1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,120 S1: Hi, it's Jacqueline Maley here. We're still on a summer break, 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,400 S1: but we're set to return in two weeks for another 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,559 S1: year of inside Politics. Today we're going back to a 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:14,200 S1: 2025 episode released just after Anthony Albanese's successful meeting with 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,280 S1: Donald Trump, and one in which we had a special guest, 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,200 S1: former labor opposition leader Bill shorten. Bill also had some 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,360 S1: advice for the Liberal opposition and its leader, Sussan Ley, 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,880 S1: before a slight diversion into discussing the dress sense of 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:35,080 S1: our chief political correspondent, Paul Cicala. Bill, you're running a 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,320 S1: university now. We just want to ask you about the 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,920 S1: transition from politics. And there must be a part of you, 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,959 S1: a little tiny, tiny part of you that looks at 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,400 S1: the events of the week with Anthony Albanese in the 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,880 S1: white House and thinks that could have been me, because 15 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,720 S1: you were very much a contender. 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,760 S2: Ah, I'd have to say that part of me you 17 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,160 S2: would need a microscope to find. Really. I find it 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,370 S2: incredibly interesting. And obviously I want Australia to do as 19 00:01:01,370 --> 00:01:04,770 S2: well as we can. So the biggest emotion I had 20 00:01:04,770 --> 00:01:07,530 S2: watching the week was one of relief. I think it 21 00:01:07,569 --> 00:01:11,809 S2: went as well as any foreign leader's visits gone with 22 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:15,730 S2: The Donald. So yeah, I was just relieved for Anthony. 23 00:01:15,730 --> 00:01:18,850 S2: I was relieved for the government and even more importantly, 24 00:01:18,850 --> 00:01:20,130 S2: I was relieved for Australia. 25 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:22,369 S3: It felt a little bit absurd just having to sign 26 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:26,090 S3: you into the Parliament as a guest. And the security 27 00:01:26,170 --> 00:01:27,810 S3: people looked at you and thought, how is this bloke 28 00:01:27,850 --> 00:01:30,569 S3: a guest? How does it feel being back in here? 29 00:01:30,569 --> 00:01:32,730 S3: And are you like some of the other politicians who 30 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:34,929 S3: the weaning off politics is like getting rid of a 31 00:01:34,930 --> 00:01:35,570 S3: drug addiction. 32 00:01:35,569 --> 00:01:39,770 S2: Are listen again to. You know, I must be more 33 00:01:39,770 --> 00:01:41,610 S2: in touch with my emotional side since I've come on 34 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:44,490 S2: this podcast in the last 38 seconds. But what was 35 00:01:44,490 --> 00:01:48,450 S2: really nice is that the lady attendant said, oh, Mr. Shorten, 36 00:01:48,450 --> 00:01:51,250 S2: we need to see your ID but for me, I'm 37 00:01:51,250 --> 00:01:53,010 S2: a glass half full guy. So I thought, oh, she 38 00:01:53,010 --> 00:01:59,460 S2: still remembers my name. No. And the security guards are lovely. So, um. Yeah, 39 00:01:59,460 --> 00:02:02,140 S2: but I'm glad to see that, you know, they've got 40 00:02:02,140 --> 00:02:05,340 S2: a system for me and. Yeah, it's it's fine. I 41 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:07,500 S2: must get around to getting a pass, but I think 42 00:02:07,540 --> 00:02:10,980 S2: the the the question underlying it, Paul, you're asking me 43 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:14,500 S2: is am I missing the joint? Uh, no. I think 44 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,179 S2: what happens is really important. But I've now got this 45 00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:20,380 S2: fabulous new job leading the University of Canberra. Uh, and 46 00:02:20,380 --> 00:02:24,139 S2: I can still impact the national interests by helping ensure 47 00:02:24,139 --> 00:02:27,260 S2: that people get good education. We do good research. So 48 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:31,419 S2: I now live in Canberra. Uh, having flown here as 49 00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:34,660 S2: a sort of parliamentary mining town, fly in, fly out 50 00:02:34,660 --> 00:02:37,940 S2: for 17.5 years. I now live here. I'm not sure 51 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:41,620 S2: my family's totally happy about that, but they're getting used 52 00:02:41,620 --> 00:02:44,380 S2: to Canberra. No, but I like my new job. And, um, 53 00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:50,980 S2: I'm pleased to see that the mesmerising rollercoaster which is 54 00:02:51,220 --> 00:02:54,900 S2: President Trump and the administration, I'm pleased to see that, um, 55 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:58,150 S2: Anthony dance between the raindrops and seemed to get some 56 00:02:58,150 --> 00:03:00,070 S2: good outcomes for Australia and the way through. 57 00:03:00,110 --> 00:03:03,070 S1: Yeah, so let's get into that. Because whatever politics you 58 00:03:03,070 --> 00:03:05,750 S1: might still have, we're happy to help you scratch. If 59 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:06,710 S1: that doesn't sound too. 60 00:03:06,710 --> 00:03:07,550 S2: I'm still interested. 61 00:03:07,590 --> 00:03:09,990 S1: Yes, we want to get into Albo in Washington. It 62 00:03:09,990 --> 00:03:11,830 S1: was obviously the story of the week. It was pretty 63 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:14,590 S1: much the story. I watched the whole press conference again 64 00:03:14,590 --> 00:03:16,590 S1: last night, and I was just so intrigued by the 65 00:03:16,590 --> 00:03:18,830 S1: body language and the theatrics of it, and the way 66 00:03:18,830 --> 00:03:21,430 S1: that Donald Trump sort of imposes his control over the 67 00:03:21,430 --> 00:03:26,030 S1: whole show by putting down journalists, notably our own Michael Koziol. 68 00:03:26,510 --> 00:03:29,310 S4: Who do you where do you come from? Australia. What? 69 00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:29,950 S4: Who are you with? 70 00:03:30,030 --> 00:03:30,870 S5: Sydney Morning Herald. 71 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:32,630 S4: Nasty guy. Go ahead. 72 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:33,070 S5: Sorry. 73 00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:34,710 S4: All right. Go ahead. 74 00:03:35,070 --> 00:03:36,589 S5: On your, um, your first. 75 00:03:37,350 --> 00:03:39,910 S1: Anthony Albanese's to me seemed quite nervous at the beginning. 76 00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:42,430 S1: He was fiddling with his pen. He was fidgeting his 77 00:03:42,430 --> 00:03:45,510 S1: hands like that was a real tell. What do you think? 78 00:03:45,550 --> 00:03:48,270 S1: You've you've met, you know, world leaders. You've been in 79 00:03:48,270 --> 00:03:52,150 S1: high stakes negotiations. You've been in these kinds of rooms, 80 00:03:52,150 --> 00:03:55,110 S1: if not the white House itself. What would Anthony Albanese 81 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,560 S1: have been feeling going into that meeting. 82 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:03,400 S2: He would have been hyper prepared. Uh, I think the government, 83 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,120 S2: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the government would 84 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,680 S2: have war gamed, uh, this meeting within an inch of 85 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,320 S2: its life, as they should. But what I really thought 86 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,320 S2: was good is the, uh, rare earths deal was clever. 87 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,880 S2: At the end of the day, whatever else people think 88 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,320 S2: about the government in America, they know they need rare minerals, 89 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,279 S2: rare earths. And we came with a deal which was 90 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,800 S2: in their sweet spot. Uh, so I think it was 91 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,640 S2: a smart deal. It was a smart arrangement. 92 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,120 S4: You know, the man on my right has a big advantage. 93 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,960 S4: You know that, right? Uh, but I think he's doing 94 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,960 S4: a really I think he's doing a really good job. 95 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,080 S4: And we've had a very good relationship. I don't want 96 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:41,680 S4: to compare one. 97 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,800 S2: It was interesting. I don't know how they do the 98 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,880 S2: protocols of do you sit down in an armchair opposite 99 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,120 S2: The Donald, or do you sit at the big table? 100 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,640 S2: I thought the big table was much more professional looking. Yeah. Anyway. 101 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:53,479 S2: And obviously. 102 00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:54,020 S3: Couches. 103 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:56,460 S2: Even though Kevin got some free character advice from The 104 00:04:56,460 --> 00:04:58,420 S2: Donald on the way through, I think Kevin must have 105 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:00,860 S2: done some good behind the scenes work. I thought that 106 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:04,700 S2: was Australian diplomacy at its most professional. And so, yeah, 107 00:05:04,860 --> 00:05:08,859 S2: I'm sure Anthony knew that for all a sort of 108 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:11,420 S2: laid back nature, we'll see him when we see him. 109 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:14,780 S2: That was an important meeting. And if you weren't, I 110 00:05:14,779 --> 00:05:16,620 S2: don't claim to understand if he was nervous or not, 111 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:19,940 S2: but if you weren't feeling nervous, you wouldn't be human. Yeah. Because, 112 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:25,859 S2: you know, President Trump, you know, sort of probably has, uh, 113 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:27,779 S2: more changeability than Melbourne weather. 114 00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:30,299 S1: Yeah, I thought I thought he seemed nervous only because 115 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:33,299 S1: of the hands. But then he mastered those nerves very, 116 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:34,700 S1: very masterfully. Paul. 117 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:36,140 S3: Body language expert. Jack. 118 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:38,220 S1: Yeah, I was I think the theatrics of it are 119 00:05:38,220 --> 00:05:41,060 S1: really interesting. And maybe it's the novelist in me, but 120 00:05:41,060 --> 00:05:43,060 S1: I'm just looking at the sort of interpersonal stuff as 121 00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:46,339 S1: well as the political. But so, Paul, the overwhelming consensus 122 00:05:46,339 --> 00:05:48,820 S1: was the meeting was obviously a roaring success. We got 123 00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:50,940 S1: the critical minerals deal. I mean, you cannot pick fault 124 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:54,070 S1: with that. It's like this beautiful confluence of timing opportunity. 125 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:56,750 S1: But what about the orcas stuff? Let's talk about orcas 126 00:05:56,750 --> 00:05:59,750 S1: because that was a significant matter as well. We got 127 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:03,229 S1: a lot of reassurances. Michael Koziol, our own reporter, asked 128 00:06:03,230 --> 00:06:07,070 S1: Trump about it, and Trump gave all these reassurances. Paul, 129 00:06:07,070 --> 00:06:08,990 S1: I'll go to you first. I mean, how much can 130 00:06:09,029 --> 00:06:12,070 S1: we count on those reassurances on on orcas? Like what? 131 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:14,830 S1: When you drill down, do we actually get anything on 132 00:06:14,830 --> 00:06:15,950 S1: orcas from Trump? 133 00:06:16,270 --> 00:06:19,349 S3: Yeah. Well, I think having him make a declarative comment 134 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:22,190 S3: as he did was critical, even if there might have 135 00:06:22,190 --> 00:06:24,150 S3: been a bit of bluster in it, even though he 136 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:27,150 S3: might have overruled his Navy chief sitting across the desk, 137 00:06:27,150 --> 00:06:29,150 S3: who said that there was still some tweaks with orcas 138 00:06:29,150 --> 00:06:32,390 S3: that needed to be looked at. Having Trump speak positively 139 00:06:32,390 --> 00:06:34,190 S3: about the deal, which has been up for review for 140 00:06:34,190 --> 00:06:39,270 S3: months now, was absolutely crucial because no matter what, Elbridge Colby, 141 00:06:39,310 --> 00:06:43,029 S3: the defense undersecretary in the Pentagon, thinks about the ability 142 00:06:43,070 --> 00:06:45,630 S3: for the US to give up subs in six years, 143 00:06:45,630 --> 00:06:47,789 S3: which had not been produced at a high enough quantity. 144 00:06:48,029 --> 00:06:51,800 S3: When you've got presidential authority, you put your seal on it. 145 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,680 S3: So that was crucial for Australia. There are still obviously 146 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,599 S3: big questions about how Aukus lands in 5 or 6 147 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,960 S3: years time. It's soaking up a lot of our defence budget. 148 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,960 S3: There are still huge questions about whether the US will 149 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,680 S3: give up subs in the end. And Bill, I thought 150 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,760 S3: I'd just move to where we wanted to go next, 151 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,120 S3: which was with these questions still looming over Aukus and 152 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,480 S3: how a future president might deal with Australia and whether 153 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,200 S3: they'll be willing to hand these over. Do you think 154 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,160 S3: there is still scope for an Australian government to do 155 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,000 S3: more examination of the Yorkist deal? Would you have signed 156 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,040 S3: up to Aukus as quickly as this labor government did, 157 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,320 S3: almost without review? 158 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,280 S2: Um, well, I think the first part was the importance 159 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,760 S2: of President Trump endorsing Aukus. I mean, the MAGA movement 160 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:45,080 S2: which sustains Donald Trump's electoral success, the Make America Great 161 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,010 S2: Again has a very strong isolationist tendency that they don't 162 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:52,050 S2: want to get involved in the rest of the world's problems. 163 00:07:52,050 --> 00:07:57,090 S2: Leave them alone. And sometimes that aspect of President Trump's 164 00:07:57,090 --> 00:08:00,730 S2: policies emerges. But what I thought we saw on display 165 00:08:01,250 --> 00:08:06,850 S2: was the, I think for Australia, the more reassuring, internationalist, 166 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:10,930 S2: more classical republican play that they've got a role in 167 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:16,050 S2: the world and without, you know, overhyping the China America rivalry. 168 00:08:16,770 --> 00:08:22,330 S2: The Americans were giving at their most senior level reassurance 169 00:08:22,330 --> 00:08:27,530 S2: that Aukus is part of this MAGA administration. So I 170 00:08:27,530 --> 00:08:31,490 S2: think that was not to be underestimated. In terms of 171 00:08:31,530 --> 00:08:35,370 S2: your point about the scrutiny of the deal, like this 172 00:08:35,370 --> 00:08:38,170 S2: deal is going to be scrutinised for the next 20 years, 173 00:08:38,210 --> 00:08:42,050 S2: like it's the auditing of this Aukus scheme and value 174 00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:47,250 S2: is going to spawn university degrees and industries of auditors. 175 00:08:47,290 --> 00:08:48,940 S3: But the government hasn't examined it. 176 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:52,059 S2: I think you'll find the government does examine a lot 177 00:08:52,059 --> 00:08:57,620 S2: of its expenditure. And the Americans have an expression about 178 00:08:57,620 --> 00:09:00,420 S2: momentum in politics, and they call it the Big Mo. 179 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:04,380 S2: And I think the orcas got some big Mo again 180 00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:10,020 S2: this week. And, you know, in the atmospherics of there's 181 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:13,699 S2: no bigger circus or show on earth at the moment 182 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:16,380 S2: than the Trump White House. It doesn't mean it's anything 183 00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:20,219 S2: happening in the world. It's obviously not. But, uh, that 184 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:23,460 S2: was Australia's sort of 15 minutes in the big circus, 185 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,939 S2: and we got out with our skin intact and a 186 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:32,540 S2: deal done. So yeah, I think this week was quite remarkable. 187 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:34,420 S1: I note as well, I looked at the New York 188 00:09:34,420 --> 00:09:37,180 S1: Times website this morning and the, the, the main story 189 00:09:37,179 --> 00:09:39,579 S1: on the New York Times website is about America's sort 190 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:41,740 S1: of deals on critical minerals. And you click through and 191 00:09:41,740 --> 00:09:44,740 S1: there's a big old photo of Anthony Albanese. So, I mean, 192 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:47,350 S1: it's not often that that we would make international news 193 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:49,630 S1: in that way, or that an Australian prime minister would. 194 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:51,830 S1: I want to ask you both about this other comment 195 00:09:51,830 --> 00:09:54,429 S1: that Trump made, though, kind of related to Aukus, where 196 00:09:54,429 --> 00:09:56,390 S1: he was asked about China and the threat of China 197 00:09:56,429 --> 00:09:59,670 S1: and whether or not China has any interest in invading Taiwan. 198 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:01,110 S1: And he said, oh, I don't think we're going to 199 00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:04,429 S1: need it. When speaking about the Aukus pact, because he 200 00:10:04,429 --> 00:10:07,030 S1: doesn't think that President XI is going to make any 201 00:10:07,030 --> 00:10:09,790 S1: moves on Taiwan. And I thought that was an extraordinary 202 00:10:09,830 --> 00:10:12,189 S1: thing for an American president to say in the context 203 00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:14,870 S1: of having batted down this pact and, you know, made 204 00:10:14,910 --> 00:10:17,150 S1: sort of positive noises about this pact and then say, oh, 205 00:10:17,150 --> 00:10:19,030 S1: I don't think we're going to need it anyway. Paul, 206 00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:21,270 S1: why would he say that? Was it just bluster or 207 00:10:21,429 --> 00:10:22,470 S1: what's going on there? 208 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:25,709 S3: Yeah, I think he said two things on Aukus in 209 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:28,270 S3: terms of its relation to China. He did say explicitly 210 00:10:28,270 --> 00:10:30,510 S3: that it was a deterrent, and that that was a 211 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:33,630 S3: key element of the Yorkist deal was to deter China. 212 00:10:33,790 --> 00:10:36,110 S3: But in the same breath, he made this comment that, 213 00:10:36,110 --> 00:10:37,709 S3: as you say, I don't think we're going to need 214 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,870 S3: it because he has a benign view of President Xi's 215 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:44,750 S3: intentions in relation to Taiwan. I think probably what you're 216 00:10:44,750 --> 00:10:46,280 S3: seeing there, it's a bit hard to read. Trump I 217 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,640 S3: don't claim to have all the answers, but he's made 218 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,199 S3: a bunch of different comments over his administration and in 219 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,320 S3: his first term about his ability to, through his unpredictability, 220 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,480 S3: his kind of mercurial nature, and his threats to use 221 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,319 S3: hard US power, his ability to keep people like, gee, 222 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,640 S3: like Putin, like actors in the Middle East, like Kim 223 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,319 S3: Jong UN from North Korea, to keep them calm and 224 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,200 S3: through his kind of force of nature, stop them from 225 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,520 S3: taking drastic action that might hurt us interests. I mean, 226 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,520 S3: I don't think he was reflecting the strategic reality of 227 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,200 S3: the relationship with China. The balance of power is much 228 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,120 S3: more contested than he suggested. He said the US has 229 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,680 S3: much more military might than China in the Indo-Pacific. That's 230 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,360 S3: just not right. According to analysts and his own chief advisers, 231 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,640 S3: Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio and the chief of the Navy, 232 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,839 S3: who were sitting on the same table as him, have 233 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,880 S3: all said in recent months that China's threat in the 234 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,760 S3: Indo-Pacific in relation to Taiwan is potentially imminent and a 235 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,330 S3: crucial topic for concern of US strategy. So I think 236 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:49,730 S3: there's Trump trying to keep the relationship with China from 237 00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:53,250 S3: not boiling over, particularly as he's about to meet XI 238 00:11:53,530 --> 00:11:57,329 S3: as this trade war is becoming more real over critical minerals. 239 00:11:57,330 --> 00:12:00,690 S3: I think that was more politics and bluster than reflecting 240 00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:01,850 S3: US strategy. 241 00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:03,370 S1: Bill, what did you make of that comment? 242 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:10,010 S2: I think, um, Western strategists almost have a twin track 243 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:14,610 S2: strategy about China and Taiwan. Mhm. On one hand, it's 244 00:12:14,610 --> 00:12:19,490 S2: certainly the case that the defense establishment and our security 245 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:26,530 S2: agencies are very conscious of Chinese espionage and their military expansion. 246 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:29,530 S2: But on the other hand, we recognize that you never 247 00:12:29,570 --> 00:12:31,850 S2: want to put someone in a corner where they feel 248 00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:34,569 S2: there's only one option. Yeah. So I don't know if 249 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:37,890 S2: there was any conscious strategy in what President Trump said 250 00:12:37,890 --> 00:12:41,929 S2: by sort of not always using bellicose language about China. Mhm. 251 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:44,179 S2: I mean, I recently had the opportunity to go to 252 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:48,980 S2: Taiwan to uh, visit with Taiwanese universities. And I was curious, 253 00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:51,980 S2: what is the sort of person in the street in Taiwan. 254 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:55,380 S2: Think about China. And I can't pretend after five days 255 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:59,540 S2: I worked that all out. But I think Taiwanese people 256 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:03,059 S2: know they've got a neighbor who's very different to them. 257 00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:09,300 S2: But they weren't perhaps as obsessed about imminent Chinese conflict 258 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,420 S2: as some of our Western agencies. But whether or not 259 00:13:12,420 --> 00:13:15,420 S2: that's because people have learned to sort of live with 260 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:19,460 S2: their neighbor without necessarily fully trusting their neighbor, that could 261 00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:22,620 S2: be it. But I thought, I'm quite happy when I 262 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:26,060 S2: hear world leaders not talk in a bellicose fashion. So, 263 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:29,740 S2: you know, again, take your wins. And I think though, 264 00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:34,780 S2: the security establishments are still very mindful of China. And 265 00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:37,339 S2: I think one of the big challenges for Western leaders 266 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:42,190 S2: is that a lot of Western leaders and politicians operate 267 00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:46,870 S2: on personal relationships and negotiations, whereas I think some of 268 00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:50,590 S2: the more autocratic countries, it's not just about personal relationships. 269 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:55,469 S2: And I think sometimes Western liberal democracies struggle with the 270 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:58,510 S2: notion that you might have people or nations who just 271 00:13:58,510 --> 00:14:00,270 S2: don't care about the rule of law. I'm not putting 272 00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:03,550 S2: China fully in that category. But take, for instance, Russia. 273 00:14:04,070 --> 00:14:06,350 S2: You could have a personal relationship with Putin, but I'm 274 00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:09,270 S2: not sure that changes any facts on the ground about 275 00:14:09,270 --> 00:14:10,630 S2: Russian expansionism. 276 00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:12,750 S3: Do you think the PM struck up a did it 277 00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:15,189 S3: look like a real rapport with Trump? Do you think 278 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:18,390 S3: Trump would call the PM if he's wondering about China strategy? 279 00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:22,270 S2: Even accepting my rubric that perhaps we sometimes deal with 280 00:14:22,270 --> 00:14:27,110 S2: dictatorships and authoritarian countries for whom personal relationships aren't the 281 00:14:27,150 --> 00:14:31,110 S2: sort of meat and potatoes of politics? I think with Trump, 282 00:14:31,150 --> 00:14:36,870 S2: personal relationships is important. I also think that Trump has 283 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,510 S2: a worldview and, you know, whether or not you agree 284 00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:43,010 S2: with it or not. He seems to like winners. Anthony's 285 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:46,330 S2: victory in May of this year was pretty decisive. 286 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:48,570 S1: And he mentioned that I mean, he really mentioned that 287 00:14:48,570 --> 00:14:51,410 S1: he's aware of that. Um, yeah, Trump mentioned that. I mean. 288 00:14:52,610 --> 00:14:55,210 S2: Whether or not you think that's the right logic to have. 289 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:59,610 S2: I mean, also, apparently Trump likes people who are physically pleasing, 290 00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:02,410 S2: you know, and physically pleasing. Yeah. 291 00:15:02,410 --> 00:15:04,850 S1: Well, I don't think we can accuse our Prime Minister 292 00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:08,250 S1: of that, but let's not make personal comments about people's looks. 293 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:11,330 S2: No, no, no, I was talking about Trump. But mind you, 294 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:14,650 S2: talking about personal comments, one of the sort of sideshows 295 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:18,450 S2: of the whole visit was the media's sort of love 296 00:15:18,450 --> 00:15:19,650 S2: hate with The Donald. 297 00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:20,490 S1: Yeah, I know. 298 00:15:20,730 --> 00:15:22,970 S2: As much as I'm sure journalists hate being told off 299 00:15:22,970 --> 00:15:25,650 S2: by him, I feel that they must sort of swagger 300 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:29,090 S2: back into their media rooms in Australia and say, hey, yeah, 301 00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:31,850 S2: he insulted me. So. Oh yeah, it's a sort of 302 00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:33,450 S2: a sort of bondage relationship. 303 00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:35,570 S1: It's like a badge of honour, I reckon. Now it's 304 00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:37,450 S1: all good for business if you're a journalist. 305 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:40,180 S2: Yeah, it's a bit like it's right up there with 306 00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:41,660 S2: being blacklisted by the Russians. 307 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,859 S1: Yeah, yeah. So it's all good for business. 308 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:46,300 S3: I wanted to ask you about something Sean Carney, our columnist, 309 00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:49,580 S3: wrote today. He talked about the elements of luck and 310 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:51,660 S3: circumstance that have led to the Prime Minister being in 311 00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:53,700 S3: the position he's in. He's often been quite critical of 312 00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:56,180 S3: the Prime Minister, I should say. He mentioned that the 313 00:15:56,220 --> 00:15:59,060 S3: PM was in the UK talking about our lack of 314 00:15:59,060 --> 00:16:01,580 S3: illegal immigration being a key reason we don't have a 315 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:04,300 S3: populist right movement. The Prime Minister obviously fought very hard 316 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:08,140 S3: against that policy in 2015. When you shifted Labour policy 317 00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:10,500 S3: on that question in response to the turn back policy. 318 00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:12,820 S3: You've also, as a leader of the Labour right, fought 319 00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:17,220 S3: against Albaneses left faction since you were at university, in 320 00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:19,940 S3: terms of how the Labor Party should relate to the 321 00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:22,740 S3: US and how strongly it should support the US alliance, 322 00:16:22,980 --> 00:16:24,740 S3: someone who's known him for a long time. The Prime 323 00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:27,500 S3: Minister said to me last week that he's growing in 324 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:30,780 S3: the role because he's turning into someone who puts stewardship 325 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:34,580 S3: of the country and nurturing of our institutions ahead of 326 00:16:34,580 --> 00:16:37,350 S3: his personal ideology. Do you see him growing into the 327 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:38,190 S3: role in that way? 328 00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:42,870 S2: You watch people get elected and some shrink and some grow. 329 00:16:43,190 --> 00:16:47,150 S2: And I think Anthony's clearly in the he's doing better. 330 00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:51,630 S2: Each experience builds his confidence. And also just you learn 331 00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:59,910 S2: valuable lessons. You can't really understand leadership until you've been there. And, um, 332 00:17:00,230 --> 00:17:02,030 S2: whilst I haven't been prime minister, I know what it's 333 00:17:02,030 --> 00:17:06,470 S2: like to lead the party. And you just see he 334 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:08,630 S2: backs his own judgement a fair bit. And I think 335 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:11,030 S2: that's what a leader actually has to do. When you're 336 00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:14,030 S2: a leader of a mainstream political party in this country, 337 00:17:14,310 --> 00:17:16,030 S2: you get a lot of advice. You get a lot 338 00:17:16,030 --> 00:17:17,870 S2: of people saying, don't do this, don't do that. And 339 00:17:17,869 --> 00:17:20,830 S2: sometimes that advice can be crippling. You wouldn't get out 340 00:17:20,869 --> 00:17:22,350 S2: of bed in the morning. You'd pull the doona over 341 00:17:22,350 --> 00:17:24,830 S2: because everyone says, do this, do that. And what I 342 00:17:24,830 --> 00:17:29,350 S2: see is, uh, Anthony certainly backing his judgment. And so 343 00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:31,990 S2: I think he is stepping up in the job. And 344 00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:34,710 S2: I think there'd be conservatives who would say that, too. Yeah. 345 00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:38,400 S2: Having said that, you went back to that earlier point. Yeah, 346 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,120 S2: there's no question that I've always supported the American Alliance. 347 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,280 S2: And indeed I supported boat turn backs, and not everyone 348 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,480 S2: in the party has. But hey, I might not have 349 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,159 S2: the job, but it would seem that some of the 350 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,119 S2: positions I took ten years ago seemed to be the 351 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,560 S2: right call. So, you know, that's. 352 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,080 S1: And hopefully on a future podcast, we're going to get 353 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,080 S1: you back and talk about some of the sort of 354 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,400 S1: more controversial economic policies you took to the 2019 election 355 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,480 S1: and whether or not you're right on those, and you'll 356 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,800 S1: be proven right one day. But that's, that's a, that's a, 357 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,120 S1: that's a conversation for another time. We need to talk 358 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,280 S1: about Kevin because speaking of Anthony Albanese backing in his 359 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,800 S1: own judgment, Kevin obviously got a dressing down very publicly. 360 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,760 S4: Where is he? Is he still working for you? 361 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,280 S6: Yeah. 362 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:22,919 S4: You said that. 363 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,439 S7: Before I took this position, Mr. President. 364 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,640 S4: I don't like you either, and I probably never will. 365 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,119 S4: Go ahead. 366 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,840 S1: There might be many of Kevin's former parliamentary colleagues who 367 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:38,490 S1: could relate to that sentiment. Rudd, I think, recovered pretty well. Paul, 368 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:42,050 S1: you know that from your extended research that Rudd actually 369 00:18:42,050 --> 00:18:44,409 S1: did a lot behind the scenes to make this meeting 370 00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:47,410 S1: happen and to make the critical minerals deal happen, isn't 371 00:18:47,410 --> 00:18:47,970 S1: that right? 372 00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:50,850 S3: Yeah, I think there's that is absolutely right. There's a 373 00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:54,050 S3: there's a kind of paradox with Rudd and his work 374 00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:56,649 S3: in the US. There's a school of thought, and I 375 00:18:56,650 --> 00:18:58,490 S3: think there's some truth to it that he struggles with 376 00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:00,650 S3: access in parts of the white House. There are some 377 00:19:00,650 --> 00:19:03,610 S3: people around Trump who are not fans of Rudd, and 378 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:06,169 S3: that does limit his access in some regards, where a 379 00:19:06,170 --> 00:19:08,889 S3: person like Joe Hockey or Arthur Sinodinos would not have struggled. 380 00:19:09,170 --> 00:19:12,850 S3: But in other regards, Rudd works the Congress incredibly hard. 381 00:19:13,130 --> 00:19:16,050 S3: He works Trump's cabinet incredibly hard. He's got good relationships 382 00:19:16,050 --> 00:19:19,889 S3: with Scott Bessent, with Jamieson Greer and with Howard Lutnick, 383 00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:24,090 S3: and he's also got fantastic contacts inside the State Department 384 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:27,770 S3: with Marco Rubio and inside the Pentagon to this critical 385 00:19:27,770 --> 00:19:30,810 S3: minerals deal was faltering for months. In the early part 386 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:32,899 S3: of this year, we put it on the table to 387 00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:36,859 S3: the Americans when Trump threatened tariffs. It fell over. Rudd 388 00:19:36,859 --> 00:19:39,540 S3: didn't stop working. He's been bringing miners and the heads 389 00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:42,260 S3: of BHP and Rio into the white House to meet 390 00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:45,060 S3: with Trump on some occasions, and he's just worked with, 391 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,740 S3: from all reports, incredible energy. Night and day, to convince 392 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:52,060 S3: the Americans that we are the pathway through their issue 393 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:54,780 S3: to their dispute with China. So I think he deserves 394 00:19:54,780 --> 00:19:58,100 S3: great credit. Tony Abbott gave him credit this week. Various 395 00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:00,619 S3: others did who you wouldn't consider typical allies of Rudd. 396 00:20:00,619 --> 00:20:03,379 S3: And I think Susan Lee's overreach calling for him to 397 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:05,780 S3: be or effectively calling for him to be sacked also 398 00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:08,859 S3: really helped Albanese because even though there was that very 399 00:20:08,859 --> 00:20:11,900 S3: awkward moment with Trump that did cast doubt on Rudd's role, 400 00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:14,980 S3: the overreach meant that the criticism wasn't taken seriously. 401 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:16,580 S1: Bill, do you have anything to add to that? 402 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:20,420 S2: No, I think Kevin did well. He I agree with 403 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:23,859 S2: a lot of Paul's analysis. Um, you know, was it 404 00:20:23,859 --> 00:20:26,820 S2: a bit gratuitous of the PM? Sorry, of the president 405 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:28,699 S2: to sledge him, I don't know. You know, part of 406 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,390 S2: me as an Australian doesn't want to see an Australian 407 00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:33,429 S2: dressed down by someone else. I don't care what party 408 00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:35,949 S2: or what you think of the Aussie. You know you 409 00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:38,469 S2: want to stand up for the Australian. But listen, I 410 00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:43,590 S2: thought if this was Anthony's big success, I think it 411 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:46,750 S2: was certainly some of it's due to Kevin and I 412 00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:48,869 S2: think he deserves some credit for that. Love him or 413 00:20:48,869 --> 00:20:51,470 S2: hate him, you can't take away, I think, from Paul's. 414 00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:54,149 S3: Should he be extended his term. It's up next year. 415 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:55,630 S2: It's not up to me. 416 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:57,870 S1: Do you think I mean, obviously you ousted him or 417 00:20:57,869 --> 00:21:00,990 S1: you were instrumental in ousting him from the prime ministership. 418 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:03,750 S1: If we don't want to rake over the past. But 419 00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:05,230 S1: it is on the public record. 420 00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:07,150 S2: What is it about? If we don't want to rake 421 00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:09,670 S2: over the past, you then start raking over the past. 422 00:21:09,910 --> 00:21:11,630 S2: I'm just trying to work out the self-awareness. 423 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:15,310 S1: Quotient in these sort of nasty sort of, um, you know, um, skeletons. 424 00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:17,590 S2: Our listeners, we're not torturing you to bring it up. 425 00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:20,030 S2: But anyway, we're not, like, tickling you with a feather 426 00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:21,550 S2: and making you just go there. 427 00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:23,070 S3: I was secretly hoping she brought it up. 428 00:21:23,109 --> 00:21:25,390 S2: What's been happening is that Kevin Rudd was a very 429 00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:28,270 S2: good prime minister, and we've done some remarkable things since 430 00:21:28,270 --> 00:21:30,880 S2: defeating John Howard. But I think you'd have to live 431 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,880 S2: on the moon to think that this government wasn't off 432 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,480 S2: track seriously, in the last few months. Certainly, I did 433 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,080 S2: speak to the then deputy Prime minister, now our Prime minister, 434 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,560 S2: and say that she should think about this. When did 435 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,360 S2: you first do that? On Wednesday. And so what has 436 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,720 S2: happened with this matter is that she gave it a 437 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,360 S2: great deal of serious reflection. It's a serious issue. 438 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,320 S1: There is a point to my question or to me 439 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,640 S1: bringing it up. You knew what his weaknesses were as 440 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,879 S1: a leader and a prime minister, very obviously. Do you think, actually, 441 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,919 S1: his idiosyncrasies and his talents are very well suited to 442 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,080 S1: this kind of role, which is more wonky, which is 443 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,680 S1: kind of putting people together behind the scenes and quietly working, 444 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,520 S1: you know, Congress or quietly working cabinet or whatever. 445 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,960 S2: Oh, I think he's suited to this role. Yeah. I've 446 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,160 S2: watched some of the, you know, more right wing people 447 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,720 S2: clutch their pearls and hyperventilate over Kevin, and Kevin's not 448 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,530 S2: some sort of Mar a Lago drinking buddy of the president. Therefore, 449 00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:30,610 S2: you know, he doesn't play a round of golf like 450 00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:33,250 S2: Greg Norman. Is he the right guy to have there? 451 00:22:33,250 --> 00:22:37,010 S2: But I think Kevin's proved that he's more than stood 452 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:38,929 S2: up as the ambassador to the US. 453 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:40,369 S1: Kevin's doing it Kevin's way. 454 00:22:40,930 --> 00:22:42,129 S3: Bill, he's here to help. 455 00:22:42,170 --> 00:22:46,330 S1: Exactly. He always has been. Bill, you've been an opposition leader, obviously. 456 00:22:46,369 --> 00:22:48,330 S1: Do you feel for Susan Lee at the present moment 457 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:50,970 S1: because Albanese is riding so high? I mean, he's going 458 00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:53,730 S1: to come back from this trip completely triumphant. You know, 459 00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:56,810 S1: he's polling position couldn't be better. She tried to land 460 00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:59,889 S1: a punch on the prime minister over the Rudd thing. 461 00:22:59,930 --> 00:23:02,930 S1: It really didn't work. And then she had to back 462 00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:05,810 S1: off it. If you were in opposition right now, if 463 00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:08,090 S1: you were Sussan Ley right now, what would you be 464 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:11,770 S1: focusing on, given that Albanese is in such a strong position? 465 00:23:11,810 --> 00:23:16,010 S2: Go domestic. Don't play in the foreign affairs patch. You know, 466 00:23:16,050 --> 00:23:18,890 S2: sometimes an opposition leader will feel the need to say something, 467 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:21,050 S2: to say anything. But you don't have to be out 468 00:23:21,050 --> 00:23:24,490 S2: there in the media every day and never fight on 469 00:23:24,530 --> 00:23:27,859 S2: your opponent's ground when your opponent's doing well on that ground? Yeah. 470 00:23:29,020 --> 00:23:32,139 S2: So if I was her. You just got to look 471 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:35,780 S2: like she's batting for Team Australia. Yeah. And, um, then 472 00:23:35,780 --> 00:23:37,820 S2: get back to domestic issues or an issue, which she 473 00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:42,100 S2: thinks she's on better ground. But anyway, as you always know, 474 00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:44,979 S2: being opposition leader, everyone can do your job better than you. 475 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,860 S2: And they will frequently tell you that. But don't fight 476 00:23:48,859 --> 00:23:51,980 S2: on your opponents ground when your opponents sort of kicking 477 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:53,780 S2: with the breeze and doing really well. 478 00:23:53,820 --> 00:23:56,340 S1: Okay, so what ground should she fight on then? 479 00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:57,540 S2: Oh. 480 00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:00,139 S1: Give her a few tips. Come on. 481 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:04,780 S2: Well, the first thing you've got to do is. Deal 482 00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:06,660 S2: with your own. Deal with the reasons why your own 483 00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:09,619 S2: party lost. See, if you don't do a bit of 484 00:24:09,619 --> 00:24:13,420 S2: a mea culpa and you don't deal with issues of substance, 485 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:18,179 S2: that's why. Should anyone think you've learnt anything? See if 486 00:24:18,180 --> 00:24:21,260 S2: you don't recognise that you had policies which are the 487 00:24:21,260 --> 00:24:25,180 S2: reason why you lost, then the electorate might reasonably conclude 488 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,520 S2: you haven't worked it out and you don't respect their verdict. 489 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,600 S2: And this was a pretty big verdict. So I don't know. 490 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,040 S2: They've got themselves you know, they're more lost than Burke 491 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,880 S2: and Wills on climate change. But I don't think it's 492 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,200 S2: just that I think you've got to deal with your 493 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:46,240 S2: own baggage. And like in 2013, 2014, we had three 494 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,560 S2: areas of baggage. We were not united. We had a 495 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,520 S2: problem with the boats. Um, we had a problem with 496 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,399 S2: the carbon tax. So I made clear we wouldn't be 497 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,639 S2: reintroducing a carbon tax. I talked to the party conference, 498 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,440 S2: a view which said we would turn back boats and 499 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,720 S2: we stopped talking about ourselves. So to some extent, before 500 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,440 S2: you can engage the electorate, you've got to demonstrate your 501 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,639 S2: teams united and deal with a couple of the issues. 502 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,040 S2: You know, the libs have still got this soft underbelly 503 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:24,730 S2: about workplace relations and that working from home policy was, Wow. 504 00:25:24,850 --> 00:25:26,930 S2: That was, uh, you know, that was, uh. 505 00:25:26,970 --> 00:25:27,090 S1: It. 506 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:29,169 S2: Was it was Titanic of policies. 507 00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:32,130 S1: It was as though they hadn't spoken to a working 508 00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:35,369 S1: parent anywhere around the country in sort of the last year. 509 00:25:35,369 --> 00:25:36,530 S1: It was just like they were listening. 510 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:39,930 S2: To the Restaurant and Caterers Association in the CBD. Who 511 00:25:39,930 --> 00:25:44,290 S2: wants people in for lunch and property developers who have, 512 00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:47,610 S2: you know, buildings in the city which were not as 513 00:25:47,609 --> 00:25:49,810 S2: full as they used to be, but that was a 514 00:25:49,810 --> 00:25:51,969 S2: cost of living issue for families. If you didn't need 515 00:25:51,970 --> 00:25:53,689 S2: to go into work five days a week, you were 516 00:25:53,690 --> 00:25:56,010 S2: not paying the tolls. You're not paying the petrol, you're 517 00:25:56,010 --> 00:25:58,169 S2: not paying the childcare. You know. 518 00:25:58,369 --> 00:25:58,489 S1: How. 519 00:25:58,490 --> 00:26:01,649 S3: Did you fix the because one of her biggest problems, 520 00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:04,730 S3: Susan Lee, is fixing the internal issues. And it looks 521 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:06,330 S3: with so many of these bus stops she's having with 522 00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:09,130 S3: Hasty and Price and others. Yeah, there's no communication going 523 00:26:09,130 --> 00:26:11,210 S3: on in the party. The disparate groups aren't even talking 524 00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:14,610 S3: to one another. I mean, your chief rival in 20 1314, 525 00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:16,530 S3: when large part was the now prime minister, how did 526 00:26:16,530 --> 00:26:19,290 S3: you deal with the internal problems then? How did you 527 00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:22,010 S3: soothe that all? What are the lessons? 528 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:25,540 S2: Well, one of the things I did when I was, uh, 529 00:26:25,540 --> 00:26:28,980 S2: leader is I made sure that all the different views 530 00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:31,780 S2: were sitting at the shadow cabinet table. You've got to 531 00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,979 S2: bring people in. You've also got to try and get 532 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:36,860 S2: agreement on what went wrong. You don't have to like 533 00:26:36,859 --> 00:26:38,340 S2: each other, but you've got to an agreement on what 534 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:42,300 S2: went wrong. And the borders issue had bedevilled Labour, and 535 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:44,820 S2: we really did put that issue to bed in that 536 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:46,500 S2: first term. And it wasn't easy. A lot of people 537 00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:50,020 S2: were upset. Uh, so I'm not saying if I was. 538 00:26:50,020 --> 00:26:53,420 S2: The coalition have to junk everything you believe in, but 539 00:26:53,420 --> 00:26:56,100 S2: I think they've got to deal with their here's a 540 00:26:56,340 --> 00:26:58,260 S2: they've got to pick out a couple of issues out 541 00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:00,580 S2: of the coalition too hard basket and deal with it. 542 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:06,340 S2: And again, you know, there might be coalition supporters, diehards 543 00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:08,659 S2: listening to this podcast who say, well, Bill would say 544 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:12,340 S2: what he's about to say, but I will say it anyway. Uh, 545 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:15,180 S2: they've got to do something about their women issue. And 546 00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:19,820 S2: by that I mean pre-selections like why the liberals are 547 00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:24,869 S2: turning themselves inside out over affirmative action. Like these people 548 00:27:24,910 --> 00:27:28,390 S2: are really eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 20th century. 549 00:27:28,430 --> 00:27:28,869 S2: I know. 550 00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:31,469 S1: I mean, I've written so much on that, and I 551 00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:34,550 S1: find it confounding because it's just. It's just pragmatic at 552 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:37,070 S1: this point. It's like we know it works. Yeah, it's 553 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:38,910 S1: low hanging fruit. We know it works. It'll get you 554 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:41,030 S1: where you need to go. Why wouldn't you press the button? 555 00:27:41,270 --> 00:27:43,070 S1: We have run out of time. And, Bill, we have 556 00:27:43,070 --> 00:27:45,310 S1: to release you to go back to being a fusty 557 00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:47,470 S1: academic over at the University of Canberra. 558 00:27:48,030 --> 00:27:49,150 S2: My brain is already bigger. 559 00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:50,190 S3: Are they making you, professor? 560 00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:52,629 S1: You know, smoking a pipe and kind of. Have you 561 00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:54,510 S1: got one of those jackets with the leather patches on the. 562 00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:58,149 S2: Oh, I'll tell you what's alarming. Paul has got a 563 00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:00,350 S2: jacket which would fit him right in the school of 564 00:28:00,350 --> 00:28:04,350 S2: journalism or, you know, government. Uh, we've got to make 565 00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:05,670 S2: him an adjunct professor. 566 00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:07,949 S1: You should, Professor Paul. 567 00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:09,189 S2: It's very academic. 568 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:10,190 S3: Not be valuable. 569 00:28:11,109 --> 00:28:14,590 S1: All right. We've made too many personal comments on people's appearance. 570 00:28:14,590 --> 00:28:15,910 S1: This this podcast. We've got to stop. 571 00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:17,230 S2: I've only been complimentary. 572 00:28:17,270 --> 00:28:21,959 S1: Yeah, mostly. Um, bill, it's been such a pleasure to 573 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,840 S1: have you. It was really fun. Um, we hope we 574 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,879 S1: can get you back again. And thanks for. Thanks for 575 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:26,280 S1: coming in. 576 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,280 S2: Thanks for asking my opinion. It's very flattering. 577 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,719 S1: And thanks to you, too, Paul. 578 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,800 S3: Professor Paul. Hope that. 579 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:33,680 S2: Professor Paul. All right. 580 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,000 S3: Thanks, guys. 581 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,440 S2: Cheers. 582 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,320 S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Carr Katzel, with technical 583 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,240 S1: assistance from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer 584 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,240 S1: is Tammy Mills. With special thanks to Tom McKendrick and 585 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,600 S1: Lisa Muxworthy. To listen to our episodes as soon as 586 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,480 S1: they drop, follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere 587 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,520 S1: else you listen to your podcasts. To stay up to 588 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,280 S1: date with all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The 589 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,240 S1: Age and The Sydney Morning Herald website. To support our journalism, 590 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,680 S1: subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. 591 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,280 S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.