1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,320 S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, and you're listening to Inside Politics from 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,920 S1: the Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. This week we're 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,480 S1: going to talk about the incredible story of the Iranian 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,600 S1: women's soccer team, some of whom defected and were given 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,440 S1: asylum in Australia. It was a wonderful story, and it 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,840 S1: also happened to be a really great public relations coup 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,959 S1: for the government. Plus, we're going to discuss the legacy 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,360 S1: of outgoing nationals leader David Littleproud, and we will examine 9 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,520 S1: the somewhat controversial style of the incoming nationals leader, Matt Canavan. 10 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,479 S1: Joining me to discuss, we have chief political correspondent Paul Circle, 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,560 S1: as usual, and our national security correspondent, Matthew Knott, both 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,240 S1: of whom joined me from Canberra. Welcome, gents. 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,879 S2: Good morning. Good morning. 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,279 S1: Nodi you have been reporting on this extraordinary story of 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,480 S1: the Iranian women's soccer team, some of whom defected from 16 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,120 S1: the team this week. Can you just tell us when 17 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,080 S1: it became clear to Australian authorities that the women were 18 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,880 S1: under duress in some way and they were being policed, 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,690 S1: or sort of maybe menaced by representatives of the Iranian regime. 20 00:01:02,690 --> 00:01:06,890 S3: Well, this has been bubbling along for a few weeks. 21 00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:10,730 S3: The difficult thing with it, of course, is that everyone, 22 00:01:10,730 --> 00:01:13,410 S3: not just the government, but also the media, have been 23 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:16,410 S3: quite limited in what we've been able to say about 24 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:20,490 S3: this because of the notion that to publicize this too 25 00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:25,090 S3: much could potentially blow up the whole operation. To protect 26 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:28,690 S3: these women, to give them the choice to stay. So 27 00:01:28,770 --> 00:01:31,209 S3: it's been a tricky one in the way you've had 28 00:01:31,209 --> 00:01:34,130 S3: some criticism, perhaps along the way of the government for 29 00:01:34,130 --> 00:01:37,170 S3: not doing enough and not saying enough. But they were 30 00:01:37,209 --> 00:01:40,770 S3: then making clear behind the scenes, there's a lot going on. 31 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:45,250 S3: So that's been a tricky part of this story because 32 00:01:45,250 --> 00:01:47,890 S3: there had to be a lot of subterfuge with it, 33 00:01:47,890 --> 00:01:52,730 S3: because these players have had minders with them, with clear 34 00:01:52,770 --> 00:01:56,890 S3: connections to the regime and the fact that during a 35 00:01:56,890 --> 00:02:00,010 S3: war between the United States and Israel and Iran. To 36 00:02:00,050 --> 00:02:04,410 S3: have players from the national team defecting is a huge 37 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:08,210 S3: propaganda loss for Iran in the middle of this war. 38 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:11,130 S3: So does the fact that this tournament is happening at 39 00:02:11,130 --> 00:02:16,050 S3: this time is remarkable. Uh, Tony Burke, the home affairs minister, 40 00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:18,850 S3: has said he's been across this for weeks. So, say 41 00:02:18,850 --> 00:02:22,450 S3: when the players arrived a few weeks ago, he had 42 00:02:22,450 --> 00:02:27,329 S3: had ASIO do preliminary security checks on them so that 43 00:02:27,330 --> 00:02:30,890 S3: the moment any of them decided they wanted to defect 44 00:02:30,889 --> 00:02:33,570 S3: and seek asylum in Australia, he could basically do the 45 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:38,690 S3: paperwork straight away. But the what I call the rescue 46 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:44,489 S3: operation itself really only ramped up towards the end of 47 00:02:44,530 --> 00:02:48,290 S3: last week. And over the weekend, the deadline pressure came 48 00:02:48,290 --> 00:02:52,490 S3: on because it was the the last game was happening 49 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:55,890 S3: that they were playing and they were leaving the country 50 00:02:55,889 --> 00:02:58,820 S3: any second. So it really ramped up and there was 51 00:02:58,820 --> 00:03:02,579 S3: a lot of behind the scenes action over the the 52 00:03:02,580 --> 00:03:04,579 S3: weekend and then and then on Monday. 53 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:07,260 S1: I mean, this is sort of a bit of an aside, 54 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:11,419 S1: but there's been reporting that some of the minders might 55 00:03:11,460 --> 00:03:15,940 S1: have been members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, which is 56 00:03:15,980 --> 00:03:20,700 S1: now deemed a terrorist organisation in Australia, because, well, it 57 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:25,100 S1: attempted to convene a terrorist attack last year on our soil. 58 00:03:25,419 --> 00:03:27,660 S1: How is it that these people were even allowed in 59 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:28,620 S1: to our country? 60 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:32,780 S3: Well, the government says that they say that none of 61 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:38,660 S3: the people who came were IRGC officials or even don't 62 00:03:38,660 --> 00:03:41,860 S3: have close connections to them. They say several people who 63 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:45,660 S3: tried to come were knocked back, that they rejected visa 64 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:49,620 S3: applications of some of the officials who wanted to come. 65 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:52,220 S3: They say essentially that the mind is who were here 66 00:03:52,220 --> 00:03:56,620 S3: with them are were kind of quote unquote bad people, 67 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:59,860 S3: not the type of people we like, but they're not, uh, 68 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:04,900 S3: IRGC officials who would be rejected. You obviously have the 69 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:07,500 S3: scenario in which if no one came, uh, everyone would 70 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:10,780 S3: still be in Iran. So you had to, uh, worked 71 00:04:10,780 --> 00:04:13,380 S3: out quite well for some of them that they came 72 00:04:13,420 --> 00:04:16,500 S3: in the first place. Uh, the Iranian diaspora throughout has 73 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:21,260 S3: had big concerns about this, specifically about the, the minders 74 00:04:21,260 --> 00:04:24,140 S3: who were there. They've been kind of naming and shaming 75 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:29,420 S3: some of these individuals. They wanted the government to detain 76 00:04:29,660 --> 00:04:34,219 S3: the minders who were with them, to really investigate them. Uh, 77 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:37,140 S3: the government thought that was a step too far, and 78 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:39,860 S3: they really wanted them out of the country basically at 79 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:42,500 S3: the end of the tournament. So that's been a lively 80 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:47,219 S3: debate throughout this about what to do with these handlers 81 00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:51,500 S3: who were clearly, uh, you know, influencing, uh, some of 82 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:54,270 S3: the players and many have said they were feeding them 83 00:04:54,270 --> 00:04:57,070 S3: misinformation about what would happen to them if they stayed 84 00:04:57,070 --> 00:04:59,670 S3: in Australia. The women were supposedly being told that they'd 85 00:04:59,710 --> 00:05:03,670 S3: be sent to a remote island like Nauru if they 86 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:06,230 S3: tried to stay. You can imagine how, given the coverage 87 00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:11,750 S3: of Australia's asylum seeker policies internationally, how they they could 88 00:05:11,790 --> 00:05:15,790 S3: believe that. Uh, so it's been a process to clear 89 00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:17,510 S3: up a lot of that dodgy information. 90 00:05:17,550 --> 00:05:19,190 S4: I imagine it's very hard for the government to try 91 00:05:19,190 --> 00:05:22,110 S4: and differentiate between the officials who are attached to this 92 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:24,310 S4: sporting group. I mean, in the same way as other 93 00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:28,670 S4: kind of paranoid authoritarian nations like North Korea. Uh, Iran 94 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:33,150 S4: is a country where the state apparatus extends across banking, uh, sport, 95 00:05:33,310 --> 00:05:35,830 S4: all elements of the society. So, I mean, unless the 96 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:37,589 S4: government wanted to block the whole team come in, it 97 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:40,390 S4: was you're bound to have some, uh, loyalists in the, 98 00:05:40,430 --> 00:05:41,310 S4: in the show here. 99 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:45,830 S1: Yeah, absolutely. What was interesting, I suppose, as these discussions 100 00:05:45,830 --> 00:05:48,070 S1: were unfolding and as you say, so Tony Burke was 101 00:05:48,110 --> 00:05:49,910 S1: kind of onto it or, you know, he says he 102 00:05:49,910 --> 00:05:52,440 S1: was on to it for, for weeks. The issue of 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,760 S1: the security of these women and whether or not some 104 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,599 S1: of them might want to stay in Australia if they 105 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,240 S1: if they were allowed to. So that's going on for weeks. 106 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,440 S1: And then the actual operation itself, I think, sort of 107 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,440 S1: started unfolding. I think he went up to he went 108 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,599 S1: up to the Gold Coast where the women were over 109 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,640 S1: the weekend, last weekend. Meanwhile, you've got Donald Trump who 110 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,520 S1: gets sort of personally involved in this story. And Paul, 111 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,920 S1: this is sort of more the political implications of it. 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,640 S1: President Donald Trump, I think on Tuesday, early hours of 113 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,120 S1: Tuesday morning, tweeted his criticism of the Albanese government for 114 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,680 S1: not doing enough to help the women. And, you know, 115 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,320 S1: it was it was quite pointed criticism. And he accused 116 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,120 S1: the prime minister of making a terrible humanitarian mistake by 117 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,280 S1: allowing the Iran national women's soccer team to be forced 118 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,520 S1: back to Iran, where they will most likely be killed. 119 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,880 S1: So all this is happening under like behind closed doors. 120 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,080 S1: It doesn't occur to the president of the United States 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,200 S1: that there might be things afoot that he doesn't know about, 122 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,200 S1: that the Australian government might be across this situation and 123 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,400 S1: dealing with it delicately. What happens next, Paul? 124 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,839 S4: Well, I've asked some questions about how this played out 125 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,080 S4: this week, and it seems just as chaotic as it looked. 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,760 S4: So Donald Trump puts up this Truth social post 1:15. 127 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,080 S1: On Tuesday morning. 128 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,279 S4: Tuesday morning, the Prime Minister's preparing for a Canberra sitting week. 129 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,440 S4: He's also dealing with US and UAE requests for help 130 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,200 S4: in the Gulf. So the National Security Committee is meeting 131 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,200 S4: all the time. It's a busy moment for him. He's 132 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,880 S4: asleep at the lodge. There was a suggestion the day 133 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,160 S4: after that he might have been alerted by an Australian 134 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,200 S4: official who had heard from someone in the Trump administration 135 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,160 S4: that the president would like to have a call with Albanese. 136 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,840 S4: That wasn't the case. He was asleep at the lodge, 137 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,920 S4: receives the call sometime between 1:15 and about an hour 138 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,240 S4: and a half later, when he puts up the subsequent 139 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,600 S4: post and the prime Minister's phone rings. So he's clearly 140 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,880 S4: not a person who goes on silent overnight, which maybe 141 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,120 S4: speaks to his, uh, political animal. 142 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,880 S1: I should hope not. He's the prime minister. 143 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,080 S4: He's always on. And he looks at the call and 144 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,370 S4: it says Donald Trump. And he takes it. And they 145 00:07:51,370 --> 00:07:55,210 S4: speak for quite a while, apparently mostly on this issue, 146 00:07:55,210 --> 00:07:59,930 S4: but also about world events and the situation in the Gulf. 147 00:07:59,930 --> 00:08:03,170 S4: And the Prime Minister explains to him, according to people 148 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:06,450 S4: on the Australian side, that we are already taking action here. 149 00:08:06,890 --> 00:08:09,650 S4: It's all in train. I don't know what the president's 150 00:08:09,690 --> 00:08:12,610 S4: response was or if he believed it, but a short 151 00:08:12,610 --> 00:08:15,490 S4: time later he went back on Truth Social and in 152 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:18,370 S4: typical Trump fashion, took a little bit of credit and said, 153 00:08:18,410 --> 00:08:20,210 S4: Albanese is on it. My guy in Australia is going 154 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:25,450 S4: to get this done. And another really intriguing element to 155 00:08:25,450 --> 00:08:28,930 S4: this is what sparked Trump's interest in this issue was 156 00:08:28,930 --> 00:08:33,170 S4: a post from the Australian US online activist Drew Pavlot, 157 00:08:33,210 --> 00:08:36,490 S4: who's a well-known figure in Australia for many years. Part of, uh, 158 00:08:36,490 --> 00:08:39,410 S4: the kind of it's difficult to describe segments of the 159 00:08:39,410 --> 00:08:41,689 S4: online world these days, but I think I'd fit Drew 160 00:08:41,730 --> 00:08:46,410 S4: Pavlou into the Save Western Civilization genre of online posters. 161 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:49,050 S1: Yeah, I so a lot of our listeners might be 162 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:51,250 S1: familiar with him, but basically and not. He can tell 163 00:08:51,250 --> 00:08:53,209 S1: us about him because not he wrote a really great 164 00:08:53,210 --> 00:08:55,930 S1: feature about him a while ago, but this some sort 165 00:08:55,929 --> 00:09:00,569 S1: of rabble rousing social media identity. Drew Pavlou, who is 166 00:09:00,570 --> 00:09:04,370 S1: an Australian, tweeted something about the Iranian women basically saying 167 00:09:04,410 --> 00:09:07,610 S1: Albanese wasn't doing enough. And it seems that Trump, who 168 00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:11,050 S1: is scrolling the internet or scrolling through social, has seen 169 00:09:11,050 --> 00:09:13,969 S1: this post and he retweeted it. And that's how it's 170 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:16,130 S1: come to the attention of President Trump. Is that what 171 00:09:16,130 --> 00:09:17,209 S1: we understand, Noddy. 172 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:21,410 S3: Having written about this as it was happening, it was 173 00:09:21,410 --> 00:09:27,410 S3: all pretty bizarre because, uh, we heard, uh, that five 174 00:09:27,410 --> 00:09:31,250 S3: of the women, you know, were being granted asylum. Around 175 00:09:31,290 --> 00:09:35,570 S3: 9:00 on Monday night. That's when it happened. And word 176 00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:38,490 S3: started filtering out pretty quickly. And we had to wait 177 00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:41,650 S3: just a little bit for when we could publish it, 178 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:43,770 S3: you know, so to make sure they weren't being put 179 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:46,819 S3: at any risk by being publicized, that was a bit 180 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:51,060 S3: before 11 p.m.. So it was it had all been 181 00:09:51,059 --> 00:09:55,100 S3: reported by then. So that's several hours before Trump became 182 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:57,059 S3: activated on the issue. So I went to bed and 183 00:09:57,059 --> 00:09:59,180 S3: knew that five had been granted asylum, then woke up 184 00:09:59,179 --> 00:10:01,300 S3: and to see that Trump was claiming credit was all 185 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:04,380 S3: a bit strange. So yeah, this was an outdated tweet 186 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:08,819 S3: by Drew Pavlou who really came to attention as a 187 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:13,260 S3: young a university student in Brisbane because of his activism 188 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,980 S3: against the Chinese Communist Party. And he did many high 189 00:10:16,980 --> 00:10:21,060 S3: profile actions, some of which were controversial. You know, some 190 00:10:21,059 --> 00:10:24,740 S3: of his stunts, he really pushed the limits of activism 191 00:10:24,740 --> 00:10:28,460 S3: to try and raise the profile of what China was 192 00:10:28,460 --> 00:10:32,100 S3: doing in Xinjiang and, you know, its approach to human rights. 193 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:35,780 S3: That was his big passion. He's since come to focus 194 00:10:35,780 --> 00:10:39,339 S3: on other issues, as Paul said, about a Western civilization. 195 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:42,940 S3: He's very engaged with the Middle Middle East conflict. He 196 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:46,870 S3: talks a lot about immigration to Australia, so he would 197 00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:50,229 S3: have a following now in the in the Maga universe. 198 00:10:50,510 --> 00:10:53,310 S1: Well, clearly he does because he came across President Trump 199 00:10:53,309 --> 00:10:55,990 S1: some social media feed. I just sort of I mean, 200 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:58,030 S1: I think that's a bit of backstory that maybe listeners 201 00:10:58,030 --> 00:11:01,630 S1: won't know, but I just think it's fascinating to observe, 202 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:06,709 S1: once again, how diplomacy is fashioned in the Trump White 203 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:09,710 S1: House and how these things come about and how quickly, 204 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:12,550 S1: you know, our premier ally sort of jumps into a 205 00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:15,150 S1: situation about which he knows nothing and sort of takes 206 00:11:15,150 --> 00:11:17,829 S1: a crack at our prime minister. It's sort of interesting 207 00:11:17,830 --> 00:11:21,750 S1: and slightly spine stiffening, I would say not. It has 208 00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:26,270 S1: been a wonderful PR coup for the government. We've got, 209 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:29,030 S1: you know, Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke sort of talking 210 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:31,030 S1: about it quite openly now that the women are here 211 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:34,870 S1: and they're safe. He's posted on his social media plenty 212 00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,910 S1: of photographs of himself, with the women all smiling happily 213 00:11:37,950 --> 00:11:40,870 S1: now that they're free. Is it sort of a good 214 00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:43,110 S1: way for the government to distract a little bit from 215 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:45,510 S1: the fact that we're getting embroiled in what many people 216 00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:46,670 S1: say is an illegal war. 217 00:11:47,830 --> 00:11:52,470 S3: Look, there's been a lot of publicity around this. There's 218 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:55,670 S3: been a lot of work behind the scenes, including by, say, 219 00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:59,030 S3: the federal police and officials from the Department of Home 220 00:11:59,030 --> 00:12:01,550 S3: Affairs who've been putting in a lot of hours and 221 00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:05,709 S3: emotional labor into this issue. And Tony Burke has been 222 00:12:05,710 --> 00:12:08,270 S3: all across that, I would say. He has certainly been 223 00:12:08,429 --> 00:12:10,949 S3: a photographed with these women. You know, they've let it 224 00:12:10,950 --> 00:12:14,870 S3: be known that he's been there on the scene signing 225 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:18,030 S3: these papers. I became a bit worried about it when 226 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:21,110 S3: one of the players changed her mind and is now 227 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:24,310 S3: seems to have decided to go back to Iran. So 228 00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:29,430 S3: it's been publicized, uh, that that she was staying photographed. 229 00:12:29,429 --> 00:12:32,510 S3: Her name's out there. She's got photos with Tony Burke 230 00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:35,430 S3: celebrating the fact she's defected, and now she's going back 231 00:12:35,429 --> 00:12:40,309 S3: home to this authoritarian, uh, state. That's that's a bit 232 00:12:40,309 --> 00:12:43,800 S3: of a worry. The government said they wanted credit for 233 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,559 S3: this after being attacked for not doing enough. And then, uh, 234 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,800 S3: as you say, yeah, the war issues going at the 235 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,800 S3: same time. Uh, it's all it's all happening together. 236 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,360 S1: And not to be churlish about it because it is 237 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:00,960 S1: a really good news story. And I think we're all 238 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,360 S1: hungry for a good news story. But, Paul, I want 239 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,600 S1: to bring you in on this. What do you think? Obviously, 240 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,280 S1: the government has involved us. You know, our personnel and 241 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,679 S1: our military assets are now deployed, are going to be 242 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,719 S1: deployed to the Middle East for defensive purposes to to 243 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,600 S1: Gulf allies. Inflation from oil and fertilizer shortages is going 244 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,920 S1: to hit us imminently. We're already hearing reports of shortages 245 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,559 S1: of petrol. And you know, this is our premier ally. 246 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,439 S1: We're tied to them strategically into the never never really 247 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,160 S1: because of Aukus. Is this going to. Are we involved 248 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,880 S1: or are we not involved? What's the message from the 249 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,079 S1: government in your view? 250 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,680 S4: We are involved, but to use a term that's probably 251 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,330 S4: used too much these days. There are clear guardrails around 252 00:13:42,330 --> 00:13:44,770 S4: our involvement. The government has put itself in the wall, 253 00:13:44,770 --> 00:13:49,569 S4: but it's been very keen to emphasize the limited defensive 254 00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:53,610 S4: nature of the posture. We're sending missiles that will help 255 00:13:53,650 --> 00:13:57,490 S4: strike Iranian drones and missiles out of the sky. There 256 00:13:57,490 --> 00:14:00,290 S4: will be no direct attacks into Iran. There are no 257 00:14:00,290 --> 00:14:02,170 S4: boots on the ground. I mean, the US doesn't appear 258 00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:04,050 S4: to be contemplating boots on the ground. 259 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:06,770 S1: Well, Trump Trump has raised that possibility. 260 00:14:06,770 --> 00:14:10,810 S4: So yeah, in one of them many possibilities raise. And 261 00:14:10,809 --> 00:14:13,250 S4: then walk back on and let Marco Rubio's had to 262 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:15,330 S4: come in and clean up. But it doesn't look like 263 00:14:15,330 --> 00:14:18,290 S4: that's the likeliest course of action or even close to 264 00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:21,690 S4: the likeliest. And I don't think the government the government 265 00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:24,130 S4: apparently has made clear to both the US and other 266 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:27,130 S4: allies in the region that this is as far as 267 00:14:27,370 --> 00:14:33,690 S4: it will go. But because of the because of the 268 00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:37,410 S4: previous history around regime change operations in the Middle East, 269 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:41,850 S4: even a limited posture rises up. This debate about whether 270 00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:44,010 S4: Australia should be tied as closely as it is to 271 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:47,050 S4: the US. The government would come back to that and say, look, 272 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:49,970 S4: we are protecting Australian assets in the UAE. There are 273 00:14:49,970 --> 00:14:53,330 S4: 25,000 Australians there. We have a key air base there, 274 00:14:53,530 --> 00:14:56,290 S4: and if Australia's strategic and economic interest is to bring 275 00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:58,410 S4: this war to an end as quickly as possible, it 276 00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:00,970 S4: makes sense to be there to try and stabilise this, 277 00:15:00,970 --> 00:15:03,530 S4: to keep it in check, to put as much to 278 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:08,210 S4: balance as strongly against the Iranian missile barrage as possible, 279 00:15:08,370 --> 00:15:11,250 S4: to try and get Iran to stop what it's doing 280 00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:13,730 S4: to support the Gulf and not allow the Gulf to 281 00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:17,170 S4: be overwhelmed in a way that might precipitate an elongation 282 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:20,050 S4: of this war, which would increase the likelihood of an 283 00:15:20,050 --> 00:15:21,010 S4: inflation outbreak. 284 00:15:21,330 --> 00:15:23,490 S3: I think the government's aware all this has to be 285 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:27,730 S3: communicated very carefully and clearly about what they are and 286 00:15:27,730 --> 00:15:30,570 S3: aren't doing, but I don't I don't think it's something 287 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:32,850 S3: they're trying to hide or cover up. I think they're 288 00:15:32,850 --> 00:15:36,090 S3: just as aware of the idea that they're sitting back 289 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:40,460 S3: and not doing anything, not contributing. Australians are in the Gulf, 290 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:44,140 S3: are facing missile attacks and they want. They want Australians 291 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:47,020 S3: to understand the limits of what they're doing, but they 292 00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:49,540 S3: want it to be known that they are contributing, but 293 00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:53,500 S3: they're sending some of our assets there. So they're aware 294 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:57,020 S3: of both sides of this debate. So it's not something 295 00:15:57,020 --> 00:15:59,500 S3: they're trying to hide. They just don't want it to 296 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:03,540 S3: be seen. As you know, we're all the way with Trump. 297 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:06,140 S1: No I wouldn't say they're trying to hide it. I 298 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:08,620 S1: would say cynically that they're trying to spin it in 299 00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:10,740 S1: a very particular way because they know that this is 300 00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:12,660 S1: such a such a delicate line that they have to 301 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,340 S1: walk with Donald Trump in the in the white House, 302 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:17,940 S1: one of strangely enough, one of the only people to 303 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:21,100 S1: sort of express some reservations about us getting into this 304 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:23,140 S1: war or any kind of forever war is the new 305 00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:25,700 S1: nationals leader, Matt Canavan. So I just want to kind 306 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:27,460 S1: of pivot to that because that was the other big 307 00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:31,580 S1: political news of the week. Abruptly, we saw the resignation 308 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:36,420 S1: or the abrupt resignation of nationals leader David Littleproud. Paulw. 309 00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:40,020 S1: You interviewed him at length for this podcast just a 310 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:43,540 S1: few weeks ago, and there was nary a whisper of 311 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,700 S1: him not being totally committed to the to the job. 312 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:47,820 S1: What happened? 313 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,940 S4: No, he was totally defiant when I asked if he 314 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:53,940 S4: would contemplate a handover to Matt Canavan or Bridget McKenzie 315 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:56,740 S4: if he failed at the upcoming Farrah by election. He 316 00:16:56,740 --> 00:16:59,780 S4: didn't give a moment's thought to that question, but in 317 00:16:59,780 --> 00:17:02,580 S4: the same breath, his words of defiance and he is 318 00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:05,619 S4: a pretty skilled public performer. David Littleproud he's got a 319 00:17:05,619 --> 00:17:09,180 S4: line for most questions, but in the same interview he did, 320 00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:11,300 S4: he did kind of speak to The Trouble Ahead, where 321 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:14,379 S4: he predicted that his party would probably finish last in 322 00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:17,020 S4: that by election. This is the one that's been created 323 00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:20,619 S4: by the resignation of Sussan Ley will be held in May. 324 00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:22,899 S4: This is a regional New South Wales seat where the 325 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:26,660 S4: National Party, which the National Party held for 417 years 326 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:29,980 S4: before Sussan Ley entered Parliament. David Littleproud had been saying 327 00:17:29,980 --> 00:17:32,940 S4: privately to his colleagues for months that the surge in 328 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:35,670 S4: support for One Nation was coming at the expense largely 329 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:38,550 S4: of liberals in the outer suburbs, and that the nationals 330 00:17:38,550 --> 00:17:42,350 S4: were retaining their base, or at least performing solidly in 331 00:17:42,350 --> 00:17:45,790 S4: its in its seats. The by election was going to 332 00:17:45,790 --> 00:17:49,030 S4: be a clear display of the struggles that even the 333 00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:51,310 S4: nationals are having with their base, and if they were 334 00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,669 S4: totally wiped out by one nation, that would have been 335 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:56,950 S4: a moment of humiliation for Littleproud. He's also been mentally 336 00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:59,950 S4: anguished in the last few months, dealing with the coalition 337 00:17:59,950 --> 00:18:04,750 S4: split that he chiefly precipitated. He had another coalition split 338 00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:07,390 S4: just after the May election, and I think there was 339 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,750 S4: a growing sense in the in the nationals party room 340 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:11,949 S4: that he wasn't the leader for the long run. He 341 00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:14,429 S4: wasn't under immediate danger, which is why this week really 342 00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:18,310 S4: surprised his colleagues and has sparked some chatter. As always 343 00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:21,629 S4: in politics, that might have been a more salacious reason 344 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:23,429 S4: for the switch. I'm not suggesting that's true at all, 345 00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:26,110 S4: but that's what some of his colleagues are speculating. And 346 00:18:26,109 --> 00:18:28,590 S4: now we move on to the Matt Canavan experiment. 347 00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:31,830 S1: Yeah, yeah. So that's really, really an interesting um he's 348 00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:35,840 S1: an interesting sort of presence. I think we're told that 349 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,800 S1: he was overwhelmingly supported in the nationals party room as 350 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,960 S1: the new leader. The nationals don't tell us how many 351 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,320 S1: votes he got. He gave a speech straight afterwards and 352 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,960 S1: was sort of very nativist sort of speech. We've got 353 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,359 S1: to have more Australian everything manifest a hyper Australia, more 354 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,880 S1: Australian babies, more Australian humor, more Australian jokes, more Australian barbecues, 355 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,280 S1: sometimes often fueled by fossil fuels, which gave me the 356 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,680 S1: sort of this unwelcome image of Matt Canavan trying to 357 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,480 S1: serve to his guests sausages that were cooked on coal. 358 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,760 S1: But then I realised that gas is also a fossil fuel, 359 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,399 S1: so I'll pass that on. But I mean, it was look, 360 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,520 S1: I wouldn't say it was a piece of great oratory, 361 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,359 S1: but what do you think he was sort of trying 362 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,560 S1: to say there, Noddy? What was the message he was 363 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:19,480 S1: trying to convey? 364 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,240 S3: I guess the thing is also that he hasn't, as 365 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,320 S3: he's been making very clear, he hasn't had much time 366 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,880 S3: to prepare for this moment and his debut as leader. 367 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,320 S3: This all happened so rapidly and he's now got to 368 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,440 S3: make the case for this job he wasn't necessarily seeking 369 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,520 S3: right now. There's obviously been a lot of talk about 370 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,960 S3: how he's basically been the de facto leader, and he's 371 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,560 S3: been the thought leader, not just in the nationals, but, 372 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,640 S3: you know, within the broader conservative part of the parliament. 373 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,880 S3: He's been extremely influential, including recently on the on the 374 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,080 S3: hate speech laws. He was the one who convinced the 375 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,640 S3: party to to really turn against that and bust up 376 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,760 S3: the coalition. I think that's pretty safe space in general 377 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,640 S3: for the nationals leader to be considering. They're up against 378 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,280 S3: One Nation, which is running such a nationalistic campaign, you know, 379 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,240 S3: to just be pro Australia. We're proud of this country. 380 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,080 S3: The fossil, the fossil fuel line it goes at gets 381 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,240 S3: at the kind of trolling aspect of Matt Canavan's persona. 382 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,040 S3: You know, that if it gets people in a in 383 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,690 S3: a city, Sydney and Melbourne Annoyed, then that's even better. 384 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:34,770 S3: That's of course got problems for the Liberal Party and 385 00:20:34,770 --> 00:20:38,530 S3: the broader coalition. But that's that's very much his M.O.. 386 00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:41,609 S1: Yeah. I mean which which kind of clashes or is 387 00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:44,050 S1: in conflict or tension with, you know, the other side 388 00:20:44,050 --> 00:20:46,650 S1: of his personality, which is a very sort of serious 389 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:48,890 S1: policy brain. He was very high up as an economist 390 00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:51,210 S1: at the Productivity Commission. This is a guy who knows 391 00:20:51,210 --> 00:20:54,609 S1: his stuff and he's actually learned and, you know, something 392 00:20:54,650 --> 00:20:57,250 S1: of an intellectual. I read the description that he was 393 00:20:57,250 --> 00:20:59,530 S1: the best policy brain in the nationals party room, which 394 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:02,730 S1: I saw as sort of faint praise, but it's actually 395 00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:06,210 S1: but he is actually a serious policy brain and is, 396 00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:09,609 S1: you know, recognized as such. Paul, he was very pointed 397 00:21:09,609 --> 00:21:13,490 S1: about in his criticisms of One Nation that was interesting. 398 00:21:13,930 --> 00:21:18,290 S4: And he's he's for months been the most assertive really 399 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:20,929 S4: coalition thing and not just national figure in taking on 400 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:25,210 S4: Pauline Hanson. He'd been for months speaking to Barnaby Joyce 401 00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:27,570 S4: in private, begging him to stay in the National Party. 402 00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:30,050 S4: He used to work as Barnaby Joyce's chief of staff. 403 00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:33,730 S4: He describes Joyce as kind of his political father. And 404 00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:38,250 S4: so once Canavan got wind that Joyce was considering defecting, Joyce, 405 00:21:38,250 --> 00:21:40,290 S4: who felt on the outer in the National Party, didn't 406 00:21:40,290 --> 00:21:42,969 S4: think he could lead it again, wanted to be relevant, 407 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:47,730 S4: wanted to put his energy into something else. Canavan had long, 408 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:51,010 S4: long conversations with him over weeks and months, telling him 409 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:53,330 S4: this is your home. You'll do us great damage if 410 00:21:53,369 --> 00:21:56,770 S4: you leave us. But then once the flick switched and 411 00:21:56,770 --> 00:22:00,290 S4: Canavan determined in his mind that Joyce was gone and 412 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:03,530 S4: this was pre Joyce actually making the announcement, you started 413 00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:06,530 S4: to see Canavan as the first national to step out 414 00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:09,730 S4: of the party line, which was. We love Barnaby. Please 415 00:22:09,730 --> 00:22:13,369 S4: stay to start attacking his character and to start chipping 416 00:22:13,369 --> 00:22:16,010 S4: away at Hanson. He's been doing this since November or December, 417 00:22:16,010 --> 00:22:18,570 S4: but without as much cut through as this week. Obviously 418 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:22,129 S4: because he's now leader and he's developed this two track 419 00:22:22,130 --> 00:22:25,250 S4: argument in countering One Nation. One is to say that 420 00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:27,980 S4: they're a protest party who have never delivered anything and 421 00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:30,620 S4: feed off grievance. And the other is to say that 422 00:22:30,619 --> 00:22:34,100 S4: their brand of race politics is damaging to the Australian 423 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:37,300 S4: Australian social fabric. These are brave stances for him to take, 424 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:40,659 S4: particularly on race, because he's online community and he's a 425 00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:43,860 S4: heavily online character. He plays online video games, he's big 426 00:22:43,859 --> 00:22:47,420 S4: on X, he really follows his online crowd and listens 427 00:22:47,420 --> 00:22:50,660 S4: to them. They are extremely animated by the immigration issue. 428 00:22:50,660 --> 00:22:53,060 S4: It's the most salient issue in their minds at the moment. 429 00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:55,620 S4: So to take that principled position he has has been 430 00:22:55,619 --> 00:22:58,300 S4: difficult for him in his in his base. But he 431 00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:02,780 S4: knows what Barnaby Joyce's key fear is in one nation. 432 00:23:02,780 --> 00:23:05,980 S4: And Joyce talks to people about this. It's that over time, 433 00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:11,060 S4: if Hanson's views are exposed as racist, if she is 434 00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:13,419 S4: not able to moderate her language and she's not the 435 00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:16,460 S4: most articulate person, and he knows that One Nation will 436 00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:21,980 S4: not appear as the legitimate new mainstream conservative force which 437 00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:24,820 S4: can come into government or become in opposition, but they'll 438 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:27,629 S4: be cast as a kind of backward, provincial racist party, 439 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:31,550 S4: which Joyce knows will not command significant support in the 440 00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:34,230 S4: Australian community. Canavan is chipping at that relentlessly. 441 00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:36,510 S1: Yeah. So you say that it's a principled position that 442 00:23:36,510 --> 00:23:39,710 S1: he's taken. And I mean, it does it does show 443 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:41,830 S1: strength of character that he is the only really the 444 00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:43,910 S1: only person I've seen on the coalition side who's very, 445 00:23:43,910 --> 00:23:46,790 S1: very strongly called Pauline Hanson out for those comments that 446 00:23:46,790 --> 00:23:49,790 S1: she made about Muslim people recently. But what you also 447 00:23:49,790 --> 00:23:51,590 S1: seem to be saying is it's actually quite a good 448 00:23:51,630 --> 00:23:54,790 S1: strategic position for him as well, because he differentiates himself 449 00:23:54,790 --> 00:23:57,189 S1: from one nation and he paints one nation as an 450 00:23:57,190 --> 00:24:01,070 S1: extremist party that might possibly be racist and xenophobic, unlike 451 00:24:01,070 --> 00:24:03,990 S1: the nationals who are, you know, sensible, grown up people. 452 00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:06,750 S1: I don't know, I'm just putting that out there. I 453 00:24:06,790 --> 00:24:08,750 S1: just want to talk quickly. Nadia, I'll go to you 454 00:24:08,750 --> 00:24:11,350 S1: on this about how he's going to be viewed by 455 00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:14,070 S1: the moderates and the liberals and people who might want 456 00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:17,070 S1: to go back to voting liberal in the metropolitan seats, 457 00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:19,709 S1: having voted ttyl's. What's your view on that? How's he 458 00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:22,109 S1: going to sort of fit within the broader coalition? 459 00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:25,630 S3: Obviously, very early there. there's a risk, but there's also 460 00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:30,270 S3: a chance that this will allow the Liberal Party to 461 00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:33,550 S3: get back a sense of their own identity, perhaps, particularly 462 00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:36,470 S3: if the leaders can have a productive relationship and get 463 00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:39,790 S3: along and perhaps divide and conquer would be the absolute 464 00:24:39,790 --> 00:24:44,030 S3: best outcome here, because the Liberal Party really needs to 465 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:47,150 S3: build back what its brand is and what it represents 466 00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:51,389 S3: to its traditional voters. Ultimately, they're going to be voting 467 00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:55,830 S3: for a Liberal candidate. Obviously, it all gets mixed up 468 00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:58,669 S3: together in people's minds, and we've seen this with the 469 00:24:58,710 --> 00:25:01,910 S3: Barnaby Joyce factor. But there is a scenario in which 470 00:25:02,270 --> 00:25:06,990 S3: Angus Taylor can, you know, carve out some space as 471 00:25:07,030 --> 00:25:09,669 S3: as the leader of the Liberal Party. Let Matt Canavan 472 00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:13,550 S3: shore up support on the right and and take on 473 00:25:13,550 --> 00:25:16,750 S3: One Nation and do a lot of that quote unquote 474 00:25:17,070 --> 00:25:19,790 S3: dirty work of doing that. And he can be a 475 00:25:19,790 --> 00:25:22,670 S3: bit more of a prime ministerial figure. That's the best 476 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,320 S3: case scenario. There are many ways in which it can 477 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,679 S3: go wrong. And if Matt Canavan says something that's a 478 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,480 S3: bit out there for many voters, uh, in the city's 479 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,520 S3: more moderate voters, uh, they're not they're not going to 480 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,160 S3: like that. 481 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,280 S1: Certainly his strident support for fossil fuels would have to 482 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,160 S1: be a real turnoff to a lot of the voters 483 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,720 S1: in the Inner Metropolitans. 484 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,240 S3: Yes, yes, that's that's a big risk. But that's certainly 485 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,080 S3: the path the the coalition is going a pretty clearly down. 486 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,680 S1: That that ship ain't turning around anytime soon. 487 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,080 S4: I'll read the Tim Wilson quote, if helpful on this 488 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,000 S4: question of whether, uh, Matt Canavan will make it more 489 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,720 S4: difficult for him in the inner suburban seat of Goldstein. 490 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,280 S4: Tim Wilson's quote is Matt Canavan is the embodiment of 491 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,480 S4: a national. And the National should be nationals. So his 492 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,320 S4: elevation gives us permission to be the Liberals we need 493 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600 S4: for urban Australia because retake in Australia requires liberals to 494 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,040 S4: be liberal. So there is a hope in the moderates 495 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,600 S4: that there is a period of before you actually need 496 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,640 S4: to develop a policy agenda for government over the next 497 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,160 S4: 18 months or so. The nationals can go and win 498 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,120 S4: support back, and liberals can cleave back towards their base. 499 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,840 S4: That might be Pollyanna ish, but that's the hope. 500 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,919 S3: I feel very in sync with Tim Wilson. 501 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,840 S1: Do you? Oh, that's that's that's. 502 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,680 S3: Great to reflect on. 503 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,640 S1: It. Tim Wilson is, um, is a favorite of this podcast. 504 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,320 S1: He's a good talker. We like him. Thanks, gentlemen. That 505 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,639 S1: was very, very interesting and illuminating. I'm really interested to 506 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,520 S1: see how Matt Canavan does and what he does as 507 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,320 S1: nationals leader. It's going to be an interesting ride. Thanks fellas. 508 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,080 S1: See you soon. 509 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,320 S5: Thanks guys. Thank you. 510 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,640 S1: You can read all of our political news on our 511 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:03,959 S1: websites theage.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. 512 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,080 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 513 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,359 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. Before you go, 514 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,920 S1: follow Inside Politics and leave a review for us on 515 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,359 S1: Apple or Spotify. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.