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S1: Hey there, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,

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S1: a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and

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S1: The Age, where we dive into the latest in the

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S1: world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas

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S1: Mitchell and Mel Cambry. What's up gang? Good evening.

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S2: Wherever you're listening to this podcast or it might be morning.

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S1: Thomas is trying to be funny because I said to him, look,

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S1: it's nice that you say good morning when we talk.

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S1: I appreciate that, but podcasts are listened to at all

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S1: hours of the day. We don't want to shatter the illusion.

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S1: You know that this only exists in one particular moment

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S1: in time.

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S2: Yes, well, I'm on board now, so wherever or whenever

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S2: you might be listening to this, I hope you are good.

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S2: It's very.

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S1: Sweet. Thank you. Mel, how are you doing?

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S3: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I feel like I.

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S3: I'm glad we've got to a stage where I can

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S3: mitigate all responsibility for having to answer you. When you say,

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S3: how are you? Like, it's just now assumed that Thomas

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S3: will take on that that role.

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S1: You did have one more responsibility.

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S2: How were you, Osman? Oh.

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S1: Not fulfilled. Oh, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking, guys. Um, well,

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S1: you know, I've. I've started boxing lessons this week. Um,

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S1: I wanted to add a little bit of cardio to

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S1: my workout regime. And boxing seems like a really fun

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S1: way to do it, and it was really fun. But

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S1: I will say my arms are quite sore and tired now. Um, Thomas,

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S1: I know that you box regularly. Do you have any

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S1: tips or tricks for me?

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S2: Uh, look, I think firstly, I think it's a really

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S2: good thing for you. Um, just to work out some

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S2: of your issues. You know, just like if you're going

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S2: to be hitting the bag, that's the bag to hit. Um,

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S2: I think no, I think it's really good. If we're going.

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S1: To be hitting something, it's better or a punching bag

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S1: than you.

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S2: Correct? Uh, no. Look, just keep your guard up, man. Um,

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S2: you know, Tyson said that everyone has a plan until

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S2: they get punched in the face. Um, he also said

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S2: a bunch of other dumb shit, but I think it's

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S2: really good. I'm here. And, Mel, you've done some boxercise before.

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S3: I haven't actually fought a story. I went to a

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S3: muay Thai boxing class with the person I was profiling,

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S3: and I found it. The most difficult thing was like,

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S3: I couldn't remember the, what do you call it, the

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S3: like when you do a whole like, like a whole

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S3: series of punches and kicks. I like, really struggled to

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S3: remember like a mortal Kombat, like when you're doing an uppercut, fly, kick.

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S3: I could not remember the order. I found that very difficult.

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S3: Do you find that challenging, Osman?

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S1: Well, I'm really just starting. So it was like, you know,

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S1: left jab, left jab, right jab, left hook. Like I

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S1: could remember that.

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S2: What's your kind of killer punch, though?

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S1: Uh, I got, like, a right hook. Yeah, yeah.

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S2: Yeah, I can see.

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S3: It. Is this in a class? Right? This isn't. No, I.

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S1: Just do it one on one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.

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S1: Just Osman.

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S2: Versus demons.

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S1: I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong on that front. Um, well,

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S1: I was going to say first things first, but we've

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S1: spent a bit of time talking about my boxing. So,

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S1: second topic of today's podcast. Um, we need to acknowledge

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S1: Thomas's psychic abilities twice in a row. Now, he is

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S1: predicted the state of origin result and the final score.

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S1: Kind of. Can't believe it, I was doubtful what a

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S1: time to be alive. The Blues did take it home

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S1: within the margin you predicted, Thomas.

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S2: Yeah, I mean, also doubtful is completely underselling what your

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S2: response was. Both of you. You were mocking me. Um. and,

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S2: you know, just like saying how outrageous it was that

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S2: let alone I would suggest the Blues would win, that

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S2: they would win in Queensland and by that scoreline and yeah,

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S2: once again, it's a big win for the Thomas heads

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S2: out there. Uh and and also we all win because

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S2: New South Wales won. Uh that's true. We all.

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S1: Did win. We all did.

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S2: Sweet. It was when Bradman best crossed over for that

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S2: try Osman.

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S1: Oh my God it was incredible. Our text messages were

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S1: just ecstatic, full of pure joy.

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S3: And this was the first time I've kind of watched

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S3: The State of Origin, all three of them. What I

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S3: found most shocking, and that was mainly off the back

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S3: of Thomas's encouragement. Um, what I found most shocking was

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S3: that the sin bin is a metaphorical concept, that they

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S3: just go and sit on the bench. I found that,

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S3: what do you think?

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S1: That they were put in a literal bin?

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S3: Not in a literal bin, but I thought they went

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S3: somewhere for like time out by themselves. Like they didn't

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S3: just get to go and sit with their mates and, like,

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S3: get Gatorade and relax. They should go and sit somewhere

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S3: where they are made to feel ashamed.

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S2: They do typically go into the dressing room and then

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S2: right before they come back on, I think they come

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S2: back to the bench.

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S3: Okay. Right.

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S2: So they are they are in a bin. I think you're.

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S1: Confused because there was a player, um, was Angus Crichton,

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S1: who was who just preemptively sat down before he was

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S1: sin binned. And then he had to get up and

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S1: then was sent to the sin bin.

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S3: Yeah, okay. Maybe that threw me. There you go. I'm

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S3: still learning.

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S2: Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a

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S2: great night for everyone and, um, probably, you know, winning

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S2: State of Origin in Queensland, one of the great male fantasies.

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S1: Speaking of great male fantasies, can you guys believe it's

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S1: been 20 years since entourage debuted on HBO? God damn,

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S1: we are old folks. That is crazy. Uh, the show,

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S1: I think, shaped way more men in way more ways

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S1: than they will ever willingly admit that perhaps Thomas and

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S1: I will admit that on the podcast a little bit later, uh,

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S1: we're going to discuss why it's the greatest show of

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S1: all time, while Mel mercilessly mocks us for being retrograde Neanderthals. Uh,

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S1: we're also going to discuss the extraordinary dominance of Charli

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S1: Xcx's brat. Not just the music, but the vibe, the aesthetic,

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S1: the memes, the brat summer the Northern Hemisphere has had

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S1: over the past couple of months, and talk about how

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S1: maybe brat Summer has reached a peak and potential decline

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S1: with the political embrace of the meme, in particularly Kamala

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S1: Harris aligning herself so closely with this kind of funny,

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S1: weird countercultural brand. And speaking of Harris, we talked a

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S1: little bit about US politics last week. It's very funny

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S1: for us as a pop culture podcast to weigh in,

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S1: and I am keen to get your guys takes on,

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S1: you know, who Kamala should pick as her vice president.

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S1: But there's been a real convergence of pop culture and politics.

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S1: This is a very American thing. Obviously, they're very into

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S1: their celebs running for President Reagan, Schwarzenegger as governor. Trump himself,

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S1: I guess, is like a cultural celebrity turned politician. Uh,

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S1: I would say maybe now we're living in a period

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S1: where there's a little bit too much pop culture in politics.

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S1: George Clooney wrote that opinion piece for The New York

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S1: Times that, I guess, kind of started the avalanche of

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S1: people saying Biden should step down. I don't know if

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S1: you guys caught Aaron Sorkin's op ed on the weekend,

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S1: he wrote. So Aaron Sorkin, obviously creator of The West Wing,

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S1: Sports Night, The Newsroom, he wrote The Social Network, Molly's Game,

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S1: very well known writer, and a lot of people love

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S1: to make fun of The West Wing for how kind

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S1: of cringe it was in its politics at the time,

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S1: and this kind of small l liberal fantasy. He wrote

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S1: the most Aaron Sorkin opinion piece of all time, where

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S1: he was like, Joe Biden should step down and I

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S1: know who should be the nominee. It should be Mitt Romney,

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S1: the Republican, and people like Aaron Sorkin. That is crazy.

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S1: And then the timing was hilarious because two hours later,

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S1: Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris was the nominee, and

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S1: Sorkin tweeted something like, oh, no, no. Just for the record,

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S1: I agree with Kamala. This is really good. This is

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S1: really good. Um, real galaxy brain stuff for him. But

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S1: seeing the list of celebrities kind of come out and

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S1: say things. Spike Lee was very quick to, to throw

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S1: his support. I think he called Kamala like de Gaulle

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S1: or something like that. Uh, good on you, spike. Uh,

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S1: Robert De Niro said thank you to Joe Biden for

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S1: stepping down. One man in his 80s, you know, applauding

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S1: another man in his 80s, um, hopefully doesn't mean that

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S1: De Niro will also step down from his acting prime.

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S1: And then, on the other hand, Trump has Hulk Hogan

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S1: and Kid Rock. Did you guys watch any of those

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S1: performances from the RNC? What did you make of it?

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S2: Ah, I mean, like as a WWE fan, when I

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S2: in my younger years, I was like, oh, Hulk Hogan's

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S2: still alive. Barely. But yeah, I mean, it is very funny. Like,

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S2: I guess just like seeing kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. Like,

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S2: if you were to find two celebs that were like

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S2: so aligned with Trumpland, I suppose that makes sense. But

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S2: I think generally, like on both sides, people have this real,

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S2: I think, like pushback against seeing any time they feel

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S2: that a celebrity is like, you know, kind of trying

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S2: to push them in a particular way or, you know,

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S2: just even involve with the political movement. I think our,

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S2: you know, like suspicion of celebrity kind of activism is

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S2: so high right now that, like, I don't know how

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S2: much weight. I mean, you're right in that the Clooney piece,

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S2: I think did he's such a big, important Democrat. He's

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S2: like almost like his relationship to the Democrats is less

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S2: of like a celebrity thing. Like he's properly involved.

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S1: Yes. Yeah. He's like a major donor and yeah, like

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S1: that that held weight.

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S2: But I think generally we're wary of celebrity activism now

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S2: on both sides of the corridor.

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S3: Yeah, I think that's probably true. And they've become like

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S3: obviously increasingly visible players in global politics because of their

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S3: fanbases and their media reach and their access to their

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S3: own platforms. Um, it's probably it's an interesting question for democracy,

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S3: really not to make it too serious because there.

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S1: Make it serious, man. We're talking about the presidential election.

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S1: This is serious stuff.

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S3: That's true because there are power comes from their ability

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S3: to kind of attract attention, but they have no political expertise.

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S3: So I mean, that is kind of, you know, whether

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S3: that translates to electoral influence and policy is an interesting question.

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S3: I don't actually think it does. Same with you, Thomas. Like,

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S3: I don't know if it's it changes, um, the, the

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S3: poll results. And we have seen in the past high

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S3: profile endorsements, really high profile endorsements that have made no difference.

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S3: I think maybe it has the biggest impact on the

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S3: celebrity's public image. Like that's actually where the biggest change is.

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S2: Because it's funny already, like with the like Kamala thing.

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S2: It's like so many people I've seen tweeting like, Where's Taylor?

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S2: Like kind of waiting for the Taylor drop to be like,

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S2: you know, and maybe she is one of the few

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S2: people that still can, like move the needle. Like if

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S2: Taylor Swift came out in support of Kamala. Really hardcore,

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S2: you know, like telling people to vote, telling people to

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S2: sign up, would that maybe, you know, change things?

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S1: I actually agree with you that that is maybe the

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S1: one person that could I largely agree with what you

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S1: guys have said. I think in an American political context,

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S1: someone reminded me of this yesterday. We'll talk more about

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S1: the Charlie Kamala thing. And I was like, well, does

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S1: that really matter if someone like Taylor Swift or Charli

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S1: XCX endorses Kamala Harris? Like how many, you know, 22

221
00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:13,449
S1: year olds listening to brat are like, well, I was

222
00:10:13,450 --> 00:10:16,030
S1: going to vote for Trump, but now Charli has come out,

223
00:10:16,030 --> 00:10:18,310
S1: I might switch. But then they reminded me that the

224
00:10:18,309 --> 00:10:22,360
S1: US has their, uh, you know, non-compulsory voting system. And

225
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,400
S1: there's a lot of young people who feel very cynical

226
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,849
S1: about both sides and might just stay home, but someone

227
00:10:27,850 --> 00:10:30,070
S1: like Taylor Swift saying, hey guys, if you want to

228
00:10:30,070 --> 00:10:33,020
S1: protect abortion rights or whatever, you should get organized and

229
00:10:33,020 --> 00:10:36,020
S1: register and go vote. That could shift the dial in

230
00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:39,140
S1: a way that probably like De Niro and Spike Lee

231
00:10:39,290 --> 00:10:41,210
S1: even probably are not going to.

232
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,730
S3: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's very true,

233
00:10:43,730 --> 00:10:45,950
S3: because I think the fact that they don't have to

234
00:10:45,950 --> 00:10:49,730
S3: compulsorily vote is really where the power of these celebrities lies,

235
00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:51,500
S3: particularly for the for the Democrats.

236
00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:53,270
S1: Before we move on from this one, I just there's

237
00:10:53,270 --> 00:10:54,800
S1: a regular segment we're going to have now is like

238
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,900
S1: what JD Vance is up to. We had a lot

239
00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:59,809
S1: of fun talking about him last week. This is Trump's, uh,

240
00:10:59,809 --> 00:11:04,489
S1: pick for the vice presidency. Um, the author that Mel loves, uh,

241
00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:09,140
S1: really funny, interesting people found his, like, blogspot from 2011

242
00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:11,929
S1: or maybe even earlier where he, he talks about, like,

243
00:11:11,929 --> 00:11:15,230
S1: his life traveling from Ohio to Yale and, you know,

244
00:11:15,230 --> 00:11:18,590
S1: his kind of suburban malaise. Uh, Henry gave us a

245
00:11:18,590 --> 00:11:21,280
S1: little bit of a review of Garden State, the Zach

246
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,640
S1: Braff film. So he's talking about being in the airport,

247
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,760
S1: and he says, I couldn't watch Garden State because New

248
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,329
S1: Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's. The music is

249
00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:34,030
S1: so relevant to my life right now. And the story

250
00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:36,400
S1: of a guy returning home, realizing that home isn't what

251
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,610
S1: it used to be, etc. made me want to tear up.

252
00:11:39,610 --> 00:11:42,520
S1: I mean, that's Garden State in a nutshell, right? It really.

253
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,140
S2: Is. I never really I can't believe he was like

254
00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:45,210
S2: a shins guy.

255
00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:49,680
S1: Lebanese blonde by Thievery Corp, just, you know, makes him weep.

256
00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:50,550
S1: Still to this day.

257
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:52,950
S3: It's so strange how he's managed to make something quite

258
00:11:52,950 --> 00:11:55,349
S3: banal sound so poignant.

259
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,589
S1: You can't get off this hype train at all, can you, man?

260
00:11:58,650 --> 00:11:59,580
S1: You're just like, damn.

261
00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:01,770
S3: I want more. I mean, also, I'd love to imagine

262
00:12:01,770 --> 00:12:04,229
S3: what was on your blogspot of 2011.

263
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:06,330
S1: Well, honestly, when I saw that, I was like, shit,

264
00:12:06,330 --> 00:12:07,140
S1: is that still up?

265
00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:09,320
S2: Yeah, I probably need to do like a bit of did.

266
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:10,189
S3: You really blog?

267
00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:12,260
S2: I mean, it's best not to talk about it. Uh,

268
00:12:12,260 --> 00:12:14,960
S2: is there a JD Vance review of The Legend of

269
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:16,940
S2: Bagger Vance? Because that I think.

270
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:22,250
S1: That's really funny. That's really funny. Um, yeah. My blog

271
00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:24,439
S1: when I was a teenager was about New South Wales

272
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:25,610
S1: state politics. That's how cool.

273
00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:26,240
S2: Oh my God.

274
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,730
S1: Wow. It was called Macquarie Street.

275
00:12:28,730 --> 00:12:30,710
S2: It's set in a dune world.

276
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:33,719
S4: Yeah. interpreted through fiction.

277
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,059
S1: It wasn't fan fiction, maybe. I don't know what's lamer

278
00:12:36,059 --> 00:12:38,670
S1: that I was writing serious news stories when I was 15,

279
00:12:38,670 --> 00:12:42,900
S1: or writing fan fiction about, um, Premier Nathan Rees. I

280
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,110
S1: was not doing that for the record. Um, that's a throwback. Uh,

281
00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:48,960
S1: let's talk about brat. We discussed the album at length

282
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,720
S1: when it was released on June 7th. It has become

283
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,170
S1: Charli's biggest selling album yet, but I think what's become

284
00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:58,690
S1: even bigger is the, I guess vibe, the meme, the

285
00:12:58,690 --> 00:13:02,320
S1: aura around brat. How do you describe it? Well, according

286
00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:06,820
S1: to Charlie herself, brat is a little messy, likes to party,

287
00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:11,110
S1: and maybe says some dumb things sometime. Someone who feels herself,

288
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:13,690
S1: but then also maybe has a breakdown, but kind of

289
00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:17,079
S1: like parties through it. They're very honest, very blunt, a

290
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,290
S1: little bit volatile. Mel, in your group chats with girls. Women?

291
00:13:22,290 --> 00:13:25,260
S1: Is that how you guys are describing yourselves these days?

292
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:28,530
S1: Is this is this the mood, the vibe amongst cool

293
00:13:28,890 --> 00:13:33,510
S1: millennial Gen Z women? This kind of brat aura?

294
00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:36,839
S3: I was hoping you might describe me as urbane again. That's, uh.

295
00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:41,580
S3: I was really hoping that might make a reappearance. Uh, look,

296
00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:43,830
S3: on a on one level, I find on the surface level,

297
00:13:43,830 --> 00:13:45,270
S3: if I don't think about it too much, I find

298
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:48,600
S3: brat like the movement very fun. I think it's, uh,

299
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,920
S3: it's a fun movement on the socials, and I think it's, uh,

300
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,810
S3: it's people are having a lot of fun with it.

301
00:13:54,809 --> 00:13:57,390
S3: If I really think about it, I guess, I mean,

302
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:59,580
S3: all kind of labels like that are kind of reductive

303
00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:02,490
S3: and performative. Um, but I think the more interesting thing

304
00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:05,730
S3: is like, what is brat reacting against? Like, why is

305
00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:08,310
S3: brat having a moment? And I guess it's kind of

306
00:14:08,309 --> 00:14:13,220
S3: moving against that clean girl aesthetic, which is dominated TikTok

307
00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:16,550
S3: and also fashion. The idea of the put together girl

308
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:19,940
S3: with the slick backed bun and the neutral nails and

309
00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:22,910
S3: the the clothes that don't kind of stand out. Like

310
00:14:22,910 --> 00:14:25,820
S3: it's obviously a very direct reaction against that. And it's

311
00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:29,120
S3: obviously a reaction against a feminism that Gen Z sees

312
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,460
S3: as too serious and and stifling. So I think that

313
00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:35,950
S3: part of it is interesting. And I mean, ultimately it's

314
00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:40,450
S3: about owning elements of oneself that have traditionally been seen

315
00:14:40,450 --> 00:14:43,720
S3: as troubling for women, like women who like to party,

316
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:46,780
S3: who are messy. So I guess it's good that you're like,

317
00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:49,720
S3: that level is being reclaimed. But I mean, ultimately, I

318
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,050
S3: do kind of wonder if brat is Manic Pixie for

319
00:14:53,050 --> 00:14:55,960
S3: a 21st century. It's manic pixie with a bit of edge. Really.

320
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,739
S3: I don't think anything's new. Um, so I'm cautious of

321
00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:03,040
S3: it and interested. And I believe I can be a brat.

322
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,150
S1: That's an interesting take. I, Thomas, loath as I am

323
00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:10,270
S1: to ask you this question in particular, but, um, one

324
00:15:10,270 --> 00:15:12,490
S1: one thing that stood out to me about that kind

325
00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:15,250
S1: of Charli description of it, and it certainly seems to like,

326
00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:18,010
S1: resonate with the way it's being deployed by people I

327
00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:20,620
S1: know on social media. There's the kind of like, you know,

328
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:22,590
S1: just like, you know, we're girls and we're a bit wacky.

329
00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:24,300
S1: We like to party. We're also a little bit dumb.

330
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,840
S1: That does seem to be a vibe at the moment.

331
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,210
S1: And to Mel's point, it does also seem to be

332
00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:32,250
S1: a bit of a reaction to this kind of broader

333
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:35,520
S1: idea of like, I don't want to get, I don't

334
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,770
S1: want to get too ideological about this stuff, but like

335
00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:41,010
S1: this mode of feminism that we seem to be in

336
00:15:41,010 --> 00:15:45,180
S1: reflected through culture, of that kind of like girlboss work hard,

337
00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:47,270
S1: you can make it all work. Get what you want.

338
00:15:47,270 --> 00:15:49,760
S1: There's a there's a way out of like the trap

339
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,540
S1: of kind of capitalism and the sociological factors that apply

340
00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:56,000
S1: and everyone kind of realizing that that is all a

341
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,640
S1: bit bullshit and like, what's the point of working our

342
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,200
S1: way up to the top and playing by the rules?

343
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,180
S1: It's all stupid. Anyway. Let's just have a bit of

344
00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:06,350
S1: dumb fun. The kind of return of the tradwife thing.

345
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:09,320
S1: The explosion of Red scare, which is obviously referenced in

346
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,830
S1: Charlie's album all seems to be part of this too.

347
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,070
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we're definitely living

348
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:21,500
S2: in a time when young people, capital P are feeling

349
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:22,880
S2: like a certain.

350
00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:24,110
S3: Was it a capital P?

351
00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:27,229
S2: I don't know. Capital. Capital P a feeling like a

352
00:16:27,230 --> 00:16:29,420
S2: certain level of hopelessness. And I think that has manifested

353
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:32,480
S2: itself in this like for, you know, young millennial women,

354
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,380
S2: it's kind of like the way you get ahead of like,

355
00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:38,740
S2: the future that's been dictated to you anyway. And like,

356
00:16:38,740 --> 00:16:41,650
S2: you know, I that makes so much sense to me. Like,

357
00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:44,260
S2: it's it's a kind of grim outlook out there for

358
00:16:44,260 --> 00:16:47,230
S2: so many people like, you know, both here and overseas and,

359
00:16:47,230 --> 00:16:49,300
S2: and in all kind of aspects of life. And so

360
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:51,490
S2: like this makes sense that it's popping up again. Like

361
00:16:51,490 --> 00:16:53,860
S2: I do agree, this is just a repetition of, you know,

362
00:16:53,860 --> 00:16:56,410
S2: like stuff we've seen before, like, you know, like the

363
00:16:56,410 --> 00:16:58,240
S2: whole hot mess thing that was like being in the

364
00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:58,990
S2: kind of late, which was.

365
00:16:58,990 --> 00:17:01,300
S3: Also a form of manic pixie, I think, like a development.

366
00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:03,820
S2: Like I remember there's a whole Hot Mess episode of

367
00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:06,460
S2: The Mindy Project with, like, you know, that character was

368
00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:09,760
S2: completely brat. Uh, and same with Fleabag, even, like, she

369
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,379
S2: was a hot mess, which is a brat, like, you know,

370
00:17:11,380 --> 00:17:13,180
S2: it's all just an evolution of the same thing. But

371
00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:15,670
S2: I think it's particularly like big right now. And I do,

372
00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:20,830
S2: you know, as you know, I go on Instagram and like,

373
00:17:20,830 --> 00:17:23,670
S2: see these trends. But like you do see lots of

374
00:17:23,670 --> 00:17:25,020
S2: like I've got lots of my friends who are like

375
00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:27,990
S2: super smart, successful women. And then they'll be posting stuff

376
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:30,270
S2: like kind of like tongue in cheek about like how

377
00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:32,010
S2: messed up and like fucked up their lives are and

378
00:17:32,010 --> 00:17:35,520
S2: like lol. And it's kind of like it's true. Like,

379
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,469
S2: but they're just kind of getting ahead of the curve,

380
00:17:37,470 --> 00:17:40,980
S2: I think, and kind of claiming it to own what's

381
00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:43,649
S2: really going on. But like, they're not really those people.

382
00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:46,040
S1: Yeah. It's not it's not cool right now to be

383
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,830
S1: successful and to be playing by the rules. It's cooler

384
00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:51,830
S1: to embrace a kind of nihilism or irony and just

385
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:54,050
S1: lean into that. Even if you know you work in

386
00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:56,210
S1: finance 14 hours a day, that's not what you want

387
00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:58,250
S1: to project. But then I also think, like there is

388
00:17:58,250 --> 00:18:01,280
S1: a genuine sense of that nihilism that you're describing in

389
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,620
S1: terms of just how a lot of people our generation

390
00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:05,929
S1: and younger feel about where the world is going.

391
00:18:05,930 --> 00:18:07,760
S3: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think you

392
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:13,000
S3: could also maybe read the the hedonism that is embodied in,

393
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,480
S3: in the brat kind of idea, not just as nihilism,

394
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,890
S3: but hedonism as reacting against expectations of women, all of them.

395
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:22,750
S3: So if you kind of take brat as its base

396
00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:24,790
S3: level as that, then that is a positive thing. If

397
00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:27,340
S3: it's about reacting against, you know, what's expected of you,

398
00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:30,790
S3: traditional stereotypes, how society wants you to behave, then if

399
00:18:30,790 --> 00:18:32,860
S3: that's the net level of it, then I guess that's

400
00:18:32,859 --> 00:18:35,859
S3: a good thing. But, um, yeah, always wary of these things.

401
00:18:35,859 --> 00:18:36,340
S3: But I do think.

402
00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:38,710
S2: It is funny that like the split in, I would

403
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:41,590
S2: say like, you know, we're all in our like mid

404
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:44,830
S2: 30s the I think like the people that I see

405
00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:47,139
S2: around me like in my, you know, like echo chamber,

406
00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:49,990
S2: the women especially who are like adopting it, it definitely

407
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:52,300
S2: is in more of like a like kind of performative

408
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,160
S2: like this is a funny trend. Like, I could I'm

409
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,410
S2: happy to like jump on this for a bit. Whereas like,

410
00:18:56,410 --> 00:18:58,690
S2: I think the I mean, the origins of the actual

411
00:18:58,690 --> 00:19:01,090
S2: brat movement that, you know, perhaps Charlie was referring to

412
00:19:01,090 --> 00:19:04,480
S2: and maybe like, you know, people, women in their kind

413
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,780
S2: of like, early 20s are really talking about is a

414
00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:10,780
S2: more genuine feeling of like, well, this is all pretty fucked,

415
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:13,360
S2: like whatever. Whereas I think, like the older you get,

416
00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,190
S2: it's like you kind of you can clock the vibe

417
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:16,629
S2: and you can clock the trend and you're like, oh,

418
00:19:16,630 --> 00:19:18,910
S2: this is quite a fun one for me to jump on.

419
00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:22,360
S2: But like, also I have a, you know, $800,000 mortgage

420
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,220
S2: and I get paid $200,000 a year. And like, I'm,

421
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:26,810
S2: you know, planning my second child and shit.

422
00:19:26,810 --> 00:19:29,270
S3: Yeah. Like totally. If you're going to be kind of

423
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:33,109
S3: partying all the time and, um, not caring about things,

424
00:19:33,109 --> 00:19:35,270
S3: the early 20s is the time to do that.

425
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:36,230
S2: Yeah, exactly.

426
00:19:36,590 --> 00:19:39,350
S1: There is a visual element to this as well. It's

427
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:42,260
S1: defined by like the brat cover up, the lime green,

428
00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:46,780
S1: that sort of simple font. And Charlie's aesthetic on this

429
00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:51,010
S1: very like early 2000 club rat kind of energy. It

430
00:19:51,010 --> 00:19:53,200
S1: is kind of everywhere. And to your point, I think

431
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,180
S1: a lot of this is being passing this through what

432
00:19:55,180 --> 00:19:57,550
S1: women I know are posting on Instagram. And it's just like,

433
00:19:57,550 --> 00:20:00,610
S1: anytime there's anything green people on holiday, they're like, you know,

434
00:20:00,609 --> 00:20:04,300
S1: I'm in Copenhagen right now. Brat. London. Uh, and that

435
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:05,590
S1: has been I mean, it's kind of fun. It's just

436
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:09,700
S1: nice that there's another universal ish meme that everyone kind

437
00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:13,300
S1: of understands and has jumped on. Um, pretty harmless, pretty cool.

438
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:17,710
S1: But then it starts to bleed into politics. Everything fun

439
00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:21,010
S1: and good and organic ultimately gets eaten up by big

440
00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:26,260
S1: machines in some capacity. Uh, so Kamala Harris, uh, we

441
00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:29,080
S1: didn't say this explicitly. She's, you know, the presumptive Democratic

442
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,470
S1: nominee for the presidency. In case people haven't been following

443
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:35,730
S1: that stuff super closely, she has a tendency to say

444
00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:40,710
S1: slightly odd things. You guys across the coconut tree thing? Yeah, yeah,

445
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:42,090
S1: it's really funny clip.

446
00:20:42,540 --> 00:20:44,970
S5: My mother used to she would give us a hard

447
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:47,430
S5: time sometimes and she would say to us, I don't

448
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:50,160
S5: know what's wrong with you young people. You think you

449
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,290
S5: just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in

450
00:20:55,290 --> 00:20:59,810
S5: the context of all in which you live and what

451
00:20:59,810 --> 00:21:04,130
S5: came before you. So all of this opponents of.

452
00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:06,739
S1: Harris have made all these videos mashing up, you know,

453
00:21:06,740 --> 00:21:09,169
S1: like slightly wacky things that she said and trying to

454
00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:13,040
S1: expose her as this, you know, quote unquote mad woman. Uh,

455
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,280
S1: but then fans of Harris have like, kind of reclaimed

456
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,930
S1: that and remixed those videos using tracks from brat, adding

457
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:23,300
S1: kind of like lime green colors to it and being like,

458
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,399
S1: Camila is Camila's brat, man, this is it. Just a

459
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,380
S1: bit messy. She's a bit dumb. She's going for it.

460
00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:29,510
S1: She's handed out, she's at the club. This is how

461
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:30,199
S1: it works.

462
00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:31,250
S4: Um.

463
00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:35,510
S1: A couple of days ago, Charli herself tweeted after, like,

464
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:41,750
S1: Camila became the presumptive nominee. Camilla is brat. Harry's team, uh,

465
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:45,080
S1: is using the brat font as their banner image on

466
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,520
S1: social media. So they are like really like loving this alignment.

467
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,630
S1: And these two forces, this kind of like club energy

468
00:21:52,630 --> 00:22:00,100
S1: from London to Washington DC have bizarrely merged together. Uh, and,

469
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:01,870
S1: you know, you could say that like, this is the

470
00:22:01,869 --> 00:22:04,210
S1: peak of brat. You could argue that perhaps this is

471
00:22:04,210 --> 00:22:06,790
S1: the beginning of the end of brat. In Australia, the

472
00:22:06,790 --> 00:22:10,390
S1: Queensland Premier, Steven Miles, posted a TikTok where he was

473
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:13,200
S1: at the, uh, workshop where they were building new buses for.

474
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,870
S1: For Brisbane there were lime green and he was like, nah,

475
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:19,260
S1: buses are so bright. I feel like when the Queensland

476
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:21,810
S1: Premier's posting stuff, it's like done and dusted. The camera

477
00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:24,180
S1: thing I think is a little bit more interesting. I'm

478
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:25,830
S1: keen to talk to you guys about whether or not

479
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:29,160
S1: you think this is the beginning of the end of brat,

480
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,119
S1: now that it's been so embraced by like, the Democratic machine?

481
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,840
S1: Or is it brat evolving into another level of cultural dominance?

482
00:22:37,140 --> 00:22:39,960
S2: I mean, I fear it's the beginning of the end.

483
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,410
S2: Like after they retweeted the brat thing, my father in law,

484
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:45,840
S2: who is and he won't mind me saying this, a

485
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,600
S2: big Trump fan, he texted to the family group and

486
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,389
S2: he was like, what is this? Like, what is brat?

487
00:22:51,390 --> 00:22:53,189
S2: And then it's just a series of messages where he

488
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:57,629
S2: was like, also, I'm hearing that potentially Biden is dead. Um,

489
00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:00,619
S2: that's a whole other podcast. But he's I mean, I

490
00:23:00,619 --> 00:23:02,090
S2: don't know if you guys know, but Biden is dead.

491
00:23:02,090 --> 00:23:03,109
S2: That's the hot tip.

492
00:23:03,109 --> 00:23:05,750
S1: That's our that's our Patreon podcast. Find out. Yeah.

493
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,629
S2: That one. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, when once

494
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:13,399
S2: brat awareness has hit, you know, the suburban 65 year

495
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,160
S2: old dads in Australia, it's over.

496
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,680
S1: Unfortunately, that's where memes go to die, man.

497
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,830
S2: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When he's screenshotting them off a Facebook

498
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:24,159
S2: screenshot and posting them into the WhatsApp thread, then the

499
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,050
S2: meme is dead. But no. Yeah, I think I think,

500
00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:28,179
S2: you know, like good on them for doing it. And

501
00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:31,360
S2: also it was actually perfect for their campaign because like,

502
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,040
S2: you know, she's coming in like kind of behind the

503
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,959
S2: eight ball. This is of all the great I mean

504
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,119
S2: to use another set of origin phrase of all the

505
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,050
S2: great hospital passes, Biden has absolutely centering. And, you know,

506
00:23:41,050 --> 00:23:44,290
S2: like Gordon Taylor is bearing down on her. But I

507
00:23:44,290 --> 00:23:45,790
S2: feel like that gave her a bit of momentum like that.

508
00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:47,110
S2: This has given her a bit of a like, you know,

509
00:23:47,109 --> 00:23:50,020
S2: the campaign, a kickstart. There's like something to rally behind. Um,

510
00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:52,360
S2: people are, you know, like think it's really funny, but

511
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,460
S2: I just don't know if that if it's kind of

512
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:56,230
S2: the beginning of the end for brat Summer.

513
00:23:56,260 --> 00:23:58,240
S3: Yeah. I reckon it's definitely the beginning of the end.

514
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,310
S3: I would have thought, like, you know, these social media

515
00:24:00,310 --> 00:24:03,369
S3: trends hit their peak and then come down the other side.

516
00:24:03,369 --> 00:24:05,080
S3: So I would have seen that coming in the next

517
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,840
S3: few months. I think this is probably hastened it. Um,

518
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,780
S3: particularly because the people who were enjoying this trend were

519
00:24:10,780 --> 00:24:13,949
S3: much younger, the people appropriating it are much older. So

520
00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:15,989
S3: I think they will start to it will start to

521
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:17,909
S3: get used less. I think it will go through its

522
00:24:17,910 --> 00:24:20,820
S3: period of being ironically used now, like it was genuinely used.

523
00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:23,700
S3: Now we're in irony stage, and then we'll look back

524
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:25,379
S3: on this in a few years and be like, well,

525
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,810
S3: that was that brief lived brat summer. But I think

526
00:24:27,810 --> 00:24:30,660
S3: the use of the politicians using it is interesting, because

527
00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:33,510
S3: I do think it then, even though I think brat

528
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:37,100
S3: is political, it doesn't ostensibly seem to be. Whereas I

529
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,220
S3: think when politicians use it, it takes it into the dome,

530
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,800
S3: it takes it into the domain of the political, which

531
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,120
S3: then makes it less kind of universal. Um, and then,

532
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,600
S3: you know, claiming to be brat or describing things as

533
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,750
S3: brat then becomes a political action. So then it's less used.

534
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:55,940
S3: So yes, I think, um, I think it's the beginning

535
00:24:55,940 --> 00:24:58,820
S3: of the end. But I'm glad you're wearing green today, Thomas.

536
00:24:58,820 --> 00:25:00,560
S2: Yes, that's true actually.

537
00:25:00,590 --> 00:25:04,580
S1: Who do you think, uh, benefits more from this alignment

538
00:25:04,580 --> 00:25:09,050
S1: between Harris and Bratt? Like, you know, Thomas, you said

539
00:25:09,050 --> 00:25:11,120
S1: it gives her this, like, boost, a bit of energy.

540
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,180
S1: I agree with that. Generally speaking, I'd be like, the

541
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:17,270
S1: celebrity loses out, but Charlie is someone who's finally, like,

542
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:20,000
S1: really done well in the US market. After plugging away

543
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,950
S1: for a while, I'd be interesting to watch the charts

544
00:25:21,950 --> 00:25:24,760
S1: and be like, if this does enter the American kind

545
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,620
S1: of conversation for a week or two, when a whole

546
00:25:26,619 --> 00:25:28,899
S1: bunch of people who are like, oh, what's this about?

547
00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:31,750
S1: Listen to her albums, potentially. This is a big boost

548
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:34,629
S1: for her as well. You know, in in swing states

549
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:35,470
S1: like Michigan.

550
00:25:35,470 --> 00:25:39,670
S3: And yeah, I think that's probably true. And maybe they're

551
00:25:39,670 --> 00:25:42,310
S3: trying to get the Barack Obama when he first went

552
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:44,920
S3: into office, had that whole kind of coolness behind him,

553
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,230
S3: like he was a cool candidate. And so maybe they're

554
00:25:47,230 --> 00:25:50,130
S3: trying to replicate that in this way as well.

555
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,930
S1: I think the other part of this is that, like,

556
00:25:51,930 --> 00:25:55,350
S1: even though there's a chance, uh, that Charlie gets some,

557
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:57,990
S1: you know, extra streams out of it, there's also a

558
00:25:57,990 --> 00:26:01,139
S1: risk in, like, I wouldn't say that like Charlie or Brad,

559
00:26:01,170 --> 00:26:06,450
S1: heads necessarily overlap neatly with, like, Democratic vice presidential candidates

560
00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:09,990
S1: who used to be cops and prosecutors and, you know, have,

561
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:12,510
S1: you know, conservative foreign policy. So there's there's also like

562
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:15,270
S1: I've seen Charli XCX fans, this is the risk for

563
00:26:15,270 --> 00:26:18,570
S1: celebs in this space be like, oh, this is so lame. Like,

564
00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:21,090
S1: this is not what I want you to be using. Like,

565
00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:22,889
S1: if you're if you're like a 24 year old girl

566
00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:25,859
S1: and you've been pumping out brat content in between, like

567
00:26:25,859 --> 00:26:28,470
S1: really hectic, radical political slides, and then all of a

568
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:31,980
S1: sudden charli's like Camila is brat, you'd be feeling pretty.

569
00:26:31,980 --> 00:26:33,209
S4: Pissed off with the stock you.

570
00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:35,250
S1: Bought a month or so ago, right?

571
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,550
S2: Yeah. That's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of I mean,

572
00:26:38,550 --> 00:26:40,500
S2: I like it's probably one of those things that we're

573
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:43,800
S2: obviously sitting here discussing it. She probably just like knowing

574
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,320
S2: Charlie as I do. Um, she probably just like, fucking

575
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,270
S2: fired it off and was like, this is funny.

576
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:50,340
S1: This is funny. Totally. And now here's a bunch of

577
00:26:50,340 --> 00:26:51,540
S1: people in their 30s debating it.

578
00:26:51,540 --> 00:26:54,090
S2: Yeah, yeah. And me being like, I think what it is. No.

579
00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:57,330
S2: But like, yeah, that's probably like the reality of what happened. Um,

580
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:59,430
S2: and now we just kind of like watch it all

581
00:26:59,430 --> 00:27:02,090
S2: play out. But yeah, I would say just like slightly

582
00:27:02,090 --> 00:27:04,610
S2: off topic, but I do think this whole thing has

583
00:27:04,609 --> 00:27:07,609
S2: made me a little bit excited just for the general

584
00:27:07,609 --> 00:27:10,640
S2: meme environment leading up to the election, because it has

585
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,859
S2: been amazing already. Not off topic.

586
00:27:12,859 --> 00:27:15,410
S1: We have. We're veering into like Pod Save America territory

587
00:27:15,410 --> 00:27:17,360
S1: for the next, you know, six months. This is what

588
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,230
S1: we're doing now.

589
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:20,659
S2: And one of my favorite ones, uh, was just as

590
00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:22,429
S2: soon as this all happened. Have you seen the one, like,

591
00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:25,740
S2: going around like the the headshot of Connor Roy, and

592
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:28,680
S2: it's like he's tanned. He's ready. I was like, man, amazing.

593
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,600
S2: This was the guy we should have had leading. Um, like,

594
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,280
S2: the internet is just going to do it. So this

595
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,690
S2: has been obviously a very, you know, insane and turbulent, um,

596
00:27:36,690 --> 00:27:38,609
S2: kind of like few months in the lead up to

597
00:27:38,609 --> 00:27:41,190
S2: the election with everything that's going on, like between Biden

598
00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:42,810
S2: pulling out and the assassination, and the internet is just

599
00:27:42,810 --> 00:27:44,070
S2: like fucking doing what it does.

600
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:45,630
S1: Best, man. You said a few months, it's been like

601
00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:49,260
S1: three weeks since Donald Trump was shot in the head,

602
00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:52,830
S1: and Joe Biden's pulled out of the race. Crazy times.

603
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,350
S2: Tenacious D with an unsuspecting victim of this. Like.

604
00:27:55,619 --> 00:27:58,170
S3: How wild is it that the Trump news it's, like,

605
00:27:58,170 --> 00:27:59,969
S3: certainly says something about the world we live in in

606
00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:04,500
S3: the news cycle that Trump, our former president and presidential candidate,

607
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:08,159
S3: nearly being assassinated is just like not around on news

608
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,150
S3: websites that much.

609
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:09,570
S4: Can I say.

610
00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:14,060
S1: Something controversial and don't take this as an endorsement? But like, honestly,

611
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:15,950
S1: Trump is brat. Oh.

612
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:19,490
S2: He probably is a bit more brat than Kamala.

613
00:28:19,790 --> 00:28:20,359
S4: He's been about.

614
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,850
S1: His kind of weird manic energy and just like, you know,

615
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:24,950
S1: just he keeps, you know, we talk about the Hannibal

616
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:27,470
S1: Lecter thing he's talked about. He keeps bringing up Hannibal

617
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:31,160
S1: Lecter in speeches, and he keeps describing him as the late,

618
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,880
S1: great Hannibal Lecter. Like he thinks he's a real person

619
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,890
S1: who is both good and dead when he is not real. Famously,

620
00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:41,470
S1: not a good guy. Serial killer and a murderer. And

621
00:28:41,470 --> 00:28:44,230
S1: in canon, not dead. It's one of the most perplexing

622
00:28:44,830 --> 00:28:47,470
S1: cultural overlaps with politics I've seen.

623
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:50,469
S2: He also has, like the messy hair. Like, he's like

624
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:52,360
S2: a bit of a club rat. And he's just been

625
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,060
S2: at fabric or something, been doing for 24 hours, and he, like,

626
00:28:55,060 --> 00:28:56,290
S2: wakes up and then he's a.

627
00:28:56,290 --> 00:28:58,390
S3: Bit disheveled and makeup isn't right. Yeah.

628
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,580
S2: Like, there would be some fucking brat parties at Mar

629
00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:01,270
S2: a Lago.

630
00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:03,220
S3: Oh, man, who's gonna write that piece?

631
00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:03,700
S4: Yeah.

632
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,190
S1: But I've said it. I've gone out on a limb.

633
00:29:06,190 --> 00:29:07,180
S1: I'm going to get assassinated.

634
00:29:07,180 --> 00:29:09,820
S2: I thought what you were going to say is that, like,

635
00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:12,550
S2: at this point, I almost wondered, obviously, Trump, you know,

636
00:29:12,550 --> 00:29:16,120
S2: assassination has was like very sad. We don't want that happening. And,

637
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,100
S2: you know, it's it's kind of done wonders for his

638
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:22,570
S2: like resurgence is like if Biden was to pass away

639
00:29:22,570 --> 00:29:25,380
S2: from Covid does that Trump a near assassination. Like where

640
00:29:25,380 --> 00:29:28,950
S2: do we what's the what's like what is the hierarchy of?

641
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:32,250
S1: I think the sad thing is we're just fully talking

642
00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:36,030
S1: about politics now. I think like the Biden thing is over, man.

643
00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:38,310
S1: It's like it's Kamala now. And I think if Biden died,

644
00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:40,380
S1: I don't people be like, that's sad. I think people

645
00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:42,180
S1: would move on kind of quickly and just be like,

646
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:42,870
S1: you know.

647
00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:44,910
S4: Had a good run. It's kind of like.

648
00:29:44,910 --> 00:29:47,340
S3: When someone's grandparent dies, but they're really old and they've

649
00:29:47,340 --> 00:29:48,150
S3: been really sick.

650
00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:49,610
S2: Well, he wasn't taken too soon.

651
00:29:49,610 --> 00:29:50,690
S4: Yeah. Yeah, it.

652
00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:53,420
S1: Was like the average life expectancy in America is like 78.

653
00:29:53,420 --> 00:29:57,350
S1: He's 82 or something. Like, it's kind of the most

654
00:29:57,350 --> 00:30:00,410
S1: least surprising thing that could happen. Um, yeah. How do

655
00:30:00,410 --> 00:30:02,000
S1: we eject from this conversation?

656
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:04,790
S4: Um.

657
00:30:04,910 --> 00:30:05,420
S1: All right.

658
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:09,110
S2: Let me allow me. Uh, yes. Well, look, it's all

659
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:11,930
S2: very crazy. Um, but allow me to blow you away

660
00:30:11,930 --> 00:30:14,900
S2: with something crazier. Obviously, Trump is preparing for his second

661
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:18,500
S2: tilt as the Republican nominee in 2004. He was preparing

662
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:21,860
S2: for his very first season as host of The Apprentice.

663
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:24,890
S2: In some ways, the beginning of his kind of rise

664
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:27,740
S2: to power. That show kind of like blasted him into

665
00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:30,110
S2: wider culture. And then he obviously found a career in politics.

666
00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:32,150
S2: But you know what also happened in 2004? Osman.

667
00:30:35,210 --> 00:30:37,990
S1: What was a big year for Premiere Television. It was

668
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:41,830
S1: when a show about four guys from New York who

669
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:44,709
S1: moved to LA to make it big first premiered. It's

670
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:49,150
S1: been 20 years since entourage was released. People say Sopranos

671
00:30:49,150 --> 00:30:53,260
S1: changed television. Men? No, it was older men. Men were

672
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:55,750
S1: killing it on HBO in that year, like women had

673
00:30:55,750 --> 00:31:00,010
S1: sex in the city. We had Sopranos, The Wire, entourage, like,

674
00:31:00,220 --> 00:31:02,970
S1: Take me Back, man. No wonder people voting for Trump like,

675
00:31:02,970 --> 00:31:05,220
S1: make fucking HBO great again. It's crazy.

676
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:05,670
S4: I know.

677
00:31:05,670 --> 00:31:07,830
S3: It's why you guys keep calling it the golden age

678
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:10,260
S3: of television. I keep telling you, it wasn't.

679
00:31:10,770 --> 00:31:11,190
S4: The.

680
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:12,720
S2: Golden balls of television.

681
00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:17,250
S1: It was, and remains, I think, a pretty divisive show

682
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:19,980
S1: in terms of whether you're an entourage head or you

683
00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:21,959
S1: really hate it. It has a lot of fans, and

684
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,840
S1: I think both for the kind of fantasy elements of

685
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,350
S1: just watching a bunch of rich guys have fun in L.A. uh,

686
00:31:28,350 --> 00:31:30,840
S1: and also, you know, like it's a satire on Hollywood

687
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,930
S1: and movies and the whole, you know, cult of celebrity

688
00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:36,660
S1: in that kind of peak 2000 era as well, but

689
00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:40,410
S1: has faced a lot of very fair criticism for the sexism,

690
00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:44,459
S1: homophobia and racism that is imbued, I guess, in the

691
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:47,370
S1: DNA of the show itself. Uh, before we kind of

692
00:31:47,370 --> 00:31:50,030
S1: unpack this show and talk about like, why it was

693
00:31:50,030 --> 00:31:53,420
S1: such a phenomenon, its legacy, what worked, what didn't, why

694
00:31:53,420 --> 00:31:55,400
S1: it is so divisive. I want to ask you guys

695
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,830
S1: about your relationship to it. Mel, first up, what is

696
00:32:00,830 --> 00:32:02,330
S1: your history with entourage?

697
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:03,890
S3: Well, I've been lucky. I've been able to go the

698
00:32:03,890 --> 00:32:08,090
S3: last 20 years without watching it. Um, but I actually,

699
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:09,530
S3: I kind of think of it, you know, how in

700
00:32:09,530 --> 00:32:13,490
S3: Barbie there's that really great montage where men are playing

701
00:32:13,510 --> 00:32:17,350
S3: Matchbox 20 push, and they're talking about The Godfather. I

702
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:20,590
S3: would put entourage, like, you could have subbed entourage into

703
00:32:20,590 --> 00:32:23,260
S3: that and it would have worked. But in saying that

704
00:32:23,260 --> 00:32:27,370
S3: a lot of smart, sensible, sensitive men in my life

705
00:32:27,370 --> 00:32:31,780
S3: have enjoyed entourage. And so for me that is interesting, um,

706
00:32:31,780 --> 00:32:35,950
S3: and worth my consideration. So I have gone back in

707
00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:38,320
S3: preparation for this pod, and I watched the first kind

708
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,740
S3: of five episodes, and then I watched some scattered episodes

709
00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:44,110
S3: that have had a lot of, um, a lot of

710
00:32:44,110 --> 00:32:47,860
S3: discussion about them or a kind of pinch pinch hitter episodes.

711
00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:50,170
S3: So obviously I feel like I'm not going to be

712
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:53,800
S3: able to fully understand and appreciate the character arcs that

713
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,670
S3: these characters definitely don't go on. But, um, yeah, I'm

714
00:32:57,670 --> 00:33:00,010
S3: excited to talk more about it, and maybe to bring

715
00:33:00,010 --> 00:33:02,520
S3: a perspective of someone watching it for the first time

716
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,700
S3: in this context versus I imagine you guys were hot

717
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,430
S3: into it when you were when you were in your youth.

718
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:10,770
S1: Thomas, what do you reckon? Were you hot into it

719
00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:13,140
S1: in your youth? What's your what's your relationship with this show?

720
00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:17,820
S2: Uh, I had all the entourage DVDs. Yeah. I mean, look, man, like,

721
00:33:18,180 --> 00:33:20,459
S2: in the least surprising news of all time for anyone

722
00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:22,830
S2: that listens to this podcast. I mean, you and I

723
00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:25,200
S2: were both. We couldn't have been more bang in the demo. Really? Like,

724
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,490
S2: it came out when I was like, what, 1415? Like,

725
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,459
S2: you know, there was no there was no 15 year

726
00:33:31,460 --> 00:33:34,880
S2: old version of me that escaped entourage. Um, and and

727
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,740
S2: the same thing with all my friends, like, you know,

728
00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:38,870
S2: it was almost like probably one of the like I

729
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:42,080
S2: loved Sopranos and stuff, but that was it felt like a,

730
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,239
S2: you know, it's a different show for me. Like, I

731
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,040
S2: loved it. I probably didn't fully understand it. Whereas entourage

732
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,480
S2: was like there for me to really, like, take in. Um, yeah.

733
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,500
S2: And it's funny, like, everyone's relationship, I think, with the

734
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:57,050
S2: show has changed a lot. Um, in, in the 20

735
00:33:57,050 --> 00:34:00,469
S2: years since it premiered, especially because the show finished in 2011.

736
00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:03,320
S2: But then the movie came out in 2015, and the movie,

737
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,990
S2: I think, was a good way for lots of people

738
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:07,489
S2: who grew up with the show, like me and you

739
00:34:07,490 --> 00:34:11,509
S2: probably Osmond, to like to realize that this show had like,

740
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:15,520
S2: was a little bit crazy and probably had some big

741
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,200
S2: problems because it kind of the movie like.

742
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:18,850
S1: Passed its expiry date by then.

743
00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:21,490
S2: Exactly. Yeah. And then we kind of cut forward another

744
00:34:21,489 --> 00:34:24,070
S2: ten years to now and it's 20 years. And you know,

745
00:34:24,070 --> 00:34:26,590
S2: like obviously the legacy is a funny thing. These anniversaries

746
00:34:26,590 --> 00:34:28,540
S2: like you're forced to like reflect on what did the

747
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:32,290
S2: show mean and stuff. But like yeah, I find myself

748
00:34:32,290 --> 00:34:35,259
S2: in conversations like not wanting to defend entourage because I'm

749
00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:37,750
S2: fully aware of like all of its downfalls. But I

750
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:39,900
S2: do think there are certain parts of it that have

751
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:43,410
S2: become like it was. 2004 was a fucking weird time.

752
00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:45,900
S2: It was a it was a dumb show written by

753
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:48,180
S2: a guy who was basically writing about his life experience. Like,

754
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:50,220
S2: what did we expect it to be?

755
00:35:00,390 --> 00:35:04,129
S1: My experience is is pretty similar to to yours. I

756
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:06,440
S1: think the only thing I'd add is that every time

757
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,240
S1: I do a rewatch and I do one every couple

758
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,370
S1: of years, I did one last year. I'm sort of

759
00:35:10,370 --> 00:35:14,150
S1: surprised by like, and maybe because my memories and expectations

760
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:16,640
S1: of its politics and stuff are so low, I'm kind

761
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,060
S1: of surprised by the quality of the writing and, and

762
00:35:20,060 --> 00:35:24,230
S1: some of the acting and some of the storylines and. Yeah, look, look,

763
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:25,730
S1: I think a lot of people, you know, a lot

764
00:35:25,730 --> 00:35:27,620
S1: of people talk about the misogyny inherent in the show

765
00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:29,420
S1: and it's like fair to say that there are very

766
00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:33,169
S1: few women characters who have anything in the show other

767
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:35,120
S1: than just like they're hot models that the guys want

768
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,400
S1: to have sex with. They're like, obviously a few women

769
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,200
S1: characters that are a bit more fleshed, a bit more interesting,

770
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,630
S1: but there's so many episodes where like that stuff actually

771
00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:43,880
S1: is not really part of the show. I think a

772
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,710
S1: lot of people haven't seen the show, think it's like

773
00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:49,040
S1: every episode it's like which smoking hot perfect ten model

774
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,430
S1: Will Vince and the gang hang out with? And that

775
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:53,380
S1: does happen. I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't

776
00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:55,660
S1: an element of that there, but a lot of it

777
00:35:55,660 --> 00:35:59,080
S1: is like an increasingly, especially the first half of the show,

778
00:35:59,110 --> 00:36:01,990
S1: the first four seasons and seasons two, three, four, where

779
00:36:01,989 --> 00:36:05,020
S1: it's about, you know, Vince trying to get in median

780
00:36:05,020 --> 00:36:07,239
S1: and these stories about Hollywood or whatever the the kind

781
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,910
S1: of sexism of the show fades a little bit into

782
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:11,890
S1: the background and you're like, oh, there's a reason why

783
00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:15,960
S1: this show was interesting, compelling. It wasn't just softcore pornography.

784
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,960
S1: I think the bits that really stand out to me

785
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,770
S1: are like the, the homophobia and and racism particularly directed

786
00:36:22,770 --> 00:36:25,770
S1: from Ari Gold to his assistant, Lloyd. I mean, Ari

787
00:36:25,770 --> 00:36:28,140
S1: Gold is one of the funniest characters. He's also a

788
00:36:28,140 --> 00:36:32,100
S1: bad person. So he says this stuff. It's not necessarily

789
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:36,930
S1: the show endorsing homophobia and racism, but he's never really

790
00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:40,359
S1: subject to backlash for it, you know? And then it

791
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,580
S1: does happen a bit. And you do get these these

792
00:36:42,580 --> 00:36:44,800
S1: moments where he's challenged, but it always comes back to, like,

793
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,050
S1: Lloyd ultimately loves him, even though he is one of

794
00:36:47,050 --> 00:36:48,850
S1: the worst people to him in the world. So that

795
00:36:48,850 --> 00:36:52,510
S1: is my attempt to try to like put not not

796
00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:54,820
S1: not defend the politics of the show, but to say

797
00:36:54,820 --> 00:36:57,310
S1: that there are there's a lot of it that goes

798
00:36:57,310 --> 00:37:00,430
S1: beyond those kinds of issues and makes it something interesting

799
00:37:00,430 --> 00:37:03,040
S1: to still watch now and interesting to still talk about now.

800
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,570
S3: Yeah, I agree. And I think like, yeah, it's very

801
00:37:05,570 --> 00:37:08,600
S3: easy to be like it was a silly show. It

802
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,610
S3: was the kind of Emily in Paris of its day.

803
00:37:10,610 --> 00:37:13,790
S3: It was something you could watch and just take on

804
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:16,100
S3: surface level. Like it's very easy to say that. But

805
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:20,330
S3: the thing is, that show was so immensely popular and so, um,

806
00:37:20,330 --> 00:37:23,839
S3: had such wide reach that it is worthy to consider

807
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,290
S3: what the fantasy was that people were so interested in. Like,

808
00:37:27,290 --> 00:37:29,589
S3: I'm not saying. And in this discussion, like, I don't

809
00:37:29,590 --> 00:37:32,529
S3: think the show is pretending to be anything other than

810
00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:36,040
S3: what it is. But I think the discussion point is,

811
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,129
S3: why did so many people connect with that idea? And

812
00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:41,590
S3: what does that say about us collectively?

813
00:37:41,590 --> 00:37:43,600
S1: Definitely. It's a really good point. I mean, like very quickly,

814
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,940
S1: for anyone who's totally unfamiliar with it's like loosely based

815
00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:49,600
S1: on Mark Wahlberg's real life, his crew moving to LA

816
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,750
S1: when he was in the 90s, navigating Hollywood, working their

817
00:37:52,750 --> 00:37:55,060
S1: way up run ins him and his crew have with

818
00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:58,660
S1: studio execs, with other celebrities, with other actors. Every episode

819
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:01,360
S1: is kind of standalone. There are some season wide arcs about,

820
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,310
S1: you know, movies and things that they're trying to get into.

821
00:38:03,310 --> 00:38:06,940
S1: A lot of celebrities make cameos. James Cameron famously like,

822
00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:10,780
S1: is trying to make a, uh, superhero movie called Aquaman

823
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,360
S1: at a time when everyone was like, are superhero movies

824
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,609
S1: good luck man. And now they're so dominant. There's even

825
00:38:15,610 --> 00:38:18,899
S1: like a movie called Ferrari that's in the film. There's

826
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:22,920
S1: a Gatsby film. All these movies happen before their equivalents

827
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,230
S1: in real life. And honestly, for me, when I was

828
00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:27,810
S1: thinking about this conversation, I was like, did I really

829
00:38:27,810 --> 00:38:31,530
S1: fall in love with, like, cinema and Hollywood and the

830
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:34,140
S1: art of like, you know, making these things and caring

831
00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:37,230
S1: about producers and studios through entourage. And I reckon I

832
00:38:37,230 --> 00:38:39,210
S1: probably did. I reckon I learnt a lot of the

833
00:38:39,210 --> 00:38:41,780
S1: language and the stories and the details of this stuff.

834
00:38:41,780 --> 00:38:44,719
S1: Watching the show, that made it seem really interesting and

835
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,450
S1: dynamic and weird and actually wanting to learn more about it.

836
00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:49,490
S1: I don't know if either of you guys can can

837
00:38:49,489 --> 00:38:50,330
S1: relate to that.

838
00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:53,060
S3: Yeah, I that for me that is by far the

839
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:56,000
S3: best part of the show is the Hollywood element of it,

840
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,580
S3: and it's the insider stuff. One of the episodes I watched,

841
00:38:58,730 --> 00:39:01,670
S3: which was really good, was everyone stressing about whether the

842
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:04,320
S3: film would have a bigger opening day than was it Spider-Man,

843
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,049
S3: I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was all

844
00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:08,880
S3: of that stuff. It was the role of the agents,

845
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,450
S3: the film choices, the pressure from producers, the the publicists,

846
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:15,330
S3: the kind of mechanics of the industry that I found

847
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:18,090
S3: most interesting and was by far the best part of

848
00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:19,469
S3: the show and the part that I think has stood

849
00:39:19,469 --> 00:39:21,450
S3: the test of time, only because a lot of it

850
00:39:21,450 --> 00:39:24,270
S3: is strangely prescient of films that did get made of

851
00:39:24,270 --> 00:39:26,339
S3: things that have happened in the industry.

852
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:29,360
S2: Yeah, I think like, I mean, I think keeping in

853
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,090
S2: mind this is 2004, like before we fully were like

854
00:39:32,090 --> 00:39:35,420
S2: in the stranglehold of reality TV. And like Doug Ellin,

855
00:39:35,420 --> 00:39:37,880
S2: the creator, tells this story so regularly about how, like

856
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,070
S2: so many people, when the show started, thought it was

857
00:39:40,070 --> 00:39:42,290
S2: a there were real people like thought it was a

858
00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:45,170
S2: I thought he was like, this was a documentary. Um,

859
00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:48,500
S2: because like, you know, we have a genuine appetite for

860
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:51,170
S2: that stuff now more than ever. Like, you know, if entourage,

861
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,370
S2: if entourage was to be made in 2024, it would

862
00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:56,070
S2: probably just be a fly on the wall following. Like,

863
00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:58,650
S2: I don't know, Timothée Chalamet as he visits a bunch

864
00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:02,250
S2: of boulangeries or whatever, but like, I think that's how.

865
00:40:02,250 --> 00:40:03,089
S3: Far we've come.

866
00:40:03,090 --> 00:40:05,550
S2: Yeah, yeah, I think it would be so boring. I'd

867
00:40:05,550 --> 00:40:07,740
S2: much rather watch the Vincent Chase one. Um, but like,

868
00:40:07,739 --> 00:40:11,400
S2: I think, you know, the voyeuristic element was a huge

869
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,890
S2: part of what made it so good. You know, people

870
00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:17,700
S2: love to peek behind the curtain of anything but especially Hollywood, this,

871
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:20,430
S2: you know, huge system that we're all like, you know,

872
00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:22,830
S2: know so much about. And, you know, we watch the

873
00:40:22,830 --> 00:40:24,600
S2: movies and stuff. But to figure out, like, what does

874
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,850
S2: a movie star do, like on a Tuesday afternoon like

875
00:40:26,850 --> 00:40:29,850
S2: that shit is interesting. And that's why I do think, like,

876
00:40:29,850 --> 00:40:33,120
S2: you know, the the kind of revisionist history of entourage

877
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,670
S2: and the very, like, fair criticisms of it, you know, the,

878
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:37,830
S2: the fact that it does have like all it's like,

879
00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:40,880
S2: you know, there's lots of misogyny. It is really racist. Like,

880
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,510
S2: but the, the criticism that has become so loud that

881
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:46,580
S2: it's like reduced the rest of the show to like, oh,

882
00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:48,470
S2: it didn't really offer anything. Whereas like, I don't think

883
00:40:48,469 --> 00:40:49,279
S2: that is true.

884
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,150
S1: Yeah. And I think really smart in terms of that reality. Uh,

885
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:56,299
S1: like what's real, what's drama. The show leaned into that

886
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,330
S1: like it had real actors like Mandy Moore play fictionalized

887
00:40:59,330 --> 00:41:02,089
S1: versions of themselves. And so you really felt like you

888
00:41:02,090 --> 00:41:04,689
S1: were getting a peek into how it works. Fuck knows

889
00:41:04,690 --> 00:41:07,210
S1: if that's actually the case. I mean, in that vein, also,

890
00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:10,569
S1: there was a character who was a very wealthy and

891
00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:14,230
S1: powerful film producer who went to Sundance and threatened people

892
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:16,570
S1: a lot and was very aggressive and quite large, and

893
00:41:16,570 --> 00:41:19,989
S1: his name was Harvey Weingard in the show, and it

894
00:41:19,989 --> 00:41:22,870
S1: was obviously a reference to Harvey Weinstein. It was one

895
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:26,320
S1: of the first pop culture kind of statements that this

896
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,280
S1: guy exists and he's a monster Decade before the kind

897
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,089
S1: of revelations in the in the Times and the MeToo movement.

898
00:41:34,090 --> 00:41:36,219
S1: So the show was very knowing about a lot of

899
00:41:36,219 --> 00:41:38,799
S1: this stuff. On the kind of the other side. A

900
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,870
S1: lot of the reasons why I like the show was

901
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:44,350
S1: great party scenes, great soundtrack, a lot of stuff about

902
00:41:44,350 --> 00:41:46,450
S1: dudes just like hanging out. And I think when you're

903
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:49,900
S1: a teenager, you're like, is this what being a man is?

904
00:41:49,930 --> 00:41:51,340
S1: And I think this is this is one of the

905
00:41:51,340 --> 00:41:53,820
S1: bits of the show that I can't really reconcile. And

906
00:41:53,820 --> 00:41:55,950
S1: it's not really the show's fault that a bunch of

907
00:41:55,950 --> 00:41:59,910
S1: people our age, Thomas More teenagers, watched it and were like, well,

908
00:41:59,910 --> 00:42:04,319
S1: you know, this this feels more, uh, aspirational, aspirational to

909
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,980
S1: me than like, The Wire, The Sopranos. Um, my dream

910
00:42:07,980 --> 00:42:09,600
S1: is to just get enough money and, like, smoke weed

911
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,300
S1: with my friends, go to basketball games, get front row,

912
00:42:12,330 --> 00:42:15,000
S1: you know, seats and just hang out that that was

913
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,480
S1: what I thought peak being a dude was.

914
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,610
S3: Yeah. And this is I was saying this the other day, like,

915
00:42:19,610 --> 00:42:23,299
S3: I think everyone or dudes watch that show and thought

916
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:25,190
S3: they wanted to be Vince when all of them were

917
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:28,400
S3: being turtle at the time, like, that's who they were.

918
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,489
S3: And Vince was aspirational. I mean, I don't you're kind

919
00:42:31,489 --> 00:42:35,989
S3: of very gracefully sidestepping the element of how these men

920
00:42:35,989 --> 00:42:40,670
S3: treat women as being also kind of potentially aspirational. You know,

921
00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:45,010
S3: the show presenting that as that's what men are like. Um,

922
00:42:45,010 --> 00:42:47,410
S3: I mean, I think that argument and you do see

923
00:42:47,410 --> 00:42:49,299
S3: it a lot in defense of this, that the show

924
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:54,879
S3: is about male friendship is like wrong and kind of silly. Like,

925
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,640
S3: I think that's a silly argument or like it's an

926
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,640
S3: argument that doesn't take into account what that male friendship

927
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,529
S3: is like. It's about I was thinking of, you know,

928
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,140
S3: Leo's pussy posse. Like, we'd never say that. That was

929
00:43:05,140 --> 00:43:09,009
S3: male friendship. Like, that's if you really think about what

930
00:43:09,010 --> 00:43:13,210
S3: bonds these men. It's money, power and women. That's their currency.

931
00:43:13,210 --> 00:43:15,520
S3: That's what the friendship and the status in the group

932
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,790
S3: is based on. That is the codified behavior that creates

933
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:19,390
S3: their friendship.

934
00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:19,960
S1: Power, baby.

935
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:20,590
S4: Yeah. What's the issue?

936
00:43:20,590 --> 00:43:22,510
S3: That's it. Like. And yeah, you can have issues about that.

937
00:43:22,510 --> 00:43:23,890
S3: But I don't know, like if you can make the

938
00:43:23,890 --> 00:43:26,500
S3: case that the show says anything deeper about friendship other

939
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:28,240
S3: than what I've just said, that in that.

940
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,089
S1: No, look, I agree with you. I don't think it

941
00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:31,650
S1: actually does. And even when I was writing my notes

942
00:43:31,650 --> 00:43:33,270
S1: on this, I was like, oh, it's about friendship. And

943
00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:35,160
S1: I thought about it and I'm like, what does that

944
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,590
S1: have to say about it? But here's the thing, right?

945
00:43:37,590 --> 00:43:40,739
S1: I'm keen on your thoughts on this, Thomas. You're right, Mel,

946
00:43:40,739 --> 00:43:43,680
S1: that it doesn't go beyond that. But what there weren't

947
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,980
S1: really a lot of shows that just portrayed what it

948
00:43:46,980 --> 00:43:49,950
S1: means to be a guy. Like, you're having issues with

949
00:43:49,950 --> 00:43:51,840
S1: your girlfriend and you talk to your friends about it,

950
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,480
S1: you're having issues with your job, and you talk to

951
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,330
S1: your friends about it. They didn't talk about it particularly well.

952
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,990
S1: It wasn't like deep insight into the nature of, like

953
00:43:59,989 --> 00:44:03,950
S1: how to navigate relationships and your career. Really. Like not

954
00:44:03,950 --> 00:44:06,020
S1: a lot of TV shows were like men were talking

955
00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:08,870
S1: about stuff in the mid 2000. I was just trying

956
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:11,660
S1: to say it's more more relatable and accurate issues than

957
00:44:11,660 --> 00:44:15,590
S1: like Tony Soprano talking to Uncle June about the Rico act,

958
00:44:15,590 --> 00:44:16,040
S1: you know?

959
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,870
S2: Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of I kind of agree.

960
00:44:21,870 --> 00:44:23,760
S2: I mean, like, I don't I think it, you know,

961
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:26,400
S2: of course that was how it was framed as a

962
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,170
S2: show about male friendship. And I do think, like a

963
00:44:28,170 --> 00:44:30,239
S2: lot of the people around the show have done a

964
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,060
S2: lot of, like, hard work in the, you know, time

965
00:44:33,060 --> 00:44:35,190
S2: since it finished and they've kind of been reading the

966
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:36,960
S2: room on what people think of the show and they've been,

967
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,310
S2: you know, trying to be like, no, it was always

968
00:44:38,310 --> 00:44:40,620
S2: about male friendship. Like, I appreciate all that. I do

969
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:43,060
S2: think that, like, I kind of agree, like, you know,

970
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:46,330
S2: not to play a game of comparisons, but like sex

971
00:44:46,330 --> 00:44:48,129
S2: and the city is the obvious comparison in that it was.

972
00:44:48,130 --> 00:44:52,360
S2: So it finished right before entourage started, I think. And

973
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,460
S2: that's obviously, you know, often entourage was called like the

974
00:44:54,460 --> 00:44:57,220
S2: male version of sex and the city. But like, you know,

975
00:44:57,580 --> 00:45:00,970
S2: there that version of friendship, like, Carrie is famously the

976
00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:04,150
S2: worst friend in the world. Like, I think there are.

977
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:05,760
S2: I mean, you know, you've only seen a few episodes,

978
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,000
S2: but there is a lot in this show that like

979
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,969
S2: that bonds them. Aside from like getting fucked up and

980
00:45:11,969 --> 00:45:14,640
S2: having sex and stuff like you have like, you know,

981
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,240
S2: Johnny constantly kind of being the the fact that he's

982
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,130
S2: just like the punch line for him is that he

983
00:45:20,130 --> 00:45:23,460
S2: can't quite achieve anything, but like, they really, like deal

984
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:25,859
S2: with shit like that. Like, I do think that the

985
00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:28,830
S2: standard may be low for like TV shows exploring or

986
00:45:28,830 --> 00:45:31,860
S2: really like interrogating male friendship? I think this show tried

987
00:45:31,860 --> 00:45:32,459
S2: to do it.

988
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:33,540
S3: Nah, I don't think so.

989
00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:34,560
S4: No, I think so.

990
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,750
S1: I mean like is it is is is Carrie telling

991
00:45:36,750 --> 00:45:39,390
S1: her friends she would never have sex with the bisexual man?

992
00:45:39,390 --> 00:45:43,170
S1: You know better or worse than EA helping Vin navigate

993
00:45:43,170 --> 00:45:44,790
S1: like a professional crisis.

994
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:45,330
S4: I think it's the.

995
00:45:45,330 --> 00:45:47,940
S3: Level of engagement. Like, I guess there are two things. Like,

996
00:45:47,940 --> 00:45:50,070
S3: if we're talking about what this show says about friendships,

997
00:45:50,070 --> 00:45:53,069
S3: obviously the friendships in sex and the city are more

998
00:45:53,070 --> 00:45:56,720
S3: intensely examined, like those dynamics are way more complicated. And

999
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,870
S3: when they're talking about sex, it's brought to the table

1000
00:45:59,870 --> 00:46:02,360
S3: for discussion. Whereas I think in this show, it's like

1001
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,630
S3: the throwaway line of virgins are too much responsibility. Or

1002
00:46:05,630 --> 00:46:07,550
S3: have you ever fucked a girl on it, period. Like,

1003
00:46:07,550 --> 00:46:11,060
S3: that's not a kind of interesting or developed discussion. And

1004
00:46:11,060 --> 00:46:14,779
S3: it doesn't have to be. And they're there questions. But like,

1005
00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:17,390
S3: I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't it's

1006
00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:23,330
S3: not attempting to be men seriously unpacking relations with women.

1007
00:46:23,330 --> 00:46:25,279
S3: It's not intending to be that. And I don't think

1008
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,649
S3: it does do that. Um, so yeah, I don't really

1009
00:46:27,650 --> 00:46:31,550
S3: buy the argument that it's like an insightful way of discussing.

1010
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:33,740
S1: No, I think we're actually probably more in agreement on

1011
00:46:33,739 --> 00:46:35,660
S1: this one than in disagreement, because I also don't think

1012
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:38,060
S1: it is like, you know, the holy grail of like,

1013
00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:40,190
S1: good conversation. I'm just trying to say that there was

1014
00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:43,520
S1: so few of those things happening in television that it

1015
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,590
S1: actually is a bit like, oh, wow, men are talking

1016
00:46:45,590 --> 00:46:48,290
S1: about like any like, the bar is so low here

1017
00:46:48,290 --> 00:46:51,109
S1: that just men talking about anything to do with their lives,

1018
00:46:51,110 --> 00:46:55,130
S1: their families, sex existed. And I'm like, I'm not trying

1019
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:58,610
S1: to say that like, men are underrepresented or were underrepresented

1020
00:46:58,610 --> 00:47:02,149
S1: in television, but it is kind of stark to think

1021
00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:07,469
S1: that what other dramas that existed before entourage of groups

1022
00:47:07,469 --> 00:47:12,600
S1: of men existing together and talking about things that aren't teenage, like,

1023
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,960
S1: you know, Nano 2.0 or the OC, that sort of

1024
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,600
S1: stuff that was very like in high school stuff for

1025
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,660
S1: people in that kind of like 20s. I don't know

1026
00:47:21,660 --> 00:47:24,270
S1: what that show was. And certainly by the time Thomas

1027
00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:26,100
S1: and I were teenagers, I don't know what that show

1028
00:47:26,130 --> 00:47:27,030
S1: was that was on.

1029
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:28,950
S3: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, sex and

1030
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:31,549
S3: the city made an impact in the same way, in

1031
00:47:31,550 --> 00:47:34,489
S3: the sense that it was an avenue to show women

1032
00:47:34,489 --> 00:47:37,100
S3: on TV talking about their issues. I mean, I do.

1033
00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:39,080
S3: I know you keep saying you couldn't relate to Sopranos,

1034
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,870
S3: but I do think that Mr. Soprano is a far

1035
00:47:41,870 --> 00:47:46,730
S3: more relatable male than anyone in this show. No respect.

1036
00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:50,030
S3: Like he struggles with his role in the family.

1037
00:47:50,030 --> 00:47:51,980
S4: And the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah,

1038
00:47:51,980 --> 00:47:53,540
S4: I fucking get this shit. But like.

1039
00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:56,900
S3: It's a far more relatable presentation of what it is

1040
00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:59,299
S3: to be human. This is fantasy and that's fine. Like,

1041
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:01,460
S3: I think we just need to be like, it is fantasy.

1042
00:48:01,460 --> 00:48:05,450
S3: It is a projection. It is. It's the cinema of desire.

1043
00:48:05,450 --> 00:48:07,969
S3: If we want to get Freudian on it like it's just.

1044
00:48:07,969 --> 00:48:10,370
S2: Fantasy, it is fantasy. But the dynamic between those four

1045
00:48:10,370 --> 00:48:14,359
S2: guys like for better or worse, definitely like because essentially

1046
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,190
S2: they're like, they've all got like Arrested Development, they're basically

1047
00:48:16,190 --> 00:48:17,720
S2: high schoolers. The dynamic between to.

1048
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,620
S1: Tell you, Mel, when four guys get together, that's what they.

1049
00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:20,920
S4: Talk about.

1050
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,620
S2: It's very similar to how like people interact, like in

1051
00:48:23,620 --> 00:48:25,089
S2: high school, like how and like, you know, there's always

1052
00:48:25,090 --> 00:48:27,040
S2: someone trying to be the big dog. Everyone's taking the

1053
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,500
S2: piss out of each other like that. That's not like like,

1054
00:48:29,710 --> 00:48:31,510
S2: I'm sorry to say, my group of friends was a

1055
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:34,569
S2: lot more like that than, like, fucking Sal and Tony

1056
00:48:34,570 --> 00:48:36,760
S2: and Christopher sitting at fucking Satriale's.

1057
00:48:36,910 --> 00:48:38,049
S3: Though you did eat a lot of ham.

1058
00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:38,710
S4: Yeah. I mean.

1059
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:40,150
S2: Yeah, we had the cured meats, but that was where

1060
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:40,660
S2: I stopped.

1061
00:48:41,469 --> 00:48:45,240
S1: There's a problem with, um, problem with modern society is that, uh,

1062
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,430
S1: a lot of women of a certain age grow up

1063
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:49,500
S1: watching sex in the city and thought that's what they

1064
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:52,260
S1: should emulate. A lot of men grew up watching entourage.

1065
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,230
S1: That's what they should emulate. Everyone in politics and media

1066
00:48:55,230 --> 00:48:57,090
S1: watched The fucking West Wing and thought that's what they

1067
00:48:57,090 --> 00:49:00,450
S1: should emulate. We're all kind of like breaking the world

1068
00:49:00,450 --> 00:49:03,570
S1: because we were raised by kind of weird and kind

1069
00:49:03,570 --> 00:49:05,250
S1: of fucked up HBO shows.

1070
00:49:05,250 --> 00:49:08,190
S3: Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's probably true. And that's

1071
00:49:08,190 --> 00:49:11,340
S3: why I always think that, like, it's good to discuss

1072
00:49:11,340 --> 00:49:13,379
S3: these shows and their meaning, even if it's not like

1073
00:49:13,380 --> 00:49:15,480
S3: what the show is intending to do and like. It's

1074
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,760
S3: not about the expectation of the show, but it did

1075
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,800
S3: influence so many people. And the type of men and

1076
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,290
S3: women we have today are a result of pop culture,

1077
00:49:22,290 --> 00:49:23,760
S3: and it's why culture is so important. Yeah, that's.

1078
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,529
S1: Why it's so interesting, because we can all acknowledge the

1079
00:49:25,530 --> 00:49:27,870
S1: limits as to how good or bad it was. But

1080
00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:31,880
S1: the reality was it did influence human beings in terms

1081
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,610
S1: of their thinking and approach to stuff. Thomas, you spoke

1082
00:49:34,610 --> 00:49:38,090
S1: to Doug Ellin, the creator of the show. What did

1083
00:49:38,090 --> 00:49:41,359
S1: you learn from him about entourage during the time and

1084
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:42,170
S1: its legacy?

1085
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,660
S2: Um, I think he has a complicated relationship with the legacy. Uh, he,

1086
00:49:48,110 --> 00:49:52,100
S2: you know, especially like, you know, the 20th anniversary was

1087
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:55,420
S2: just last week. Um, HBO, like, maybe put up a

1088
00:49:55,420 --> 00:50:00,009
S2: single Instagram post, um, to celebrate it. And, you know, like,

1089
00:50:00,010 --> 00:50:02,980
S2: it's fair to say that had this been the 20th

1090
00:50:02,980 --> 00:50:05,950
S2: anniversary of sex and the city, it would have been

1091
00:50:05,950 --> 00:50:09,250
S2: a much bigger deal. Um, so he is very much,

1092
00:50:09,250 --> 00:50:11,350
S2: I would say, like a bit defensive about what's happened

1093
00:50:11,350 --> 00:50:14,109
S2: to the show. Um, especially like his relationship with HBO

1094
00:50:14,110 --> 00:50:17,260
S2: has disintegrated a lot, and he thinks they basically have

1095
00:50:17,260 --> 00:50:20,610
S2: tried to distance themselves. Um, and I do think, you know,

1096
00:50:20,730 --> 00:50:22,830
S2: in some ways I try to understand where he was

1097
00:50:22,830 --> 00:50:24,840
S2: coming from. Like, I think he really is just like

1098
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,920
S2: it was 2004, you know, like, this was what I knew. I,

1099
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,810
S2: you know, this was my life. I spoke to Mark Wahlberg.

1100
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:33,419
S2: We wrote a fun show like that was it. And

1101
00:50:33,420 --> 00:50:35,759
S2: now he's like, kind of frantically trying to figure out

1102
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,120
S2: what's happened to his show. And, you know, like, not

1103
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,160
S2: that we need to feel bad for Doug Ellin. At

1104
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,589
S2: the same time, he is doing a lot of like,

1105
00:50:43,590 --> 00:50:45,540
S2: you know, overtime trying to be like, nah, it was

1106
00:50:45,540 --> 00:50:48,270
S2: all 100%. All of it was satire.

1107
00:50:48,270 --> 00:50:49,170
S4: Yeah. And it's like.

1108
00:50:49,170 --> 00:50:49,830
S2: You know, look, man.

1109
00:50:49,830 --> 00:50:52,350
S1: I it was a comment on how like, Ari was

1110
00:50:52,350 --> 00:50:53,489
S1: a racist or whatever.

1111
00:50:53,489 --> 00:50:55,470
S2: Yes. And I was like, look, man, I love the show,

1112
00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:57,089
S2: you know, at the time and stuff. And I still

1113
00:50:57,090 --> 00:50:59,969
S2: enjoy watching it, but like, you know, all of them

1114
00:50:59,969 --> 00:51:01,529
S2: fucking all these girls all the time is not like a,

1115
00:51:01,530 --> 00:51:03,870
S2: you know, biting satire on, you know, the power of

1116
00:51:03,870 --> 00:51:06,000
S2: fame and being a famous actor. Like, sometimes you were

1117
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:07,850
S2: just doing it because it was like fun shit to

1118
00:51:07,850 --> 00:51:09,739
S2: film and you knew that your audience would absolutely lap

1119
00:51:09,739 --> 00:51:10,069
S2: it up.

1120
00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:12,890
S3: Yeah. And I kind of get his like, I get.

1121
00:51:12,890 --> 00:51:16,759
S3: I imagine no creator ever wants to make something that

1122
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,700
S3: is so dated. And not only a career not only

1123
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:22,729
S3: makes something that is so of its time, but is

1124
00:51:22,730 --> 00:51:28,100
S3: so now retrospectively often shorthand for like a red flag. Um, yeah.

1125
00:51:28,100 --> 00:51:29,870
S3: So I kind of get why he is on the

1126
00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:30,710
S3: defensive about it.

1127
00:51:30,739 --> 00:51:30,890
S4: I mean.

1128
00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:32,650
S1: In 20 years now, when people talk about the anniversary

1129
00:51:32,650 --> 00:51:34,630
S1: of this podcast will be claiming, oh, no, no, that

1130
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:36,130
S1: was all satire. Don't worry about it, guys.

1131
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:38,650
S3: I already used that excuse.

1132
00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:39,670
S4: Yes.

1133
00:51:39,670 --> 00:51:42,040
S2: So I thought that was interesting. Um, and then basically

1134
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,719
S2: he just kind of like, does a lot of podcasts

1135
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:45,489
S2: now plays a lot of pickleball.

1136
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:47,680
S3: Um, did he ever make anything again?

1137
00:51:47,860 --> 00:51:52,419
S2: Well, no. So he's kind of, uh, like, no is

1138
00:51:52,420 --> 00:51:56,200
S2: the answer. He's basically got a pilot, um, featuring Charlie

1139
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,379
S2: and Martin Sheen, uh, and a bunch of the guys

1140
00:51:59,380 --> 00:52:03,070
S2: from entourage, but it hasn't been able to get finance yet. So, yeah,

1141
00:52:03,070 --> 00:52:04,660
S2: he kind of, I guess he just he kind of

1142
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:06,400
S2: talks about his experiences in the industry in this new

1143
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,790
S2: podcast he has. But yeah, he definitely has been impacted,

1144
00:52:09,790 --> 00:52:13,719
S2: I think, a lot by the the response to entourage

1145
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,940
S2: probably beginning, I think, with the movie which he directed

1146
00:52:15,940 --> 00:52:18,130
S2: and wrote and which did not do very well. And

1147
00:52:18,130 --> 00:52:19,690
S2: then kind of I guess since then the show has

1148
00:52:19,690 --> 00:52:23,130
S2: increasingly been, you know, viewed poorly and seems to have

1149
00:52:23,130 --> 00:52:25,350
S2: aged poorly. And I think that's left an imprint on him,

1150
00:52:25,350 --> 00:52:27,870
S2: as would anyone. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting chat.

1151
00:52:27,870 --> 00:52:31,170
S1: It's interesting how few shows like it have existed. The

1152
00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:34,260
S1: only show I could think of that really fell right

1153
00:52:34,260 --> 00:52:36,779
S1: into this space is Ballers. Do you guys watch this? Yeah.

1154
00:52:36,780 --> 00:52:37,500
S4: I love the show.

1155
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:38,700
S3: I love Dwayne Johnson.

1156
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:39,360
S4: Yeah.

1157
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,930
S1: Dwayne Johnson, uh, John David Washington, it's executive produced by

1158
00:52:42,930 --> 00:52:45,379
S1: Mark Wahlberg. So some of that entourage DNA is there.

1159
00:52:45,380 --> 00:52:48,680
S1: And it's a similar thing. Right. It's about sports managers

1160
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,310
S1: and and uh, the NFL a lot of party scenes,

1161
00:52:52,340 --> 00:52:54,319
S1: a lot of music, a little bit more updated like

1162
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,359
S1: this came out in 2015. So it doesn't feel kind

1163
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,250
S1: of as cringe. And, you know, a lot of discussion

1164
00:52:58,250 --> 00:53:00,470
S1: about like, race because this is about a lot of

1165
00:53:00,469 --> 00:53:02,630
S1: players who are black. It was pretty interesting. It wasn't

1166
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:04,010
S1: like that. Great. I don't think it has like a

1167
00:53:04,010 --> 00:53:08,250
S1: huge legacy or anything like that. But um, as I

1168
00:53:08,250 --> 00:53:09,569
S1: was going to say this out loud, I realized how

1169
00:53:09,570 --> 00:53:14,130
S1: silly it sounds, but a real noticeable, like lack of

1170
00:53:14,130 --> 00:53:19,950
S1: drama comedy shows about dudes hanging out together.

1171
00:53:20,460 --> 00:53:22,470
S2: Thank you for that. Thank you for being a thank

1172
00:53:22,469 --> 00:53:23,940
S2: you for being brave enough to say it.

1173
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:25,620
S4: Well, it feels.

1174
00:53:25,620 --> 00:53:28,020
S1: Weird to say that because, like, again, I don't think like,

1175
00:53:28,020 --> 00:53:29,819
S1: you know, my point isn't like, this is why everyone's

1176
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:32,680
S1: voting for Trump. Because men don't have shows anymore. But

1177
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,489
S1: in this space of like, beyond kind of like action,

1178
00:53:36,489 --> 00:53:39,310
S1: you know, and maybe like outright comedy or whatever, like

1179
00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:44,500
S1: the space of the dramedy where there is some ongoing

1180
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:48,640
S1: kind of relationships that shift and change, and it's the

1181
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:50,259
S1: dynamics of a group of men, or even if it's

1182
00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:54,130
S1: a group of men interacting with like other women. There's

1183
00:53:54,130 --> 00:53:55,509
S1: not that many shows like that.

1184
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:58,150
S3: I don't think there are any shows like purely. Well,

1185
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:59,140
S3: not that I can think of off the top of

1186
00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:01,029
S3: my head. I'm sure there are, and people will let

1187
00:54:01,030 --> 00:54:03,700
S3: us know, but I think it's more because the real

1188
00:54:03,700 --> 00:54:07,930
S3: world has women in it. So women are more than just,

1189
00:54:07,930 --> 00:54:10,780
S3: I guess, the people they have sex with. Like so

1190
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:12,640
S3: I think there are shows that focus on male.

1191
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:13,300
S4: You can have a.

1192
00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:15,610
S1: Show, you can have a show like girls, which focuses

1193
00:54:15,610 --> 00:54:19,240
S1: on men. That doesn't just reduce women to like objects

1194
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:19,870
S1: of sex.

1195
00:54:19,870 --> 00:54:22,300
S3: So you want the men to be the central characters.

1196
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:22,899
S4: Like, I want.

1197
00:54:22,930 --> 00:54:24,759
S1: Boys, I want the show boys. Yeah.

1198
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,130
S4: But aren't.

1199
00:54:27,130 --> 00:54:28,030
S3: They okay? Yeah.

1200
00:54:28,030 --> 00:54:28,420
S4: Look.

1201
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,370
S3: I mean, the bear, everything revolves around.

1202
00:54:33,370 --> 00:54:34,989
S1: The bear is probably. You know what? The bear is

1203
00:54:34,989 --> 00:54:37,180
S1: probably a good shot. The bear is a show where

1204
00:54:37,180 --> 00:54:39,700
S1: you see a lot of men and, like, it's actually

1205
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:41,860
S1: a really good, um, a really good example of this,

1206
00:54:41,860 --> 00:54:44,700
S1: where it's broad, there's a whole bunch of characters from

1207
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:46,680
S1: all sorts of different backgrounds and whatever. But like you

1208
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,930
S1: do see a group of men who relate to each

1209
00:54:48,930 --> 00:54:51,330
S1: other and to other people in a dramatic and funny way.

1210
00:54:51,330 --> 00:54:52,320
S4: That's a really good point.

1211
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:53,640
S3: Presumed innocent.

1212
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:55,890
S4: That doesn't count. Don't know if that counts.

1213
00:54:56,070 --> 00:54:59,759
S3: A man and a group of men. Yeah, there's one woman.

1214
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:00,300
S4: A lot of.

1215
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:03,810
S1: Them, I feel like, are couched in very genre ways. Like.

1216
00:55:03,810 --> 00:55:05,790
S1: Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. We've talked about it

1217
00:55:05,790 --> 00:55:07,589
S1: like all those things come up, but they kind of

1218
00:55:07,590 --> 00:55:12,310
S1: smuggled in. Maybe that's because programmers know that men wouldn't watch,

1219
00:55:12,310 --> 00:55:15,280
S1: like a very earnest, like, entourage. But it's woke, right?

1220
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,469
S1: I don't know what the demographic is for that. So

1221
00:55:17,469 --> 00:55:20,049
S1: they're like, let's have shows like Ozark and Breaking Bad

1222
00:55:20,050 --> 00:55:22,900
S1: that are very gritty, justified, that sort of stuff. And

1223
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:25,419
S1: then in that we'll have some really strong plotlines about

1224
00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:29,200
S1: men relating to each other. Honestly, this probably is why

1225
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,060
S1: people are voting for Donald Trump. I hate to break.

1226
00:55:31,060 --> 00:55:31,570
S4: It to you guys.

1227
00:55:31,570 --> 00:55:35,469
S3: Well, I was reading today a really interesting story about

1228
00:55:35,469 --> 00:55:40,180
S3: how rare the mail reader is. 80% of book buyers

1229
00:55:40,180 --> 00:55:42,280
S3: in the UK and the US are women, and they

1230
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,560
S3: the piece was linking it to kind of the Andrew

1231
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,160
S3: Tate ification of society, where men are, you know, the

1232
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,750
S3: kind of gains attitude. Um, I mean, I hadn't really

1233
00:55:52,750 --> 00:55:55,360
S3: kind of linked that before and thought that was interesting

1234
00:55:55,390 --> 00:55:57,720
S3: to I mean, I don't know if that's relevant to

1235
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,360
S3: what we're talking about, but sums of how men engaged

1236
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:01,110
S3: with culture.

1237
00:56:01,140 --> 00:56:03,990
S2: A co-worker of ours yesterday did say that this was

1238
00:56:03,989 --> 00:56:06,419
S2: a show. Entourage was a show for Andrew Tates, which

1239
00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:07,980
S2: I thought was particularly offensive.

1240
00:56:08,010 --> 00:56:09,450
S3: That is interesting.

1241
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:09,960
S4: That is really.

1242
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,230
S1: Offensive. All right, on to our, uh, final regular segment,

1243
00:56:13,230 --> 00:56:16,140
S1: Impress Your Friends, where we share something we watched, read,

1244
00:56:16,140 --> 00:56:19,200
S1: listen to, or otherwise consumed in culture in the past week. Uh,

1245
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,610
S1: mine's a bit cheeky. Um, I am very excited about

1246
00:56:22,610 --> 00:56:25,460
S1: industry season three dropping in a couple of weeks. I

1247
00:56:25,460 --> 00:56:29,239
S1: think it's August 12th. I've been doing a rewatch of

1248
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,790
S1: seasons one and two. I really like the show. It's fun.

1249
00:56:31,790 --> 00:56:37,100
S1: It's like called a slightly dumber mix of succession and euphoria. Like,

1250
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:40,340
S1: that's fair enough. It's set in the high powered world

1251
00:56:40,340 --> 00:56:43,759
S1: of finance in London. A bunch of young people get

1252
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,419
S1: their cadetships, I guess, traineeships there. They try and like

1253
00:56:47,420 --> 00:56:49,040
S1: do deals and they have a lot of sex and

1254
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:50,990
S1: they do a lot of drugs. It's kind of soapy.

1255
00:56:50,989 --> 00:56:53,239
S1: It's kind of silly. There's a lot of finance jargon.

1256
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,040
S1: I have no idea how accurate it is. I don't

1257
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,520
S1: really care. It's pretty cool. Um, if you're not across

1258
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,920
S1: it at all, get onto it. It's on, uh, binge.

1259
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,100
S1: It's an HBO show. It's on binge and get hype

1260
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:06,980
S1: in time for season three. Mel, what have you got

1261
00:57:06,980 --> 00:57:07,520
S1: for us?

1262
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,640
S3: I have a very good book. It's called Kairos, and

1263
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,580
S3: it makes me sad that not more people are reading. Um,

1264
00:57:12,580 --> 00:57:15,790
S3: it won the International Booker Prize. It's by Jenny Erpenbeck

1265
00:57:15,790 --> 00:57:18,850
S3: and translated by Michael Hofmann. It's about this love affair

1266
00:57:18,850 --> 00:57:21,610
S3: between a student and a married man. There's kind of

1267
00:57:21,610 --> 00:57:24,100
S3: 30 years between them. They meet on a bus in

1268
00:57:24,100 --> 00:57:28,060
S3: East Berlin and their whole relationship, which is really destructive

1269
00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:33,450
S3: and complicated relationship, um, kind of intellectually and emotionally charged. Um,

1270
00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:36,570
S3: and it's set against the backdrop of the collapse of

1271
00:57:36,570 --> 00:57:39,450
S3: kind of East Germany and the end of the the

1272
00:57:39,450 --> 00:57:43,710
S3: Communist dream. It's this really beautiful book. It's hard to explain.

1273
00:57:43,710 --> 00:57:48,000
S3: It's about power, art, culture. Um, and it's quite a

1274
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,870
S3: bleak outlook on life. Um, but it is, uh, it's

1275
00:57:51,870 --> 00:57:54,450
S3: a book that's kind of it moved me in ways

1276
00:57:54,450 --> 00:57:58,010
S3: that not much contemporary literature does. Um, so yeah, I

1277
00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:59,630
S3: think it's well worth adding to the list, and I

1278
00:57:59,630 --> 00:58:01,100
S3: think you would both really like it.

1279
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,380
S1: I love hearing you talk about books, Mel. It's very

1280
00:58:03,380 --> 00:58:06,740
S1: insightful and you're really passionate about it, and I get

1281
00:58:06,740 --> 00:58:09,500
S1: very excited every time you mention them. So thank you

1282
00:58:09,590 --> 00:58:09,800
S1: for that.

1283
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,110
S3: Thank you. As you can. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll send

1284
00:58:12,110 --> 00:58:13,130
S3: a copy up to you.

1285
00:58:13,130 --> 00:58:13,670
S4: I think you'd have.

1286
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:15,500
S1: To buy me a book. Mel, I'm your boss. It's okay.

1287
00:58:16,010 --> 00:58:16,280
S4: Yeah.

1288
00:58:16,850 --> 00:58:18,110
S1: Uh, Thomas, what.

1289
00:58:18,110 --> 00:58:18,440
S4: Have you got?

1290
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,140
S2: Just to stay on trend, my recommendation is set in

1291
00:58:21,140 --> 00:58:24,290
S2: the world of blood sport. Um, now, this is one

1292
00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:26,060
S2: that's actually kind of flown under the radar. It is

1293
00:58:26,060 --> 00:58:28,880
S2: a TV series. It's those about to die. Uh, are

1294
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:29,600
S2: you guys across this?

1295
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,940
S4: Oh, the Roman Empire? Yes. Okay.

1296
00:58:32,270 --> 00:58:33,530
S1: Anthony Hopkins is the guy.

1297
00:58:33,530 --> 00:58:38,390
S2: Yeah, man. This is this has got big, um, Oz energy. Yeah. So. Yeah.

1298
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:39,020
S1: Tell us about it.

1299
00:58:39,020 --> 00:58:41,810
S2: It's all ten episodes. So firstly, straight up it's a

1300
00:58:41,810 --> 00:58:44,270
S2: binge it on the weekend vibe. All ten episodes available

1301
00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:48,010
S2: on Prime now. And basically like, you know, obviously we're

1302
00:58:48,010 --> 00:58:51,040
S2: in a bit of a kind of like gladiator mood

1303
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,500
S2: right now with Gladiator two coming. And, you know, obviously

1304
00:58:53,590 --> 00:58:55,870
S2: every so often we get these shows like, remember, HBO

1305
00:58:55,870 --> 00:58:58,030
S2: did their big Money Like Rome show years ago that

1306
00:58:58,030 --> 00:58:58,630
S2: they only gave.

1307
00:58:58,630 --> 00:58:59,620
S1: Yeah, I loved Roman.

1308
00:58:59,620 --> 00:59:02,320
S2: Two seasons two, which was a fucking crime against TV.

1309
00:59:02,410 --> 00:59:05,680
S2: Probably the worst decision they made since cancelling entourage. But

1310
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,650
S2: Those about to die is basically like it's set in

1311
00:59:08,650 --> 00:59:12,360
S2: the world of the gladiator games and, you know, kind

1312
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,820
S2: of in a similar way. It's like a succession meets

1313
00:59:14,820 --> 00:59:19,350
S2: Rome meets like almost like a ballers. Like we get

1314
00:59:19,350 --> 00:59:21,480
S2: the politics of the sport set against the backdrop of

1315
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,840
S2: the Roman Empire. Basically, Anthony Hopkins plays the Emperor, who's

1316
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,360
S2: like very much on his last legs. He's like slowly widening.

1317
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,690
S2: And yet as he's kind of like dying wish he

1318
00:59:30,690 --> 00:59:34,140
S2: wants to reinvigorate these, you know, the gladiator games. And

1319
00:59:34,140 --> 00:59:36,000
S2: when I first got told about this, I was like, oh,

1320
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,250
S2: this sounds like it has all the elements of being

1321
00:59:38,250 --> 00:59:40,950
S2: a stinker. Like, you know, big celebrity attached. That probably

1322
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:43,500
S2: doesn't give a fuck about the project. Just another Roman

1323
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:45,750
S2: show like this will just come and go that no

1324
00:59:45,750 --> 00:59:48,300
S2: one will ever talk about it. Watch a couple of episodes.

1325
00:59:48,510 --> 00:59:50,490
S2: It is so well done. They've spent a lot of

1326
00:59:50,490 --> 00:59:54,750
S2: money on it. Um, like, the set dressing is incredible.

1327
00:59:54,750 --> 00:59:57,720
S2: Huge cast, but like, everyone gets equal billing and there's

1328
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,990
S2: great character arcs. I really think this is the type

1329
00:59:59,990 --> 01:00:01,850
S2: of show that you can like. You put on one

1330
01:00:01,850 --> 01:00:03,830
S2: and then like before you know it, you've got bed

1331
01:00:03,860 --> 01:00:05,420
S2: sores because you've been there for ten hours.

1332
01:00:05,900 --> 01:00:08,900
S1: Uh, great chats to him. Great episode, a lot of fun.

1333
01:00:08,900 --> 01:00:11,690
S1: Can't wait to find out what JD Vance thinks about

1334
01:00:11,690 --> 01:00:15,080
S1: Deadpool versus Wolverine. We'll talk about that next week. Uh.

1335
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:15,740
S1: Take care. See you.

1336
01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:16,610
S4: Then. Stay bright.

1337
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,440
S2: All right, cue the entourage theme song.

1338
01:00:18,530 --> 01:00:24,370
UU: Yeah, yeah, yeah, My mind had been in limbo. In

1339
01:00:24,370 --> 01:00:28,990
UU: the memory you overflow. Wanna be your super hero? Or

1340
01:00:28,990 --> 01:00:33,490
UU: even if I tumble, fall. I'm okay.

1341
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:43,090
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Huang.

1342
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,000
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1343
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,610
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1344
01:00:48,610 --> 01:00:51,280
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode

1345
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,160
S1: with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!