WEBVTT - The rise and fall of Brat culture. Plus, 'Entourage' turns 20 0:00:07.940 --> 0:00:11.300 Hey there, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, 0:00:11.300 --> 0:00:13.730 a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and 0:00:13.730 --> 0:00:16.400 The Age, where we dive into the latest in the 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.849 world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas 0:00:19.850 --> 0:00:22.610 Mitchell and Mel Cambry. What's up gang? Good evening. 0:00:22.610 --> 0:00:26.239 Wherever you're listening to this podcast or it might be morning. 0:00:26.270 --> 0:00:29.410 Thomas is trying to be funny because I said to him, look, 0:00:29.410 --> 0:00:31.540 it's nice that you say good morning when we talk. 0:00:31.540 --> 0:00:34.480 I appreciate that, but podcasts are listened to at all 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.809 hours of the day. We don't want to shatter the illusion. 0:00:37.810 --> 0:00:40.600 You know that this only exists in one particular moment 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:41.350 in time. 0:00:41.350 --> 0:00:45.160 Yes, well, I'm on board now, so wherever or whenever 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.350 you might be listening to this, I hope you are good. 0:00:47.350 --> 0:00:47.740 It's very. 0:00:47.740 --> 0:00:49.839 Sweet. Thank you. Mel, how are you doing? 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.930 I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I feel like I. 0:00:52.930 --> 0:00:54.520 I'm glad we've got to a stage where I can 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.820 mitigate all responsibility for having to answer you. When you say, 0:00:57.820 --> 0:01:00.310 how are you? Like, it's just now assumed that Thomas 0:01:00.310 --> 0:01:02.560 will take on that that role. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.550 You did have one more responsibility. 0:01:06.910 --> 0:01:08.170 How were you, Osman? Oh. 0:01:08.380 --> 0:01:13.060 Not fulfilled. Oh, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking, guys. Um, well, 0:01:13.060 --> 0:01:16.720 you know, I've. I've started boxing lessons this week. Um, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:18.900 I wanted to add a little bit of cardio to 0:01:18.900 --> 0:01:21.869 my workout regime. And boxing seems like a really fun 0:01:21.870 --> 0:01:23.699 way to do it, and it was really fun. But 0:01:23.700 --> 0:01:27.569 I will say my arms are quite sore and tired now. Um, Thomas, 0:01:27.569 --> 0:01:29.850 I know that you box regularly. Do you have any 0:01:29.850 --> 0:01:31.410 tips or tricks for me? 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.620 Uh, look, I think firstly, I think it's a really 0:01:34.620 --> 0:01:36.929 good thing for you. Um, just to work out some 0:01:36.930 --> 0:01:40.290 of your issues. You know, just like if you're going 0:01:40.290 --> 0:01:43.010 to be hitting the bag, that's the bag to hit. Um, 0:01:44.300 --> 0:01:46.310 I think no, I think it's really good. If we're going. 0:01:46.310 --> 0:01:48.080 To be hitting something, it's better or a punching bag 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:48.500 than you. 0:01:48.620 --> 0:01:51.710 Correct? Uh, no. Look, just keep your guard up, man. Um, 0:01:51.710 --> 0:01:54.500 you know, Tyson said that everyone has a plan until 0:01:54.500 --> 0:01:56.570 they get punched in the face. Um, he also said 0:01:56.570 --> 0:01:59.600 a bunch of other dumb shit, but I think it's 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.900 really good. I'm here. And, Mel, you've done some boxercise before. 0:02:02.900 --> 0:02:05.300 I haven't actually fought a story. I went to a 0:02:05.300 --> 0:02:09.350 muay Thai boxing class with the person I was profiling, 0:02:09.350 --> 0:02:11.780 and I found it. The most difficult thing was like, 0:02:11.780 --> 0:02:14.660 I couldn't remember the, what do you call it, the 0:02:15.020 --> 0:02:17.630 like when you do a whole like, like a whole 0:02:17.630 --> 0:02:20.750 series of punches and kicks. I like, really struggled to 0:02:20.750 --> 0:02:25.250 remember like a mortal Kombat, like when you're doing an uppercut, fly, kick. 0:02:25.460 --> 0:02:27.559 I could not remember the order. I found that very difficult. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:29.090 Do you find that challenging, Osman? 0:02:29.090 --> 0:02:31.810 Well, I'm really just starting. So it was like, you know, 0:02:31.810 --> 0:02:34.030 left jab, left jab, right jab, left hook. Like I 0:02:34.030 --> 0:02:34.660 could remember that. 0:02:34.660 --> 0:02:36.250 What's your kind of killer punch, though? 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.190 Uh, I got, like, a right hook. Yeah, yeah. 0:02:39.190 --> 0:02:40.120 Yeah, I can see. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.400 It. Is this in a class? Right? This isn't. No, I. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.710 Just do it one on one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. 0:02:44.710 --> 0:02:45.220 Just Osman. 0:02:45.220 --> 0:02:46.210 Versus demons. 0:02:46.870 --> 0:02:50.860 I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong on that front. Um, well, 0:02:50.860 --> 0:02:52.420 I was going to say first things first, but we've 0:02:52.419 --> 0:02:54.090 spent a bit of time talking about my boxing. So, 0:02:54.090 --> 0:02:57.480 second topic of today's podcast. Um, we need to acknowledge 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.710 Thomas's psychic abilities twice in a row. Now, he is 0:03:01.710 --> 0:03:05.220 predicted the state of origin result and the final score. 0:03:05.220 --> 0:03:07.680 Kind of. Can't believe it, I was doubtful what a 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.510 time to be alive. The Blues did take it home 0:03:09.510 --> 0:03:11.040 within the margin you predicted, Thomas. 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.920 Yeah, I mean, also doubtful is completely underselling what your 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:18.540 response was. Both of you. You were mocking me. Um. and, 0:03:18.540 --> 0:03:21.690 you know, just like saying how outrageous it was that 0:03:21.930 --> 0:03:24.300 let alone I would suggest the Blues would win, that 0:03:24.300 --> 0:03:27.660 they would win in Queensland and by that scoreline and yeah, 0:03:27.660 --> 0:03:30.180 once again, it's a big win for the Thomas heads 0:03:30.180 --> 0:03:33.810 out there. Uh and and also we all win because 0:03:33.810 --> 0:03:36.000 New South Wales won. Uh that's true. We all. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:36.810 Did win. We all did. 0:03:36.810 --> 0:03:39.180 Sweet. It was when Bradman best crossed over for that 0:03:39.180 --> 0:03:40.320 try Osman. 0:03:40.770 --> 0:03:44.210 Oh my God it was incredible. Our text messages were 0:03:44.210 --> 0:03:46.070 just ecstatic, full of pure joy. 0:03:46.070 --> 0:03:48.050 And this was the first time I've kind of watched 0:03:48.050 --> 0:03:50.750 The State of Origin, all three of them. What I 0:03:50.750 --> 0:03:52.490 found most shocking, and that was mainly off the back 0:03:52.490 --> 0:03:55.340 of Thomas's encouragement. Um, what I found most shocking was 0:03:55.340 --> 0:03:59.180 that the sin bin is a metaphorical concept, that they 0:03:59.180 --> 0:04:01.280 just go and sit on the bench. I found that, 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:01.850 what do you think? 0:04:01.850 --> 0:04:04.010 That they were put in a literal bin? 0:04:04.010 --> 0:04:05.900 Not in a literal bin, but I thought they went 0:04:05.900 --> 0:04:08.530 somewhere for like time out by themselves. Like they didn't 0:04:08.530 --> 0:04:10.510 just get to go and sit with their mates and, like, 0:04:10.510 --> 0:04:13.570 get Gatorade and relax. They should go and sit somewhere 0:04:13.570 --> 0:04:15.190 where they are made to feel ashamed. 0:04:15.190 --> 0:04:17.469 They do typically go into the dressing room and then 0:04:17.470 --> 0:04:18.880 right before they come back on, I think they come 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:19.659 back to the bench. 0:04:19.660 --> 0:04:20.260 Okay. Right. 0:04:20.260 --> 0:04:21.849 So they are they are in a bin. I think you're. 0:04:21.850 --> 0:04:24.910 Confused because there was a player, um, was Angus Crichton, 0:04:24.910 --> 0:04:27.850 who was who just preemptively sat down before he was 0:04:27.850 --> 0:04:29.380 sin binned. And then he had to get up and 0:04:29.380 --> 0:04:30.539 then was sent to the sin bin. 0:04:30.540 --> 0:04:32.520 Yeah, okay. Maybe that threw me. There you go. I'm 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:33.330 still learning. 0:04:33.510 --> 0:04:36.779 Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a 0:04:36.779 --> 0:04:39.570 great night for everyone and, um, probably, you know, winning 0:04:39.570 --> 0:04:42.510 State of Origin in Queensland, one of the great male fantasies. 0:04:45.060 --> 0:04:48.300 Speaking of great male fantasies, can you guys believe it's 0:04:48.300 --> 0:04:52.530 been 20 years since entourage debuted on HBO? God damn, 0:04:52.529 --> 0:04:56.340 we are old folks. That is crazy. Uh, the show, 0:04:56.339 --> 0:04:59.669 I think, shaped way more men in way more ways 0:04:59.670 --> 0:05:02.190 than they will ever willingly admit that perhaps Thomas and 0:05:02.190 --> 0:05:05.279 I will admit that on the podcast a little bit later, uh, 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.409 we're going to discuss why it's the greatest show of 0:05:07.410 --> 0:05:12.719 all time, while Mel mercilessly mocks us for being retrograde Neanderthals. Uh, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.350 we're also going to discuss the extraordinary dominance of Charli 0:05:16.350 --> 0:05:20.510 Xcx's brat. Not just the music, but the vibe, the aesthetic, 0:05:20.540 --> 0:05:23.750 the memes, the brat summer the Northern Hemisphere has had 0:05:23.750 --> 0:05:26.060 over the past couple of months, and talk about how 0:05:26.060 --> 0:05:30.410 maybe brat Summer has reached a peak and potential decline 0:05:30.410 --> 0:05:34.220 with the political embrace of the meme, in particularly Kamala 0:05:34.220 --> 0:05:38.089 Harris aligning herself so closely with this kind of funny, 0:05:38.089 --> 0:05:41.719 weird countercultural brand. And speaking of Harris, we talked a 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.799 little bit about US politics last week. It's very funny 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.080 for us as a pop culture podcast to weigh in, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.419 and I am keen to get your guys takes on, 0:05:49.420 --> 0:05:52.600 you know, who Kamala should pick as her vice president. 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.590 But there's been a real convergence of pop culture and politics. 0:05:56.589 --> 0:05:59.260 This is a very American thing. Obviously, they're very into 0:05:59.260 --> 0:06:04.180 their celebs running for President Reagan, Schwarzenegger as governor. Trump himself, 0:06:04.180 --> 0:06:08.919 I guess, is like a cultural celebrity turned politician. Uh, 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.870 I would say maybe now we're living in a period 0:06:10.870 --> 0:06:14.950 where there's a little bit too much pop culture in politics. 0:06:15.130 --> 0:06:17.920 George Clooney wrote that opinion piece for The New York 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.770 Times that, I guess, kind of started the avalanche of 0:06:20.770 --> 0:06:23.140 people saying Biden should step down. I don't know if 0:06:23.140 --> 0:06:27.580 you guys caught Aaron Sorkin's op ed on the weekend, 0:06:27.580 --> 0:06:30.810 he wrote. So Aaron Sorkin, obviously creator of The West Wing, 0:06:30.810 --> 0:06:34.680 Sports Night, The Newsroom, he wrote The Social Network, Molly's Game, 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.440 very well known writer, and a lot of people love 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.210 to make fun of The West Wing for how kind 0:06:39.210 --> 0:06:41.430 of cringe it was in its politics at the time, 0:06:41.430 --> 0:06:44.280 and this kind of small l liberal fantasy. He wrote 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.230 the most Aaron Sorkin opinion piece of all time, where 0:06:46.230 --> 0:06:49.170 he was like, Joe Biden should step down and I 0:06:49.170 --> 0:06:52.260 know who should be the nominee. It should be Mitt Romney, 0:06:52.260 --> 0:06:55.460 the Republican, and people like Aaron Sorkin. That is crazy. 0:06:55.460 --> 0:06:57.740 And then the timing was hilarious because two hours later, 0:06:57.740 --> 0:07:00.440 Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris was the nominee, and 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.870 Sorkin tweeted something like, oh, no, no. Just for the record, 0:07:02.870 --> 0:07:04.310 I agree with Kamala. This is really good. This is 0:07:04.310 --> 0:07:07.789 really good. Um, real galaxy brain stuff for him. But 0:07:07.790 --> 0:07:10.310 seeing the list of celebrities kind of come out and 0:07:10.310 --> 0:07:13.550 say things. Spike Lee was very quick to, to throw 0:07:13.550 --> 0:07:16.190 his support. I think he called Kamala like de Gaulle 0:07:16.190 --> 0:07:18.800 or something like that. Uh, good on you, spike. Uh, 0:07:18.810 --> 0:07:22.020 Robert De Niro said thank you to Joe Biden for 0:07:22.020 --> 0:07:25.110 stepping down. One man in his 80s, you know, applauding 0:07:25.110 --> 0:07:28.230 another man in his 80s, um, hopefully doesn't mean that 0:07:28.230 --> 0:07:30.720 De Niro will also step down from his acting prime. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.080 And then, on the other hand, Trump has Hulk Hogan 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.420 and Kid Rock. Did you guys watch any of those 0:07:36.420 --> 0:07:39.090 performances from the RNC? What did you make of it? 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.160 Ah, I mean, like as a WWE fan, when I 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.110 in my younger years, I was like, oh, Hulk Hogan's 0:07:45.110 --> 0:07:49.430 still alive. Barely. But yeah, I mean, it is very funny. Like, 0:07:49.430 --> 0:07:53.210 I guess just like seeing kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. Like, 0:07:53.210 --> 0:07:56.180 if you were to find two celebs that were like 0:07:56.180 --> 0:07:59.750 so aligned with Trumpland, I suppose that makes sense. But 0:07:59.750 --> 0:08:03.710 I think generally, like on both sides, people have this real, 0:08:03.710 --> 0:08:06.590 I think, like pushback against seeing any time they feel 0:08:06.590 --> 0:08:08.970 that a celebrity is like, you know, kind of trying 0:08:08.970 --> 0:08:10.980 to push them in a particular way or, you know, 0:08:10.980 --> 0:08:13.470 just even involve with the political movement. I think our, 0:08:13.470 --> 0:08:16.680 you know, like suspicion of celebrity kind of activism is 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.590 so high right now that, like, I don't know how 0:08:19.590 --> 0:08:21.930 much weight. I mean, you're right in that the Clooney piece, 0:08:21.930 --> 0:08:25.380 I think did he's such a big, important Democrat. He's 0:08:25.380 --> 0:08:28.050 like almost like his relationship to the Democrats is less 0:08:28.050 --> 0:08:29.850 of like a celebrity thing. Like he's properly involved. 0:08:29.850 --> 0:08:32.340 Yes. Yeah. He's like a major donor and yeah, like 0:08:32.340 --> 0:08:33.240 that that held weight. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.030 But I think generally we're wary of celebrity activism now 0:08:36.030 --> 0:08:37.530 on both sides of the corridor. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.170 Yeah, I think that's probably true. And they've become like 0:08:40.170 --> 0:08:44.429 obviously increasingly visible players in global politics because of their 0:08:44.429 --> 0:08:47.189 fanbases and their media reach and their access to their 0:08:47.190 --> 0:08:51.240 own platforms. Um, it's probably it's an interesting question for democracy, 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.000 really not to make it too serious because there. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.540 Make it serious, man. We're talking about the presidential election. 0:08:56.540 --> 0:08:57.439 This is serious stuff. 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.840 That's true because there are power comes from their ability 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.439 to kind of attract attention, but they have no political expertise. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.140 So I mean, that is kind of, you know, whether 0:09:06.140 --> 0:09:09.770 that translates to electoral influence and policy is an interesting question. 0:09:09.770 --> 0:09:11.870 I don't actually think it does. Same with you, Thomas. Like, 0:09:11.870 --> 0:09:15.199 I don't know if it's it changes, um, the, the 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.630 poll results. And we have seen in the past high 0:09:17.630 --> 0:09:21.400 profile endorsements, really high profile endorsements that have made no difference. 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.430 I think maybe it has the biggest impact on the 0:09:24.429 --> 0:09:28.810 celebrity's public image. Like that's actually where the biggest change is. 0:09:28.990 --> 0:09:32.140 Because it's funny already, like with the like Kamala thing. 0:09:32.140 --> 0:09:35.650 It's like so many people I've seen tweeting like, Where's Taylor? 0:09:35.650 --> 0:09:38.350 Like kind of waiting for the Taylor drop to be like, 0:09:38.350 --> 0:09:40.630 you know, and maybe she is one of the few 0:09:40.630 --> 0:09:42.580 people that still can, like move the needle. Like if 0:09:42.580 --> 0:09:45.700 Taylor Swift came out in support of Kamala. Really hardcore, 0:09:45.700 --> 0:09:48.070 you know, like telling people to vote, telling people to 0:09:48.070 --> 0:09:52.569 sign up, would that maybe, you know, change things? 0:09:52.570 --> 0:09:54.640 I actually agree with you that that is maybe the 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.830 one person that could I largely agree with what you 0:09:56.830 --> 0:09:59.470 guys have said. I think in an American political context, 0:09:59.470 --> 0:10:01.900 someone reminded me of this yesterday. We'll talk more about 0:10:01.900 --> 0:10:04.300 the Charlie Kamala thing. And I was like, well, does 0:10:04.300 --> 0:10:07.689 that really matter if someone like Taylor Swift or Charli 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.620 XCX endorses Kamala Harris? Like how many, you know, 22 0:10:11.620 --> 0:10:13.449 year olds listening to brat are like, well, I was 0:10:13.450 --> 0:10:16.030 going to vote for Trump, but now Charli has come out, 0:10:16.030 --> 0:10:18.310 I might switch. But then they reminded me that the 0:10:18.309 --> 0:10:22.360 US has their, uh, you know, non-compulsory voting system. And 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.400 there's a lot of young people who feel very cynical 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.849 about both sides and might just stay home, but someone 0:10:27.850 --> 0:10:30.070 like Taylor Swift saying, hey guys, if you want to 0:10:30.070 --> 0:10:33.020 protect abortion rights or whatever, you should get organized and 0:10:33.020 --> 0:10:36.020 register and go vote. That could shift the dial in 0:10:36.020 --> 0:10:39.140 a way that probably like De Niro and Spike Lee 0:10:39.290 --> 0:10:41.210 even probably are not going to. 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.730 Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's very true, 0:10:43.730 --> 0:10:45.950 because I think the fact that they don't have to 0:10:45.950 --> 0:10:49.730 compulsorily vote is really where the power of these celebrities lies, 0:10:49.730 --> 0:10:51.500 particularly for the for the Democrats. 0:10:51.530 --> 0:10:53.270 Before we move on from this one, I just there's 0:10:53.270 --> 0:10:54.800 a regular segment we're going to have now is like 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.900 what JD Vance is up to. We had a lot 0:10:56.900 --> 0:10:59.809 of fun talking about him last week. This is Trump's, uh, 0:10:59.809 --> 0:11:04.489 pick for the vice presidency. Um, the author that Mel loves, uh, 0:11:04.490 --> 0:11:09.140 really funny, interesting people found his, like, blogspot from 2011 0:11:09.140 --> 0:11:11.929 or maybe even earlier where he, he talks about, like, 0:11:11.929 --> 0:11:15.230 his life traveling from Ohio to Yale and, you know, 0:11:15.230 --> 0:11:18.590 his kind of suburban malaise. Uh, Henry gave us a 0:11:18.590 --> 0:11:21.280 little bit of a review of Garden State, the Zach 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.640 Braff film. So he's talking about being in the airport, 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.760 and he says, I couldn't watch Garden State because New 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.329 Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's. The music is 0:11:31.330 --> 0:11:34.030 so relevant to my life right now. And the story 0:11:34.030 --> 0:11:36.400 of a guy returning home, realizing that home isn't what 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.610 it used to be, etc. made me want to tear up. 0:11:39.610 --> 0:11:42.520 I mean, that's Garden State in a nutshell, right? It really. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.140 Is. I never really I can't believe he was like 0:11:44.140 --> 0:11:45.210 a shins guy. 0:11:46.590 --> 0:11:49.680 Lebanese blonde by Thievery Corp, just, you know, makes him weep. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:50.550 Still to this day. 0:11:50.550 --> 0:11:52.950 It's so strange how he's managed to make something quite 0:11:52.950 --> 0:11:55.349 banal sound so poignant. 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.589 You can't get off this hype train at all, can you, man? 0:11:58.650 --> 0:11:59.580 You're just like, damn. 0:11:59.580 --> 0:12:01.770 I want more. I mean, also, I'd love to imagine 0:12:01.770 --> 0:12:04.229 what was on your blogspot of 2011. 0:12:04.230 --> 0:12:06.330 Well, honestly, when I saw that, I was like, shit, 0:12:06.330 --> 0:12:07.140 is that still up? 0:12:07.140 --> 0:12:09.320 Yeah, I probably need to do like a bit of did. 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:10.189 You really blog? 0:12:10.250 --> 0:12:12.260 I mean, it's best not to talk about it. Uh, 0:12:12.260 --> 0:12:14.960 is there a JD Vance review of The Legend of 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:16.940 Bagger Vance? Because that I think. 0:12:19.190 --> 0:12:22.250 That's really funny. That's really funny. Um, yeah. My blog 0:12:22.250 --> 0:12:24.439 when I was a teenager was about New South Wales 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:25.610 state politics. That's how cool. 0:12:25.610 --> 0:12:26.240 Oh my God. 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.730 Wow. It was called Macquarie Street. 0:12:28.730 --> 0:12:30.710 It's set in a dune world. 0:12:30.710 --> 0:12:33.719 Yeah. interpreted through fiction. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.059 It wasn't fan fiction, maybe. I don't know what's lamer 0:12:36.059 --> 0:12:38.670 that I was writing serious news stories when I was 15, 0:12:38.670 --> 0:12:42.900 or writing fan fiction about, um, Premier Nathan Rees. I 0:12:42.900 --> 0:12:46.110 was not doing that for the record. Um, that's a throwback. Uh, 0:12:46.110 --> 0:12:48.960 let's talk about brat. We discussed the album at length 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.720 when it was released on June 7th. It has become 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.170 Charli's biggest selling album yet, but I think what's become 0:12:55.170 --> 0:12:58.690 even bigger is the, I guess vibe, the meme, the 0:12:58.690 --> 0:13:02.320 aura around brat. How do you describe it? Well, according 0:13:02.350 --> 0:13:06.820 to Charlie herself, brat is a little messy, likes to party, 0:13:06.820 --> 0:13:11.110 and maybe says some dumb things sometime. Someone who feels herself, 0:13:11.110 --> 0:13:13.690 but then also maybe has a breakdown, but kind of 0:13:13.690 --> 0:13:17.079 like parties through it. They're very honest, very blunt, a 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:22.290 little bit volatile. Mel, in your group chats with girls. Women? 0:13:22.290 --> 0:13:25.260 Is that how you guys are describing yourselves these days? 0:13:25.260 --> 0:13:28.530 Is this is this the mood, the vibe amongst cool 0:13:28.890 --> 0:13:33.510 millennial Gen Z women? This kind of brat aura? 0:13:33.510 --> 0:13:36.839 I was hoping you might describe me as urbane again. That's, uh. 0:13:37.710 --> 0:13:41.580 I was really hoping that might make a reappearance. Uh, look, 0:13:41.580 --> 0:13:43.830 on a on one level, I find on the surface level, 0:13:43.830 --> 0:13:45.270 if I don't think about it too much, I find 0:13:45.300 --> 0:13:48.600 brat like the movement very fun. I think it's, uh, 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.920 it's a fun movement on the socials, and I think it's, uh, 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:54.810 it's people are having a lot of fun with it. 0:13:54.809 --> 0:13:57.390 If I really think about it, I guess, I mean, 0:13:57.390 --> 0:13:59.580 all kind of labels like that are kind of reductive 0:13:59.580 --> 0:14:02.490 and performative. Um, but I think the more interesting thing 0:14:02.490 --> 0:14:05.730 is like, what is brat reacting against? Like, why is 0:14:05.730 --> 0:14:08.310 brat having a moment? And I guess it's kind of 0:14:08.309 --> 0:14:13.220 moving against that clean girl aesthetic, which is dominated TikTok 0:14:13.220 --> 0:14:16.550 and also fashion. The idea of the put together girl 0:14:16.550 --> 0:14:19.940 with the slick backed bun and the neutral nails and 0:14:19.940 --> 0:14:22.910 the the clothes that don't kind of stand out. Like 0:14:22.910 --> 0:14:25.820 it's obviously a very direct reaction against that. And it's 0:14:25.820 --> 0:14:29.120 obviously a reaction against a feminism that Gen Z sees 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.460 as too serious and and stifling. So I think that 0:14:33.460 --> 0:14:35.950 part of it is interesting. And I mean, ultimately it's 0:14:35.950 --> 0:14:40.450 about owning elements of oneself that have traditionally been seen 0:14:40.450 --> 0:14:43.720 as troubling for women, like women who like to party, 0:14:43.750 --> 0:14:46.780 who are messy. So I guess it's good that you're like, 0:14:46.780 --> 0:14:49.720 that level is being reclaimed. But I mean, ultimately, I 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.050 do kind of wonder if brat is Manic Pixie for 0:14:53.050 --> 0:14:55.960 a 21st century. It's manic pixie with a bit of edge. Really. 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.739 I don't think anything's new. Um, so I'm cautious of 0:14:59.740 --> 0:15:03.040 it and interested. And I believe I can be a brat. 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.150 That's an interesting take. I, Thomas, loath as I am 0:15:07.150 --> 0:15:10.270 to ask you this question in particular, but, um, one 0:15:10.270 --> 0:15:12.490 one thing that stood out to me about that kind 0:15:12.490 --> 0:15:15.250 of Charli description of it, and it certainly seems to like, 0:15:15.250 --> 0:15:18.010 resonate with the way it's being deployed by people I 0:15:18.010 --> 0:15:20.620 know on social media. There's the kind of like, you know, 0:15:20.620 --> 0:15:22.590 just like, you know, we're girls and we're a bit wacky. 0:15:22.620 --> 0:15:24.300 We like to party. We're also a little bit dumb. 0:15:24.300 --> 0:15:27.840 That does seem to be a vibe at the moment. 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.210 And to Mel's point, it does also seem to be 0:15:30.210 --> 0:15:32.250 a bit of a reaction to this kind of broader 0:15:32.250 --> 0:15:35.520 idea of like, I don't want to get, I don't 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.770 want to get too ideological about this stuff, but like 0:15:37.770 --> 0:15:41.010 this mode of feminism that we seem to be in 0:15:41.010 --> 0:15:45.180 reflected through culture, of that kind of like girlboss work hard, 0:15:45.180 --> 0:15:47.270 you can make it all work. Get what you want. 0:15:47.270 --> 0:15:49.760 There's a there's a way out of like the trap 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.540 of kind of capitalism and the sociological factors that apply 0:15:53.540 --> 0:15:56.000 and everyone kind of realizing that that is all a 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.640 bit bullshit and like, what's the point of working our 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.200 way up to the top and playing by the rules? 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.180 It's all stupid. Anyway. Let's just have a bit of 0:16:02.180 --> 0:16:06.350 dumb fun. The kind of return of the tradwife thing. 0:16:06.350 --> 0:16:09.320 The explosion of Red scare, which is obviously referenced in 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.830 Charlie's album all seems to be part of this too. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.070 Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we're definitely living 0:16:16.070 --> 0:16:21.500 in a time when young people, capital P are feeling 0:16:21.500 --> 0:16:22.880 like a certain. 0:16:22.970 --> 0:16:24.110 Was it a capital P? 0:16:24.230 --> 0:16:27.229 I don't know. Capital. Capital P a feeling like a 0:16:27.230 --> 0:16:29.420 certain level of hopelessness. And I think that has manifested 0:16:29.420 --> 0:16:32.480 itself in this like for, you know, young millennial women, 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.380 it's kind of like the way you get ahead of like, 0:16:35.380 --> 0:16:38.740 the future that's been dictated to you anyway. And like, 0:16:38.740 --> 0:16:41.650 you know, I that makes so much sense to me. Like, 0:16:41.650 --> 0:16:44.260 it's it's a kind of grim outlook out there for 0:16:44.260 --> 0:16:47.230 so many people like, you know, both here and overseas and, 0:16:47.230 --> 0:16:49.300 and in all kind of aspects of life. And so 0:16:49.300 --> 0:16:51.490 like this makes sense that it's popping up again. Like 0:16:51.490 --> 0:16:53.860 I do agree, this is just a repetition of, you know, 0:16:53.860 --> 0:16:56.410 like stuff we've seen before, like, you know, like the 0:16:56.410 --> 0:16:58.240 whole hot mess thing that was like being in the 0:16:58.240 --> 0:16:58.990 kind of late, which was. 0:16:58.990 --> 0:17:01.300 Also a form of manic pixie, I think, like a development. 0:17:01.510 --> 0:17:03.820 Like I remember there's a whole Hot Mess episode of 0:17:03.820 --> 0:17:06.460 The Mindy Project with, like, you know, that character was 0:17:06.460 --> 0:17:09.760 completely brat. Uh, and same with Fleabag, even, like, she 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.379 was a hot mess, which is a brat, like, you know, 0:17:11.380 --> 0:17:13.180 it's all just an evolution of the same thing. But 0:17:13.180 --> 0:17:15.670 I think it's particularly like big right now. And I do, 0:17:15.700 --> 0:17:20.830 you know, as you know, I go on Instagram and like, 0:17:20.830 --> 0:17:23.670 see these trends. But like you do see lots of 0:17:23.670 --> 0:17:25.020 like I've got lots of my friends who are like 0:17:25.020 --> 0:17:27.990 super smart, successful women. And then they'll be posting stuff 0:17:27.990 --> 0:17:30.270 like kind of like tongue in cheek about like how 0:17:30.270 --> 0:17:32.010 messed up and like fucked up their lives are and 0:17:32.010 --> 0:17:35.520 like lol. And it's kind of like it's true. Like, 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.469 but they're just kind of getting ahead of the curve, 0:17:37.470 --> 0:17:40.980 I think, and kind of claiming it to own what's 0:17:40.980 --> 0:17:43.649 really going on. But like, they're not really those people. 0:17:43.650 --> 0:17:46.040 Yeah. It's not it's not cool right now to be 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.830 successful and to be playing by the rules. It's cooler 0:17:48.830 --> 0:17:51.830 to embrace a kind of nihilism or irony and just 0:17:51.830 --> 0:17:54.050 lean into that. Even if you know you work in 0:17:54.050 --> 0:17:56.210 finance 14 hours a day, that's not what you want 0:17:56.210 --> 0:17:58.250 to project. But then I also think, like there is 0:17:58.250 --> 0:18:01.280 a genuine sense of that nihilism that you're describing in 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.620 terms of just how a lot of people our generation 0:18:03.619 --> 0:18:05.929 and younger feel about where the world is going. 0:18:05.930 --> 0:18:07.760 Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think you 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:13.000 could also maybe read the the hedonism that is embodied in, 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.480 in the brat kind of idea, not just as nihilism, 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.890 but hedonism as reacting against expectations of women, all of them. 0:18:20.890 --> 0:18:22.750 So if you kind of take brat as its base 0:18:22.750 --> 0:18:24.790 level as that, then that is a positive thing. If 0:18:24.790 --> 0:18:27.340 it's about reacting against, you know, what's expected of you, 0:18:27.340 --> 0:18:30.790 traditional stereotypes, how society wants you to behave, then if 0:18:30.790 --> 0:18:32.860 that's the net level of it, then I guess that's 0:18:32.859 --> 0:18:35.859 a good thing. But, um, yeah, always wary of these things. 0:18:35.859 --> 0:18:36.340 But I do think. 0:18:36.340 --> 0:18:38.710 It is funny that like the split in, I would 0:18:38.710 --> 0:18:41.590 say like, you know, we're all in our like mid 0:18:41.590 --> 0:18:44.830 30s the I think like the people that I see 0:18:44.830 --> 0:18:47.139 around me like in my, you know, like echo chamber, 0:18:47.170 --> 0:18:49.990 the women especially who are like adopting it, it definitely 0:18:49.990 --> 0:18:52.300 is in more of like a like kind of performative 0:18:52.300 --> 0:18:54.160 like this is a funny trend. Like, I could I'm 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.410 happy to like jump on this for a bit. Whereas like, 0:18:56.410 --> 0:18:58.690 I think the I mean, the origins of the actual 0:18:58.690 --> 0:19:01.090 brat movement that, you know, perhaps Charlie was referring to 0:19:01.090 --> 0:19:04.480 and maybe like, you know, people, women in their kind 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.780 of like, early 20s are really talking about is a 0:19:07.780 --> 0:19:10.780 more genuine feeling of like, well, this is all pretty fucked, 0:19:10.780 --> 0:19:13.360 like whatever. Whereas I think, like the older you get, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.190 it's like you kind of you can clock the vibe 0:19:15.190 --> 0:19:16.629 and you can clock the trend and you're like, oh, 0:19:16.630 --> 0:19:18.910 this is quite a fun one for me to jump on. 0:19:18.910 --> 0:19:22.360 But like, also I have a, you know, $800,000 mortgage 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.220 and I get paid $200,000 a year. And like, I'm, 0:19:25.220 --> 0:19:26.810 you know, planning my second child and shit. 0:19:26.810 --> 0:19:29.270 Yeah. Like totally. If you're going to be kind of 0:19:29.270 --> 0:19:33.109 partying all the time and, um, not caring about things, 0:19:33.109 --> 0:19:35.270 the early 20s is the time to do that. 0:19:35.270 --> 0:19:36.230 Yeah, exactly. 0:19:36.590 --> 0:19:39.350 There is a visual element to this as well. It's 0:19:39.350 --> 0:19:42.260 defined by like the brat cover up, the lime green, 0:19:42.260 --> 0:19:46.780 that sort of simple font. And Charlie's aesthetic on this 0:19:46.780 --> 0:19:51.010 very like early 2000 club rat kind of energy. It 0:19:51.010 --> 0:19:53.200 is kind of everywhere. And to your point, I think 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.180 a lot of this is being passing this through what 0:19:55.180 --> 0:19:57.550 women I know are posting on Instagram. And it's just like, 0:19:57.550 --> 0:20:00.610 anytime there's anything green people on holiday, they're like, you know, 0:20:00.609 --> 0:20:04.300 I'm in Copenhagen right now. Brat. London. Uh, and that 0:20:04.300 --> 0:20:05.590 has been I mean, it's kind of fun. It's just 0:20:05.590 --> 0:20:09.700 nice that there's another universal ish meme that everyone kind 0:20:09.700 --> 0:20:13.300 of understands and has jumped on. Um, pretty harmless, pretty cool. 0:20:13.300 --> 0:20:17.710 But then it starts to bleed into politics. Everything fun 0:20:17.710 --> 0:20:21.010 and good and organic ultimately gets eaten up by big 0:20:21.010 --> 0:20:26.260 machines in some capacity. Uh, so Kamala Harris, uh, we 0:20:26.260 --> 0:20:29.080 didn't say this explicitly. She's, you know, the presumptive Democratic 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.470 nominee for the presidency. In case people haven't been following 0:20:32.470 --> 0:20:35.730 that stuff super closely, she has a tendency to say 0:20:35.730 --> 0:20:40.710 slightly odd things. You guys across the coconut tree thing? Yeah, yeah, 0:20:40.710 --> 0:20:42.090 it's really funny clip. 0:20:42.540 --> 0:20:44.970 My mother used to she would give us a hard 0:20:44.970 --> 0:20:47.430 time sometimes and she would say to us, I don't 0:20:47.430 --> 0:20:50.160 know what's wrong with you young people. You think you 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:55.290 just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in 0:20:55.290 --> 0:20:59.810 the context of all in which you live and what 0:20:59.810 --> 0:21:04.130 came before you. So all of this opponents of. 0:21:04.130 --> 0:21:06.739 Harris have made all these videos mashing up, you know, 0:21:06.740 --> 0:21:09.169 like slightly wacky things that she said and trying to 0:21:09.170 --> 0:21:13.040 expose her as this, you know, quote unquote mad woman. Uh, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.280 but then fans of Harris have like, kind of reclaimed 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:20.930 that and remixed those videos using tracks from brat, adding 0:21:20.930 --> 0:21:23.300 kind of like lime green colors to it and being like, 0:21:23.300 --> 0:21:25.399 Camila is Camila's brat, man, this is it. Just a 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:27.380 bit messy. She's a bit dumb. She's going for it. 0:21:27.380 --> 0:21:29.510 She's handed out, she's at the club. This is how 0:21:29.510 --> 0:21:30.199 it works. 0:21:30.650 --> 0:21:31.250 Um. 0:21:31.970 --> 0:21:35.510 A couple of days ago, Charli herself tweeted after, like, 0:21:35.510 --> 0:21:41.750 Camila became the presumptive nominee. Camilla is brat. Harry's team, uh, 0:21:41.750 --> 0:21:45.080 is using the brat font as their banner image on 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.520 social media. So they are like really like loving this alignment. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.630 And these two forces, this kind of like club energy 0:21:52.630 --> 0:22:00.100 from London to Washington DC have bizarrely merged together. Uh, and, 0:22:00.100 --> 0:22:01.870 you know, you could say that like, this is the 0:22:01.869 --> 0:22:04.210 peak of brat. You could argue that perhaps this is 0:22:04.210 --> 0:22:06.790 the beginning of the end of brat. In Australia, the 0:22:06.790 --> 0:22:10.390 Queensland Premier, Steven Miles, posted a TikTok where he was 0:22:10.390 --> 0:22:13.200 at the, uh, workshop where they were building new buses for. 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.870 For Brisbane there were lime green and he was like, nah, 0:22:15.900 --> 0:22:19.260 buses are so bright. I feel like when the Queensland 0:22:19.260 --> 0:22:21.810 Premier's posting stuff, it's like done and dusted. The camera 0:22:21.810 --> 0:22:24.180 thing I think is a little bit more interesting. I'm 0:22:24.180 --> 0:22:25.830 keen to talk to you guys about whether or not 0:22:25.830 --> 0:22:29.160 you think this is the beginning of the end of brat, 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:33.119 now that it's been so embraced by like, the Democratic machine? 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.840 Or is it brat evolving into another level of cultural dominance? 0:22:37.140 --> 0:22:39.960 I mean, I fear it's the beginning of the end. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.410 Like after they retweeted the brat thing, my father in law, 0:22:43.410 --> 0:22:45.840 who is and he won't mind me saying this, a 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:48.600 big Trump fan, he texted to the family group and 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.389 he was like, what is this? Like, what is brat? 0:22:51.390 --> 0:22:53.189 And then it's just a series of messages where he 0:22:53.190 --> 0:22:57.629 was like, also, I'm hearing that potentially Biden is dead. Um, 0:22:57.780 --> 0:23:00.619 that's a whole other podcast. But he's I mean, I 0:23:00.619 --> 0:23:02.090 don't know if you guys know, but Biden is dead. 0:23:02.090 --> 0:23:03.109 That's the hot tip. 0:23:03.109 --> 0:23:05.750 That's our that's our Patreon podcast. Find out. Yeah. 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.629 That one. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, when once 0:23:08.630 --> 0:23:13.399 brat awareness has hit, you know, the suburban 65 year 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.160 old dads in Australia, it's over. 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.680 Unfortunately, that's where memes go to die, man. 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.830 Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When he's screenshotting them off a Facebook 0:23:21.830 --> 0:23:24.159 screenshot and posting them into the WhatsApp thread, then the 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.050 meme is dead. But no. Yeah, I think I think, 0:23:26.050 --> 0:23:28.179 you know, like good on them for doing it. And 0:23:28.180 --> 0:23:31.360 also it was actually perfect for their campaign because like, 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:33.040 you know, she's coming in like kind of behind the 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:34.959 eight ball. This is of all the great I mean 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:37.119 to use another set of origin phrase of all the 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.050 great hospital passes, Biden has absolutely centering. And, you know, 0:23:41.050 --> 0:23:44.290 like Gordon Taylor is bearing down on her. But I 0:23:44.290 --> 0:23:45.790 feel like that gave her a bit of momentum like that. 0:23:45.790 --> 0:23:47.110 This has given her a bit of a like, you know, 0:23:47.109 --> 0:23:50.020 the campaign, a kickstart. There's like something to rally behind. Um, 0:23:50.020 --> 0:23:52.360 people are, you know, like think it's really funny, but 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.460 I just don't know if that if it's kind of 0:23:54.460 --> 0:23:56.230 the beginning of the end for brat Summer. 0:23:56.260 --> 0:23:58.240 Yeah. I reckon it's definitely the beginning of the end. 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.310 I would have thought, like, you know, these social media 0:24:00.310 --> 0:24:03.369 trends hit their peak and then come down the other side. 0:24:03.369 --> 0:24:05.080 So I would have seen that coming in the next 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.840 few months. I think this is probably hastened it. Um, 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.780 particularly because the people who were enjoying this trend were 0:24:10.780 --> 0:24:13.949 much younger, the people appropriating it are much older. So 0:24:13.950 --> 0:24:15.989 I think they will start to it will start to 0:24:15.990 --> 0:24:17.909 get used less. I think it will go through its 0:24:17.910 --> 0:24:20.820 period of being ironically used now, like it was genuinely used. 0:24:20.820 --> 0:24:23.700 Now we're in irony stage, and then we'll look back 0:24:23.700 --> 0:24:25.379 on this in a few years and be like, well, 0:24:25.380 --> 0:24:27.810 that was that brief lived brat summer. But I think 0:24:27.810 --> 0:24:30.660 the use of the politicians using it is interesting, because 0:24:30.660 --> 0:24:33.510 I do think it then, even though I think brat 0:24:33.510 --> 0:24:37.100 is political, it doesn't ostensibly seem to be. Whereas I 0:24:37.100 --> 0:24:40.220 think when politicians use it, it takes it into the dome, 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:42.800 it takes it into the domain of the political, which 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:47.120 then makes it less kind of universal. Um, and then, 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.600 you know, claiming to be brat or describing things as 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.750 brat then becomes a political action. So then it's less used. 0:24:53.750 --> 0:24:55.940 So yes, I think, um, I think it's the beginning 0:24:55.940 --> 0:24:58.820 of the end. But I'm glad you're wearing green today, Thomas. 0:24:58.820 --> 0:25:00.560 Yes, that's true actually. 0:25:00.590 --> 0:25:04.580 Who do you think, uh, benefits more from this alignment 0:25:04.580 --> 0:25:09.050 between Harris and Bratt? Like, you know, Thomas, you said 0:25:09.050 --> 0:25:11.120 it gives her this, like, boost, a bit of energy. 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:14.180 I agree with that. Generally speaking, I'd be like, the 0:25:14.180 --> 0:25:17.270 celebrity loses out, but Charlie is someone who's finally, like, 0:25:17.270 --> 0:25:20.000 really done well in the US market. After plugging away 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:21.950 for a while, I'd be interesting to watch the charts 0:25:21.950 --> 0:25:24.760 and be like, if this does enter the American kind 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:26.620 of conversation for a week or two, when a whole 0:25:26.619 --> 0:25:28.899 bunch of people who are like, oh, what's this about? 0:25:28.900 --> 0:25:31.750 Listen to her albums, potentially. This is a big boost 0:25:31.750 --> 0:25:34.629 for her as well. You know, in in swing states 0:25:34.630 --> 0:25:35.470 like Michigan. 0:25:35.470 --> 0:25:39.670 And yeah, I think that's probably true. And maybe they're 0:25:39.670 --> 0:25:42.310 trying to get the Barack Obama when he first went 0:25:42.310 --> 0:25:44.920 into office, had that whole kind of coolness behind him, 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.230 like he was a cool candidate. And so maybe they're 0:25:47.230 --> 0:25:50.130 trying to replicate that in this way as well. 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:51.930 I think the other part of this is that, like, 0:25:51.930 --> 0:25:55.350 even though there's a chance, uh, that Charlie gets some, 0:25:55.350 --> 0:25:57.990 you know, extra streams out of it, there's also a 0:25:57.990 --> 0:26:01.139 risk in, like, I wouldn't say that like Charlie or Brad, 0:26:01.170 --> 0:26:06.450 heads necessarily overlap neatly with, like, Democratic vice presidential candidates 0:26:06.450 --> 0:26:09.990 who used to be cops and prosecutors and, you know, have, 0:26:09.990 --> 0:26:12.510 you know, conservative foreign policy. So there's there's also like 0:26:12.510 --> 0:26:15.270 I've seen Charli XCX fans, this is the risk for 0:26:15.270 --> 0:26:18.570 celebs in this space be like, oh, this is so lame. Like, 0:26:18.570 --> 0:26:21.090 this is not what I want you to be using. Like, 0:26:21.090 --> 0:26:22.889 if you're if you're like a 24 year old girl 0:26:22.890 --> 0:26:25.859 and you've been pumping out brat content in between, like 0:26:25.859 --> 0:26:28.470 really hectic, radical political slides, and then all of a 0:26:28.470 --> 0:26:31.980 sudden charli's like Camila is brat, you'd be feeling pretty. 0:26:31.980 --> 0:26:33.209 Pissed off with the stock you. 0:26:33.210 --> 0:26:35.250 Bought a month or so ago, right? 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:38.550 Yeah. That's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of I mean, 0:26:38.550 --> 0:26:40.500 I like it's probably one of those things that we're 0:26:40.500 --> 0:26:43.800 obviously sitting here discussing it. She probably just like knowing 0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:46.320 Charlie as I do. Um, she probably just like, fucking 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:48.270 fired it off and was like, this is funny. 0:26:48.570 --> 0:26:50.340 This is funny. Totally. And now here's a bunch of 0:26:50.340 --> 0:26:51.540 people in their 30s debating it. 0:26:51.540 --> 0:26:54.090 Yeah, yeah. And me being like, I think what it is. No. 0:26:54.090 --> 0:26:57.330 But like, yeah, that's probably like the reality of what happened. Um, 0:26:57.510 --> 0:26:59.430 and now we just kind of like watch it all 0:26:59.430 --> 0:27:02.090 play out. But yeah, I would say just like slightly 0:27:02.090 --> 0:27:04.610 off topic, but I do think this whole thing has 0:27:04.609 --> 0:27:07.609 made me a little bit excited just for the general 0:27:07.609 --> 0:27:10.640 meme environment leading up to the election, because it has 0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:12.859 been amazing already. Not off topic. 0:27:12.859 --> 0:27:15.410 We have. We're veering into like Pod Save America territory 0:27:15.410 --> 0:27:17.360 for the next, you know, six months. This is what 0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:18.230 we're doing now. 0:27:18.230 --> 0:27:20.659 And one of my favorite ones, uh, was just as 0:27:20.660 --> 0:27:22.429 soon as this all happened. Have you seen the one, like, 0:27:22.430 --> 0:27:25.740 going around like the the headshot of Connor Roy, and 0:27:25.740 --> 0:27:28.680 it's like he's tanned. He's ready. I was like, man, amazing. 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:30.600 This was the guy we should have had leading. Um, like, 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:32.280 the internet is just going to do it. So this 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.690 has been obviously a very, you know, insane and turbulent, um, 0:27:36.690 --> 0:27:38.609 kind of like few months in the lead up to 0:27:38.609 --> 0:27:41.190 the election with everything that's going on, like between Biden 0:27:41.190 --> 0:27:42.810 pulling out and the assassination, and the internet is just 0:27:42.810 --> 0:27:44.070 like fucking doing what it does. 0:27:44.070 --> 0:27:45.630 Best, man. You said a few months, it's been like 0:27:45.630 --> 0:27:49.260 three weeks since Donald Trump was shot in the head, 0:27:49.260 --> 0:27:52.830 and Joe Biden's pulled out of the race. Crazy times. 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:55.350 Tenacious D with an unsuspecting victim of this. Like. 0:27:55.619 --> 0:27:58.170 How wild is it that the Trump news it's, like, 0:27:58.170 --> 0:27:59.969 certainly says something about the world we live in in 0:27:59.970 --> 0:28:04.500 the news cycle that Trump, our former president and presidential candidate, 0:28:04.500 --> 0:28:08.159 nearly being assassinated is just like not around on news 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:09.150 websites that much. 0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:09.570 Can I say. 0:28:09.570 --> 0:28:14.060 Something controversial and don't take this as an endorsement? But like, honestly, 0:28:14.060 --> 0:28:15.950 Trump is brat. Oh. 0:28:17.630 --> 0:28:19.490 He probably is a bit more brat than Kamala. 0:28:19.790 --> 0:28:20.359 He's been about. 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.850 His kind of weird manic energy and just like, you know, 0:28:22.850 --> 0:28:24.950 just he keeps, you know, we talk about the Hannibal 0:28:24.950 --> 0:28:27.470 Lecter thing he's talked about. He keeps bringing up Hannibal 0:28:27.470 --> 0:28:31.160 Lecter in speeches, and he keeps describing him as the late, 0:28:31.160 --> 0:28:34.880 great Hannibal Lecter. Like he thinks he's a real person 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.890 who is both good and dead when he is not real. Famously, 0:28:38.890 --> 0:28:41.470 not a good guy. Serial killer and a murderer. And 0:28:41.470 --> 0:28:44.230 in canon, not dead. It's one of the most perplexing 0:28:44.830 --> 0:28:47.470 cultural overlaps with politics I've seen. 0:28:47.500 --> 0:28:50.469 He also has, like the messy hair. Like, he's like 0:28:50.470 --> 0:28:52.360 a bit of a club rat. And he's just been 0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:55.060 at fabric or something, been doing for 24 hours, and he, like, 0:28:55.060 --> 0:28:56.290 wakes up and then he's a. 0:28:56.290 --> 0:28:58.390 Bit disheveled and makeup isn't right. Yeah. 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:00.580 Like, there would be some fucking brat parties at Mar 0:29:00.580 --> 0:29:01.270 a Lago. 0:29:01.510 --> 0:29:03.220 Oh, man, who's gonna write that piece? 0:29:03.250 --> 0:29:03.700 Yeah. 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:06.190 But I've said it. I've gone out on a limb. 0:29:06.190 --> 0:29:07.180 I'm going to get assassinated. 0:29:07.180 --> 0:29:09.820 I thought what you were going to say is that, like, 0:29:09.820 --> 0:29:12.550 at this point, I almost wondered, obviously, Trump, you know, 0:29:12.550 --> 0:29:16.120 assassination has was like very sad. We don't want that happening. And, 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.100 you know, it's it's kind of done wonders for his 0:29:18.100 --> 0:29:22.570 like resurgence is like if Biden was to pass away 0:29:22.570 --> 0:29:25.380 from Covid does that Trump a near assassination. Like where 0:29:25.380 --> 0:29:28.950 do we what's the what's like what is the hierarchy of? 0:29:29.190 --> 0:29:32.250 I think the sad thing is we're just fully talking 0:29:32.250 --> 0:29:36.030 about politics now. I think like the Biden thing is over, man. 0:29:36.030 --> 0:29:38.310 It's like it's Kamala now. And I think if Biden died, 0:29:38.310 --> 0:29:40.380 I don't people be like, that's sad. I think people 0:29:40.380 --> 0:29:42.180 would move on kind of quickly and just be like, 0:29:42.300 --> 0:29:42.870 you know. 0:29:43.110 --> 0:29:44.910 Had a good run. It's kind of like. 0:29:44.910 --> 0:29:47.340 When someone's grandparent dies, but they're really old and they've 0:29:47.340 --> 0:29:48.150 been really sick. 0:29:48.150 --> 0:29:49.610 Well, he wasn't taken too soon. 0:29:49.610 --> 0:29:50.690 Yeah. Yeah, it. 0:29:50.690 --> 0:29:53.420 Was like the average life expectancy in America is like 78. 0:29:53.420 --> 0:29:57.350 He's 82 or something. Like, it's kind of the most 0:29:57.350 --> 0:30:00.410 least surprising thing that could happen. Um, yeah. How do 0:30:00.410 --> 0:30:02.000 we eject from this conversation? 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:04.790 Um. 0:30:04.910 --> 0:30:05.420 All right. 0:30:05.420 --> 0:30:09.110 Let me allow me. Uh, yes. Well, look, it's all 0:30:09.110 --> 0:30:11.930 very crazy. Um, but allow me to blow you away 0:30:11.930 --> 0:30:14.900 with something crazier. Obviously, Trump is preparing for his second 0:30:14.900 --> 0:30:18.500 tilt as the Republican nominee in 2004. He was preparing 0:30:18.500 --> 0:30:21.860 for his very first season as host of The Apprentice. 0:30:22.010 --> 0:30:24.890 In some ways, the beginning of his kind of rise 0:30:24.890 --> 0:30:27.740 to power. That show kind of like blasted him into 0:30:27.740 --> 0:30:30.110 wider culture. And then he obviously found a career in politics. 0:30:30.110 --> 0:30:32.150 But you know what also happened in 2004? Osman. 0:30:35.210 --> 0:30:37.990 What was a big year for Premiere Television. It was 0:30:37.990 --> 0:30:41.830 when a show about four guys from New York who 0:30:41.830 --> 0:30:44.709 moved to LA to make it big first premiered. It's 0:30:44.710 --> 0:30:49.150 been 20 years since entourage was released. People say Sopranos 0:30:49.150 --> 0:30:53.260 changed television. Men? No, it was older men. Men were 0:30:53.260 --> 0:30:55.750 killing it on HBO in that year, like women had 0:30:55.750 --> 0:31:00.010 sex in the city. We had Sopranos, The Wire, entourage, like, 0:31:00.220 --> 0:31:02.970 Take me Back, man. No wonder people voting for Trump like, 0:31:02.970 --> 0:31:05.220 make fucking HBO great again. It's crazy. 0:31:05.220 --> 0:31:05.670 I know. 0:31:05.670 --> 0:31:07.830 It's why you guys keep calling it the golden age 0:31:07.830 --> 0:31:10.260 of television. I keep telling you, it wasn't. 0:31:10.770 --> 0:31:11.190 The. 0:31:11.190 --> 0:31:12.720 Golden balls of television. 0:31:13.260 --> 0:31:17.250 It was, and remains, I think, a pretty divisive show 0:31:17.250 --> 0:31:19.980 in terms of whether you're an entourage head or you 0:31:19.980 --> 0:31:21.959 really hate it. It has a lot of fans, and 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:24.840 I think both for the kind of fantasy elements of 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.350 just watching a bunch of rich guys have fun in L.A. uh, 0:31:28.350 --> 0:31:30.840 and also, you know, like it's a satire on Hollywood 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:33.930 and movies and the whole, you know, cult of celebrity 0:31:33.930 --> 0:31:36.660 in that kind of peak 2000 era as well, but 0:31:36.660 --> 0:31:40.410 has faced a lot of very fair criticism for the sexism, 0:31:40.410 --> 0:31:44.459 homophobia and racism that is imbued, I guess, in the 0:31:44.460 --> 0:31:47.370 DNA of the show itself. Uh, before we kind of 0:31:47.370 --> 0:31:50.030 unpack this show and talk about like, why it was 0:31:50.030 --> 0:31:53.420 such a phenomenon, its legacy, what worked, what didn't, why 0:31:53.420 --> 0:31:55.400 it is so divisive. I want to ask you guys 0:31:55.400 --> 0:32:00.830 about your relationship to it. Mel, first up, what is 0:32:00.830 --> 0:32:02.330 your history with entourage? 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:03.890 Well, I've been lucky. I've been able to go the 0:32:03.890 --> 0:32:08.090 last 20 years without watching it. Um, but I actually, 0:32:08.090 --> 0:32:09.530 I kind of think of it, you know, how in 0:32:09.530 --> 0:32:13.490 Barbie there's that really great montage where men are playing 0:32:13.510 --> 0:32:17.350 Matchbox 20 push, and they're talking about The Godfather. I 0:32:17.350 --> 0:32:20.590 would put entourage, like, you could have subbed entourage into 0:32:20.590 --> 0:32:23.260 that and it would have worked. But in saying that 0:32:23.260 --> 0:32:27.370 a lot of smart, sensible, sensitive men in my life 0:32:27.370 --> 0:32:31.780 have enjoyed entourage. And so for me that is interesting, um, 0:32:31.780 --> 0:32:35.950 and worth my consideration. So I have gone back in 0:32:35.950 --> 0:32:38.320 preparation for this pod, and I watched the first kind 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:41.740 of five episodes, and then I watched some scattered episodes 0:32:41.740 --> 0:32:44.110 that have had a lot of, um, a lot of 0:32:44.110 --> 0:32:47.860 discussion about them or a kind of pinch pinch hitter episodes. 0:32:47.860 --> 0:32:50.170 So obviously I feel like I'm not going to be 0:32:50.170 --> 0:32:53.800 able to fully understand and appreciate the character arcs that 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:57.670 these characters definitely don't go on. But, um, yeah, I'm 0:32:57.670 --> 0:33:00.010 excited to talk more about it, and maybe to bring 0:33:00.010 --> 0:33:02.520 a perspective of someone watching it for the first time 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.700 in this context versus I imagine you guys were hot 0:33:05.700 --> 0:33:08.430 into it when you were when you were in your youth. 0:33:08.460 --> 0:33:10.770 Thomas, what do you reckon? Were you hot into it 0:33:10.770 --> 0:33:13.140 in your youth? What's your what's your relationship with this show? 0:33:13.170 --> 0:33:17.820 Uh, I had all the entourage DVDs. Yeah. I mean, look, man, like, 0:33:18.180 --> 0:33:20.459 in the least surprising news of all time for anyone 0:33:20.460 --> 0:33:22.830 that listens to this podcast. I mean, you and I 0:33:22.830 --> 0:33:25.200 were both. We couldn't have been more bang in the demo. Really? Like, 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.490 it came out when I was like, what, 1415? Like, 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.459 you know, there was no there was no 15 year 0:33:31.460 --> 0:33:34.880 old version of me that escaped entourage. Um, and and 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:36.740 the same thing with all my friends, like, you know, 0:33:37.070 --> 0:33:38.870 it was almost like probably one of the like I 0:33:38.870 --> 0:33:42.080 loved Sopranos and stuff, but that was it felt like a, 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:44.239 you know, it's a different show for me. Like, I 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:46.040 loved it. I probably didn't fully understand it. Whereas entourage 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:50.480 was like there for me to really, like, take in. Um, yeah. 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:54.500 And it's funny, like, everyone's relationship, I think, with the 0:33:54.500 --> 0:33:57.050 show has changed a lot. Um, in, in the 20 0:33:57.050 --> 0:34:00.469 years since it premiered, especially because the show finished in 2011. 0:34:00.470 --> 0:34:03.320 But then the movie came out in 2015, and the movie, 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:05.990 I think, was a good way for lots of people 0:34:05.990 --> 0:34:07.489 who grew up with the show, like me and you 0:34:07.490 --> 0:34:11.509 probably Osmond, to like to realize that this show had like, 0:34:11.510 --> 0:34:15.520 was a little bit crazy and probably had some big 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:17.200 problems because it kind of the movie like. 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:18.850 Passed its expiry date by then. 0:34:18.850 --> 0:34:21.490 Exactly. Yeah. And then we kind of cut forward another 0:34:21.489 --> 0:34:24.070 ten years to now and it's 20 years. And you know, 0:34:24.070 --> 0:34:26.590 like obviously the legacy is a funny thing. These anniversaries 0:34:26.590 --> 0:34:28.540 like you're forced to like reflect on what did the 0:34:28.540 --> 0:34:32.290 show mean and stuff. But like yeah, I find myself 0:34:32.290 --> 0:34:35.259 in conversations like not wanting to defend entourage because I'm 0:34:35.260 --> 0:34:37.750 fully aware of like all of its downfalls. But I 0:34:37.750 --> 0:34:39.900 do think there are certain parts of it that have 0:34:39.900 --> 0:34:43.410 become like it was. 2004 was a fucking weird time. 0:34:43.410 --> 0:34:45.900 It was a it was a dumb show written by 0:34:45.900 --> 0:34:48.180 a guy who was basically writing about his life experience. Like, 0:34:48.180 --> 0:34:50.220 what did we expect it to be? 0:35:00.390 --> 0:35:04.129 My experience is is pretty similar to to yours. I 0:35:04.130 --> 0:35:06.440 think the only thing I'd add is that every time 0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:08.240 I do a rewatch and I do one every couple 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:10.370 of years, I did one last year. I'm sort of 0:35:10.370 --> 0:35:14.150 surprised by like, and maybe because my memories and expectations 0:35:14.150 --> 0:35:16.640 of its politics and stuff are so low, I'm kind 0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:20.060 of surprised by the quality of the writing and, and 0:35:20.060 --> 0:35:24.230 some of the acting and some of the storylines and. Yeah, look, look, 0:35:24.230 --> 0:35:25.730 I think a lot of people, you know, a lot 0:35:25.730 --> 0:35:27.620 of people talk about the misogyny inherent in the show 0:35:27.620 --> 0:35:29.420 and it's like fair to say that there are very 0:35:29.420 --> 0:35:33.169 few women characters who have anything in the show other 0:35:33.170 --> 0:35:35.120 than just like they're hot models that the guys want 0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:37.400 to have sex with. They're like, obviously a few women 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:39.200 characters that are a bit more fleshed, a bit more interesting, 0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:41.630 but there's so many episodes where like that stuff actually 0:35:41.630 --> 0:35:43.880 is not really part of the show. I think a 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:45.710 lot of people haven't seen the show, think it's like 0:35:45.710 --> 0:35:49.040 every episode it's like which smoking hot perfect ten model 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:51.430 Will Vince and the gang hang out with? And that 0:35:51.430 --> 0:35:53.380 does happen. I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't 0:35:53.380 --> 0:35:55.660 an element of that there, but a lot of it 0:35:55.660 --> 0:35:59.080 is like an increasingly, especially the first half of the show, 0:35:59.110 --> 0:36:01.990 the first four seasons and seasons two, three, four, where 0:36:01.989 --> 0:36:05.020 it's about, you know, Vince trying to get in median 0:36:05.020 --> 0:36:07.239 and these stories about Hollywood or whatever the the kind 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:09.910 of sexism of the show fades a little bit into 0:36:09.910 --> 0:36:11.890 the background and you're like, oh, there's a reason why 0:36:11.890 --> 0:36:15.960 this show was interesting, compelling. It wasn't just softcore pornography. 0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:18.960 I think the bits that really stand out to me 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:22.770 are like the, the homophobia and and racism particularly directed 0:36:22.770 --> 0:36:25.770 from Ari Gold to his assistant, Lloyd. I mean, Ari 0:36:25.770 --> 0:36:28.140 Gold is one of the funniest characters. He's also a 0:36:28.140 --> 0:36:32.100 bad person. So he says this stuff. It's not necessarily 0:36:32.100 --> 0:36:36.930 the show endorsing homophobia and racism, but he's never really 0:36:36.930 --> 0:36:40.359 subject to backlash for it, you know? And then it 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:42.580 does happen a bit. And you do get these these 0:36:42.580 --> 0:36:44.800 moments where he's challenged, but it always comes back to, like, 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:47.050 Lloyd ultimately loves him, even though he is one of 0:36:47.050 --> 0:36:48.850 the worst people to him in the world. So that 0:36:48.850 --> 0:36:52.510 is my attempt to try to like put not not 0:36:52.510 --> 0:36:54.820 not defend the politics of the show, but to say 0:36:54.820 --> 0:36:57.310 that there are there's a lot of it that goes 0:36:57.310 --> 0:37:00.430 beyond those kinds of issues and makes it something interesting 0:37:00.430 --> 0:37:03.040 to still watch now and interesting to still talk about now. 0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:05.570 Yeah, I agree. And I think like, yeah, it's very 0:37:05.570 --> 0:37:08.600 easy to be like it was a silly show. It 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:10.610 was the kind of Emily in Paris of its day. 0:37:10.610 --> 0:37:13.790 It was something you could watch and just take on 0:37:13.790 --> 0:37:16.100 surface level. Like it's very easy to say that. But 0:37:16.100 --> 0:37:20.330 the thing is, that show was so immensely popular and so, um, 0:37:20.330 --> 0:37:23.839 had such wide reach that it is worthy to consider 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:27.290 what the fantasy was that people were so interested in. Like, 0:37:27.290 --> 0:37:29.589 I'm not saying. And in this discussion, like, I don't 0:37:29.590 --> 0:37:32.529 think the show is pretending to be anything other than 0:37:32.530 --> 0:37:36.040 what it is. But I think the discussion point is, 0:37:36.040 --> 0:37:39.129 why did so many people connect with that idea? And 0:37:39.130 --> 0:37:41.590 what does that say about us collectively? 0:37:41.590 --> 0:37:43.600 Definitely. It's a really good point. I mean, like very quickly, 0:37:43.600 --> 0:37:45.940 for anyone who's totally unfamiliar with it's like loosely based 0:37:45.940 --> 0:37:49.600 on Mark Wahlberg's real life, his crew moving to LA 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:52.750 when he was in the 90s, navigating Hollywood, working their 0:37:52.750 --> 0:37:55.060 way up run ins him and his crew have with 0:37:55.060 --> 0:37:58.660 studio execs, with other celebrities, with other actors. Every episode 0:37:58.660 --> 0:38:01.360 is kind of standalone. There are some season wide arcs about, 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:03.310 you know, movies and things that they're trying to get into. 0:38:03.310 --> 0:38:06.940 A lot of celebrities make cameos. James Cameron famously like, 0:38:06.940 --> 0:38:10.780 is trying to make a, uh, superhero movie called Aquaman 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.360 at a time when everyone was like, are superhero movies 0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:15.609 good luck man. And now they're so dominant. There's even 0:38:15.610 --> 0:38:18.899 like a movie called Ferrari that's in the film. There's 0:38:18.900 --> 0:38:22.920 a Gatsby film. All these movies happen before their equivalents 0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:25.230 in real life. And honestly, for me, when I was 0:38:25.230 --> 0:38:27.810 thinking about this conversation, I was like, did I really 0:38:27.810 --> 0:38:31.530 fall in love with, like, cinema and Hollywood and the 0:38:31.530 --> 0:38:34.140 art of like, you know, making these things and caring 0:38:34.140 --> 0:38:37.230 about producers and studios through entourage. And I reckon I 0:38:37.230 --> 0:38:39.210 probably did. I reckon I learnt a lot of the 0:38:39.210 --> 0:38:41.780 language and the stories and the details of this stuff. 0:38:41.780 --> 0:38:44.719 Watching the show, that made it seem really interesting and 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:47.450 dynamic and weird and actually wanting to learn more about it. 0:38:47.450 --> 0:38:49.490 I don't know if either of you guys can can 0:38:49.489 --> 0:38:50.330 relate to that. 0:38:50.330 --> 0:38:53.060 Yeah, I that for me that is by far the 0:38:53.060 --> 0:38:56.000 best part of the show is the Hollywood element of it, 0:38:56.000 --> 0:38:58.580 and it's the insider stuff. One of the episodes I watched, 0:38:58.730 --> 0:39:01.670 which was really good, was everyone stressing about whether the 0:39:01.670 --> 0:39:04.320 film would have a bigger opening day than was it Spider-Man, 0:39:04.320 --> 0:39:07.049 I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was all 0:39:07.050 --> 0:39:08.880 of that stuff. It was the role of the agents, 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.450 the film choices, the pressure from producers, the the publicists, 0:39:12.450 --> 0:39:15.330 the kind of mechanics of the industry that I found 0:39:15.330 --> 0:39:18.090 most interesting and was by far the best part of 0:39:18.090 --> 0:39:19.469 the show and the part that I think has stood 0:39:19.469 --> 0:39:21.450 the test of time, only because a lot of it 0:39:21.450 --> 0:39:24.270 is strangely prescient of films that did get made of 0:39:24.270 --> 0:39:26.339 things that have happened in the industry. 0:39:26.340 --> 0:39:29.360 Yeah, I think like, I mean, I think keeping in 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.090 mind this is 2004, like before we fully were like 0:39:32.090 --> 0:39:35.420 in the stranglehold of reality TV. And like Doug Ellin, 0:39:35.420 --> 0:39:37.880 the creator, tells this story so regularly about how, like 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:40.070 so many people, when the show started, thought it was 0:39:40.070 --> 0:39:42.290 a there were real people like thought it was a 0:39:42.590 --> 0:39:45.170 I thought he was like, this was a documentary. Um, 0:39:45.170 --> 0:39:48.500 because like, you know, we have a genuine appetite for 0:39:48.500 --> 0:39:51.170 that stuff now more than ever. Like, you know, if entourage, 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:53.370 if entourage was to be made in 2024, it would 0:39:53.370 --> 0:39:56.070 probably just be a fly on the wall following. Like, 0:39:56.070 --> 0:39:58.650 I don't know, Timothée Chalamet as he visits a bunch 0:39:58.650 --> 0:40:02.250 of boulangeries or whatever, but like, I think that's how. 0:40:02.250 --> 0:40:03.089 Far we've come. 0:40:03.090 --> 0:40:05.550 Yeah, yeah, I think it would be so boring. I'd 0:40:05.550 --> 0:40:07.740 much rather watch the Vincent Chase one. Um, but like, 0:40:07.739 --> 0:40:11.400 I think, you know, the voyeuristic element was a huge 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:13.890 part of what made it so good. You know, people 0:40:13.890 --> 0:40:17.700 love to peek behind the curtain of anything but especially Hollywood, this, 0:40:17.700 --> 0:40:20.430 you know, huge system that we're all like, you know, 0:40:20.430 --> 0:40:22.830 know so much about. And, you know, we watch the 0:40:22.830 --> 0:40:24.600 movies and stuff. But to figure out, like, what does 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:26.850 a movie star do, like on a Tuesday afternoon like 0:40:26.850 --> 0:40:29.850 that shit is interesting. And that's why I do think, like, 0:40:29.850 --> 0:40:33.120 you know, the the kind of revisionist history of entourage 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:35.670 and the very, like, fair criticisms of it, you know, the, 0:40:35.670 --> 0:40:37.830 the fact that it does have like all it's like, 0:40:37.830 --> 0:40:40.880 you know, there's lots of misogyny. It is really racist. Like, 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.510 but the, the criticism that has become so loud that 0:40:44.510 --> 0:40:46.580 it's like reduced the rest of the show to like, oh, 0:40:46.580 --> 0:40:48.470 it didn't really offer anything. Whereas like, I don't think 0:40:48.469 --> 0:40:49.279 that is true. 0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:53.150 Yeah. And I think really smart in terms of that reality. Uh, 0:40:53.150 --> 0:40:56.299 like what's real, what's drama. The show leaned into that 0:40:56.300 --> 0:40:59.330 like it had real actors like Mandy Moore play fictionalized 0:40:59.330 --> 0:41:02.089 versions of themselves. And so you really felt like you 0:41:02.090 --> 0:41:04.689 were getting a peek into how it works. Fuck knows 0:41:04.690 --> 0:41:07.210 if that's actually the case. I mean, in that vein, also, 0:41:07.210 --> 0:41:10.569 there was a character who was a very wealthy and 0:41:10.570 --> 0:41:14.230 powerful film producer who went to Sundance and threatened people 0:41:14.230 --> 0:41:16.570 a lot and was very aggressive and quite large, and 0:41:16.570 --> 0:41:19.989 his name was Harvey Weingard in the show, and it 0:41:19.989 --> 0:41:22.870 was obviously a reference to Harvey Weinstein. It was one 0:41:22.870 --> 0:41:26.320 of the first pop culture kind of statements that this 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:30.280 guy exists and he's a monster Decade before the kind 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:34.089 of revelations in the in the Times and the MeToo movement. 0:41:34.090 --> 0:41:36.219 So the show was very knowing about a lot of 0:41:36.219 --> 0:41:38.799 this stuff. On the kind of the other side. A 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:40.870 lot of the reasons why I like the show was 0:41:40.870 --> 0:41:44.350 great party scenes, great soundtrack, a lot of stuff about 0:41:44.350 --> 0:41:46.450 dudes just like hanging out. And I think when you're 0:41:46.450 --> 0:41:49.900 a teenager, you're like, is this what being a man is? 0:41:49.930 --> 0:41:51.340 And I think this is this is one of the 0:41:51.340 --> 0:41:53.820 bits of the show that I can't really reconcile. And 0:41:53.820 --> 0:41:55.950 it's not really the show's fault that a bunch of 0:41:55.950 --> 0:41:59.910 people our age, Thomas More teenagers, watched it and were like, well, 0:41:59.910 --> 0:42:04.319 you know, this this feels more, uh, aspirational, aspirational to 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:07.980 me than like, The Wire, The Sopranos. Um, my dream 0:42:07.980 --> 0:42:09.600 is to just get enough money and, like, smoke weed 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:12.300 with my friends, go to basketball games, get front row, 0:42:12.330 --> 0:42:15.000 you know, seats and just hang out that that was 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:17.480 what I thought peak being a dude was. 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:19.610 Yeah. And this is I was saying this the other day, like, 0:42:19.610 --> 0:42:23.299 I think everyone or dudes watch that show and thought 0:42:23.300 --> 0:42:25.190 they wanted to be Vince when all of them were 0:42:25.190 --> 0:42:28.400 being turtle at the time, like, that's who they were. 0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:31.489 And Vince was aspirational. I mean, I don't you're kind 0:42:31.489 --> 0:42:35.989 of very gracefully sidestepping the element of how these men 0:42:35.989 --> 0:42:40.670 treat women as being also kind of potentially aspirational. You know, 0:42:40.670 --> 0:42:45.010 the show presenting that as that's what men are like. Um, 0:42:45.010 --> 0:42:47.410 I mean, I think that argument and you do see 0:42:47.410 --> 0:42:49.299 it a lot in defense of this, that the show 0:42:49.300 --> 0:42:54.879 is about male friendship is like wrong and kind of silly. Like, 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:57.640 I think that's a silly argument or like it's an 0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:00.640 argument that doesn't take into account what that male friendship 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:02.529 is like. It's about I was thinking of, you know, 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.140 Leo's pussy posse. Like, we'd never say that. That was 0:43:05.140 --> 0:43:09.009 male friendship. Like, that's if you really think about what 0:43:09.010 --> 0:43:13.210 bonds these men. It's money, power and women. That's their currency. 0:43:13.210 --> 0:43:15.520 That's what the friendship and the status in the group 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:18.790 is based on. That is the codified behavior that creates 0:43:18.790 --> 0:43:19.390 their friendship. 0:43:19.390 --> 0:43:19.960 Power, baby. 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:20.590 Yeah. What's the issue? 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.510 That's it. Like. And yeah, you can have issues about that. 0:43:22.510 --> 0:43:23.890 But I don't know, like if you can make the 0:43:23.890 --> 0:43:26.500 case that the show says anything deeper about friendship other 0:43:26.500 --> 0:43:28.240 than what I've just said, that in that. 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:30.089 No, look, I agree with you. I don't think it 0:43:30.090 --> 0:43:31.650 actually does. And even when I was writing my notes 0:43:31.650 --> 0:43:33.270 on this, I was like, oh, it's about friendship. And 0:43:33.270 --> 0:43:35.160 I thought about it and I'm like, what does that 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:37.590 have to say about it? But here's the thing, right? 0:43:37.590 --> 0:43:40.739 I'm keen on your thoughts on this, Thomas. You're right, Mel, 0:43:40.739 --> 0:43:43.680 that it doesn't go beyond that. But what there weren't 0:43:43.680 --> 0:43:46.980 really a lot of shows that just portrayed what it 0:43:46.980 --> 0:43:49.950 means to be a guy. Like, you're having issues with 0:43:49.950 --> 0:43:51.840 your girlfriend and you talk to your friends about it, 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:53.480 you're having issues with your job, and you talk to 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:56.330 your friends about it. They didn't talk about it particularly well. 0:43:56.360 --> 0:43:59.990 It wasn't like deep insight into the nature of, like 0:43:59.989 --> 0:44:03.950 how to navigate relationships and your career. Really. Like not 0:44:03.950 --> 0:44:06.020 a lot of TV shows were like men were talking 0:44:06.020 --> 0:44:08.870 about stuff in the mid 2000. I was just trying 0:44:08.870 --> 0:44:11.660 to say it's more more relatable and accurate issues than 0:44:11.660 --> 0:44:15.590 like Tony Soprano talking to Uncle June about the Rico act, 0:44:15.590 --> 0:44:16.040 you know? 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:21.870 Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of I kind of agree. 0:44:21.870 --> 0:44:23.760 I mean, like, I don't I think it, you know, 0:44:24.150 --> 0:44:26.400 of course that was how it was framed as a 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:28.170 show about male friendship. And I do think, like a 0:44:28.170 --> 0:44:30.239 lot of the people around the show have done a 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.060 lot of, like, hard work in the, you know, time 0:44:33.060 --> 0:44:35.190 since it finished and they've kind of been reading the 0:44:35.190 --> 0:44:36.960 room on what people think of the show and they've been, 0:44:36.960 --> 0:44:38.310 you know, trying to be like, no, it was always 0:44:38.310 --> 0:44:40.620 about male friendship. Like, I appreciate all that. I do 0:44:40.620 --> 0:44:43.060 think that, like, I kind of agree, like, you know, 0:44:43.180 --> 0:44:46.330 not to play a game of comparisons, but like sex 0:44:46.330 --> 0:44:48.129 and the city is the obvious comparison in that it was. 0:44:48.130 --> 0:44:52.360 So it finished right before entourage started, I think. And 0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:54.460 that's obviously, you know, often entourage was called like the 0:44:54.460 --> 0:44:57.220 male version of sex and the city. But like, you know, 0:44:57.580 --> 0:45:00.970 there that version of friendship, like, Carrie is famously the 0:45:00.969 --> 0:45:04.150 worst friend in the world. Like, I think there are. 0:45:04.150 --> 0:45:05.760 I mean, you know, you've only seen a few episodes, 0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:09.000 but there is a lot in this show that like 0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:11.969 that bonds them. Aside from like getting fucked up and 0:45:11.969 --> 0:45:14.640 having sex and stuff like you have like, you know, 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:18.240 Johnny constantly kind of being the the fact that he's 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:20.130 just like the punch line for him is that he 0:45:20.130 --> 0:45:23.460 can't quite achieve anything, but like, they really, like deal 0:45:23.460 --> 0:45:25.859 with shit like that. Like, I do think that the 0:45:25.860 --> 0:45:28.830 standard may be low for like TV shows exploring or 0:45:28.830 --> 0:45:31.860 really like interrogating male friendship? I think this show tried 0:45:31.860 --> 0:45:32.459 to do it. 0:45:32.460 --> 0:45:33.540 Nah, I don't think so. 0:45:33.780 --> 0:45:34.560 No, I think so. 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:36.750 I mean like is it is is is Carrie telling 0:45:36.750 --> 0:45:39.390 her friends she would never have sex with the bisexual man? 0:45:39.390 --> 0:45:43.170 You know better or worse than EA helping Vin navigate 0:45:43.170 --> 0:45:44.790 like a professional crisis. 0:45:44.790 --> 0:45:45.330 I think it's the. 0:45:45.330 --> 0:45:47.940 Level of engagement. Like, I guess there are two things. Like, 0:45:47.940 --> 0:45:50.070 if we're talking about what this show says about friendships, 0:45:50.070 --> 0:45:53.069 obviously the friendships in sex and the city are more 0:45:53.070 --> 0:45:56.720 intensely examined, like those dynamics are way more complicated. And 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.870 when they're talking about sex, it's brought to the table 0:45:59.870 --> 0:46:02.360 for discussion. Whereas I think in this show, it's like 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:05.630 the throwaway line of virgins are too much responsibility. Or 0:46:05.630 --> 0:46:07.550 have you ever fucked a girl on it, period. Like, 0:46:07.550 --> 0:46:11.060 that's not a kind of interesting or developed discussion. And 0:46:11.060 --> 0:46:14.779 it doesn't have to be. And they're there questions. But like, 0:46:14.780 --> 0:46:17.390 I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't it's 0:46:17.390 --> 0:46:23.330 not attempting to be men seriously unpacking relations with women. 0:46:23.330 --> 0:46:25.279 It's not intending to be that. And I don't think 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:27.649 it does do that. Um, so yeah, I don't really 0:46:27.650 --> 0:46:31.550 buy the argument that it's like an insightful way of discussing. 0:46:31.550 --> 0:46:33.740 No, I think we're actually probably more in agreement on 0:46:33.739 --> 0:46:35.660 this one than in disagreement, because I also don't think 0:46:35.660 --> 0:46:38.060 it is like, you know, the holy grail of like, 0:46:38.060 --> 0:46:40.190 good conversation. I'm just trying to say that there was 0:46:40.190 --> 0:46:43.520 so few of those things happening in television that it 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:45.590 actually is a bit like, oh, wow, men are talking 0:46:45.590 --> 0:46:48.290 about like any like, the bar is so low here 0:46:48.290 --> 0:46:51.109 that just men talking about anything to do with their lives, 0:46:51.110 --> 0:46:55.130 their families, sex existed. And I'm like, I'm not trying 0:46:55.130 --> 0:46:58.610 to say that like, men are underrepresented or were underrepresented 0:46:58.610 --> 0:47:02.149 in television, but it is kind of stark to think 0:47:02.150 --> 0:47:07.469 that what other dramas that existed before entourage of groups 0:47:07.469 --> 0:47:12.600 of men existing together and talking about things that aren't teenage, like, 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.960 you know, Nano 2.0 or the OC, that sort of 0:47:15.960 --> 0:47:18.600 stuff that was very like in high school stuff for 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:21.660 people in that kind of like 20s. I don't know 0:47:21.660 --> 0:47:24.270 what that show was. And certainly by the time Thomas 0:47:24.270 --> 0:47:26.100 and I were teenagers, I don't know what that show 0:47:26.130 --> 0:47:27.030 was that was on. 0:47:27.030 --> 0:47:28.950 Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, sex and 0:47:28.950 --> 0:47:31.549 the city made an impact in the same way, in 0:47:31.550 --> 0:47:34.489 the sense that it was an avenue to show women 0:47:34.489 --> 0:47:37.100 on TV talking about their issues. I mean, I do. 0:47:37.100 --> 0:47:39.080 I know you keep saying you couldn't relate to Sopranos, 0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.870 but I do think that Mr. Soprano is a far 0:47:41.870 --> 0:47:46.730 more relatable male than anyone in this show. No respect. 0:47:46.730 --> 0:47:50.030 Like he struggles with his role in the family. 0:47:50.030 --> 0:47:51.980 And the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah, 0:47:51.980 --> 0:47:53.540 I fucking get this shit. But like. 0:47:53.690 --> 0:47:56.900 It's a far more relatable presentation of what it is 0:47:56.900 --> 0:47:59.299 to be human. This is fantasy and that's fine. Like, 0:47:59.300 --> 0:48:01.460 I think we just need to be like, it is fantasy. 0:48:01.460 --> 0:48:05.450 It is a projection. It is. It's the cinema of desire. 0:48:05.450 --> 0:48:07.969 If we want to get Freudian on it like it's just. 0:48:07.969 --> 0:48:10.370 Fantasy, it is fantasy. But the dynamic between those four 0:48:10.370 --> 0:48:14.359 guys like for better or worse, definitely like because essentially 0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:16.190 they're like, they've all got like Arrested Development, they're basically 0:48:16.190 --> 0:48:17.720 high schoolers. The dynamic between to. 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:20.620 Tell you, Mel, when four guys get together, that's what they. 0:48:20.620 --> 0:48:20.920 Talk about. 0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:23.620 It's very similar to how like people interact, like in 0:48:23.620 --> 0:48:25.089 high school, like how and like, you know, there's always 0:48:25.090 --> 0:48:27.040 someone trying to be the big dog. Everyone's taking the 0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:29.500 piss out of each other like that. That's not like like, 0:48:29.710 --> 0:48:31.510 I'm sorry to say, my group of friends was a 0:48:31.510 --> 0:48:34.569 lot more like that than, like, fucking Sal and Tony 0:48:34.570 --> 0:48:36.760 and Christopher sitting at fucking Satriale's. 0:48:36.910 --> 0:48:38.049 Though you did eat a lot of ham. 0:48:38.170 --> 0:48:38.710 Yeah. I mean. 0:48:38.710 --> 0:48:40.150 Yeah, we had the cured meats, but that was where 0:48:40.150 --> 0:48:40.660 I stopped. 0:48:41.469 --> 0:48:45.240 There's a problem with, um, problem with modern society is that, uh, 0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:47.430 a lot of women of a certain age grow up 0:48:47.430 --> 0:48:49.500 watching sex in the city and thought that's what they 0:48:49.500 --> 0:48:52.260 should emulate. A lot of men grew up watching entourage. 0:48:52.440 --> 0:48:55.230 That's what they should emulate. Everyone in politics and media 0:48:55.230 --> 0:48:57.090 watched The fucking West Wing and thought that's what they 0:48:57.090 --> 0:49:00.450 should emulate. We're all kind of like breaking the world 0:49:00.450 --> 0:49:03.570 because we were raised by kind of weird and kind 0:49:03.570 --> 0:49:05.250 of fucked up HBO shows. 0:49:05.250 --> 0:49:08.190 Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's probably true. And that's 0:49:08.190 --> 0:49:11.340 why I always think that, like, it's good to discuss 0:49:11.340 --> 0:49:13.379 these shows and their meaning, even if it's not like 0:49:13.380 --> 0:49:15.480 what the show is intending to do and like. It's 0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:17.760 not about the expectation of the show, but it did 0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:19.800 influence so many people. And the type of men and 0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:22.290 women we have today are a result of pop culture, 0:49:22.290 --> 0:49:23.760 and it's why culture is so important. Yeah, that's. 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:25.529 Why it's so interesting, because we can all acknowledge the 0:49:25.530 --> 0:49:27.870 limits as to how good or bad it was. But 0:49:27.870 --> 0:49:31.880 the reality was it did influence human beings in terms 0:49:31.880 --> 0:49:34.610 of their thinking and approach to stuff. Thomas, you spoke 0:49:34.610 --> 0:49:38.090 to Doug Ellin, the creator of the show. What did 0:49:38.090 --> 0:49:41.359 you learn from him about entourage during the time and 0:49:41.360 --> 0:49:42.170 its legacy? 0:49:42.680 --> 0:49:47.660 Um, I think he has a complicated relationship with the legacy. Uh, he, 0:49:48.110 --> 0:49:52.100 you know, especially like, you know, the 20th anniversary was 0:49:52.100 --> 0:49:55.420 just last week. Um, HBO, like, maybe put up a 0:49:55.420 --> 0:50:00.009 single Instagram post, um, to celebrate it. And, you know, like, 0:50:00.010 --> 0:50:02.980 it's fair to say that had this been the 20th 0:50:02.980 --> 0:50:05.950 anniversary of sex and the city, it would have been 0:50:05.950 --> 0:50:09.250 a much bigger deal. Um, so he is very much, 0:50:09.250 --> 0:50:11.350 I would say, like a bit defensive about what's happened 0:50:11.350 --> 0:50:14.109 to the show. Um, especially like his relationship with HBO 0:50:14.110 --> 0:50:17.260 has disintegrated a lot, and he thinks they basically have 0:50:17.260 --> 0:50:20.610 tried to distance themselves. Um, and I do think, you know, 0:50:20.730 --> 0:50:22.830 in some ways I try to understand where he was 0:50:22.830 --> 0:50:24.840 coming from. Like, I think he really is just like 0:50:24.840 --> 0:50:28.920 it was 2004, you know, like, this was what I knew. I, 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:30.810 you know, this was my life. I spoke to Mark Wahlberg. 0:50:30.810 --> 0:50:33.419 We wrote a fun show like that was it. And 0:50:33.420 --> 0:50:35.759 now he's like, kind of frantically trying to figure out 0:50:35.760 --> 0:50:39.120 what's happened to his show. And, you know, like, not 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:41.160 that we need to feel bad for Doug Ellin. At 0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:43.589 the same time, he is doing a lot of like, 0:50:43.590 --> 0:50:45.540 you know, overtime trying to be like, nah, it was 0:50:45.540 --> 0:50:48.270 all 100%. All of it was satire. 0:50:48.270 --> 0:50:49.170 Yeah. And it's like. 0:50:49.170 --> 0:50:49.830 You know, look, man. 0:50:49.830 --> 0:50:52.350 I it was a comment on how like, Ari was 0:50:52.350 --> 0:50:53.489 a racist or whatever. 0:50:53.489 --> 0:50:55.470 Yes. And I was like, look, man, I love the show, 0:50:55.500 --> 0:50:57.089 you know, at the time and stuff. And I still 0:50:57.090 --> 0:50:59.969 enjoy watching it, but like, you know, all of them 0:50:59.969 --> 0:51:01.529 fucking all these girls all the time is not like a, 0:51:01.530 --> 0:51:03.870 you know, biting satire on, you know, the power of 0:51:03.870 --> 0:51:06.000 fame and being a famous actor. Like, sometimes you were 0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:07.850 just doing it because it was like fun shit to 0:51:07.850 --> 0:51:09.739 film and you knew that your audience would absolutely lap 0:51:09.739 --> 0:51:10.069 it up. 0:51:10.100 --> 0:51:12.890 Yeah. And I kind of get his like, I get. 0:51:12.890 --> 0:51:16.759 I imagine no creator ever wants to make something that 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:19.700 is so dated. And not only a career not only 0:51:19.700 --> 0:51:22.729 makes something that is so of its time, but is 0:51:22.730 --> 0:51:28.100 so now retrospectively often shorthand for like a red flag. Um, yeah. 0:51:28.100 --> 0:51:29.870 So I kind of get why he is on the 0:51:29.870 --> 0:51:30.710 defensive about it. 0:51:30.739 --> 0:51:30.890 I mean. 0:51:30.890 --> 0:51:32.650 In 20 years now, when people talk about the anniversary 0:51:32.650 --> 0:51:34.630 of this podcast will be claiming, oh, no, no, that 0:51:34.630 --> 0:51:36.130 was all satire. Don't worry about it, guys. 0:51:37.270 --> 0:51:38.650 I already used that excuse. 0:51:38.860 --> 0:51:39.670 Yes. 0:51:39.670 --> 0:51:42.040 So I thought that was interesting. Um, and then basically 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:43.719 he just kind of like, does a lot of podcasts 0:51:43.750 --> 0:51:45.489 now plays a lot of pickleball. 0:51:45.910 --> 0:51:47.680 Um, did he ever make anything again? 0:51:47.860 --> 0:51:52.419 Well, no. So he's kind of, uh, like, no is 0:51:52.420 --> 0:51:56.200 the answer. He's basically got a pilot, um, featuring Charlie 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:59.379 and Martin Sheen, uh, and a bunch of the guys 0:51:59.380 --> 0:52:03.070 from entourage, but it hasn't been able to get finance yet. So, yeah, 0:52:03.070 --> 0:52:04.660 he kind of, I guess he just he kind of 0:52:04.660 --> 0:52:06.400 talks about his experiences in the industry in this new 0:52:06.400 --> 0:52:09.790 podcast he has. But yeah, he definitely has been impacted, 0:52:09.790 --> 0:52:13.719 I think, a lot by the the response to entourage 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:15.940 probably beginning, I think, with the movie which he directed 0:52:15.940 --> 0:52:18.130 and wrote and which did not do very well. And 0:52:18.130 --> 0:52:19.690 then kind of I guess since then the show has 0:52:19.690 --> 0:52:23.130 increasingly been, you know, viewed poorly and seems to have 0:52:23.130 --> 0:52:25.350 aged poorly. And I think that's left an imprint on him, 0:52:25.350 --> 0:52:27.870 as would anyone. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting chat. 0:52:27.870 --> 0:52:31.170 It's interesting how few shows like it have existed. The 0:52:31.170 --> 0:52:34.260 only show I could think of that really fell right 0:52:34.260 --> 0:52:36.779 into this space is Ballers. Do you guys watch this? Yeah. 0:52:36.780 --> 0:52:37.500 I love the show. 0:52:37.500 --> 0:52:38.700 I love Dwayne Johnson. 0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:39.360 Yeah. 0:52:39.360 --> 0:52:42.930 Dwayne Johnson, uh, John David Washington, it's executive produced by 0:52:42.930 --> 0:52:45.379 Mark Wahlberg. So some of that entourage DNA is there. 0:52:45.380 --> 0:52:48.680 And it's a similar thing. Right. It's about sports managers 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:52.310 and and uh, the NFL a lot of party scenes, 0:52:52.340 --> 0:52:54.319 a lot of music, a little bit more updated like 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:56.359 this came out in 2015. So it doesn't feel kind 0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:58.250 of as cringe. And, you know, a lot of discussion 0:52:58.250 --> 0:53:00.470 about like, race because this is about a lot of 0:53:00.469 --> 0:53:02.630 players who are black. It was pretty interesting. It wasn't 0:53:02.630 --> 0:53:04.010 like that. Great. I don't think it has like a 0:53:04.010 --> 0:53:08.250 huge legacy or anything like that. But um, as I 0:53:08.250 --> 0:53:09.569 was going to say this out loud, I realized how 0:53:09.570 --> 0:53:14.130 silly it sounds, but a real noticeable, like lack of 0:53:14.130 --> 0:53:19.950 drama comedy shows about dudes hanging out together. 0:53:20.460 --> 0:53:22.470 Thank you for that. Thank you for being a thank 0:53:22.469 --> 0:53:23.940 you for being brave enough to say it. 0:53:24.870 --> 0:53:25.620 Well, it feels. 0:53:25.620 --> 0:53:28.020 Weird to say that because, like, again, I don't think like, 0:53:28.020 --> 0:53:29.819 you know, my point isn't like, this is why everyone's 0:53:29.820 --> 0:53:32.680 voting for Trump. Because men don't have shows anymore. But 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:36.489 in this space of like, beyond kind of like action, 0:53:36.489 --> 0:53:39.310 you know, and maybe like outright comedy or whatever, like 0:53:39.460 --> 0:53:44.500 the space of the dramedy where there is some ongoing 0:53:44.500 --> 0:53:48.640 kind of relationships that shift and change, and it's the 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:50.259 dynamics of a group of men, or even if it's 0:53:50.260 --> 0:53:54.130 a group of men interacting with like other women. There's 0:53:54.130 --> 0:53:55.509 not that many shows like that. 0:53:55.510 --> 0:53:58.150 I don't think there are any shows like purely. Well, 0:53:58.150 --> 0:53:59.140 not that I can think of off the top of 0:53:59.140 --> 0:54:01.029 my head. I'm sure there are, and people will let 0:54:01.030 --> 0:54:03.700 us know, but I think it's more because the real 0:54:03.700 --> 0:54:07.930 world has women in it. So women are more than just, 0:54:07.930 --> 0:54:10.780 I guess, the people they have sex with. Like so 0:54:10.780 --> 0:54:12.640 I think there are shows that focus on male. 0:54:12.790 --> 0:54:13.300 You can have a. 0:54:13.300 --> 0:54:15.610 Show, you can have a show like girls, which focuses 0:54:15.610 --> 0:54:19.240 on men. That doesn't just reduce women to like objects 0:54:19.239 --> 0:54:19.870 of sex. 0:54:19.870 --> 0:54:22.300 So you want the men to be the central characters. 0:54:22.300 --> 0:54:22.899 Like, I want. 0:54:22.930 --> 0:54:24.759 Boys, I want the show boys. Yeah. 0:54:26.440 --> 0:54:27.130 But aren't. 0:54:27.130 --> 0:54:28.030 They okay? Yeah. 0:54:28.030 --> 0:54:28.420 Look. 0:54:29.800 --> 0:54:33.370 I mean, the bear, everything revolves around. 0:54:33.370 --> 0:54:34.989 The bear is probably. You know what? The bear is 0:54:34.989 --> 0:54:37.180 probably a good shot. The bear is a show where 0:54:37.180 --> 0:54:39.700 you see a lot of men and, like, it's actually 0:54:39.700 --> 0:54:41.860 a really good, um, a really good example of this, 0:54:41.860 --> 0:54:44.700 where it's broad, there's a whole bunch of characters from 0:54:44.700 --> 0:54:46.680 all sorts of different backgrounds and whatever. But like you 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:48.930 do see a group of men who relate to each 0:54:48.930 --> 0:54:51.330 other and to other people in a dramatic and funny way. 0:54:51.330 --> 0:54:52.320 That's a really good point. 0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:53.640 Presumed innocent. 0:54:53.910 --> 0:54:55.890 That doesn't count. Don't know if that counts. 0:54:56.070 --> 0:54:59.759 A man and a group of men. Yeah, there's one woman. 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:00.300 A lot of. 0:55:00.300 --> 0:55:03.810 Them, I feel like, are couched in very genre ways. Like. 0:55:03.810 --> 0:55:05.790 Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. We've talked about it 0:55:05.790 --> 0:55:07.589 like all those things come up, but they kind of 0:55:07.590 --> 0:55:12.310 smuggled in. Maybe that's because programmers know that men wouldn't watch, 0:55:12.310 --> 0:55:15.280 like a very earnest, like, entourage. But it's woke, right? 0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:17.469 I don't know what the demographic is for that. So 0:55:17.469 --> 0:55:20.049 they're like, let's have shows like Ozark and Breaking Bad 0:55:20.050 --> 0:55:22.900 that are very gritty, justified, that sort of stuff. And 0:55:22.900 --> 0:55:25.419 then in that we'll have some really strong plotlines about 0:55:25.420 --> 0:55:29.200 men relating to each other. Honestly, this probably is why 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:31.060 people are voting for Donald Trump. I hate to break. 0:55:31.060 --> 0:55:31.570 It to you guys. 0:55:31.570 --> 0:55:35.469 Well, I was reading today a really interesting story about 0:55:35.469 --> 0:55:40.180 how rare the mail reader is. 80% of book buyers 0:55:40.180 --> 0:55:42.280 in the UK and the US are women, and they 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:44.560 the piece was linking it to kind of the Andrew 0:55:44.560 --> 0:55:48.160 Tate ification of society, where men are, you know, the 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:52.750 kind of gains attitude. Um, I mean, I hadn't really 0:55:52.750 --> 0:55:55.360 kind of linked that before and thought that was interesting 0:55:55.390 --> 0:55:57.720 to I mean, I don't know if that's relevant to 0:55:57.719 --> 0:56:00.360 what we're talking about, but sums of how men engaged 0:56:00.360 --> 0:56:01.110 with culture. 0:56:01.140 --> 0:56:03.990 A co-worker of ours yesterday did say that this was 0:56:03.989 --> 0:56:06.419 a show. Entourage was a show for Andrew Tates, which 0:56:06.420 --> 0:56:07.980 I thought was particularly offensive. 0:56:08.010 --> 0:56:09.450 That is interesting. 0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:09.960 That is really. 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:13.230 Offensive. All right, on to our, uh, final regular segment, 0:56:13.230 --> 0:56:16.140 Impress Your Friends, where we share something we watched, read, 0:56:16.140 --> 0:56:19.200 listen to, or otherwise consumed in culture in the past week. Uh, 0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:22.610 mine's a bit cheeky. Um, I am very excited about 0:56:22.610 --> 0:56:25.460 industry season three dropping in a couple of weeks. I 0:56:25.460 --> 0:56:29.239 think it's August 12th. I've been doing a rewatch of 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:31.790 seasons one and two. I really like the show. It's fun. 0:56:31.790 --> 0:56:37.100 It's like called a slightly dumber mix of succession and euphoria. Like, 0:56:37.100 --> 0:56:40.340 that's fair enough. It's set in the high powered world 0:56:40.340 --> 0:56:43.759 of finance in London. A bunch of young people get 0:56:43.760 --> 0:56:47.419 their cadetships, I guess, traineeships there. They try and like 0:56:47.420 --> 0:56:49.040 do deals and they have a lot of sex and 0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:50.990 they do a lot of drugs. It's kind of soapy. 0:56:50.989 --> 0:56:53.239 It's kind of silly. There's a lot of finance jargon. 0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:55.040 I have no idea how accurate it is. I don't 0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:58.520 really care. It's pretty cool. Um, if you're not across 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:00.920 it at all, get onto it. It's on, uh, binge. 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:04.100 It's an HBO show. It's on binge and get hype 0:57:04.100 --> 0:57:06.980 in time for season three. Mel, what have you got 0:57:06.980 --> 0:57:07.520 for us? 0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:09.640 I have a very good book. It's called Kairos, and 0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:12.580 it makes me sad that not more people are reading. Um, 0:57:12.580 --> 0:57:15.790 it won the International Booker Prize. It's by Jenny Erpenbeck 0:57:15.790 --> 0:57:18.850 and translated by Michael Hofmann. It's about this love affair 0:57:18.850 --> 0:57:21.610 between a student and a married man. There's kind of 0:57:21.610 --> 0:57:24.100 30 years between them. They meet on a bus in 0:57:24.100 --> 0:57:28.060 East Berlin and their whole relationship, which is really destructive 0:57:28.060 --> 0:57:33.450 and complicated relationship, um, kind of intellectually and emotionally charged. Um, 0:57:33.450 --> 0:57:36.570 and it's set against the backdrop of the collapse of 0:57:36.570 --> 0:57:39.450 kind of East Germany and the end of the the 0:57:39.450 --> 0:57:43.710 Communist dream. It's this really beautiful book. It's hard to explain. 0:57:43.710 --> 0:57:48.000 It's about power, art, culture. Um, and it's quite a 0:57:48.000 --> 0:57:51.870 bleak outlook on life. Um, but it is, uh, it's 0:57:51.870 --> 0:57:54.450 a book that's kind of it moved me in ways 0:57:54.450 --> 0:57:58.010 that not much contemporary literature does. Um, so yeah, I 0:57:58.010 --> 0:57:59.630 think it's well worth adding to the list, and I 0:57:59.630 --> 0:58:01.100 think you would both really like it. 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:03.380 I love hearing you talk about books, Mel. It's very 0:58:03.380 --> 0:58:06.740 insightful and you're really passionate about it, and I get 0:58:06.740 --> 0:58:09.500 very excited every time you mention them. So thank you 0:58:09.590 --> 0:58:09.800 for that. 0:58:09.800 --> 0:58:12.110 Thank you. As you can. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll send 0:58:12.110 --> 0:58:13.130 a copy up to you. 0:58:13.130 --> 0:58:13.670 I think you'd have. 0:58:13.670 --> 0:58:15.500 To buy me a book. Mel, I'm your boss. It's okay. 0:58:16.010 --> 0:58:16.280 Yeah. 0:58:16.850 --> 0:58:18.110 Uh, Thomas, what. 0:58:18.110 --> 0:58:18.440 Have you got? 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:21.140 Just to stay on trend, my recommendation is set in 0:58:21.140 --> 0:58:24.290 the world of blood sport. Um, now, this is one 0:58:24.290 --> 0:58:26.060 that's actually kind of flown under the radar. It is 0:58:26.060 --> 0:58:28.880 a TV series. It's those about to die. Uh, are 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:29.600 you guys across this? 0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:31.940 Oh, the Roman Empire? Yes. Okay. 0:58:32.270 --> 0:58:33.530 Anthony Hopkins is the guy. 0:58:33.530 --> 0:58:38.390 Yeah, man. This is this has got big, um, Oz energy. Yeah. So. Yeah. 0:58:38.390 --> 0:58:39.020 Tell us about it. 0:58:39.020 --> 0:58:41.810 It's all ten episodes. So firstly, straight up it's a 0:58:41.810 --> 0:58:44.270 binge it on the weekend vibe. All ten episodes available 0:58:44.270 --> 0:58:48.010 on Prime now. And basically like, you know, obviously we're 0:58:48.010 --> 0:58:51.040 in a bit of a kind of like gladiator mood 0:58:51.040 --> 0:58:53.500 right now with Gladiator two coming. And, you know, obviously 0:58:53.590 --> 0:58:55.870 every so often we get these shows like, remember, HBO 0:58:55.870 --> 0:58:58.030 did their big Money Like Rome show years ago that 0:58:58.030 --> 0:58:58.630 they only gave. 0:58:58.630 --> 0:58:59.620 Yeah, I loved Roman. 0:58:59.620 --> 0:59:02.320 Two seasons two, which was a fucking crime against TV. 0:59:02.410 --> 0:59:05.680 Probably the worst decision they made since cancelling entourage. But 0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:08.650 Those about to die is basically like it's set in 0:59:08.650 --> 0:59:12.360 the world of the gladiator games and, you know, kind 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:14.820 of in a similar way. It's like a succession meets 0:59:14.820 --> 0:59:19.350 Rome meets like almost like a ballers. Like we get 0:59:19.350 --> 0:59:21.480 the politics of the sport set against the backdrop of 0:59:21.480 --> 0:59:24.840 the Roman Empire. Basically, Anthony Hopkins plays the Emperor, who's 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:27.360 like very much on his last legs. He's like slowly widening. 0:59:27.360 --> 0:59:30.690 And yet as he's kind of like dying wish he 0:59:30.690 --> 0:59:34.140 wants to reinvigorate these, you know, the gladiator games. And 0:59:34.140 --> 0:59:36.000 when I first got told about this, I was like, oh, 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:38.250 this sounds like it has all the elements of being 0:59:38.250 --> 0:59:40.950 a stinker. Like, you know, big celebrity attached. That probably 0:59:40.950 --> 0:59:43.500 doesn't give a fuck about the project. Just another Roman 0:59:43.500 --> 0:59:45.750 show like this will just come and go that no 0:59:45.750 --> 0:59:48.300 one will ever talk about it. Watch a couple of episodes. 0:59:48.510 --> 0:59:50.490 It is so well done. They've spent a lot of 0:59:50.490 --> 0:59:54.750 money on it. Um, like, the set dressing is incredible. 0:59:54.750 --> 0:59:57.720 Huge cast, but like, everyone gets equal billing and there's 0:59:57.720 --> 0:59:59.990 great character arcs. I really think this is the type 0:59:59.990 --> 1:00:01.850 of show that you can like. You put on one 1:00:01.850 --> 1:00:03.830 and then like before you know it, you've got bed 1:00:03.860 --> 1:00:05.420 sores because you've been there for ten hours. 1:00:05.900 --> 1:00:08.900 Uh, great chats to him. Great episode, a lot of fun. 1:00:08.900 --> 1:00:11.690 Can't wait to find out what JD Vance thinks about 1:00:11.690 --> 1:00:15.080 Deadpool versus Wolverine. We'll talk about that next week. Uh. 1:00:15.080 --> 1:00:15.740 Take care. See you. 1:00:15.740 --> 1:00:16.610 Then. Stay bright. 1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:18.440 All right, cue the entourage theme song. 1:00:18.530 --> 1:00:24.370 Yeah, yeah, yeah, My mind had been in limbo. In 1:00:24.370 --> 1:00:28.990 the memory you overflow. Wanna be your super hero? Or 1:00:28.990 --> 1:00:33.490 even if I tumble, fall. I'm okay. 1:00:39.910 --> 1:00:43.090 This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Huang. 1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:46.000 If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, 1:00:46.000 --> 1:00:48.610 make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. 1:00:48.610 --> 1:00:51.280 Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:54.160 with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!