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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell, Ed Mubarak, bro.

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S1: It's the end of Ramadan. We're eating you. We are.

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S1: I mean, I didn't fast, so I was eating anyway. But, uh,

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S1: my Muslim brothers and sisters are now eating. We're eating culturally, too.

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S1: I've always wanted to say that basically. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

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S2: Do you think you'll ever will? Fast.

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S1: Not again. I fasted a bit when I was younger

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S1: and like, you know, was parents have a little bit

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S1: more control of what you do when it comes to

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S1: religious observance. Uh, but I don't think that's in my

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S1: future unless it's like a shred for some sort of

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S1: like event that I want to look particularly good at.

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S2: I was going to say I obviously do like five two.

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S2: Obviously I do five two, but it's not religious, although

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S2: it is a religion to some.

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S1: We just watched both of us together before we came

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S1: in to record this. The brand new trailer for Joker

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S1: to fully adore.

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UU: Let's go boys! Thank you, baby. Ah!

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S3: Hey, Flack, you got a joke for us today.

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S4: We use music to make us whole. To balance the

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S4: fractures within our cells.

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S5: I'm nobody. I haven't done anything with my life like

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S5: you have.

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S1: And man, I've not seen someone's face light up like

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S1: that in real life. In a long time. You were

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S1: you were taken aback. That was a religious, if I

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S1: can say, experience.

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S2: It felt like I think it looks really good. I

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S2: loved the first one. And I mean, this is the

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S2: problem with, you know, this is the problem with people

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S2: who like it looks so good. And yeah, it's like

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S2: a bit of a wank and stuff, but I feel

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S2: like I appreciate those things. And I'm like, okay, I

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S2: know what you're trying to do, but I still looks

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S2: really good. Got me hyped. Lady Gaga's in it. Yeah.

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S2: The soundtrack. It was like, you know, really slow rendition

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S2: of like, why Do Birds?

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S1: Are you aware of the fact that the movie is

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S1: a musical? Yes. I wish you could see Thomas's face.

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S1: It's a musical. You're musical. There's like, 26 tracks in it. Yeah.

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S1: What Queen, Phoenix and Lady Gaga are singing in this film?

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S1: Are you serious? I'm 100% serious, dude.

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S2: But I'm everything.

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S1: What? So I was intrigued. I did not love the

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S1: first movie. The reasons we don't have to get into.

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S1: Now we can talk about it when and if we

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S1: talk about the second film. But it being a sequel

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S1: is interesting. Bringing in Lady Gaga is interesting. And then

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S1: when they announced that it was going to be a

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S1: musical made me think, okay, they're doing something, I'm interested,

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S1: I'm going to reserve judgment. The trailer very stylized. I

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S1: can see why it will bring a lot of people in.

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S1: I kind of remain unconvinced about. And this is you're

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S1: gonna make fun of me for saying this, like the

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S1: politics of the Joker film and what they're trying to

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S1: do and say at this current moment. But I like

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S1: Lady Gaga. And if this is kind of like A

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S1: Star Is Born meets the Joker, that could be interesting.

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S1: But I love the fact that you had no idea

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S1: it was musical.

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S2: Did you know that? I didn't know it was. No,

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S2: I didn't know.

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S1: That's why I asked you. But I had a suspicion

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S1: from from your glee that.

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S2: Okay, well, that does change a lot of things. But look,

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S2: I will join you in reserving judgment because I am

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S2: a big whacking guy, and I think Lady Gaga has

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S2: serious chops. Um, so obviously, minus that. What was that

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S2: bad Italian film she did? Uh, how's it Gucci?

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S1: Yeah.

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S2: Yeah. No, that's bad for everybody.

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S1: It's bad for everyone involved. Yeah. Um, yeah. Michael Mann,

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S1: who saw, uh, Adam Driver do a terrible Italian accent

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S1: and said, why don't you do that again in my

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S1: movie Ferrari? Uh, but, Thomas, the other thing I wanted

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S1: to mention before we get into today's episode is people

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S1: wanted me to check in on you. We spent last

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S1: week talking about a couple of great pieces of art

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S1: Beyoncé's new album, Cowboy Carter, and the new Ripley adaptation

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S1: on Netflix. And you're a bit, a little bit down

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S1: on both of them. A couple of people got in

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S1: touch and said, is he okay? Is everything going all

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S1: right with that guy Thomas? He was a little bit

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S1: flat on these two. Big, interesting, you know, big swings

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S1: at culture happening. So he's like.

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S2: An on air welfare.

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S1: Check. Yeah. Basically. Yeah.

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S2: Yeah. Look I actually had a few people getting in

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S2: touch with me and saying like, thanks for standing up, bro.

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S2: Thanks for saying what others wouldn't. Uh, no. Look, I

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S2: feel good. I actually listen back to the podcast and

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S2: I stand by you, even, in fact, sent me the

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S2: New York Times podcast, who had a similar discourse driven

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S2: discussion to us. Uh, so, I mean, aside from the

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S2: fact that, once again, the drop has its collective finger

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S2: on the pulse. Yeah.

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S1: Well, days before the New York Times podcast on this one. Yeah.

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S2: So, yeah. Look, I am good. I stand by everything

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S2: I said, obviously, uh, unless anything I said proves wrong,

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S2: in which case it was a mistake. But yes, I'm

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S2: excited to get into things this week.

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S1: Uh, and we actually will revisit Ripley because I've now

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S1: seen the entire show, and I think there's a bit

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S1: more to discuss there. But this week, in terms of

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S1: the world of television, one of the greatest shows ever

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S1: put to air wrapped up talking about Curb Your Enthusiasm.

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S1: The HBO series written by Larry David. It's basically a

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S1: fictionalized version of his actual life. This show has been

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S1: on the air for 12 seasons, spread out over 25 years.

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S1: Thomas Juneau, who was the president of the United States

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S1: when Curb Your Enthusiasm first went to air.

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S2: I don't know if you've heard of a little thing

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S2: called Reaganomics. Hahahahahahaha. Uh, no, it was Bill Clinton. That's crazy.

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S1: Isn't that insane?

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S2: It is crazy, given how much like the world has changed.

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S2: And you know, it's funny to put it in those terms,

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S2: like how many different cycles we've been through now.

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S1: So we had Bill Clinton, George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump,

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S1: Joe Biden, potentially Donald Trump again, all of that has

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S1: happened while Larry David has just been getting up to

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S1: ridiculous adventures in LA.

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S2: And it's I think it is crazy when you think

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S2: about like, curb finishing now and the fact that Seinfeld,

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S2: the finale, which we also talk about, finished in 1998.

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S2: So this guy has been making he's gone back to

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S2: back with two of the greatest like 30 years.

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S1: Yeah.

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S2: Like it's it's an insane feat. And I think, you know,

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S2: obviously there's been lots of, uh, breaks in the curb

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S2: kind of run, but still, it's an incredible, uh, achievement

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S2: that it won't probably be matched. I'm very, very sad

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S2: that Larry David has called time officially. I reckon this.

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S1: Time. Yeah. Okay, interesting. Let's get to that, too. I mean,

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S1: this this is a really fun finale to get into

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S1: just on its own terms. But we also thought it

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S1: was a good opportunity to discuss, I guess, the idea

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S1: of TV finales more generally when they have worked, when

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S1: they haven't, what kind of legacy they leave for a

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S1: show as well. And there's a lot of great iconic, good,

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S1: bad and kind of divisive finales to talk about. But first,

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S1: let's chat about curb. There was there was some talk

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S1: this season that Larry was going to explicitly reference the

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S1: infamous and very divisive Seinfeld finale, which he actually wrote

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S1: as well. There are a couple of conversations Larry was

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S1: having throughout this season of curb, where people brought up. Oh, yeah,

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S1: you worked on Sanford, right? You might have known that person.

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S1: And Larry was like, no, no, no, I actually stopped

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S1: after like season seven or whatever. And they're like, oh,

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S1: but you came back for the finale, and Larry's like, yeah,

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S1: I did. Why are you bringing that up? And in fact,

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S1: in this final episode, Leon starts watching Seinfeld for the

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S1: first time, which is so good. And there was some

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S1: interview where I think Jeff Schaffer, um, one of the

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S1: executive producers and writers, was like, yeah, just kind of

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S1: occurred to us that probably Leon has never watched Seinfeld,

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S1: so let's get him to watch it. He's binging it,

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S1: he's getting closer to the end. And he was like,

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S1: I love the show, Larry. But like, I'm getting close

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S1: to the finale. Everyone tells me you fucked it up,

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S1: so I can't wait to say it before we get

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S1: to the actual, like, conversation around the curb finale, which

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S1: is riffing off and paying homage to and then twisting

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S1: the Seinfeld finale, can you remind us of that and

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S1: why it was so controversial?

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S2: Yeah, well, so the Seinfeld finale aired in May 1998. Uh,

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S2: at the time, Stanford was already kind of considered in

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S2: the pantheon of great TV shows. And as you said,

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S2: Larry David had left, I think, after season six, um,

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S2: for a couple of seasons. And he came back to

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S2: write the finale. And, I mean, look, it was always,

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S2: I think, behind the eight ball from the get go,

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S2: given the show was about nothing. And so to wrap

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S2: up a show like that is a tricky thing to do.

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S2: And obviously, as it turned out, perhaps he fumbled it

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S2: a little bit. Essentially what it did was we found

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S2: the four main actors Jerry, George, Elaine and Kramer, who

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S2: were on trial for violating a Good Samaritan law because

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S2: they'd failed to help a person in need, which is

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S2: a very like Seinfeld type setup in the finale. Basically,

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S2: they're all on trial, um, being represented by Johnnie Cochran.

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S2: And we basically see this, like, revolving door of cameos

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S2: from people who the four characters have, like, wronged in

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S2: the past. You get the soup Nazi Babu, uh, Mabel

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S2: with the marble rye. And so all of these people

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S2: come back and they, you know, it's like a character

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S2: assassination on these guys essentially ends with them being convicted

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S2: by Judge Van Delay. And, um, while they're kind of

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S2: sitting in there, you know, waiting to be sentenced, they

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S2: start having a conversation about, you know, the placement of

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S2: George's buttons, which is from the very first episode of Seinfeld.

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S6: The second button is the key button. It literally makes

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S6: or breaks the shirt. Look at it. It's too high.

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S6: It's a no man's land.

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S7: How about we had this conversation before.

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S6: You think.

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S2: And that's basically where the show ends. Um, and so yeah,

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S2: that was this kind of like really divisive finale. People

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S2: thought they shouldn't have bothered moralizing these characters who, you know,

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S2: famously don't care about anything. Yeah. And yeah, it's kind

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S2: of been that watercooler conversation forever. Like, did the Seinfeld

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S2: finale live up to the show's hype or is it,

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S2: you know, perhaps the biggest flop?

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S1: And I think a lot of people were upset at

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S1: the time because they'd been building this finale up in

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S1: their heads, and a lot of it was like a

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S1: clip show, like highlights from the last few, which I

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S1: guess probably was more important back then because that was

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S1: an era before, like the ubiquity of the internet and YouTube.

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S1: You couldn't just watch your favorite clips from Seinfeld. I

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S1: don't know why all the people got so mad about that. Like,

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S1: that's great, let's get the Babu getting deported, you know,

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S1: sequence happening again.

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S8: You had my visa application.

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S9: Well, not technically, I see you. Well, what about.

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S10: Can. Both of you. No, Babu. No Babu. You bad man.

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S10: You very bad man. You very bad.

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00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,120
S1: Man. I'm going to fix everything. Basically with curb, we

222
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,459
S1: kind of got something very similar with a few tweaks

223
00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:29,339
S1: like the arc of this season. Was Larry facing jail

224
00:10:29,340 --> 00:10:32,849
S1: time because he this time was a good Samaritan. He

225
00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:35,520
S1: gave some water to anti-Black, who she was in a

226
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,790
S1: line trying to vote in a Georgia election. And there

227
00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:41,370
S1: is laws in Georgia that say that you can't do that.

228
00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:44,880
S1: The voter suppression laws, uh, Larry broke that accidentally and

229
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,730
S1: became this kind of cool celeb. The, uh, the finale

230
00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:50,910
S1: sees Larry and his friends head back to Atlanta for

231
00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:54,179
S1: the trial. Uh, and it's a roll call, basically, of

232
00:10:54,179 --> 00:10:57,990
S1: all of Larry's rivals throughout the years. Mocha Joe pops up.

233
00:10:57,990 --> 00:10:58,800
S1: Oh my God.

234
00:10:59,370 --> 00:11:01,800
S4: It's not Joe Bella, that's Mocha Joe.

235
00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:04,590
S11: Mr. Boca Belle I understand at one point you were

236
00:11:04,590 --> 00:11:07,140
S11: in the coffee business. Yes, I was, it was called

237
00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:09,329
S11: Mocha Joe's. Maybe you heard of it. Never have a

238
00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:13,979
S11: problem with anybody. Not really. Normal. Stop. Until one day

239
00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:15,780
S11: Larry David came in. Could you tell us?

240
00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:18,209
S1: You get this sense that Larry is actually a terrible

241
00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:22,230
S1: person who does terrible things? Very reminiscent of the Seinfeld finale. Uh,

242
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:25,050
S1: and I guess spoilers if you have not seen the

243
00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:30,150
S1: code finale yet. This time again, Larry gets convicted. But

244
00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:33,000
S1: while he's in prison, just awaiting, I guess, getting sent

245
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,120
S1: to the the facility where he'll spend a year in prison.

246
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,630
S1: Jerry Seinfeld rocks up and says, actually, it turns out

247
00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:41,849
S1: you're out because one of the jurors who was supposed

248
00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:44,460
S1: to be sequestered. I ran into him in, like, a restaurant,

249
00:11:44,460 --> 00:11:48,179
S1: Mexican restaurant, that sequester, sequester. And then they walk out

250
00:11:48,179 --> 00:11:50,550
S1: of prison. And I think Larry turns to Jerry and says,

251
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:52,110
S1: you know what? This is how we should have done

252
00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:54,300
S1: the the Sanford finale. And the way that the Cove

253
00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,900
S1: finale really ends is with Larry on a plane with

254
00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:01,109
S1: Jeff and Susie and Leon and Richard and Cheryl, his

255
00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:03,570
S1: ex-wife and Ted, and they're just bickering. And I think

256
00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:06,060
S1: curb is actually, uh, one of the interviews I read

257
00:12:06,059 --> 00:12:08,130
S1: is that actually filmed that sort of scene to end

258
00:12:08,130 --> 00:12:09,990
S1: a couple of seasons in the past, but there was

259
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:11,579
S1: just too many things going on, so they cut it out.

260
00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:15,360
S1: So the ending feels way more true to the show

261
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,209
S1: than a sort of statement on what's happening with Larry.

262
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,729
S1: How did you feel about this final episode, maybe the

263
00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:21,839
S1: final season of curb?

264
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,870
S2: Yeah, I think he really like Nailed It. And it's

265
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:28,830
S2: funny because. There's lots of like, discussion now about whether

266
00:12:28,830 --> 00:12:32,340
S2: or not was he really trying to directly address people's

267
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:35,280
S2: issue with the Seinfeld finale. And I just feel like,

268
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,940
S2: you know, that's putting too much like consideration, I think,

269
00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:40,620
S2: on Larry David, I don't think he even cares. If

270
00:12:40,620 --> 00:12:42,689
S2: you liked the Seinfeld finale, I think he was just like,

271
00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:45,450
S2: this is a really funny troll. Almost. Yeah. So just

272
00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:48,780
S2: redo Seinfeld, tweak it slightly, and and like, that's it.

273
00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:50,850
S2: My the two two of the biggest TV finales of

274
00:12:50,850 --> 00:12:52,740
S2: all time. I wrote them both and they're both exactly

275
00:12:52,740 --> 00:12:53,309
S2: the same thing.

276
00:12:53,309 --> 00:12:55,560
S1: Yeah, it's kind of like such a great Larry David.

277
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,179
S1: Like I'm pretty. I don't know how to end this.

278
00:12:57,179 --> 00:12:58,620
S1: I'll just do what I did last time. I don't

279
00:12:58,620 --> 00:12:59,940
S1: give a fuck if you like, I don't know.

280
00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:01,740
S2: Yeah. And they're like, yeah, there's a small tweak with Jerry,

281
00:13:01,740 --> 00:13:03,810
S2: but even bringing Jerry back, it was just. Yeah. And

282
00:13:03,809 --> 00:13:06,630
S2: I think, look, I would say the Venn diagram crossover

283
00:13:06,630 --> 00:13:08,310
S2: of people who love Seinfeld and people who love curb

284
00:13:08,309 --> 00:13:11,700
S2: is like the 98th percentile. And so there were just

285
00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,910
S2: so many Seinfeld hat tips in this episode that, you know,

286
00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:18,030
S2: the airplane scene, Jerry coming back, even the conversation between

287
00:13:18,030 --> 00:13:19,140
S2: hey and Jerry about the bearded.

288
00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:20,880
S6: Lady get together. You go to.

289
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,819
S12: The bearded lady's apartment. It's a normal apartment.

290
00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:24,600
S6: Nothing freakish.

291
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,460
S12: No, nothing freakish at all. You wouldn't know you were

292
00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:29,730
S12: in a freak's apartment. No. Okay, now you see this picture?

293
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,290
S12: This gorgeous woman? Yeah. And your friend says to you,

294
00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:37,170
S12: that's the bearded lady. She has no beard.

295
00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:38,550
S6: Clean shaven, bearded lady.

296
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:43,020
S12: She's quitting the circus. She's got a big crush on you. Really?

297
00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:43,860
S12: She'd love. Yeah.

298
00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:46,530
S2: It was so, like, just like, straight from Seinfeld.

299
00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:48,449
S1: And I think there's also a callback to the pilot

300
00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:50,850
S1: where Larry's got his corduroy pants on. Yeah, and he's

301
00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:54,600
S1: got the pants tent, and that's like George with the buttons. Yeah, yeah.

302
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,150
S2: So it just felt like it was tailor made for people. And. Yeah,

303
00:13:57,150 --> 00:13:58,860
S2: I thought they did a really good job. And it

304
00:13:58,860 --> 00:14:01,950
S2: really is a hard thing to do. And I think

305
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:04,079
S2: probably we don't realize yet, but there will be a

306
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,810
S2: big curb shaped hole in all of our lives. Yeah, I.

307
00:14:06,809 --> 00:14:09,750
S1: Enjoyed the season a lot. I think the show is

308
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:12,390
S1: not quite what it used to be. I think it

309
00:14:12,390 --> 00:14:15,929
S1: used to be so much more layered and complex, like

310
00:14:15,929 --> 00:14:19,740
S1: you'd have these multiple plots that would all come together,

311
00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:22,590
S1: and it's really sharp way. I feel like the last

312
00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:25,290
S1: couple of seasons, it's been a bit more hit and miss,

313
00:14:25,290 --> 00:14:27,090
S1: like there's been a little bit of that, but there's

314
00:14:27,090 --> 00:14:30,660
S1: also just been a real joy in Larry, like just

315
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:33,810
S1: kicking around the house with Leon, like talking absolute shit. Like,

316
00:14:33,810 --> 00:14:35,280
S1: I think it was either this season of the last

317
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,790
S1: season where there was this like two episode ongoing bit

318
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:42,960
S1: about Larry's distaste for Little Women, and I'm not going

319
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,660
S1: to say it out loud, but what Leon thinks he's

320
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:48,420
S1: talking about when he's talking about the Book of Little

321
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:50,400
S1: Women is just extraordinary, has a little bit more of

322
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,830
S1: the kind of non-sequiturs, I think, than than they used

323
00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:55,260
S1: to be. And then sort of the, the layered, complicated

324
00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:58,710
S1: plots of sort of disappeared. But I'm starting to realize that, like,

325
00:14:58,710 --> 00:15:00,570
S1: not that I watched this show from the age of nine,

326
00:15:00,570 --> 00:15:02,400
S1: like when I first came out, but for a long,

327
00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:04,230
S1: you know, like the last ten years of my life

328
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:06,390
S1: at least, this has just been a thing. This has

329
00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:08,790
S1: just been like, this is culture. Like every year or

330
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:10,560
S1: every couple of years, there'll be a new curb season.

331
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,230
S1: You watch it, you talk about it. And I'm getting

332
00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:16,350
S1: pretty sad realizing that that kind of cast of characters,

333
00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:18,120
S1: that world is not going to be part of my

334
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:18,870
S1: life anymore.

335
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:20,610
S2: Yeah, I do, I would say at least it's a

336
00:15:20,610 --> 00:15:23,310
S2: very good like revisit show. You can easily start at

337
00:15:23,310 --> 00:15:25,560
S2: the start after just finishing it and like it just

338
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,570
S2: washes over you. But yeah, I think it is sad.

339
00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:29,820
S2: It's funny. Like we I think in the last few

340
00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:31,979
S2: years especially, we're kind of getting more and more into

341
00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:34,710
S2: like high concept TV and you know, like succession mania

342
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:36,630
S2: and all of that stuff. And that's really like what

343
00:15:36,630 --> 00:15:39,480
S2: galvanizes people and gets people going and, and drives like

344
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,880
S2: these big conversations that we have. And so perhaps it's

345
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,030
S2: harder now for shows like curb to exist and really

346
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:47,940
S2: thrive because it doesn't feel like enough. But they do

347
00:15:47,940 --> 00:15:49,470
S2: have such a special place. And this is the same

348
00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:51,240
S2: thing with Seinfeld, especially when you talk to young people

349
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,610
S2: about Seinfeld. They don't seem like I say young people,

350
00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:56,010
S2: but like if you're, you know, in your 20s now,

351
00:15:56,010 --> 00:15:58,530
S2: like in your early 20s and you go and watch Seinfeld,

352
00:15:58,530 --> 00:16:01,050
S2: it doesn't seem to like land in the same way.

353
00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:03,240
S2: And I just think that culture around these shows that

354
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,990
S2: don't really have anything that big to say has changed

355
00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:08,910
S2: so much, because we do feel that we need to

356
00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:12,000
S2: be talking about these big, important, high concept shows. And

357
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,430
S2: and yeah, I think the beauty of curb as well

358
00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:16,230
S2: has always been it's like, you know, Larry is this

359
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:20,940
S2: kind of audience surrogate who is constantly, like running afoul of, like,

360
00:16:20,940 --> 00:16:23,100
S2: you know, accepted etiquette and stuff. And it's very funny

361
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,250
S2: to watch him, like fumbling his way through life and maybe,

362
00:16:26,250 --> 00:16:28,560
S2: like increasingly did get a bit looser and a bit

363
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,350
S2: more ridiculous. And and maybe it didn't land as much

364
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:33,810
S2: in the later seasons, but I. Yeah, I'm gonna miss it.

365
00:16:33,810 --> 00:16:35,970
S1: Me too. And I think, like, just hearing you talk

366
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:38,190
S1: about it as well, thinking about like, what are the

367
00:16:38,190 --> 00:16:40,380
S1: bits of curb that made it so different? I think one,

368
00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:41,820
S1: you and I talked about this a lot on the

369
00:16:41,820 --> 00:16:44,250
S1: show before. How many shows are there that have been

370
00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:45,870
S1: around for that long, that have had such a big

371
00:16:45,870 --> 00:16:48,960
S1: cast that we've fallen in love with and appreciated, like

372
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,530
S1: that era of long running sitcoms like this doesn't exist.

373
00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:55,110
S1: I know that like Grey's Anatomy is entering its 75th

374
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:56,700
S1: season or whatever, and I know that there are Grey's

375
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,010
S1: heads and like the law and order heads who love that.

376
00:16:59,010 --> 00:17:02,130
S1: But in like sitcom land for something that is this funny,

377
00:17:02,130 --> 00:17:04,980
S1: in this shop, you just don't have stuff like that anymore.

378
00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:07,050
S1: You kind of fall in love with it, and there's

379
00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:08,969
S1: a couple of shows that do it, but then they

380
00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:11,820
S1: wrap up after 2 or 3 seasons. So this is

381
00:17:11,820 --> 00:17:13,920
S1: very unique in that it has been with us for

382
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,000
S1: so long. And then the observational humor and Larry taking

383
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,330
S1: things to the extreme and poking fun of himself, poking

384
00:17:21,330 --> 00:17:26,119
S1: fun of. Woke culture from both perspectives. But I always

385
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,790
S1: got this sense that Larry was on the right side,

386
00:17:28,790 --> 00:17:30,679
S1: which is a really fine line to walk like. You

387
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,440
S1: see these older comedians who are decrying the state of

388
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,390
S1: the world and they're like, you can't say anything anymore.

389
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:38,300
S1: And Larry does that a little bit, but you know,

390
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:41,659
S1: from genuinely who the targets are and what he says

391
00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:45,500
S1: outside of the show, he's not like some curmudgeonly old

392
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:47,840
S1: conservative who doesn't like the way the world's going.

393
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,760
S2: No, he's not like a Ricky Gervais.

394
00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:50,540
S1: Yeah, exactly.

395
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:52,970
S2: John Cleese or anything like that. I think he's almost

396
00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:56,300
S2: like needling those guys a little bit. And that's the thing. Like,

397
00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:59,270
S2: he does just have such a talent for being able

398
00:17:59,270 --> 00:18:02,510
S2: to force the audience to really, like, put themselves in

399
00:18:02,510 --> 00:18:04,369
S2: his position and be like, if I was, you know,

400
00:18:04,369 --> 00:18:06,800
S2: like a Jewish guy who wanted to eat this delicious

401
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,000
S2: Palestinian chicken, like, what would I do? And I just think,

402
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,000
S2: you know, we don't get that much TV that makes

403
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,350
S2: us really think like that anymore.

404
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:18,320
S1: Yeah. One of the ongoing topics since 2017, I guess,

405
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,869
S1: was Larry engaging with me too. I did you.

406
00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:22,220
S13: Pig.

407
00:18:22,220 --> 00:18:26,359
S14: Oh, no, Nancy, that is not Harvey Weinstein. I'm so sorry, Jeff.

408
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:29,900
S1: Which is so dicey. Right? Like, this is an old

409
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:32,869
S1: white guy who's been in media and television for a

410
00:18:32,869 --> 00:18:35,419
S1: long time, who's been associated with Jerry Seinfeld for a

411
00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,340
S1: long time. And, I mean, they made a couple of

412
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:39,350
S1: jokes about in the finale, but some of the stuff

413
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:41,900
S1: with Jerry and his, like, younger years with like, certain

414
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,310
S1: girlfriends is not great. And Larry manages to both, I guess,

415
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:50,540
S1: find the comedy in some of the more extreme ways that,

416
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:54,950
S1: like me too, is manifested, particularly in Hollywood, but always

417
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:57,500
S1: make you feel like it's not like he's saying, this

418
00:18:57,500 --> 00:18:59,420
S1: is bad. It's not like he's saying that like women

419
00:18:59,420 --> 00:19:02,030
S1: shouldn't be speaking up. That is such a smart and

420
00:19:02,030 --> 00:19:04,639
S1: sophisticated and fine line to draw. I don't know, maybe,

421
00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:06,680
S1: maybe if Mel was here, she'd say, you guys suck.

422
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,840
S1: That's like the word no, I'm not trying to pigeonhole

423
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,170
S1: Mel as, like, being, like, the boring one or whatever, but, um. Yeah,

424
00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:15,260
S1: I just think it's so hard and it's so rare.

425
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:18,109
S1: And maybe a lot of younger generation of comedians, they

426
00:19:18,109 --> 00:19:19,909
S1: don't want to tackle that. Right? Like it's risky. It

427
00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:23,570
S1: genuinely it's like really risky to try to take aim

428
00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:27,860
S1: at these kinds of moments, these movements, and be able

429
00:19:27,859 --> 00:19:29,930
S1: to pull it off. And even if you do, you

430
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:32,750
S1: aren't necessarily rewarded for it. And and there are more

431
00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:34,879
S1: risks than there are benefits. So you kind of need

432
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,970
S1: someone like Larry who's like, I've made my stack. I'm fine.

433
00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:40,700
S1: You can't do anything to me. I'm 76 years old

434
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:42,320
S1: to be able to take that kind of a risk.

435
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,109
S1: And yeah, I'm not sure who the next one of

436
00:19:45,109 --> 00:19:45,740
S1: him is.

437
00:19:45,740 --> 00:19:47,420
S2: Yeah, I know, and I don't know if there will

438
00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:49,310
S2: be another. You know, as we said, he's been doing

439
00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:52,760
S2: this since, you know, the early 90s with Seinfeld. And

440
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,570
S2: so the fact that that is over now is so strange. And, yeah,

441
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:59,780
S2: I really think the finale and this is another thing

442
00:19:59,780 --> 00:20:02,030
S2: I think is interesting. You know, we spoke about Beyonce

443
00:20:02,060 --> 00:20:05,180
S2: last week. Everyone's quite divided, but most people like it.

444
00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:06,500
S2: But you know, this has no.

445
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:08,480
S1: Matter critics scores like 95 I think I think a

446
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,100
S1: lot of people like it. There's an important 5% there.

447
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,130
S2: But this has been a pretty well received finale, which

448
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:15,859
S2: is like incredibly rare, I would say. I mean, succession

449
00:20:15,859 --> 00:20:18,350
S2: people loved as well universally. But yeah, I haven't read

450
00:20:18,350 --> 00:20:20,000
S2: a bad thing about the finale. So yeah.

451
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,880
S1: Let's let's talk about finales generally because I think, I

452
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,369
S1: think this one, and it's why I also like the

453
00:20:25,369 --> 00:20:28,400
S1: Seinfeld finale. Both of them did a thing that is

454
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,510
S1: pretty rare again, for comedies, where they kept the tone

455
00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:35,480
S1: of the show. You say this with shows like Friends

456
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,630
S1: and The Office, where they're funny shows, the situation comedies,

457
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:42,080
S1: but they get a bit maudlin, a little bit somber,

458
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,380
S1: everyone's crying and that like, people like that, you're saying

459
00:20:45,380 --> 00:20:47,240
S1: farewell to characters you've watched for ten years or whatever,

460
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,180
S1: but it's really hot. Like, I don't think a Seinfeld

461
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,190
S1: finale would have felt good if it was like Elaine

462
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:53,930
S1: crying about the fact that she's not going to hang

463
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:56,719
S1: out with Jerry again. Well, I can imagine, like in

464
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,879
S1: one of the most curb things ever, they released this

465
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,220
S1: behind the scenes clip of when they wrapped the final

466
00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:04,460
S1: scene on the plane on curb. Jeff Schaffer, who's the EP, says,

467
00:21:04,460 --> 00:21:06,439
S1: you have to wrap on the funny show of all time.

468
00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:07,730
S1: All right.

469
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:10,160
S15: That's a wrap on the funniest show ever.

470
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:18,510
S16: Larry David treated me like like a god. And all

471
00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:20,639
S16: of you had. And this is the greatest experience of

472
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,950
S16: my career, and I love each and every one of you.

473
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:23,550
S16: I'm honored.

474
00:21:23,550 --> 00:21:26,280
S1: And Richard Lewis, like, gives a speech. And it's obviously

475
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,530
S1: very sad because he's passed away now and he's just

476
00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:31,770
S1: thanking Larry for treating him like a god. Cheryl. Larry's wife,

477
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:34,470
S1: she's crying as as they've cut and the cameras turned

478
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:36,750
S1: to Larry and everyone's expecting him to give a speech,

479
00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:38,429
S1: and he just kind of shrugs in, wanders off, and

480
00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:40,380
S1: I'm like, that's the tone of Larry. That's the tone

481
00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:42,060
S1: of the show. It wouldn't have been right if they

482
00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:45,870
S1: actually showed everyone crying on the plane. But I mean,

483
00:21:46,109 --> 00:21:48,869
S1: that brings up this question of like, how do you

484
00:21:48,869 --> 00:21:52,920
S1: land a finale and how do you perhaps go wrong

485
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,730
S1: with it? And sometimes, man, these things break people's brains.

486
00:21:56,730 --> 00:21:59,730
S1: Finales are a really, really interesting topic because some people

487
00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:02,580
S1: think that a great finale means that the show is good.

488
00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:05,399
S1: Some people think that a bad finale has destroyed the

489
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,530
S1: entire legacy of the show. And there are some finales.

490
00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:09,899
S1: I think the The Sopranos one is a great example

491
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:12,120
S1: where there's like a split down the middle of whether

492
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,150
S1: people think it's good or bad. And, and I guess

493
00:22:15,150 --> 00:22:18,780
S1: I find the finale when it comes to television conversation

494
00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:21,150
S1: a bit funny, because I've got my own thoughts about

495
00:22:21,150 --> 00:22:23,670
S1: what makes a good and bad finale, but I don't

496
00:22:23,670 --> 00:22:26,640
S1: generally see it as being that linked to the quality

497
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,770
S1: of the overall show. But when you think about the

498
00:22:28,770 --> 00:22:33,690
S1: medium of TV generally like Multi-season years long television stuff

499
00:22:33,690 --> 00:22:36,570
S1: supposed to like a linear series, the whole point of

500
00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:38,369
S1: these shows is that there's not a narrative. It's not

501
00:22:38,369 --> 00:22:40,830
S1: like there's a start point and an end point. The

502
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:43,140
S1: point is you create a vibe, you create an environment,

503
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:46,020
S1: you create a cast of characters. You all hang out together.

504
00:22:46,170 --> 00:22:50,129
S1: There isn't, by definition, like a definitive end. So whether

505
00:22:50,130 --> 00:22:53,070
S1: it ends well or bad is kind of irrelevant to

506
00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:55,290
S1: me in a lot of ways, because that's not what

507
00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:57,450
S1: the show's been trying to do. And if I do

508
00:22:57,450 --> 00:22:59,459
S1: show rewatches, I often won't make it all the way

509
00:22:59,460 --> 00:23:01,560
S1: to the end because you can see them starting to

510
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,750
S1: wrap things up. And that's not what I'm watching the

511
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:06,090
S1: show for. But I mean, how do you feel about, like,

512
00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:08,370
S1: do you put a lot of weight in stock, and

513
00:23:08,369 --> 00:23:11,070
S1: do you think finales can make or break a show?

514
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,350
S2: I think they I mean, I think it's been showing

515
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,750
S2: that they can kind of make or break. Yeah, I

516
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:17,190
S2: do put a lot of stock in it because I

517
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:19,710
S2: think it's just really hard. It's human nature. You're watching

518
00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:21,960
S2: a story. A story has a beginning, middle and an end.

519
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,720
S2: And so especially, you know, we get so much hype

520
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,370
S2: now around like even with curb, it was like it's

521
00:23:26,369 --> 00:23:28,290
S2: the last season. So from the minute you start episode

522
00:23:28,290 --> 00:23:32,070
S2: one you're like watching within the prism of like, how

523
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:33,990
S2: will this show end? Yeah, it was actually kind of

524
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:36,959
S2: interesting with curb because like Larry does so often be like,

525
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,580
S2: this is the final season. Oh, actually it's not. So

526
00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:40,770
S2: you didn't really know. But yeah, I mean, I do

527
00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:43,230
S2: think a good finale can change, you know, the way

528
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:45,960
S2: I feel about a show. I was incredibly nervous, as

529
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,410
S2: you remember about the succession finale. Yeah. Uh, and that

530
00:23:49,410 --> 00:23:52,110
S2: was a show I thought, look, probably in retrospect, it

531
00:23:52,109 --> 00:23:55,050
S2: wasn't going to change its legacy had the finale not been, like,

532
00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:58,919
S2: so great, but it was so like, note perfect. I

533
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,950
S2: think that succession, which was already on this incredible path,

534
00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:04,080
S2: everyone was so hyped about it, everyone was loving it.

535
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,109
S2: And then the finale just sat so perfectly atop that

536
00:24:07,109 --> 00:24:10,139
S2: entire mountain that it just solidified it as one of

537
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:12,930
S2: the great TV shows. And I know that, you know,

538
00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:15,000
S2: I don't watch this show and don't care for it,

539
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,399
S2: but from what I've learned in my research, which I

540
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,650
S2: do a lot of, is that the, for instance, Game

541
00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:22,440
S2: of Thrones, which was universally considered one of the greatest

542
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,930
S2: shows of our time. Yeah, I really felt like whatever

543
00:24:24,930 --> 00:24:26,639
S2: they did in that finale, fuck knows. I tried to

544
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,010
S2: understand on the internet, like whatever happened in that finale

545
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:31,860
S2: genuinely seems to have tarnished what people think of the show.

546
00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:34,080
S1: Yeah, those are both really great examples, I guess kind

547
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,000
S1: of counterpoints to what I was saying. Like, I think

548
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,900
S1: succession is in its own fascinating little category, where it

549
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:43,290
S1: was like a show, like it was committed at these moments,

550
00:24:43,290 --> 00:24:44,850
S1: and there was a big cast and you could have

551
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,380
S1: we said this at the time, you could have just

552
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:48,690
S1: hung out with these guys for another five seasons. But

553
00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:51,180
S1: it was also trying to tell a discreet story about

554
00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:54,330
S1: this family, this company, this point in America. What happens

555
00:24:54,330 --> 00:24:57,780
S1: when the patriarch. So it found a way to unite

556
00:24:57,780 --> 00:25:00,720
S1: those two things that I think so few TV shows

557
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,630
S1: managed to do. Game of Thrones is, I think, one

558
00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:07,890
S1: of the most clearest recent examples of a show that

559
00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:11,699
S1: just destroyed its entire cultural legacy by a bad finale.

560
00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:13,890
S1: That show I know that you didn't watch, but it

561
00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:16,020
S1: had this grip on the culture, right? It was the

562
00:25:16,020 --> 00:25:17,939
S1: most pirated show when it first came out. It was

563
00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:20,310
S1: the most watched show when it became easy to stream,

564
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:23,010
S1: people had watch parties like, I went to people's House,

565
00:25:23,010 --> 00:25:25,830
S1: you know, every time, once a week to to watch

566
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:27,930
S1: Game of Thrones. You read recaps, you listen to podcasts,

567
00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:31,050
S1: you debate. This was freaking everywhere. Then the last season

568
00:25:31,050 --> 00:25:31,650
S1: comes along.

569
00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:33,629
S2: So was because from what I can gather, the last

570
00:25:33,630 --> 00:25:35,070
S2: season itself was a bit of a cluster.

571
00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:37,800
S1: Fuck yeah. I think looking back, I think what generally

572
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,070
S1: people accept is Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners, really, really

573
00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:44,580
S1: good at adapting George R.R. Martin's material, did a great

574
00:25:44,580 --> 00:25:48,810
S1: job with a very complicated and dense story when George

575
00:25:48,810 --> 00:25:52,080
S1: hadn't finished writing The End, and I guess it kind

576
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,879
S1: of sketched out the plan and those guys had to

577
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,160
S1: just do it. They fumbled it a little bit. I

578
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,510
S1: also think there's a sense that they've been working on

579
00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:59,639
S1: that show for a very long time. They had other

580
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,500
S1: projects lined up and they're just like, let's get out

581
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:04,470
S1: of here. So things that normally would have taken 2

582
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:06,869
S1: to 3 seasons to happen in the earlier part of

583
00:26:06,869 --> 00:26:09,540
S1: Game of Thrones happened in like half an episode. It's

584
00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:13,729
S1: plots just like resolve very quickly. Character development happens. It's

585
00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:17,060
S1: so fast, without any acknowledgement. Characters that we were rooting

586
00:26:17,060 --> 00:26:20,750
S1: for had fascistic twists that made no sense. And then ultimately,

587
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:22,609
S1: the guy who ends up on the Iron Throne is someone.

588
00:26:22,609 --> 00:26:24,619
S1: People are just like, what the hell's happened to you?

589
00:26:24,619 --> 00:26:28,100
S1: And I think maybe it's because that show was so

590
00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:31,340
S1: good and people were so invested, it felt like a betrayal.

591
00:26:31,369 --> 00:26:33,470
S1: You've kept me on tenterhooks for 7 or 8 years

592
00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:36,590
S1: to find out what's going on. And then you, the creators,

593
00:26:36,590 --> 00:26:40,040
S1: have treated me with disrespect. So I no longer want

594
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,200
S1: to talk about this show at all anymore. It's kind

595
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,119
S1: of like the JK Rowling Harry Potter thing for a

596
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,700
S1: lot of fans. Like, I love this stuff. I don't really,

597
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:48,710
S1: you know, fuck with J.K. Rowling anymore. So I never

598
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:50,720
S1: want to talk about Harry Potter, but it's actually a

599
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,730
S1: really good example of how badly telling your ending can

600
00:26:55,730 --> 00:26:57,650
S1: ameliorate everything that came before.

601
00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:01,310
S2: Yeah. It's interesting. Like, it definitely seems to have ruined

602
00:27:01,310 --> 00:27:03,950
S2: that show for lots of people. I do feel like again,

603
00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:06,710
S2: this is probably recency bias, but I do feel like

604
00:27:06,859 --> 00:27:10,609
S2: the conversation around finales really did begin because you kind

605
00:27:10,609 --> 00:27:12,590
S2: of said it before. It's very different when it's like

606
00:27:12,590 --> 00:27:14,690
S2: a show, like a Seinfeld, even if you're disappointed a

607
00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:17,150
S2: bit like I feel like the conversation around finales did

608
00:27:17,150 --> 00:27:20,780
S2: begin with The Sopranos because it was, you know, talk

609
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:22,669
S2: about having a grip on the culture. Like, this is

610
00:27:22,670 --> 00:27:24,800
S2: obviously before the age of streaming and the internet had,

611
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,840
S2: like completely ruined us all. But, you know, it was this,

612
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,570
S2: like huge HBO drama. It was the start of prestige

613
00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:32,090
S2: TV for a lot of people. And, you know, this

614
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:35,600
S2: was appointment viewing in its first instance. And then obviously

615
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,030
S2: it remains, I think, probably the most. Even if you

616
00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:39,590
S2: haven't watched The Sopranos, I guarantee you you can tell

617
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:41,810
S2: me what happens in the final scene. Yeah. Spoiler alert

618
00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:44,450
S2: if you haven't, you're about 25 years too late. But obviously,

619
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:46,940
S2: you know, all we see is meadow trying to park

620
00:27:46,940 --> 00:27:49,370
S2: a car three times. She walks into a diner, Tony

621
00:27:49,369 --> 00:27:53,030
S2: looks up and the show cuts to black and I,

622
00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:55,880
S2: you know, have had this debate so many times. I've

623
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,210
S2: spoken to Michael Imperioli, who obviously plays Christopher, about his

624
00:27:59,210 --> 00:28:01,939
S2: thoughts on the finale, and even he admitted that I

625
00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:03,500
S2: think he thought his cable was broken at the time.

626
00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:05,629
S2: You know, this is which is, of course, such a

627
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:09,290
S2: 90s thing to say. But, you know, this is like that,

628
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,740
S2: I guess, redefined how, you know, David Chase is a genius,

629
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:15,560
S2: but redefined how a TV show should be ending. I

630
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,420
S2: personally think it's a great ending.

631
00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:20,119
S1: I think so too. I think the fact that it's

632
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,879
S1: ambiguous is so smart, and you could either read it

633
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,940
S1: as like, well, this was us spending six years in

634
00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:28,280
S1: the life of Tony Soprano, and we've just cut away

635
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,490
S1: from it. That's it. What happens next, happens next. Or

636
00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:34,459
S1: which I think, you know, there's a credible theory and

637
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:38,060
S1: it's probably the one that I subscribe to that there

638
00:28:38,060 --> 00:28:41,750
S1: was a hitman coming in the jacket. Yeah, exactly. And

639
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:44,660
S1: and I think there's a reference earlier in that season,

640
00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:47,030
S1: one of the characters is talking to Tony about, you know,

641
00:28:47,030 --> 00:28:49,700
S1: one I think like when it happens, you don't hear it,

642
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:52,250
S1: you don't feel it just happens like that's death. And

643
00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:55,610
S1: for a show that was about death from the very,

644
00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:58,760
S1: very start. And Tony's fear of losing control and death

645
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,280
S1: has haunted him and he's been responsible for it. It

646
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,400
S1: makes sense to me that his character just dies. You

647
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,590
S1: know that there's nothing left for him. That makes more

648
00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:08,330
S1: sense to me in terms of what the show is

649
00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:09,980
S1: trying to say than him sort of living this happy

650
00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:13,280
S1: family life. But either way, none of that changes whether

651
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,230
S1: the rest of the show was great or bad. And

652
00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:18,950
S1: either option sets up a world in the future of

653
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:21,350
S1: the Sopranos universe that is still very interesting and true

654
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:23,630
S1: to it. So it's really interesting. It's ambiguous, but either

655
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:26,870
S1: option is fine, and I think one makes more sense.

656
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:28,790
S1: But I also concede the merits for the other one.

657
00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:30,710
S1: I love the idea of ending to show that I

658
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:33,650
S1: know some people think it's a cop out, but I mean, like,

659
00:29:33,650 --> 00:29:36,650
S1: what's the counterfactual there that you see Tony bleeding or

660
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:38,750
S1: you just see Tony have a nice dinner and they

661
00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:40,520
S1: fade to black. Like, that's not compelling.

662
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,900
S2: But that's what I always wonder about people who get

663
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,000
S2: so obsessed with this. Like what? But what happened? Like,

664
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,950
S2: you know, I'm sure David Chase has spent the rest

665
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:48,770
S2: of his years asking being asked, Is Tony alive? But

666
00:29:48,770 --> 00:29:51,440
S2: like the people who really want those endings, like had

667
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,240
S2: had the guy in the members only jacket walked in

668
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,370
S2: and shot Tony in the head, like, would that have

669
00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:58,340
S2: satisfied them? Like, I just, I still don't really understand. Like,

670
00:29:58,340 --> 00:30:00,770
S2: you know, you look at all these kind of especially

671
00:30:00,770 --> 00:30:03,200
S2: these like prestige TV shows and try and figure out

672
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,000
S2: like maybe what they've got in common. And you kind

673
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,860
S2: of touched on it before, I think it's really about

674
00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:09,380
S2: staying true to like the soul of the show, even

675
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:11,270
S2: if it's so tempting when you are, you know, like

676
00:30:11,270 --> 00:30:14,090
S2: wrapping up something or bringing any project to an end,

677
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:15,890
S2: you know, you naturally feel like you need to tick

678
00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:17,810
S2: off certain things. But another one I think is great

679
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:19,040
S2: is the Mad Men finale.

680
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,510
S1: Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that.

681
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:22,640
S2: That I feel like was another show where people were

682
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,220
S2: very invested in, like it had built this entire world

683
00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:26,810
S2: with all these characters that you really cared about. And

684
00:30:26,810 --> 00:30:29,270
S2: it was like, how is this going to end? And again,

685
00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:31,280
S2: spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it, but we had,

686
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,140
S2: you know, Don Draper, played by Jon Hamm, who had

687
00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:36,200
S2: kind of gone on this like mythical, you know, like eat, pray,

688
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:36,890
S2: love journey.

689
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:39,380
S1: Totally like meditating at the end.

690
00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:41,210
S2: Yeah. Like he's not the ad man he once was.

691
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,640
S2: And then like, it ends with his, like, basically idea

692
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,860
S2: for a new Coca Cola ad like that really famous,

693
00:30:45,860 --> 00:30:46,850
S2: you know, ad from the 70s.

694
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,170
S1: They're all singing in a hill somewhere.

695
00:30:48,170 --> 00:30:50,270
S2: Yeah. And it's like, you know, that is Don Draper.

696
00:30:50,270 --> 00:30:52,010
S2: He's a fucking ad man. Like, I can't help it.

697
00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:55,520
S1: Like he's found a way to use the hippy dippy,

698
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,970
S1: meditative idea of bringing the world together to sell Coca Cola. Exactly.

699
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:01,430
S2: Which is. But it's, like, perfect for, you know, the

700
00:31:01,430 --> 00:31:03,410
S2: world that he exists in. And I think, you know,

701
00:31:03,410 --> 00:31:05,390
S2: but one of my favorite ones, I would say of

702
00:31:05,390 --> 00:31:07,940
S2: all time is Breaking Bad, and that I remember having

703
00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:11,810
S2: like a Breaking Bad finale party and again, like, you

704
00:31:11,810 --> 00:31:14,870
S2: had built this world where it. You know, everything hinge

705
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:16,550
S2: on what was going to happen in the finale, and

706
00:31:16,550 --> 00:31:18,800
S2: they did it perfectly. Everything that happened with Walter White

707
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,410
S2: and Jesse was really true to the characters. So I think,

708
00:31:21,410 --> 00:31:24,470
S2: you know, the temptation to offer closure or anything that's

709
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:26,930
S2: it's always there. But really, if you just stay true

710
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:28,130
S2: to the world you've built.

711
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,840
S1: There's a couple of other good and bad ones I

712
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,370
S1: want to talk to you about, but I just when

713
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:44,120
S1: you mentioned Breaking Bad, it made me think like, what's

714
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,930
S1: interesting about Breaking Bad, The Sopranos as well as Game

715
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:50,390
S1: of Thrones. And like, I guess there's this question about

716
00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:53,120
S1: whether curb is actually done or not. It's finales don't

717
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,270
S1: necessarily mean the end anymore. Like Breaking Bad and The

718
00:31:56,270 --> 00:32:00,350
S1: Sopranos have had prequel series. We've had the Game of

719
00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:02,480
S1: Thrones prequel series, House of the Dragon. I think there's

720
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,750
S1: more in development. It's interesting to me whether you think

721
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:09,020
S1: the white of the finale, like maybe part of the

722
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:11,900
S1: reason why The Sopranos finale also felt so emotionally resonant

723
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:14,570
S1: was because this is before the era of turning everything

724
00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:16,700
S1: into IP. And so it was like, well, this is

725
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,380
S1: the end. This is the end of the Sopranos universe.

726
00:32:18,380 --> 00:32:21,110
S1: And then 15 years later, it's like, guess what? I'm

727
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:23,060
S1: showing you what it was like in the 70s. And

728
00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:26,000
S1: now when a show ends, the immediate question is, well,

729
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,460
S1: what's the spinoff going to be? So a finale wraps

730
00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:30,830
S1: up a bit of the story, but not the whole thing.

731
00:32:30,830 --> 00:32:32,930
S1: Do you think that's shifted the way we think about

732
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:34,850
S1: the definitive end of shows? Yeah, I think so.

733
00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:37,100
S2: Because there is this kind of safety net like even

734
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,469
S2: with succession, you know, which I know we always go

735
00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:41,510
S2: back to. But like there was so much chat about like, oh, well,

736
00:32:41,510 --> 00:32:43,100
S2: Jesse Armstrong, do something else. Will there be like a

737
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:45,620
S2: Greg and Tom spinoff? Which is so crazy to think

738
00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:46,010
S2: we were.

739
00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:48,290
S1: We were high on some bullshit back then. We will.

740
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,020
S2: We have been conditioned now to be like, oh well,

741
00:32:51,020 --> 00:32:53,660
S2: we love this show. And you know, especially, you know,

742
00:32:53,660 --> 00:32:56,240
S2: the studios and stuff. Love this IP. And you know,

743
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,250
S2: they've got onto a winner here. So surely they were.

744
00:32:58,250 --> 00:32:58,700
S2: And if they could.

745
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:00,650
S1: Have convinced Jesse I'm trying to do it, they would

746
00:33:00,650 --> 00:33:01,640
S1: have 100%.

747
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,320
S2: Like or if he if he had come back and

748
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,600
S2: done like a you know, fast forward five years, a

749
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,550
S2: one off succession film. I mean, it may still happen.

750
00:33:07,550 --> 00:33:09,410
S2: I would be shocked. But yeah, I definitely think that

751
00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:11,270
S2: has changed because we do have this safety net now

752
00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:13,580
S2: where it's like, oh, well, it's really sad to say goodbye,

753
00:33:13,580 --> 00:33:16,340
S2: but you know, we know that there could be something coming.

754
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:19,490
S2: Whereas for instance, you know, not a great finale, but friends. Yeah.

755
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,620
S2: Very sad. That was just like completely, you know, they

756
00:33:21,620 --> 00:33:24,920
S2: leant so hard into the sincerity. Everyone ended up sobbing. Everyone, every.

757
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,650
S1: Shot look like them just crying nonstop. Yeah.

758
00:33:27,650 --> 00:33:29,660
S2: Like they all like put the keys on the end.

759
00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:31,910
S2: Like it was all very sad. But I think people

760
00:33:31,910 --> 00:33:33,739
S2: really knew that was the end. You know, it was

761
00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:36,200
S2: a huge show that had turned these six kind of unknowns. Yeah.

762
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,370
S1: But then they made Joey.

763
00:33:39,380 --> 00:33:40,490
S2: They did make Joey.

764
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,260
S1: Everyone forgets about Joey with Memory Hole.

765
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:43,820
S2: Joey I mean, that's why for the best.

766
00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:46,880
S1: Yeah, definitely. Uh, one I guess that's sort of in

767
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,600
S1: the same vein as friends, but I think did that better.

768
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,750
S1: Is The Office. I think the office finale, like The Office,

769
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:56,570
S1: was always pretty funny, but had this heart to it.

770
00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:59,450
S1: Which office are we talking? I'm talking about the American office. Okay. Um,

771
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,640
S1: and then, you know, they brought back Steve Carell, and

772
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,530
S1: that was like some teary moments, but it was also

773
00:34:03,530 --> 00:34:06,920
S1: just a genuinely very funny episode. And I think that

774
00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:10,070
S1: is another good example of it staying true to the

775
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:12,380
S1: show that it had always been, because as a version

776
00:34:12,380 --> 00:34:15,529
S1: of that show where it's just 75 minutes of everyone crying,

777
00:34:15,530 --> 00:34:17,570
S1: I'm glad that I didn't do that. I never finished.

778
00:34:17,570 --> 00:34:19,730
S1: I mean, I actually never have seen the British office.

779
00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:21,710
S2: Oh my God, yeah, okay. You yelled at me for

780
00:34:21,710 --> 00:34:23,990
S2: not having seen fucking It's a Wonderful Life, whatever it's called.

781
00:34:23,989 --> 00:34:25,940
S1: Yeah, I know that Ricky Gervais wasn't as weird then

782
00:34:25,940 --> 00:34:27,770
S1: as he is now, but I just, like, Guy annoys

783
00:34:27,770 --> 00:34:28,250
S1: me so much.

784
00:34:28,370 --> 00:34:30,709
S2: The show is very funny. You know the one? Probably

785
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,380
S2: one of the weirdest finales he's had in recent times. Neighbours.

786
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:37,520
S2: How angry is Kylie Minogue about coming back for that finale?

787
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,500
S2: Only for then Freeview and Amazon to step in and

788
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:41,359
S2: be like, we were just joking. Six months later, did.

789
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,950
S1: You see this story from this week that, like, Harold

790
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:44,390
S1: is coming back to neighbours? Yeah.

791
00:34:44,390 --> 00:34:44,989
S2: Isn't he dead?

792
00:34:45,020 --> 00:34:47,120
S1: I'm not clear. Like, it's so funny that ten years

793
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,980
S1: ago that would have been like, stop the presses. Like

794
00:34:48,980 --> 00:34:52,250
S1: Harold Bishop is coming back to neighbours. But just that show.

795
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:53,900
S1: Just let it let it die.

796
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:55,790
S2: And this, I think, is also like a part of

797
00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:58,820
S2: a wider, you know, external from neighbours problem. People do

798
00:34:58,820 --> 00:35:01,040
S2: feel a little bit cheated now because we do still

799
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,620
S2: get emotionally invested in these finales and we, you know,

800
00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:05,660
S2: the way they market them and everything, you know, it

801
00:35:05,660 --> 00:35:08,209
S2: becomes such a big thing I can say in six

802
00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:10,550
S2: months if we do like get a surprise curb, even

803
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:12,290
S2: though I feel like I would be excited, I think

804
00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:15,080
S2: I'd be a bit like, okay, I feel cheated now,

805
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,569
S2: like you, you actively got me invested in saying goodbye

806
00:35:17,570 --> 00:35:20,390
S2: to these characters. I enjoyed the finale. I wrote and

807
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:22,069
S2: thought and talked about it, and now, like we're just

808
00:35:22,070 --> 00:35:23,810
S2: doing it all over again. So I think it's a

809
00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:26,510
S2: tricky thing, you know, like buying into this, extending the

810
00:35:26,510 --> 00:35:28,250
S2: show all the time and keeping the world going.

811
00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:31,460
S1: Yeah, there's something to be said about the like, real clear.

812
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:33,500
S1: And like, there's a couple I wanted to mention more

813
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:35,420
S1: recently that I think have done that really well. One

814
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:38,600
S1: is Derry Girls, the Netflix show. Um, I loved how

815
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,110
S1: that ended. I think, again, it was like a nice

816
00:35:42,110 --> 00:35:44,839
S1: ending in terms of where each of the characters was

817
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,570
S1: at sort of emotionally and where they're at in their lives. But,

818
00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:50,390
S1: you know, the ongoing theme of that show was the

819
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:53,089
S1: Troubles in Northern Ireland and the violence that was afflicting

820
00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:54,529
S1: all of these people as they grow up. And so

821
00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:57,980
S1: showing them, like vote on on the Good Friday Agreement was,

822
00:35:57,980 --> 00:36:01,009
S1: was really powerful, really interesting. You kind of got the

823
00:36:01,010 --> 00:36:04,009
S1: ending of like the politics as well as where the

824
00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:06,500
S1: characters were at and you're like, okay, that's it, that

825
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:08,450
S1: show's done. I don't need to like, you know, find

826
00:36:08,450 --> 00:36:10,280
S1: out what happened to them in the future. And the

827
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,110
S1: other one is Fleabag. Like, I thought that had a

828
00:36:12,110 --> 00:36:14,330
S1: nice ending, like had an ending that was really true

829
00:36:14,330 --> 00:36:17,120
S1: to what that idea of. It'll pass from Andrew Scott,

830
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,430
S1: hot priest. Like, just go. Beautiful.

831
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:21,230
S2: Is it the end at the bus stop? And she's like,

832
00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:23,750
S2: I love you. And he's like, it'll pass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

833
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:27,710
S1: One of the best, like romantic, but in a brutally

834
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:29,660
S1: honest way that I can remember in a TV.

835
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:31,190
S2: Show in a while. It's like, this is what happens

836
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:33,469
S2: in life. Really? Yeah, exactly. And then on the other

837
00:36:33,469 --> 00:36:34,760
S2: end of the scale, and this is what I find

838
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,620
S2: so funny because I actually recently rewatched. My wife was

839
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:38,910
S2: watching it and I just walked into the room. But

840
00:36:38,910 --> 00:36:41,190
S2: the sex and the city finale and I talk about,

841
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:42,360
S2: I mean, there's a lot of the running theme here

842
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,270
S2: with HBO, but talk about a finale. That was another

843
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:47,970
S2: really big cultural moment. Like people were fucking hyped. And

844
00:36:47,969 --> 00:36:51,030
S2: obviously that show has done a lot to kind of

845
00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:53,610
S2: tarnish its own legacy in releasing like three pretty bad films.

846
00:36:53,610 --> 00:36:55,890
S2: And then obviously having And Just Like That, the new

847
00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:59,310
S2: series minus Samantha. But again, sex and the city and

848
00:36:59,310 --> 00:37:00,930
S2: I know you have your own thoughts about it, but

849
00:37:00,930 --> 00:37:02,400
S2: it was a groundbreaking series in a lot of ways

850
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,129
S2: for a lot of people. But the series ended up

851
00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:08,640
S2: like basically in like the finale captures how much at

852
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,980
S2: war it was with itself. Like the second last scene

853
00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:13,770
S2: is Carrie finally ending up with big and kind of

854
00:37:13,770 --> 00:37:16,470
S2: giving her this traditional ending, which didn't really feel true

855
00:37:16,469 --> 00:37:18,630
S2: to the character. But then the very last scene is her.

856
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:20,910
S2: Like walking down the road by herself, going to meet

857
00:37:20,910 --> 00:37:22,680
S2: the girls, and she talks about like the most important

858
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,050
S2: relationship is her friends. And it was like the creators,

859
00:37:25,050 --> 00:37:27,300
S2: like Michael Patrick King couldn't. He was like, couldn't bring

860
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:30,390
S2: himself to choose either party. Like hedged his bets. And everyone,

861
00:37:30,390 --> 00:37:32,820
S2: I think, generally felt a bit like, are you like,

862
00:37:32,820 --> 00:37:35,130
S2: you kind of dogged us there, like on either camp. Yeah.

863
00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:37,259
S1: And I think that's interesting for a couple of reasons.

864
00:37:37,260 --> 00:37:39,360
S1: It's a really good example of how a show can

865
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,970
S1: change over time. And so like what the characters would

866
00:37:41,969 --> 00:37:43,950
S1: want at that phase in life is different to the

867
00:37:43,950 --> 00:37:47,130
S1: idea of this show, starting when they're much younger and carefree,

868
00:37:47,130 --> 00:37:49,830
S1: and also how you get shaped by what the audience wants,

869
00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:52,739
S1: like fan service. This is this thing that drives shows,

870
00:37:52,890 --> 00:37:54,960
S1: like there's ways to end a show that is perhaps

871
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,540
S1: more true to your creative vision and true to what

872
00:37:57,540 --> 00:38:00,420
S1: the characters are at. But you're like, are fans that

873
00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:02,069
S1: want that? They want to know who she ends up with.

874
00:38:02,070 --> 00:38:03,779
S1: So we have to give them some of that as well.

875
00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:05,940
S2: That's what's funny about the fan culture now, especially like

876
00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:08,430
S2: I remember reading posts, I know I kept talking about succession,

877
00:38:08,430 --> 00:38:09,900
S2: but it was such a recent finale and such a

878
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:12,810
S2: great one post that I think Jesse Armstrong did a

879
00:38:12,810 --> 00:38:14,700
S2: big sit down with the Guardian, and he was like,

880
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:16,860
S2: we were sitting in the writers room, and we kind

881
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:19,800
S2: of felt like the what we knew in, like the

882
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,130
S2: marketplace of viewers was that people kind of wanted Kendall

883
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,640
S2: to maybe win. That was what they felt from the audience.

884
00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:28,649
S2: And so they kind of tried to game it out

885
00:38:28,650 --> 00:38:30,960
S2: a lot like to try and see like, oh, what

886
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,340
S2: about if we do this? What if we do that?

887
00:38:32,340 --> 00:38:33,810
S2: Because they were kind of almost. And then eventually he

888
00:38:33,810 --> 00:38:35,640
S2: was like, no, we're trying to right now with an

889
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,380
S2: audience in mind like, this is mental. And so they

890
00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:38,969
S2: scrapped it because it never, never really worked in a

891
00:38:38,969 --> 00:38:41,040
S2: way that was believable. But yeah, even at those top

892
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,780
S2: levels where, you know, you've got these writers rooms who

893
00:38:43,020 --> 00:38:45,600
S2: obviously know their show and their characters inside out, it's

894
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,660
S2: very hard once a show becomes so popular and so buzzy,

895
00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:50,790
S2: not to listen to, like what people are saying, what

896
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:51,600
S2: people are wanting.

897
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,910
S1: Should we talk about a couple of others that have

898
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:56,310
S1: not worked? Like, I think Game of Thrones is probably

899
00:38:56,310 --> 00:38:59,520
S1: the clearest example of it being bad and it destroying

900
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,490
S1: the show's reputation. But a couple more that like, I

901
00:39:02,489 --> 00:39:05,070
S1: don't think they went that far, but just totally fumbled

902
00:39:05,070 --> 00:39:06,930
S1: the bag. Were you a lost head?

903
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,000
S2: Well, I didn't really watch lost, but I am aware

904
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,160
S2: almost around the dialogue around the finale.

905
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,200
S1: Yeah, I was really in on lost and I was

906
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,880
S1: in on it, you know, from the era where, like,

907
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,770
S1: you'd watch it on TV, you'd wait week to week

908
00:39:19,770 --> 00:39:21,569
S1: to see what happened. You'd have the big six month

909
00:39:21,570 --> 00:39:23,190
S1: breaks at the end of the season. And it was

910
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:25,680
S1: like an iconic mystery show. It's like there are all

911
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,960
S1: these mysteries, what's going to happen? And everyone had theories

912
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,330
S1: and people would debate them and like websites and forums

913
00:39:30,330 --> 00:39:34,860
S1: and whatever. And basically, like every theory the creators would debunk,

914
00:39:34,860 --> 00:39:36,810
S1: only to get to the end and be like, no,

915
00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:38,700
S1: the thing that we debunked in season one that you

916
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:40,290
S1: all sort of probably thought it was, it was literally

917
00:39:40,290 --> 00:39:43,320
S1: just that. And then it left a lot of mysteries

918
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,170
S1: unsolved as well. So I think people didn't feel like

919
00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:49,290
S1: it gave them the conclusion to this great mystery box

920
00:39:49,290 --> 00:39:51,330
S1: series that they were hoping for. The other one that

921
00:39:51,330 --> 00:39:53,520
S1: I just want to touch on very briefly, Gossip Girl,

922
00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:55,890
S1: you know that I'm a big Gossip Girl head. Uh,

923
00:39:55,890 --> 00:39:58,890
S1: this was hilarious because they revealed who Gossip Girl was,

924
00:39:58,890 --> 00:40:02,100
S1: and it was Dan Humphrey, which made no sense because

925
00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:03,810
S1: he had been the subject of Gossip Girl. He ends

926
00:40:03,810 --> 00:40:06,540
S1: up marrying Serena, who, Gossip Girl like, hounded to a

927
00:40:06,540 --> 00:40:09,839
S1: suicide multiple times. Uh, I still think that show is great.

928
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,120
S1: I think you can enjoy a terrible finale when the

929
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,790
S1: show itself doesn't take itself too seriously. I mean.

930
00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:16,890
S2: I won't hear bad. What about it? Because I may

931
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:19,200
S2: have modeled my personality off Seth for a large portion

932
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,580
S2: of my life. Then I soon moved on to Dan

933
00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:23,580
S2: Humphreys after that. So Dan Humphreys can do no wrong

934
00:40:23,580 --> 00:40:25,469
S2: in my book. And also he's just he's about for

935
00:40:25,469 --> 00:40:27,509
S2: his time. He knew that he had to write about

936
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:29,069
S2: himself in order to be believable.

937
00:40:29,070 --> 00:40:31,290
S1: Yeah, yeah. And it kind of checks out that this like,

938
00:40:31,290 --> 00:40:33,330
S1: guy who didn't make it as an award winning writer

939
00:40:33,330 --> 00:40:36,780
S1: just became a bitchy, anonymous Twitter account, essentially. Um, he's

940
00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:40,360
S1: looking at all of you bitchy, anonymous Twitter accounts. A

941
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,640
S1: couple of other TV things we wanted to touch on

942
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,860
S1: Thomas post the finales discussion. Ripley previewed it last week.

943
00:40:47,860 --> 00:40:49,930
S1: At that stage, I'd only say in the first few

944
00:40:49,930 --> 00:40:52,420
S1: episodes I have now. It seems like a lot of

945
00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:54,520
S1: people have caught up in it. On the weekend, you

946
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,069
S1: were like a little bit, maybe not that into it,

947
00:40:57,070 --> 00:40:58,509
S1: it seemed, but you said you wanted to talk to

948
00:40:58,510 --> 00:41:00,759
S1: me once I'd seen all of the episodes. So what

949
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,100
S1: is your final sort of take on Ripley?

950
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:06,310
S2: I feel like that's backfired because I know you're hyped

951
00:41:06,310 --> 00:41:08,770
S2: on it. Look, I definitely agree that a, I feel

952
00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:11,890
S2: like over the weekend everyone started to watch Ripley. But

953
00:41:11,890 --> 00:41:14,290
S2: I would say again, I reckon from the people I've

954
00:41:14,290 --> 00:41:18,100
S2: spoken to, opinions been really split. Some of my like

955
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:20,920
S2: trusted friends actually had a really big problem with the

956
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,410
S2: black and white thing, which is, you know, which take

957
00:41:23,410 --> 00:41:27,280
S2: from that what you will. Other friends got really into it. Uh, look,

958
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,690
S2: I know you're going to love it because at the

959
00:41:28,690 --> 00:41:32,650
S2: end they go back to 1606 and we see Caravaggio. Uh,

960
00:41:32,650 --> 00:41:34,689
S2: I still I still stand by what I said. I

961
00:41:34,690 --> 00:41:36,880
S2: really liked it. Um, I find it hard to distance

962
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,210
S2: myself from the emotion that I felt for the movie. And, like,

963
00:41:40,210 --> 00:41:42,640
S2: that's a treasured film for me. So I think I

964
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,790
S2: struggled to to distance myself from that when watching it,

965
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,650
S2: but I still think it was really good. And, I mean,

966
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:51,250
S2: I do have a couple of queries about the finale, but,

967
00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:53,080
S2: I mean, I assume you're about to be like, it's

968
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,819
S2: the greatest thing that's happened to me since Oppenheimer.

969
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,410
S1: Yeah, basically, this is exquisite, this TV show. It got

970
00:41:59,410 --> 00:42:02,259
S1: better and better and better. Uh, to me, I actually

971
00:42:02,260 --> 00:42:04,960
S1: went back and rewatched The Talented Mr. Ripley. And look,

972
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,850
S1: I think that's a great film. I love that film.

973
00:42:06,850 --> 00:42:09,190
S1: These two things are trying to do something quite different.

974
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:12,310
S1: I think the film basks in like the first half

975
00:42:12,310 --> 00:42:15,549
S1: of that movie is just how good is the south

976
00:42:15,550 --> 00:42:17,919
S1: of Italy? Let's have a great time with these super

977
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,810
S1: hot people. And then it's like a little bit of

978
00:42:19,810 --> 00:42:21,700
S1: a thriller cat and mouse sort of a thing. This

979
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:23,470
S1: series is like not trying to do any of that.

980
00:42:23,469 --> 00:42:27,890
S1: It's not like obviously like Italy looks. Really interesting on screen,

981
00:42:27,890 --> 00:42:31,220
S1: but it's not about the light and the the sun

982
00:42:31,219 --> 00:42:33,950
S1: drenched beaches in the outfits or anything like that. As

983
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:36,200
S1: much as it's. I think we talked about it last week,

984
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,490
S1: this examination of wealthy people and their desperate desire to

985
00:42:40,489 --> 00:42:44,300
S1: be seen as like, actually very interesting, smart artists and

986
00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:48,860
S1: the way that, like, someone like Ripley is motivated by

987
00:42:48,860 --> 00:42:51,470
S1: being on the outer, by proving that he can mingle

988
00:42:51,469 --> 00:42:55,340
S1: with the best of them and how the minor details

989
00:42:55,340 --> 00:42:59,090
S1: with how he gets away with various murders and things.

990
00:42:59,090 --> 00:43:01,460
S1: Like in the film, you never really see that you

991
00:43:01,460 --> 00:43:04,460
S1: see these inciting incidents, but you don't really get in

992
00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:08,630
S1: detail how Ripley would extricate himself from these situations. What

993
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:10,400
S1: I found so fascinating about this show is the two

994
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,000
S1: episodes where there are two murders, and half the episode

995
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,620
S1: or more is just this, like, painstaking, like a Ripley

996
00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:23,900
S1: attempt to. Cover his tracks, and it's like I had to, like,

997
00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:26,149
S1: look away at some points because it was done in

998
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:28,940
S1: such an interesting way to build up such tension. And

999
00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:33,530
S1: I didn't totally understand the Caravaggio references that kept making

1000
00:43:33,530 --> 00:43:36,110
S1: throughout the show, until you kind of get closer and

1001
00:43:36,110 --> 00:43:38,060
S1: closer towards the end and you understand that there's a

1002
00:43:38,060 --> 00:43:41,480
S1: couple of things going on. I think, like Caravaggio, this

1003
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,629
S1: artist who relied on patronage, who was getting screwed over

1004
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:47,149
S1: by the powers that be in Italy, who was accused

1005
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:50,600
S1: of homosexuality at a time where, you know, that wasn't allowed.

1006
00:43:50,780 --> 00:43:53,990
S1: And certainly contemporary historians think that that was a big

1007
00:43:53,989 --> 00:43:56,149
S1: part of the subtext of what was going on. That

1008
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:58,219
S1: is like an obvious parallel to Ripley and what he's

1009
00:43:58,219 --> 00:44:00,260
S1: dealing with. And I think the other part of it

1010
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:02,060
S1: goes to the black and white of it. All right.

1011
00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:04,280
S1: And I get it's a little bit pretentious, and I

1012
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:05,810
S1: can understand that some people think of it as a

1013
00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:09,200
S1: turn off. But when something's in black and white and

1014
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,140
S1: you just got light and shade and you've got blackness

1015
00:44:12,140 --> 00:44:14,660
S1: and light of the two contrasts, and the show goes

1016
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:16,939
S1: out of its way to make that point about Caravaggio

1017
00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:20,210
S1: a lot, that his work was pioneering in how it

1018
00:44:20,210 --> 00:44:22,610
S1: looked at the way that, like light is used to

1019
00:44:22,610 --> 00:44:25,310
S1: highlight certain things and put other things in the shadow.

1020
00:44:25,310 --> 00:44:27,410
S1: On one hand, that is just the creators of the

1021
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:30,290
S1: show being like, we know our art history. Yeah. And also,

1022
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:32,150
S1: and I think even they took it to the next

1023
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:35,450
S1: level when there's this scene where Ripley is trying to

1024
00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:37,820
S1: disguise who he is and he's not quite sure how

1025
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:39,290
S1: to get away with it, and then he has this

1026
00:44:39,290 --> 00:44:42,350
S1: flashback to Caravaggio. It's all in the light. And he

1027
00:44:42,350 --> 00:44:44,840
S1: does this thing where he, like, covers the curtain and

1028
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,330
S1: sets up the light. That's like a nod to Caravaggio.

1029
00:44:47,330 --> 00:44:49,340
S1: But I also think this is like some real directors

1030
00:44:49,340 --> 00:44:51,560
S1: on their own bullshit, where they're like, this is what

1031
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,290
S1: we do with every scene we construct. You guys just

1032
00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:55,940
S1: watch the show and you're like, it looks pretty nice.

1033
00:44:55,940 --> 00:44:58,310
S1: And it's kind of, well, this is how we construct light.

1034
00:44:58,310 --> 00:45:00,380
S1: And we're showing you that because we want to prove

1035
00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:02,660
S1: how smart we are. And I can understand that that's

1036
00:45:02,660 --> 00:45:05,330
S1: pretentious and whatever. But I also think to like do

1037
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:07,850
S1: that little hat tip is pretty cool. And then the

1038
00:45:07,850 --> 00:45:10,549
S1: other bit of this show that I think just elevates

1039
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:13,939
S1: to this, like top tier in terms of its storytelling

1040
00:45:13,940 --> 00:45:17,690
S1: and how it wraps up all the plot machinations. There

1041
00:45:17,690 --> 00:45:21,290
S1: was multiple times, particularly as we got closer towards the end.

1042
00:45:21,290 --> 00:45:24,140
S1: I was like, what about that? There's a plot hole here,

1043
00:45:24,140 --> 00:45:27,799
S1: but what if he just talks to that guy? Ripley

1044
00:45:27,830 --> 00:45:30,560
S1: deals with them all one by one, and it makes

1045
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,440
S1: you think you thought. Audience member you were smarter than us. No,

1046
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,570
S1: no no no. We're actually, like, two steps ahead of

1047
00:45:35,570 --> 00:45:38,390
S1: you the way Ripley was in this entire series. I'm like.

1048
00:45:39,020 --> 00:45:40,790
S1: What else do I want from television, man, I.

1049
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:42,950
S2: Would say, but then one thing that did annoy me

1050
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:45,200
S2: was he has a conversation, I think the finale with

1051
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,570
S2: one of the Italian policemen, and he's basically he's spoken

1052
00:45:47,570 --> 00:45:49,460
S2: to him before as Dickie Greenleaf, but now he's got

1053
00:45:49,460 --> 00:45:53,339
S2: a beard and pushed his hair back. In the same

1054
00:45:53,340 --> 00:45:55,890
S2: we're talking about like there's no amount of light and shade.

1055
00:45:55,890 --> 00:45:57,299
S2: That doesn't make you think that that's not the same

1056
00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:59,730
S2: guy you spoke to, like two weeks ago. Yeah. Like, look,

1057
00:45:59,910 --> 00:46:02,670
S2: I'm being facetious, but I see what you're saying. And,

1058
00:46:02,670 --> 00:46:05,130
S2: I mean, look, I was really excited to see John Malkovich.

1059
00:46:05,130 --> 00:46:07,410
S1: I know who played Ripley in Ripley's game, so. So

1060
00:46:07,410 --> 00:46:09,030
S1: he kind of pops up sort of as a little

1061
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:10,260
S1: bit of a as a hat tip to that.

1062
00:46:10,260 --> 00:46:12,000
S2: And then it's funny because we spoke about this earlier

1063
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,340
S2: when talking about finales, but obviously we are kind of

1064
00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:16,379
S2: engineered now to always be liking what's next. And already

1065
00:46:16,380 --> 00:46:18,840
S2: people are like, Ripley, season two obviously is going to

1066
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,299
S2: be amazing. He's going to be this new version of

1067
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:23,070
S2: Thomas Ripley, and he will be teaming up because I

1068
00:46:23,070 --> 00:46:25,920
S2: think in the books John Malkovich's character, they become literal

1069
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,739
S2: partners in crime. Absolutely. So I mean, look, that's exciting.

1070
00:46:28,860 --> 00:46:30,270
S1: That would be really cool. That'd be really cool. And

1071
00:46:30,270 --> 00:46:32,430
S1: I think Steve Zaillian, who signed on when this was

1072
00:46:32,430 --> 00:46:35,940
S1: originally not a Netflix show attached to the showcase in

1073
00:46:35,940 --> 00:46:38,490
S1: the US. I think the idea was to adapt all

1074
00:46:38,489 --> 00:46:40,680
S1: the Ripley books, so I'd be into that. But I

1075
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,790
S1: think the reason I just want to talk about it

1076
00:46:41,790 --> 00:46:43,110
S1: again is now that I've seen it, I wanted to

1077
00:46:43,110 --> 00:46:45,210
S1: unpack it with you, but also I want to implore

1078
00:46:45,210 --> 00:46:47,820
S1: people to watch it. I know it's like not quite

1079
00:46:47,820 --> 00:46:49,410
S1: the same as a lot of other Netflix stuff. It's

1080
00:46:49,410 --> 00:46:51,960
S1: a hard one to second screen like, I think a

1081
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,910
S1: lot of Netflix stuff. Yeah, a lot of Netflix stuff

1082
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:56,520
S1: is made for. It's fun, it's entertaining. It's a bit

1083
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,350
S1: like you can like, look after your kid, you can

1084
00:46:58,350 --> 00:47:00,750
S1: eat dinner, you can, you know, do the laundry. You

1085
00:47:00,750 --> 00:47:03,390
S1: can check Instagram and still keep up with what's going on.

1086
00:47:03,390 --> 00:47:05,640
S1: This is one that you really need to settle into.

1087
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,500
S1: I do think it's worth it.

1088
00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:09,689
S2: It's really funny. Like all the stuff I've been watching

1089
00:47:09,690 --> 00:47:11,700
S2: lately is very much not a second screen show like

1090
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:13,799
S2: Shogun Khan. Second screen. It got to be reading and

1091
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,130
S2: it's funny with Ripley, I really need to watch it

1092
00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:20,190
S2: with the subtitles on. And originally we got screeners and

1093
00:47:20,190 --> 00:47:22,080
S2: so I don't you probably wouldn't impact you, but I

1094
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,340
S2: have to watch the subtitles on because I have to

1095
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:24,570
S2: have it down low so I don't wake up. My

1096
00:47:24,570 --> 00:47:26,759
S2: kid screeners didn't have.

1097
00:47:26,969 --> 00:47:27,689
S1: Subtitles.

1098
00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:30,420
S2: Yet because I really. Yeah, yeah. So I had to, like,

1099
00:47:30,420 --> 00:47:31,860
S2: always watch it when he was like out of the house.

1100
00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:34,590
S2: But I think it'll be I think season two, I

1101
00:47:34,590 --> 00:47:36,210
S2: do reckon people are into it now. Season two will

1102
00:47:36,210 --> 00:47:38,340
S2: be big and it'll be exciting because hopefully we'll be

1103
00:47:38,340 --> 00:47:40,350
S2: back by then. I explained to her who Caravaggio is

1104
00:47:40,350 --> 00:47:42,720
S2: and like what his whole vibe was. So that'll be good.

1105
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,510
S2: But yeah, look, I if I went too hard last week,

1106
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:47,370
S2: I don't want to, you know, go for like J.

1107
00:47:47,370 --> 00:47:50,520
S2: Cole and retract it. But I still love the show.

1108
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:51,540
S2: I just love the movie too.

1109
00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:53,549
S1: Yeah. Well, you mentioned Shogun, which is the other one,

1110
00:47:53,550 --> 00:47:56,910
S1: and I actually kind of love a show that forces

1111
00:47:56,910 --> 00:47:58,919
S1: you to be engaged. Shogun does it not just because

1112
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,529
S1: of its storytelling and its acting, but like 90% of

1113
00:48:01,530 --> 00:48:03,900
S1: the shows in Japanese. So if you are not watching it,

1114
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:05,700
S1: you're missing out. And that can be a little bit

1115
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:08,640
S1: annoying in our world where we are like on demand,

1116
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,920
S1: a lot more messaging people, but it's kind of nice.

1117
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,300
S1: I made this sounds like a bit psycho to say,

1118
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:14,550
S1: but it's like the closest to meditation that I come

1119
00:48:14,550 --> 00:48:16,920
S1: to is having to put my phone away to just

1120
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,410
S1: look at subtitles and enjoy your show for what it is.

1121
00:48:19,410 --> 00:48:21,750
S1: But that is the insane way that our brains work

1122
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:22,290
S1: right now. I kind of.

1123
00:48:22,290 --> 00:48:24,960
S2: Agree with you. I really enjoying the reading aspect of

1124
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,290
S2: showing and I mean like the show is not that

1125
00:48:28,290 --> 00:48:31,350
S2: easy to watch. Uh, we're episode eight aired this week.

1126
00:48:31,350 --> 00:48:33,239
S2: I think it's been a slow burn for people. People

1127
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:34,980
S2: in the States seems to be eating it up. But

1128
00:48:34,980 --> 00:48:38,070
S2: the last two episodes particularly, I'm like fucking like locked

1129
00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:39,630
S2: in for the last two now did.

1130
00:48:39,630 --> 00:48:43,439
S1: The initial reviews were kind of like split between is

1131
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,050
S1: this the new Game of Thrones? Is this succession the

1132
00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:48,209
S1: creators and interviews have said we thought a lot more

1133
00:48:48,210 --> 00:48:52,529
S1: about succession. I get both of the comparisons. It slowly

1134
00:48:52,530 --> 00:48:54,149
S1: started to dawn on me that one of the most

1135
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:57,150
S1: succession elements of this show is this question of like

1136
00:48:57,150 --> 00:49:00,120
S1: fail sons, and that comes up again and again in this.

1137
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:01,770
S1: I know people who might not be up to date

1138
00:49:01,770 --> 00:49:03,660
S1: with it don't want to give away too much in

1139
00:49:03,660 --> 00:49:06,390
S1: terms of what actually happens. But right from the start,

1140
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:10,920
S1: there is this generational element, these generation of Japanese feudal

1141
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,510
S1: warlords who have built their power by amazing strategic acumen

1142
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:18,959
S1: and fighting fights, and being both great soldiers and great politicians,

1143
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,120
S1: and then the next generation who've just grown up in

1144
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,219
S1: the sort of the wealth of it, trying to prove

1145
00:49:23,219 --> 00:49:26,850
S1: themselves and not doing a great job. That element in both,

1146
00:49:26,850 --> 00:49:30,300
S1: like it's cutting satire of that kind of person, but

1147
00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:34,259
S1: also sometimes it's very dark. Humor is really working for me.

1148
00:49:35,070 --> 00:49:38,610
S1: The Game of Thrones bits exists, but it's not one

1149
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:41,550
S1: for like giant battle scenes. It's not one for like

1150
00:49:41,550 --> 00:49:44,850
S1: heaps of very literal talk about who's aligning with who.

1151
00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:47,790
S1: So much of this show is what is unsaid. Like

1152
00:49:47,790 --> 00:49:50,460
S1: there are these long scenes where someone just like making

1153
00:49:50,489 --> 00:49:54,210
S1: tea for someone else, and that is displaying some kind

1154
00:49:54,210 --> 00:49:56,910
S1: of like power imbalance there. But then I think it

1155
00:49:57,210 --> 00:50:01,860
S1: has just enough of some faster moving, high octane stuff

1156
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:03,600
S1: to keep you like the heart racing.

1157
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,900
S2: Well, yeah, especially this most recent episode, episode eight. I mean,

1158
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:08,700
S2: obviously I haven't watched Game of Thrones. Sounds like dog shit,

1159
00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:10,800
S2: but obviously I know it was very graphic and stuff,

1160
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,989
S2: but there's so much in Shogun is like the threat

1161
00:50:12,989 --> 00:50:15,630
S2: or discussion of violence, and there's maybe like 3 or 4,

1162
00:50:15,630 --> 00:50:18,660
S2: like really, really gruesome moments that come out of nowhere.

1163
00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:21,240
S2: But they're they're like used sparingly. And in this most

1164
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,850
S2: recent episode, we see one and it's like it makes

1165
00:50:23,850 --> 00:50:25,350
S2: a lot of sense why it happens, but it's amazing

1166
00:50:25,350 --> 00:50:29,069
S2: as well. Like, it's it's quite gruesome and quite gripping. Uh,

1167
00:50:29,070 --> 00:50:32,550
S2: I definitely think it has huge succession vibes. Like even in,

1168
00:50:32,580 --> 00:50:34,859
S2: you know, we saw Tanaka who's like, you know, let's

1169
00:50:34,860 --> 00:50:36,930
S2: essentially say the Logan of the show, he's got a

1170
00:50:36,930 --> 00:50:38,760
S2: son that like, pulled a pretty Kendall move in the

1171
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,799
S2: most recent episode. I won't say any more, but yeah,

1172
00:50:41,250 --> 00:50:44,580
S2: the power, you know, struggle. And I just have found it.

1173
00:50:44,580 --> 00:50:47,160
S2: So like, it's one of those shows, four episodes, you're like,

1174
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,660
S2: what the fuck is going on? And then once it

1175
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:50,819
S2: all clicks, you're just like, so invested now I can't

1176
00:50:50,820 --> 00:50:52,360
S2: wait for. This week's episode.

1177
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:54,400
S1: Yeah. And the way that it has done that, there

1178
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,700
S1: was a scene a few episodes ago where a big

1179
00:50:58,090 --> 00:51:01,779
S1: group of people are ambushed. Right? And instead of showing

1180
00:51:01,780 --> 00:51:05,050
S1: the visceral action, you just see the aftermath of it.

1181
00:51:05,050 --> 00:51:07,270
S1: And that's like a bit of a bold move because,

1182
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:09,700
S1: you know, post Game of Thrones, people love action scenes.

1183
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:11,890
S1: I think Shogun has been billed as like a Game

1184
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:13,990
S1: of Thrones, but set in like feudal Japan. And then

1185
00:51:13,989 --> 00:51:15,670
S1: just like, nah, man, we don't need to show you

1186
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:18,969
S1: that because this show is not just about the action,

1187
00:51:18,969 --> 00:51:22,060
S1: it's about the politics and the intrigue behind it all

1188
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:27,150
S1: as well. It is. It's. Yeah, it's it's moving to

1189
00:51:27,150 --> 00:51:30,220
S1: a conclusion. There's only two episodes left. There's 9 in

1190
00:51:30,219 --> 00:51:34,940
S1: 10 to go. I kind of don't. Have any idea

1191
00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:36,500
S1: what could happen. Like, I've not read the book, I've

1192
00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:38,989
S1: not seen the original show, but one guy who does

1193
00:51:38,989 --> 00:51:41,810
S1: seem to know everything that's happening is his main character,

1194
00:51:41,810 --> 00:51:45,500
S1: Tora Naga, Hiroyuki Sanada. And one thing that I started

1195
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:47,450
S1: to bump on a little bit and I want to

1196
00:51:47,450 --> 00:51:49,430
S1: get your thoughts on this, is so many of the

1197
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:51,290
S1: characters are fumbling in the dark. They don't have the

1198
00:51:51,290 --> 00:51:56,210
S1: master plan, uh, including, you know, the fan favorite John Blackthorne,

1199
00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:58,790
S1: played by Cosmo Jarvis is just like grunting and yelling

1200
00:51:58,790 --> 00:52:02,060
S1: and trying to get back to his ship. Uh, but Tanaka,

1201
00:52:02,060 --> 00:52:05,870
S1: he seems to be like 14 steps ahead of everyone else.

1202
00:52:05,989 --> 00:52:08,750
S1: I enjoy him, I think he's great. Hiroyuki Sanada is, like,

1203
00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:11,150
S1: just absolutely reveling in this role. He's doing such a

1204
00:52:11,150 --> 00:52:13,100
S1: good job, but a little bit of it is starting

1205
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:17,210
S1: to be like, okay, so if we know that he's

1206
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:20,750
S1: so far ahead of everything, presumably he's going to win.

1207
00:52:20,750 --> 00:52:22,490
S1: Does that take in a little bit of the tension

1208
00:52:22,489 --> 00:52:23,870
S1: out of where things are going?

1209
00:52:24,020 --> 00:52:25,790
S2: Yeah, I do, and it almost goes back to what

1210
00:52:25,790 --> 00:52:29,510
S2: we were talking about before. Like, obviously his main goal

1211
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:31,160
S2: in this season is to kind of unite this faction

1212
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,200
S2: and become the shogun of Japan. And so I do

1213
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,990
S2: feel like that is inevitable because again, I'm like, well,

1214
00:52:35,989 --> 00:52:38,990
S2: this show has been such a breakout success. Like, obviously

1215
00:52:38,989 --> 00:52:40,400
S2: we will get a season two and that season two

1216
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,980
S2: will probably be him either, like as Shogun, trying to

1217
00:52:42,980 --> 00:52:45,260
S2: hold on to power or whatever happens next. So I

1218
00:52:45,260 --> 00:52:48,350
S2: do feel like maybe it's becoming obvious where it's going

1219
00:52:48,350 --> 00:52:50,750
S2: to end up, but still, like, I'm kind of happy

1220
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:53,509
S2: to sit along and see, um, it's funny, it feels

1221
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:56,420
S2: I'm almost getting like the weird succession throwbacks where watching Tanaka,

1222
00:52:56,420 --> 00:52:57,950
S2: I'm like, man, this guy's got to be a lock

1223
00:52:57,950 --> 00:52:59,899
S2: for an Emmy and a globe next year. Like, not

1224
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:02,029
S2: many performances on TV that that are rivaled that I

1225
00:53:02,030 --> 00:53:03,230
S2: think in this year to come.

1226
00:53:03,230 --> 00:53:05,600
S1: I completely agree. And I think like the the character

1227
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,550
S1: of Mariko is, is doing a great job as well.

1228
00:53:07,550 --> 00:53:10,340
S1: I think there's a lot of just really good acting

1229
00:53:10,340 --> 00:53:12,560
S1: performances as well as the writing going on and.

1230
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,239
S2: So much good luck. What we we know we love this,

1231
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,490
S2: like facial acting so much good silent acting because there

1232
00:53:16,489 --> 00:53:18,380
S2: is like the scenes are not very dialogue heavy. Like

1233
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:20,420
S2: this is not like the fucking West Wing. Yeah, yeah.

1234
00:53:20,420 --> 00:53:22,700
S2: So like there's so much said when there's like not

1235
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,969
S2: much said, um. So yeah, I think I understand if

1236
00:53:25,969 --> 00:53:27,440
S2: you haven't got into Shogun yet and I know it's

1237
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,180
S2: like eight episodes and they're dense like the most recent

1238
00:53:29,180 --> 00:53:31,280
S2: one was like over an hour. I still really think

1239
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,050
S2: that people should just, like, commit.

1240
00:53:33,050 --> 00:53:35,120
S1: Well, there's a couple of other things to recommend, even

1241
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,510
S1: though that was kind of an extended recommendation. Uh, little segment.

1242
00:53:38,510 --> 00:53:41,750
S1: But our regular Impress Your Friends is back where we

1243
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:44,540
S1: recommend something we watch, listened to, read, or consumed in

1244
00:53:44,540 --> 00:53:46,730
S1: the past week. Mine is another TV show. It is

1245
00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:51,529
S1: called The Sympathizer. It drops on HBO in America on Sunday.

1246
00:53:51,530 --> 00:53:54,620
S1: So to be here in Australia on Binge on Monday afternoon,

1247
00:53:54,620 --> 00:53:58,250
S1: it's based on the 2015 Pulitzer Prize winning book by

1248
00:53:58,250 --> 00:54:00,950
S1: Viet Thanh Nguyen. The show has been adapted by Park

1249
00:54:00,950 --> 00:54:03,350
S1: Chan wook and Don McKellar. Park Chan wook is the

1250
00:54:03,350 --> 00:54:05,600
S1: director of one of my favorite films in recent years,

1251
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,680
S1: Decision to Leave. Also Oldboy, a bunch of wonderful Korean films.

1252
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,529
S1: He's worked in TV as well. He adapted John le

1253
00:54:12,530 --> 00:54:15,259
S1: Carré's Little Drummer Girl a few years ago. Uh, so

1254
00:54:15,260 --> 00:54:17,270
S1: the story is set in the 70s, and it's based

1255
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:20,630
S1: on the story. There's one soldier, a North Vietnamese plant.

1256
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:23,629
S1: He's a spy in the South Vietnam army. He's forced

1257
00:54:23,630 --> 00:54:25,730
S1: to flee to the US with the fall of Saigon

1258
00:54:25,940 --> 00:54:28,160
S1: at the end of the Vietnam War. And he's living

1259
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,000
S1: with a group of South Vietnamese, I guess, refugees in

1260
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,700
S1: in the States, but he's continuing to spy on them

1261
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:37,279
S1: for the North Vietnamese, for the Viet Cong. So he's

1262
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,160
S1: struggling between like, his loyalties and trying to adapt in

1263
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,489
S1: this country. So many layers of like being a migrant,

1264
00:54:43,489 --> 00:54:46,430
S1: being a migrant in a, uh, from a, you know,

1265
00:54:46,430 --> 00:54:49,280
S1: racially and culturally marginalized group in America. And then within

1266
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,279
S1: that feeling like you're a traitor because you're actually part

1267
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,680
S1: of the group that sent these people there. Uh, it

1268
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,340
S1: stars Sean Day as the main character is actually Australian. Uh,

1269
00:54:58,340 --> 00:55:01,700
S1: he was in Ronnie Chang's International student, Hungry Ghosts, last

1270
00:55:01,700 --> 00:55:03,560
S1: King of the cross. He was in the live action

1271
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,290
S1: Cowboy Bebop. He is really, really good in this. It's a.

1272
00:55:06,590 --> 00:55:07,430
S2: Huge awesome.

1273
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:10,370
S1: Win for for him. And he's alongside none other than

1274
00:55:10,370 --> 00:55:13,040
S1: Robert Downey Jr and Robert Downey Jr. I don't want

1275
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:14,779
S1: to give too much away because what he does in

1276
00:55:14,780 --> 00:55:18,379
S1: the show is pretty fascinating, pretty unique in terms of

1277
00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:21,920
S1: what he's playing. It's really interesting. Does he do more.

1278
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,120
S2: Than he did in Oppenheimer?

1279
00:55:23,330 --> 00:55:25,250
S1: Yeah, he does significantly more. I think if you're like,

1280
00:55:25,250 --> 00:55:27,140
S1: I like Robert Downey Jr. But I thought he was overhyped.

1281
00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:30,770
S1: And Oppenheimer this is like astonishing. The peak of of

1282
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:31,730
S1: I think some of his acting.

1283
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:34,189
S2: Yeah I feel like it's been getting really hot and

1284
00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:37,700
S2: HBO you know hits and misses lately, but I'm keen

1285
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:38,390
S2: to see it. Yeah.

1286
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:39,169
S1: What have you got for us?

1287
00:55:39,620 --> 00:55:42,140
S2: Uh, I've actually had another long read. Oh, I know coming.

1288
00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:44,359
S2: The Long Read guy in Mel's absence. This one's from

1289
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,180
S2: the New Yorker. It's a recent one. It's from last week. Uh,

1290
00:55:47,180 --> 00:55:50,509
S2: and it's by Andrew Ohagan. The Scottish author wrote mayflies.

1291
00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:52,669
S2: It's actually got another book coming out this year. Really

1292
00:55:52,670 --> 00:55:55,700
S2: good writer, but it's called the title is Scooter Braun

1293
00:55:55,700 --> 00:55:57,799
S2: and the Twilight of the Music Manager. Um, and I

1294
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,390
S2: thought was really interesting because I've been kind of, like,

1295
00:55:59,390 --> 00:56:02,150
S2: quietly fascinated with the fall, I guess, the rise and

1296
00:56:02,150 --> 00:56:04,370
S2: fall of Scooter Braun, you know, as, as lots of

1297
00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:07,610
S2: people know to the stars. Yeah. Like Bieber, he kind

1298
00:56:07,610 --> 00:56:10,640
S2: of likes credited with, you know, finding Justin Bieber and

1299
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,500
S2: Ariana Grande and all these, like, pop stars that we

1300
00:56:12,500 --> 00:56:14,540
S2: know now. And Scooter Braun was kind of like the brand.

1301
00:56:14,540 --> 00:56:16,969
S2: And of course, he had a very high profile, um,

1302
00:56:16,969 --> 00:56:18,770
S2: you know, public falling out with Taylor Swift after he

1303
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:22,790
S2: basically bought her masters. And this article basically charts the, the,

1304
00:56:22,790 --> 00:56:24,680
S2: you know, it's called The Twilight of the Music Manager,

1305
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,780
S2: and it charts the role of these, like, kind of

1306
00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:30,080
S2: career creators throughout time. So it starts like it goes

1307
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,060
S2: from like, you know, Colonel Parker with Elvis, who we

1308
00:56:32,060 --> 00:56:33,560
S2: saw in, you know, the Elvis film and then it talks.

1309
00:56:33,710 --> 00:56:35,750
S2: Brian Epstein with the Beatles and all the way to

1310
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:38,870
S2: Scooter Braun, and it talks about how the industry has

1311
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:42,080
S2: changed in such a way that these people who, like, could,

1312
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,990
S2: you know, make or break stars are no longer needed.

1313
00:56:44,989 --> 00:56:47,540
S2: And Scooter Braun was perhaps the last. Great. That's really interesting.

1314
00:56:47,989 --> 00:56:49,430
S2: So it was. Yeah, it was interesting.

1315
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,819
S1: I was like, sold his company to some South Korean, like, music.

1316
00:56:52,969 --> 00:56:54,560
S2: Yeah, I think he's basically like, you know, his brand

1317
00:56:54,590 --> 00:56:55,520
S2: has been tarnished and.

1318
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,069
S1: It's like a middle tier bureaucrat in another company.

1319
00:56:58,070 --> 00:57:00,469
S2: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that was a good long read.

1320
00:57:00,710 --> 00:57:02,719
S2: And you know, there's so much good TV and stuff out.

1321
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:04,010
S2: But I thought he wanted to tap out. And you

1322
00:57:04,010 --> 00:57:06,350
S2: were sick of reading Shogun then? This is good. Yeah.

1323
00:57:06,350 --> 00:57:10,370
S1: Hard to read that whilst watching Shogun or Ripley. Yeah. Um,

1324
00:57:10,370 --> 00:57:12,350
S1: but maybe I don't know if you're doing a rewatches

1325
00:57:12,350 --> 00:57:15,890
S1: of curb. You could also read that on your second screen, correct? Yes. Thomas,

1326
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:17,420
S1: that was great. Thanks so much, man. Perfect.

1327
00:57:17,420 --> 00:57:18,020
S2: Thanks for having me.

1328
00:57:21,250 --> 00:57:24,190
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Chai Wang.

1329
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,770
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1330
00:57:26,770 --> 00:57:29,290
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1331
00:57:29,290 --> 00:57:31,570
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with

1332
00:57:31,570 --> 00:57:34,300
S1: a friend! I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!