Speaker 1: people to know so. And the thing is, you never
Speaker 1: know when the embassy will visit, when I can get
Speaker 1: the message out, So I had to craft it in
Speaker 1: my head and keep rehearsing it every day until one
Speaker 1: day the door just opens and says, you know, O three,
Speaker 1: which is my code, get ready for your visit. So
Speaker 1: once I did that, I felt relieved that I had
Speaker 1: sent out a message of my own. And of course
Speaker 1: Dad said, not a good idea, but I'm glad Nick
Speaker 1: read it out on seven point thirty and the officers
Speaker 1: there hated the fact that it got so much public
Speaker 1: attention and garnered so much support for me.
Speaker 2: It gave you some comfort issue irretiting them.
Speaker 1: Yes, feeling their anger is gratifying because it means that
Speaker 1: we had an impact.
Speaker 2: How much of what that letter do you remember now?
Speaker 1: Oh? Most of it?
Speaker 2: Because yeah, what was the most important we have? That's
Speaker 2: a silly wad. But tell me what comes to your
Speaker 2: mind now of that love letter to Australia.
Speaker 1: Of course, in the documentary, for example, they share a
Speaker 1: little bit of it which is about the nature. But
Speaker 1: for me, what's more important is the warmth of the people.
Speaker 1: And as I said, how many Chinese would go on
Speaker 1: air like you did and say we must, we must
Speaker 1: bring so and so home, you know, to speak up
Speaker 1: for someone who's a different color, who was born in
Speaker 1: a different country but has now called this country home.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't happen in China, No, And.
Speaker 1: In fact, many Chinese who come here remain in this bubble.
Speaker 1: Go to Asian groceries, go to Chinese restaurants, go to
Speaker 1: China for holidays, and they don't even know what's happening
Speaker 1: in the mainstream world. And I'd love to see more integration,
Speaker 1: more acceptance, more integration.
Speaker 2: Is it a racist country? Oh, China is very racist, Yes,
Speaker 2: towards anybody is.
Speaker 1: Non Chinese, and there's a hierarchy whit whites are good
Speaker 1: and then any colored sort of races are seen as inferior.
Speaker 1: I remember having this argument with my cell mates. They said,
Speaker 1: if my because we all have daughters, if my daughter
Speaker 1: married saw, you know, was dating a black man, I
Speaker 1: would disown it. And I said, why when you are
Speaker 1: when you're racist, when you are subjected to racism, how
Speaker 1: do you feel? I said no, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: I said, so why do you do it to others?
Speaker 1: And they can't answer me. It's just ingrained.
Speaker 2: I was one of many who stood up and argued
Speaker 2: that Chang Lei, the Australian citizen Chinese born Australian citizen
Speaker 2: being held in China on trumped up charges had to
Speaker 2: be freed and the Australian government should be shouting about it.
Speaker 2: A lot of people did that. A lot of people
Speaker 2: did more than I did, much much more. But for
Speaker 2: that reason, those very anxious, very keen to interview Chang
Speaker 2: Lay now back in Australia out of jail nearly two years,
Speaker 2: about her experience about the country, about the future, and
Speaker 2: what Australia needs to know and think about China. We've
Speaker 2: established there's no human rights in the system in China.
Speaker 1: Well to them, they think they've already improved so much
Speaker 1: because it used to be much much worse and it's
Speaker 1: just different standards of humanity.
Speaker 2: What about executions, Yeah, well I'm getting I was talking
Speaker 2: about the other day who's been a world lead and
Speaker 2: abolishing abolishing capital punishment, a lawyer who's represented a number
Speaker 2: of people on death row, some of whom have died,
Speaker 2: and he said, we just don't know how many people
Speaker 2: China executes. Is that right? We don't know anything, but
Speaker 2: would have been common? Is execution common?
Speaker 1: What I do know is that someone I interviewed was
Speaker 1: executed for corruption. I mean a huge number and possibly
Speaker 1: also not She's best friend.
Speaker 2: Nothing we can do about that. That limit change.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing.
Speaker 2: I don't think of respect for human life. What is it?
Speaker 1: Yes, because of the population size and the culture and
Speaker 1: the history that it shows in the language. For example,
Speaker 1: the masses are known as ants or chives, because with
Speaker 1: chives you can cut a whole bunch off and then
Speaker 1: it'll grow. So it's like you killed ten thousand people
Speaker 1: and then soon there will be ten thousand more. Of course,
Speaker 1: China is now faced with an aging population problem.
Speaker 2: I got a problem with rac people. I read you
Speaker 2: read about the rat people. What do you mean a
Speaker 2: younger generation of Chinese who don't want to go to work.
Speaker 1: Oh, there's life flat? Yeah, yeah, because they think it's
Speaker 1: all too hard.
Speaker 2: I think as you as you can see already, what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do is to get an understanding of
Speaker 2: the country.
Speaker 1: Good luck with that in one hour show.
Speaker 2: It's true, but some Australia has Australian public I think
Speaker 2: has an impression of China's being a bit dangerous, to
Speaker 2: be threatening, mysterious.
Speaker 1: It's a huge understanding gap. Think of how many Chinese
Speaker 1: people have been to Australia and understand English and can
Speaker 1: read about Australia and the other way around, and you know,
Speaker 1: in academia, in politics, in business and everything, they know
Speaker 1: so much more about us than we do about them.
Speaker 1: Why because it's harder, I think, and also because Chinese
Speaker 1: people have been repressed for so long and they want
Speaker 1: to go abroad and learn things, and perhaps we don't
Speaker 1: have the same curiosity my Chinese.
Speaker 2: Well friends of mine Chinese say the Chinese people are
Speaker 2: very good, decent people. It's the government that's a problem.
Speaker 2: Is that fair?
Speaker 1: Yes and no, because the government is made of Chinese people.
Speaker 1: But then you also have decent people who are in government.
Speaker 1: But why are they still there?
Speaker 2: Is because this climate of fear and intimidation that you've
Speaker 2: been describing that you've been through, you've seen firsthand.
Speaker 1: I almost think it's genetic. I think if you look
Speaker 1: back in history, with each change of dynasty in China,
Speaker 1: the population gets halved, so it weeds out all the
Speaker 1: rebellious people. I think, Neil, you know you're lucky you
Speaker 1: weren't Chinese.
Speaker 2: Can you explain to me how the Chinese government sees Australia.
Speaker 1: I think for many years it wasn't seen as a
Speaker 1: priority strategically it was just seen as a middling country
Speaker 1: and we can make friendly noises towards But I think
Speaker 1: in recent years they're very concerned about aucus. They think
Speaker 1: that that alliance means some sort of daring to provoke China.
Speaker 1: But then they also think they can do a lot
Speaker 1: to get Australia back in line. But I don't think.
Speaker 2: But how's Australia in any way a threat to China
Speaker 2: because we've got a miniscule defense force by comparison. We'll
Speaker 2: talk about that later. We sort of wander through life
Speaker 2: and we really want to get along with China because
Speaker 2: we need the money. Yes, you use the term in
Speaker 2: visible prison. What do you mean?
Speaker 1: I mean if we every time China retaliates when we
Speaker 1: think we have just expressed our values, and then we
Speaker 1: back off a little and then we think things are
Speaker 1: right again. It's a bit like being in an abusive
Speaker 1: domestic relationship where I used to start to bite my tongue,
Speaker 1: my personality change because I was afraid of my then
Speaker 1: husband's outrage and then the outburst and then having to
Speaker 1: clean up the stuff that is smashed or things that
Speaker 1: is done, so I would then but rate myself. Why
Speaker 1: did I say that if only I hadn't angered him,
Speaker 1: then he wouldn't do that to the extent that I
Speaker 1: was really in an invisible prison, and countries can also
Speaker 1: start to back off bit by bit.
Speaker 2: So it's China keeping Australia in an invisible prison because
Speaker 2: they have the economic power absolutely and therefore our lead.
Speaker 1: And also they can do things like hostage diplomacy that
Speaker 1: we can't do back.
Speaker 2: I've interviewed a lot of Prime ministers over the years.
Speaker 2: They're always very, very careful. I understand that to an extent,
Speaker 2: and diplomacy is a complex area. But do they need
Speaker 2: to stand up more often and beat the Australian drum.
Speaker 1: I think China, as it gets mightier and mightier, is
Speaker 1: forcing more and more countries to do that. But if
Speaker 1: Western democracies can have some sort of consensus about still
Speaker 1: standing up for human rights and protecting our citizens and
Speaker 1: our values, then I don't think that's going to lead
Speaker 1: to war. It's just about setting boundaries. I wish now
Speaker 1: in my marriage that I had set those boundaries instead
Speaker 1: of out of fear, out of love, even to put
Speaker 1: up with it.
Speaker 2: You love the man who bassed you, I did.
Speaker 1: I loved the kids that we had together.
Speaker 2: The invisible prison, the economic power? Is that what Belton
Speaker 2: roads about, as you know, a very contentious issue in
Speaker 2: Victoria because Daniel Andrews sort of the answer that life
Speaker 2: thing verse and everything and went off to China without
Speaker 2: media and even knows what happened there.
Speaker 1: But he's still got business ventures there, right he.
Speaker 2: Has, I think so. Yeah, But because he's not a
Speaker 2: public figure, so we don't know.
Speaker 1: That's why when he was a public figure, he didn't
Speaker 1: raise my case with the Chinese officials.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, even with DEFAT notes to do so.
Speaker 2: So what DEFAT asked him to raise it and he didn't,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 1: How do we know that because my colleague at Sky
Speaker 1: applied for the freedom of information documents that he did
Speaker 1: have those talking points from DEFAT.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But how we know he didn't raise.
Speaker 1: It because he said he didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't. I thought he wouldn't answer it. But he
Speaker 2: did say he didn't, Okay, he didn't.
Speaker 1: He said I didn't see anyone in the judicial system,
Speaker 1: therefore I didn't raise it. Okay, But that's not the point.
Speaker 1: The point was to raise it whenever we could, of.
Speaker 2: Course, of course, so Belton Rode clearly as part of that.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that being discussed at the moment.
Speaker 2: What about Taiwan. I noticed the Policy Institute saying that
Speaker 2: only only in the past few days that Taiwan is
Speaker 2: the trigger point potentially between Australia and China. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that China is probably and I've heard this many times
Speaker 2: over the years, they're probably preparing to invade Taiwan.
Speaker 1: What do you believe, well, economic blockade, certainly, and I
Speaker 1: worry about what that's going to do to our overseas
Speaker 1: Chinese community, Chinese as in mainlanders, Hong Konger's Taiwanese, Lasian, Chinese,
Speaker 1: et cetera. They're all going to have very different views
Speaker 1: about what the Chinese mainland does with Taiwan and every
Speaker 1: you know, I had to watch, unfortunately for three years
Speaker 1: the state news, the propaganda, and day they have a
Speaker 1: few minutes on the military, and you just don't see
Speaker 1: that in any other country. It's all about how prepared
Speaker 1: we are and how Taiwan's always trying to provoke us.
Speaker 2: But some people obviously see Taiwan as and the conflict
Speaker 2: if it happens between China and Taiwan mainland China and
Speaker 2: Taiwan as being a trigger for conflict in the Pacific
Speaker 2: Australia I canna say unequivocally, not quite unequivocally, but strongly
Speaker 2: supporting Taiwan. Is there any possibility that you see of
Speaker 2: a war footing between Australia and China?
Speaker 1: Not at this point. But I don't I don't think
Speaker 1: anyone five years ago could have foreseen what's happening in
Speaker 1: the world now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do we do with build up the military?
Speaker 2: But we're so far behind.
Speaker 1: And Trump and luckily we're so far away.
Speaker 2: What about the ships circumnavigating Australia. What was that about buildings?
Speaker 2: It seemed to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's projecting it's power, not just in Japan and
Speaker 1: around the Philippines, but.
Speaker 2: Now now here is China expansionist? Does it? Does the
Speaker 2: country want to expand or does it? Does it want
Speaker 2: to control?
Speaker 1: It wants control. I don't think it has the wherewithal
Speaker 1: to really invade. I'm not doing about Taiwan because that
Speaker 1: it sees as just taking it back. But it's just showing,
Speaker 1: showing off its muscle. And another thinks it's a great power.
Speaker 2: Well it is, isn't it. It's very powerful.
Speaker 1: But I okay, it's in all the physical senses of
Speaker 1: the word. It is very powerful. But look at how
Speaker 1: it tries to make up lies to tarnish my reputation,
Speaker 1: how it sends you know, all the political leaders send
Speaker 1: their kids overseas. I think in terms of values beliefs,
Speaker 1: it's it's not attracting people to go and live there.
Speaker 2: Is it. No, I wouldn't even visit if they'd let
Speaker 2: me in. One thing we seem particularly tolerant about. And
Speaker 2: maybe it's Australian naivety, the you know, she'll be right, mate.
Speaker 2: China doesn't and other countries. But China does a significant
Speaker 2: amount of spying on Australia, doesn't it. Yes, I went hacking,
Speaker 2: spying monitoring. There was even the head of ASIO saying
Speaker 2: that they had friends in high places effectively, well not
Speaker 2: Chinese agents, but friends of Chinese agents in very high places.
Speaker 2: How dangerous is that? Why do they do?
Speaker 1: I think what's even more? Okay? Two things are more dangerous.
Speaker 1: One is the insidious fear because of its influence, because
Speaker 1: the Communist Party is so omnipresent that, for example, I
Speaker 1: heard before the election of some arguments going on in
Speaker 1: Wei chat groups of people who are resident in Melbourne,
Speaker 1: and for example, is the head of the Wei chat
Speaker 1: group said if anyone talks about Hong Kong independence or
Speaker 1: Taiwan independence, I'm going to kick them out. And then
Speaker 1: when somebody dared to stand up to him, there was
Speaker 1: this guy boasted about, Oh, I've been here for years.
Speaker 1: I have friends in both the liberals and the labor parties,
Speaker 1: and this is you know, I'm basically laying down the
Speaker 1: law and was I thinking of the other thing? That's
Speaker 1: dangerous the thing, it's the subtle influence part. It's when
Speaker 1: people think that anyone pro China is better for them,
Speaker 1: for the business, for the families, for all concerned, and
Speaker 1: they're voting around that without even really understanding the politics.
Speaker 1: As I have been telling my bosses lately, I don't
Speaker 1: know of any Chinese person who watches Sky. They all
Speaker 1: get their news from what's in Chinese, which is ABC
Speaker 1: and SBS have Chinese articles.
Speaker 2: So there's the spying though. Do they colleck this information
Speaker 2: in somewhere somewhere in China there's a big office full
Speaker 2: of information about Australia.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm in close contact with Eric, the spy who
Speaker 1: outed himself to Azio and was part of the Four
Speaker 1: Corners special last year, and I'm helping him with writing
Speaker 1: a book about how exactly China's spy's work.
Speaker 2: Is TikTok dangerous?
Speaker 1: Just kind of funny because it's a fake spy helping
Speaker 1: a real.
Speaker 2: Is TikTok dangerous.
Speaker 1: In what way?
Speaker 2: Well? As a mechanism of infiltration? Which would your kids
Speaker 2: on TikTok?
Speaker 1: They watch they go on Quasho, which is another version
Speaker 1: of TikTok?
Speaker 2: But TikTok has been effectively banned by governments, as was Wawei.
Speaker 2: Of course, Yes, the phones? Is that? Is that an
Speaker 2: overreaction or is that realistic? Is is China capable of
Speaker 2: using my mobile phone or your kids on TikTok as
Speaker 2: a means of gathering information?
Speaker 1: I don't see it as being that dangerous at the moment,
Speaker 1: but I mean kids absorbed so much from social media.
Speaker 2: It was put to me a few years ago, and
Speaker 2: there was some video which seemed to support it that
Speaker 2: there were Chinese agents operating in this country who would
Speaker 2: go and directly intimidate Chinese students that might be protests.
Speaker 2: Is that correct? Yes? Do they use their families.
Speaker 1: The families in China.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, here's your mother by the way. Yeah, that happens.
Speaker 1: As in intimidate my mother.
Speaker 2: No no, no, no no, no, not in your case,
Speaker 2: but student on the street. We don't like where they're doing,
Speaker 2: we go and tell them stop doing it. And by
Speaker 2: the way, we just talked to your mother.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so they'll use families too.
Speaker 1: That is a classic Chinese government tactic. For example, my
Speaker 1: friend who works in a US media organization that sometimes covers,
Speaker 1: of course China, you know, stories that are critical about China,
Speaker 1: and her family gets intimidated all the time and she
Speaker 1: doesn't dare go back to China.
Speaker 2: Now, have you got family in China? Stio?
Speaker 1: I do?
Speaker 2: And are they targeted because you are speaking out?
Speaker 1: No, but they're quite distant. And there is an even
Speaker 1: very pro CCP Auntie who kind of refuses to acknowledge
Speaker 1: me as a result of what happened.
Speaker 2: She believes it.
Speaker 1: Well, my dad finds it totally inexcusable because she was
Speaker 1: a victim of their persecution for many, many years and
Speaker 1: the whole family was tortured, and now she's pro CCP.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, the kool aid is very strong.
Speaker 2: June last year, the Chinese officials tried to block you
Speaker 2: at our own parlor house during a media event. I
Speaker 2: was disappointed by the Prime Minister's response, which seemed to
Speaker 2: me to be a little bit week What was your response.
Speaker 1: I think we can all do better. I think maybe
Speaker 1: our people were caught off guard by what.
Speaker 2: An outrageous thing to do in your own parliament.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it was just such a bad look
Speaker 1: that nobody saw it coming.
Speaker 2: On something else. The Global Times, as I said, I've
Speaker 2: been reading it. I often have a look at it.
Speaker 2: The Global Times warned in the past couple of days,
Speaker 2: the Port of Darwin, yes contentious taken well effectively sold
Speaker 2: to China, a Chinese company. And they said if it
Speaker 2: was and now this talk of taking it back, yes,
Speaker 2: from selling it to service Yeah. And they said if
Speaker 2: that happened, there would be enduring pitfalls for the country,
Speaker 2: this country. Why do they want the Port of Darwin
Speaker 2: so badly? Why do they want that control?
Speaker 1: Well, they want the port because it's a good Belton
Speaker 1: road trophy and they also don't want it to set
Speaker 1: a precedent that countries can take assets back as as
Speaker 1: a show of.
Speaker 2: You know, Chinese investment, not nefarious like using it as
Speaker 2: a base at some stage or having it there available
Speaker 2: as some sort of military base. Nothing that nefarious.
Speaker 1: My understanding of Chinese defense strategy is very limited, and
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Look like you wouldn't trust them though. No, No, it
Speaker 2: was a bizarre decision in the first place. I can
Speaker 2: never quite understand what happened.
Speaker 1: Well, it was those naive days as you as you say,
Speaker 1: I think we've all come a long way in the
Speaker 1: past ten years.
Speaker 2: And where are we now in the relationship between the
Speaker 2: two countries.
Speaker 1: I think we're probably at a turning point. We're a
Speaker 1: lot more alert aware, and I just hope we turn
Speaker 1: that into action, into more understanding.
Speaker 2: See, what is the ultimate danger to Australia from China?
Speaker 2: I mean it's not invasions. It might be economic control.
Speaker 2: What is the ultimate danger to Australia.
Speaker 1: You don't think the economic control is dangerous enough. I mean,
Speaker 1: if we can't be ourselves, we may as well be
Speaker 1: living in China. I mean, where do we draw the
Speaker 1: line if if we can't tell them off in Canberra,
Speaker 1: in Parliament, in our own Parliament house, can you imagine
Speaker 1: that happening in China? At the Great Hall of the
Speaker 1: People if Australian officials tried to block a Chinese journalist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well exactly. But I mean does that economic control
Speaker 2: get to the point and you talked about you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't survive very long on radio and China rubby
Speaker 2: things sometimes, well Daniel Andrews would agree with. But is
Speaker 2: it ultimately that economic control. So you've got a Chinese
Speaker 2: control of perhaps the company that owns a radio station. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and somebody's causing trouble, so the pressure is put on
Speaker 2: by the manager. They get them off. Is that? What
Speaker 2: is that? What you mean that sort of thing, get
Speaker 2: rid of them Mitchell's causing trouble, sacking.
Speaker 1: Well, no, I don't mean that they're going to own
Speaker 1: assets in Australia and control that way. I just meant,
Speaker 1: because we're so reliant on our exports to China, our
Speaker 1: economy on it, and therefore our politicians and policies, then
Speaker 1: we are going to tone down our criticism.
Speaker 2: Your summer, well, one of the things most emotional things
Speaker 2: in the book I've found was you spoke to your
Speaker 2: children once in the time you were incarcerated three years
Speaker 2: and two months, three years and two months on the phone.
Speaker 1: And this was because Albanezi and she met at G
Speaker 1: twenty because from the first day the Australian embassy had
Speaker 1: been asking for a phone call. And I know that
Speaker 1: other countries detainees had got phone calls with their families before,
Speaker 1: so it's not an unheard of thing. And I even said,
Speaker 1: if you can't do a phone call, how about you
Speaker 1: just play me at Christmas? Play me a recording of
Speaker 1: their voices?
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 1: They said, But it wasn't. But then because they made
Speaker 1: this conscious decision to improve relations after we changed governments,
Speaker 1: then they said, oh, we'll be so benevolent and give
Speaker 1: you this phone call.
Speaker 2: So they're that much more accepting of a labor government
Speaker 2: in Australia.
Speaker 1: Well, if you look at it like a game of chess,
Speaker 1: is this is then their move? And I was the
Speaker 1: pawn in there too, So by giving me something, they
Speaker 1: were sending this positive signal and they hoped that the
Speaker 1: Labor government would forget all that's happened and reset relation,
Speaker 1: the relationship as it were.
Speaker 2: Can it be reset long term? You say we're a
Speaker 2: turning point? What are what are the paths? What's the
Speaker 2: fork in the road?
Speaker 1: I think we're going from a fairly naive, straightforward you know,
Speaker 1: lovely friendly fer people to people exchanges and semi cautious
Speaker 1: business relationship and gangbusters trade relationship to much more cautious
Speaker 1: and thoughtful on every.
Speaker 2: Front from both sides.
Speaker 1: Well, they've always been cautious and thoughtful, I think on
Speaker 1: our side.
Speaker 2: Tell me about that phone call.
Speaker 1: It's it had. I had dreamt of it for months
Speaker 1: and months. I didn't I didn't think it was going
Speaker 1: to happen. So when it did, and when I finally
Speaker 1: heard my son's voice first, it was just like suddenly
Speaker 1: I was a mum. Because how you survive is you
Speaker 1: force yourself into this disciplined You're almost like a robot.
Speaker 1: You know. I will do this. I will get through
Speaker 1: each day, and I have to keep my body strong
Speaker 1: and my mind clear and then not think about, not
Speaker 1: dwell on what I am missing and what the kids
Speaker 1: are missing.
Speaker 2: So it do make it more difficult in the days ahead, though,
Speaker 2: having had that reminder. I mean, obviously it's warm and
Speaker 2: emotional and it does important things for you, But does
Speaker 2: it make it harder to go back to the cell?
Speaker 1: No, because by then I had been so inured to
Speaker 1: pain and longing for family. I had all sorts of
Speaker 1: copy mechanisms, and I just loved the fact that our
Speaker 1: bond was strong as ever, and and that when I
Speaker 1: did see them again, it would be even better because
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be just their voices.
Speaker 2: As I said earlier, clearly a very resilient person. Things
Speaker 2: you've been through. But even resilient people go to a
Speaker 2: dark place at times. Where do you go.
Speaker 1: When I feel despondent? I well, now I like to write,
Speaker 1: I like to swim. I mean, you know, in the
Speaker 1: in the free world, there are many ways to get
Speaker 1: rid of the darkness. But in there you just use
Speaker 1: what you have. And I had people around me. I
Speaker 1: could talk to them, I could help them. I mean,
Speaker 1: the feel good from helping somebody else is much stronger
Speaker 1: and longer, longer lasting than doing something pleasurable for yourself.
Speaker 2: The people you were in you were in the cell with.
Speaker 2: Are they still there?
Speaker 1: I think they've gone to jail now.
Speaker 2: So you can't have any contact with them.
Speaker 1: No, And I tried to contact their families, but clearly
Speaker 1: they had been either spoken to by the State Security
Speaker 1: Ministry or they were.
Speaker 2: Just scared full stop, which would be reasonable, quite reasonable.
Speaker 2: How has all this changed you? How are you a
Speaker 2: different person?
Speaker 1: I can now very easily use my hair as dental floss. Obviously,
Speaker 1: this is now my plea to whoever's up there, stop
Speaker 1: testing me, because I've had enough. Okay, I'll get it.
Speaker 1: I'm strong, Okay, But.
Speaker 2: Seriously, because you'd come back and you'd be small things
Speaker 2: that irritate you irritate, did you find a short fuse
Speaker 2: or a more relaxed approach.
Speaker 1: I think I love I love life much more.
Speaker 2: We've done some stupid things.
Speaker 1: You in skydiving, that's not stupid.
Speaker 2: Why did you do that?
Speaker 1: Because it was my birthday and I wanted I hadn't
Speaker 1: done it before? Because okay, so when you're in jail,
Speaker 1: which I compared to a mini death, you have all
Speaker 1: these regrets, right, I thought, oh, why hadn't I taken
Speaker 1: my mom to Africa, for example? Or why didn't I
Speaker 1: take this risk or pursue that dream? And it's it's
Speaker 1: not at all about what you have, you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of things, It's all about what you can experience
Speaker 1: because they're the only things that stay with you.
Speaker 2: And so if you hadn't gone you've gone skydiving.
Speaker 1: I would have procrastinated. I thought, oh, maybe another few years.
Speaker 2: Maybe one day that mini death. Yeah, how do you do?
Speaker 2: How is jail me death? What do you mean?
Speaker 1: Because you realize there's nothing, you can't do anything. It's
Speaker 1: a bit like on your deathbed and you realize everything's
Speaker 1: shutting down. And that's what That's what it's like when
Speaker 1: you're there, you can't do anything. The life is going
Speaker 1: on without you, and you're there in a hole.
Speaker 2: Do you savor things more? Not just jumping out of aeroplanes,
Speaker 2: but well, like the fingerlime, do you notice things more?
Speaker 2: You savor things more. It's a lovely day. It's raining,
Speaker 2: but a lovely day.
Speaker 1: I always compare to what I was experiencing in detention,
Speaker 1: which was nothing. So I always have that counterpoint, and
Speaker 1: it's almost.
Speaker 2: Bring it back to yourself, to remind yourself.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, otherwise you've become blase again.
Speaker 2: I don't think you'll become blase about life, about freedom.
Speaker 1: I hope not to, and I try hard not to.
Speaker 1: H I mean, yes, the kids give me the shits
Speaker 1: a lot of the times, but then I think, how
Speaker 1: lucky am I? You know I can tell them off,
Speaker 1: they can shut back at me, and then you know
Speaker 1: before before bed, I'll be able to cuddle them.
Speaker 2: About thirty years ago, I was misdiagnosed the terminal illness,
Speaker 2: told I had a matter of three months to live.
Speaker 2: Oh no, Then after seventy two hours they work on.
Speaker 2: That was a big mistake. Get on with your life.
Speaker 1: How did you cope with seventy two hours?
Speaker 2: It was tough, but I vowed I would never get
Speaker 2: back on the treadmill. Yeah, I'd never you know the cliche,
Speaker 2: sweat the small stuff. I reckon within six months I
Speaker 2: was so's that's what I'm saying. You've maintained it now
Speaker 2: for how long have you been out? A year and
Speaker 2: a half, year and a half a bit more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's.
Speaker 2: Great, but it's an effort. You're not really doing stand
Speaker 2: up comedy.
Speaker 1: Well, I tried a small session last year and.
Speaker 2: How did it go? Tell me the joke joke?
Speaker 1: The worst thing was it turned out to be not
Speaker 1: about the stand up, but about the intimidation from the audience,
Speaker 1: because while it was a small audience, there were two
Speaker 1: spies who were recording, recording myself and dissident slash activist
Speaker 1: of course, and then there was also someone in the
Speaker 1: audience who was an impostor who told me that he
Speaker 1: was a dissident artist Badio Tael And it wasn't a month.
Speaker 1: Wasn't until a month later when I met the real
Speaker 1: Badiutel that I discovered there was an impost there. So,
Speaker 1: as you say, there's a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: money going into this infiltration influenced business.
Speaker 2: Of your stand up.
Speaker 1: No, I'm still collecting jokes. Oh sometimes I think of
Speaker 1: and it's so dark, it's probably not funny. So for example, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: after my rape, I used to sleep with a knife
Speaker 1: under my pillow, and I used to put furniture against
Speaker 1: the door because I had these dreams that somebody was
Speaker 1: breaking in and then in detention because there was nobody
Speaker 1: who could break in, and I would have wanted to
Speaker 1: break out. Yeah, you had to be.
Speaker 2: I love the last message from your jailers to don't
Speaker 2: write a book. Books.
Speaker 1: Well, when they see their names, I think their faces
Speaker 1: will blanche. But I am confident that I have been
Speaker 1: very honest and objective. If they did things, that's what
Speaker 1: I wrote that, I have not added mayo on anything.
Speaker 1: And if they were nice to me, I've also put
Speaker 1: it in the book.
Speaker 2: Just finally, on a semi serious point, the two messages
Speaker 2: are like from you as a person who understands both
Speaker 2: countries and the good and bad of both countries. So
Speaker 2: that matter. What's your message to Chinese people living in Australia.
Speaker 1: Please use your freedom, Please understand Australia and not just
Speaker 1: use Australia like you know, like in an extra marital relationship,
Speaker 1: like Australia is just the wife to come back to
Speaker 1: and China is the is the mistress, and you can
Speaker 1: go there for fun and buy things and all the
Speaker 1: excitement of their old lives and really love Australia.
Speaker 2: And your message to Australians about how they should view
Speaker 2: or deal with China and Chinese.
Speaker 1: People, Separate Chinese people and China and the regime.
Speaker 2: They are, and be a wharlmed, be warned about the regime.
Speaker 2: Do they need warning about the regime.
Speaker 1: Australians because of the lack of understanding, and also China's
Speaker 1: so closed to reporting by foreigners that you have very
Speaker 1: absolutist views on China. Somebody goes there, Oh, I had
Speaker 1: a great time. It's wonderful. That's you know, so good,
Speaker 1: such good technology or the high speed trade, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Or somebody reads about me and says, never go to China.
Speaker 1: It's dangerous. You'll be arrested right away. And the truth
Speaker 1: is somewhere in the middle. But I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be the one to say China's fine. To China.
Speaker 2: Where will we be in twenty years China Australia.
Speaker 1: Oh, where do you think?
Speaker 2: I don't know? You're the expert.
Speaker 1: If I was the expert, I wouldn't have got arrested.
Speaker 1: And can anyone be an expert?
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, and I really don't know. The ignorance
Speaker 2: or the lack of concern by Australians worries me at times.
Speaker 2: The invisible prison you talk about worries me at times.
Speaker 2: The parent reluctance of some of our leaders to at
Speaker 2: least publicly take a strong stand worries me at times.
Speaker 2: And I don't claim to have any understanding of China whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Where could we be in twenty years time?
Speaker 1: I mean, there are activists who are talking about a
Speaker 1: blueprint for governing China should there be a revolution. But
Speaker 1: then you know, we're coming up to the anniversary of
Speaker 1: during the fourth and a lot of people are still
Speaker 1: saying Oh, the students were wrong. They shouldn't have protested,
Speaker 1: and they brought the deaths upon themselves. It's so hard
Speaker 1: to know at any point in time the percentage of
Speaker 1: views on China one way or another.
Speaker 2: But do we need to be frightened in Australia.
Speaker 1: I think we need to have more understanding at least
Speaker 1: to know whether we should be frightened. But it's very
Speaker 1: hard to get this balanced view. So what happened to
Speaker 1: me obviously does not happened to everyone. But I hope
Speaker 1: people can try to understand why it's so paranoid, why
Speaker 1: it's trying to instill xenophobia in its people, and it's
Speaker 1: why it's so insecure about its governance.
Speaker 2: I said, we're winding up, but one last question, how
Speaker 2: will China handle Donald Trump? Oh? Too smart?
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's handling himself at the moment, China's just waiting
Speaker 1: for everyone else to get fed up with Donald Trump
Speaker 1: and then go China's way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Putin thought he could control him. We're not sure
Speaker 2: he is. Do you think China will out smart him?
Speaker 1: But does that smarting me?
Speaker 2: Well? I don't know why. Any economic battle at least.
Speaker 1: I almost think the US is going into a cultural
Speaker 1: revolution and it might take years a decade before we
Speaker 1: see things return.
Speaker 2: Really good to speak to you. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2: Mojo's back absolutely, I loved that line, the mojo. I've
Speaker 2: got my mojo back, And I had.
Speaker 1: A few drinks at the Good Food and why don't
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 2: Change? Thank you and good luck for the future.
Speaker 1: But we went off air just about it.
Speaker 2: What about you in twenty years time, when will you
Speaker 2: be What will you be doing? You won't be in China,
Speaker 2: I'll be betting. But what will you to be doing?
Speaker 1: Who knows? I mean, who knows if I'd be in China?
Speaker 1: In fact, when I think the Chinese consulate approached Sky
Speaker 1: about a possible journalist exchange, and you know, I'm thinking, hey,
Speaker 1: I'll go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not let keen on those exchanges either.
Speaker 1: Twenty years I'd be still kicking us and learning and growing.
Speaker 2: The Mojo's back, chum. Thank you very much, Thank you
Speaker 2: so much, Neil. Now, just before I leave you to
Speaker 2: your life, I want to first can congratulate you on
Speaker 2: showing the good sense to listen to my podcast. Neil
Speaker 2: Mitchell asks why there's one rule to this podcast. It's
Speaker 2: got to be interesting and different. I always try to
Speaker 2: get inside the head of the person I'm talking to
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