1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,800 S1: Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of pH. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,879 S1: I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 S1: edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018 I launched my 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,960 S1: own business. pH is dedicated to helping women navigate their 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,640 S1: working lives, but I've made my share of mistakes, especially 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,800 S1: as a leader. In this series, I go in search 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,640 S1: of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore the 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,280 S1: latest thinking on how to be a great leader and 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,720 S1: return to the tried and true methods to better understand 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:43,000 S1: what works and in what situations. I met my next 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,080 S1: guest when she was barely 20 years old. Straight away, 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,600 S1: she stood out as a young leader with drive and determination, 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,400 S1: and we've stayed in touch in the years since. Ruby 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,959 S1: Reese Miller is the founder and CEO of womankind, a 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,440 S1: youth led mental health platform. She launched the platform in 16 00:00:59,570 --> 00:01:03,330 S1: 2020 after struggling with anxiety as a teenager and coming 17 00:01:03,370 --> 00:01:06,850 S1: to terms with her own identity as LGBTQ in a 18 00:01:06,850 --> 00:01:10,610 S1: small country town. She's also a regional health advocate and 19 00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:13,850 S1: deputy commissioner at the New South Wales Mental Health Commission. 20 00:01:14,250 --> 00:01:17,050 S1: In this episode, we talk about how she chooses to 21 00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:19,650 S1: be brave. And just a note, we had some tech 22 00:01:19,690 --> 00:01:22,330 S1: issues during the record, so you might notice the audio 23 00:01:22,330 --> 00:01:25,850 S1: quality change just slightly, but don't let it distract you 24 00:01:25,850 --> 00:01:35,810 S1: from the interview. Ruby, welcome to the podcast. Before I 25 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:40,130 S1: kick off, congratulations on being a finalist in the recent 26 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:44,130 S1: New South Wales Young Australian of the year. That's pretty enormous. 27 00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:46,970 S1: Tell me what that means to you. It was definitely 28 00:01:46,970 --> 00:01:47,530 S1: a surreal. 29 00:01:47,530 --> 00:01:51,610 S2: Moment, and I think that it was really meaningful, not 30 00:01:51,610 --> 00:01:55,650 S2: because of like the accolade or the recognition, but more 31 00:01:55,650 --> 00:01:58,260 S2: for what it represented. Like I think that as a 32 00:01:58,260 --> 00:02:02,059 S2: young person, the things that I felt kind of disqualified 33 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,860 S2: me from leadership are the things that have got me 34 00:02:04,860 --> 00:02:07,660 S2: to that point of recognition. You know, growing up on 35 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:12,220 S2: a farm in regional Australia, navigating anxiety and my identity 36 00:02:12,220 --> 00:02:17,100 S2: as Lgbtqia+, I feel like that kind of recognition really 37 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:20,220 S2: speaks to my own story, but also the movement that 38 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:21,780 S2: womankind has created. 39 00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:23,740 S1: Well, I just didn't know who beat you, to be honest. Like, 40 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:25,780 S1: it feels to me like you were shortchanged because you 41 00:02:25,780 --> 00:02:27,859 S1: didn't actually win it. Can I say that? Or is 42 00:02:27,860 --> 00:02:30,380 S1: that just like, not part of the spirit of these 43 00:02:30,380 --> 00:02:31,500 S1: sort of competitions? 44 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:34,820 S2: No, I especially being up against Ned Brockman in the 45 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:36,580 S2: Young Australian of the year in New South Wales, I 46 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:40,180 S2: was like, he literally ran across Australia and did it 47 00:02:40,180 --> 00:02:43,420 S2: for the most amazing cause, like I couldn't run five 48 00:02:43,419 --> 00:02:45,299 S2: kilometres if I had to. Well, I mean, I could, 49 00:02:45,340 --> 00:02:47,940 S2: but I wouldn't want to. So I think that the 50 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:51,460 S2: work that he's doing is so incredible. And if nothing else, 51 00:02:51,460 --> 00:02:53,660 S2: it's just so nice to expand your network of all 52 00:02:53,660 --> 00:02:56,299 S2: these amazing people. And as well from all ages, like 53 00:02:56,389 --> 00:02:59,710 S2: the people that I spoke to that day, had five 54 00:02:59,710 --> 00:03:03,310 S2: years experience, had 60 years experience. And yeah, the wisdom 55 00:03:03,310 --> 00:03:05,390 S2: that we left with was really, really cool. 56 00:03:05,590 --> 00:03:09,910 S1: I don't care. Ruby, I am still disappointed that you 57 00:03:09,910 --> 00:03:13,350 S1: didn't win and I am super biased. Now I feel 58 00:03:13,389 --> 00:03:17,989 S1: supervised about you because I met you. I just saw 59 00:03:18,270 --> 00:03:19,910 S1: that when we came on. I said, look at you. 60 00:03:19,950 --> 00:03:23,270 S1: You're all grown up because I met you. What? How 61 00:03:23,270 --> 00:03:25,750 S1: many years ago when you were like, 22 years old? 62 00:03:25,790 --> 00:03:28,710 S2: Yeah, it would have been like six years ago, right 63 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:31,950 S2: at the start of my journey. I honestly remember that 64 00:03:31,950 --> 00:03:35,150 S2: the Future Women Rural Leadership Program was one of the 65 00:03:35,150 --> 00:03:37,710 S2: first things that I applied for. And I remember, you know, 66 00:03:37,750 --> 00:03:39,950 S2: that thinking like, oh gosh, what am I doing applying 67 00:03:39,950 --> 00:03:42,270 S2: for this? And when I got it and spent the 68 00:03:42,270 --> 00:03:45,990 S2: time at the summit, it was truly transformational. And I'm 69 00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:48,390 S2: not just saying that because I'm speaking to you. Like 70 00:03:48,590 --> 00:03:51,350 S2: I walked away from those two days just feeling like 71 00:03:51,390 --> 00:03:53,590 S2: I can do anything. And so I'm so excited to 72 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:56,230 S2: be coming to the summit this year, and I'm sure 73 00:03:56,230 --> 00:03:59,990 S2: we'll leave with that kind of inspiration, motivation, focus. 74 00:04:00,390 --> 00:04:02,750 S1: Well, you're not only coming to the summit, you're speaking 75 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:05,110 S1: at the summit. So you know, it's worth me just 76 00:04:05,110 --> 00:04:08,070 S1: pausing for a minute and saying that, you know, you 77 00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:12,350 S1: stood out as a leader in that intake. I've presided, 78 00:04:12,390 --> 00:04:15,470 S1: presided over dozens of intakes. I don't know how many 79 00:04:15,470 --> 00:04:17,830 S1: people I've met. I don't really want to think about it. 80 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:21,029 S1: But you really stood out really early on. And so 81 00:04:21,070 --> 00:04:23,550 S1: I'm excited to be talking to you today about leadership 82 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:26,510 S1: from a young age. Let's go back a little bit. 83 00:04:26,510 --> 00:04:29,589 S1: And it was in 2020, as you say, you grew 84 00:04:29,589 --> 00:04:31,750 S1: up in a country town. Were you on a farm? 85 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:32,830 S1: Rubyw I forget. 86 00:04:32,870 --> 00:04:35,190 S2: I grew up on a farm just outside of Wagga Wagga. 87 00:04:35,230 --> 00:04:37,470 S1: Well, that's probably I probably identified a bit with that 88 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:39,710 S1: because I also grew up in a farm outside of 89 00:04:39,750 --> 00:04:44,070 S1: Hamley Bridge in South Australia. So I identify with that 90 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:46,350 S1: sort of feeling of being in a farm and being 91 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:48,510 S1: in a rural area, and that the cities are big 92 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:50,670 S1: smokes and they're a long way away, and that's where 93 00:04:50,990 --> 00:04:56,360 S1: all the stuff happens. What prompted you to kick off 94 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,159 S1: and launch womankind? Because that's a pretty big shift. Is 95 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,160 S1: it just the kind of, um, the enthusiasm of youth. 96 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,000 S1: And if you knew better, you wouldn't have done it. 97 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,320 S2: I definitely think that's a part of that. Like if 98 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,440 S2: I knew what it took to start and run an 99 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,240 S2: organization now, I'm not sure. I know I probably still 100 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,159 S2: would have, but really one of the like light bulb 101 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,960 S2: moments for me was I was at Tully's, which is 102 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,320 S2: what my friends call school is we do it every 103 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,000 S2: year after school is we go away for a weekend. 104 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,400 S2: We really try and make a habit of it. And 105 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,359 S2: a couple of years out of school, we all kind 106 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,280 S2: of just happened to talk about the things that we 107 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,480 S2: navigated during high school and those really formative years. And, 108 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,200 S2: you know, not just things like break ups, but things 109 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,080 S2: that were really hard and you wouldn't expect a teenager 110 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,080 S2: to be navigating and especially not your friends. And so 111 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,440 S2: I think that when we were having those conversations and 112 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,560 S2: there was enough distance away from our teenage years to 113 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,690 S2: be able to be honest and vulnerable. It really became 114 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:58,210 S2: clear that like, very ironically, our generation is isolated from 115 00:05:58,210 --> 00:06:00,930 S2: each other by the feelings and experiences and things that 116 00:06:00,930 --> 00:06:04,050 S2: we have in common. So that took me down a 117 00:06:04,050 --> 00:06:07,650 S2: rabbit hole of learning about what supports were out there, 118 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:09,729 S2: learning about the mental health system more broadly. And it 119 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:12,169 S2: wasn't until one of my friends said, either do something 120 00:06:12,170 --> 00:06:14,250 S2: about it or stop talking like you could, because we 121 00:06:14,250 --> 00:06:16,250 S2: both know that you can. And I was kind of like, 122 00:06:16,770 --> 00:06:20,529 S2: she's so right. Like there's, there's no harm in trying. 123 00:06:20,529 --> 00:06:22,570 S2: And it was during Covid where I feel like we 124 00:06:22,570 --> 00:06:26,170 S2: had more time to play around with different ideas. And 125 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:29,130 S2: I guess the first step was just looking at my 126 00:06:29,130 --> 00:06:32,529 S2: immediate circle of people and thinking like, who could help 127 00:06:32,529 --> 00:06:35,490 S2: me get closer to the impact that I wanted to create. 128 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:38,170 S2: And whenever I met with someone, whether it was like 129 00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:41,529 S2: a family friend or an old teacher, I asked them like, 130 00:06:41,610 --> 00:06:43,770 S2: can you recommend three people that I can speak to 131 00:06:43,810 --> 00:06:45,969 S2: who will get me closer to my goal? And so 132 00:06:46,210 --> 00:06:50,130 S2: the conversations just started to evolve. And at the start, obviously, 133 00:06:50,260 --> 00:06:52,700 S2: when you're building an organization, you're doing a lot of 134 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:55,700 S2: the doing yourself. And so with that, there was obviously 135 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:57,780 S2: a lot of learning, but I do think it was 136 00:06:57,779 --> 00:07:00,420 S2: just like a little bit of naivety, but also having 137 00:07:00,420 --> 00:07:05,220 S2: that real passion and wanting to create the organization that 138 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:07,659 S2: I didn't have access to. For the people that follow 139 00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:08,820 S2: in my footsteps. 140 00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:10,900 S1: It's so interesting because when I first met you, I 141 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,780 S1: really did relate to you, even though there was decades 142 00:07:13,780 --> 00:07:17,700 S1: in age difference. But I was 2 or 3 years 143 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:21,260 S1: into a business as well and had no clue what 144 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:23,900 S1: I was doing. Wouldn't have probably done it if I 145 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:25,900 S1: knew how hard it was to do all those sorts 146 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:29,700 S1: of things. But I was really blown away by your determination. 147 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:32,500 S1: I want to get to leadership. So let's jump forward. 148 00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:34,380 S1: Tell me where womankind is today. 149 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:40,380 S2: Womankind today has supported over 35,000 young people, and over 65% 150 00:07:40,380 --> 00:07:43,180 S2: of those young people are based in regional, rural and 151 00:07:43,180 --> 00:07:46,060 S2: remote communities, which has always been a goal of mine 152 00:07:46,060 --> 00:07:49,150 S2: to make sure the people who are living Outside of 153 00:07:49,150 --> 00:07:51,670 S2: the city have the same opportunity to access quality care 154 00:07:51,670 --> 00:07:55,270 S2: as their metropolitan peers. But we've also support young people 155 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:58,390 S2: from over 37 countries. So we do that via the 156 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:01,790 S2: womankind app and other digital tools that we have developed, 157 00:08:01,790 --> 00:08:04,950 S2: but also by going into schools and communities and running 158 00:08:05,270 --> 00:08:08,830 S2: wellbeing workshops, but also leadership workshops and workshops that really 159 00:08:08,830 --> 00:08:12,150 S2: help young people develop that sense of belonging. So we're 160 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:15,510 S2: still very much a small organisation. We consider ourselves a 161 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:19,670 S2: social enterprise where everything that we make in the business 162 00:08:19,670 --> 00:08:22,550 S2: is reinvested back into the communities that we support. 163 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:25,230 S1: So just for a minute, when you say, wait, who 164 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:26,310 S1: are you talking about? 165 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:30,830 S2: We at the moment is myself and then a group 166 00:08:30,830 --> 00:08:35,150 S2: of volunteers. And also, I think we have four part 167 00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:37,870 S2: time people that support the work that we're doing. 168 00:08:37,910 --> 00:08:40,870 S1: Okay. Gotcha. All right. Let's go back a bit. Um, 169 00:08:41,190 --> 00:08:44,070 S1: I also want to just pick up on your challenges 170 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:47,240 S1: around identity in a country town. Talk to me about 171 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,720 S1: how that experience has shaped you as a leader and 172 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,160 S1: shaped your business model. 173 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,800 S2: Mhm. So when I was about 16, I started exploring 174 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,040 S2: my identity as LGBT Q plus I didn't it was 175 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,080 S2: very confusing. It was very isolating and it was really lonely. 176 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,720 S2: And I feel like that in that experience, I held 177 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,319 S2: a lot of shame. I feel like now leading an 178 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,920 S2: organization that encourages young people to be true to themselves. 179 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:23,160 S2: I've also grown up with womankind, learning that I too 180 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,120 S2: am enough as I am, and that I can exist 181 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,920 S2: with my whole identity, and that that part of my 182 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,720 S2: identity is probably the least significant part of the person 183 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,640 S2: that I am. So I feel like at the start 184 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,360 S2: of womankind, there was almost this resistance because I didn't 185 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,240 S2: believe myself in the message that I was trying to 186 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,850 S2: get other young people to believe in. So it wasn't 187 00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:48,569 S2: until I was probably 24 or 25 that I felt 188 00:09:48,570 --> 00:09:52,530 S2: comfortable to let that part of myself be known, and 189 00:09:53,450 --> 00:09:57,809 S2: that was after nine years of being hidden in that 190 00:09:57,809 --> 00:10:00,010 S2: part of my identity to everyone. No one knew that 191 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:02,209 S2: except the people that I'd been in relationships with. And 192 00:10:02,210 --> 00:10:04,210 S2: I found that really, really hard. 193 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:08,850 S1: So apologies if I'm assuming incorrectly here, but your you 194 00:10:08,850 --> 00:10:12,969 S1: had mental health challenges as a young person. Were they 195 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,929 S1: linked to the identity challenges or were they separate? 196 00:10:15,970 --> 00:10:20,209 S2: For sure. They were very clearly linked, but nobody knew 197 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:22,410 S2: at the time. So everyone was like, you know, Ruby 198 00:10:22,410 --> 00:10:24,969 S2: has anxiety, but she, you know, has a roof over 199 00:10:24,970 --> 00:10:27,050 S2: her head. She has a great education. She has all 200 00:10:27,050 --> 00:10:29,770 S2: these friends. She has a great family. Like, people didn't 201 00:10:29,770 --> 00:10:33,610 S2: really understand because I was hiding that part of myself. 202 00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:38,050 S2: But the anxiety came from that. Me being like, I 203 00:10:38,050 --> 00:10:40,730 S2: have such a close circle of friends and family, but 204 00:10:40,730 --> 00:10:43,890 S2: I have this big thing that I'm hiding from them. 205 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:46,210 S2: And like, what if all of my relationships change when 206 00:10:46,210 --> 00:10:48,570 S2: they find out about me? What if people think of 207 00:10:48,570 --> 00:10:52,209 S2: me as less funny, less intelligent, less capable? Like I 208 00:10:52,210 --> 00:10:55,849 S2: had all of these beliefs that I needed to navigate 209 00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:59,650 S2: before I felt comfortable. But and, you know, I started 210 00:10:59,650 --> 00:11:02,490 S2: working with a psychologist who has really helped me be 211 00:11:02,530 --> 00:11:05,890 S2: able to lean into that identity. And now everyone I 212 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:08,930 S2: know and love knows that part of me. And I'm 213 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:12,770 S2: in a very supportive relationship with a woman. And it 214 00:11:12,770 --> 00:11:15,689 S2: just is so like, it's like the least interesting thing 215 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:19,689 S2: about me now. But definitely at the time that anxiety 216 00:11:19,690 --> 00:11:23,810 S2: came from this fear and shame and yeah, just feeling 217 00:11:23,809 --> 00:11:26,170 S2: like I was like living a double life without even 218 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:27,929 S2: meaning to or wanting to. 219 00:11:40,690 --> 00:11:46,739 S1: What is the biggest misconception older managers have about your 220 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:48,340 S1: generation's work ethic. 221 00:11:49,540 --> 00:11:53,819 S2: I think the biggest misconception is that Gen Z lacks 222 00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:57,620 S2: work ethic, when in reality I just think that we 223 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:00,900 S2: define it differently. Like, I do think that older generations 224 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:06,739 S2: often saw work ethic as like endurance, staying late, pushing through, 225 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:10,059 S2: being the last one at the desk. Whereas I think 226 00:12:10,059 --> 00:12:15,660 S2: that Gen Z sees work ethic as more like intentionality, 227 00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:20,380 S2: like we care deeply about purpose and psychological safety and 228 00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:25,780 S2: impact and alignment that I would say that my gen peers, 229 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:30,660 S2: as a generalization work incredibly hard, but they won't pour 230 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:37,060 S2: themselves into work that feels extractive or unsupported or disconnected 231 00:12:37,059 --> 00:12:41,189 S2: from their own values. So I think that like sometimes 232 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:44,590 S2: they would be maybe told or thought of as lazy. 233 00:12:44,590 --> 00:12:47,790 S2: But I think that it's more that they are discerning 234 00:12:47,790 --> 00:12:50,670 S2: and thoughtful, and they want to contribute to things that 235 00:12:50,670 --> 00:12:55,630 S2: are meaningful instead of like burning out on performing, if 236 00:12:55,630 --> 00:12:56,350 S2: that makes sense. 237 00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:59,310 S1: So no, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. 238 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:04,630 S1: Burning out was the thing we did at your age, 239 00:13:04,670 --> 00:13:07,630 S1: and we and we prided ourselves in burning out. So no, 240 00:13:07,630 --> 00:13:09,510 S1: it makes no sense to me whatsoever. 241 00:13:10,270 --> 00:13:12,550 S2: I know, I feel like there is this shift and 242 00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:14,790 S2: I feel like maybe Gen Z are leading it. They're like, no, 243 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:17,150 S2: we're like getting a massage and we're like doing acupuncture. 244 00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:20,750 S2: I think for me personally, like I felt really burnt 245 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:23,150 S2: out at the end of last year. And that was 246 00:13:23,150 --> 00:13:26,830 S2: from doing too much overcommitting like I worked out that 247 00:13:26,830 --> 00:13:31,430 S2: I spent like 47% of the year traveling. And this 248 00:13:31,429 --> 00:13:34,870 S2: year I'm thinking about productivity a lot differently. And I 249 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:38,150 S2: feel like already I'm a lot more focused and I'm 250 00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:40,160 S2: getting a lot more done, and it's of a lot 251 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,000 S2: higher quality because I do have stronger balance in my life. 252 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,800 S1: So you're a leader. You said you've got a team 253 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,520 S1: of volunteers and you've got some part time workers. What 254 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,319 S1: do you say to them if they say, oh, I need, 255 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,000 S1: I need time out. I'm, I'm struggling or I'm stressed 256 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,760 S1: or just not going to come to that meeting today. 257 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,640 S2: Oh, I think it's tricky because the people in my team, like, 258 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,280 S2: I don't think that the people in my team, the 259 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,000 S2: quality of work is ever compromised by that. Like I 260 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,040 S2: don't have people in my team who are saying, I'm 261 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720 S2: not well enough to come to that meeting because I 262 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,720 S2: feel like the culture that I'm trying to build is like, 263 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,600 S2: it is all of our responsibilities to care for and 264 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,560 S2: prioritize our own well-being and mental health that, like, I 265 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,080 S2: think balance means being able to show up for everything 266 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,680 S2: at work whilst doing things outside of work hours that 267 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,680 S2: mean that you can do that. And also, I feel 268 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,610 S2: like it's different. Like I can't speak to any cultural 269 00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:44,530 S2: workplace because for us, hitting goals and getting things done 270 00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:47,170 S2: is about a lot more than just a KPI and 271 00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:49,570 S2: the work that we're doing. Like, I think that for 272 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:52,610 S2: my team, the incentive is less about closing the deal 273 00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:55,730 S2: and more about knowing that by doing so, it's the 274 00:14:55,730 --> 00:15:00,410 S2: difference between thousands of girls accessing support they deserve as 275 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:01,450 S2: opposed to not. 276 00:15:01,490 --> 00:15:05,050 S1: Yep, a great answer. And as you were talking, I've 277 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:07,770 S1: got a I've got a masterclass, um, with the W 278 00:15:07,810 --> 00:15:12,010 S1: community after this. And we're talking about leading younger team 279 00:15:12,010 --> 00:15:18,010 S1: members and supporting, um, the tomorrow's leaders. And when I 280 00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:21,610 S1: say we did burn out, we burnt out, but we 281 00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:24,330 S1: went to the pub or to lunch on Fridays and 282 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:26,770 S1: we didn't go back. So if you took that, if 283 00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:29,570 S1: you took that five hours of doing nothing on a 284 00:15:29,570 --> 00:15:33,690 S1: Friday afternoon and spread it over the week, you know, 285 00:15:33,890 --> 00:15:35,530 S1: you'd probably get the same outcome. 286 00:15:35,810 --> 00:15:36,820 S2: That's so true. 287 00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:42,140 S1: Um, how do you ensure your voice is heard? I mean, 288 00:15:42,180 --> 00:15:44,540 S1: I as we started out this podcast, I said you 289 00:15:44,580 --> 00:15:48,540 S1: were part of a training program for young rural women. Oh, sorry. 290 00:15:48,580 --> 00:15:51,100 S1: For rural women, you just happen to be young. And 291 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:54,580 S1: there were plenty of voices in that intake that were 292 00:15:54,780 --> 00:15:58,860 S1: older and more experienced than you. But you made your 293 00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:02,420 S1: voice heard throughout that program. Tell me a little bit 294 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:06,740 S1: about how you find your way into a conversation and 295 00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:15,180 S1: make yourself known without necessarily being the showiest or the pushiest, um, 296 00:16:15,420 --> 00:16:16,380 S1: person in the room. 297 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:21,060 S2: I'm definitely still learning about this, and I would love 298 00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:24,060 S2: to get your thoughts on this offline and your advice, 299 00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:26,619 S2: but I feel like naturally I'm more of an introverted 300 00:16:26,620 --> 00:16:30,860 S2: person and I'm a really deep listener. So when it 301 00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:35,190 S2: comes to meetings and big conversations, I'm often not the 302 00:16:35,190 --> 00:16:38,270 S2: loudest person in the room, and at the start I 303 00:16:38,270 --> 00:16:42,510 S2: had insecurity about that because I kind of felt like 304 00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,110 S2: my idea of leadership at the beginning was like the 305 00:16:46,110 --> 00:16:50,670 S2: person who's talking and dictating the conversation and directing the conversation, 306 00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:56,070 S2: whereas now I'm naturally more the person who listens and 307 00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:59,590 S2: then hopes to add value. When I do speak, but 308 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:02,910 S2: I am still trying to find that balance. Like even 309 00:17:02,910 --> 00:17:06,150 S2: last week I had a meeting with about ten other people, 310 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:10,230 S2: and I'm newer to this group of people and this meeting, 311 00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:14,270 S2: and I'm still finding that I'm feeling really intimidated in 312 00:17:14,310 --> 00:17:16,310 S2: that setting. And it's not because of the people in 313 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:20,070 S2: the meeting. It's just this imposter syndrome. Everyone in the 314 00:17:20,070 --> 00:17:22,750 S2: room is a lot older than me and a lot more. 315 00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:26,430 S2: They have a lot more years of experience. And so 316 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:30,869 S2: I am finding it hard to manage that imposter syndrome. 317 00:17:30,869 --> 00:17:34,870 S2: But before the meeting, I just, I felt nervous and 318 00:17:34,869 --> 00:17:37,430 S2: I was like, all I want to achieve in this 319 00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:40,750 S2: meeting is to add one piece of value. And to 320 00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:44,590 S2: some people, that probably sounds like nothing, but I walked 321 00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:47,229 S2: away from the meeting having literally only spoken once, but 322 00:17:47,230 --> 00:17:49,750 S2: I could feel proud of myself because that's the goal 323 00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:52,429 S2: or the intention that I had set for myself. But 324 00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:56,430 S2: I think it's just like flexing the muscle. Like everything 325 00:17:56,430 --> 00:17:59,190 S2: in life, it's a learned skill. Confidence for me isn't 326 00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:01,590 S2: something that like always has come naturally. So it's just 327 00:18:01,590 --> 00:18:04,430 S2: about trying to back yourself. And when you do speak 328 00:18:04,430 --> 00:18:06,030 S2: and you have people say like, oh, that's a really 329 00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:10,149 S2: interesting perspective or like, then you get that confidence to 330 00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:11,629 S2: keep doing it. 331 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:13,830 S1: Look, there's lots of points I'd make about that. But one, 332 00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:17,710 S1: I think everyone, um, likes confidence at some point and 333 00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:20,470 S1: you can have it. You can walk into a meeting 334 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:23,950 S1: confident and then something happens and suddenly you lose it 335 00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:25,830 S1: and it just vanishes from you and you don't know 336 00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:27,990 S1: where it went or why it went, but it's just gone. 337 00:18:28,270 --> 00:18:32,280 S1: And someone is triggered something and you can find yourself struggling. 338 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,399 S1: I do think broadly though, really taking your time, establishing 339 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,680 S1: your credentials, listening to the room around you sets you 340 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,240 S1: up for success. You don't have to win the room 341 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,600 S1: in that first meeting. You've got a bunch of meetings 342 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,280 S1: to do that. And if you develop a you develop 343 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:53,160 S1: a reputation for only speaking when you have something to say. 344 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,280 S1: It's probably where you want to be. Ultimately, it's probably 345 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,160 S1: the reputation that you ultimately want to build. But if 346 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,960 S1: someone has watched you for a while now, you know 347 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,199 S1: you do navigate most of these circumstances with, um, you know, 348 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,160 S1: real emotional intelligence and real leadership. Can you talk about 349 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,800 S1: leaders that you admire or people that you've seen demonstrate 350 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,160 S1: the sorts of leadership skills that you'd like to work 351 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,720 S1: on or be like. 352 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:27,600 S2: Oh, this honestly, so, so many young leaders, you know, there's, um, 353 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,889 S2: a young leader, Darian Brooker, who's the CEO of an 354 00:19:30,890 --> 00:19:34,930 S2: organization called We Future Leaders. She's also using her lived 355 00:19:34,930 --> 00:19:38,970 S2: experience to create really incredible change here in Australia. Marli 356 00:19:38,970 --> 00:19:42,090 S2: Silva SIM, I don't know how you say her last 357 00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:46,410 S2: name from friends that invest. She's got like an online 358 00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:51,010 S2: platform that is particularly geared around showing women and girls 359 00:19:51,010 --> 00:19:53,850 S2: how they can invest. I feel like there's just so many, 360 00:19:54,530 --> 00:19:56,770 S2: and a lot of them are just showing up really 361 00:19:56,770 --> 00:20:02,010 S2: authentically online and being really transparent with the journey of 362 00:20:02,010 --> 00:20:05,490 S2: building and growing and owning and leading organizations that I 363 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:09,290 S2: feel like exposing myself to leaders like that, especially having 364 00:20:09,290 --> 00:20:11,970 S2: them on my news feed, it really normalizes the experience 365 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:15,010 S2: that some days are really hard, some days are really great, 366 00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:17,209 S2: and some days are kind of just average that I 367 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:18,810 S2: feel like the leaders that I look up to are 368 00:20:18,810 --> 00:20:21,409 S2: the people that just like normalize that whole human experience, 369 00:20:21,410 --> 00:20:25,250 S2: as opposed to just posting the highlight reels on LinkedIn 370 00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:28,619 S2: or things like that. It doesn't feel, you know, authentic 371 00:20:28,619 --> 00:20:29,020 S2: to me. 372 00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:41,460 S1: I'm just going to go backwards a bit because I 373 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:43,700 S1: feel like I've, I've sort of missed the transition period, 374 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:46,939 S1: this transition here. Anyone who listens to this podcast regularly 375 00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:49,660 S1: knows that I can go down rabbit holes and then 376 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:52,700 S1: go backwards and forwards, uh, with kind of no real 377 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:56,220 S1: rhyme or reason, but I just want to understand. So you, 378 00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:59,379 S1: you're growing up on the farm, you then have the 379 00:20:59,380 --> 00:21:02,380 S1: challenges around how you fit in and navigating that. So 380 00:21:02,380 --> 00:21:07,300 S1: that again, pushes you into leading. You launch, uh, womankind. 381 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:09,540 S1: And then you have those early days where you're like, whoa, 382 00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:12,780 S1: what am I doing? Is it really going to work? Um, 383 00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:17,340 S1: to today where you're a finalist as young New South 384 00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:20,980 S1: Wales Woman of the year in that period of time, 385 00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:24,380 S1: like you obviously really started to embrace your embrace the 386 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:27,830 S1: concept that you're a leader. Can you, can you go 387 00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:30,350 S1: back to a moment where you kind of go, well, actually, 388 00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:34,590 S1: I have this voice. I have this platform. I'm winning awards. Um, 389 00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:36,830 S1: was there a moment where you that something happened that 390 00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:40,190 S1: we went right? Well, this is who I am and 391 00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:43,590 S1: I can talk about identity. I can talk about anxiety, 392 00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:46,270 S1: and I'm going to run with this potentially for a 393 00:21:46,270 --> 00:21:49,070 S1: pretty long period of time, if not all of my life. 394 00:21:49,550 --> 00:21:52,910 S2: Yeah. I feel like the more, the more I leant 395 00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:58,190 S2: into my authentic self and started telling small, really small 396 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:03,110 S2: bits and pieces about myself as a person and the 397 00:22:03,109 --> 00:22:06,710 S2: different parts that make me who I am. The more 398 00:22:06,750 --> 00:22:10,550 S2: that people actually kind of like took me seriously and 399 00:22:10,550 --> 00:22:12,870 S2: felt connected to me, like I felt like the more 400 00:22:12,910 --> 00:22:15,629 S2: that I leant into who I was, the more people 401 00:22:15,630 --> 00:22:18,590 S2: actually respected me as a leader. And I just think 402 00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:22,110 S2: that it's so crazy and ironic because there was a 403 00:22:22,109 --> 00:22:26,000 S2: really significant period of my life, like years and years, 404 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,640 S2: that I truly believed wholeheartedly that I would never embrace 405 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,200 S2: my identity as LGBT. Like I was just like that 406 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,280 S2: will that will never be something that I do. And 407 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,880 S2: so to now be able to talk about that openly, 408 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,040 S2: but also to be in a role within government as 409 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,760 S2: a deputy commissioner for lived experience, directly influencing policies that 410 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,840 S2: impact the lives of people across New South Wales. Because 411 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,879 S2: of that lived experience, it is really crazy to think about. 412 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,440 S2: I don't remember there being a specific moment. I do 413 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,440 S2: remember we had a woman kind of in a couple 414 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,400 S2: of years ago, and it was the first time that 415 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,080 S2: I spoke about that part of myself, and I was 416 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,159 S2: so nervous. And I had written two speeches for the 417 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,879 S2: day and I was like, I'm either going to choose 418 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,320 S2: to be brave or I'm going to be, you know, 419 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,640 S2: lead with fear again. And I chose to be brave 420 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,960 S2: that day. And I spoke about the experience, and I 421 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,960 S2: think that there was about 100 people at the event, 422 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,040 S2: and I kid you not, probably 95 of them messaged 423 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,720 S2: me after and said that it either impacted them directly 424 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,080 S2: because they've been in a similar situation or their friend has, or, 425 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,280 S2: you know, that they felt that they had connected to 426 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,200 S2: some part of my story in this way that felt 427 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,639 S2: really profound. And so I feel like having the support 428 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,560 S2: of my community and feeling closer to them because of 429 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,600 S2: that was a real reminder that like, the leader that 430 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,880 S2: I want to be is the leader that I needed 431 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,600 S2: as a young person. So if I'm showing up and 432 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,600 S2: making her proud, I'm hopefully creating space for other young 433 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,480 S2: people to feel like they can embrace who they are 434 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,040 S2: as well. 435 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,480 S1: I want to talk briefly about being brave then. Um, 436 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,720 S1: if you in real time, recognize that that was brave 437 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,240 S1: and that you needed to be brave, how do you 438 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,920 S1: think about bravery now as a leader? And do you 439 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,760 S1: push yourself to be brave, uh, in your role today? 440 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:25,490 S2: Definitely. I feel like I feel like if I'm ready 441 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:28,490 S2: for an if I feel ready for an opportunity, I 442 00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:31,450 S2: believe that I've already outgrown it. Like I do not 443 00:24:31,450 --> 00:24:34,370 S2: think any of us should be going into an environment 444 00:24:34,369 --> 00:24:38,490 S2: or a space or an opportunity and feeling 100% ready 445 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:41,490 S2: to be in that space. That's just my opinion. But 446 00:24:41,490 --> 00:24:44,090 S2: I do think that there is a threshold when it 447 00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:46,930 S2: comes to bravery. Like I don't believe in pushing yourself 448 00:24:46,930 --> 00:24:49,530 S2: so far out of your comfort zone that it feels overwhelming. 449 00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:54,090 S2: But I make a conscious effort to choose the brave option. Um, 450 00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:58,610 S2: as one example, I've got something coming up in June 451 00:24:58,609 --> 00:25:03,530 S2: or something, and there was an opportunity to either have 452 00:25:03,530 --> 00:25:07,890 S2: a video presented or to deliver a keynote or to do. 453 00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:09,409 S2: I can't remember what the other option is. And I 454 00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:11,730 S2: immediately was like, oh, well, I'm obviously doing the video. Like, 455 00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:13,729 S2: I will be so scared to speak in front of 456 00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:17,010 S2: 600 people and do this keynote about this topic. And 457 00:25:17,810 --> 00:25:19,850 S2: I ended up putting my hand up for it. And 458 00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:21,619 S2: they want me to do it now, which is great, 459 00:25:21,619 --> 00:25:24,420 S2: but obviously I feel nervous in the lead up to that. 460 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:27,300 S2: But I knew that I had to do that because 461 00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:30,180 S2: if I didn't do it, I would have just kept 462 00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:32,980 S2: with the safe bet and and having that opportunity will 463 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:35,540 S2: obviously help me, help me grow. So definitely bravery is 464 00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:40,100 S2: something that I try and exercise on a daily basis. 465 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:42,980 S1: And I will just say to anyone listening, Ruby is 466 00:25:43,020 --> 00:25:46,020 S1: going to do a speech at the f w International 467 00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:49,820 S1: Women's Leadership Summit coming up. So she's, um, she's, uh, 468 00:25:49,859 --> 00:25:54,139 S1: going to be brave again. Yeah, but, but Ruby being 469 00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:57,860 S1: brave with that comes risk. Right? And, and it, and 470 00:25:57,859 --> 00:26:01,260 S1: it can backfire. Um, have you, have you experienced the 471 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:02,500 S1: downside of bravery? 472 00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:08,260 S2: I like definitely, like, obviously there's been times that I've 473 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:12,700 S2: made like a lapse of judgment, especially in the early days, 474 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:16,859 S2: but I don't really feel like the moments that I've 475 00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:21,310 S2: been brave as a leader have ever not resulted in 476 00:26:21,310 --> 00:26:23,070 S2: a good outcome. Like there have been times when I've 477 00:26:23,070 --> 00:26:25,710 S2: been brave and put my hand up for opportunities and 478 00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:28,990 S2: been knocked back, but I've never felt like I've never 479 00:26:28,990 --> 00:26:33,230 S2: felt disappointed by that or, you know, like I feel 480 00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:38,230 S2: like you, you can only be disappointed when you don't try. 481 00:26:38,270 --> 00:26:41,070 S2: Like if you try and you fail, it doesn't bother me. 482 00:26:41,070 --> 00:26:43,150 S2: But that's where I think the bravery comes into it. 483 00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:46,109 S2: But I really don't think there's anything to lose when 484 00:26:46,109 --> 00:26:48,149 S2: you choose to be brave, but you do it in 485 00:26:48,150 --> 00:26:50,710 S2: a way that's true to yourself. Like I wouldn't like. 486 00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:53,670 S2: I think being brave is stepping out of your own 487 00:26:53,670 --> 00:26:58,710 S2: comfort zone, which is obviously subjective and it's incremental. Like, 488 00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:01,230 S2: it's not like I would go from never having spoken 489 00:27:01,230 --> 00:27:03,630 S2: in front of an audience to then speaking in front 490 00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:07,030 S2: of 600 people, as I will be in June or July, 491 00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:10,870 S2: like I feel like it's all. I don't know, an evolution. 492 00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:14,389 S2: But yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of challenges, 493 00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:18,080 S2: especially in the early days, like lessons learned, but none 494 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,360 S2: of them, I think, have been a result of bravery. 495 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,560 S2: If that makes sense. 496 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,919 S1: And I'm just going to, as I listen to you talk, 497 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,680 S1: say bravery is something that you naturally have because you 498 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800 S1: sort of don't know what you don't know. It's also, 499 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,600 S1: it's less risky to do great things as a young 500 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,200 S1: person because a, you're expected to. So it is actually 501 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,800 S1: a gift. Um, in a way. The idea that you 502 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,879 S1: can just have a go at launching a business because 503 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,399 S1: there is no downside for a young woman launching a 504 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,719 S1: business that doesn't work because you had a go and 505 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,240 S1: you learnt a bunch of things, right? 506 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,760 S2: Exactly. And I feel like at the start, you know, 507 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,800 S2: I was told on a few occasions, like you're too 508 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,000 S2: young to pull something of this scale off, whatever. Like 509 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,000 S2: all that doubt. But I felt like my age was 510 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,000 S2: actually the biggest advantage to the work that I was doing. 511 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,760 S2: And also at the time that I started it, you know, 512 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,479 S2: I didn't I don't have kids. I didn't have a partner, 513 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,650 S2: I didn't have a mortgage. Like I had this really 514 00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:20,530 S2: unique opportunity to try something. And if it failed, like, 515 00:28:20,570 --> 00:28:24,210 S2: then I'm probably more employable because I've had all these 516 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:26,970 S2: different experiences as a business owner than if I had 517 00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:29,129 S2: of just like stuck on the conventional path. 518 00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:31,490 S1: Absolutely. And I, and I will just say, the moment 519 00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:34,490 S1: that you've got the, the children, the mortgage, the cat, 520 00:28:34,530 --> 00:28:39,410 S1: the dog. Yeah, responsibilities, it really gets hard. For sure. 521 00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:40,930 S1: I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions 522 00:28:40,930 --> 00:28:44,330 S1: to finish off. Best piece of feedback you've received in 523 00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:44,930 S1: your career. 524 00:28:45,370 --> 00:28:49,050 S2: Oh gosh. I feel like to just give it a go. 525 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:53,770 S2: Like at the start, I felt really scared to start 526 00:28:53,770 --> 00:28:56,050 S2: a business and I have reflected on it more lately, 527 00:28:56,050 --> 00:28:58,690 S2: and I feel like the fear at the beginning actually 528 00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:02,930 S2: came less from thinking that I couldn't do it, but 529 00:29:02,930 --> 00:29:05,450 S2: actually more that thinking that I could do it. And 530 00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:07,130 S2: what would happen if I built this thing that was 531 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:10,570 S2: like way bigger than myself? I think like, the best 532 00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:12,450 S2: piece of advice was just to like, give it a go. 533 00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:13,930 S2: Like you've got nothing to lose. 534 00:29:14,660 --> 00:29:17,260 S1: If you were running this country, what's the one thing 535 00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:17,780 S1: you'd do? 536 00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:21,580 S2: I would make sure that as part of the curriculum, 537 00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:24,740 S2: children of all ages were learning more about mental health 538 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:27,180 S2: and that it was a priority because we know that 539 00:29:27,180 --> 00:29:29,980 S2: when we invest in prevention, when it comes to mental health, 540 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,860 S2: it costs the government a lot less in the long run. 541 00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:36,300 S1: Thank you for joining me today. It's always a pleasure 542 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,820 S1: to talk to you. You're such an impressive person and leader. 543 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:41,260 S1: I can't wait to see what you do with the 544 00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:42,900 S1: next ten years. And I'll see you at the leadership 545 00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:43,460 S1: so much. 546 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:46,100 S2: I can't wait. Thank you so much. Helen. Thank you. 547 00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:01,020 S1: All right. So in this season, I want to do 548 00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:03,140 S1: something a little bit different. And I want to bring 549 00:30:03,180 --> 00:30:08,300 S1: our super producer, Odessa Blain, out from behind the desk 550 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:13,780 S1: and into the studio. Uh, to give listeners some real 551 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:18,940 S1: tips and tricks about how to tackle your challenges as 552 00:30:18,980 --> 00:30:24,620 S1: future leaders in your organizations. Odessa Blain, welcome to the podcast. 553 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:27,500 S1: Great to have you in the podcast studio for the 554 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,820 S1: first time. Just quickly tell our listeners, how did you 555 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:34,140 S1: come to be at MW and how many podcasts have 556 00:30:34,140 --> 00:30:35,180 S1: you produced so far? 557 00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:37,860 S3: Thanks, Helen. It's great to be here. I came to 558 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:41,340 S3: b f w after an interview with you about a 559 00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:45,940 S3: year ago. I came from a news reporting background and 560 00:30:45,940 --> 00:30:49,260 S3: I got thrown into the leadership podcast pretty much straight away. 561 00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:52,940 S3: I'd say I'd be near the 50 episode mark by now. 562 00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:55,220 S3: I should probably know, but I don't. 563 00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:59,660 S1: Can you recall any key leadership advice or interviews that 564 00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:01,140 S1: have stuck in your mind? 565 00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:04,140 S3: Yes. Putting me on the spot a little bit, but 566 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:08,780 S3: one that immediately jumps out is, and I was thinking 567 00:31:08,780 --> 00:31:14,110 S3: about just the other day was with Georgie Holt last 568 00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:17,270 S3: season when she was talking to you, and it was 569 00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:19,190 S3: quite a small point she made, but she was talking 570 00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:23,470 S3: about when you have to give someone hard news or 571 00:31:23,470 --> 00:31:26,510 S3: have a difficult conversation with someone. And she said one 572 00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:29,790 S3: of the most important things to do is to always 573 00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:33,430 S3: give them options and choices in that moment. 574 00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:36,230 S1: So that they feel like they've got some agency over 575 00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:37,510 S1: their next steps. 576 00:31:37,550 --> 00:31:39,750 S3: Yeah. So I feel like they've got some agency and 577 00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:43,870 S3: also probably so you define the parameters a bit of 578 00:31:43,870 --> 00:31:44,910 S3: what's to come next. 579 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:48,070 S1: That was a great interview. Um thank you. So we 580 00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:52,390 S1: will be talking about some leadership tips and insights that 581 00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:56,430 S1: we've learnt that we've researched, but we'll also be answering 582 00:31:56,430 --> 00:32:00,950 S1: questions from our listeners. Odessa, what's my first question? 583 00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:03,270 S3: Your first question? We've had a lot of people write 584 00:32:03,270 --> 00:32:05,989 S3: in about one on one meetings. They want to know 585 00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:11,280 S3: your tips, advice, thoughts. The One question that's come through 586 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,720 S3: is from a new manager who is setting up their 587 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,080 S3: first one on one meetings with their new direct reports, 588 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,080 S3: and they want to know what your general advice is 589 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,480 S3: about what makes a one on one effective. 590 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,000 S1: Great question. Thank you. Well, firstly, every manager is different. 591 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,640 S1: And if you're listening to this podcast, then you're developing 592 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,560 S1: your style of leadership. I'm a very relaxed manager and 593 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,600 S1: I like to let my direct reports get on with 594 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,160 S1: the job. So I am really about just assisting them. However, 595 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,120 S1: not everyone is like me, so the way I recommend 596 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,160 S1: you go about it as a first leader is ask 597 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,479 S1: your direct report how they want the meeting to run, 598 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,959 S1: what they want out of the meeting. Once you've established that, 599 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,640 S1: set up an agenda, have 2 or 3 items that 600 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,360 S1: you go through every week or every fortnight, depending on 601 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,800 S1: how often you meet and make sure that you give 602 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,160 S1: them a chance to run through the list of things 603 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,650 S1: that they need from you and potentially have some things 604 00:33:09,650 --> 00:33:14,050 S1: you need from them. I also recommend considering a feedback 605 00:33:14,050 --> 00:33:17,330 S1: loop where you have a standing item at the end 606 00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:22,130 S1: of the agenda where you can say, hey Odessa, perhaps 607 00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:25,050 S1: you should work on this and you did really well 608 00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:27,969 S1: at that. So it's both both a positive and a 609 00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:31,450 S1: negative in every meeting. And it gives your direct report 610 00:33:31,450 --> 00:33:35,570 S1: something to work on immediately. Does that help Odessa? 611 00:33:35,610 --> 00:33:37,930 S3: Yes that does. There are a couple of best practice 612 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:40,850 S3: notes in our Harvard Business Review article. And you ticked 613 00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:43,290 S3: off quite a few of them. One of the ones 614 00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:45,690 S3: you ticked off was having an agenda and also a 615 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,610 S3: standing item at the end. A couple of other points 616 00:33:48,610 --> 00:33:51,130 S3: that were mentioned were to try and have a regular 617 00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:54,290 S3: rhythm to the meetings. This serves a couple of purposes. 618 00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:57,930 S3: One is particularly for newer employees, it can make them 619 00:33:57,930 --> 00:34:01,290 S3: feel less anxious, um, less like it's a big thing 620 00:34:01,290 --> 00:34:04,090 S3: and that a meeting suddenly being dropped into their calendar. 621 00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:07,980 S3: And the other reason is that it simply shows your 622 00:34:07,980 --> 00:34:11,620 S3: employee that that time matters. If you do have to cancel, 623 00:34:11,620 --> 00:34:15,739 S3: try to reschedule it straight away. And then of course, 624 00:34:15,739 --> 00:34:17,980 S3: a couple of quick points for at the meeting are 625 00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:21,299 S3: to always be present. Turn off notifications on your phone, 626 00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:24,660 S3: listen more than you talk and end well. A tip 627 00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:29,020 S3: is to do the final five minutes to recap action items. 628 00:34:29,219 --> 00:34:32,620 S1: Uh, that's really good advice. And I've just stressed that 629 00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:35,140 S1: every team member is a little bit different. I think 630 00:34:35,140 --> 00:34:37,620 S1: leading is a bit like leading a football club or 631 00:34:37,660 --> 00:34:41,420 S1: a football team. You have to adapt to each person. 632 00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:43,940 S3: It's a bit of give and take. So both I 633 00:34:43,940 --> 00:34:48,020 S3: think it's the responsibility of the manager to try and 634 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:52,540 S3: see what their employee is like and under what circumstances 635 00:34:52,820 --> 00:34:55,380 S3: they can kind of get the most information from them, 636 00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:59,060 S3: but it's also up to the employee to fit into 637 00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:00,380 S3: their manager's working style. 638 00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:03,060 S1: Yes. I think the person that is best on this 639 00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:06,069 S1: is Jamila Rizvi, who is always very articulate on the 640 00:35:06,070 --> 00:35:10,390 S1: topic of your job is to make your boss's life easier. 641 00:35:10,590 --> 00:35:13,189 S1: And while it's very important for a boss to be 642 00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:18,190 S1: good at their job and good leaders, it is incumbent 643 00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:22,750 S1: on an employee to understand what is going on in 644 00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:27,230 S1: the organization and the sorts of pressures that the leaders 645 00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:31,150 S1: might be under, and to preempt them, or to assist 646 00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:36,550 S1: in them, if and where possible. How many minutes should 647 00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:39,270 S1: a one on one be? Should it be 15 minutes, 648 00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:41,190 S1: 30 minutes? Or should you set aside an hour? 649 00:35:41,350 --> 00:35:44,310 S3: 30 minutes is a good time. But of course, as 650 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:47,430 S3: you said at the top, Helen, it's different for every 651 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:51,270 S3: manager and employee. And some weeks there's more to discuss, 652 00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:52,910 S3: other weeks there's less. 653 00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:55,790 S1: I'm going to make a point I often make in 654 00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:59,230 S1: the leadership podcast, and that is to do best practice 655 00:35:59,230 --> 00:36:03,069 S1: at all these things is actually quite time consuming. And 656 00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:06,080 S1: if you had perfect one on one meetings and you 657 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,320 S1: had them at the intervals that your direct reports would want. 658 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,760 S1: And for the time that your direct reports would like, 659 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,440 S1: there wouldn't be actually that much time left in your diary. 660 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,640 S1: So you do have to be pretty disciplined about these 661 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,640 S1: and frame them pretty clearly as a new leader. It'll 662 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,719 S1: be really tempting to do lots of meetings and to 663 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,919 S1: give your staff a lot of time and to hear 664 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,720 S1: them out. But I do recommend starting how you intend 665 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,520 S1: to finish and keeping tight meetings 15, 20, 30 minutes 666 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,440 S1: to us should be should be enough. Uh, once a 667 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,800 S1: week or fortnightly. But if you've got more senior staff 668 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,000 S1: or bigger projects, be ready to change those meetings up 669 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,319 S1: a little. Um, while the workload, you know, increases or 670 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,080 S1: is heavy for a bit, we've got a particular project underway. Um, 671 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,680 S1: but I do recommend a type A tight agenda. And 672 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,400 S1: as I say, think about a feedback loop. 673 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,840 S3: Another question that we've had come through, Helen, that touches 674 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,640 S3: a different aspect of one on ones is someone was asking, 675 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,240 S3: at what point should managers expect their one on ones 676 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,879 S3: with an employee to be confidential? Have you ever been 677 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,319 S3: in a situation where you've been surprised to find a 678 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,040 S3: bit of information you've shared has suddenly spread across the business? 679 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,920 S1: I'm never surprised. I'm often disappointed that it has been, 680 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,640 S1: but I'm never really surprised because if it's absolutely human 681 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,520 S1: nature to want to share information and gossip or titbits 682 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,719 S1: or insights. So every manager should be aware that any 683 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,680 S1: information that they divulge in a one on one is 684 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,120 S1: potentially going to be shared in a, in across the business. 685 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,560 S1: So absolutely be prepared for that. But I do strongly 686 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,640 S1: recommend if there is confidential information being shared, you identify 687 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,720 S1: it early in the meeting. You repeat that at some 688 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,770 S1: other point in the meeting or during that conversation and 689 00:38:01,770 --> 00:38:05,730 S1: probably reinforce it at the end of the meeting. But 690 00:38:05,730 --> 00:38:09,330 S1: humans are humans. Sharing information is what we do. And 691 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:11,810 S1: as a leader, you need to be very mindful of that. 692 00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:14,730 S3: Now we'll be doing this segment weekly. So if you 693 00:38:14,730 --> 00:38:19,330 S3: have any questions, please send them through to hello at women.com. 694 00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:22,730 S3: We also love voice notes, so if you'd like to 695 00:38:22,730 --> 00:38:24,969 S3: send for a voice note, record it on your phone, 696 00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:27,850 S3: email it through and I'll try to get to them. 697 00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:30,530 S1: I discipline, thank you so much for joining me this year. 698 00:38:30,530 --> 00:38:33,250 S1: It's great to have you here. And as we get 699 00:38:33,250 --> 00:38:35,370 S1: into the rhythm of this, I'm looking forward to some 700 00:38:35,410 --> 00:38:38,770 S1: general feedback on my own leadership style as someone who 701 00:38:38,770 --> 00:38:41,890 S1: reports directly to me. Um, that should go really well 702 00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:42,890 S1: for me, don't you think? 703 00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:43,850 S2: Yes, I. 704 00:38:43,850 --> 00:38:44,290 S3: Will. 705 00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:46,569 S1: Just make you very uncomfortable. 706 00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:48,650 S2: Also, I was thinking. 707 00:38:48,690 --> 00:38:51,489 S1: I was just thinking about my my one on one style. 708 00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:53,450 S2: Yeah, stick to a regular rhythm. 709 00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:54,410 S3: Maybe that's the. 710 00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:55,210 S2: Regularity. 711 00:38:55,250 --> 00:39:01,340 S1: The regular. I just recommend making sure that you explain 712 00:39:01,340 --> 00:39:05,299 S1: to yourself. So if you're going to be hard to 713 00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:08,180 S1: pin down and you're going to be away for the week. Um, 714 00:39:08,219 --> 00:39:12,299 S1: your direct reports should sort of be aware and psychologically 715 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,700 S1: prepared for their, um, for their one on ones to 716 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:17,739 S1: be cancelled. You know, I think that way it's not as, 717 00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:20,299 S1: as you say, not as not as stressful if they're 718 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,340 S1: kind of aware that if their boss is on the 719 00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:25,380 S1: road for a week, the chances of the one on 720 00:39:25,380 --> 00:39:29,299 S1: ones taking place, you know, is slim. Does that help? 721 00:39:29,340 --> 00:39:31,700 S3: Yeah. Yes. And it goes to the give and take 722 00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:34,380 S3: about knowing your style and also your managers. 723 00:39:38,660 --> 00:39:41,260 S1: This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal 724 00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:44,900 S1: people of the Aurora nation. It was produced by Odessa Blain, 725 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:47,420 S1: Susan Warby and led by Paddy Andrews.