WEBVTT - Fighting the grey stigma 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.800 Nine podcasts. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.360 Welcome back to Prime Time. Today I'm talking about something 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.200 other people seem to care about, sometimes more than the 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.040 people going through it. Aging and the physical effects, and 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.479 in particular going grey for women. Joining me to talk 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.200 about graying is Katherine Greer. Katherine is an Australian Canadian 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.279 author and copywriter, baker and mother. She's just written her 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.240 first novel, The Bittersweet Bakery Cafe. And over the last 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:41.600 few years, she's gone grey all by choice. Katherine, welcome 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:42.559 to Prime Time. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.559 Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.440 I am really excited. You've written a story in the 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.279 Sydney Morning Herald this week, along with the launch of 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.400 your book, and it dives into the topic of going grey, 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.120 which I think is really interesting for all of our 0:00:59.310 --> 0:01:02.310 listeners or, you know, so many of us in our 0:01:02.310 --> 0:01:06.710 40s and 50s are taking that journey. And you talk 0:01:06.750 --> 0:01:09.670 about your choice to ditch the dye. I'd love you 0:01:09.670 --> 0:01:11.950 to take us on the journey. What motivated you? 0:01:12.590 --> 0:01:14.309 Yeah. So I was quite young. 0:01:14.310 --> 0:01:17.510 When I made the decision and it was pre-COVID. So 0:01:17.510 --> 0:01:20.150 that was interesting. When you think about it, I just 0:01:20.150 --> 0:01:22.310 got to this point where I had started to dye 0:01:22.310 --> 0:01:24.670 my hair when I was 28 years old, because I 0:01:24.670 --> 0:01:27.750 needed to. It wasn't because I wanted to. I was 0:01:27.750 --> 0:01:33.030 seriously going gray at 28. And yeah, and so I 0:01:33.030 --> 0:01:36.789 was dying every eight weeks, and then every six weeks 0:01:36.790 --> 0:01:38.870 and then every four weeks. And by the time I 0:01:38.870 --> 0:01:42.190 was in my mid to late 40s, it was starting 0:01:42.190 --> 0:01:43.949 to look like I'd have to dye my hair every 0:01:43.950 --> 0:01:49.230 two weeks to get rid of completely silver roots. And 0:01:49.270 --> 0:01:51.590 I was on a vacation down at Hyams Beach, which 0:01:51.590 --> 0:01:54.030 is a location in the inspiration for my new book 0:01:54.430 --> 0:01:57.430 and chatting with my family. And I was so irritated 0:01:57.470 --> 0:01:59.830 by the wind whipping around that I scraped all my 0:01:59.830 --> 0:02:02.750 hair back into a ponytail. And my teenage son. You 0:02:02.750 --> 0:02:03.750 have a son. So you know what. 0:02:04.070 --> 0:02:04.270 This. 0:02:04.310 --> 0:02:06.270 Is like. He ran up to me and he said, 0:02:06.310 --> 0:02:09.470 wait a second. Is is that your real hair color? 0:02:09.710 --> 0:02:13.190 I actually think it's kind of pretty. It's silver. And 0:02:13.190 --> 0:02:17.150 in that moment, I just thought, I am so tired 0:02:17.150 --> 0:02:22.870 of the time and the futile exercise of fighting this. 0:02:23.230 --> 0:02:26.750 What would it look like if I just sought authenticity 0:02:26.790 --> 0:02:32.150 from the outside in and let my gray roots uncover themselves? Like, 0:02:32.150 --> 0:02:35.230 how bad could it look? You know, I was. I 0:02:35.230 --> 0:02:37.990 was feeling very. I'd say I'm live in Sydney. I 0:02:37.990 --> 0:02:40.550 was feeling very mosman blonde in the sense that, you know, 0:02:40.590 --> 0:02:42.510 I had the blonde bob and I was a school 0:02:42.510 --> 0:02:44.790 mom and I was an older school mom. I had 0:02:44.790 --> 0:02:49.150 my second child when I was 37, and I felt 0:02:49.150 --> 0:02:51.910 like I didn't want to age myself, you know, and, 0:02:51.950 --> 0:02:55.030 and I think really, bec the truth is, I do 0:02:55.030 --> 0:02:57.980 look older than my peers who don't color their hair. 0:02:58.620 --> 0:03:01.660 It's absolutely true. I know everybody wants the good news story. 0:03:01.660 --> 0:03:04.100 Like I ditched the dye and I look so young. 0:03:04.620 --> 0:03:08.460 I don't think I do look young, but there's also 0:03:08.580 --> 0:03:13.460 something that looks good about your natural hair color coming 0:03:13.460 --> 0:03:18.100 through because it is natural, you know. And so it 0:03:18.139 --> 0:03:22.019 matches with your skin tone. The whole thing was very 0:03:22.020 --> 0:03:25.859 freeing for me, but I did it slowly with badger roots. 0:03:25.900 --> 0:03:28.780 I want to hear about that because I, you know, 0:03:28.820 --> 0:03:31.420 I think that the process and the, you know, I 0:03:31.419 --> 0:03:34.540 don't have much gray actually blessed right now. I'm actually 0:03:34.540 --> 0:03:38.340 going browner because I've I've bleached my hair all my life, 0:03:38.340 --> 0:03:39.980 and I've just hit that point where I think it 0:03:39.980 --> 0:03:42.220 looks a little bit weird and a little bit kind 0:03:42.260 --> 0:03:44.780 of canned, and I've sort of gone, actually, it's in 0:03:44.780 --> 0:03:46.460 fashion right now to go a bit browner. So I'm 0:03:46.460 --> 0:03:50.780 gonna lean into the fashion and maybe this normal route, 0:03:50.820 --> 0:03:53.620 they call it a route, drag their dyeing into my hair. 0:03:54.010 --> 0:03:57.730 but it's actually my natural color coming. 0:03:58.090 --> 0:04:02.290 The the question back is what if it's beautiful? Yeah, 0:04:02.490 --> 0:04:03.010 it's scary. 0:04:03.130 --> 0:04:04.090 To go darker. 0:04:04.730 --> 0:04:08.330 Yeah, but what if your natural color is actually beautiful 0:04:08.450 --> 0:04:11.650 and you've just been hoodwinked all this time by the 0:04:11.650 --> 0:04:16.330 massive marketing machine that says women need to spend thousands 0:04:16.330 --> 0:04:20.050 of dollars a year and hours in the salon chair 0:04:20.089 --> 0:04:23.370 just trying to keep on top of something that's going 0:04:23.410 --> 0:04:27.170 to happen anyway. So my decision was really like, right, 0:04:27.170 --> 0:04:31.290 I'm 49, I'm just going to get my aging over with. 0:04:31.650 --> 0:04:33.690 I'm just going to get it over with. And then 0:04:33.690 --> 0:04:38.289 I will roll on into those years as myself, and 0:04:38.290 --> 0:04:40.410 no one's going to be startled by me, you know, 0:04:40.450 --> 0:04:43.729 being 70 and black haired one day and then, you know, 0:04:43.770 --> 0:04:46.850 the next day deciding to go gray. So so that's 0:04:46.850 --> 0:04:50.730 what I did. And honestly, I would recommend doing it 0:04:50.730 --> 0:04:54.089 a bit younger. For the benefit of doing it younger, 0:04:54.089 --> 0:04:57.890 is that your face is still quite young when you're 0:04:57.890 --> 0:05:01.849 in your 40s, you know. Instead of doing the transition 0:05:01.850 --> 0:05:05.530 at 70 or 80, when you are your age everywhere, 0:05:05.529 --> 0:05:08.530 and then you slowly reveal your hair. But look, it's 100% 0:05:08.529 --> 0:05:11.610 a woman's choice. Not like I'm trying to tell anybody 0:05:11.610 --> 0:05:12.050 what to do. 0:05:12.050 --> 0:05:14.050 People want to know what it feels like and what 0:05:14.050 --> 0:05:17.130 the process feels like, because so many of us dye 0:05:17.130 --> 0:05:19.969 our hair. I mean, I started dying at 14, right? 0:05:20.010 --> 0:05:22.529 And yeah, and I don't think there has been a 0:05:22.529 --> 0:05:24.529 period of my life where I haven't had hair dye 0:05:24.529 --> 0:05:25.130 in my hair. 0:05:25.290 --> 0:05:26.250 Um, no. 0:05:26.850 --> 0:05:30.130 I wouldn't know my natural color, to be honest. It's 0:05:30.250 --> 0:05:31.170 it's an illusion. 0:05:31.890 --> 0:05:33.930 And when you let your roots grow out just a 0:05:33.930 --> 0:05:37.180 bit like, here's my advice, right? Give yourself 3 or 0:05:37.180 --> 0:05:40.529 4 weeks and then just pull all your hair back 0:05:40.570 --> 0:05:43.370 and and look at yourself in the mirror and see 0:05:43.370 --> 0:05:46.570 what it looks like. You might actually be really surprised 0:05:46.570 --> 0:05:49.690 at how pretty the brown is instead of all of 0:05:49.730 --> 0:05:53.360 the The other lovely thing about ditching the die is 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.480 that your hair feels so good. It feels like it 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.440 felt when you were a little girl. Do you remember 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.440 all those silky braids and plats and ponytails and just 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:04.000 the silky? 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:04.480 Remember my. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:05.000 Daughters. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.279 Before they started bleaching? Yeah. And, you know, even they've 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.120 joined the the the festival at 14, 15, you know, they, 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.000 they can't resist doing what everybody does. And it is 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.240 this interesting thing where breeding into our families and, and 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.279 but it's interesting because going silver in our 50s, even 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.640 our 40s is becoming a bit more cool. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.760 It is. And it's surprising for me. So you're a 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.200 woman with crowning glory hair? I don't know, some people 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.600 are listening to this. Some people are watching it. I'm 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.120 a woman with okay hair. Hair has never been my 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.560 crowning glory. But when I went gray or silver, my 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.880 natural color came out. It was shocking to me how 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.040 many people now routinely stop me to tell me they 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:48.910 love my hair. 0:06:48.950 --> 0:06:51.390 I do love your hair. It's beautiful. Right? 0:06:51.550 --> 0:06:55.310 Thank you. It's actually pretty average. But if you saw 0:06:55.310 --> 0:06:59.590 me with a dyed blonde bob, you'd probably think it's 0:06:59.589 --> 0:07:03.670 not the greatest hair. But, um. I think the natural 0:07:03.670 --> 0:07:06.830 color actually looks quite pretty, right? It suits my skin 0:07:06.830 --> 0:07:10.790 tone and. And also, I have this feeling in in midlife. 0:07:10.950 --> 0:07:14.430 This is really important to me as a midlife woman 0:07:14.670 --> 0:07:17.390 to start to center our concerns. I wrote a bit 0:07:17.390 --> 0:07:21.390 in the Sydney Morning article about invisibility and how surprised 0:07:21.390 --> 0:07:25.150 I was by women's collective fear when I told them, Nana, 0:07:25.150 --> 0:07:28.790 I'm actually letting my hair go grey. They were afraid 0:07:28.790 --> 0:07:31.750 for me. And the reason they were afraid for me 0:07:31.750 --> 0:07:34.390 is that they thought I would age myself, which I have. 0:07:35.070 --> 0:07:39.390 And then they thought that aging myself would damage me somehow. 0:07:40.230 --> 0:07:42.710 And that's when you really think about the fact that 0:07:42.710 --> 0:07:45.350 that pressure is put on women. Like what? When we're 0:07:45.350 --> 0:07:49.990 in the middle of our lives, we're actually more intelligent, 0:07:49.990 --> 0:07:55.070 we are more aware. We're more responsible. We we have bigger, juicier, 0:07:55.110 --> 0:07:59.830 more interesting lives. And yet the the narrative in society 0:07:59.830 --> 0:08:02.990 is that we're somehow damaging ourselves by being older, that 0:08:02.990 --> 0:08:04.070 that self-directed. 0:08:04.070 --> 0:08:08.190 Ageism, right? That that is that is you saying to yourself, 0:08:08.190 --> 0:08:10.110 I'm afraid of getting older because I'm afraid of the 0:08:10.190 --> 0:08:14.070 judgment people are going to cast on me and or 0:08:14.110 --> 0:08:16.710 I'm afraid of how I'm going to be when I'm older. 0:08:17.030 --> 0:08:19.630 And you judging yourself that you'll be an inferior person 0:08:19.630 --> 0:08:21.550 as you get older, and therefore you can't do all 0:08:21.550 --> 0:08:22.990 the things that you used to be able to do, 0:08:23.030 --> 0:08:25.390 and I think the world is changing. 0:08:25.990 --> 0:08:27.870 It is you do different things now. So when I 0:08:27.870 --> 0:08:30.350 look at life expectancy, you know, if you think about 0:08:30.350 --> 0:08:33.309 drawing a line and you put 50 right in the middle, 0:08:33.710 --> 0:08:37.110 that's in the middle, because we're living my mother's 93 0:08:37.110 --> 0:08:40.230 and going strong, you know, so it's likely that I'll 0:08:40.230 --> 0:08:43.510 live into my 100. So I'm just in the middle 0:08:43.510 --> 0:08:46.179 of my life. And this is why whether it's, you know, 0:08:46.220 --> 0:08:48.220 you want to write your book or you want to 0:08:48.420 --> 0:08:50.300 start your own podcast, or you want to build a 0:08:50.300 --> 0:08:53.820 business like the character in my new novel. Does you 0:08:53.820 --> 0:08:58.780 really think that at 50 you're in the middle? You 0:08:58.780 --> 0:09:01.300 know you are. You are fully primed. You have all 0:09:01.340 --> 0:09:04.660 of this knowledge and awareness and ability to do something 0:09:04.660 --> 0:09:08.420 with your life. Why not do it? You know, and 0:09:08.420 --> 0:09:11.220 and it's so important for women to be centered in 0:09:11.220 --> 0:09:15.380 the middle of their lives, not just seen to be finished, 0:09:15.420 --> 0:09:17.820 because we no longer have youthful power. 0:09:17.980 --> 0:09:20.500 It's interesting you say that because I don't even see 0:09:20.940 --> 0:09:23.740 women seeing this as the middle of their lives. We 0:09:23.780 --> 0:09:25.940 have been preconditioned to think that we're going to die 0:09:25.940 --> 0:09:29.100 at 70, and that we have to have finished all 0:09:29.100 --> 0:09:31.860 the good bits by now. But but we haven't. Have we? 0:09:32.179 --> 0:09:34.980 Um, not at all. Not anymore. When you look at 0:09:34.980 --> 0:09:37.380 health and longevity and all of the science behind this, 0:09:37.380 --> 0:09:39.820 I've seen your podcast. You do amazing things, you speak 0:09:39.820 --> 0:09:44.010 to amazing people. There's a lot of, um, longevity hints 0:09:44.010 --> 0:09:46.970 and tips now. And we just are living longer like people. 0:09:46.970 --> 0:09:49.530 We need to keep our teeth and our hips and 0:09:49.530 --> 0:09:51.970 our everything else for longer. Now we need. 0:09:52.290 --> 0:09:55.690 And the doctors just out from December that that says that. 0:09:55.690 --> 0:09:57.740 I think a 50 year old today has a 1 0:09:57.740 --> 0:10:01.690 in 4 chance of making it to 97. I might 0:10:01.690 --> 0:10:04.610 have this slightly off, but 97 for a man, 98 0:10:04.610 --> 0:10:07.730 for a woman. Uh, or maybe not. Yeah, but but 0:10:07.770 --> 0:10:11.050 and then couples longer. I mean, it's phenomenal. The numbers. 0:10:11.050 --> 0:10:13.170 I might have those a little bit off, but the, 0:10:13.170 --> 0:10:15.660 the data on what our chances are at a 1 0:10:15.660 --> 0:10:18.290 in 4 basis, if we're wealthier than average or healthier 0:10:18.290 --> 0:10:22.929 than average, will outlive these medians. And and that's boggling 0:10:23.690 --> 0:10:23.930 for me. 0:10:23.970 --> 0:10:27.490 It was partially why I chose to write about a 0:10:27.490 --> 0:10:32.490 midlife character, um, in the Bittersweet Bakery Cafe, because I 0:10:32.490 --> 0:10:36.330 was really tired of reading about 30 year olds. I've 0:10:36.370 --> 0:10:38.970 been 30, you've been 30. I've got the guy. I've 0:10:38.970 --> 0:10:42.329 had the babies. I don't want to keep reading about 0:10:42.330 --> 0:10:45.370 that for the rest of my life, you know? And 0:10:45.370 --> 0:10:48.090 that's why, for women's creativity in the middle of their lives, 0:10:48.130 --> 0:10:51.330 like you write about retirement and you, you write about 0:10:51.330 --> 0:10:55.610 important things that impact us now. If all we could 0:10:55.610 --> 0:10:58.930 ever focus on was our experience in our 20s and 30s, 0:10:59.730 --> 0:11:03.250 you know, we we knew so little compared to what 0:11:03.250 --> 0:11:06.730 we know now and we're so much more interesting. I mean, 0:11:06.730 --> 0:11:10.569 we are in this generation. We are the glue. We 0:11:10.570 --> 0:11:16.730 are sandwiched between teenagers. Often aging parents were still working 0:11:16.730 --> 0:11:19.570 and were in the highest pressure point of our careers 0:11:19.570 --> 0:11:23.370 because we're actually advanced in our careers. So we are 0:11:23.370 --> 0:11:26.650 just a pressure cooker and then you add menopause into 0:11:26.690 --> 0:11:27.089 that mix. 0:11:27.130 --> 0:11:29.449 It's a beautiful celebration of life, isn't it? 0:11:30.970 --> 0:11:34.370 One more thing. And still and still, Beck. This is 0:11:34.370 --> 0:11:36.770 what women do, right? We're in the middle of our lives. 0:11:36.770 --> 0:11:39.730 We have a backpack full of rocks that we're carrying. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.200 We see another woman, we sling that backpack over our shoulder, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.960 and we look at her and we say, how can 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:47.720 I help you? Like, what can I do for you? 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.560 What do you need, my friend? And that's why we're 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.000 the glue for everything. Because we just. We know how 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.520 to operate. We. We make this world go round. You know, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.920 we're not all. Thank goodness. And peace be to the 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:02.920 women who are 20 and 30. Look, I was a 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:10.800 very careless and frivolous young woman. Like we all can be, right? 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.680 And yet now I think I'm holding a lot together. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.680 And it's the iceberg. We sit here, I look into 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.880 your eyes, you look into mine. And we see this 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.520 tiny little tip. You see my beautiful painting behind me 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.520 in my home in Sydney. But you don't know the 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.040 seven eights that are under. That's under the water lurking 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.960 that I'm carrying. And I don't know what you're carrying, 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.520 and we don't know what the readers or listeners are carrying, 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.230 but we do know that we're here to provide some 0:12:40.230 --> 0:12:43.550 encouragement for each other. And midlife women know how to 0:12:43.550 --> 0:12:44.390 do that. 0:12:44.429 --> 0:12:46.949 It's beautiful the way you're thinking about it, and you've 0:12:46.990 --> 0:12:48.630 taken that on a bit of a journey. It hasn't 0:12:48.630 --> 0:12:50.990 just been your hair, has it? It's been it's been 0:12:50.990 --> 0:12:53.750 a midlife journey for you of discovering some of your passions. 0:12:53.790 --> 0:12:54.630 Tell us about it. 0:12:55.309 --> 0:12:59.030 Yeah. So basically, I always wanted to write books, but 0:12:59.030 --> 0:13:02.070 I wasn't sure I was capable. And so I just 0:13:02.070 --> 0:13:04.949 told myself stories inside my own head, and I didn't 0:13:04.950 --> 0:13:08.190 even realize I was doing it. I was a copywriter 0:13:08.190 --> 0:13:11.150 at work. So I told you earlier, Bonnie Garmus lessons 0:13:11.150 --> 0:13:14.550 in chemistry. She's also a copywriter. So I'm really good 0:13:14.550 --> 0:13:17.469 at writing and getting to the point in my full 0:13:17.510 --> 0:13:21.150 time work. And I just decided one day and it 0:13:21.150 --> 0:13:26.709 really coincided with going gray. I just thought, if not now, when? 0:13:26.910 --> 0:13:29.069 There is not a person in the world who's going 0:13:29.110 --> 0:13:31.910 to come and knock on my door and say, Katherine, 0:13:31.910 --> 0:13:34.030 you deserve a book deal. How about I hold your 0:13:34.030 --> 0:13:35.950 hand while you sit down and write one, and we'll 0:13:35.950 --> 0:13:39.189 see how this goes. And it looks like with Bittersweet 0:13:39.190 --> 0:13:41.350 Bakery Cafe and with everything else, it looks like all 0:13:41.390 --> 0:13:44.270 roses and success. But you know, it's here. Yeah, I've 0:13:44.270 --> 0:13:47.790 got one too. It's been a huge journey to get here. 0:13:47.790 --> 0:13:52.070 And there's, you know, pitfalls and learning. And it's not linear. 0:13:52.110 --> 0:13:55.350 It's hard to find your readers one by one, the 0:13:55.350 --> 0:13:58.910 women who resonate with you and your message. Um, but 0:13:58.950 --> 0:14:03.310 having said that, I'd just say to everybody, start it. 0:14:03.350 --> 0:14:06.150 Whatever that dream is in your heart, you know, no 0:14:06.150 --> 0:14:08.390 one is going to come and open the door for you. 0:14:08.390 --> 0:14:12.070 You have to kick that door down yourself. Sometimes, you know, 0:14:12.110 --> 0:14:16.189 you have to push it open by whatever means and 0:14:16.470 --> 0:14:17.750 just start working. 0:14:18.030 --> 0:14:20.070 So talk to me about that, because I think people 0:14:20.070 --> 0:14:24.390 need to see perspective on how you've pushed the door. 0:14:24.430 --> 0:14:27.310 Open yourself. You know, often we think, oh, we've got 0:14:27.350 --> 0:14:30.110 to leave something to open another door. But you haven't 0:14:30.110 --> 0:14:32.750 done that, have you? You've you've been on your own 0:14:32.750 --> 0:14:36.820 journey balancing or juggling, maybe. And I'd love to hear 0:14:36.820 --> 0:14:38.580 that story, because I think it makes it a bit 0:14:38.580 --> 0:14:41.380 more real. If we recognize that we have to be 0:14:41.660 --> 0:14:43.540 keeping a few balls in the air as we pursue 0:14:43.580 --> 0:14:44.140 our dream. 0:14:44.740 --> 0:14:48.020 We do. And I think part of it is everybody says, oh, 0:14:48.060 --> 0:14:51.140 you know, it's being organized and focused. And miracle mornings, 0:14:51.140 --> 0:14:52.900 I think there's a bunch of different ways you can 0:14:52.900 --> 0:14:55.020 do it. If you want to start a new project, 0:14:55.700 --> 0:14:58.700 you can try the boot camp approach, which is I'm 0:14:58.740 --> 0:15:01.940 going to take the first weekend of this month, and 0:15:01.940 --> 0:15:05.140 for Saturday and Sunday, I am going to really focus 0:15:05.140 --> 0:15:08.420 on this project, whether it's starting my business or starting 0:15:08.420 --> 0:15:10.540 a book or whatever it is. I'm going to take 0:15:10.540 --> 0:15:13.100 two days. I'm going to go hardcore. I was going 0:15:13.140 --> 0:15:15.140 to say pizza and beer, you know, and late nights, 0:15:15.140 --> 0:15:17.060 but whatever. 0:15:17.060 --> 0:15:19.780 Not that generation. We don't need to do it like that. No. 0:15:19.980 --> 0:15:20.980 Whatever floats your boat. 0:15:20.980 --> 0:15:23.180 But maybe you want a boot camp it. And if 0:15:23.180 --> 0:15:25.060 you're going to write a book, for example, it can 0:15:25.060 --> 0:15:27.540 be as simple as I love to show people this 0:15:27.540 --> 0:15:29.420 because I forget it all the time. Oh, do I 0:15:29.460 --> 0:15:31.100 not have them in my desk drawer? I'm looking for 0:15:31.100 --> 0:15:31.860 sticky notes. 0:15:31.900 --> 0:15:32.340 Oh yeah. 0:15:32.410 --> 0:15:34.770 So in my pile of sticky notes here. 0:15:35.850 --> 0:15:38.770 I love it. Okay, girlfriend, if you want to write 0:15:38.770 --> 0:15:39.610 a book, really. 0:15:39.610 --> 0:15:42.210 The thing that you need for the book is the title. Now, 0:15:42.210 --> 0:15:45.010 often a publisher will change that title, but a good 0:15:45.010 --> 0:15:48.770 title really encapsulates the heartbeat of your book. And you 0:15:48.770 --> 0:15:50.850 can write that on a sticky note and stick it 0:15:50.850 --> 0:15:53.410 on your desk or on your fridge, and you can 0:15:53.410 --> 0:15:56.930 write a sticky note chapter heading for every chapter you 0:15:56.930 --> 0:15:58.770 think you might want to write, and the benefit of 0:15:58.770 --> 0:16:01.370 organizing your ideas and organizing your thoughts. This way, whether 0:16:01.370 --> 0:16:03.690 it's a book or a project or a business, is 0:16:03.690 --> 0:16:07.490 you can get up above it somehow and then visually 0:16:07.530 --> 0:16:09.650 see what you've got in front of you and start 0:16:09.650 --> 0:16:12.370 to move things around a little bit. And you're not 0:16:12.410 --> 0:16:16.250 wasting all this time doing fancy stuff in Canva or 0:16:16.250 --> 0:16:18.690 business plans, or trying to figure it out. You know, 0:16:18.730 --> 0:16:22.130 you just got to get a move on execution. 0:16:22.170 --> 0:16:24.530 I teach it to female founders all the time who 0:16:24.530 --> 0:16:28.770 are in university learning how to grow startups, and it's 0:16:28.770 --> 0:16:31.450 something I do to give back now. And the the 0:16:31.490 --> 0:16:34.450 process of helping women founders get from A to B 0:16:34.450 --> 0:16:38.330 when they're juggling kids at home and obligations and running 0:16:38.330 --> 0:16:40.450 the house and doing all that while they're trying to 0:16:40.450 --> 0:16:43.570 live their dream at any age is teaching them how 0:16:43.570 --> 0:16:45.610 to get to the first execution. Because in fact, if 0:16:45.610 --> 0:16:48.610 you never talk to a customer, you never understand whether 0:16:48.610 --> 0:16:52.130 the market needs what you've outlined because you've never outlined it. 0:16:52.610 --> 0:16:55.250 You can't then adapt it, right? 0:16:55.530 --> 0:16:56.090 Yeah. 0:16:56.250 --> 0:16:58.690 So for me, it was a double whammy really thinking 0:16:58.690 --> 0:17:00.850 about I want to I want to write books. Let's 0:17:00.850 --> 0:17:02.410 just see how I go. So I did all the 0:17:02.410 --> 0:17:06.050 usual channels. There's so much help online. But also what 0:17:06.050 --> 0:17:08.649 I really wanted to do more than that was center 0:17:08.650 --> 0:17:12.330 the midlife experience. So in the Bittersweet Bakery Cafe, what 0:17:12.330 --> 0:17:15.450 I really focused on was the story of a woman 0:17:15.450 --> 0:17:17.729 in the middle of her life, and what would happen 0:17:17.770 --> 0:17:21.370 if everything was taken away from her, everything that she 0:17:21.369 --> 0:17:24.969 relied on, what would she build with what's in her 0:17:24.970 --> 0:17:29.600 own two hands? And I love that idea. You know, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.040 if you wiped out your home, your podcast, your publishing career, 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.040 everything you've built back, why would you do to start over? 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.440 And then I threw her in because I'm a Canadian 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.359 and I truly have. I'm also an Australian now, and 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.679 I have a love of this country that is so deep. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.040 I put her in a little Australian village with all 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:55.080 of these crazy Australian characters who I loved, diverse and interesting, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.639 and just let that book go in the Bittersweet Bakery 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.280 Cafe to sort of see what would happen. Um, and, 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.480 and I love the story. I don't think we all 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.760 need to be writing about 20 and 30 year olds. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.600 I think there is a place for midlife women to 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.320 read about themselves, read books about themselves, where we're not 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.600 the crazy secondary character with purple hair and pink glasses, 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.680 because I'm not like that. And and I'm never going 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.840 to be like that. I'm just myself. But more in 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.910 midlife and we're not some cartoon or caricature of ourselves either. 0:18:29.630 --> 0:18:33.390 I think that's actually a really interesting conversation, because I 0:18:33.390 --> 0:18:35.110 know a lot of women who've taken on a more 0:18:35.109 --> 0:18:38.350 eccentric look as they've got older, maybe, and particularly in 0:18:38.350 --> 0:18:40.630 the media industry, you see a lot of it. And 0:18:40.790 --> 0:18:44.550 I guess I don't have the whole big jewels, big glasses, 0:18:45.030 --> 0:18:46.830 you know, I try to do bright colors. 0:18:46.830 --> 0:18:47.709 But aesthetic. 0:18:47.750 --> 0:18:50.630 It's a, it's a it doesn't work on me as 0:18:50.630 --> 0:18:52.229 much as I look at it and go, wow, you 0:18:52.230 --> 0:18:53.910 can pull that off. Um. 0:18:54.190 --> 0:18:54.590 Yeah. 0:18:54.710 --> 0:18:57.710 But I, I wonder if it's somewhere less invisible. Do 0:18:57.710 --> 0:19:01.150 you feel that that's those people are, are trying to 0:19:01.950 --> 0:19:04.550 to to find something that they are have lost. 0:19:05.310 --> 0:19:08.550 Maybe claim some space in the world. But I would 0:19:08.550 --> 0:19:13.710 say that our authenticity should really shine through and that 0:19:13.710 --> 0:19:17.350 we shouldn't have to. We can, but we shouldn't have 0:19:17.350 --> 0:19:20.110 to jump up and down and shout, right? We should 0:19:20.109 --> 0:19:23.870 just be in a society where there is space for 0:19:23.869 --> 0:19:28.750 us and where we are seeing because of what we contribute, 0:19:28.790 --> 0:19:32.630 not necessarily because we look like, you know, Nicole Kidman 0:19:32.630 --> 0:19:35.310 and I are the same age. And when I look 0:19:35.310 --> 0:19:38.750 at Nicole, she probably looks like my the girlfriends of 0:19:38.750 --> 0:19:41.669 my sons, my young adult sons. You know, she's beautiful 0:19:41.670 --> 0:19:44.429 and she's lovely. She makes a living from her body 0:19:44.430 --> 0:19:47.510 and her face and her acting. And I don't I 0:19:47.510 --> 0:19:50.430 make a living from my my head, my words. 0:19:50.430 --> 0:19:51.150 Yeah, I'm the same. 0:19:51.150 --> 0:19:52.430 My hands and my words. 0:19:52.470 --> 0:19:55.470 Yeah, yeah it is. It's from how we can and 0:19:55.470 --> 0:19:58.910 help people and and help them enjoy their time too. 0:19:59.470 --> 0:20:02.870 Yeah, absolutely. So I would say to anybody wondering, do 0:20:02.869 --> 0:20:06.190 I have to are my only two options complete invisibility 0:20:06.190 --> 0:20:10.590 or becoming really out there with my sense of style? 0:20:10.869 --> 0:20:15.150 I think no, I think can we age as ourselves 0:20:15.150 --> 0:20:17.790 and just be more of ourselves? I use this image 0:20:17.790 --> 0:20:20.830 in the opening of the Bittersweet Bakery Cafe, and it's 0:20:20.830 --> 0:20:23.870 the image of a matryoshka doll. A Russian doll. And 0:20:24.020 --> 0:20:27.859 I argue personally to everyone I know that we don't 0:20:27.859 --> 0:20:30.179 peel layers back like an onion to get to the 0:20:30.180 --> 0:20:33.700 center of ourselves. As we age, we actually add layers 0:20:33.700 --> 0:20:38.419 on and become more of who we were. So you 0:20:38.420 --> 0:20:40.980 know that that's what we want. We want to grow. 0:20:41.660 --> 0:20:44.260 And it's okay to age. Yeah. It's okay to get. 0:20:44.260 --> 0:20:47.380 A beautiful metaphor. And and for me, in the middle 0:20:47.380 --> 0:20:50.700 of my life, I'm 49. You know, I look into 0:20:50.700 --> 0:20:54.980 the future, and I think every thing that I've done 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:58.460 now and maybe two years ago, I stepped away from 0:20:59.100 --> 0:21:02.260 almost everything that I did as a purpose in life and, 0:21:02.300 --> 0:21:05.660 and did rebuild. So it's interesting to to contemplate the 0:21:05.660 --> 0:21:08.620 journey of that. And to have the choice to be 0:21:08.619 --> 0:21:11.100 authentic is an amazing thing. And I'm not sure a 0:21:11.100 --> 0:21:13.860 lot of women feel like they have the choice to 0:21:13.900 --> 0:21:17.700 be authentic. And, you know, I'm blessed that hopefully people 0:21:17.700 --> 0:21:22.290 listen because I am so honest. Um, yeah. But but it. 0:21:22.490 --> 0:21:24.570 And I can't help but be honest. That's just who 0:21:24.570 --> 0:21:27.370 I am. But you know, when you're in a commercial 0:21:27.970 --> 0:21:31.609 role or you're you're expected to be something, it's sometimes 0:21:31.609 --> 0:21:33.290 very hard to be authentic, isn't it? 0:21:33.970 --> 0:21:36.290 It can be. And I love the fact that we 0:21:36.290 --> 0:21:39.170 act as stepping stones for each other. So you're reaching 0:21:39.170 --> 0:21:42.010 back to a bunch of younger women in university and 0:21:42.010 --> 0:21:44.890 whatever and helping them. And you're reaching forward to me, 0:21:44.890 --> 0:21:47.530 and I'm ten years ahead of you so you can 0:21:47.530 --> 0:21:50.490 look at me and think, ah, that's what Katherine's doing 0:21:50.490 --> 0:21:53.690 in ten years. Maybe. Maybe that's what I'll be doing 0:21:53.690 --> 0:21:55.850 in ten years time. You know, she's still working full 0:21:55.890 --> 0:21:58.129 time for a major corporation and doing a lot of 0:21:58.130 --> 0:22:00.970 great work in the world. She's still writing her books. 0:22:00.970 --> 0:22:05.450 She's got her family that she's loving. And, um, yeah, 0:22:05.490 --> 0:22:09.210 I run an age positive lifestyle site. Like, I have 0:22:09.210 --> 0:22:12.489 a Sunday newsletter at our age, and I write to 0:22:12.530 --> 0:22:15.210 people every week. I'm not selling anything. I'm not on 0:22:15.210 --> 0:22:17.649 Substack or any of that, but I just love to 0:22:17.690 --> 0:22:19.610 put some good out into the world, you know, and 0:22:19.609 --> 0:22:23.650 encourage all of us women who are acting as glue 0:22:24.130 --> 0:22:27.609 to say, hey, you can make it through and keep going. 0:22:28.050 --> 0:22:29.930 You know, that's really my message. 0:22:45.890 --> 0:22:49.970 With me is Katherine Greer, author and age positive advocate. 0:22:49.970 --> 0:22:53.810 She's just released her first novel, The Bittersweet Bakery Cafe. 0:22:56.010 --> 0:22:58.010 So we talked about the hair. We talked about the book. 0:22:58.730 --> 0:23:01.010 What else has been in your journey of this sort 0:23:01.010 --> 0:23:04.850 of midlife transition? It sounds like you've been on quite 0:23:04.850 --> 0:23:06.169 a self-discovery journey. 0:23:06.730 --> 0:23:10.010 Yeah, absolutely. So really, I think what it was for 0:23:10.010 --> 0:23:13.410 me is deciding what I wanted to do with the 0:23:13.410 --> 0:23:16.330 time that I have left on the planet. You know, 0:23:16.369 --> 0:23:19.240 what do I want to leave as a legacy? Part 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.040 of that for me is really family. I absolutely value 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.600 and love my family and this sounds so small. I 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:30.159 love Sunday dinner. We don't eat together for most of 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.800 the week. Everybody's got crazy schedules and whatever else. But 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:37.240 I do love, you know, just that warmth. And for me, 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.880 food and baking and family dinners and all of that. 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:43.919 That's love, right? In my world, it's not that way 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.320 for everybody. But I really like to explore how to 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:52.360 have hospitality for one another, how to open up our 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.520 doors and welcome people into our homes. You know? And 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.960 the fact is, nobody expects perfection. Nobody wants perfection. 0:23:59.960 --> 0:24:02.920 In my next book, which. Yeah, which isn't out yet. Um, 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.040 I talk about creating new rhythms with your kids as 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:07.760 they get older and starting to, and mine are just 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:11.240 at the point I've got a 20, nearly 22, nearly 20, 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:15.800 nearly 17. Um, and you start to see the need 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:18.750 to have rhythms that bring them back, right? That they, 0:24:18.950 --> 0:24:22.910 they can, um, kind of become rhythmic in because otherwise 0:24:22.910 --> 0:24:25.390 they do just go off and, and float and come 0:24:25.390 --> 0:24:26.669 back when they need something. 0:24:27.470 --> 0:24:27.870 Yeah. 0:24:28.910 --> 0:24:30.870 Sounds cheeky of me, but I'm a little selfish that 0:24:30.869 --> 0:24:34.230 I love hanging out with them. So do you have 0:24:34.230 --> 0:24:35.030 any rhythms? 0:24:35.590 --> 0:24:37.190 Yeah, well, it would be the same. 0:24:37.190 --> 0:24:39.910 So our our kids are essentially the same age, which 0:24:39.910 --> 0:24:43.109 is really lovely. And you know what that's like. So 0:24:43.109 --> 0:24:47.909 we always have been the open door house where everybody's welcome. 0:24:47.910 --> 0:24:50.950 And I really do like to focus on Sunday dinner, 0:24:51.190 --> 0:24:53.190 just because I feel like it's that one touch point 0:24:53.190 --> 0:24:55.909 during the week where we can kick back and relax. 0:24:55.910 --> 0:24:59.270 I always bake a delicious dessert. Um, one of the. 0:24:59.310 --> 0:25:01.230 That's one of the things I did in the book. 0:25:01.230 --> 0:25:04.310 I added my family recipes, so they're in there, 25 0:25:04.310 --> 0:25:06.910 of them. So good. I'm a good baker. I was 0:25:06.910 --> 0:25:09.150 a baker from the time I was a little girl 0:25:09.150 --> 0:25:12.230 in Canada, growing up on the farm with five older 0:25:12.230 --> 0:25:14.270 brothers and sisters. I learned to bake when I was 0:25:14.270 --> 0:25:18.590 about eight years old. Um, and I just think those 0:25:18.590 --> 0:25:23.270 rhythms of home and heart and whether you're with a 0:25:23.270 --> 0:25:25.750 family or you've got friends in your lives or it's 0:25:25.750 --> 0:25:28.830 found family. And again, when I wrote the book, I 0:25:28.830 --> 0:25:32.350 realized a lot of midlife women don't have families anymore, 0:25:32.390 --> 0:25:36.669 or something could have happened either with, you know, marital 0:25:36.670 --> 0:25:39.470 issues or kids being away in other countries or. 0:25:39.470 --> 0:25:39.790 Whatever. 0:25:39.910 --> 0:25:43.670 Living in Canada right now, or she'll be home in May. But, 0:25:43.710 --> 0:25:46.270 you know, I'm counting down. It's been it's been a 0:25:46.270 --> 0:25:47.310 year without a rhythm. 0:25:47.910 --> 0:25:50.270 It's hard. And we find family where we are. 0:25:50.310 --> 0:25:53.110 I think we've found family. I think that's a concept 0:25:53.109 --> 0:25:55.950 we might stretch out here. I think we we do 0:25:55.950 --> 0:25:58.230 have to build the connections around us. If our family 0:25:58.230 --> 0:25:59.149 is not local. 0:25:59.750 --> 0:26:02.629 We do. And for us, it was always being immigrants 0:26:02.630 --> 0:26:06.150 to Australia and so appreciating being welcomed here by this 0:26:06.150 --> 0:26:10.590 beautiful country and honestly being a bit afraid about Canada. Now, 0:26:10.630 --> 0:26:14.139 I'm saying that quite sincerely, it's not great there with 0:26:14.140 --> 0:26:18.020 what's happening in the world. Um, I feel like we 0:26:18.060 --> 0:26:21.859 have had to build this sort of wider, broader family 0:26:21.859 --> 0:26:24.780 out of found family, and that's the best way to 0:26:24.780 --> 0:26:27.620 do it. I think we need each other in general. 0:26:27.619 --> 0:26:28.900 We all need each other. 0:26:28.940 --> 0:26:31.859 I love that sentiment that that we can. And I 0:26:31.859 --> 0:26:33.580 think it's something a lot of people write to me about. 0:26:33.619 --> 0:26:35.859 They they read the book and it does talk a 0:26:35.859 --> 0:26:40.060 lot about family. Both my books do, and the reality 0:26:40.060 --> 0:26:44.659 for people who have fractured families and kids overseas and, 0:26:44.940 --> 0:26:47.220 and that is that they do have to find family 0:26:47.220 --> 0:26:50.379 around them. And I think that's beautiful. So what other 0:26:50.380 --> 0:26:52.620 rhythms have you created in your life since you've been 0:26:52.619 --> 0:26:55.100 through this adaptive stage? 0:26:55.660 --> 0:26:57.220 I think I've recognized, like. 0:26:57.220 --> 0:27:00.780 We all have, how important our health journey is, and 0:27:00.780 --> 0:27:02.780 that that doesn't need to look like hours at the 0:27:02.780 --> 0:27:06.380 gym or whatever, but it needs to be, um, practical 0:27:06.380 --> 0:27:08.580 in terms of doable steps that we can all do 0:27:08.619 --> 0:27:11.420 just to make sure that we're, you know, sleeping as 0:27:11.530 --> 0:27:13.770 much as we can. That's such a big one for women, 0:27:13.770 --> 0:27:19.410 isn't it? Um, just being able to sleep is so important, 0:27:19.410 --> 0:27:22.250 and it's a tough thing to do. So that's been 0:27:22.250 --> 0:27:25.610 great as well. And I live a creative life wherever 0:27:25.609 --> 0:27:29.130 I can. I like to write a lot. I love 0:27:29.130 --> 0:27:32.490 my girlfriends. I'm one of four sisters. So to me, 0:27:32.490 --> 0:27:35.450 not having my sisters here means I really do rely 0:27:35.450 --> 0:27:37.530 on girlfriends and spend a lot of time with them. 0:27:37.530 --> 0:27:39.570 And then, of course, by the time you finish a 0:27:39.730 --> 0:27:42.330 full time job and a bit of a writing career 0:27:42.369 --> 0:27:45.930 and family and all of those things, it's very it's 0:27:45.930 --> 0:27:48.970 full life and it's big days and yeah, so let's. 0:27:48.970 --> 0:27:50.850 Take a full circle back to the grey hair, because 0:27:50.850 --> 0:27:53.010 I know people will still be fascinated and they'll want 0:27:53.010 --> 0:27:56.050 to hear the rest of the story because because I 0:27:56.050 --> 0:27:58.450 think it it it's a beautiful article that you wrote, 0:27:58.450 --> 0:27:59.970 and I will link it into the show notes for 0:27:59.970 --> 0:28:02.489 people as well as your book. Um, talk to me 0:28:02.490 --> 0:28:03.610 about how long it took. 0:28:04.490 --> 0:28:07.689 Oh, my hair is so slow growing. So you guys are. 0:28:07.690 --> 0:28:10.810 Probably know mine is very slow. It doesn't do anything 0:28:10.810 --> 0:28:14.129 nice except get fuzzy and like straw. So you know 0:28:14.170 --> 0:28:15.490 it's not. Yeah, well. 0:28:15.690 --> 0:28:18.050 You know, that would change if you stopped coloring, so. 0:28:18.090 --> 0:28:20.650 Yeah. That's why I'm going down. The journey is I 0:28:20.650 --> 0:28:23.410 feel like the the menopausal hair loss at the front 0:28:23.410 --> 0:28:26.169 is real. Yeah. From bleaching. So. 0:28:26.650 --> 0:28:29.210 I know. It's so funny. So it took me. You 0:28:29.210 --> 0:28:31.130 can see my hair length. It's like a chin length bob. 0:28:31.170 --> 0:28:34.170 It took me 18 months to grow out my hair 0:28:34.170 --> 0:28:36.250 and I decided to do it. Like I said laughingly 0:28:36.250 --> 0:28:38.850 at the start of the show with Badger Roots. And 0:28:39.170 --> 0:28:42.650 that is what I did. I wanted to allow my 0:28:42.650 --> 0:28:46.210 authenticity to come out slowly. I wanted to get used 0:28:46.210 --> 0:28:50.170 to myself as this unfolded. Now there's so many. 0:28:50.290 --> 0:28:52.610 The brownie yellow at the bottom and the the white 0:28:52.610 --> 0:28:53.090 at the top. 0:28:53.130 --> 0:28:54.410 I did, yeah, I did. 0:28:54.450 --> 0:28:54.890 I've seen. 0:28:54.890 --> 0:28:55.730 It around. 0:28:56.170 --> 0:28:59.130 I know, and I just kept going. I think till 0:28:59.170 --> 0:29:00.650 you get to a certain point, if you kind of 0:29:00.690 --> 0:29:02.570 like brush it back and tuck your hair behind your 0:29:02.570 --> 0:29:04.610 ears and you do that sort of thing, you know, 0:29:04.650 --> 0:29:07.530 you can't see. It's it's easier because then you start 0:29:07.530 --> 0:29:09.840 to get a lot of silver at the front, and 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:12.120 whatever's going on back there, you don't see it quite 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:16.080 as much. But I did that. And then one quite 0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:20.000 short haircut near the end. And then then I was finished. 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:22.840 So it took time, but I needed the time to 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:26.040 get used to myself looking this way. The compliments really 0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:29.400 helped though, and you might find this too. You'll be surprised. 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:33.880 I think people can kind of intuit what looks natural. 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:37.760 Really looks beautiful, you know? It's like looking at a 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:41.760 a leaf on a rose from Ikea, from all of 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:44.840 the false flowers, versus looking at a leaf on a 0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:48.240 rose outside in your garden. You know, the the garden rose. 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:51.880 There's something is just beautiful because it's natural. You really 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:54.600 do get an inherent beauty in that. And I'm not 0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:57.360 saying that women with colored hair aren't beautiful. Of course 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.520 they are. And yes, they do definitely, definitely do look 0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:05.240 younger than I do. But there's a beauty in the naturalness, 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:07.030 so I'd be keen to see what your brown hair 0:30:07.070 --> 0:30:07.630 looks like. 0:30:07.830 --> 0:30:08.510 Maybe after last. 0:30:08.510 --> 0:30:09.950 Night. Maybe. It's beautiful. 0:30:09.990 --> 0:30:12.830 You have to laugh. I texted my hairdresser with a 0:30:12.830 --> 0:30:16.430 couple of pictures because I've been getting the same bleached 0:30:16.430 --> 0:30:19.590 foils for. I don't know how long. Um, and I 0:30:19.590 --> 0:30:21.390 texted her a photograph and I said, can you can 0:30:21.390 --> 0:30:24.430 we do this next time? And she texted me back, nope. 0:30:24.430 --> 0:30:28.550 I'm sorry. I can't do darker on you. If you 0:30:28.550 --> 0:30:29.950 want to do that, you've got to go to another 0:30:29.950 --> 0:30:31.469 salon and get it done and come back to me 0:30:31.470 --> 0:30:33.150 when you want to be blonde again, because I saw 0:30:33.230 --> 0:30:36.510 so many people come once. Get it brown. I desperately 0:30:36.510 --> 0:30:40.390 unhappy with it and then don't want to be brown 0:30:40.950 --> 0:30:43.790 after a couple of weeks who've been perpetually blonde all 0:30:43.830 --> 0:30:46.070 their lives. And and so I did. I went off 0:30:46.070 --> 0:30:48.230 to another hairdresser and she texted me a few weeks later. 0:30:48.430 --> 0:30:50.750 Did you go to get Brown? I think she thought 0:30:50.750 --> 0:30:53.910 she would scare me out of it. And, um, because 0:30:53.910 --> 0:30:56.150 I've been going to her for 20 years. And I 0:30:56.150 --> 0:30:57.790 texted her back a photograph and she said, oh, it's 0:30:57.790 --> 0:31:00.790 not that brown. Um, but to me, this is my natural. 0:31:00.830 --> 0:31:03.870 It's close. Closing in on my natural color. It's probably 0:31:03.870 --> 0:31:08.150 not natural yet, but at least I can see line two. 0:31:08.190 --> 0:31:10.990 It's not just being solid bleach and damage and and 0:31:10.990 --> 0:31:13.590 that's that's sort of where I figure I'll go over 0:31:13.590 --> 0:31:16.070 the journey, but I don't know. They keep telling me 0:31:16.070 --> 0:31:17.110 there's not a lot of gray. 0:31:17.870 --> 0:31:20.870 That's interesting too, because I felt like when my hair 0:31:20.910 --> 0:31:24.630 was blonde, it felt when it was wet. Kind of 0:31:24.630 --> 0:31:27.590 like soft candy floss. 0:31:27.630 --> 0:31:29.390 Fairy floss. Is that what you call it here? 0:31:30.190 --> 0:31:34.630 Yeah. Just really damaged. And now it doesn't. Now it 0:31:34.630 --> 0:31:36.630 literally feels like it felt when I was eight. 0:31:36.870 --> 0:31:37.750 It's just gray hair. 0:31:37.790 --> 0:31:40.350 Silky or thick or coarse. 0:31:40.390 --> 0:31:40.990 It's yours. 0:31:41.030 --> 0:31:44.750 It's a it's a bit thicker, maybe, or. But I 0:31:44.750 --> 0:31:47.430 wouldn't know. I definitely don't have coarse hair. I'm sure 0:31:47.430 --> 0:31:49.870 some people do, but those are the women. You see 0:31:49.870 --> 0:31:53.070 them with gray hair on Instagram. They look fabulous. Oh 0:31:53.110 --> 0:31:53.550 my gosh. 0:31:53.590 --> 0:31:54.550 They're they're. 0:31:54.590 --> 0:31:55.310 Gorgeous. 0:31:55.310 --> 0:31:55.870 They're just. 0:31:55.870 --> 0:31:56.790 Gorgeous. 0:31:56.910 --> 0:31:58.990 And you've done a bit of modeling with it as well. 0:31:59.390 --> 0:32:00.270 Yeah. Yeah. 0:32:00.270 --> 0:32:02.780 So that ended up happening really because I went gray 0:32:02.780 --> 0:32:06.700 early and that was interesting. So when I was doing 0:32:06.700 --> 0:32:09.460 that work in the world, I kind of fell into it. 0:32:09.460 --> 0:32:13.180 And when I would show up for shoots, I was 0:32:13.580 --> 0:32:18.220 the granny of a of a child, like a 7 0:32:18.220 --> 0:32:20.100 or 8 year old child, which was fine, like in 0:32:20.100 --> 0:32:23.660 real life I could have been. But the mother cast 0:32:23.660 --> 0:32:27.060 of that child was invariably like 40 years old, but 0:32:27.060 --> 0:32:30.460 looked about 30 because, you know, colored her hair or 0:32:30.460 --> 0:32:33.060 whatever else. So I was arriving. I was would be 0:32:33.060 --> 0:32:35.620 ten years older than these women. I would be cast 0:32:35.620 --> 0:32:38.700 as their mother, the granny. And they were. 0:32:39.420 --> 0:32:39.660 They. 0:32:39.660 --> 0:32:42.660 Were like the young mom. Yeah. And I kept talking 0:32:42.660 --> 0:32:44.700 to them, thinking it felt so well, it would be 0:32:44.700 --> 0:32:47.860 like you and me exactly right, being on a shoot together. 0:32:47.860 --> 0:32:49.620 And you'd be the mom of the seven year old, 0:32:49.620 --> 0:32:53.220 and I'd be your mother nine years older than you are. 0:32:53.260 --> 0:32:58.180 And yet we feel like peers. Absolutely. And it made. 0:32:58.180 --> 0:33:00.890 Me think, you know, and the industry, that industry. And industry. 0:33:00.890 --> 0:33:03.410 And that's another thing. When I wrote the Bittersweet Bakery Cafe, 0:33:03.450 --> 0:33:07.050 it it opens with this scene of the main characters, 0:33:07.050 --> 0:33:10.290 an advertising exec in Sydney. And I really used some 0:33:10.290 --> 0:33:13.250 of my experiences there around classic models and whatever else. 0:33:13.450 --> 0:33:17.130 I think it's super interesting to see the way that 0:33:17.130 --> 0:33:21.930 society wants to ignore midlife women. But now there's this 0:33:21.930 --> 0:33:25.370 whole resurgence of people like Andie MacDowell who say, I 0:33:25.410 --> 0:33:28.770 don't want to be young. I've been young, I'm actually old, 0:33:29.210 --> 0:33:32.130 and I like it. And we used to think in advertising, too. 0:33:32.170 --> 0:33:36.570 It's so interesting. We think of featuring older women as 0:33:36.610 --> 0:33:40.370 like Helen Mirren. Well, Helen Mirren is in her 80s 0:33:40.770 --> 0:33:45.130 and Jennifer Lopez's My Age, and she looks 25 and 0:33:45.130 --> 0:33:48.890 she pole dances at the Super Bowl. So where are 0:33:48.890 --> 0:33:52.610 the women who are really like me? And that's that's 0:33:52.610 --> 0:33:55.010 why I wrote about a midlife character in my book, 0:33:55.010 --> 0:33:59.570 because I thought, where are we? Why are we having 0:33:59.610 --> 0:34:03.290 to disappear? Or why are we having to be 30? 0:34:03.330 --> 0:34:06.810 Look as if we're 30. Do things to our faces 0:34:06.810 --> 0:34:10.450 and whatever to to appear to be 30 when we're not. 0:34:10.489 --> 0:34:11.290 Well, it used to be the. 0:34:11.290 --> 0:34:14.330 40 year old woman who had to then act young 0:34:14.370 --> 0:34:16.890 to get a job, to get an opportunity to. But 0:34:16.890 --> 0:34:18.810 but I think very much now we are seeing the 0:34:18.810 --> 0:34:22.049 50 and 60 year old woman possibly even steal the 0:34:22.050 --> 0:34:26.170 limelight from younger stars. And it's beautiful to see because 0:34:26.210 --> 0:34:29.290 in in my early days in media, we used to hear, oh, 0:34:29.330 --> 0:34:32.130 once you're 40, 45, you won't get a gig. And 0:34:32.170 --> 0:34:36.050 and now you're seeing, um, older models on the runways, 0:34:36.090 --> 0:34:40.489 older models featuring in the campaign ads for the major retailers. Um, 0:34:40.530 --> 0:34:43.569 it is like the retailers have woken up and, and 0:34:43.570 --> 0:34:46.770 recognized that their, their shopper is. 0:34:46.810 --> 0:34:47.170 Because. 0:34:47.170 --> 0:34:49.810 We have so much purchasing power. Like you'd know this 0:34:49.810 --> 0:34:52.290 from all your work in the finance world, right? We 0:34:52.290 --> 0:34:55.850 have we spend something midlife women spend something like $70 0:34:55.850 --> 0:35:00.720 trillion a year on this planet. We're the shoppers. We're 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:02.920 the ones who have the money to spend, too, because 0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:06.120 we're later in our lives. And so it's time that 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:09.400 retailers really woke up and saw that that was the case. 0:35:09.880 --> 0:35:14.360 And that aspirational advertising doesn't have to mean that everybody 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:19.040 looks 30. You know what? What does aspirational 50 look like? 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:25.240 What does aspirational 60 or 70 look like? Looks vibrant. Loved. Healthy. 0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:27.400 You know that's what it looks like. 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:33.640 Yeah, I love it I. You certainly are enthusiastically, uh, 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:36.760 in the right place for me. It fits for me 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:39.760 and for me. I think we've got to represent 50 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.360 and well, for me, 47 up has been the period 0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:46.520 where I think we lose our way as a society. 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:49.279 We don't represent the needs of people in that age group. 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.680 We don't talk about the issues of people in that 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.840 age group all the way up into retirement. I find 0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:58.190 the The invisibility of these issues. When we when I 0:35:58.190 --> 0:36:00.310 do things for the newspaper, often I'll talk about issues 0:36:00.310 --> 0:36:04.710 for the retired generation, and younger journalists aren't even registering 0:36:04.710 --> 0:36:07.069 that these are issues, you know, and and so I 0:36:07.110 --> 0:36:10.109 sort of find this gap in this space where lots 0:36:10.110 --> 0:36:13.589 of smart people know the gaps there, but they aren't in. 0:36:13.590 --> 0:36:13.750 The. 0:36:13.750 --> 0:36:16.910 Field where they might fill the space. So, um, it's 0:36:16.910 --> 0:36:19.910 it's possibly a cost structure problem in the media. People 0:36:19.910 --> 0:36:23.549 leave the media because they don't pay much. Um, you know, 0:36:23.590 --> 0:36:26.150 things like that become real. And so you've got to 0:36:26.150 --> 0:36:30.950 be be able to sustain yourself if you are working 0:36:30.950 --> 0:36:32.710 or you go the corporate side, I guess. 0:36:33.430 --> 0:36:34.310 So why why. 0:36:34.350 --> 0:36:38.230 Do you think that people aren't interested, since there are 0:36:38.350 --> 0:36:41.190 so many of us and there's such a need for 0:36:41.190 --> 0:36:46.509 education and exploration around these life stages? Like why is 0:36:46.510 --> 0:36:48.710 it not there? Why is it not being provided? 0:36:49.070 --> 0:36:49.830 Well, I. 0:36:49.830 --> 0:36:53.750 Suspect it's just unsexy, right? There's there's other appealing areas. 0:36:53.910 --> 0:36:55.710 And when you have a limited pool of activity that 0:36:55.710 --> 0:36:58.630 you've got to do. I mean, the reality of the 0:36:58.630 --> 0:37:01.310 advertising dollar in this segment is that it will always 0:37:01.310 --> 0:37:06.030 push younger, um, simply. And advertising is a shrinking market. 0:37:06.030 --> 0:37:09.110 So it's a tough model to be in media, but 0:37:09.469 --> 0:37:14.390 to be able to understand this market and serve it 0:37:14.390 --> 0:37:16.509 with products and services is a is a beautiful thing. 0:37:16.510 --> 0:37:20.149 I've been working for older Australians for what, 15 years 0:37:20.150 --> 0:37:22.910 in my career with my previous businesses starts at 60 0:37:22.950 --> 0:37:26.590 and then stepping away from that one and and doing 0:37:26.590 --> 0:37:29.830 epic from from nothing. And I feel like epic is 0:37:29.870 --> 0:37:32.590 a a journey I'm on to understand all the problems. 0:37:32.590 --> 0:37:34.589 And now we move into prime time and we talk 0:37:34.630 --> 0:37:37.790 about 50 year olds and 47 to 65, the period 0:37:37.790 --> 0:37:41.390 before we end up at the end of our employment. 0:37:41.390 --> 0:37:45.390 Because I don't even think there's a specific line that 0:37:45.390 --> 0:37:48.910 we're going to end up crossing into retirement anymore. It's 0:37:48.910 --> 0:37:51.150 not a it's not a finish line anymore. 0:37:51.550 --> 0:37:52.980 It's a very has been. 0:37:53.020 --> 0:37:53.420 Right. 0:37:53.500 --> 0:37:53.859 You know, we. 0:37:53.860 --> 0:37:56.100 Want to keep being purposeful in the next phase of 0:37:56.100 --> 0:38:00.299 our lives. And that might have us keep working by choice. 0:38:00.980 --> 0:38:02.819 And why not? When you think about it, if you 0:38:02.820 --> 0:38:07.500 think we need to finance ourselves into our 90s or beyond, 0:38:08.300 --> 0:38:11.700 we need a lot of like ability to keep working. 0:38:11.700 --> 0:38:12.379 We do. We need. 0:38:12.380 --> 0:38:13.140 The capital. 0:38:13.380 --> 0:38:14.700 Brain stimulated. 0:38:15.380 --> 0:38:16.420 Yeah. For those who. 0:38:16.420 --> 0:38:17.340 That's important too. 0:38:18.060 --> 0:38:20.020 Yeah. And we're we're. 0:38:20.020 --> 0:38:23.100 So valuable because we know so much. We just have 0:38:23.100 --> 0:38:25.900 that depth of experience. And I think that, you know, 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:29.660 working longer lives is actually a very positive thing. I 0:38:29.660 --> 0:38:32.060 agree with you. I think it's admirable what you're doing. 0:38:32.060 --> 0:38:35.620 I also think it makes good business sense, because there 0:38:35.620 --> 0:38:37.500 are a lot of us in the middle of our 0:38:37.500 --> 0:38:42.340 lives right now looking for inspiration, looking for next steps, 0:38:42.340 --> 0:38:45.420 how to and how to make the most of things now. 0:38:45.620 --> 0:38:48.660 I love that about the work that you're doing. I'm 0:38:48.660 --> 0:38:52.770 doing it in novels. You're doing it in. It's a blessing. Books? Yeah. 0:38:52.770 --> 0:38:55.170 It's a blessing to combine passion with purpose, isn't it? 0:38:55.170 --> 0:38:57.930 And and make a living being able to do it. 0:38:57.930 --> 0:39:00.770 I think that, you know. And so so to wrap 0:39:00.770 --> 0:39:03.770 up today, I'd love to put this beautiful book up 0:39:03.770 --> 0:39:05.930 and have you tell us how it came about. 0:39:06.770 --> 0:39:11.290 Oh, so really, the Bittersweet Bakery Cafe came about because 0:39:11.290 --> 0:39:14.210 I was frustrated with all of the books out there 0:39:14.210 --> 0:39:15.569 featuring 30 year olds, and I. 0:39:15.570 --> 0:39:16.050 Thought. 0:39:16.210 --> 0:39:19.610 Where are the books for women like us who actually, 0:39:19.930 --> 0:39:24.009 you know, characterize us and center on us and are 0:39:24.010 --> 0:39:29.010 about our juicy, huge and interesting lives and struggles and challenges? 0:39:29.450 --> 0:39:33.089 So that's why I wrote the novel. So it's been 0:39:33.090 --> 0:39:35.450 a great journey. I've really loved it. It is so 0:39:35.450 --> 0:39:39.290 resonating with women, which is great, and I think it's 0:39:39.330 --> 0:39:45.290 very suitable for that midlife audience who's thinking about reinvention, 0:39:45.290 --> 0:39:48.489 maybe even feeling a bit flat and wondering what's next 0:39:48.810 --> 0:39:52.450 To have some inspiration from a woman who just has 0:39:52.450 --> 0:39:56.290 so much grit and determination and will not give up, 0:39:56.530 --> 0:39:57.610 will not stop. 0:39:57.810 --> 0:40:01.250 Oh, that's so inspiring. I only received my coffee today, 0:40:01.250 --> 0:40:03.890 so I am going to be spending the weekend with it. 0:40:05.050 --> 0:40:07.650 Kathryn Greer, thank you so much for joining me on 0:40:07.650 --> 0:40:08.130 the show. 0:40:08.489 --> 0:40:10.050 Thank you for having me back. 0:40:10.090 --> 0:40:10.810 Thank you. 0:40:12.570 --> 0:40:15.250 Thank you for listening to Prime Time. I would love 0:40:15.250 --> 0:40:18.090 to get some more input from you, our listeners, about 0:40:18.090 --> 0:40:20.650 what questions you have and what you want me to 0:40:20.690 --> 0:40:24.649 explore on the Prime Time podcast. Please email me at 0:40:24.650 --> 0:40:29.489 Beck at Prime Timers. Net. And as always, please rate review. 0:40:29.489 --> 0:40:31.609 And of course, make sure you tap the follow or 0:40:31.610 --> 0:40:34.770 subscribe button on the Prime Time podcast. You can also 0:40:34.770 --> 0:40:37.770 sign up for our weekly newsletter at Prime Timers. Net. 0:40:38.050 --> 0:40:40.250 My name is Beck Wilson. Stay tuned for our next 0:40:40.250 --> 0:40:43.650 episode and in the meantime, make your prime time count.