S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell, Ed Mubarak, bro.
S1: It's the end of Ramadan. We're eating you. We are.
S1: I mean, I didn't fast, so I was eating anyway. But, uh,
S1: my Muslim brothers and sisters are now eating. We're eating culturally, too.
S1: I've always wanted to say that basically. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
S2: Do you think you'll ever will? Fast.
S1: Not again. I fasted a bit when I was younger
S1: and like, you know, was parents have a little bit
S1: more control of what you do when it comes to
S1: religious observance. Uh, but I don't think that's in my
S1: future unless it's like a shred for some sort of
S1: like event that I want to look particularly good at.
S2: I was going to say I obviously do like five two.
S2: Obviously I do five two, but it's not religious, although
S2: it is a religion to some.
S1: We just watched both of us together before we came
S1: in to record this. The brand new trailer for Joker
S1: to fully adore.
UU: Let's go boys! Thank you, baby. Ah!
S3: Hey, Flack, you got a joke for us today.
S4: We use music to make us whole. To balance the
S4: fractures within our cells.
S5: I'm nobody. I haven't done anything with my life like
S5: you have.
S1: And man, I've not seen someone's face light up like
S1: that in real life. In a long time. You were
S1: you were taken aback. That was a religious, if I
S1: can say, experience.
S2: It felt like I think it looks really good. I
S2: loved the first one. And I mean, this is the
S2: problem with, you know, this is the problem with people
S2: who like it looks so good. And yeah, it's like
S2: a bit of a wank and stuff, but I feel
S2: like I appreciate those things. And I'm like, okay, I
S2: know what you're trying to do, but I still looks
S2: really good. Got me hyped. Lady Gaga's in it. Yeah.
S2: The soundtrack. It was like, you know, really slow rendition
S2: of like, why Do Birds?
S1: Are you aware of the fact that the movie is
S1: a musical? Yes. I wish you could see Thomas's face.
S1: It's a musical. You're musical. There's like, 26 tracks in it. Yeah.
S1: What Queen, Phoenix and Lady Gaga are singing in this film?
S1: Are you serious? I'm 100% serious, dude.
S2: But I'm everything.
S1: What? So I was intrigued. I did not love the
S1: first movie. The reasons we don't have to get into.
S1: Now we can talk about it when and if we
S1: talk about the second film. But it being a sequel
S1: is interesting. Bringing in Lady Gaga is interesting. And then
S1: when they announced that it was going to be a
S1: musical made me think, okay, they're doing something, I'm interested,
S1: I'm going to reserve judgment. The trailer very stylized. I
S1: can see why it will bring a lot of people in.
S1: I kind of remain unconvinced about. And this is you're
S1: gonna make fun of me for saying this, like the
S1: politics of the Joker film and what they're trying to
S1: do and say at this current moment. But I like
S1: Lady Gaga. And if this is kind of like A
S1: Star Is Born meets the Joker, that could be interesting.
S1: But I love the fact that you had no idea
S1: it was musical.
S2: Did you know that? I didn't know it was. No,
S2: I didn't know.
S1: That's why I asked you. But I had a suspicion
S1: from from your glee that.
S2: Okay, well, that does change a lot of things. But look,
S2: I will join you in reserving judgment because I am
S2: a big whacking guy, and I think Lady Gaga has
S2: serious chops. Um, so obviously, minus that. What was that
S2: bad Italian film she did? Uh, how's it Gucci?
S1: Yeah.
S2: Yeah. No, that's bad for everybody.
S1: It's bad for everyone involved. Yeah. Um, yeah. Michael Mann,
S1: who saw, uh, Adam Driver do a terrible Italian accent
S1: and said, why don't you do that again in my
S1: movie Ferrari? Uh, but, Thomas, the other thing I wanted
S1: to mention before we get into today's episode is people
S1: wanted me to check in on you. We spent last
S1: week talking about a couple of great pieces of art
S1: Beyoncé's new album, Cowboy Carter, and the new Ripley adaptation
S1: on Netflix. And you're a bit, a little bit down
S1: on both of them. A couple of people got in
S1: touch and said, is he okay? Is everything going all
S1: right with that guy Thomas? He was a little bit
S1: flat on these two. Big, interesting, you know, big swings
S1: at culture happening. So he's like.
S2: An on air welfare.
S1: Check. Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. Look I actually had a few people getting in
S2: touch with me and saying like, thanks for standing up, bro.
S2: Thanks for saying what others wouldn't. Uh, no. Look, I
S2: feel good. I actually listen back to the podcast and
S2: I stand by you, even, in fact, sent me the
S2: New York Times podcast, who had a similar discourse driven
S2: discussion to us. Uh, so, I mean, aside from the
S2: fact that, once again, the drop has its collective finger
S2: on the pulse. Yeah.
S1: Well, days before the New York Times podcast on this one. Yeah.
S2: So, yeah. Look, I am good. I stand by everything
S2: I said, obviously, uh, unless anything I said proves wrong,
S2: in which case it was a mistake. But yes, I'm
S2: excited to get into things this week.
S1: Uh, and we actually will revisit Ripley because I've now
S1: seen the entire show, and I think there's a bit
S1: more to discuss there. But this week, in terms of
S1: the world of television, one of the greatest shows ever
S1: put to air wrapped up talking about Curb Your Enthusiasm.
S1: The HBO series written by Larry David. It's basically a
S1: fictionalized version of his actual life. This show has been
S1: on the air for 12 seasons, spread out over 25 years.
S1: Thomas Juneau, who was the president of the United States
S1: when Curb Your Enthusiasm first went to air.
S2: I don't know if you've heard of a little thing
S2: called Reaganomics. Hahahahahahaha. Uh, no, it was Bill Clinton. That's crazy.
S1: Isn't that insane?
S2: It is crazy, given how much like the world has changed.
S2: And you know, it's funny to put it in those terms,
S2: like how many different cycles we've been through now.
S1: So we had Bill Clinton, George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump,
S1: Joe Biden, potentially Donald Trump again, all of that has
S1: happened while Larry David has just been getting up to
S1: ridiculous adventures in LA.
S2: And it's I think it is crazy when you think
S2: about like, curb finishing now and the fact that Seinfeld,
S2: the finale, which we also talk about, finished in 1998.
S2: So this guy has been making he's gone back to
S2: back with two of the greatest like 30 years.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Like it's it's an insane feat. And I think, you know,
S2: obviously there's been lots of, uh, breaks in the curb
S2: kind of run, but still, it's an incredible, uh, achievement
S2: that it won't probably be matched. I'm very, very sad
S2: that Larry David has called time officially. I reckon this.
S1: Time. Yeah. Okay, interesting. Let's get to that, too. I mean,
S1: this this is a really fun finale to get into
S1: just on its own terms. But we also thought it
S1: was a good opportunity to discuss, I guess, the idea
S1: of TV finales more generally when they have worked, when
S1: they haven't, what kind of legacy they leave for a
S1: show as well. And there's a lot of great iconic, good,
S1: bad and kind of divisive finales to talk about. But first,
S1: let's chat about curb. There was there was some talk
S1: this season that Larry was going to explicitly reference the
S1: infamous and very divisive Seinfeld finale, which he actually wrote
S1: as well. There are a couple of conversations Larry was
S1: having throughout this season of curb, where people brought up. Oh, yeah,
S1: you worked on Sanford, right? You might have known that person.
S1: And Larry was like, no, no, no, I actually stopped
S1: after like season seven or whatever. And they're like, oh,
S1: but you came back for the finale, and Larry's like, yeah,
S1: I did. Why are you bringing that up? And in fact,
S1: in this final episode, Leon starts watching Seinfeld for the
S1: first time, which is so good. And there was some
S1: interview where I think Jeff Schaffer, um, one of the
S1: executive producers and writers, was like, yeah, just kind of
S1: occurred to us that probably Leon has never watched Seinfeld,
S1: so let's get him to watch it. He's binging it,
S1: he's getting closer to the end. And he was like,
S1: I love the show, Larry. But like, I'm getting close
S1: to the finale. Everyone tells me you fucked it up,
S1: so I can't wait to say it before we get
S1: to the actual, like, conversation around the curb finale, which
S1: is riffing off and paying homage to and then twisting
S1: the Seinfeld finale, can you remind us of that and
S1: why it was so controversial?
S2: Yeah, well, so the Seinfeld finale aired in May 1998. Uh,
S2: at the time, Stanford was already kind of considered in
S2: the pantheon of great TV shows. And as you said,
S2: Larry David had left, I think, after season six, um,
S2: for a couple of seasons. And he came back to
S2: write the finale. And, I mean, look, it was always,
S2: I think, behind the eight ball from the get go,
S2: given the show was about nothing. And so to wrap
S2: up a show like that is a tricky thing to do.
S2: And obviously, as it turned out, perhaps he fumbled it
S2: a little bit. Essentially what it did was we found
S2: the four main actors Jerry, George, Elaine and Kramer, who
S2: were on trial for violating a Good Samaritan law because
S2: they'd failed to help a person in need, which is
S2: a very like Seinfeld type setup in the finale. Basically,
S2: they're all on trial, um, being represented by Johnnie Cochran.
S2: And we basically see this, like, revolving door of cameos
S2: from people who the four characters have, like, wronged in
S2: the past. You get the soup Nazi Babu, uh, Mabel
S2: with the marble rye. And so all of these people
S2: come back and they, you know, it's like a character
S2: assassination on these guys essentially ends with them being convicted
S2: by Judge Van Delay. And, um, while they're kind of
S2: sitting in there, you know, waiting to be sentenced, they
S2: start having a conversation about, you know, the placement of
S2: George's buttons, which is from the very first episode of Seinfeld.
S6: The second button is the key button. It literally makes
S6: or breaks the shirt. Look at it. It's too high.
S6: It's a no man's land.
S7: How about we had this conversation before.
S6: You think.
S2: And that's basically where the show ends. Um, and so yeah,
S2: that was this kind of like really divisive finale. People
S2: thought they shouldn't have bothered moralizing these characters who, you know,
S2: famously don't care about anything. Yeah. And yeah, it's kind
S2: of been that watercooler conversation forever. Like, did the Seinfeld
S2: finale live up to the show's hype or is it,
S2: you know, perhaps the biggest flop?
S1: And I think a lot of people were upset at
S1: the time because they'd been building this finale up in
S1: their heads, and a lot of it was like a
S1: clip show, like highlights from the last few, which I
S1: guess probably was more important back then because that was
S1: an era before, like the ubiquity of the internet and YouTube.
S1: You couldn't just watch your favorite clips from Seinfeld. I
S1: don't know why all the people got so mad about that. Like,
S1: that's great, let's get the Babu getting deported, you know,
S1: sequence happening again.
S8: You had my visa application.
S9: Well, not technically, I see you. Well, what about.
S10: Can. Both of you. No, Babu. No Babu. You bad man.
S10: You very bad man. You very bad.
S1: Man. I'm going to fix everything. Basically with curb, we
S1: kind of got something very similar with a few tweaks
S1: like the arc of this season. Was Larry facing jail
S1: time because he this time was a good Samaritan. He
S1: gave some water to anti-Black, who she was in a
S1: line trying to vote in a Georgia election. And there
S1: is laws in Georgia that say that you can't do that.
S1: The voter suppression laws, uh, Larry broke that accidentally and
S1: became this kind of cool celeb. The, uh, the finale
S1: sees Larry and his friends head back to Atlanta for
S1: the trial. Uh, and it's a roll call, basically, of
S1: all of Larry's rivals throughout the years. Mocha Joe pops up.
S1: Oh my God.
S4: It's not Joe Bella, that's Mocha Joe.
S11: Mr. Boca Belle I understand at one point you were
S11: in the coffee business. Yes, I was, it was called
S11: Mocha Joe's. Maybe you heard of it. Never have a
S11: problem with anybody. Not really. Normal. Stop. Until one day
S11: Larry David came in. Could you tell us?
S1: You get this sense that Larry is actually a terrible
S1: person who does terrible things? Very reminiscent of the Seinfeld finale. Uh,
S1: and I guess spoilers if you have not seen the
S1: code finale yet. This time again, Larry gets convicted. But
S1: while he's in prison, just awaiting, I guess, getting sent
S1: to the the facility where he'll spend a year in prison.
S1: Jerry Seinfeld rocks up and says, actually, it turns out
S1: you're out because one of the jurors who was supposed
S1: to be sequestered. I ran into him in, like, a restaurant,
S1: Mexican restaurant, that sequester, sequester. And then they walk out
S1: of prison. And I think Larry turns to Jerry and says,
S1: you know what? This is how we should have done
S1: the the Sanford finale. And the way that the Cove
S1: finale really ends is with Larry on a plane with
S1: Jeff and Susie and Leon and Richard and Cheryl, his
S1: ex-wife and Ted, and they're just bickering. And I think
S1: curb is actually, uh, one of the interviews I read
S1: is that actually filmed that sort of scene to end
S1: a couple of seasons in the past, but there was
S1: just too many things going on, so they cut it out.
S1: So the ending feels way more true to the show
S1: than a sort of statement on what's happening with Larry.
S1: How did you feel about this final episode, maybe the
S1: final season of curb?
S2: Yeah, I think he really like Nailed It. And it's
S2: funny because. There's lots of like, discussion now about whether
S2: or not was he really trying to directly address people's
S2: issue with the Seinfeld finale. And I just feel like,
S2: you know, that's putting too much like consideration, I think,
S2: on Larry David, I don't think he even cares. If
S2: you liked the Seinfeld finale, I think he was just like,
S2: this is a really funny troll. Almost. Yeah. So just
S2: redo Seinfeld, tweak it slightly, and and like, that's it.
S2: My the two two of the biggest TV finales of
S2: all time. I wrote them both and they're both exactly
S2: the same thing.
S1: Yeah, it's kind of like such a great Larry David.
S1: Like I'm pretty. I don't know how to end this.
S1: I'll just do what I did last time. I don't
S1: give a fuck if you like, I don't know.
S2: Yeah. And they're like, yeah, there's a small tweak with Jerry,
S2: but even bringing Jerry back, it was just. Yeah. And
S2: I think, look, I would say the Venn diagram crossover
S2: of people who love Seinfeld and people who love curb
S2: is like the 98th percentile. And so there were just
S2: so many Seinfeld hat tips in this episode that, you know,
S2: the airplane scene, Jerry coming back, even the conversation between
S2: hey and Jerry about the bearded.
S6: Lady get together. You go to.
S12: The bearded lady's apartment. It's a normal apartment.
S6: Nothing freakish.
S12: No, nothing freakish at all. You wouldn't know you were
S12: in a freak's apartment. No. Okay, now you see this picture?
S12: This gorgeous woman? Yeah. And your friend says to you,
S12: that's the bearded lady. She has no beard.
S6: Clean shaven, bearded lady.
S12: She's quitting the circus. She's got a big crush on you. Really?
S12: She'd love. Yeah.
S2: It was so, like, just like, straight from Seinfeld.
S1: And I think there's also a callback to the pilot
S1: where Larry's got his corduroy pants on. Yeah, and he's
S1: got the pants tent, and that's like George with the buttons. Yeah, yeah.
S2: So it just felt like it was tailor made for people. And. Yeah,
S2: I thought they did a really good job. And it
S2: really is a hard thing to do. And I think
S2: probably we don't realize yet, but there will be a
S2: big curb shaped hole in all of our lives. Yeah, I.
S1: Enjoyed the season a lot. I think the show is
S1: not quite what it used to be. I think it
S1: used to be so much more layered and complex, like
S1: you'd have these multiple plots that would all come together,
S1: and it's really sharp way. I feel like the last
S1: couple of seasons, it's been a bit more hit and miss,
S1: like there's been a little bit of that, but there's
S1: also just been a real joy in Larry, like just
S1: kicking around the house with Leon, like talking absolute shit. Like,
S1: I think it was either this season of the last
S1: season where there was this like two episode ongoing bit
S1: about Larry's distaste for Little Women, and I'm not going
S1: to say it out loud, but what Leon thinks he's
S1: talking about when he's talking about the Book of Little
S1: Women is just extraordinary, has a little bit more of
S1: the kind of non-sequiturs, I think, than than they used
S1: to be. And then sort of the, the layered, complicated
S1: plots of sort of disappeared. But I'm starting to realize that, like,
S1: not that I watched this show from the age of nine,
S1: like when I first came out, but for a long,
S1: you know, like the last ten years of my life
S1: at least, this has just been a thing. This has
S1: just been like, this is culture. Like every year or
S1: every couple of years, there'll be a new curb season.
S1: You watch it, you talk about it. And I'm getting
S1: pretty sad realizing that that kind of cast of characters,
S1: that world is not going to be part of my
S1: life anymore.
S2: Yeah, I do, I would say at least it's a
S2: very good like revisit show. You can easily start at
S2: the start after just finishing it and like it just
S2: washes over you. But yeah, I think it is sad.
S2: It's funny. Like we I think in the last few
S2: years especially, we're kind of getting more and more into
S2: like high concept TV and you know, like succession mania
S2: and all of that stuff. And that's really like what
S2: galvanizes people and gets people going and, and drives like
S2: these big conversations that we have. And so perhaps it's
S2: harder now for shows like curb to exist and really
S2: thrive because it doesn't feel like enough. But they do
S2: have such a special place. And this is the same
S2: thing with Seinfeld, especially when you talk to young people
S2: about Seinfeld. They don't seem like I say young people,
S2: but like if you're, you know, in your 20s now,
S2: like in your early 20s and you go and watch Seinfeld,
S2: it doesn't seem to like land in the same way.
S2: And I just think that culture around these shows that
S2: don't really have anything that big to say has changed
S2: so much, because we do feel that we need to
S2: be talking about these big, important, high concept shows. And
S2: and yeah, I think the beauty of curb as well
S2: has always been it's like, you know, Larry is this
S2: kind of audience surrogate who is constantly, like running afoul of, like,
S2: you know, accepted etiquette and stuff. And it's very funny
S2: to watch him, like fumbling his way through life and maybe,
S2: like increasingly did get a bit looser and a bit
S2: more ridiculous. And and maybe it didn't land as much
S2: in the later seasons, but I. Yeah, I'm gonna miss it.
S1: Me too. And I think, like, just hearing you talk
S1: about it as well, thinking about like, what are the
S1: bits of curb that made it so different? I think one,
S1: you and I talked about this a lot on the
S1: show before. How many shows are there that have been
S1: around for that long, that have had such a big
S1: cast that we've fallen in love with and appreciated, like
S1: that era of long running sitcoms like this doesn't exist.
S1: I know that like Grey's Anatomy is entering its 75th
S1: season or whatever, and I know that there are Grey's
S1: heads and like the law and order heads who love that.
S1: But in like sitcom land for something that is this funny,
S1: in this shop, you just don't have stuff like that anymore.
S1: You kind of fall in love with it, and there's
S1: a couple of shows that do it, but then they
S1: wrap up after 2 or 3 seasons. So this is
S1: very unique in that it has been with us for
S1: so long. And then the observational humor and Larry taking
S1: things to the extreme and poking fun of himself, poking
S1: fun of. Woke culture from both perspectives. But I always
S1: got this sense that Larry was on the right side,
S1: which is a really fine line to walk like. You
S1: see these older comedians who are decrying the state of
S1: the world and they're like, you can't say anything anymore.
S1: And Larry does that a little bit, but you know,
S1: from genuinely who the targets are and what he says
S1: outside of the show, he's not like some curmudgeonly old
S1: conservative who doesn't like the way the world's going.
S2: No, he's not like a Ricky Gervais.
S1: Yeah, exactly.
S2: John Cleese or anything like that. I think he's almost
S2: like needling those guys a little bit. And that's the thing. Like,
S2: he does just have such a talent for being able
S2: to force the audience to really, like, put themselves in
S2: his position and be like, if I was, you know,
S2: like a Jewish guy who wanted to eat this delicious
S2: Palestinian chicken, like, what would I do? And I just think,
S2: you know, we don't get that much TV that makes
S2: us really think like that anymore.
S1: Yeah. One of the ongoing topics since 2017, I guess,
S1: was Larry engaging with me too. I did you.
S13: Pig.
S14: Oh, no, Nancy, that is not Harvey Weinstein. I'm so sorry, Jeff.
S1: Which is so dicey. Right? Like, this is an old
S1: white guy who's been in media and television for a
S1: long time, who's been associated with Jerry Seinfeld for a
S1: long time. And, I mean, they made a couple of
S1: jokes about in the finale, but some of the stuff
S1: with Jerry and his, like, younger years with like, certain
S1: girlfriends is not great. And Larry manages to both, I guess,
S1: find the comedy in some of the more extreme ways that,
S1: like me too, is manifested, particularly in Hollywood, but always
S1: make you feel like it's not like he's saying, this
S1: is bad. It's not like he's saying that like women
S1: shouldn't be speaking up. That is such a smart and
S1: sophisticated and fine line to draw. I don't know, maybe,
S1: maybe if Mel was here, she'd say, you guys suck.
S1: That's like the word no, I'm not trying to pigeonhole
S1: Mel as, like, being, like, the boring one or whatever, but, um. Yeah,
S1: I just think it's so hard and it's so rare.
S1: And maybe a lot of younger generation of comedians, they
S1: don't want to tackle that. Right? Like it's risky. It
S1: genuinely it's like really risky to try to take aim
S1: at these kinds of moments, these movements, and be able
S1: to pull it off. And even if you do, you
S1: aren't necessarily rewarded for it. And and there are more
S1: risks than there are benefits. So you kind of need
S1: someone like Larry who's like, I've made my stack. I'm fine.
S1: You can't do anything to me. I'm 76 years old
S1: to be able to take that kind of a risk.
S1: And yeah, I'm not sure who the next one of
S1: him is.
S2: Yeah, I know, and I don't know if there will
S2: be another. You know, as we said, he's been doing
S2: this since, you know, the early 90s with Seinfeld. And
S2: so the fact that that is over now is so strange. And, yeah,
S2: I really think the finale and this is another thing
S2: I think is interesting. You know, we spoke about Beyonce
S2: last week. Everyone's quite divided, but most people like it.
S2: But you know, this has no.
S1: Matter critics scores like 95 I think I think a
S1: lot of people like it. There's an important 5% there.
S2: But this has been a pretty well received finale, which
S2: is like incredibly rare, I would say. I mean, succession
S2: people loved as well universally. But yeah, I haven't read
S2: a bad thing about the finale. So yeah.
S1: Let's let's talk about finales generally because I think, I
S1: think this one, and it's why I also like the
S1: Seinfeld finale. Both of them did a thing that is
S1: pretty rare again, for comedies, where they kept the tone
S1: of the show. You say this with shows like Friends
S1: and The Office, where they're funny shows, the situation comedies,
S1: but they get a bit maudlin, a little bit somber,
S1: everyone's crying and that like, people like that, you're saying
S1: farewell to characters you've watched for ten years or whatever,
S1: but it's really hot. Like, I don't think a Seinfeld
S1: finale would have felt good if it was like Elaine
S1: crying about the fact that she's not going to hang
S1: out with Jerry again. Well, I can imagine, like in
S1: one of the most curb things ever, they released this
S1: behind the scenes clip of when they wrapped the final
S1: scene on the plane on curb. Jeff Schaffer, who's the EP, says,
S1: you have to wrap on the funny show of all time.
S1: All right.
S15: That's a wrap on the funniest show ever.
S16: Larry David treated me like like a god. And all
S16: of you had. And this is the greatest experience of
S16: my career, and I love each and every one of you.
S16: I'm honored.
S1: And Richard Lewis, like, gives a speech. And it's obviously
S1: very sad because he's passed away now and he's just
S1: thanking Larry for treating him like a god. Cheryl. Larry's wife,
S1: she's crying as as they've cut and the cameras turned
S1: to Larry and everyone's expecting him to give a speech,
S1: and he just kind of shrugs in, wanders off, and
S1: I'm like, that's the tone of Larry. That's the tone
S1: of the show. It wouldn't have been right if they
S1: actually showed everyone crying on the plane. But I mean,
S1: that brings up this question of like, how do you
S1: land a finale and how do you perhaps go wrong
S1: with it? And sometimes, man, these things break people's brains.
S1: Finales are a really, really interesting topic because some people
S1: think that a great finale means that the show is good.
S1: Some people think that a bad finale has destroyed the
S1: entire legacy of the show. And there are some finales.
S1: I think the The Sopranos one is a great example
S1: where there's like a split down the middle of whether
S1: people think it's good or bad. And, and I guess
S1: I find the finale when it comes to television conversation
S1: a bit funny, because I've got my own thoughts about
S1: what makes a good and bad finale, but I don't
S1: generally see it as being that linked to the quality
S1: of the overall show. But when you think about the
S1: medium of TV generally like Multi-season years long television stuff
S1: supposed to like a linear series, the whole point of
S1: these shows is that there's not a narrative. It's not
S1: like there's a start point and an end point. The
S1: point is you create a vibe, you create an environment,
S1: you create a cast of characters. You all hang out together.
S1: There isn't, by definition, like a definitive end. So whether
S1: it ends well or bad is kind of irrelevant to
S1: me in a lot of ways, because that's not what
S1: the show's been trying to do. And if I do
S1: show rewatches, I often won't make it all the way
S1: to the end because you can see them starting to
S1: wrap things up. And that's not what I'm watching the
S1: show for. But I mean, how do you feel about, like,
S1: do you put a lot of weight in stock, and
S1: do you think finales can make or break a show?
S2: I think they I mean, I think it's been showing
S2: that they can kind of make or break. Yeah, I
S2: do put a lot of stock in it because I
S2: think it's just really hard. It's human nature. You're watching
S2: a story. A story has a beginning, middle and an end.
S2: And so especially, you know, we get so much hype
S2: now around like even with curb, it was like it's
S2: the last season. So from the minute you start episode
S2: one you're like watching within the prism of like, how
S2: will this show end? Yeah, it was actually kind of
S2: interesting with curb because like Larry does so often be like,
S2: this is the final season. Oh, actually it's not. So
S2: you didn't really know. But yeah, I mean, I do
S2: think a good finale can change, you know, the way
S2: I feel about a show. I was incredibly nervous, as
S2: you remember about the succession finale. Yeah. Uh, and that
S2: was a show I thought, look, probably in retrospect, it
S2: wasn't going to change its legacy had the finale not been, like,
S2: so great, but it was so like, note perfect. I
S2: think that succession, which was already on this incredible path,
S2: everyone was so hyped about it, everyone was loving it.
S2: And then the finale just sat so perfectly atop that
S2: entire mountain that it just solidified it as one of
S2: the great TV shows. And I know that, you know,
S2: I don't watch this show and don't care for it,
S2: but from what I've learned in my research, which I
S2: do a lot of, is that the, for instance, Game
S2: of Thrones, which was universally considered one of the greatest
S2: shows of our time. Yeah, I really felt like whatever
S2: they did in that finale, fuck knows. I tried to
S2: understand on the internet, like whatever happened in that finale
S2: genuinely seems to have tarnished what people think of the show.
S1: Yeah, those are both really great examples, I guess kind
S1: of counterpoints to what I was saying. Like, I think
S1: succession is in its own fascinating little category, where it
S1: was like a show, like it was committed at these moments,
S1: and there was a big cast and you could have
S1: we said this at the time, you could have just
S1: hung out with these guys for another five seasons. But
S1: it was also trying to tell a discreet story about
S1: this family, this company, this point in America. What happens
S1: when the patriarch. So it found a way to unite
S1: those two things that I think so few TV shows
S1: managed to do. Game of Thrones is, I think, one
S1: of the most clearest recent examples of a show that
S1: just destroyed its entire cultural legacy by a bad finale.
S1: That show I know that you didn't watch, but it
S1: had this grip on the culture, right? It was the
S1: most pirated show when it first came out. It was
S1: the most watched show when it became easy to stream,
S1: people had watch parties like, I went to people's House,
S1: you know, every time, once a week to to watch
S1: Game of Thrones. You read recaps, you listen to podcasts,
S1: you debate. This was freaking everywhere. Then the last season
S1: comes along.
S2: So was because from what I can gather, the last
S2: season itself was a bit of a cluster.
S1: Fuck yeah. I think looking back, I think what generally
S1: people accept is Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners, really, really
S1: good at adapting George R.R. Martin's material, did a great
S1: job with a very complicated and dense story when George
S1: hadn't finished writing The End, and I guess it kind
S1: of sketched out the plan and those guys had to
S1: just do it. They fumbled it a little bit. I
S1: also think there's a sense that they've been working on
S1: that show for a very long time. They had other
S1: projects lined up and they're just like, let's get out
S1: of here. So things that normally would have taken 2
S1: to 3 seasons to happen in the earlier part of
S1: Game of Thrones happened in like half an episode. It's
S1: plots just like resolve very quickly. Character development happens. It's
S1: so fast, without any acknowledgement. Characters that we were rooting
S1: for had fascistic twists that made no sense. And then ultimately,
S1: the guy who ends up on the Iron Throne is someone.
S1: People are just like, what the hell's happened to you?
S1: And I think maybe it's because that show was so
S1: good and people were so invested, it felt like a betrayal.
S1: You've kept me on tenterhooks for 7 or 8 years
S1: to find out what's going on. And then you, the creators,
S1: have treated me with disrespect. So I no longer want
S1: to talk about this show at all anymore. It's kind
S1: of like the JK Rowling Harry Potter thing for a
S1: lot of fans. Like, I love this stuff. I don't really,
S1: you know, fuck with J.K. Rowling anymore. So I never
S1: want to talk about Harry Potter, but it's actually a
S1: really good example of how badly telling your ending can
S1: ameliorate everything that came before.
S2: Yeah. It's interesting. Like, it definitely seems to have ruined
S2: that show for lots of people. I do feel like again,
S2: this is probably recency bias, but I do feel like
S2: the conversation around finales really did begin because you kind
S2: of said it before. It's very different when it's like
S2: a show, like a Seinfeld, even if you're disappointed a
S2: bit like I feel like the conversation around finales did
S2: begin with The Sopranos because it was, you know, talk
S2: about having a grip on the culture. Like, this is
S2: obviously before the age of streaming and the internet had,
S2: like completely ruined us all. But, you know, it was this,
S2: like huge HBO drama. It was the start of prestige
S2: TV for a lot of people. And, you know, this
S2: was appointment viewing in its first instance. And then obviously
S2: it remains, I think, probably the most. Even if you
S2: haven't watched The Sopranos, I guarantee you you can tell
S2: me what happens in the final scene. Yeah. Spoiler alert
S2: if you haven't, you're about 25 years too late. But obviously,
S2: you know, all we see is meadow trying to park
S2: a car three times. She walks into a diner, Tony
S2: looks up and the show cuts to black and I,
S2: you know, have had this debate so many times. I've
S2: spoken to Michael Imperioli, who obviously plays Christopher, about his
S2: thoughts on the finale, and even he admitted that I
S2: think he thought his cable was broken at the time.
S2: You know, this is which is, of course, such a
S2: 90s thing to say. But, you know, this is like that,
S2: I guess, redefined how, you know, David Chase is a genius,
S2: but redefined how a TV show should be ending. I
S2: personally think it's a great ending.
S1: I think so too. I think the fact that it's
S1: ambiguous is so smart, and you could either read it
S1: as like, well, this was us spending six years in
S1: the life of Tony Soprano, and we've just cut away
S1: from it. That's it. What happens next, happens next. Or
S1: which I think, you know, there's a credible theory and
S1: it's probably the one that I subscribe to that there
S1: was a hitman coming in the jacket. Yeah, exactly. And
S1: and I think there's a reference earlier in that season,
S1: one of the characters is talking to Tony about, you know,
S1: one I think like when it happens, you don't hear it,
S1: you don't feel it just happens like that's death. And
S1: for a show that was about death from the very,
S1: very start. And Tony's fear of losing control and death
S1: has haunted him and he's been responsible for it. It
S1: makes sense to me that his character just dies. You
S1: know that there's nothing left for him. That makes more
S1: sense to me in terms of what the show is
S1: trying to say than him sort of living this happy
S1: family life. But either way, none of that changes whether
S1: the rest of the show was great or bad. And
S1: either option sets up a world in the future of
S1: the Sopranos universe that is still very interesting and true
S1: to it. So it's really interesting. It's ambiguous, but either
S1: option is fine, and I think one makes more sense.
S1: But I also concede the merits for the other one.
S1: I love the idea of ending to show that I
S1: know some people think it's a cop out, but I mean, like,
S1: what's the counterfactual there that you see Tony bleeding or
S1: you just see Tony have a nice dinner and they
S1: fade to black. Like, that's not compelling.
S2: But that's what I always wonder about people who get
S2: so obsessed with this. Like what? But what happened? Like,
S2: you know, I'm sure David Chase has spent the rest
S2: of his years asking being asked, Is Tony alive? But
S2: like the people who really want those endings, like had
S2: had the guy in the members only jacket walked in
S2: and shot Tony in the head, like, would that have
S2: satisfied them? Like, I just, I still don't really understand. Like,
S2: you know, you look at all these kind of especially
S2: these like prestige TV shows and try and figure out
S2: like maybe what they've got in common. And you kind
S2: of touched on it before, I think it's really about
S2: staying true to like the soul of the show, even
S2: if it's so tempting when you are, you know, like
S2: wrapping up something or bringing any project to an end,
S2: you know, you naturally feel like you need to tick
S2: off certain things. But another one I think is great
S2: is the Mad Men finale.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that.
S2: That I feel like was another show where people were
S2: very invested in, like it had built this entire world
S2: with all these characters that you really cared about. And
S2: it was like, how is this going to end? And again,
S2: spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it, but we had,
S2: you know, Don Draper, played by Jon Hamm, who had
S2: kind of gone on this like mythical, you know, like eat, pray,
S2: love journey.
S1: Totally like meditating at the end.
S2: Yeah. Like he's not the ad man he once was.
S2: And then like, it ends with his, like, basically idea
S2: for a new Coca Cola ad like that really famous,
S2: you know, ad from the 70s.
S1: They're all singing in a hill somewhere.
S2: Yeah. And it's like, you know, that is Don Draper.
S2: He's a fucking ad man. Like, I can't help it.
S1: Like he's found a way to use the hippy dippy,
S1: meditative idea of bringing the world together to sell Coca Cola. Exactly.
S2: Which is. But it's, like, perfect for, you know, the
S2: world that he exists in. And I think, you know,
S2: but one of my favorite ones, I would say of
S2: all time is Breaking Bad, and that I remember having
S2: like a Breaking Bad finale party and again, like, you
S2: had built this world where it. You know, everything hinge
S2: on what was going to happen in the finale, and
S2: they did it perfectly. Everything that happened with Walter White
S2: and Jesse was really true to the characters. So I think,
S2: you know, the temptation to offer closure or anything that's
S2: it's always there. But really, if you just stay true
S2: to the world you've built.
S1: There's a couple of other good and bad ones I
S1: want to talk to you about, but I just when
S1: you mentioned Breaking Bad, it made me think like, what's
S1: interesting about Breaking Bad, The Sopranos as well as Game
S1: of Thrones. And like, I guess there's this question about
S1: whether curb is actually done or not. It's finales don't
S1: necessarily mean the end anymore. Like Breaking Bad and The
S1: Sopranos have had prequel series. We've had the Game of
S1: Thrones prequel series, House of the Dragon. I think there's
S1: more in development. It's interesting to me whether you think
S1: the white of the finale, like maybe part of the
S1: reason why The Sopranos finale also felt so emotionally resonant
S1: was because this is before the era of turning everything
S1: into IP. And so it was like, well, this is
S1: the end. This is the end of the Sopranos universe.
S1: And then 15 years later, it's like, guess what? I'm
S1: showing you what it was like in the 70s. And
S1: now when a show ends, the immediate question is, well,
S1: what's the spinoff going to be? So a finale wraps
S1: up a bit of the story, but not the whole thing.
S1: Do you think that's shifted the way we think about
S1: the definitive end of shows? Yeah, I think so.
S2: Because there is this kind of safety net like even
S2: with succession, you know, which I know we always go
S2: back to. But like there was so much chat about like, oh, well,
S2: Jesse Armstrong, do something else. Will there be like a
S2: Greg and Tom spinoff? Which is so crazy to think
S2: we were.
S1: We were high on some bullshit back then. We will.
S2: We have been conditioned now to be like, oh well,
S2: we love this show. And you know, especially, you know,
S2: the studios and stuff. Love this IP. And you know,
S2: they've got onto a winner here. So surely they were.
S2: And if they could.
S1: Have convinced Jesse I'm trying to do it, they would
S1: have 100%.
S2: Like or if he if he had come back and
S2: done like a you know, fast forward five years, a
S2: one off succession film. I mean, it may still happen.
S2: I would be shocked. But yeah, I definitely think that
S2: has changed because we do have this safety net now
S2: where it's like, oh, well, it's really sad to say goodbye,
S2: but you know, we know that there could be something coming.
S2: Whereas for instance, you know, not a great finale, but friends. Yeah.
S2: Very sad. That was just like completely, you know, they
S2: leant so hard into the sincerity. Everyone ended up sobbing. Everyone, every.
S1: Shot look like them just crying nonstop. Yeah.
S2: Like they all like put the keys on the end.
S2: Like it was all very sad. But I think people
S2: really knew that was the end. You know, it was
S2: a huge show that had turned these six kind of unknowns. Yeah.
S1: But then they made Joey.
S2: They did make Joey.
S1: Everyone forgets about Joey with Memory Hole.
S2: Joey I mean, that's why for the best.
S1: Yeah, definitely. Uh, one I guess that's sort of in
S1: the same vein as friends, but I think did that better.
S1: Is The Office. I think the office finale, like The Office,
S1: was always pretty funny, but had this heart to it.
S1: Which office are we talking? I'm talking about the American office. Okay. Um,
S1: and then, you know, they brought back Steve Carell, and
S1: that was like some teary moments, but it was also
S1: just a genuinely very funny episode. And I think that
S1: is another good example of it staying true to the
S1: show that it had always been, because as a version
S1: of that show where it's just 75 minutes of everyone crying,
S1: I'm glad that I didn't do that. I never finished.
S1: I mean, I actually never have seen the British office.
S2: Oh my God, yeah, okay. You yelled at me for
S2: not having seen fucking It's a Wonderful Life, whatever it's called.
S1: Yeah, I know that Ricky Gervais wasn't as weird then
S1: as he is now, but I just, like, Guy annoys
S1: me so much.
S2: The show is very funny. You know the one? Probably
S2: one of the weirdest finales he's had in recent times. Neighbours.
S2: How angry is Kylie Minogue about coming back for that finale?
S2: Only for then Freeview and Amazon to step in and
S2: be like, we were just joking. Six months later, did.
S1: You see this story from this week that, like, Harold
S1: is coming back to neighbours? Yeah.
S2: Isn't he dead?
S1: I'm not clear. Like, it's so funny that ten years
S1: ago that would have been like, stop the presses. Like
S1: Harold Bishop is coming back to neighbours. But just that show.
S1: Just let it let it die.
S2: And this, I think, is also like a part of
S2: a wider, you know, external from neighbours problem. People do
S2: feel a little bit cheated now because we do still
S2: get emotionally invested in these finales and we, you know,
S2: the way they market them and everything, you know, it
S2: becomes such a big thing I can say in six
S2: months if we do like get a surprise curb, even
S2: though I feel like I would be excited, I think
S2: I'd be a bit like, okay, I feel cheated now,
S2: like you, you actively got me invested in saying goodbye
S2: to these characters. I enjoyed the finale. I wrote and
S2: thought and talked about it, and now, like we're just
S2: doing it all over again. So I think it's a
S2: tricky thing, you know, like buying into this, extending the
S2: show all the time and keeping the world going.
S1: Yeah, there's something to be said about the like, real clear.
S1: And like, there's a couple I wanted to mention more
S1: recently that I think have done that really well. One
S1: is Derry Girls, the Netflix show. Um, I loved how
S1: that ended. I think, again, it was like a nice
S1: ending in terms of where each of the characters was
S1: at sort of emotionally and where they're at in their lives. But,
S1: you know, the ongoing theme of that show was the
S1: Troubles in Northern Ireland and the violence that was afflicting
S1: all of these people as they grow up. And so
S1: showing them, like vote on on the Good Friday Agreement was,
S1: was really powerful, really interesting. You kind of got the
S1: ending of like the politics as well as where the
S1: characters were at and you're like, okay, that's it, that
S1: show's done. I don't need to like, you know, find
S1: out what happened to them in the future. And the
S1: other one is Fleabag. Like, I thought that had a
S1: nice ending, like had an ending that was really true
S1: to what that idea of. It'll pass from Andrew Scott,
S1: hot priest. Like, just go. Beautiful.
S2: Is it the end at the bus stop? And she's like,
S2: I love you. And he's like, it'll pass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
S1: One of the best, like romantic, but in a brutally
S1: honest way that I can remember in a TV.
S2: Show in a while. It's like, this is what happens
S2: in life. Really? Yeah, exactly. And then on the other
S2: end of the scale, and this is what I find
S2: so funny because I actually recently rewatched. My wife was
S2: watching it and I just walked into the room. But
S2: the sex and the city finale and I talk about,
S2: I mean, there's a lot of the running theme here
S2: with HBO, but talk about a finale. That was another
S2: really big cultural moment. Like people were fucking hyped. And
S2: obviously that show has done a lot to kind of
S2: tarnish its own legacy in releasing like three pretty bad films.
S2: And then obviously having And Just Like That, the new
S2: series minus Samantha. But again, sex and the city and
S2: I know you have your own thoughts about it, but
S2: it was a groundbreaking series in a lot of ways
S2: for a lot of people. But the series ended up
S2: like basically in like the finale captures how much at
S2: war it was with itself. Like the second last scene
S2: is Carrie finally ending up with big and kind of
S2: giving her this traditional ending, which didn't really feel true
S2: to the character. But then the very last scene is her.
S2: Like walking down the road by herself, going to meet
S2: the girls, and she talks about like the most important
S2: relationship is her friends. And it was like the creators,
S2: like Michael Patrick King couldn't. He was like, couldn't bring
S2: himself to choose either party. Like hedged his bets. And everyone,
S2: I think, generally felt a bit like, are you like,
S2: you kind of dogged us there, like on either camp. Yeah.
S1: And I think that's interesting for a couple of reasons.
S1: It's a really good example of how a show can
S1: change over time. And so like what the characters would
S1: want at that phase in life is different to the
S1: idea of this show, starting when they're much younger and carefree,
S1: and also how you get shaped by what the audience wants,
S1: like fan service. This is this thing that drives shows,
S1: like there's ways to end a show that is perhaps
S1: more true to your creative vision and true to what
S1: the characters are at. But you're like, are fans that
S1: want that? They want to know who she ends up with.
S1: So we have to give them some of that as well.
S2: That's what's funny about the fan culture now, especially like
S2: I remember reading posts, I know I kept talking about succession,
S2: but it was such a recent finale and such a
S2: great one post that I think Jesse Armstrong did a
S2: big sit down with the Guardian, and he was like,
S2: we were sitting in the writers room, and we kind
S2: of felt like the what we knew in, like the
S2: marketplace of viewers was that people kind of wanted Kendall
S2: to maybe win. That was what they felt from the audience.
S2: And so they kind of tried to game it out
S2: a lot like to try and see like, oh, what
S2: about if we do this? What if we do that?
S2: Because they were kind of almost. And then eventually he
S2: was like, no, we're trying to right now with an
S2: audience in mind like, this is mental. And so they
S2: scrapped it because it never, never really worked in a
S2: way that was believable. But yeah, even at those top
S2: levels where, you know, you've got these writers rooms who
S2: obviously know their show and their characters inside out, it's
S2: very hard once a show becomes so popular and so buzzy,
S2: not to listen to, like what people are saying, what
S2: people are wanting.
S1: Should we talk about a couple of others that have
S1: not worked? Like, I think Game of Thrones is probably
S1: the clearest example of it being bad and it destroying
S1: the show's reputation. But a couple more that like, I
S1: don't think they went that far, but just totally fumbled
S1: the bag. Were you a lost head?
S2: Well, I didn't really watch lost, but I am aware
S2: almost around the dialogue around the finale.
S1: Yeah, I was really in on lost and I was
S1: in on it, you know, from the era where, like,
S1: you'd watch it on TV, you'd wait week to week
S1: to see what happened. You'd have the big six month
S1: breaks at the end of the season. And it was
S1: like an iconic mystery show. It's like there are all
S1: these mysteries, what's going to happen? And everyone had theories
S1: and people would debate them and like websites and forums
S1: and whatever. And basically, like every theory the creators would debunk,
S1: only to get to the end and be like, no,
S1: the thing that we debunked in season one that you
S1: all sort of probably thought it was, it was literally
S1: just that. And then it left a lot of mysteries
S1: unsolved as well. So I think people didn't feel like
S1: it gave them the conclusion to this great mystery box
S1: series that they were hoping for. The other one that
S1: I just want to touch on very briefly, Gossip Girl,
S1: you know that I'm a big Gossip Girl head. Uh,
S1: this was hilarious because they revealed who Gossip Girl was,
S1: and it was Dan Humphrey, which made no sense because
S1: he had been the subject of Gossip Girl. He ends
S1: up marrying Serena, who, Gossip Girl like, hounded to a
S1: suicide multiple times. Uh, I still think that show is great.
S1: I think you can enjoy a terrible finale when the
S1: show itself doesn't take itself too seriously. I mean.
S2: I won't hear bad. What about it? Because I may
S2: have modeled my personality off Seth for a large portion
S2: of my life. Then I soon moved on to Dan
S2: Humphreys after that. So Dan Humphreys can do no wrong
S2: in my book. And also he's just he's about for
S2: his time. He knew that he had to write about
S2: himself in order to be believable.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And it kind of checks out that this like,
S1: guy who didn't make it as an award winning writer
S1: just became a bitchy, anonymous Twitter account, essentially. Um, he's
S1: looking at all of you bitchy, anonymous Twitter accounts. A
S1: couple of other TV things we wanted to touch on
S1: Thomas post the finales discussion. Ripley previewed it last week.
S1: At that stage, I'd only say in the first few
S1: episodes I have now. It seems like a lot of
S1: people have caught up in it. On the weekend, you
S1: were like a little bit, maybe not that into it,
S1: it seemed, but you said you wanted to talk to
S1: me once I'd seen all of the episodes. So what
S1: is your final sort of take on Ripley?
S2: I feel like that's backfired because I know you're hyped
S2: on it. Look, I definitely agree that a, I feel
S2: like over the weekend everyone started to watch Ripley. But
S2: I would say again, I reckon from the people I've
S2: spoken to, opinions been really split. Some of my like
S2: trusted friends actually had a really big problem with the
S2: black and white thing, which is, you know, which take
S2: from that what you will. Other friends got really into it. Uh, look,
S2: I know you're going to love it because at the
S2: end they go back to 1606 and we see Caravaggio. Uh,
S2: I still I still stand by what I said. I
S2: really liked it. Um, I find it hard to distance
S2: myself from the emotion that I felt for the movie. And, like,
S2: that's a treasured film for me. So I think I
S2: struggled to to distance myself from that when watching it,
S2: but I still think it was really good. And, I mean,
S2: I do have a couple of queries about the finale, but,
S2: I mean, I assume you're about to be like, it's
S2: the greatest thing that's happened to me since Oppenheimer.
S1: Yeah, basically, this is exquisite, this TV show. It got
S1: better and better and better. Uh, to me, I actually
S1: went back and rewatched The Talented Mr. Ripley. And look,
S1: I think that's a great film. I love that film.
S1: These two things are trying to do something quite different.
S1: I think the film basks in like the first half
S1: of that movie is just how good is the south
S1: of Italy? Let's have a great time with these super
S1: hot people. And then it's like a little bit of
S1: a thriller cat and mouse sort of a thing. This
S1: series is like not trying to do any of that.
S1: It's not like obviously like Italy looks. Really interesting on screen,
S1: but it's not about the light and the the sun
S1: drenched beaches in the outfits or anything like that. As
S1: much as it's. I think we talked about it last week,
S1: this examination of wealthy people and their desperate desire to
S1: be seen as like, actually very interesting, smart artists and
S1: the way that, like, someone like Ripley is motivated by
S1: being on the outer, by proving that he can mingle
S1: with the best of them and how the minor details
S1: with how he gets away with various murders and things.
S1: Like in the film, you never really see that you
S1: see these inciting incidents, but you don't really get in
S1: detail how Ripley would extricate himself from these situations. What
S1: I found so fascinating about this show is the two
S1: episodes where there are two murders, and half the episode
S1: or more is just this, like, painstaking, like a Ripley
S1: attempt to. Cover his tracks, and it's like I had to, like,
S1: look away at some points because it was done in
S1: such an interesting way to build up such tension. And
S1: I didn't totally understand the Caravaggio references that kept making
S1: throughout the show, until you kind of get closer and
S1: closer towards the end and you understand that there's a
S1: couple of things going on. I think, like Caravaggio, this
S1: artist who relied on patronage, who was getting screwed over
S1: by the powers that be in Italy, who was accused
S1: of homosexuality at a time where, you know, that wasn't allowed.
S1: And certainly contemporary historians think that that was a big
S1: part of the subtext of what was going on. That
S1: is like an obvious parallel to Ripley and what he's
S1: dealing with. And I think the other part of it
S1: goes to the black and white of it. All right.
S1: And I get it's a little bit pretentious, and I
S1: can understand that some people think of it as a
S1: turn off. But when something's in black and white and
S1: you just got light and shade and you've got blackness
S1: and light of the two contrasts, and the show goes
S1: out of its way to make that point about Caravaggio
S1: a lot, that his work was pioneering in how it
S1: looked at the way that, like light is used to
S1: highlight certain things and put other things in the shadow.
S1: On one hand, that is just the creators of the
S1: show being like, we know our art history. Yeah. And also,
S1: and I think even they took it to the next
S1: level when there's this scene where Ripley is trying to
S1: disguise who he is and he's not quite sure how
S1: to get away with it, and then he has this
S1: flashback to Caravaggio. It's all in the light. And he
S1: does this thing where he, like, covers the curtain and
S1: sets up the light. That's like a nod to Caravaggio.
S1: But I also think this is like some real directors
S1: on their own bullshit, where they're like, this is what
S1: we do with every scene we construct. You guys just
S1: watch the show and you're like, it looks pretty nice.
S1: And it's kind of, well, this is how we construct light.
S1: And we're showing you that because we want to prove
S1: how smart we are. And I can understand that that's
S1: pretentious and whatever. But I also think to like do
S1: that little hat tip is pretty cool. And then the
S1: other bit of this show that I think just elevates
S1: to this, like top tier in terms of its storytelling
S1: and how it wraps up all the plot machinations. There
S1: was multiple times, particularly as we got closer towards the end.
S1: I was like, what about that? There's a plot hole here,
S1: but what if he just talks to that guy? Ripley
S1: deals with them all one by one, and it makes
S1: you think you thought. Audience member you were smarter than us. No,
S1: no no no. We're actually, like, two steps ahead of
S1: you the way Ripley was in this entire series. I'm like.
S1: What else do I want from television, man, I.
S2: Would say, but then one thing that did annoy me
S2: was he has a conversation, I think the finale with
S2: one of the Italian policemen, and he's basically he's spoken
S2: to him before as Dickie Greenleaf, but now he's got
S2: a beard and pushed his hair back. In the same
S2: we're talking about like there's no amount of light and shade.
S2: That doesn't make you think that that's not the same
S2: guy you spoke to, like two weeks ago. Yeah. Like, look,
S2: I'm being facetious, but I see what you're saying. And,
S2: I mean, look, I was really excited to see John Malkovich.
S1: I know who played Ripley in Ripley's game, so. So
S1: he kind of pops up sort of as a little
S1: bit of a as a hat tip to that.
S2: And then it's funny because we spoke about this earlier
S2: when talking about finales, but obviously we are kind of
S2: engineered now to always be liking what's next. And already
S2: people are like, Ripley, season two obviously is going to
S2: be amazing. He's going to be this new version of
S2: Thomas Ripley, and he will be teaming up because I
S2: think in the books John Malkovich's character, they become literal
S2: partners in crime. Absolutely. So I mean, look, that's exciting.
S1: That would be really cool. That'd be really cool. And
S1: I think Steve Zaillian, who signed on when this was
S1: originally not a Netflix show attached to the showcase in
S1: the US. I think the idea was to adapt all
S1: the Ripley books, so I'd be into that. But I
S1: think the reason I just want to talk about it
S1: again is now that I've seen it, I wanted to
S1: unpack it with you, but also I want to implore
S1: people to watch it. I know it's like not quite
S1: the same as a lot of other Netflix stuff. It's
S1: a hard one to second screen like, I think a
S1: lot of Netflix stuff. Yeah, a lot of Netflix stuff
S1: is made for. It's fun, it's entertaining. It's a bit
S1: like you can like, look after your kid, you can
S1: eat dinner, you can, you know, do the laundry. You
S1: can check Instagram and still keep up with what's going on.
S1: This is one that you really need to settle into.
S1: I do think it's worth it.
S2: It's really funny. Like all the stuff I've been watching
S2: lately is very much not a second screen show like
S2: Shogun Khan. Second screen. It got to be reading and
S2: it's funny with Ripley, I really need to watch it
S2: with the subtitles on. And originally we got screeners and
S2: so I don't you probably wouldn't impact you, but I
S2: have to watch the subtitles on because I have to
S2: have it down low so I don't wake up. My
S2: kid screeners didn't have.
S1: Subtitles.
S2: Yet because I really. Yeah, yeah. So I had to, like,
S2: always watch it when he was like out of the house.
S2: But I think it'll be I think season two, I
S2: do reckon people are into it now. Season two will
S2: be big and it'll be exciting because hopefully we'll be
S2: back by then. I explained to her who Caravaggio is
S2: and like what his whole vibe was. So that'll be good.
S2: But yeah, look, I if I went too hard last week,
S2: I don't want to, you know, go for like J.
S2: Cole and retract it. But I still love the show.
S2: I just love the movie too.
S1: Yeah. Well, you mentioned Shogun, which is the other one,
S1: and I actually kind of love a show that forces
S1: you to be engaged. Shogun does it not just because
S1: of its storytelling and its acting, but like 90% of
S1: the shows in Japanese. So if you are not watching it,
S1: you're missing out. And that can be a little bit
S1: annoying in our world where we are like on demand,
S1: a lot more messaging people, but it's kind of nice.
S1: I made this sounds like a bit psycho to say,
S1: but it's like the closest to meditation that I come
S1: to is having to put my phone away to just
S1: look at subtitles and enjoy your show for what it is.
S1: But that is the insane way that our brains work
S1: right now. I kind of.
S2: Agree with you. I really enjoying the reading aspect of
S2: showing and I mean like the show is not that
S2: easy to watch. Uh, we're episode eight aired this week.
S2: I think it's been a slow burn for people. People
S2: in the States seems to be eating it up. But
S2: the last two episodes particularly, I'm like fucking like locked
S2: in for the last two now did.
S1: The initial reviews were kind of like split between is
S1: this the new Game of Thrones? Is this succession the
S1: creators and interviews have said we thought a lot more
S1: about succession. I get both of the comparisons. It slowly
S1: started to dawn on me that one of the most
S1: succession elements of this show is this question of like
S1: fail sons, and that comes up again and again in this.
S1: I know people who might not be up to date
S1: with it don't want to give away too much in
S1: terms of what actually happens. But right from the start,
S1: there is this generational element, these generation of Japanese feudal
S1: warlords who have built their power by amazing strategic acumen
S1: and fighting fights, and being both great soldiers and great politicians,
S1: and then the next generation who've just grown up in
S1: the sort of the wealth of it, trying to prove
S1: themselves and not doing a great job. That element in both,
S1: like it's cutting satire of that kind of person, but
S1: also sometimes it's very dark. Humor is really working for me.
S1: The Game of Thrones bits exists, but it's not one
S1: for like giant battle scenes. It's not one for like
S1: heaps of very literal talk about who's aligning with who.
S1: So much of this show is what is unsaid. Like
S1: there are these long scenes where someone just like making
S1: tea for someone else, and that is displaying some kind
S1: of like power imbalance there. But then I think it
S1: has just enough of some faster moving, high octane stuff
S1: to keep you like the heart racing.
S2: Well, yeah, especially this most recent episode, episode eight. I mean,
S2: obviously I haven't watched Game of Thrones. Sounds like dog shit,
S2: but obviously I know it was very graphic and stuff,
S2: but there's so much in Shogun is like the threat
S2: or discussion of violence, and there's maybe like 3 or 4,
S2: like really, really gruesome moments that come out of nowhere.
S2: But they're they're like used sparingly. And in this most
S2: recent episode, we see one and it's like it makes
S2: a lot of sense why it happens, but it's amazing
S2: as well. Like, it's it's quite gruesome and quite gripping. Uh,
S2: I definitely think it has huge succession vibes. Like even in,
S2: you know, we saw Tanaka who's like, you know, let's
S2: essentially say the Logan of the show, he's got a
S2: son that like, pulled a pretty Kendall move in the
S2: most recent episode. I won't say any more, but yeah,
S2: the power, you know, struggle. And I just have found it.
S2: So like, it's one of those shows, four episodes, you're like,
S2: what the fuck is going on? And then once it
S2: all clicks, you're just like, so invested now I can't
S2: wait for. This week's episode.
S1: Yeah. And the way that it has done that, there
S1: was a scene a few episodes ago where a big
S1: group of people are ambushed. Right? And instead of showing
S1: the visceral action, you just see the aftermath of it.
S1: And that's like a bit of a bold move because,
S1: you know, post Game of Thrones, people love action scenes.
S1: I think Shogun has been billed as like a Game
S1: of Thrones, but set in like feudal Japan. And then
S1: just like, nah, man, we don't need to show you
S1: that because this show is not just about the action,
S1: it's about the politics and the intrigue behind it all
S1: as well. It is. It's. Yeah, it's it's moving to
S1: a conclusion. There's only two episodes left. There's 9 in
S1: 10 to go. I kind of don't. Have any idea
S1: what could happen. Like, I've not read the book, I've
S1: not seen the original show, but one guy who does
S1: seem to know everything that's happening is his main character,
S1: Tora Naga, Hiroyuki Sanada. And one thing that I started
S1: to bump on a little bit and I want to
S1: get your thoughts on this, is so many of the
S1: characters are fumbling in the dark. They don't have the
S1: master plan, uh, including, you know, the fan favorite John Blackthorne,
S1: played by Cosmo Jarvis is just like grunting and yelling
S1: and trying to get back to his ship. Uh, but Tanaka,
S1: he seems to be like 14 steps ahead of everyone else.
S1: I enjoy him, I think he's great. Hiroyuki Sanada is, like,
S1: just absolutely reveling in this role. He's doing such a
S1: good job, but a little bit of it is starting
S1: to be like, okay, so if we know that he's
S1: so far ahead of everything, presumably he's going to win.
S1: Does that take in a little bit of the tension
S1: out of where things are going?
S2: Yeah, I do, and it almost goes back to what
S2: we were talking about before. Like, obviously his main goal
S2: in this season is to kind of unite this faction
S2: and become the shogun of Japan. And so I do
S2: feel like that is inevitable because again, I'm like, well,
S2: this show has been such a breakout success. Like, obviously
S2: we will get a season two and that season two
S2: will probably be him either, like as Shogun, trying to
S2: hold on to power or whatever happens next. So I
S2: do feel like maybe it's becoming obvious where it's going
S2: to end up, but still, like, I'm kind of happy
S2: to sit along and see, um, it's funny, it feels
S2: I'm almost getting like the weird succession throwbacks where watching Tanaka,
S2: I'm like, man, this guy's got to be a lock
S2: for an Emmy and a globe next year. Like, not
S2: many performances on TV that that are rivaled that I
S2: think in this year to come.
S1: I completely agree. And I think like the the character
S1: of Mariko is, is doing a great job as well.
S1: I think there's a lot of just really good acting
S1: performances as well as the writing going on and.
S2: So much good luck. What we we know we love this,
S2: like facial acting so much good silent acting because there
S2: is like the scenes are not very dialogue heavy. Like
S2: this is not like the fucking West Wing. Yeah, yeah.
S2: So like there's so much said when there's like not
S2: much said, um. So yeah, I think I understand if
S2: you haven't got into Shogun yet and I know it's
S2: like eight episodes and they're dense like the most recent
S2: one was like over an hour. I still really think
S2: that people should just, like, commit.
S1: Well, there's a couple of other things to recommend, even
S1: though that was kind of an extended recommendation. Uh, little segment.
S1: But our regular Impress Your Friends is back where we
S1: recommend something we watch, listened to, read, or consumed in
S1: the past week. Mine is another TV show. It is
S1: called The Sympathizer. It drops on HBO in America on Sunday.
S1: So to be here in Australia on Binge on Monday afternoon,
S1: it's based on the 2015 Pulitzer Prize winning book by
S1: Viet Thanh Nguyen. The show has been adapted by Park
S1: Chan wook and Don McKellar. Park Chan wook is the
S1: director of one of my favorite films in recent years,
S1: Decision to Leave. Also Oldboy, a bunch of wonderful Korean films.
S1: He's worked in TV as well. He adapted John le
S1: Carré's Little Drummer Girl a few years ago. Uh, so
S1: the story is set in the 70s, and it's based
S1: on the story. There's one soldier, a North Vietnamese plant.
S1: He's a spy in the South Vietnam army. He's forced
S1: to flee to the US with the fall of Saigon
S1: at the end of the Vietnam War. And he's living
S1: with a group of South Vietnamese, I guess, refugees in
S1: in the States, but he's continuing to spy on them
S1: for the North Vietnamese, for the Viet Cong. So he's
S1: struggling between like, his loyalties and trying to adapt in
S1: this country. So many layers of like being a migrant,
S1: being a migrant in a, uh, from a, you know,
S1: racially and culturally marginalized group in America. And then within
S1: that feeling like you're a traitor because you're actually part
S1: of the group that sent these people there. Uh, it
S1: stars Sean Day as the main character is actually Australian. Uh,
S1: he was in Ronnie Chang's International student, Hungry Ghosts, last
S1: King of the cross. He was in the live action
S1: Cowboy Bebop. He is really, really good in this. It's a.
S2: Huge awesome.
S1: Win for for him. And he's alongside none other than
S1: Robert Downey Jr and Robert Downey Jr. I don't want
S1: to give too much away because what he does in
S1: the show is pretty fascinating, pretty unique in terms of
S1: what he's playing. It's really interesting. Does he do more.
S2: Than he did in Oppenheimer?
S1: Yeah, he does significantly more. I think if you're like,
S1: I like Robert Downey Jr. But I thought he was overhyped.
S1: And Oppenheimer this is like astonishing. The peak of of
S1: I think some of his acting.
S2: Yeah I feel like it's been getting really hot and
S2: HBO you know hits and misses lately, but I'm keen
S2: to see it. Yeah.
S1: What have you got for us?
S2: Uh, I've actually had another long read. Oh, I know coming.
S2: The Long Read guy in Mel's absence. This one's from
S2: the New Yorker. It's a recent one. It's from last week. Uh,
S2: and it's by Andrew Ohagan. The Scottish author wrote mayflies.
S2: It's actually got another book coming out this year. Really
S2: good writer, but it's called the title is Scooter Braun
S2: and the Twilight of the Music Manager. Um, and I
S2: thought was really interesting because I've been kind of, like,
S2: quietly fascinated with the fall, I guess, the rise and
S2: fall of Scooter Braun, you know, as, as lots of
S2: people know to the stars. Yeah. Like Bieber, he kind
S2: of likes credited with, you know, finding Justin Bieber and
S2: Ariana Grande and all these, like, pop stars that we
S2: know now. And Scooter Braun was kind of like the brand.
S2: And of course, he had a very high profile, um,
S2: you know, public falling out with Taylor Swift after he
S2: basically bought her masters. And this article basically charts the, the,
S2: you know, it's called The Twilight of the Music Manager,
S2: and it charts the role of these, like, kind of
S2: career creators throughout time. So it starts like it goes
S2: from like, you know, Colonel Parker with Elvis, who we
S2: saw in, you know, the Elvis film and then it talks.
S2: Brian Epstein with the Beatles and all the way to
S2: Scooter Braun, and it talks about how the industry has
S2: changed in such a way that these people who, like, could,
S2: you know, make or break stars are no longer needed.
S2: And Scooter Braun was perhaps the last. Great. That's really interesting.
S2: So it was. Yeah, it was interesting.
S1: I was like, sold his company to some South Korean, like, music.
S2: Yeah, I think he's basically like, you know, his brand
S2: has been tarnished and.
S1: It's like a middle tier bureaucrat in another company.
S2: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that was a good long read.
S2: And you know, there's so much good TV and stuff out.
S2: But I thought he wanted to tap out. And you
S2: were sick of reading Shogun then? This is good. Yeah.
S1: Hard to read that whilst watching Shogun or Ripley. Yeah. Um,
S1: but maybe I don't know if you're doing a rewatches
S1: of curb. You could also read that on your second screen, correct? Yes. Thomas,
S1: that was great. Thanks so much, man. Perfect.
S2: Thanks for having me.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Chai Wang.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
S1: a friend! I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!