1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,800 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,680 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Thursday, 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:17,079 S1: January 15th. When Kevin Rudd announced on Monday that he'd 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,040 S1: be leaving his post as ambassador to the United States 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,040 S1: a year early. It was, for many, a penny drop moment. 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,520 S1: Wasn't this inevitable? His days numbered ever since his incredibly 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,720 S1: awkward meeting with American President Donald Trump in the white 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:37,200 S1: House in October. Today, Foreign affairs and national security correspondent 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,559 S1: Matthew Not on where this leaves our relationship with the 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:51,600 S1: most mercurial American president in recent memory. Matt, welcome back 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:52,640 S1: to the Morning Edition. 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,040 S2: Thanks. It's great to be back. 13 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,560 S1: Okay. Let's just start with how big a deal is this? 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,880 S1: You know that Kevin Rudd is leaving really this crucial 15 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,230 S1: role a year early. To those listeners who don't necessarily 16 00:01:03,230 --> 00:01:06,270 S1: pay attention to who our diplomats are. Like, why does 17 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:06,950 S1: this matter? 18 00:01:06,990 --> 00:01:10,789 S2: Hmm. Well, the Australian ambassador to the United States, it's 19 00:01:10,790 --> 00:01:16,750 S2: definitely the most prestigious and arguably most important diplomatic posting 20 00:01:16,750 --> 00:01:19,709 S2: that we have. Of course, the US is our most 21 00:01:19,709 --> 00:01:24,550 S2: important security partner, particularly at a time like now where 22 00:01:24,550 --> 00:01:28,789 S2: we have the Trump administration. That's so unusual, to put 23 00:01:28,790 --> 00:01:33,070 S2: it mildly, chaotic. It's probably a more accurate word. Traditional 24 00:01:33,069 --> 00:01:37,630 S2: alliances aren't valued like they used to be, say, under 25 00:01:37,630 --> 00:01:41,350 S2: Joe Biden. That was an easier task for a government 26 00:01:41,350 --> 00:01:45,030 S2: and a diplomat to deal with. So it's important for 27 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:49,590 S2: our chief diplomat there to have access to the administration. 28 00:01:49,750 --> 00:01:53,950 S2: It's very much more personal than, say, in other times, 29 00:01:53,950 --> 00:01:57,910 S2: you need to build personal relationships with the white House 30 00:01:57,910 --> 00:02:01,230 S2: and the rest of the Administration, they're not so much 31 00:02:01,270 --> 00:02:06,670 S2: into diplomatic niceties. So it's extremely important. The idea is 32 00:02:06,670 --> 00:02:09,790 S2: you have to be seen as a representative of the 33 00:02:09,790 --> 00:02:12,590 S2: prime minister in Washington. 34 00:02:13,190 --> 00:02:15,190 S1: And so can you perhaps just tell us what the 35 00:02:15,190 --> 00:02:18,270 S1: ambassador actually does and how much they are a make 36 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:21,030 S1: or break person in terms of Australia getting what it 37 00:02:21,030 --> 00:02:22,510 S1: wants out of the United States? 38 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:26,110 S2: They can be exceptionally important. Their job is to be 39 00:02:26,110 --> 00:02:29,870 S2: incredibly well connected, to know what's going on, to hopefully 40 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:33,830 S2: see what's coming down the line so that the Australian 41 00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:37,830 S2: system can prepare. Now that's tricky with Trump because it's 42 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:41,430 S2: so chaotic and unpredictable. Um, people haven't known what's coming. 43 00:02:41,430 --> 00:02:45,030 S2: For example, on tariff rates, we saw in the first 44 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:48,950 S2: Trump administration that Joe Hockey's influence did play a role 45 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:52,790 S2: in advocating for Australia not to be hit with particular tariffs. 46 00:02:52,790 --> 00:02:56,070 S2: It really can matter. I remember speaking to a Trump's 47 00:02:56,270 --> 00:02:58,589 S2: former chief of staff, chief of staff at the time, 48 00:02:58,590 --> 00:03:01,060 S2: Mick Mulvaney, who was saying the fact that they had 49 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:05,860 S2: a personal relationship with hockey meant Australia got better outcomes than, say, 50 00:03:05,860 --> 00:03:09,220 S2: a country like Malaysia or another country was simply because 51 00:03:09,220 --> 00:03:12,419 S2: of the personal rapport that's there. So there's a lot 52 00:03:12,419 --> 00:03:16,139 S2: of social aspects to the job. You're trying to have 53 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:19,860 S2: a contact book that's full of names. One interesting thing 54 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:24,900 S2: some people may not know is the Australian Embassy in Washington. 55 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:27,620 S2: The residence, actually the ambassador's residence, you know, it has 56 00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:31,180 S2: a grass tennis court that Joe Hockey restored. It's one 57 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:34,780 S2: of the only, if not the only, grass tennis courts 58 00:03:34,780 --> 00:03:38,060 S2: in the northeast United States. So, for example, they use 59 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:41,660 S2: that to get any tennis lovers within the US political 60 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:43,900 S2: system really want to go and play, because many people 61 00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:45,900 S2: dream of playing on a grass tennis court and we 62 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:51,020 S2: have one. So we try and use that for diplomatic leverage, uh, 63 00:03:51,260 --> 00:03:53,020 S2: which is one of the things we have going because 64 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:57,300 S2: it's very competitive place to be with the different countries 65 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,900 S2: trying to court members of the administration. 66 00:04:00,940 --> 00:04:02,660 S1: So any leg up, even if it's just a grass 67 00:04:02,660 --> 00:04:03,180 S1: tennis court. 68 00:04:03,220 --> 00:04:03,860 S2: Grass tennis court? 69 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:06,060 S1: Yeah. That's incredible. I'd love to know. Yeah. We'll have 70 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:08,220 S1: to discuss on another podcast why. It's one of the 71 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:12,260 S1: only grass tennis courts in the northeast of the United States. Okay. 72 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:15,460 S1: I really want to know what the chatter is about, 73 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:19,260 S1: whether this actually was, as Albanese announced, you know, Kevin 74 00:04:19,260 --> 00:04:21,500 S1: Rudd's own decision to leave his post a year early, 75 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:23,500 S1: because we know that the Prime Minister was, of course, 76 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:26,780 S1: under a lot of pressure to dump Rudd after that 77 00:04:26,779 --> 00:04:30,460 S1: incredibly memorable meeting in the white House that Rudd had 78 00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:32,460 S1: with Donald Trump in October. 79 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:36,300 S3: Any concerns with this administration, with its stance on Palestine, 80 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:39,460 S3: climate change or even things the ambassador said about you 81 00:04:39,460 --> 00:04:41,060 S3: in the past? The Australian ambassador. 82 00:04:41,420 --> 00:04:43,540 S4: I don't know anything about him. I mean, if you 83 00:04:43,540 --> 00:04:46,340 S4: said bad, then maybe he'll like to apologise. I really 84 00:04:46,339 --> 00:04:50,660 S4: don't know. Did ambassador say something bad about. Don't tell me, 85 00:04:50,660 --> 00:04:53,380 S4: I don't know. Where is he? Is he still working 86 00:04:53,380 --> 00:04:57,700 S4: for you? Yeah. You said bad. 87 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:00,290 S5: Before I took this position. Mr. president. 88 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:04,490 S4: I don't like you either. I don't, and probably never will. 89 00:05:04,529 --> 00:05:05,010 S4: Go ahead. 90 00:05:06,690 --> 00:05:08,890 S1: I mean, it made global headlines for a reason, right? 91 00:05:09,490 --> 00:05:13,610 S2: Now, this was a big surprise, including to senior members 92 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:19,289 S2: of the government themselves. Everything about, uh, this ambassadorial role 93 00:05:19,290 --> 00:05:22,490 S2: from from the time prime Minister Albanese was considering Kevin Rudd. 94 00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:25,690 S2: It's very closely held. This isn't like some decisions that 95 00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:29,410 S2: go to the broader, uh, caucus and even really the 96 00:05:29,410 --> 00:05:32,529 S2: broader cabinet. This is a prime ministerial appointment. You know, 97 00:05:32,570 --> 00:05:34,610 S2: if you're prime minister, there are certain things you get 98 00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:36,489 S2: to do and there are certain perks to the job. 99 00:05:36,490 --> 00:05:38,210 S2: One is you get to pick who goes into a 100 00:05:38,210 --> 00:05:42,409 S2: job like this. This was from day one. Anthony Albanese's 101 00:05:42,970 --> 00:05:48,089 S2: personal choice. He stood loyally by Kevin Rudd throughout the 102 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:52,489 S2: tumult of the Rudd-gillard years. And so this was a 103 00:05:52,529 --> 00:05:56,090 S2: personal choice now. Uh, there's been a lot of drama, 104 00:05:56,450 --> 00:05:59,529 S2: particularly since Donald Trump came back on the scene as 105 00:05:59,529 --> 00:06:04,010 S2: a candidate because of historical remarks that Kevin Rudd made 106 00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:04,890 S2: about him. 107 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:07,729 S6: There is more pressure tonight on the Prime Minister to 108 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:11,450 S6: replace Kevin Rudd as our ambassador to Washington, after a 109 00:06:11,450 --> 00:06:16,169 S6: resurfaced video showed him calling Donald Trump a village idiot. 110 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:19,450 S7: And as the United States in the last four years 111 00:06:19,450 --> 00:06:21,210 S7: has been run by a village idiot. 112 00:06:22,050 --> 00:06:25,409 S2: So it's been a source of drama and friction and 113 00:06:25,730 --> 00:06:30,010 S2: a cloud, I would say, over the the relationship, a 114 00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:34,570 S2: bit of a distraction, particularly, say when Albanese was struggling, 115 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:36,490 S2: it seemed to get a meeting with Trump. How much 116 00:06:36,490 --> 00:06:39,330 S2: is that to do with Rudd and his former tweets, 117 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:42,130 S2: or how much is that to do with the priorities 118 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:46,250 S2: of the administration? So it's been a constant irritant really, 119 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:50,130 S2: although he's been working very hard behind the scenes. We 120 00:06:50,130 --> 00:06:54,170 S2: had the successful meeting, uh, in October. 121 00:06:54,730 --> 00:06:57,289 S4: Well, thank you very much. It's great to have the 122 00:06:57,370 --> 00:06:59,760 S4: Prime Minister of Australia. 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,159 S2: Fantastic place where there was also this kind of flare 124 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,440 S2: up between Trump and Rudd. Uh, but he seemed to survive. Um, 125 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,000 S2: after that, the government stared down calls for Rudd to 126 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,560 S2: be removed from the opposition. That was seen as the 127 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,520 S2: opposition went out way too hard on that. They were 128 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,880 S2: kind of not on the side of Team Australia, you know, 129 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,920 S2: they were undermining our ambassador. I think what we could 130 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,040 S2: say is that Rudd delivered that meeting. They had this 131 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,840 S2: agreement on critical minerals. They got a lot done. I 132 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,840 S2: think what we're seeing is the view that he's going 133 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,080 S2: out on a high, um, he hasn't been dumped, he 134 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,000 S2: hasn't been forced out, but I think he has read 135 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,960 S2: the tea leaves and seen that there's nothing more to 136 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,120 S2: be gained by hanging around for another year. And the 137 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,240 S2: Prime Minister's clearly accepted his resignation. He hasn't said no. 138 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,360 S2: We really need you to stay for one more year 139 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,680 S2: to finish out your term. You're the only person who 140 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,950 S2: can do this job. He hasn't said that Rudd is 141 00:07:57,950 --> 00:08:00,790 S2: leaving to go back essentially to the job he had 142 00:08:00,790 --> 00:08:04,590 S2: before at a think tank in New York. So I 143 00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:08,630 S2: don't think Albanese was ever going to fire him. He's 144 00:08:08,630 --> 00:08:12,230 S2: very loyal. Uh, not just to Rudd, but to the 145 00:08:12,230 --> 00:08:16,390 S2: members of his cabinet. You know, he's really stood by them. 146 00:08:16,390 --> 00:08:20,430 S2: He hasn't been firing ministers, really, nearly including where they've been. Scandals. 147 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:22,910 S1: But I do wonder whether there was any pressure, do 148 00:08:22,910 --> 00:08:26,630 S1: you think, from the Trump administration, perhaps to get rid 149 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:30,070 S1: of Rudd early because, you know, you've reported that, you know, 150 00:08:30,110 --> 00:08:32,150 S1: Rudd had to suck it up when Trump sort of 151 00:08:32,190 --> 00:08:35,110 S1: belittled him, really, and said that Trump said he would 152 00:08:35,110 --> 00:08:37,750 S1: never like him either, and he had to sort of 153 00:08:37,790 --> 00:08:39,350 S1: suck it up. But, you know, the idea that this 154 00:08:39,350 --> 00:08:41,829 S1: was a mere joke because it sort of seemed like 155 00:08:41,830 --> 00:08:43,590 S1: they made up it was undercut a few days later 156 00:08:43,590 --> 00:08:46,670 S1: when Trump said he doesn't forget those who've besmirched him. 157 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:48,950 S1: And then you also reported that just at the end 158 00:08:48,950 --> 00:08:53,310 S1: of 2024, a top Trump adviser, this is Dan Scavino, 159 00:08:53,710 --> 00:08:56,950 S1: who I believe is now deputy white House chief of staff. 160 00:08:57,070 --> 00:09:00,589 S1: He posted an ominous image on social media of sort 161 00:09:00,590 --> 00:09:03,990 S1: of sand trickling through an hourglass in response to a 162 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:06,590 S1: post by Rudd. So is there any suggestion that the 163 00:09:06,630 --> 00:09:08,550 S1: Trump administration has had a hand in this? 164 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:13,230 S2: Well, the Australian government throughout has been insistent that we 165 00:09:13,230 --> 00:09:17,350 S2: choose our ambassador. It was extremely unusual that in the 166 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:22,830 S2: days after Donald Trump won at this, very senior important staffer, 167 00:09:22,870 --> 00:09:25,190 S2: Dan Scavino was tweeting this. So it shows that this 168 00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:30,550 S2: was known within the extended MAGA universe. Trump himself has 169 00:09:30,590 --> 00:09:32,150 S2: been asked about this a lot, and you can see 170 00:09:32,150 --> 00:09:37,150 S2: every time he didn't really seem to know necessarily who 171 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:39,510 S2: Kevin Rudd was or what he'd said. 172 00:09:39,830 --> 00:09:42,710 S4: I heard he was a little bit nasty. I hear 173 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:45,550 S4: he's not the brightest bulb, but I don't know much 174 00:09:45,550 --> 00:09:46,030 S4: about him. 175 00:09:46,030 --> 00:09:49,790 S2: But if he was just vaguely aware, he said something 176 00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:51,790 S2: nasty about me in the past and if he did, 177 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:54,310 S2: I don't really like him, so it wasn't top of mind. 178 00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:57,980 S2: I don't think the government would ever have sacked him 179 00:09:57,980 --> 00:10:02,420 S2: or bowed to, uh, that that level of pressure from 180 00:10:02,420 --> 00:10:05,460 S2: the Trump administration. I think it's just a matter of, uh, 181 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:07,820 S2: kind of trying to go out on a good note, 182 00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:09,740 S2: you know, just like athletes try to do, you know, 183 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:12,780 S2: like go out before your you're falling down the rankings. 184 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:16,700 S2: I think Rudd wanted to go out with his reputation intact. Uh, 185 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:20,660 S2: the president has fully backed orcas. They've got this deal 186 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:24,300 S2: on critical minerals. He gave Australia a pass saying, oh, 187 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:27,579 S2: do what you can on defense spending. Uh, so that 188 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:31,980 S2: was an incredible outcome for Australia, for the Prime minister. 189 00:10:31,980 --> 00:10:34,060 S2: And Rudd did have a lot to do with that. 190 00:10:34,059 --> 00:10:38,820 S2: So for him personally, uh, it's been pretty stressful. Yeah. 191 00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:41,579 S2: And a bit messy. But I think the government says, look, 192 00:10:41,620 --> 00:10:45,660 S2: we got a lot out of his work ethic, his reputation, 193 00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:48,260 S2: his expertise on China gets him into a lot of 194 00:10:48,260 --> 00:10:51,900 S2: important rooms. They were his strengths. Yeah. I described him 195 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,100 S2: as high risk, high reward. You know, he's someone who 196 00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:58,020 S2: came with a lot of controversy and some baggage, but 197 00:10:58,020 --> 00:11:00,580 S2: he also came with a lot of strengths, and we've 198 00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:03,700 S2: seen both of those at play. I'd expect the next 199 00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:07,420 S2: person to maybe not have a significant strengths and not 200 00:11:07,420 --> 00:11:09,380 S2: have a significant downsides as well. 201 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:11,620 S1: We'll be right back. 202 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:19,020 S8: Hello to crime nuts and nuts. Just generally we're back 203 00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:22,900 S8: with series seven of Naked City. I'd like to say 204 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:25,780 S8: the delay was technical, but it's basically I'm bone lazy 205 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:29,140 S8: forced now to do it. It's pretty good. We talk 206 00:11:29,179 --> 00:11:33,140 S8: about cold cases, hot cases and cases that were never solved. 207 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:41,220 S8: Notorious crooks, brilliant detectives and baghouse reporters. Naked city out now. 208 00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:46,980 S9: There are some. 209 00:11:46,980 --> 00:11:49,660 S1: Serious challenges, I guess, that whoever the new ambassador will 210 00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:53,020 S1: be will have. I know that you reported recently that 211 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:56,689 S1: a former top British defense official has sort of flagged 212 00:11:56,690 --> 00:12:00,530 S1: that the Aukus pact might collapse in some ways. There's 213 00:12:00,570 --> 00:12:03,010 S1: ambiguities on both sides about aukus that still need to 214 00:12:03,010 --> 00:12:05,929 S1: be clarified. And I think there's some question as to 215 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:11,090 S1: whether the next appointee might aggravate activists in Trump's MAGA base, 216 00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:14,250 S1: especially if they're viewed as being very strongly in favour 217 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:17,930 S1: of diversity policies or renewable energy. So it's not a 218 00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:19,130 S1: non vexed position. 219 00:12:19,170 --> 00:12:21,450 S2: It's always going to be tricky, and you can't predict 220 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:25,410 S2: exactly what's going to come up from the Trump administration. 221 00:12:25,410 --> 00:12:27,490 S2: There's been a lot of what I'd call low level 222 00:12:27,490 --> 00:12:30,610 S2: rumblings about different policies. You know, some of the the 223 00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:33,770 S2: social media ban, some of what Australia is doing with 224 00:12:33,809 --> 00:12:38,490 S2: streaming services, making them make Australian content. A lot of 225 00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:41,770 S2: these issues, you see periodic complaints. There was a bit 226 00:12:41,770 --> 00:12:45,890 S2: of a difference of view, certainly on recognition of Palestine. 227 00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:48,970 S2: There are very different views on how to tackle climate change. 228 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:52,850 S2: All this. So the two governments are certainly not in 229 00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:56,969 S2: alignment on many big issues. That has been, uh, an 230 00:12:57,010 --> 00:13:01,010 S2: achievement by Albanese and Rudd to focus on points of commonality. 231 00:13:01,050 --> 00:13:04,929 S2: It was much more transactional. Things like critical minerals, Australia's 232 00:13:04,970 --> 00:13:08,970 S2: superannuation pool of savings. They're kind of what can America 233 00:13:08,970 --> 00:13:11,130 S2: get from us? Essentially, what can we do for you? 234 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:15,410 S2: Rather than this highfalutin talk of alliances and how many 235 00:13:15,410 --> 00:13:18,730 S2: times we've fought in a war together, shared values, shared values. 236 00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:22,050 S2: And so, so, uh aukus has got the go ahead 237 00:13:22,050 --> 00:13:25,330 S2: from Trump. That is good. But all the details are 238 00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:29,570 S2: very complicated. We still don't really know at all what 239 00:13:29,570 --> 00:13:33,050 S2: was in the Pentagon review of Aukus. We know it 240 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:38,250 S2: has recommended some changes, some tweaks. So yeah, the new 241 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:41,250 S2: ambassador is going to still have a very, uh, complicated 242 00:13:41,290 --> 00:13:45,050 S2: task ahead of them keeping up with this administration and 243 00:13:45,050 --> 00:13:47,770 S2: also just all the things that flow on from it, 244 00:13:47,770 --> 00:13:52,090 S2: everything we're seeing in the world, from Iran to Venezuela, uh, China. 245 00:13:52,130 --> 00:13:55,170 S2: Trump is going to be meeting soon with XI Jinping, 246 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,600 S2: and Australia's trying to deal with all these big powers 247 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,800 S2: and how all this is playing out. So it's going 248 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,520 S2: to be a very difficult job for sure. 249 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,679 S1: Okay. Well, let's get into then. Who might be the 250 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,840 S1: candidates who take over, because there's been a bunch of 251 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,439 S1: names that have been sort of floated, some more contentious 252 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,040 S1: than others. So tell us, I guess some of the 253 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,880 S1: main names that are being floated and what their prospects are. 254 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,320 S2: Well, the first thing I'd say, speaking to many people privately, 255 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,680 S2: is no offence to any of the names we're going 256 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,320 S2: to talk about. As many people are saying, there's not 257 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,680 S2: an outstanding standout candidate just waiting in the wings. The 258 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,440 S2: obvious person, uh, Kevin Rudd's name was up there in 259 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,480 S2: lights for a long time. As soon as you know, 260 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,680 S2: even before Albanese came into power, he was seen as 261 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,840 S2: a very well credentialed. He would be a star pick 262 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,640 S2: for this job. It's different now, um, because some have 263 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,880 S2: said the former ministers from the Rudd Gillard years. That's 264 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,950 S2: a bit down in getting into political ancient history now. 265 00:14:58,110 --> 00:15:01,110 S2: So some of the names that were immediately floated within 266 00:15:01,110 --> 00:15:06,430 S2: Labour were Stephen Conroy, who was a former senior minister 267 00:15:06,430 --> 00:15:10,350 S2: in the Rudd Gillard years. He was a communications minister 268 00:15:10,750 --> 00:15:14,310 S2: for a long time. He served in the defence portfolio 269 00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:17,510 S2: in opposition for a long time, and also Joel Fitzgibbon, 270 00:15:17,510 --> 00:15:20,390 S2: who was defence minister not for very long and in 271 00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:22,710 S2: the early days of the Rudd government. So we're really 272 00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:25,750 S2: talking about 15 years ago. An interesting thing about both 273 00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:30,190 S2: of them are essentially lobbyists. Are they running lobbying firms 274 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:33,790 S2: in Canberra? They're representing defence clients with big interests in 275 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:37,950 S2: the US. I don't think, um, they're not banned from 276 00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:42,350 S2: from being ambassador, but there'd be some perhaps uncomfortable questions 277 00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:45,630 S2: there if they ever have to pick between a company 278 00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:49,310 S2: that they lobbied for or represented in Canberra. Um, particularly 279 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:53,430 S2: with Stephen Conroy. He himself has made disparaging remarks about 280 00:15:53,470 --> 00:15:57,430 S2: Trump relatively recently, basically calling him a moron. Now, we've 281 00:15:57,430 --> 00:16:00,750 S2: been through this whole experience with Rudd and dealing with him, 282 00:16:00,750 --> 00:16:04,510 S2: deleting his old tweets and essentially kind of quasi having 283 00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:07,590 S2: to apologize for them. Why would the government want to 284 00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:13,550 S2: go through that again? So that's definitely a downside. There 285 00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:16,350 S2: has been talk about is it time to break the 286 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:19,750 S2: cycle a bit and put in someone who's less political, 287 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:22,830 S2: more of a bureaucrat in Washington? You're going back to 288 00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:27,390 S2: someone like Dennis Richardson. He ran the Defense Department, he 289 00:16:27,390 --> 00:16:31,550 S2: ran ASIO. He was a bureaucrat, you know, an expert 290 00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:35,750 S2: in foreign affairs and national security. Uh, he went there 291 00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:39,070 S2: during the Howard years and is still active in public life. 292 00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:41,710 S2: Since then, it's been more former politicians. So some people 293 00:16:41,710 --> 00:16:44,310 S2: are saying, would it be a chance to have a 294 00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:46,110 S2: bit of a break from the politics and put in 295 00:16:46,110 --> 00:16:49,110 S2: someone who's who doesn't have anything on the record really 296 00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:53,710 S2: about necessarily how they feel about Trump? Then the other thing, 297 00:16:53,710 --> 00:16:56,780 S2: which would be very interesting is the idea of should 298 00:16:56,780 --> 00:16:59,860 S2: the government appoint someone from the other side of politics, 299 00:16:59,860 --> 00:17:02,140 S2: from the conservative side of politics? Now, this would be 300 00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:06,940 S2: extremely unusual. You usually want someone who's representing the government. 301 00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:09,580 S2: The idea that this is getting more attention this time 302 00:17:09,580 --> 00:17:13,820 S2: is because you've got a conservative Trump administration in power. 303 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:17,700 S2: So should they put someone, uh, more conservative, more in 304 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:22,500 S2: line with that in there? Um, we've seen, uh, Joe Hockey, 305 00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:25,700 S2: who's a former ambassador at tweeting that he would support, 306 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,540 S2: for example, Peter Dutton being appointed to the role, that 307 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:31,980 S2: that would be in the national interest for him to go. Now, 308 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:35,219 S2: we don't know what the Prime Minister will say about that, 309 00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:38,020 S2: but there there's a lot of names being floated. It's 310 00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:41,100 S2: quite possible the names in the early days are not correct. 311 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:43,020 S2: This decision, I think, is going to be very tightly 312 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:49,260 S2: held between Albanese and Foreign Minister Penny Wong. Uh, but 313 00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:51,620 S2: it won't take too long because Rudd's leaving in March, 314 00:17:51,619 --> 00:17:54,460 S2: so we'll need to know who's going to replace him 315 00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:55,060 S2: pretty soon. 316 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:57,899 S1: Okay, well, I can't drop that Peter Dutton suggestion without 317 00:17:57,940 --> 00:18:00,459 S1: without giving you a follow up question on that. How 318 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:04,379 S1: outlandish a suggestion is that or even credible? Joe Hockey, 319 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:06,540 S1: it seems like, is barracking for that. But here we're 320 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:09,460 S1: talking about the former leader of the opposition, who, of course, 321 00:18:09,619 --> 00:18:11,780 S1: you know, spent months and months on the campaign trail 322 00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:16,180 S1: just trashing albaneses, you know, defence strategy, the way he's 323 00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:18,900 S1: handling the economy. I mean, everything really. 324 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:23,140 S2: Now, they apparently always got along pretty well personally, despite 325 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:28,300 S2: their significant political differences. They have a good rapport. That's 326 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,460 S2: one thing going for it. The difference would be, could 327 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:38,179 S2: you imagine Peter Dutton prosecuting the Albanese government's agenda in Washington. 328 00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:40,820 S2: Now the key is to minimize differences so the ambassador 329 00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:46,380 S2: won't be, uh, championing climate change per se, for example, 330 00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:49,820 S2: action on climate change, which would be very difficult for 331 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:53,850 S2: Peter Dutton to do given his history. Um, but yeah, 332 00:18:53,890 --> 00:18:55,810 S2: I think I think that would be big questions about 333 00:18:55,810 --> 00:18:59,850 S2: could he prosecute a labor government's agenda? Would he be 334 00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:03,170 S2: seen as having the ear of the Prime Minister? It's 335 00:19:03,170 --> 00:19:06,970 S2: not like he's known in, uh, Washington. No, we might 336 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:10,449 S2: see him as more in line with Trump style politics. Uh, 337 00:19:10,450 --> 00:19:12,889 S2: but it was quite clear during the campaign that Trump 338 00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:15,810 S2: didn't know. Had never heard of Dutton was. So it's 339 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:18,609 S2: not like he's that well known. He's known as star 340 00:19:18,609 --> 00:19:22,609 S2: within the MAGA universe. So yeah, it seems like an 341 00:19:22,609 --> 00:19:25,930 S2: outlandish idea. We have to kick the tires on all 342 00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:28,090 S2: these things. There's a lot of speculation, a lot of 343 00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:31,890 S2: names being floated. Some people are moving chess pieces around 344 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:35,210 S2: the board. Say if a senior cabinet minister went to 345 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:37,930 S2: do it, that would open up possibilities for other people 346 00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:41,450 S2: to take. Is it a chance to someone who's hanging 347 00:19:41,450 --> 00:19:43,570 S2: around that it would be useful place to send them? 348 00:19:43,570 --> 00:19:46,250 S2: There's all types of agendas at play with a job 349 00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:47,290 S2: like this. 350 00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:49,050 S1: Well, we're lucky that we have you at least half 351 00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:51,050 S1: of the time sort of roaming the halls of Parliament House, 352 00:19:51,050 --> 00:19:52,610 S1: so you'll have your ear to the ground, I'm sure, 353 00:19:52,650 --> 00:19:55,409 S1: on it. So. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Sam. 354 00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:55,970 S2: Thank you. 355 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:10,530 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 356 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:14,930 S1: and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom 357 00:20:14,930 --> 00:20:17,729 S1: McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our 358 00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:20,890 S1: episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition 359 00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:25,050 S1: on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our 360 00:20:25,050 --> 00:20:29,330 S1: newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, 361 00:20:29,330 --> 00:20:34,930 S1: visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And to stay up 362 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:37,369 S1: to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to 363 00:20:37,410 --> 00:20:40,090 S1: receive a summary of the day's most important news in 364 00:20:40,090 --> 00:20:43,889 S1: your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. 365 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:47,370 S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.