WEBVTT - Why China is a threat to Australia: With Cheng Lei 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:03.520 Nine podcasts. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.800 Australia's relationship with China is complex and problematic. I doubt 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.560 this country fully understands Chinese thinking, or at least the 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.960 thinking of the Chinese government the Communist Party. They send 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.680 ships to circumnavigate our country, the act of a bully. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.240 They impose trade sanctions and then scream about trade sanctions 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.560 imposed by others, the act of a bully. They still 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.199 have not answered fully to the origins of COVID. They 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:37.000 see human rights as and irritation. They execute more people 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.520 than we know for crimes we don't know. They lock 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.680 up our citizens, intimidate Chinese nationals in this country on 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.840 our streets. They spy on us, they hack us. We're 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.800 probably naive as to what foreign countries like China can 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.040 and will do with me. As a person who knows personally, 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.400 Chang Lai has been through hell, which means we need 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.120 to listen to her. Chinese born an Australian citizen, she 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.399 worked for eight years at a Chinese TV business channel, 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:11.000 stayed owned. She was arrested on bizarre trumped up chargers. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.280 Accused of spying, She was jailed, She was interrogated in 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.720 palling conditions. She served three years and two months in 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:23.080 custody and really still doesn't know why. She's been free 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.119 for just over a year, in fact, two years. In October, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.560 she's back living in Australia working on Sky News on 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.360 TIF which is something of a change from a communist 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.399 controlled station in China from the Communist Party to Sky 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.560 there's a difference. She's released a book, Chang Lai, a 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.160 Memoir of Freedom, which is released on Wednesday, the fourth 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.960 of June, and a documentary with Sky Chang Lay My Story, 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.240 which goes to at seven point thirty on Sky on 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.880 Tuesday the third of June. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.200 Chang LEI, thank you Neil for speaking up for me. 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.200 Look incarcerated, Well, a lot of people did. A lot 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.080 of people did before we get into what happened, and 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:05.600 I want to know what you see for the future 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.280 and how you interpret Australia's relationship with China. The name 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.520 of the podcast is Neil Mitchell asks why so you 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:17.200 were arrested interrogator six months eventually tried sort of sent 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.920 to jail And the question that kept coming to my 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.840 mind reading your book, why why do they do it? 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.120 I have a few theories as to why there is 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:33.360 the timeline of Australia asking for the investigation independent investigation 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.840 into the source of COVID, which enraged China. And on 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.240 the same day the man in charge of cleaning up 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.919 Uhan was arrested and three days later surveillance on me 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.440 and possibly other Australians will at least one other I 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.920 know of, started And at the trial they said that 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.880 was because I was being suspected because I was in 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.160 frequent contact with foreign journalists, which is absurd because I've 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.800 been doing that for twenty years and why shouldn't I 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.560 be as a foreign journalist if we could contact with 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:05.600 other foreign journalists. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.720 But they put extraordinary resources into it, didn't they. I mean, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.520 you were monitored and then interrogated for a long time. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.560 They put it an enormous amount of effort into it. 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.040 The Ministry of State Security has a very very generous budget, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.640 and I almost think that when they can't justify that 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.600 budget they grab people to make sure if the budget 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.280 doesn't get cut, to justify their own existence. Because as 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.839 far as I know, at the Beijing detention facility where 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.120 I was held supposedly for spies, they're only around thirty 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.240 two inmates. And to think there would have been three 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:49.000 officers per inmate, and the surveillance and just the ultra 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.160 tight security. It's a lot of money. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:53.800 I noticed I picked up a point in your book 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:55.680 about the budget because they've arrested you and put you 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.080 into a flash BMW to take you off to Yes 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.880 seven series, So it's sort of hostage to planetry. Really, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:02.760 that's what it's about. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.640 Well, and the fact that I was ethnically Chinese, especially 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.280 when and with others when they have when they're American 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:18.160 Chinese or Canadian Chinese, there's sort of we're seen as 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:24.320 easier targets because there's somehow it's somehow easier to suspect 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:29.440 us of not being loyal to either country. And there's 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.320 also the fact that I was critical of China's handling 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:38.360 of the pandemic in various social media posts, and China 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:46.600 is very what's the word vengeful when it comes to 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.839 anything any criticism about COVID. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.040 I think about a month after you we arrested. Wasn't 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.920 Bill Birtles from the OBC and Mike Smith, Yes, in 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.520 review they believe the country very quickly. Would that be 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.560 a similar reason, Well, neither of them Chinese origin. But 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:07.040 with that that's true. But three Australians at least. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:08.839 Yeah, at least they didn't have to go through what 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.720 I went through. But it certainly was all of it 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:13.760 was just trying to slap Australia in the face. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.240 There's another aspect of that too, I wondered, and I 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.120 thought about this with Bill Birdles and Mike Smith. If 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.400 they had been put through what you were put through, yep, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.480 I think the outrage in Australia would have been louder. 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.120 Do you think, I mean, was that relevant that you 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.040 could be as an Australian citizen treated the way you were, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.280 but because you're of Chinese heritage, Chinese origin, they didn't 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.040 expect anger in Australia. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:46.080 Yes, I think there's a After the two Canadian Michaels 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.480 who were arrested in China and a tit for tat 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:58.280 after Canada detained the Huawei CFO Mawan Joel, the outrage 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.960 there made the state security apparatus think again about grabbing 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.720 a hostage who is Caucasian. 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:09.920 How do they use that? Do they? How do they? 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.800 Nobody at any stage I assume from within the Chinese 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.599 system goes to the Australian governor says, well, you behave yourself. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.479 Look we've got of course not in China. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:20.640 Nothing is verbalized. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.040 That's sort of the subtle pressure. Look what we can 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.680 do a form of bullying. Really, that's right, subtle but 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.839 blatant subtle. Do you think they achieved what they wanted 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.839 to achieve all that money? I just kept looking at 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:35.480 the resources that went into. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.159 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even when I was at the halfway House. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:45.120 Three days before my freedom flight home, twelve officers booked 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.160 out a three star hotel on the outskirts of Beijing, 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.359 guarding me day and night, watching me sleep, just to 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.240 make sure that nobody knew, nobody got wind of the 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.839 fact that I was getting out. And it's about face, 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:07.840 although they have no shame. It's about the idea that 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.760 China has secure borders that nobody can infiltrate us. That's 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:18.080 for the Chinese audience obviously, and it's about look what 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:23.280 we can do to coerce other countries into behaving. But 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:30.880 I don't think they expected the backlash, as in the 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.680 how negative sentiment turned towards China as a concept the 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:42.560 rais country. Yes, exactly, and that unfortunately also resulted in 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:50.080 some racism towards Chinese Australians, which is terrible, but most 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.000 of it it's against the Communist Party. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.880 Where was the racism against Chinese Australia in this country? 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:02.240 Yes, really, maybe it's because of COVID and maybe it's 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:07.680 because of our I guess what's in the news headlines. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.720 You're guilty. Your guilt or innocence was irrelevant, obviously. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.520 But if you thought through, anyone can be made guilty 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.720 that I know of. That I'm sure of because just 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.800 speaking to the other cell mates and how flimsy all 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.080 of our cases were. It doesn't. I mean, it's a 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.440 closed trial. Mine went for ninety minutes, which when I 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.640 told Lawyer's Forum, they will laugh. They said, here, a 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.480 show trial is two weeks. There is really a show trial. 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.280 But I understand the motive behind it. So how they 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.680 provoke it, that's sort of it's a message to Australia. 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.000 But is this something you did? You mentioned breaching an embargo, 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:46.480 which is. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.480 An embargo that something journal no, no, no, no, an embargo 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.720 that nobody knew about until a year later in the 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.080 prosecution phase when the prosecutor saw the case threw it 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.720 back at the investigating officers. And said you need to 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.040 have a document that that talks about this so called 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.840 embargo time. And that's when they went to the Classification 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.400 Bureau and said, do up a document that says this, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:16.320 this was embargoed at until seven thirty. So, because here 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:20.080 when or when the American embassy used to send US 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.360 press releases, the embargo would be very clear on the document. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.839 It was not on this document I got. 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.000 I've broken a few myself. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:30.720 Thank you for making me feel better. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.680 Your father has been a direct critic of the Communist Party, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.760 and he described a non social media as an evil cult. Yes, 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.800 which a lot of people would find hard to disagree 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.520 with any part of the reason. I mean, they'd be 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.120 monitoring that, wouldn't they'd know what he was. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.240 But they did question me quite a bit about whether 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.480 I was close to my dad and why he felt 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:55.040 like that. And I mean, I'm sure they were monitoring 0:09:55.160 --> 0:10:01.000 his social media account, but he's here and he doesn't 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.679 have many followers. 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:06.199 Why did you? 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.400 But I think they were trying to get at the 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.320 way my mind works. You see. The whole difference with 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.160 the Chinese system, or perhaps the Communist system, is it's 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.959 all about the mind. It's about shaping your mind. It's 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:24.840 about brainwashing, and that's why they go to your parents, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.040 to your grandparents, your ancestry, and you know what you 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.920 do in order to arrive at this conclusion that you 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.720 are guilty because your dad hates the Communist Party, so 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.600 you must be a Communist hater and a trader to 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:39.200 the country, etc. 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:45.400 M did how did you? Why did you go to 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.240 work the way you're speaking now? Did you when you 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.720 went to work in the system, the Global Chinese Television Network, 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.960 which of course is basically state owned And I had 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.080 a look at it today, there's a lot of propaganda 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.199 in there. Why did you go and work there? Did you? 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.080 Did you think it would be different to what you 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:02.760 now see? 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:08.080 Well, this did not come in twenty twenty. I joined 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.240 its predecessor in two thousand and two when it was 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:17.640 still a fledgling English TV station, really needing somebody with 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:23.080 my skill set, which was business degree and education and 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:29.199 experience and bilingual, and I was an accountant feeling very 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.040 bored in the job, wanting to use that bilingual advantage 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:38.199 and report and change careers. So I was there for 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.439 a year and a half before I went to CNBC, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:47.440 which really taught me the real skills of TV, and 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.720 I was there for nine years before then coming back 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:55.160 to what then was rebrandedt CGTN. But that was because 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.760 the man who had hired me in two thousand and 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.600 two very persuasive, and he had been based in the US, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.200 and in fact, a lot of the middle managers there 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.920 were my old mates, and I thought that I would 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.040 really be making a change from within. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.040 So did you. But into your mind, I'm entering I'm 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.120 going to work for an organization which is really part 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:18.040 of the Communist. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.079 Party the way, so it's stretching it the way I 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.640 thought about it. English media, whether it's the state TV 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.840 station or a foreign TV station, the way they work 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.400 in China is much freer compared to Chinese mass media 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:39.839 because you really need a certain there's a barrier of 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.160 entry to understand English TV. And what the Chinese government 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.360 is most afraid of are the have nots, because they 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.760 can rebel, they don't care, they don't have anything to lose. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.840 If you can understand English, that means you're university educated. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.120 That means you probably have assets. They can get you 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.640 any of a number of You are not going to 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:02.600 chuck it all in. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.160 How far has Chinese security on that basis the Chinese 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.480 security apparatus to infiltrate the media, I mean, looking back, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.240 was it part of the global Chinese television network? Were 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.040 the people who you thought were you were friends or 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.880 certainly colleagues who were watching you on behalf of the 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:19.800 security authorities. 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.280 I don't believe that they were watching me. I believe 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:33.000 they could have installed some surveillance equipment in my apartment 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.160 because the way they rated it, they knew exactly where 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.760 I spent time and didn't go to the other rooms. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:44.920 I knew that a few colleagues had been spoken to 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.920 by the ministry, but at the time I thought that 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.000 was just parf of the course. You just if you 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.920 reported on general news and political news, then they were interested, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.360 and all they do is is have a chat to you. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.360 That's how they If. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.680 I was so, you don't think you were spied on 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.679 by colleagues, I. 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:11.360 Don't think so. But certainly they did pressure my former 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.040 colleagues to testify against me. Yes, with their testimonies. 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.080 Would it be normal procedure of working an organization that 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.720 to be a member of the Communist Party For. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.600 The Chinese media, the Chinese TV stations to get on 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.800 air you have to be a party member. For the 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.800 English channel, no, because the whole point is to have 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.080 native speakers and foreigners to be the on air talent. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.120 So you were never asked or directed to join the party. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.240 Were all foreign citizens. I didn't know that we could, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.560 or well not that anyone would have wanted to. And 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.680 in fact, many of the staff there, the producers and supervisors, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.400 were not Communist Party members. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.200 You mentioned the book a thing called a propaganda directive. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.360 Oh yes, now you. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.080 Can imagine the hackles going up after a lifetime in journalism. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.840 What is a propaganda directive? And were you subject to one? 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.040 So when I was at CNBC, they were in a 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.280 joint venture with the second largest media group in China, SMG, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.560 and because I was in their using their studios, I 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:24.040 saw their propaganda directives because they go around to all 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.200 the Chinese media organizations, and I used to have a 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.520 laugh just reading them. And one day when I tried 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.120 to photocopy one, I was kind of tapped on the 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.920 shoulder and I think people thought this is not good 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.160 for sharing with a foreign citizen. But by then I 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.600 had already seen quite a lot and the real Doozy 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.000 was in two thousand and eight, right before the Beijing Olympics. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.480 It was more than a dozen pages long, and there 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:01.600 were things like, do not criticize Putin's hairstyle and and 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.360 and get this. If there will be more than two 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:10.000 thousand foreign journalists coming to cover the Olympics, be cordial 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.280 to them. Do not confiscate their equipment, do not beat 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.560 them up, but do not let them find the people 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.760 they want to interview. And this is black and white. 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.480 So they're asking other journalists to stop the foreign journalists 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:24.320 from doing their job. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.800 Well, it's asking the media organizations, and it goes around 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.920 to other organizations, perhaps the police stations as well. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.920 I was in Beijing not long before the Olympics. I 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:37.560 went it might have been a year, but I did 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.480 a preview and looked some of the facilities were just 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.080 fascinating the city. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:42.600 I must have been on the same tour. Was it 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.360 the one organized by bocog. 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.000 No, it was just just us, but we did have 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.640 a government guide with us, who I assume was watching 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.440 what we did and of course making sure we behaved ourselves. Yes, 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.160 but I remember we were We had made all the 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.680 arrangements to broadcast from Teneman Square. We had the lines 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.480 in all the appropriate thing, the approval from everybody, and 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.440 the night before we got a message saying, no you 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:03.880 can't go. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.359 Oh, I said, what were you going to do. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.879 There's going to do the program live from tinam And Square. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.239 I've done it for the Great Wall, I've done it 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.000 from Changy I've done it from the Washington Monument. You 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.920 know here we are in a world famous spot. Nothing. Well, 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.240 we would have talked a bit about the history of 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.720 Tenam Square, obviously, and the message came through, No, you 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.680 can't do it. Here's the written authority, We've got everything. Yeah, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:26.560 we'll do it. No, no you wan't to it. Well, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.560 I'll send my producer down and he will report on 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.240 his mobile phone. And the message came back, yes you 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.680 can do that, but we'll arrest him. Wow. Would that 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:34.280 be true? 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.520 Of course. I think what they might have done, as 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.760 I know, is the process is when it comes to foreigners, 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.880 foreign journalists, they will go and look up everything you've 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.199 reported on and yeah, Neil, you would have had, you know, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:52.960 lots of red flags. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:54.919 The funny end to it has ended up interviewing that 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.399 on the last own Beijing Broadcasting for the hotel room 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.560 because we couldn't get to TMN Square only your John 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.680 Howard was then Prime Minister, told him about me. He 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.639 thought it was hilarious. He had to be good. If 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.000 that rested out of the way, well back then. 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.760 It would have seemed like a joke. Unfortunately now it would. 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.240 Just be Yeah. In fact, I, having read your book, 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.040 I don't think i'd go anywhere near China, even if 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:19.920 I could get in, which I don't think I could. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:21.320 I don't think I got near it. 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:21.479 Now. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.040 Did you lose friends through all this? 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.040 Oh lots. Yeah, I've lost money, I've lost my reputation. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.200 I have lost your reputation, well in China, not just. 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.560 In China, but you know how many people around the 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:41.560 world my old contacts would just dismiss me as somewhat dodgy. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.200 You know, even if I have yeah, I was wrongly 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.600 accused at such a there'd still be that question mark. 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.160 And I think even for people I meet now, they think, 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.760 is she really not a spy? Maybe she's Maybe she's 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:57.879 you know, this is a grand scheme by the Chinese. 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.760 Maybe she's a Chinese spy. Still, it's just I see 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.680 the I see the doubt in. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.800 You can see the limbs of the public. But surely 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.960 not friends. Surely friends don't doubt you, do they? 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:09.800 Obviously if they doubt me, they're not friends. 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:16.280 But there are people shunning you on them. Yes, that's sad, it. 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:21.560 Is, It hurts. And then I have also gained so 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:28.280 many new, brilliant friendships and just received so much more 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.840 that it's just a new beginning. 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.240 Who were they just digressing? And who are the Australians 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:35.960 still in jily? 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.440 Well, doctor young Jin Beijing? 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:41.879 What's happened with him? 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.720 He's well. Next February will be the two year limit 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:52.919 for converting his death sentence to a life sentence. So 0:19:54.080 --> 0:20:01.439 that's a big, big milestone. But we're just hoping we 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.159 can well. Actually, personally, for me, I would really like 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:10.040 his family to speak up because I know that there 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:16.479 are there are reasons why they haven't. But this is 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.560 a man who is who has been there six years 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:25.320 and is suffering. He's turned sixty and his health is terrible. 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:31.920 He's forced to perform strenuous labor in terrible conditions. 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.040 And why again the question why why are they doing 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:35.720 this to him? 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.560 Okay, so one telling, one telling thing that I heard 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.520 from an interrogating officer. He said it off handley, but 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.359 it really impressed me as he left a deeper impression, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.119 which was, Oh, people like you are kind of okay 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:58.840 because you grew up in Australia as in overseas. But 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.480 the people we really have and the people really want 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.560 to punish harshly are those who used to be in 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.679 our system, who used to be one of us changed. Yeah, 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.960 so that's possibly the biggest factor. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.240 Do you fear for his future? 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.359 I can't see how if anything happened to him in 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:28.920 jail it would be a good look, or that it 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:33.359 would be good for relations. But right now I think 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:40.480 China has more on his plate than relations with Australia. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.640 So it's just not a priority, even if we made 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:45.920 it a priority. 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:52.000 Not to get to that time this morning. And yes, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.320 but let's talk about what happened to you. You say 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:58.200 at one stage death was appealing. 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:07.119 Yes, Why when every minute is painful, when the past 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.800 seems just like an ugly mess of mistakes, when the 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:18.560 present is like walking on glass, and then when the 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.600 future is this big black hole, you want to block 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.399 all of it out. Your brain has no respite. You 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.440 want to turn the whole thing off, and you want 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.560 physical pain to override all. 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.080 That, But you wouldn't have had the ability or the 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:37.359 facility to kill yourself. 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.520 That's the thing. The only hard thing in that cell 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.119 in RSTL were the tiles in the bathroom, And so 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.439 when I was on the toilet, I would stare at 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:54.600 the tiles and fantasize it'd be tantalizingly close to just 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.120 bash my head against it. And even if I thought, 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.520 even if I didn't die, would have the pain to 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:02.159 distract me? 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.280 Is that? I was going to say? Do they break 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.359 you when I And that's that's the interrogation center. When 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.040 you're in jail, it's clear you're not broken because you're 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.680 causing you're doing all sorts of things to reassert yourself. 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.639 As Claire are you from the Australian says you were 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:19.760 Captain fun. 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:26.080 Well, you were the the Did they break you? 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:26.320 No? 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:29.840 Ow? Why? How did you? How did you keep yourself together? 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.679 With one stage You're sitting there between people for hours 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:33.720 on end, not allowed to move. 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.840 Yeah, what was that? That's rsd L. 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:38.880 That's RSDL stands. 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:44.240 For residential Surveillance at a Designated location. And first of all, designate. 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:49.080 That location doesn't mean squat, it's just whatever wherever they 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:50.960 put you. And in fact it was one hundred meters 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:54.240 away from the detention facility, which is where you go 0:23:54.320 --> 0:24:01.240 after you're arrested, so it is it's not benign at all. 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.360 And then residential, how do you call that residential? It's 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:09.119