S1: Hey there, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
S1: a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and
S1: The Age, where we dive into the latest in the
S1: world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas
S1: Mitchell and Mel Cambry. What's up gang? Good evening.
S2: Wherever you're listening to this podcast or it might be morning.
S1: Thomas is trying to be funny because I said to him, look,
S1: it's nice that you say good morning when we talk.
S1: I appreciate that, but podcasts are listened to at all
S1: hours of the day. We don't want to shatter the illusion.
S1: You know that this only exists in one particular moment
S1: in time.
S2: Yes, well, I'm on board now, so wherever or whenever
S2: you might be listening to this, I hope you are good.
S2: It's very.
S1: Sweet. Thank you. Mel, how are you doing?
S3: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I feel like I.
S3: I'm glad we've got to a stage where I can
S3: mitigate all responsibility for having to answer you. When you say,
S3: how are you? Like, it's just now assumed that Thomas
S3: will take on that that role.
S1: You did have one more responsibility.
S2: How were you, Osman? Oh.
S1: Not fulfilled. Oh, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking, guys. Um, well,
S1: you know, I've. I've started boxing lessons this week. Um,
S1: I wanted to add a little bit of cardio to
S1: my workout regime. And boxing seems like a really fun
S1: way to do it, and it was really fun. But
S1: I will say my arms are quite sore and tired now. Um, Thomas,
S1: I know that you box regularly. Do you have any
S1: tips or tricks for me?
S2: Uh, look, I think firstly, I think it's a really
S2: good thing for you. Um, just to work out some
S2: of your issues. You know, just like if you're going
S2: to be hitting the bag, that's the bag to hit. Um,
S2: I think no, I think it's really good. If we're going.
S1: To be hitting something, it's better or a punching bag
S1: than you.
S2: Correct? Uh, no. Look, just keep your guard up, man. Um,
S2: you know, Tyson said that everyone has a plan until
S2: they get punched in the face. Um, he also said
S2: a bunch of other dumb shit, but I think it's
S2: really good. I'm here. And, Mel, you've done some boxercise before.
S3: I haven't actually fought a story. I went to a
S3: muay Thai boxing class with the person I was profiling,
S3: and I found it. The most difficult thing was like,
S3: I couldn't remember the, what do you call it, the
S3: like when you do a whole like, like a whole
S3: series of punches and kicks. I like, really struggled to
S3: remember like a mortal Kombat, like when you're doing an uppercut, fly, kick.
S3: I could not remember the order. I found that very difficult.
S3: Do you find that challenging, Osman?
S1: Well, I'm really just starting. So it was like, you know,
S1: left jab, left jab, right jab, left hook. Like I
S1: could remember that.
S2: What's your kind of killer punch, though?
S1: Uh, I got, like, a right hook. Yeah, yeah.
S2: Yeah, I can see.
S3: It. Is this in a class? Right? This isn't. No, I.
S1: Just do it one on one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.
S1: Just Osman.
S2: Versus demons.
S1: I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong on that front. Um, well,
S1: I was going to say first things first, but we've
S1: spent a bit of time talking about my boxing. So,
S1: second topic of today's podcast. Um, we need to acknowledge
S1: Thomas's psychic abilities twice in a row. Now, he is
S1: predicted the state of origin result and the final score.
S1: Kind of. Can't believe it, I was doubtful what a
S1: time to be alive. The Blues did take it home
S1: within the margin you predicted, Thomas.
S2: Yeah, I mean, also doubtful is completely underselling what your
S2: response was. Both of you. You were mocking me. Um. and,
S2: you know, just like saying how outrageous it was that
S2: let alone I would suggest the Blues would win, that
S2: they would win in Queensland and by that scoreline and yeah,
S2: once again, it's a big win for the Thomas heads
S2: out there. Uh and and also we all win because
S2: New South Wales won. Uh that's true. We all.
S1: Did win. We all did.
S2: Sweet. It was when Bradman best crossed over for that
S2: try Osman.
S1: Oh my God it was incredible. Our text messages were
S1: just ecstatic, full of pure joy.
S3: And this was the first time I've kind of watched
S3: The State of Origin, all three of them. What I
S3: found most shocking, and that was mainly off the back
S3: of Thomas's encouragement. Um, what I found most shocking was
S3: that the sin bin is a metaphorical concept, that they
S3: just go and sit on the bench. I found that,
S3: what do you think?
S1: That they were put in a literal bin?
S3: Not in a literal bin, but I thought they went
S3: somewhere for like time out by themselves. Like they didn't
S3: just get to go and sit with their mates and, like,
S3: get Gatorade and relax. They should go and sit somewhere
S3: where they are made to feel ashamed.
S2: They do typically go into the dressing room and then
S2: right before they come back on, I think they come
S2: back to the bench.
S3: Okay. Right.
S2: So they are they are in a bin. I think you're.
S1: Confused because there was a player, um, was Angus Crichton,
S1: who was who just preemptively sat down before he was
S1: sin binned. And then he had to get up and
S1: then was sent to the sin bin.
S3: Yeah, okay. Maybe that threw me. There you go. I'm
S3: still learning.
S2: Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a
S2: great night for everyone and, um, probably, you know, winning
S2: State of Origin in Queensland, one of the great male fantasies.
S1: Speaking of great male fantasies, can you guys believe it's
S1: been 20 years since entourage debuted on HBO? God damn,
S1: we are old folks. That is crazy. Uh, the show,
S1: I think, shaped way more men in way more ways
S1: than they will ever willingly admit that perhaps Thomas and
S1: I will admit that on the podcast a little bit later, uh,
S1: we're going to discuss why it's the greatest show of
S1: all time, while Mel mercilessly mocks us for being retrograde Neanderthals. Uh,
S1: we're also going to discuss the extraordinary dominance of Charli
S1: Xcx's brat. Not just the music, but the vibe, the aesthetic,
S1: the memes, the brat summer the Northern Hemisphere has had
S1: over the past couple of months, and talk about how
S1: maybe brat Summer has reached a peak and potential decline
S1: with the political embrace of the meme, in particularly Kamala
S1: Harris aligning herself so closely with this kind of funny,
S1: weird countercultural brand. And speaking of Harris, we talked a
S1: little bit about US politics last week. It's very funny
S1: for us as a pop culture podcast to weigh in,
S1: and I am keen to get your guys takes on,
S1: you know, who Kamala should pick as her vice president.
S1: But there's been a real convergence of pop culture and politics.
S1: This is a very American thing. Obviously, they're very into
S1: their celebs running for President Reagan, Schwarzenegger as governor. Trump himself,
S1: I guess, is like a cultural celebrity turned politician. Uh,
S1: I would say maybe now we're living in a period
S1: where there's a little bit too much pop culture in politics.
S1: George Clooney wrote that opinion piece for The New York
S1: Times that, I guess, kind of started the avalanche of
S1: people saying Biden should step down. I don't know if
S1: you guys caught Aaron Sorkin's op ed on the weekend,
S1: he wrote. So Aaron Sorkin, obviously creator of The West Wing,
S1: Sports Night, The Newsroom, he wrote The Social Network, Molly's Game,
S1: very well known writer, and a lot of people love
S1: to make fun of The West Wing for how kind
S1: of cringe it was in its politics at the time,
S1: and this kind of small l liberal fantasy. He wrote
S1: the most Aaron Sorkin opinion piece of all time, where
S1: he was like, Joe Biden should step down and I
S1: know who should be the nominee. It should be Mitt Romney,
S1: the Republican, and people like Aaron Sorkin. That is crazy.
S1: And then the timing was hilarious because two hours later,
S1: Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris was the nominee, and
S1: Sorkin tweeted something like, oh, no, no. Just for the record,
S1: I agree with Kamala. This is really good. This is
S1: really good. Um, real galaxy brain stuff for him. But
S1: seeing the list of celebrities kind of come out and
S1: say things. Spike Lee was very quick to, to throw
S1: his support. I think he called Kamala like de Gaulle
S1: or something like that. Uh, good on you, spike. Uh,
S1: Robert De Niro said thank you to Joe Biden for
S1: stepping down. One man in his 80s, you know, applauding
S1: another man in his 80s, um, hopefully doesn't mean that
S1: De Niro will also step down from his acting prime.
S1: And then, on the other hand, Trump has Hulk Hogan
S1: and Kid Rock. Did you guys watch any of those
S1: performances from the RNC? What did you make of it?
S2: Ah, I mean, like as a WWE fan, when I
S2: in my younger years, I was like, oh, Hulk Hogan's
S2: still alive. Barely. But yeah, I mean, it is very funny. Like,
S2: I guess just like seeing kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. Like,
S2: if you were to find two celebs that were like
S2: so aligned with Trumpland, I suppose that makes sense. But
S2: I think generally, like on both sides, people have this real,
S2: I think, like pushback against seeing any time they feel
S2: that a celebrity is like, you know, kind of trying
S2: to push them in a particular way or, you know,
S2: just even involve with the political movement. I think our,
S2: you know, like suspicion of celebrity kind of activism is
S2: so high right now that, like, I don't know how
S2: much weight. I mean, you're right in that the Clooney piece,
S2: I think did he's such a big, important Democrat. He's
S2: like almost like his relationship to the Democrats is less
S2: of like a celebrity thing. Like he's properly involved.
S1: Yes. Yeah. He's like a major donor and yeah, like
S1: that that held weight.
S2: But I think generally we're wary of celebrity activism now
S2: on both sides of the corridor.
S3: Yeah, I think that's probably true. And they've become like
S3: obviously increasingly visible players in global politics because of their
S3: fanbases and their media reach and their access to their
S3: own platforms. Um, it's probably it's an interesting question for democracy,
S3: really not to make it too serious because there.
S1: Make it serious, man. We're talking about the presidential election.
S1: This is serious stuff.
S3: That's true because there are power comes from their ability
S3: to kind of attract attention, but they have no political expertise.
S3: So I mean, that is kind of, you know, whether
S3: that translates to electoral influence and policy is an interesting question.
S3: I don't actually think it does. Same with you, Thomas. Like,
S3: I don't know if it's it changes, um, the, the
S3: poll results. And we have seen in the past high
S3: profile endorsements, really high profile endorsements that have made no difference.
S3: I think maybe it has the biggest impact on the
S3: celebrity's public image. Like that's actually where the biggest change is.
S2: Because it's funny already, like with the like Kamala thing.
S2: It's like so many people I've seen tweeting like, Where's Taylor?
S2: Like kind of waiting for the Taylor drop to be like,
S2: you know, and maybe she is one of the few
S2: people that still can, like move the needle. Like if
S2: Taylor Swift came out in support of Kamala. Really hardcore,
S2: you know, like telling people to vote, telling people to
S2: sign up, would that maybe, you know, change things?
S1: I actually agree with you that that is maybe the
S1: one person that could I largely agree with what you
S1: guys have said. I think in an American political context,
S1: someone reminded me of this yesterday. We'll talk more about
S1: the Charlie Kamala thing. And I was like, well, does
S1: that really matter if someone like Taylor Swift or Charli
S1: XCX endorses Kamala Harris? Like how many, you know, 22
S1: year olds listening to brat are like, well, I was
S1: going to vote for Trump, but now Charli has come out,
S1: I might switch. But then they reminded me that the
S1: US has their, uh, you know, non-compulsory voting system. And
S1: there's a lot of young people who feel very cynical
S1: about both sides and might just stay home, but someone
S1: like Taylor Swift saying, hey guys, if you want to
S1: protect abortion rights or whatever, you should get organized and
S1: register and go vote. That could shift the dial in
S1: a way that probably like De Niro and Spike Lee
S1: even probably are not going to.
S3: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's very true,
S3: because I think the fact that they don't have to
S3: compulsorily vote is really where the power of these celebrities lies,
S3: particularly for the for the Democrats.
S1: Before we move on from this one, I just there's
S1: a regular segment we're going to have now is like
S1: what JD Vance is up to. We had a lot
S1: of fun talking about him last week. This is Trump's, uh,
S1: pick for the vice presidency. Um, the author that Mel loves, uh,
S1: really funny, interesting people found his, like, blogspot from 2011
S1: or maybe even earlier where he, he talks about, like,
S1: his life traveling from Ohio to Yale and, you know,
S1: his kind of suburban malaise. Uh, Henry gave us a
S1: little bit of a review of Garden State, the Zach
S1: Braff film. So he's talking about being in the airport,
S1: and he says, I couldn't watch Garden State because New
S1: Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's. The music is
S1: so relevant to my life right now. And the story
S1: of a guy returning home, realizing that home isn't what
S1: it used to be, etc. made me want to tear up.
S1: I mean, that's Garden State in a nutshell, right? It really.
S2: Is. I never really I can't believe he was like
S2: a shins guy.
S1: Lebanese blonde by Thievery Corp, just, you know, makes him weep.
S1: Still to this day.
S3: It's so strange how he's managed to make something quite
S3: banal sound so poignant.
S1: You can't get off this hype train at all, can you, man?
S1: You're just like, damn.
S3: I want more. I mean, also, I'd love to imagine
S3: what was on your blogspot of 2011.
S1: Well, honestly, when I saw that, I was like, shit,
S1: is that still up?
S2: Yeah, I probably need to do like a bit of did.
S3: You really blog?
S2: I mean, it's best not to talk about it. Uh,
S2: is there a JD Vance review of The Legend of
S2: Bagger Vance? Because that I think.
S1: That's really funny. That's really funny. Um, yeah. My blog
S1: when I was a teenager was about New South Wales
S1: state politics. That's how cool.
S2: Oh my God.
S1: Wow. It was called Macquarie Street.
S2: It's set in a dune world.
S4: Yeah. interpreted through fiction.
S1: It wasn't fan fiction, maybe. I don't know what's lamer
S1: that I was writing serious news stories when I was 15,
S1: or writing fan fiction about, um, Premier Nathan Rees. I
S1: was not doing that for the record. Um, that's a throwback. Uh,
S1: let's talk about brat. We discussed the album at length
S1: when it was released on June 7th. It has become
S1: Charli's biggest selling album yet, but I think what's become
S1: even bigger is the, I guess vibe, the meme, the
S1: aura around brat. How do you describe it? Well, according
S1: to Charlie herself, brat is a little messy, likes to party,
S1: and maybe says some dumb things sometime. Someone who feels herself,
S1: but then also maybe has a breakdown, but kind of
S1: like parties through it. They're very honest, very blunt, a
S1: little bit volatile. Mel, in your group chats with girls. Women?
S1: Is that how you guys are describing yourselves these days?
S1: Is this is this the mood, the vibe amongst cool
S1: millennial Gen Z women? This kind of brat aura?
S3: I was hoping you might describe me as urbane again. That's, uh.
S3: I was really hoping that might make a reappearance. Uh, look,
S3: on a on one level, I find on the surface level,
S3: if I don't think about it too much, I find
S3: brat like the movement very fun. I think it's, uh,
S3: it's a fun movement on the socials, and I think it's, uh,
S3: it's people are having a lot of fun with it.
S3: If I really think about it, I guess, I mean,
S3: all kind of labels like that are kind of reductive
S3: and performative. Um, but I think the more interesting thing
S3: is like, what is brat reacting against? Like, why is
S3: brat having a moment? And I guess it's kind of
S3: moving against that clean girl aesthetic, which is dominated TikTok
S3: and also fashion. The idea of the put together girl
S3: with the slick backed bun and the neutral nails and
S3: the the clothes that don't kind of stand out. Like
S3: it's obviously a very direct reaction against that. And it's
S3: obviously a reaction against a feminism that Gen Z sees
S3: as too serious and and stifling. So I think that
S3: part of it is interesting. And I mean, ultimately it's
S3: about owning elements of oneself that have traditionally been seen
S3: as troubling for women, like women who like to party,
S3: who are messy. So I guess it's good that you're like,
S3: that level is being reclaimed. But I mean, ultimately, I
S3: do kind of wonder if brat is Manic Pixie for
S3: a 21st century. It's manic pixie with a bit of edge. Really.
S3: I don't think anything's new. Um, so I'm cautious of
S3: it and interested. And I believe I can be a brat.
S1: That's an interesting take. I, Thomas, loath as I am
S1: to ask you this question in particular, but, um, one
S1: one thing that stood out to me about that kind
S1: of Charli description of it, and it certainly seems to like,
S1: resonate with the way it's being deployed by people I
S1: know on social media. There's the kind of like, you know,
S1: just like, you know, we're girls and we're a bit wacky.
S1: We like to party. We're also a little bit dumb.
S1: That does seem to be a vibe at the moment.
S1: And to Mel's point, it does also seem to be
S1: a bit of a reaction to this kind of broader
S1: idea of like, I don't want to get, I don't
S1: want to get too ideological about this stuff, but like
S1: this mode of feminism that we seem to be in
S1: reflected through culture, of that kind of like girlboss work hard,
S1: you can make it all work. Get what you want.
S1: There's a there's a way out of like the trap
S1: of kind of capitalism and the sociological factors that apply
S1: and everyone kind of realizing that that is all a
S1: bit bullshit and like, what's the point of working our
S1: way up to the top and playing by the rules?
S1: It's all stupid. Anyway. Let's just have a bit of
S1: dumb fun. The kind of return of the tradwife thing.
S1: The explosion of Red scare, which is obviously referenced in
S1: Charlie's album all seems to be part of this too.
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we're definitely living
S2: in a time when young people, capital P are feeling
S2: like a certain.
S3: Was it a capital P?
S2: I don't know. Capital. Capital P a feeling like a
S2: certain level of hopelessness. And I think that has manifested
S2: itself in this like for, you know, young millennial women,
S2: it's kind of like the way you get ahead of like,
S2: the future that's been dictated to you anyway. And like,
S2: you know, I that makes so much sense to me. Like,
S2: it's it's a kind of grim outlook out there for
S2: so many people like, you know, both here and overseas and,
S2: and in all kind of aspects of life. And so
S2: like this makes sense that it's popping up again. Like
S2: I do agree, this is just a repetition of, you know,
S2: like stuff we've seen before, like, you know, like the
S2: whole hot mess thing that was like being in the
S2: kind of late, which was.
S3: Also a form of manic pixie, I think, like a development.
S2: Like I remember there's a whole Hot Mess episode of
S2: The Mindy Project with, like, you know, that character was
S2: completely brat. Uh, and same with Fleabag, even, like, she
S2: was a hot mess, which is a brat, like, you know,
S2: it's all just an evolution of the same thing. But
S2: I think it's particularly like big right now. And I do,
S2: you know, as you know, I go on Instagram and like,
S2: see these trends. But like you do see lots of
S2: like I've got lots of my friends who are like
S2: super smart, successful women. And then they'll be posting stuff
S2: like kind of like tongue in cheek about like how
S2: messed up and like fucked up their lives are and
S2: like lol. And it's kind of like it's true. Like,
S2: but they're just kind of getting ahead of the curve,
S2: I think, and kind of claiming it to own what's
S2: really going on. But like, they're not really those people.
S1: Yeah. It's not it's not cool right now to be
S1: successful and to be playing by the rules. It's cooler
S1: to embrace a kind of nihilism or irony and just
S1: lean into that. Even if you know you work in
S1: finance 14 hours a day, that's not what you want
S1: to project. But then I also think, like there is
S1: a genuine sense of that nihilism that you're describing in
S1: terms of just how a lot of people our generation
S1: and younger feel about where the world is going.
S3: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think you
S3: could also maybe read the the hedonism that is embodied in,
S3: in the brat kind of idea, not just as nihilism,
S3: but hedonism as reacting against expectations of women, all of them.
S3: So if you kind of take brat as its base
S3: level as that, then that is a positive thing. If
S3: it's about reacting against, you know, what's expected of you,
S3: traditional stereotypes, how society wants you to behave, then if
S3: that's the net level of it, then I guess that's
S3: a good thing. But, um, yeah, always wary of these things.
S3: But I do think.
S2: It is funny that like the split in, I would
S2: say like, you know, we're all in our like mid
S2: 30s the I think like the people that I see
S2: around me like in my, you know, like echo chamber,
S2: the women especially who are like adopting it, it definitely
S2: is in more of like a like kind of performative
S2: like this is a funny trend. Like, I could I'm
S2: happy to like jump on this for a bit. Whereas like,
S2: I think the I mean, the origins of the actual
S2: brat movement that, you know, perhaps Charlie was referring to
S2: and maybe like, you know, people, women in their kind
S2: of like, early 20s are really talking about is a
S2: more genuine feeling of like, well, this is all pretty fucked,
S2: like whatever. Whereas I think, like the older you get,
S2: it's like you kind of you can clock the vibe
S2: and you can clock the trend and you're like, oh,
S2: this is quite a fun one for me to jump on.
S2: But like, also I have a, you know, $800,000 mortgage
S2: and I get paid $200,000 a year. And like, I'm,
S2: you know, planning my second child and shit.
S3: Yeah. Like totally. If you're going to be kind of
S3: partying all the time and, um, not caring about things,
S3: the early 20s is the time to do that.
S2: Yeah, exactly.
S1: There is a visual element to this as well. It's
S1: defined by like the brat cover up, the lime green,
S1: that sort of simple font. And Charlie's aesthetic on this
S1: very like early 2000 club rat kind of energy. It
S1: is kind of everywhere. And to your point, I think
S1: a lot of this is being passing this through what
S1: women I know are posting on Instagram. And it's just like,
S1: anytime there's anything green people on holiday, they're like, you know,
S1: I'm in Copenhagen right now. Brat. London. Uh, and that
S1: has been I mean, it's kind of fun. It's just
S1: nice that there's another universal ish meme that everyone kind
S1: of understands and has jumped on. Um, pretty harmless, pretty cool.
S1: But then it starts to bleed into politics. Everything fun
S1: and good and organic ultimately gets eaten up by big
S1: machines in some capacity. Uh, so Kamala Harris, uh, we
S1: didn't say this explicitly. She's, you know, the presumptive Democratic
S1: nominee for the presidency. In case people haven't been following
S1: that stuff super closely, she has a tendency to say
S1: slightly odd things. You guys across the coconut tree thing? Yeah, yeah,
S1: it's really funny clip.
S5: My mother used to she would give us a hard
S5: time sometimes and she would say to us, I don't
S5: know what's wrong with you young people. You think you
S5: just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in
S5: the context of all in which you live and what
S5: came before you. So all of this opponents of.
S1: Harris have made all these videos mashing up, you know,
S1: like slightly wacky things that she said and trying to
S1: expose her as this, you know, quote unquote mad woman. Uh,
S1: but then fans of Harris have like, kind of reclaimed
S1: that and remixed those videos using tracks from brat, adding
S1: kind of like lime green colors to it and being like,
S1: Camila is Camila's brat, man, this is it. Just a
S1: bit messy. She's a bit dumb. She's going for it.
S1: She's handed out, she's at the club. This is how
S1: it works.
S4: Um.
S1: A couple of days ago, Charli herself tweeted after, like,
S1: Camila became the presumptive nominee. Camilla is brat. Harry's team, uh,
S1: is using the brat font as their banner image on
S1: social media. So they are like really like loving this alignment.
S1: And these two forces, this kind of like club energy
S1: from London to Washington DC have bizarrely merged together. Uh, and,
S1: you know, you could say that like, this is the
S1: peak of brat. You could argue that perhaps this is
S1: the beginning of the end of brat. In Australia, the
S1: Queensland Premier, Steven Miles, posted a TikTok where he was
S1: at the, uh, workshop where they were building new buses for.
S1: For Brisbane there were lime green and he was like, nah,
S1: buses are so bright. I feel like when the Queensland
S1: Premier's posting stuff, it's like done and dusted. The camera
S1: thing I think is a little bit more interesting. I'm
S1: keen to talk to you guys about whether or not
S1: you think this is the beginning of the end of brat,
S1: now that it's been so embraced by like, the Democratic machine?
S1: Or is it brat evolving into another level of cultural dominance?
S2: I mean, I fear it's the beginning of the end.
S2: Like after they retweeted the brat thing, my father in law,
S2: who is and he won't mind me saying this, a
S2: big Trump fan, he texted to the family group and
S2: he was like, what is this? Like, what is brat?
S2: And then it's just a series of messages where he
S2: was like, also, I'm hearing that potentially Biden is dead. Um,
S2: that's a whole other podcast. But he's I mean, I
S2: don't know if you guys know, but Biden is dead.
S2: That's the hot tip.
S1: That's our that's our Patreon podcast. Find out. Yeah.
S2: That one. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, when once
S2: brat awareness has hit, you know, the suburban 65 year
S2: old dads in Australia, it's over.
S1: Unfortunately, that's where memes go to die, man.
S2: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When he's screenshotting them off a Facebook
S2: screenshot and posting them into the WhatsApp thread, then the
S2: meme is dead. But no. Yeah, I think I think,
S2: you know, like good on them for doing it. And
S2: also it was actually perfect for their campaign because like,
S2: you know, she's coming in like kind of behind the
S2: eight ball. This is of all the great I mean
S2: to use another set of origin phrase of all the
S2: great hospital passes, Biden has absolutely centering. And, you know,
S2: like Gordon Taylor is bearing down on her. But I
S2: feel like that gave her a bit of momentum like that.
S2: This has given her a bit of a like, you know,
S2: the campaign, a kickstart. There's like something to rally behind. Um,
S2: people are, you know, like think it's really funny, but
S2: I just don't know if that if it's kind of
S2: the beginning of the end for brat Summer.
S3: Yeah. I reckon it's definitely the beginning of the end.
S3: I would have thought, like, you know, these social media
S3: trends hit their peak and then come down the other side.
S3: So I would have seen that coming in the next
S3: few months. I think this is probably hastened it. Um,
S3: particularly because the people who were enjoying this trend were
S3: much younger, the people appropriating it are much older. So
S3: I think they will start to it will start to
S3: get used less. I think it will go through its
S3: period of being ironically used now, like it was genuinely used.
S3: Now we're in irony stage, and then we'll look back
S3: on this in a few years and be like, well,
S3: that was that brief lived brat summer. But I think
S3: the use of the politicians using it is interesting, because
S3: I do think it then, even though I think brat
S3: is political, it doesn't ostensibly seem to be. Whereas I
S3: think when politicians use it, it takes it into the dome,
S3: it takes it into the domain of the political, which
S3: then makes it less kind of universal. Um, and then,
S3: you know, claiming to be brat or describing things as
S3: brat then becomes a political action. So then it's less used.
S3: So yes, I think, um, I think it's the beginning
S3: of the end. But I'm glad you're wearing green today, Thomas.
S2: Yes, that's true actually.
S1: Who do you think, uh, benefits more from this alignment
S1: between Harris and Bratt? Like, you know, Thomas, you said
S1: it gives her this, like, boost, a bit of energy.
S1: I agree with that. Generally speaking, I'd be like, the
S1: celebrity loses out, but Charlie is someone who's finally, like,
S1: really done well in the US market. After plugging away
S1: for a while, I'd be interesting to watch the charts
S1: and be like, if this does enter the American kind
S1: of conversation for a week or two, when a whole
S1: bunch of people who are like, oh, what's this about?
S1: Listen to her albums, potentially. This is a big boost
S1: for her as well. You know, in in swing states
S1: like Michigan.
S3: And yeah, I think that's probably true. And maybe they're
S3: trying to get the Barack Obama when he first went
S3: into office, had that whole kind of coolness behind him,
S3: like he was a cool candidate. And so maybe they're
S3: trying to replicate that in this way as well.
S1: I think the other part of this is that, like,
S1: even though there's a chance, uh, that Charlie gets some,
S1: you know, extra streams out of it, there's also a
S1: risk in, like, I wouldn't say that like Charlie or Brad,
S1: heads necessarily overlap neatly with, like, Democratic vice presidential candidates
S1: who used to be cops and prosecutors and, you know, have,
S1: you know, conservative foreign policy. So there's there's also like
S1: I've seen Charli XCX fans, this is the risk for
S1: celebs in this space be like, oh, this is so lame. Like,
S1: this is not what I want you to be using. Like,
S1: if you're if you're like a 24 year old girl
S1: and you've been pumping out brat content in between, like
S1: really hectic, radical political slides, and then all of a
S1: sudden charli's like Camila is brat, you'd be feeling pretty.
S4: Pissed off with the stock you.
S1: Bought a month or so ago, right?
S2: Yeah. That's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of I mean,
S2: I like it's probably one of those things that we're
S2: obviously sitting here discussing it. She probably just like knowing
S2: Charlie as I do. Um, she probably just like, fucking
S2: fired it off and was like, this is funny.
S1: This is funny. Totally. And now here's a bunch of
S1: people in their 30s debating it.
S2: Yeah, yeah. And me being like, I think what it is. No.
S2: But like, yeah, that's probably like the reality of what happened. Um,
S2: and now we just kind of like watch it all
S2: play out. But yeah, I would say just like slightly
S2: off topic, but I do think this whole thing has
S2: made me a little bit excited just for the general
S2: meme environment leading up to the election, because it has
S2: been amazing already. Not off topic.
S1: We have. We're veering into like Pod Save America territory
S1: for the next, you know, six months. This is what
S1: we're doing now.
S2: And one of my favorite ones, uh, was just as
S2: soon as this all happened. Have you seen the one, like,
S2: going around like the the headshot of Connor Roy, and
S2: it's like he's tanned. He's ready. I was like, man, amazing.
S2: This was the guy we should have had leading. Um, like,
S2: the internet is just going to do it. So this
S2: has been obviously a very, you know, insane and turbulent, um,
S2: kind of like few months in the lead up to
S2: the election with everything that's going on, like between Biden
S2: pulling out and the assassination, and the internet is just
S2: like fucking doing what it does.
S1: Best, man. You said a few months, it's been like
S1: three weeks since Donald Trump was shot in the head,
S1: and Joe Biden's pulled out of the race. Crazy times.
S2: Tenacious D with an unsuspecting victim of this. Like.
S3: How wild is it that the Trump news it's, like,
S3: certainly says something about the world we live in in
S3: the news cycle that Trump, our former president and presidential candidate,
S3: nearly being assassinated is just like not around on news
S3: websites that much.
S4: Can I say.
S1: Something controversial and don't take this as an endorsement? But like, honestly,
S1: Trump is brat. Oh.
S2: He probably is a bit more brat than Kamala.
S4: He's been about.
S1: His kind of weird manic energy and just like, you know,
S1: just he keeps, you know, we talk about the Hannibal
S1: Lecter thing he's talked about. He keeps bringing up Hannibal
S1: Lecter in speeches, and he keeps describing him as the late,
S1: great Hannibal Lecter. Like he thinks he's a real person
S1: who is both good and dead when he is not real. Famously,
S1: not a good guy. Serial killer and a murderer. And
S1: in canon, not dead. It's one of the most perplexing
S1: cultural overlaps with politics I've seen.
S2: He also has, like the messy hair. Like, he's like
S2: a bit of a club rat. And he's just been
S2: at fabric or something, been doing for 24 hours, and he, like,
S2: wakes up and then he's a.
S3: Bit disheveled and makeup isn't right. Yeah.
S2: Like, there would be some fucking brat parties at Mar
S2: a Lago.
S3: Oh, man, who's gonna write that piece?
S4: Yeah.
S1: But I've said it. I've gone out on a limb.
S1: I'm going to get assassinated.
S2: I thought what you were going to say is that, like,
S2: at this point, I almost wondered, obviously, Trump, you know,
S2: assassination has was like very sad. We don't want that happening. And,
S2: you know, it's it's kind of done wonders for his
S2: like resurgence is like if Biden was to pass away
S2: from Covid does that Trump a near assassination. Like where
S2: do we what's the what's like what is the hierarchy of?
S1: I think the sad thing is we're just fully talking
S1: about politics now. I think like the Biden thing is over, man.
S1: It's like it's Kamala now. And I think if Biden died,
S1: I don't people be like, that's sad. I think people
S1: would move on kind of quickly and just be like,
S1: you know.
S4: Had a good run. It's kind of like.
S3: When someone's grandparent dies, but they're really old and they've
S3: been really sick.
S2: Well, he wasn't taken too soon.
S4: Yeah. Yeah, it.
S1: Was like the average life expectancy in America is like 78.
S1: He's 82 or something. Like, it's kind of the most
S1: least surprising thing that could happen. Um, yeah. How do
S1: we eject from this conversation?
S4: Um.
S1: All right.
S2: Let me allow me. Uh, yes. Well, look, it's all
S2: very crazy. Um, but allow me to blow you away
S2: with something crazier. Obviously, Trump is preparing for his second
S2: tilt as the Republican nominee in 2004. He was preparing
S2: for his very first season as host of The Apprentice.
S2: In some ways, the beginning of his kind of rise
S2: to power. That show kind of like blasted him into
S2: wider culture. And then he obviously found a career in politics.
S2: But you know what also happened in 2004? Osman.
S1: What was a big year for Premiere Television. It was
S1: when a show about four guys from New York who
S1: moved to LA to make it big first premiered. It's
S1: been 20 years since entourage was released. People say Sopranos
S1: changed television. Men? No, it was older men. Men were
S1: killing it on HBO in that year, like women had
S1: sex in the city. We had Sopranos, The Wire, entourage, like,
S1: Take me Back, man. No wonder people voting for Trump like,
S1: make fucking HBO great again. It's crazy.
S4: I know.
S3: It's why you guys keep calling it the golden age
S3: of television. I keep telling you, it wasn't.
S4: The.
S2: Golden balls of television.
S1: It was, and remains, I think, a pretty divisive show
S1: in terms of whether you're an entourage head or you
S1: really hate it. It has a lot of fans, and
S1: I think both for the kind of fantasy elements of
S1: just watching a bunch of rich guys have fun in L.A. uh,
S1: and also, you know, like it's a satire on Hollywood
S1: and movies and the whole, you know, cult of celebrity
S1: in that kind of peak 2000 era as well, but
S1: has faced a lot of very fair criticism for the sexism,
S1: homophobia and racism that is imbued, I guess, in the
S1: DNA of the show itself. Uh, before we kind of
S1: unpack this show and talk about like, why it was
S1: such a phenomenon, its legacy, what worked, what didn't, why
S1: it is so divisive. I want to ask you guys
S1: about your relationship to it. Mel, first up, what is
S1: your history with entourage?
S3: Well, I've been lucky. I've been able to go the
S3: last 20 years without watching it. Um, but I actually,
S3: I kind of think of it, you know, how in
S3: Barbie there's that really great montage where men are playing
S3: Matchbox 20 push, and they're talking about The Godfather. I
S3: would put entourage, like, you could have subbed entourage into
S3: that and it would have worked. But in saying that
S3: a lot of smart, sensible, sensitive men in my life
S3: have enjoyed entourage. And so for me that is interesting, um,
S3: and worth my consideration. So I have gone back in
S3: preparation for this pod, and I watched the first kind
S3: of five episodes, and then I watched some scattered episodes
S3: that have had a lot of, um, a lot of
S3: discussion about them or a kind of pinch pinch hitter episodes.
S3: So obviously I feel like I'm not going to be
S3: able to fully understand and appreciate the character arcs that
S3: these characters definitely don't go on. But, um, yeah, I'm
S3: excited to talk more about it, and maybe to bring
S3: a perspective of someone watching it for the first time
S3: in this context versus I imagine you guys were hot
S3: into it when you were when you were in your youth.
S1: Thomas, what do you reckon? Were you hot into it
S1: in your youth? What's your what's your relationship with this show?
S2: Uh, I had all the entourage DVDs. Yeah. I mean, look, man, like,
S2: in the least surprising news of all time for anyone
S2: that listens to this podcast. I mean, you and I
S2: were both. We couldn't have been more bang in the demo. Really? Like,
S2: it came out when I was like, what, 1415? Like,
S2: you know, there was no there was no 15 year
S2: old version of me that escaped entourage. Um, and and
S2: the same thing with all my friends, like, you know,
S2: it was almost like probably one of the like I
S2: loved Sopranos and stuff, but that was it felt like a,
S2: you know, it's a different show for me. Like, I
S2: loved it. I probably didn't fully understand it. Whereas entourage
S2: was like there for me to really, like, take in. Um, yeah.
S2: And it's funny, like, everyone's relationship, I think, with the
S2: show has changed a lot. Um, in, in the 20
S2: years since it premiered, especially because the show finished in 2011.
S2: But then the movie came out in 2015, and the movie,
S2: I think, was a good way for lots of people
S2: who grew up with the show, like me and you
S2: probably Osmond, to like to realize that this show had like,
S2: was a little bit crazy and probably had some big
S2: problems because it kind of the movie like.
S1: Passed its expiry date by then.
S2: Exactly. Yeah. And then we kind of cut forward another
S2: ten years to now and it's 20 years. And you know,
S2: like obviously the legacy is a funny thing. These anniversaries
S2: like you're forced to like reflect on what did the
S2: show mean and stuff. But like yeah, I find myself
S2: in conversations like not wanting to defend entourage because I'm
S2: fully aware of like all of its downfalls. But I
S2: do think there are certain parts of it that have
S2: become like it was. 2004 was a fucking weird time.
S2: It was a it was a dumb show written by
S2: a guy who was basically writing about his life experience. Like,
S2: what did we expect it to be?
S1: My experience is is pretty similar to to yours. I
S1: think the only thing I'd add is that every time
S1: I do a rewatch and I do one every couple
S1: of years, I did one last year. I'm sort of
S1: surprised by like, and maybe because my memories and expectations
S1: of its politics and stuff are so low, I'm kind
S1: of surprised by the quality of the writing and, and
S1: some of the acting and some of the storylines and. Yeah, look, look,
S1: I think a lot of people, you know, a lot
S1: of people talk about the misogyny inherent in the show
S1: and it's like fair to say that there are very
S1: few women characters who have anything in the show other
S1: than just like they're hot models that the guys want
S1: to have sex with. They're like, obviously a few women
S1: characters that are a bit more fleshed, a bit more interesting,
S1: but there's so many episodes where like that stuff actually
S1: is not really part of the show. I think a
S1: lot of people haven't seen the show, think it's like
S1: every episode it's like which smoking hot perfect ten model
S1: Will Vince and the gang hang out with? And that
S1: does happen. I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't
S1: an element of that there, but a lot of it
S1: is like an increasingly, especially the first half of the show,
S1: the first four seasons and seasons two, three, four, where
S1: it's about, you know, Vince trying to get in median
S1: and these stories about Hollywood or whatever the the kind
S1: of sexism of the show fades a little bit into
S1: the background and you're like, oh, there's a reason why
S1: this show was interesting, compelling. It wasn't just softcore pornography.
S1: I think the bits that really stand out to me
S1: are like the, the homophobia and and racism particularly directed
S1: from Ari Gold to his assistant, Lloyd. I mean, Ari
S1: Gold is one of the funniest characters. He's also a
S1: bad person. So he says this stuff. It's not necessarily
S1: the show endorsing homophobia and racism, but he's never really
S1: subject to backlash for it, you know? And then it
S1: does happen a bit. And you do get these these
S1: moments where he's challenged, but it always comes back to, like,
S1: Lloyd ultimately loves him, even though he is one of
S1: the worst people to him in the world. So that
S1: is my attempt to try to like put not not
S1: not defend the politics of the show, but to say
S1: that there are there's a lot of it that goes
S1: beyond those kinds of issues and makes it something interesting
S1: to still watch now and interesting to still talk about now.
S3: Yeah, I agree. And I think like, yeah, it's very
S3: easy to be like it was a silly show. It
S3: was the kind of Emily in Paris of its day.
S3: It was something you could watch and just take on
S3: surface level. Like it's very easy to say that. But
S3: the thing is, that show was so immensely popular and so, um,
S3: had such wide reach that it is worthy to consider
S3: what the fantasy was that people were so interested in. Like,
S3: I'm not saying. And in this discussion, like, I don't
S3: think the show is pretending to be anything other than
S3: what it is. But I think the discussion point is,
S3: why did so many people connect with that idea? And
S3: what does that say about us collectively?
S1: Definitely. It's a really good point. I mean, like very quickly,
S1: for anyone who's totally unfamiliar with it's like loosely based
S1: on Mark Wahlberg's real life, his crew moving to LA
S1: when he was in the 90s, navigating Hollywood, working their
S1: way up run ins him and his crew have with
S1: studio execs, with other celebrities, with other actors. Every episode
S1: is kind of standalone. There are some season wide arcs about,
S1: you know, movies and things that they're trying to get into.
S1: A lot of celebrities make cameos. James Cameron famously like,
S1: is trying to make a, uh, superhero movie called Aquaman
S1: at a time when everyone was like, are superhero movies
S1: good luck man. And now they're so dominant. There's even
S1: like a movie called Ferrari that's in the film. There's
S1: a Gatsby film. All these movies happen before their equivalents
S1: in real life. And honestly, for me, when I was
S1: thinking about this conversation, I was like, did I really
S1: fall in love with, like, cinema and Hollywood and the
S1: art of like, you know, making these things and caring
S1: about producers and studios through entourage. And I reckon I
S1: probably did. I reckon I learnt a lot of the
S1: language and the stories and the details of this stuff.
S1: Watching the show, that made it seem really interesting and
S1: dynamic and weird and actually wanting to learn more about it.
S1: I don't know if either of you guys can can
S1: relate to that.
S3: Yeah, I that for me that is by far the
S3: best part of the show is the Hollywood element of it,
S3: and it's the insider stuff. One of the episodes I watched,
S3: which was really good, was everyone stressing about whether the
S3: film would have a bigger opening day than was it Spider-Man,
S3: I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was all
S3: of that stuff. It was the role of the agents,
S3: the film choices, the pressure from producers, the the publicists,
S3: the kind of mechanics of the industry that I found
S3: most interesting and was by far the best part of
S3: the show and the part that I think has stood
S3: the test of time, only because a lot of it
S3: is strangely prescient of films that did get made of
S3: things that have happened in the industry.
S2: Yeah, I think like, I mean, I think keeping in
S2: mind this is 2004, like before we fully were like
S2: in the stranglehold of reality TV. And like Doug Ellin,
S2: the creator, tells this story so regularly about how, like
S2: so many people, when the show started, thought it was
S2: a there were real people like thought it was a
S2: I thought he was like, this was a documentary. Um,
S2: because like, you know, we have a genuine appetite for
S2: that stuff now more than ever. Like, you know, if entourage,
S2: if entourage was to be made in 2024, it would
S2: probably just be a fly on the wall following. Like,
S2: I don't know, Timothée Chalamet as he visits a bunch
S2: of boulangeries or whatever, but like, I think that's how.
S3: Far we've come.
S2: Yeah, yeah, I think it would be so boring. I'd
S2: much rather watch the Vincent Chase one. Um, but like,
S2: I think, you know, the voyeuristic element was a huge
S2: part of what made it so good. You know, people
S2: love to peek behind the curtain of anything but especially Hollywood, this,
S2: you know, huge system that we're all like, you know,
S2: know so much about. And, you know, we watch the
S2: movies and stuff. But to figure out, like, what does
S2: a movie star do, like on a Tuesday afternoon like
S2: that shit is interesting. And that's why I do think, like,
S2: you know, the the kind of revisionist history of entourage
S2: and the very, like, fair criticisms of it, you know, the,
S2: the fact that it does have like all it's like,
S2: you know, there's lots of misogyny. It is really racist. Like,
S2: but the, the criticism that has become so loud that
S2: it's like reduced the rest of the show to like, oh,
S2: it didn't really offer anything. Whereas like, I don't think
S2: that is true.
S1: Yeah. And I think really smart in terms of that reality. Uh,
S1: like what's real, what's drama. The show leaned into that
S1: like it had real actors like Mandy Moore play fictionalized
S1: versions of themselves. And so you really felt like you
S1: were getting a peek into how it works. Fuck knows
S1: if that's actually the case. I mean, in that vein, also,
S1: there was a character who was a very wealthy and
S1: powerful film producer who went to Sundance and threatened people
S1: a lot and was very aggressive and quite large, and
S1: his name was Harvey Weingard in the show, and it
S1: was obviously a reference to Harvey Weinstein. It was one
S1: of the first pop culture kind of statements that this
S1: guy exists and he's a monster Decade before the kind
S1: of revelations in the in the Times and the MeToo movement.
S1: So the show was very knowing about a lot of
S1: this stuff. On the kind of the other side. A
S1: lot of the reasons why I like the show was
S1: great party scenes, great soundtrack, a lot of stuff about
S1: dudes just like hanging out. And I think when you're
S1: a teenager, you're like, is this what being a man is?
S1: And I think this is this is one of the
S1: bits of the show that I can't really reconcile. And
S1: it's not really the show's fault that a bunch of
S1: people our age, Thomas More teenagers, watched it and were like, well,
S1: you know, this this feels more, uh, aspirational, aspirational to
S1: me than like, The Wire, The Sopranos. Um, my dream
S1: is to just get enough money and, like, smoke weed
S1: with my friends, go to basketball games, get front row,
S1: you know, seats and just hang out that that was
S1: what I thought peak being a dude was.
S3: Yeah. And this is I was saying this the other day, like,
S3: I think everyone or dudes watch that show and thought
S3: they wanted to be Vince when all of them were
S3: being turtle at the time, like, that's who they were.
S3: And Vince was aspirational. I mean, I don't you're kind
S3: of very gracefully sidestepping the element of how these men
S3: treat women as being also kind of potentially aspirational. You know,
S3: the show presenting that as that's what men are like. Um,
S3: I mean, I think that argument and you do see
S3: it a lot in defense of this, that the show
S3: is about male friendship is like wrong and kind of silly. Like,
S3: I think that's a silly argument or like it's an
S3: argument that doesn't take into account what that male friendship
S3: is like. It's about I was thinking of, you know,
S3: Leo's pussy posse. Like, we'd never say that. That was
S3: male friendship. Like, that's if you really think about what
S3: bonds these men. It's money, power and women. That's their currency.
S3: That's what the friendship and the status in the group
S3: is based on. That is the codified behavior that creates
S3: their friendship.
S1: Power, baby.
S4: Yeah. What's the issue?
S3: That's it. Like. And yeah, you can have issues about that.
S3: But I don't know, like if you can make the
S3: case that the show says anything deeper about friendship other
S3: than what I've just said, that in that.
S1: No, look, I agree with you. I don't think it
S1: actually does. And even when I was writing my notes
S1: on this, I was like, oh, it's about friendship. And
S1: I thought about it and I'm like, what does that
S1: have to say about it? But here's the thing, right?
S1: I'm keen on your thoughts on this, Thomas. You're right, Mel,
S1: that it doesn't go beyond that. But what there weren't
S1: really a lot of shows that just portrayed what it
S1: means to be a guy. Like, you're having issues with
S1: your girlfriend and you talk to your friends about it,
S1: you're having issues with your job, and you talk to
S1: your friends about it. They didn't talk about it particularly well.
S1: It wasn't like deep insight into the nature of, like
S1: how to navigate relationships and your career. Really. Like not
S1: a lot of TV shows were like men were talking
S1: about stuff in the mid 2000. I was just trying
S1: to say it's more more relatable and accurate issues than
S1: like Tony Soprano talking to Uncle June about the Rico act,
S1: you know?
S2: Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of I kind of agree.
S2: I mean, like, I don't I think it, you know,
S2: of course that was how it was framed as a
S2: show about male friendship. And I do think, like a
S2: lot of the people around the show have done a
S2: lot of, like, hard work in the, you know, time
S2: since it finished and they've kind of been reading the
S2: room on what people think of the show and they've been,
S2: you know, trying to be like, no, it was always
S2: about male friendship. Like, I appreciate all that. I do
S2: think that, like, I kind of agree, like, you know,
S2: not to play a game of comparisons, but like sex
S2: and the city is the obvious comparison in that it was.
S2: So it finished right before entourage started, I think. And
S2: that's obviously, you know, often entourage was called like the
S2: male version of sex and the city. But like, you know,
S2: there that version of friendship, like, Carrie is famously the
S2: worst friend in the world. Like, I think there are.
S2: I mean, you know, you've only seen a few episodes,
S2: but there is a lot in this show that like
S2: that bonds them. Aside from like getting fucked up and
S2: having sex and stuff like you have like, you know,
S2: Johnny constantly kind of being the the fact that he's
S2: just like the punch line for him is that he
S2: can't quite achieve anything, but like, they really, like deal
S2: with shit like that. Like, I do think that the
S2: standard may be low for like TV shows exploring or
S2: really like interrogating male friendship? I think this show tried
S2: to do it.
S3: Nah, I don't think so.
S4: No, I think so.
S1: I mean like is it is is is Carrie telling
S1: her friends she would never have sex with the bisexual man?
S1: You know better or worse than EA helping Vin navigate
S1: like a professional crisis.
S4: I think it's the.
S3: Level of engagement. Like, I guess there are two things. Like,
S3: if we're talking about what this show says about friendships,
S3: obviously the friendships in sex and the city are more
S3: intensely examined, like those dynamics are way more complicated. And
S3: when they're talking about sex, it's brought to the table
S3: for discussion. Whereas I think in this show, it's like
S3: the throwaway line of virgins are too much responsibility. Or
S3: have you ever fucked a girl on it, period. Like,
S3: that's not a kind of interesting or developed discussion. And
S3: it doesn't have to be. And they're there questions. But like,
S3: I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't it's
S3: not attempting to be men seriously unpacking relations with women.
S3: It's not intending to be that. And I don't think
S3: it does do that. Um, so yeah, I don't really
S3: buy the argument that it's like an insightful way of discussing.
S1: No, I think we're actually probably more in agreement on
S1: this one than in disagreement, because I also don't think
S1: it is like, you know, the holy grail of like,
S1: good conversation. I'm just trying to say that there was
S1: so few of those things happening in television that it
S1: actually is a bit like, oh, wow, men are talking
S1: about like any like, the bar is so low here
S1: that just men talking about anything to do with their lives,
S1: their families, sex existed. And I'm like, I'm not trying
S1: to say that like, men are underrepresented or were underrepresented
S1: in television, but it is kind of stark to think
S1: that what other dramas that existed before entourage of groups
S1: of men existing together and talking about things that aren't teenage, like,
S1: you know, Nano 2.0 or the OC, that sort of
S1: stuff that was very like in high school stuff for
S1: people in that kind of like 20s. I don't know
S1: what that show was. And certainly by the time Thomas
S1: and I were teenagers, I don't know what that show
S1: was that was on.
S3: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, sex and
S3: the city made an impact in the same way, in
S3: the sense that it was an avenue to show women
S3: on TV talking about their issues. I mean, I do.
S3: I know you keep saying you couldn't relate to Sopranos,
S3: but I do think that Mr. Soprano is a far
S3: more relatable male than anyone in this show. No respect.
S3: Like he struggles with his role in the family.
S4: And the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah,
S4: I fucking get this shit. But like.
S3: It's a far more relatable presentation of what it is
S3: to be human. This is fantasy and that's fine. Like,
S3: I think we just need to be like, it is fantasy.
S3: It is a projection. It is. It's the cinema of desire.
S3: If we want to get Freudian on it like it's just.
S2: Fantasy, it is fantasy. But the dynamic between those four
S2: guys like for better or worse, definitely like because essentially
S2: they're like, they've all got like Arrested Development, they're basically
S2: high schoolers. The dynamic between to.
S1: Tell you, Mel, when four guys get together, that's what they.
S4: Talk about.
S2: It's very similar to how like people interact, like in
S2: high school, like how and like, you know, there's always
S2: someone trying to be the big dog. Everyone's taking the
S2: piss out of each other like that. That's not like like,
S2: I'm sorry to say, my group of friends was a
S2: lot more like that than, like, fucking Sal and Tony
S2: and Christopher sitting at fucking Satriale's.
S3: Though you did eat a lot of ham.
S4: Yeah. I mean.
S2: Yeah, we had the cured meats, but that was where
S2: I stopped.
S1: There's a problem with, um, problem with modern society is that, uh,
S1: a lot of women of a certain age grow up
S1: watching sex in the city and thought that's what they
S1: should emulate. A lot of men grew up watching entourage.
S1: That's what they should emulate. Everyone in politics and media
S1: watched The fucking West Wing and thought that's what they
S1: should emulate. We're all kind of like breaking the world
S1: because we were raised by kind of weird and kind
S1: of fucked up HBO shows.
S3: Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's probably true. And that's
S3: why I always think that, like, it's good to discuss
S3: these shows and their meaning, even if it's not like
S3: what the show is intending to do and like. It's
S3: not about the expectation of the show, but it did
S3: influence so many people. And the type of men and
S3: women we have today are a result of pop culture,
S3: and it's why culture is so important. Yeah, that's.
S1: Why it's so interesting, because we can all acknowledge the
S1: limits as to how good or bad it was. But
S1: the reality was it did influence human beings in terms
S1: of their thinking and approach to stuff. Thomas, you spoke
S1: to Doug Ellin, the creator of the show. What did
S1: you learn from him about entourage during the time and
S1: its legacy?
S2: Um, I think he has a complicated relationship with the legacy. Uh, he,
S2: you know, especially like, you know, the 20th anniversary was
S2: just last week. Um, HBO, like, maybe put up a
S2: single Instagram post, um, to celebrate it. And, you know, like,
S2: it's fair to say that had this been the 20th
S2: anniversary of sex and the city, it would have been
S2: a much bigger deal. Um, so he is very much,
S2: I would say, like a bit defensive about what's happened
S2: to the show. Um, especially like his relationship with HBO
S2: has disintegrated a lot, and he thinks they basically have
S2: tried to distance themselves. Um, and I do think, you know,
S2: in some ways I try to understand where he was
S2: coming from. Like, I think he really is just like
S2: it was 2004, you know, like, this was what I knew. I,
S2: you know, this was my life. I spoke to Mark Wahlberg.
S2: We wrote a fun show like that was it. And
S2: now he's like, kind of frantically trying to figure out
S2: what's happened to his show. And, you know, like, not
S2: that we need to feel bad for Doug Ellin. At
S2: the same time, he is doing a lot of like,
S2: you know, overtime trying to be like, nah, it was
S2: all 100%. All of it was satire.
S4: Yeah. And it's like.
S2: You know, look, man.
S1: I it was a comment on how like, Ari was
S1: a racist or whatever.
S2: Yes. And I was like, look, man, I love the show,
S2: you know, at the time and stuff. And I still
S2: enjoy watching it, but like, you know, all of them
S2: fucking all these girls all the time is not like a,
S2: you know, biting satire on, you know, the power of
S2: fame and being a famous actor. Like, sometimes you were
S2: just doing it because it was like fun shit to
S2: film and you knew that your audience would absolutely lap
S2: it up.
S3: Yeah. And I kind of get his like, I get.
S3: I imagine no creator ever wants to make something that
S3: is so dated. And not only a career not only
S3: makes something that is so of its time, but is
S3: so now retrospectively often shorthand for like a red flag. Um, yeah.
S3: So I kind of get why he is on the
S3: defensive about it.
S4: I mean.
S1: In 20 years now, when people talk about the anniversary
S1: of this podcast will be claiming, oh, no, no, that
S1: was all satire. Don't worry about it, guys.
S3: I already used that excuse.
S4: Yes.
S2: So I thought that was interesting. Um, and then basically
S2: he just kind of like, does a lot of podcasts
S2: now plays a lot of pickleball.
S3: Um, did he ever make anything again?
S2: Well, no. So he's kind of, uh, like, no is
S2: the answer. He's basically got a pilot, um, featuring Charlie
S2: and Martin Sheen, uh, and a bunch of the guys
S2: from entourage, but it hasn't been able to get finance yet. So, yeah,
S2: he kind of, I guess he just he kind of
S2: talks about his experiences in the industry in this new
S2: podcast he has. But yeah, he definitely has been impacted,
S2: I think, a lot by the the response to entourage
S2: probably beginning, I think, with the movie which he directed
S2: and wrote and which did not do very well. And
S2: then kind of I guess since then the show has
S2: increasingly been, you know, viewed poorly and seems to have
S2: aged poorly. And I think that's left an imprint on him,
S2: as would anyone. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting chat.
S1: It's interesting how few shows like it have existed. The
S1: only show I could think of that really fell right
S1: into this space is Ballers. Do you guys watch this? Yeah.
S4: I love the show.
S3: I love Dwayne Johnson.
S4: Yeah.
S1: Dwayne Johnson, uh, John David Washington, it's executive produced by
S1: Mark Wahlberg. So some of that entourage DNA is there.
S1: And it's a similar thing. Right. It's about sports managers
S1: and and uh, the NFL a lot of party scenes,
S1: a lot of music, a little bit more updated like
S1: this came out in 2015. So it doesn't feel kind
S1: of as cringe. And, you know, a lot of discussion
S1: about like, race because this is about a lot of
S1: players who are black. It was pretty interesting. It wasn't
S1: like that. Great. I don't think it has like a
S1: huge legacy or anything like that. But um, as I
S1: was going to say this out loud, I realized how
S1: silly it sounds, but a real noticeable, like lack of
S1: drama comedy shows about dudes hanging out together.
S2: Thank you for that. Thank you for being a thank
S2: you for being brave enough to say it.
S4: Well, it feels.
S1: Weird to say that because, like, again, I don't think like,
S1: you know, my point isn't like, this is why everyone's
S1: voting for Trump. Because men don't have shows anymore. But
S1: in this space of like, beyond kind of like action,
S1: you know, and maybe like outright comedy or whatever, like
S1: the space of the dramedy where there is some ongoing
S1: kind of relationships that shift and change, and it's the
S1: dynamics of a group of men, or even if it's
S1: a group of men interacting with like other women. There's
S1: not that many shows like that.
S3: I don't think there are any shows like purely. Well,
S3: not that I can think of off the top of
S3: my head. I'm sure there are, and people will let
S3: us know, but I think it's more because the real
S3: world has women in it. So women are more than just,
S3: I guess, the people they have sex with. Like so
S3: I think there are shows that focus on male.
S4: You can have a.
S1: Show, you can have a show like girls, which focuses
S1: on men. That doesn't just reduce women to like objects
S1: of sex.
S3: So you want the men to be the central characters.
S4: Like, I want.
S1: Boys, I want the show boys. Yeah.
S4: But aren't.
S3: They okay? Yeah.
S4: Look.
S3: I mean, the bear, everything revolves around.
S1: The bear is probably. You know what? The bear is
S1: probably a good shot. The bear is a show where
S1: you see a lot of men and, like, it's actually
S1: a really good, um, a really good example of this,
S1: where it's broad, there's a whole bunch of characters from
S1: all sorts of different backgrounds and whatever. But like you
S1: do see a group of men who relate to each
S1: other and to other people in a dramatic and funny way.
S4: That's a really good point.
S3: Presumed innocent.
S4: That doesn't count. Don't know if that counts.
S3: A man and a group of men. Yeah, there's one woman.
S4: A lot of.
S1: Them, I feel like, are couched in very genre ways. Like.
S1: Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. We've talked about it
S1: like all those things come up, but they kind of
S1: smuggled in. Maybe that's because programmers know that men wouldn't watch,
S1: like a very earnest, like, entourage. But it's woke, right?
S1: I don't know what the demographic is for that. So
S1: they're like, let's have shows like Ozark and Breaking Bad
S1: that are very gritty, justified, that sort of stuff. And
S1: then in that we'll have some really strong plotlines about
S1: men relating to each other. Honestly, this probably is why
S1: people are voting for Donald Trump. I hate to break.
S4: It to you guys.
S3: Well, I was reading today a really interesting story about
S3: how rare the mail reader is. 80% of book buyers
S3: in the UK and the US are women, and they
S3: the piece was linking it to kind of the Andrew
S3: Tate ification of society, where men are, you know, the
S3: kind of gains attitude. Um, I mean, I hadn't really
S3: kind of linked that before and thought that was interesting
S3: to I mean, I don't know if that's relevant to
S3: what we're talking about, but sums of how men engaged
S3: with culture.
S2: A co-worker of ours yesterday did say that this was
S2: a show. Entourage was a show for Andrew Tates, which
S2: I thought was particularly offensive.
S3: That is interesting.
S4: That is really.
S1: Offensive. All right, on to our, uh, final regular segment,
S1: Impress Your Friends, where we share something we watched, read,
S1: listen to, or otherwise consumed in culture in the past week. Uh,
S1: mine's a bit cheeky. Um, I am very excited about
S1: industry season three dropping in a couple of weeks. I
S1: think it's August 12th. I've been doing a rewatch of
S1: seasons one and two. I really like the show. It's fun.
S1: It's like called a slightly dumber mix of succession and euphoria. Like,
S1: that's fair enough. It's set in the high powered world
S1: of finance in London. A bunch of young people get
S1: their cadetships, I guess, traineeships there. They try and like
S1: do deals and they have a lot of sex and
S1: they do a lot of drugs. It's kind of soapy.
S1: It's kind of silly. There's a lot of finance jargon.
S1: I have no idea how accurate it is. I don't
S1: really care. It's pretty cool. Um, if you're not across
S1: it at all, get onto it. It's on, uh, binge.
S1: It's an HBO show. It's on binge and get hype
S1: in time for season three. Mel, what have you got
S1: for us?
S3: I have a very good book. It's called Kairos, and
S3: it makes me sad that not more people are reading. Um,
S3: it won the International Booker Prize. It's by Jenny Erpenbeck
S3: and translated by Michael Hofmann. It's about this love affair
S3: between a student and a married man. There's kind of
S3: 30 years between them. They meet on a bus in
S3: East Berlin and their whole relationship, which is really destructive
S3: and complicated relationship, um, kind of intellectually and emotionally charged. Um,
S3: and it's set against the backdrop of the collapse of
S3: kind of East Germany and the end of the the
S3: Communist dream. It's this really beautiful book. It's hard to explain.
S3: It's about power, art, culture. Um, and it's quite a
S3: bleak outlook on life. Um, but it is, uh, it's
S3: a book that's kind of it moved me in ways
S3: that not much contemporary literature does. Um, so yeah, I
S3: think it's well worth adding to the list, and I
S3: think you would both really like it.
S1: I love hearing you talk about books, Mel. It's very
S1: insightful and you're really passionate about it, and I get
S1: very excited every time you mention them. So thank you
S1: for that.
S3: Thank you. As you can. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll send
S3: a copy up to you.
S4: I think you'd have.
S1: To buy me a book. Mel, I'm your boss. It's okay.
S4: Yeah.
S1: Uh, Thomas, what.
S4: Have you got?
S2: Just to stay on trend, my recommendation is set in
S2: the world of blood sport. Um, now, this is one
S2: that's actually kind of flown under the radar. It is
S2: a TV series. It's those about to die. Uh, are
S2: you guys across this?
S4: Oh, the Roman Empire? Yes. Okay.
S1: Anthony Hopkins is the guy.
S2: Yeah, man. This is this has got big, um, Oz energy. Yeah. So. Yeah.
S1: Tell us about it.
S2: It's all ten episodes. So firstly, straight up it's a
S2: binge it on the weekend vibe. All ten episodes available
S2: on Prime now. And basically like, you know, obviously we're
S2: in a bit of a kind of like gladiator mood
S2: right now with Gladiator two coming. And, you know, obviously
S2: every so often we get these shows like, remember, HBO
S2: did their big Money Like Rome show years ago that
S2: they only gave.
S1: Yeah, I loved Roman.
S2: Two seasons two, which was a fucking crime against TV.
S2: Probably the worst decision they made since cancelling entourage. But
S2: Those about to die is basically like it's set in
S2: the world of the gladiator games and, you know, kind
S2: of in a similar way. It's like a succession meets
S2: Rome meets like almost like a ballers. Like we get
S2: the politics of the sport set against the backdrop of
S2: the Roman Empire. Basically, Anthony Hopkins plays the Emperor, who's
S2: like very much on his last legs. He's like slowly widening.
S2: And yet as he's kind of like dying wish he
S2: wants to reinvigorate these, you know, the gladiator games. And
S2: when I first got told about this, I was like, oh,
S2: this sounds like it has all the elements of being
S2: a stinker. Like, you know, big celebrity attached. That probably
S2: doesn't give a fuck about the project. Just another Roman
S2: show like this will just come and go that no
S2: one will ever talk about it. Watch a couple of episodes.
S2: It is so well done. They've spent a lot of
S2: money on it. Um, like, the set dressing is incredible.
S2: Huge cast, but like, everyone gets equal billing and there's
S2: great character arcs. I really think this is the type
S2: of show that you can like. You put on one
S2: and then like before you know it, you've got bed
S2: sores because you've been there for ten hours.
S1: Uh, great chats to him. Great episode, a lot of fun.
S1: Can't wait to find out what JD Vance thinks about
S1: Deadpool versus Wolverine. We'll talk about that next week. Uh.
S1: Take care. See you.
S4: Then. Stay bright.
S2: All right, cue the entourage theme song.
UU: Yeah, yeah, yeah, My mind had been in limbo. In
UU: the memory you overflow. Wanna be your super hero? Or
UU: even if I tumble, fall. I'm okay.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Huang.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
S1: with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!