1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,000 S1: Hi, I'm Odessa Blayne, executive producer of the f w 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,440 S1: Leadership Series podcast. This season we're doing something a little 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,600 S1: different putting your leadership questions to Helen at the end 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,400 S1: of each episode. It's a chance to ask Helen what's 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,440 S1: on your mind, your workplace dilemmas, conundrums, or pet hates. 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,920 S1: We love voice notes. Or you can send us your 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,320 S1: written questions at hello at women.com. We'll put the link 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,440 S1: in the show notes. Enjoy the show. 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,559 S2: Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of F W. 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,440 S2: I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,080 S2: edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018 I launched my 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,200 S2: own business. F W is dedicated to helping women navigate 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,280 S2: their working lives. But I've made my share of mistakes, 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,000 S2: especially as a leader. In this series, I go in 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,040 S2: search of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,660 S2: the latest thinking on how to be a great leader 17 00:01:01,660 --> 00:01:04,459 S2: and return to the tried and true methods to better 18 00:01:04,459 --> 00:01:11,260 S2: understand what works and in what situations. This episode I'm 19 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:15,860 S2: talking to Natalie Wilde. Natalie has spent 23 years working 20 00:01:15,860 --> 00:01:19,140 S2: across the Queensland Public Service. I got to know her 21 00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:22,660 S2: during an intense period. We worked together to create a 22 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:25,740 S2: program that would help women re-enter the workforce after a 23 00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:28,980 S2: career break. Nat is a natural leader. I was struck 24 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:32,300 S2: by her ability to navigate a complex web of stakeholders 25 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:35,619 S2: and simply get stuff done. In this episode, we talk 26 00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:39,539 S2: about owning ambition, the secret to managing stakeholders, and why 27 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:48,620 S2: she describes 85% of her job as leading through ambiguity. Natalie, 28 00:01:48,620 --> 00:01:51,940 S2: thank you for joining me on the podcast today. You 29 00:01:51,940 --> 00:01:55,860 S2: have spent 23 years in the Queensland public Service. That's 30 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:58,030 S2: an awful lot of time to be working for the 31 00:01:58,030 --> 00:02:01,470 S2: people of Queensland. For somebody who's got no idea what 32 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:04,070 S2: that means, can you talk a little bit about what 33 00:02:04,070 --> 00:02:06,230 S2: your typical day is like? 34 00:02:06,430 --> 00:02:08,750 S3: Yeah, no thank you. Um, and look, if only there 35 00:02:08,750 --> 00:02:10,830 S3: was a typical day. So I think every day and 36 00:02:10,910 --> 00:02:13,150 S3: you'd probably hear this a lot from people, certainly in 37 00:02:13,190 --> 00:02:15,590 S3: exec roles. Is that what you think you're going to 38 00:02:15,590 --> 00:02:16,990 S3: do at the beginning of the day is not what 39 00:02:16,990 --> 00:02:18,550 S3: you end up doing by the end of it, and 40 00:02:18,550 --> 00:02:21,510 S3: that's fine. That's what keeps it interesting. Um, I think look, 41 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:25,030 S3: for me, my week is a combination of meeting with 42 00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:28,710 S3: my executive team because without them there is no, you know, 43 00:02:28,750 --> 00:02:31,030 S3: nothing gets done. This isn't just all about me. I 44 00:02:31,030 --> 00:02:33,989 S3: work very much with my team and through them, they 45 00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:36,150 S3: then work with their team. So it's really important that 46 00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:37,990 S3: we're all on the same page and know what it 47 00:02:37,990 --> 00:02:40,870 S3: is we want to do. Um, so there's meetings with them, 48 00:02:40,870 --> 00:02:43,669 S3: obviously meet with the minister regularly during the week, and 49 00:02:43,669 --> 00:02:45,470 S3: we talk through the things that are top of mind 50 00:02:45,470 --> 00:02:47,190 S3: for her. And then the things that she's wanting me 51 00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:50,190 S3: to do at a department level that can support with, um, 52 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:52,670 S3: with the things that she needs to get done. Spend 53 00:02:52,830 --> 00:02:55,790 S3: time also meeting with my colleagues. So again, with government, 54 00:02:55,790 --> 00:02:58,450 S3: it's really about how you connect up with others and 55 00:02:58,450 --> 00:03:00,930 S3: work with them to get things done. Over the last 56 00:03:00,970 --> 00:03:02,890 S3: probably six or so months, I've been traveling a lot, 57 00:03:02,930 --> 00:03:06,730 S3: so getting out, I've got a regional presence across the state. 58 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:10,530 S3: It's about 14 odd offices and it's really for me, 59 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:13,290 S3: that's where I learn the most. I'm somebody that learns 60 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,090 S3: by talking, listening, turning up. I'm not really big on 61 00:03:17,090 --> 00:03:20,250 S3: reading to be informed. I'd rather have a conversation with somebody. 62 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:22,850 S3: So for me, then meeting with the regional staff is 63 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:24,890 S3: something I've been doing over the last six or so months. 64 00:03:24,889 --> 00:03:27,049 S3: So that's been great. Gone to places I would never 65 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:29,690 S3: have dreamed of in very small planes that I'm keen 66 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:32,930 S3: not to repeat. But yeah, that's pretty much. Yeah. There 67 00:03:32,930 --> 00:03:35,770 S3: is no typical day, but lots of um, yeah, for 68 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:38,410 S3: me and it's also just what's the issue that's top 69 00:03:38,410 --> 00:03:40,370 S3: of mind for today and a bit of that fire 70 00:03:40,370 --> 00:03:44,290 S3: fighting is what goes on quite regularly at these CEO levels. 71 00:03:44,530 --> 00:03:46,570 S2: So I would have imagined you would have been a, 72 00:03:46,770 --> 00:03:49,210 S2: you know, roll your sleeves up, do the work kind 73 00:03:49,250 --> 00:03:52,050 S2: of person for a vast amount of those 23 years. 74 00:03:52,290 --> 00:03:54,900 S2: But this sounds like a job where you're not doing 75 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:59,660 S2: the doing. You're kind of checking in. Setting the guardrails 76 00:03:59,660 --> 00:04:03,020 S2: or the vision. Um, and really making sure that everybody 77 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:06,260 S2: else is supported in doing their jobs is that. Has 78 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:08,660 S2: that been an interesting and difficult transition for you, or 79 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,220 S2: have you really enjoyed that kind of leadership role? 80 00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:13,940 S3: I've always said from sort of fairly early age, if 81 00:04:13,940 --> 00:04:17,180 S3: I'm doing it, I'm leading it. I have accepted that. Obviously, 82 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:19,060 S3: in order to get to leadership roles, you need to 83 00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:20,979 S3: work with and then follow others. But I was pretty 84 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:23,540 S3: keen to sort of be in a leadership role as 85 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:26,540 S3: soon as I could. Um, I really enjoy that. Um, 86 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:28,540 S3: and for me, your use of the word guardrail is 87 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:31,460 S3: exactly what I talk about. I also talk about directing traffic. 88 00:04:31,460 --> 00:04:34,180 S3: It's not it's, you know, and it's really about, okay, look, 89 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:36,100 S3: I think we should be doing this given the issue. 90 00:04:36,260 --> 00:04:38,060 S3: As an exec team, what do we think about that? 91 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:41,060 S3: So it's less about it's not about dictating to people 92 00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:43,940 S3: what they're doing. It's very much that team environment. That's 93 00:04:43,940 --> 00:04:46,260 S3: how I prefer to work. I'm one of those people 94 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:48,820 S3: that like to bounce ideas off. So I'll say, okay, look, 95 00:04:48,820 --> 00:04:51,340 S3: I think it's this. What do you think? We'll sort 96 00:04:51,339 --> 00:04:54,120 S3: of war room it quickly and then move on. So 97 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,360 S3: quick decisions are good ones in my mind. 98 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,840 S2: So many women struggle with the idea of owning that 99 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,400 S2: they want to be the leader. They kind of either 100 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,400 S2: pretend they don't really or they kind of go, oops, 101 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,080 S2: I became the leader. It's, it's, it's, it's a little 102 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,440 S2: bit unusual to have someone like you say, actually, I've 103 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,320 S2: always wanted to be the leader. Um, if I'm doing it, 104 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,400 S2: I'm leading it. Talk to me a bit about how 105 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,200 S2: you came to realize that that is the way you 106 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,119 S2: are and that you're okay just owning it. 107 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,400 S3: Yeah. It's, um, it's an interesting one. I've been asked 108 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,760 S3: this before as well. Um, when I first became a 109 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,000 S3: director general, I sat on something and they said, you know, 110 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,120 S3: did you always want to be one or were you accidental? 111 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,640 S3: And I said, there's nothing accidental about me being in 112 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,720 S3: this role. It was absolutely something that I put my 113 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,080 S3: eyes on and went for. I started the government when 114 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,240 S3: I was about 24, 25 as sort of, you know, 115 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,880 S3: very junior level. And I remember the director general at 116 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,880 S3: the time, and it might have been shared the same 117 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,360 S3: name as me. Um, she, she was only 37 and 118 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,650 S3: she was pregnant with with one of her children. And 119 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:55,650 S3: I remember going to a forum and she was talking 120 00:05:55,650 --> 00:05:57,890 S3: about how she had just started in the role and 121 00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:00,450 S3: then was going to take mat leave, and I just went, wow. 122 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:02,490 S3: And at the time, I've been a I was a 123 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:04,290 S3: single parent for a long time, and I had a 124 00:06:04,290 --> 00:06:07,170 S3: young son at that age and I was very much like, wow, 125 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:08,810 S3: if you can do it, I can do it. So 126 00:06:09,010 --> 00:06:11,410 S3: I really set my mind on that. For those that 127 00:06:11,410 --> 00:06:14,730 S3: know the Queensland framework, I was in A05, so set 128 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:17,330 S3: at that junior level, and then I've just really sort 129 00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:18,970 S3: of chased it since then. 130 00:06:19,330 --> 00:06:21,330 S2: So let's talk let's talk about chasing it. What does 131 00:06:21,490 --> 00:06:22,930 S2: what did chasing look like for you? 132 00:06:23,210 --> 00:06:26,930 S3: Yeah, look, chasing it for me is about being. And again, 133 00:06:26,930 --> 00:06:29,650 S3: I've sort of picked this up through different um leaders. 134 00:06:29,650 --> 00:06:32,970 S3: I've heard speak about saying yes to opportunities and never 135 00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:36,170 S3: being closed mind never saying, oh, look, that's not something 136 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:38,730 S3: I'd be interested in. For me, it was all about 137 00:06:38,770 --> 00:06:41,089 S3: always about looking for what's the next thing that's going 138 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:43,490 S3: to add to my skill set? What's going to broaden 139 00:06:43,529 --> 00:06:46,930 S3: my CV to show that, um, you know, in my language, 140 00:06:46,930 --> 00:06:48,690 S3: I'm not a one trick pony. I can't, you know, 141 00:06:48,730 --> 00:06:53,070 S3: that I can actually work across a whole different content areas. Um. 142 00:06:53,350 --> 00:06:57,630 S3: Different levels of, um, you know, ambiguity from, um, you know, 143 00:06:57,670 --> 00:07:00,870 S3: and certainly reform is something that I've really been attracted to. 144 00:07:00,910 --> 00:07:03,070 S3: So areas that, you know, they bring in a piece 145 00:07:03,070 --> 00:07:05,710 S3: of legislation, they want you to lead that or there's 146 00:07:05,710 --> 00:07:08,190 S3: an area that potentially isn't performing as well. And it's 147 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:10,550 S3: about can you come in and really, um, you know, 148 00:07:10,590 --> 00:07:12,950 S3: modernize it and sort of, you know, bring it back 149 00:07:12,950 --> 00:07:15,430 S3: up to the standard that it needs to be. So 150 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:19,150 S3: I've always been open to then doing different things. I've 151 00:07:19,190 --> 00:07:22,390 S3: traditionally moved every 3 to 4 years in my career. Yes. 152 00:07:22,390 --> 00:07:26,510 S3: I've stayed in Queensland government, but um, the, each department 153 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:29,590 S3: is so different. So I've worked across a vast array 154 00:07:29,590 --> 00:07:32,710 S3: of different departments. And I think for me, chasing it 155 00:07:32,710 --> 00:07:35,150 S3: means you've got to be open to doing pretty much anything. 156 00:07:35,150 --> 00:07:37,670 S3: And that's the mindset I've kept because it's like, well, 157 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:39,590 S3: this is going to lead me to the next thing. 158 00:07:39,590 --> 00:07:41,070 S3: So I don't be too picky. 159 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:44,710 S2: What what about leadership do you like? Because there's a 160 00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:47,190 S2: lot about it that's just tough, right? 161 00:07:47,470 --> 00:07:50,120 S3: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And the higher up you go, the 162 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,880 S3: more you realize just how little control you have over 163 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,120 S3: your day, over what you work on. Um, and you 164 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,720 S3: often find yourself reflecting as a more junior person. I 165 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,560 S3: had so much more autonomy. Um, but I really like 166 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,120 S3: and public service is something I've been, was drawn to 167 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,280 S3: and then was, and I guess for me, my interest 168 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,760 S3: in it was retained when I could see what good 169 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,480 S3: public policy did for society. A quick example of that 170 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,000 S3: is the backpackers fire that happened in North Queensland in 2001, 171 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,280 S3: where 15 people were killed. My first job was about 172 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,400 S3: working with owners to comply with new fire safety laws. 173 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,920 S3: I learnt over the period of three years that, yes, 174 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,720 S3: there were more fires, but as more people complied, less 175 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,280 S3: people died. So for me it was like, actually this 176 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,560 S3: government work can actually make a difference. It's not just 177 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,920 S3: all about shuffling paper and no outcome to the general community. 178 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,040 S2: Now, because you're in the public service. You know, leadership 179 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,679 S2: is taken very seriously. And I'm sure you've done lots 180 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,100 S2: of leadership courses and you've got lots of examples of 181 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:50,179 S2: great leaders that you've seen. But do you know? Do 182 00:08:50,179 --> 00:08:52,460 S2: you know what's said about you? Do you know how 183 00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:54,500 S2: people describe your leadership style? 184 00:08:54,620 --> 00:08:57,380 S3: Yeah. And look, for me, one of the key things 185 00:08:57,380 --> 00:09:00,060 S3: I learned very early on and the hard way, which 186 00:09:00,059 --> 00:09:02,340 S3: is generally how some of the best lessons are learned, 187 00:09:02,340 --> 00:09:06,179 S3: is self-reflection is critical as a leader. So if you're 188 00:09:06,179 --> 00:09:08,060 S3: not going to pause and go, hang on, I really 189 00:09:08,059 --> 00:09:10,100 S3: want to say this, but if I say that it's 190 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,660 S3: going to be taken this way, this way, that way, 191 00:09:12,660 --> 00:09:16,060 S3: which is then going to create the wrong outcome. So, 192 00:09:16,220 --> 00:09:18,620 S3: and I learnt that the hard way because I am 193 00:09:18,620 --> 00:09:22,500 S3: quite direct. Um, and certainly when I was younger, um, 194 00:09:22,540 --> 00:09:26,340 S3: definitely quite self-confident. So I think it was about you 195 00:09:26,340 --> 00:09:28,340 S3: need to, you know, think about your audience and how 196 00:09:28,340 --> 00:09:31,020 S3: it's going to be received. So I do know that 197 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:34,500 S3: people will often say, Nat is somebody who should get 198 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,140 S3: stuff done. She'll fix the hard thing that no one 199 00:09:38,140 --> 00:09:41,219 S3: else wants to touch, but don't mess with eyes. The 200 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:42,300 S3: other thing they'll say. 201 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:44,300 S2: I'm just going to tell our listeners that I'm aware 202 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:46,589 S2: of all of that. But what Nat just said, um, 203 00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:49,589 S2: because I have been working, I have been working, um, 204 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:51,870 S2: not so much with the don't mess with um, although 205 00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:54,069 S2: I suspect I get a bit of that myself, but 206 00:09:54,110 --> 00:09:57,910 S2: I it's to get things done thing right. Totally got 207 00:09:57,910 --> 00:10:02,510 S2: this very strong, um, uh, reputation for getting things done. 208 00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:04,510 S2: Before I go on, I just want to ask where 209 00:10:04,510 --> 00:10:07,710 S2: you got the self-confidence from because I interview person after 210 00:10:07,710 --> 00:10:09,550 S2: person after person. I've just come off another interview with 211 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:13,230 S2: someone saying, you know, imposter syndrome, terrible imposter syndrome. Had 212 00:10:13,230 --> 00:10:15,830 S2: to really work on my confidence. Where does yours come from? 213 00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:18,309 S3: Like growing up, it's not like I had people sort 214 00:10:18,309 --> 00:10:20,270 S3: of telling me how amazing I was because it wasn't. 215 00:10:20,270 --> 00:10:23,030 S3: I grew up in a very, you know, um, supportive family, 216 00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:25,750 S3: but just very normal. Like, and I was an overachiever 217 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:30,350 S3: as a younger person, I think probably, to be honest, having, um, 218 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:32,630 S3: having my son, when I had him, it was like, 219 00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:35,350 S3: you've just gotta, it's you. If you want to get 220 00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:37,070 S3: stuff done, you're going to have to get it done yourself. 221 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:39,430 S3: So go and learn how to do it. So you just, 222 00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:41,990 S3: you just do it. So and I think for me, 223 00:10:42,030 --> 00:10:45,929 S3: having a long period of that. I've just always I've 224 00:10:45,929 --> 00:10:48,010 S3: had to back myself in because it's then meant that 225 00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:50,730 S3: I could provide more. So that was that was a 226 00:10:50,730 --> 00:10:54,170 S3: driving force, I think also because I've associated. And I've 227 00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:58,610 S3: been very fortunate to work for some very good leaders who, um, 228 00:10:58,610 --> 00:11:01,970 S3: my style, their style at works that then you get 229 00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:05,770 S3: appropriate feedback and it both good, you know, both to 230 00:11:05,809 --> 00:11:08,130 S3: sort of, you know, correct as well as to keep 231 00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:10,370 S3: you going like sort of saying, yeah, that's really good. 232 00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:13,770 S3: Keep doing that. Maybe alter that, that then. Um, yeah, 233 00:11:13,770 --> 00:11:17,290 S3: I think I've, I've just been fortunate, but also have 234 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:20,569 S3: purposely sorted out to be in the right environments where 235 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:23,130 S3: I don't feel like I'm not succeeding, which I think 236 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:26,530 S3: then erodes your confidence over time because it's natural to 237 00:11:26,530 --> 00:11:28,610 S3: look in and go, well, it's me that's the problem. 238 00:11:28,610 --> 00:11:30,530 S3: Whereas quite often it's not. 239 00:11:30,850 --> 00:11:34,610 S2: When we, um, meet at Jobs Academy, members in Queensland government, 240 00:11:34,610 --> 00:11:38,330 S2: as you know, supports current intake, another 250 women into 241 00:11:38,330 --> 00:11:41,170 S2: Jobs Academy, um, which is, you know, the department, you 242 00:11:41,170 --> 00:11:45,060 S2: oversee that department that supports that. I just met about 243 00:11:45,059 --> 00:11:48,420 S2: five single moms last week. You know who? Not much 244 00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:49,820 S2: has to go wrong as a single mom for life 245 00:11:49,820 --> 00:11:52,340 S2: to get pretty tough. Yeah. Um. Does it. How do 246 00:11:52,340 --> 00:11:54,380 S2: you relate to the single mom? Like, it feels to 247 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:56,740 S2: me that we spent a lot of time in this 248 00:11:56,740 --> 00:11:59,780 S2: country and probably since the beginning of time, making the 249 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:02,660 S2: life of single moms pretty hard, when in actual fact, 250 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:04,660 S2: you're kind of heroes. Really? 251 00:12:05,140 --> 00:12:08,820 S3: Yeah, I think and I'm a big believer in you 252 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:10,540 S3: sort of get what you can deal with. So, um, 253 00:12:10,580 --> 00:12:12,500 S3: not that I asked to be a single parent, but 254 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:15,540 S3: I think it's just, you know, that's my philosophy. I 255 00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:18,300 S3: think that for me, any employee, it's about how do 256 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:20,820 S3: you get the most out of them? So potentially for 257 00:12:20,820 --> 00:12:24,060 S3: single parents and depending on what their support networks are like, 258 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:27,420 S3: they might just need a little bit more permission for, um, 259 00:12:27,460 --> 00:12:30,300 S3: random things to pop up. So I think that's the, 260 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:32,540 S3: that's the biggest thing I found as a single parent 261 00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:35,100 S3: is that you don't have the backups that potentially other 262 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:37,780 S3: family sort of structures have got. So you then need 263 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:40,760 S3: that flexibility that it literally will come out of nowhere 264 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,880 S3: and you need to respond in a certain way. So 265 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,680 S3: I think just that acknowledgement that it's not the person 266 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,880 S3: playing the single parent card. Um, and I think some 267 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,680 S3: of the people that I know who, um, are single parent, 268 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,720 S3: both male and female, um, are some of the most 269 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,800 S3: resourceful people I've come across and know how to hustle 270 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,199 S3: like nothing else that I've ever seen because I've had to. So, and, um, 271 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,880 S3: I think that to me is sort of, you know, 272 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,960 S3: seeing some qualities that you wouldn't necessarily, you know, obviously 273 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,199 S3: be looking for in, in single parents. 274 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,160 S2: I want to talk a little bit about managing multiple stakeholders. 275 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,640 S2: You know, as a director of a department, you have 276 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,080 S2: a pretty complex web of stakeholders. And I know it's 277 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,440 S2: a truism that you deliver for the government of the day, 278 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,610 S2: but essentially that is your job is managing a minister 279 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:44,010 S2: and a government's stated ambitions and policies and election commitments. 280 00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:48,410 S2: Talk to me about how you manage that relationship between 281 00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:51,449 S2: the government and the work that you do in the department. 282 00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:55,050 S3: For me, it really is about making sure that you're 283 00:13:55,050 --> 00:13:59,530 S3: clear with for each stakeholder group what the non-negotiables are. 284 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:02,370 S3: And I think stakeholders will while they may not like it, 285 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:05,210 S3: and it's not about liking it, it's about respecting it 286 00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:07,689 S3: and then saying, right. So these are the, you know, 287 00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:09,929 S3: these are the parameters, these are the guardrails. How do 288 00:14:09,929 --> 00:14:12,050 S3: we then work together? What is it that you're wanting 289 00:14:12,050 --> 00:14:15,929 S3: from government? I'll work with you on what's then achievable 290 00:14:15,929 --> 00:14:19,610 S3: from that. And I think just constantly keeping that open, 291 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:23,010 S3: honest dialogue to me is what works the best. 292 00:14:23,050 --> 00:14:24,770 S2: What advice do you have for anyone who's got to 293 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:26,770 S2: manage up to this sort of level that you have to? 294 00:14:27,090 --> 00:14:30,650 S3: Yeah. Look, I think it's about being really clear about 295 00:14:30,690 --> 00:14:34,290 S3: going with a here's the you know, here's the situation, 296 00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:36,750 S3: here's what I think could be some of the options. 297 00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:39,750 S3: What are your views? Are you happy with I go 298 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:42,470 S3: and investigate this, this and this. I think the biggest 299 00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:45,070 S3: thing that and I you know, in reverse, when my 300 00:14:45,070 --> 00:14:47,510 S3: team come to me, if they've sort of come in 301 00:14:47,510 --> 00:14:50,830 S3: and there's no solution or no way of here's what 302 00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:52,990 S3: I think it could be or what do you think 303 00:14:52,990 --> 00:14:56,550 S3: of this? Um, unless they're really broken, which is fine. 304 00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:58,390 S3: And we all get to that point where I actually 305 00:14:58,390 --> 00:15:00,470 S3: have no idea, I just need to start talking to 306 00:15:00,470 --> 00:15:02,630 S3: you and hopefully we can work it out together. I'm 307 00:15:02,670 --> 00:15:05,150 S3: totally for that, but you need to then own it 308 00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:07,390 S3: that that's what you're doing. Not I've not even thought 309 00:15:07,390 --> 00:15:09,990 S3: about it. So that's how I manage back up with 310 00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:12,750 S3: regardless of who I've worked with and certainly with ministers, 311 00:15:12,750 --> 00:15:15,390 S3: it's like, here's what I think the um, some options 312 00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:18,030 S3: could be. What are your views and getting them to 313 00:15:18,070 --> 00:15:20,990 S3: then give me that type of information and then I 314 00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:24,110 S3: work with that. And then that constant checking going, okay. 315 00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:26,030 S3: Based on that, here's what I found. Are you still 316 00:15:26,030 --> 00:15:27,830 S3: of that view or do you want to do something different? 317 00:15:27,870 --> 00:15:30,630 S2: One of the interesting, most interesting relationships, I find it's 318 00:15:30,630 --> 00:15:32,510 S2: not just in the public sector, right? It's also in 319 00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:36,040 S2: the private sector where you've got the the subject matter 320 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:41,040 S2: expert who is spent their career on something and then 321 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,040 S2: the boss that turns up that's actually got no ID, 322 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,160 S2: no history in that in that area at all. And 323 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,720 S2: as I say, it's not just public service. I see 324 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,560 S2: it quite often in corporates where someone was amazing in sales, 325 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,680 S2: ends up head of marketing or someone in marketing who's 326 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,920 S2: amazing in marketing, ends up the CEO of a company with, 327 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,840 S2: you know, quite an interesting set of challenges. How do 328 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,479 S2: you navigate sort of like actually knowing all the answers, 329 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,440 S2: kind of knowing where all the bodies are buried, where 330 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,680 S2: all the landmines are with someone who's coming with a 331 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,640 S2: completely fresh set of eyes and potentially little or no 332 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,040 S2: knowledge of the sector or the problem that you're grappling with. 333 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,240 S3: Yeah. And look, that's certainly, um, so I was that 334 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,680 S3: person coming into this role didn't have the content knowledge 335 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,640 S3: that that others do. But I think so for me, 336 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,680 S3: and because I do have moved around a lot, I 337 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,400 S3: often put myself, then I remind myself about what that 338 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,480 S3: was like and then what I needed when people briefed 339 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,660 S3: up to me. So it really is about no assumptions. 340 00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:39,060 S3: You can't assume that that person thinks or feels a 341 00:16:39,060 --> 00:16:41,420 S3: certain way about anything. So it's really about going to 342 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:43,980 S3: them and saying, okay, you know, for my portfolio, here 343 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:45,860 S3: are the four things that are likely to come up 344 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:49,260 S3: in the next three months. Here is the history of them. 345 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:51,740 S3: Here are some things that we're doing. What would you 346 00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:54,220 S3: like to do or what do you need more of 347 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:56,740 S3: for you to then make that decision? So I think 348 00:16:56,780 --> 00:17:00,420 S3: it's really about not don't make assumptions about what someone's 349 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:02,700 S3: going to think, feel. Do I think that's where it 350 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,260 S3: all falls apart really quickly, really early? 351 00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:11,020 S2: Yeah, that makes sense. Complex information. So again, you're running 352 00:17:11,180 --> 00:17:15,580 S2: a department with quite complex sets of challenges across a 353 00:17:15,580 --> 00:17:17,500 S2: number of different areas. Talk to me a little bit 354 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:20,899 S2: about how you distill large amounts of information and then, 355 00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:23,220 S2: you know, develop a position around it. 356 00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:26,020 S3: Yeah. So normally what, especially when it's complex and some 357 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:30,100 S3: of the matters and certainly in previous portfolios where legislation is, 358 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:32,030 S3: you know, land use planning, those types of things. And 359 00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:35,070 S3: I'm not a planner. So it's like, right, show me 360 00:17:35,070 --> 00:17:37,389 S3: a map, draw it for me. Talk me through it. 361 00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:40,150 S3: And I often will say to my team, you're in 362 00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:42,669 S3: the lift with me on ground floor of one. William, 363 00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:44,910 S3: you're going to 41. What are the three things you're 364 00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:46,830 S3: going to tell me that I need to know to 365 00:17:46,830 --> 00:17:49,030 S3: be able to make a decision about this thing? So 366 00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:52,710 S3: I really work with them to give me very succinct, 367 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:56,310 S3: high level sort of the initial takeaway. I then use 368 00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:59,350 S3: that to then frame up how I read something. So 369 00:17:59,350 --> 00:18:01,910 S3: I will then read it, and I tend to have 370 00:18:01,910 --> 00:18:03,550 S3: a rule of no more than sort of, you know, 371 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:06,429 S3: three page briefs, public servants wear. And I was guilty 372 00:18:06,430 --> 00:18:10,150 S3: of it too. They would write significant sort of, you know, 373 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:13,830 S3: reams of paper for something that no one can possibly digest. 374 00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:16,350 S3: So it's about let's think about the audience and make 375 00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:19,030 S3: it really sort of succinct. Bullet point is often what 376 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:21,790 S3: I'll say. I think in bullet points. So sort of 377 00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:22,590 S3: write that way. 378 00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:26,109 S2: That clarity of thought is rare. So if you're getting 379 00:18:26,109 --> 00:18:30,370 S2: reams and there's no distillation from any of it, How 380 00:18:30,369 --> 00:18:33,090 S2: do you manage a team that's not giving you the 381 00:18:33,090 --> 00:18:34,130 S2: clarity that you need? 382 00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:37,530 S3: Yeah. So I'll often then send them what, which is 383 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:40,010 S3: a completely different, you know, subject. I'll say, look, here's 384 00:18:40,010 --> 00:18:42,010 S3: something that I got. This is the type of thing 385 00:18:42,010 --> 00:18:44,850 S3: I'm looking for. I will also meet with them in person. 386 00:18:44,850 --> 00:18:47,730 S3: So I think the death by email going back or 387 00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:50,490 S3: the markup of a document, it's not productive. No one 388 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:53,570 S3: gets anything out of that except frustration. So I will 389 00:18:53,609 --> 00:18:57,330 S3: often where I can see that my first is sort of, 390 00:18:57,369 --> 00:19:00,129 S3: you know, request is not they've not fully understood it 391 00:19:00,130 --> 00:19:02,090 S3: or haven't been able to do it. I'll go and 392 00:19:02,090 --> 00:19:04,169 S3: sit with them and I've got no issue ringing the 393 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,130 S3: author and going, hey, can you just sort of talk 394 00:19:07,130 --> 00:19:09,010 S3: me through? This is what I wanted. This is what 395 00:19:09,010 --> 00:19:12,209 S3: you've given me. Can you tell me why? And sometimes 396 00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:15,530 S3: some people who have a completely different, you know, style 397 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:19,010 S3: to me where they are extremely detailed and they've spent 398 00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:21,609 S3: three weeks on this thing. It's like, I wanted you 399 00:19:21,609 --> 00:19:24,290 S3: to see how much I knew on this topic. I 400 00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:27,250 S3: wanted you to, I wanted to make sure you had everything. 401 00:19:27,369 --> 00:19:29,109 S3: And some of them are like, well, I needed to 402 00:19:29,109 --> 00:19:32,389 S3: do that to make sure that I discharged my responsibility. 403 00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:35,670 S3: And I often say, give me the information I need 404 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:37,910 S3: to make a decision. Don't give me the information you 405 00:19:37,910 --> 00:19:40,510 S3: think you need to cover yourself. They are two very 406 00:19:40,510 --> 00:19:42,830 S3: different reasons for writing something. 407 00:19:42,869 --> 00:19:44,550 S2: How often do you find yourself saying that? 408 00:19:44,550 --> 00:19:47,710 S3: Regularly. And I think people take it as an offense, 409 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:49,750 S3: and it's not meant as an offense. It's just sort 410 00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:52,030 S3: of saying, look, I get you think you need that, 411 00:19:52,030 --> 00:19:54,110 S3: but I don't need that. And I'm the decision maker. 412 00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:56,430 S3: So I'm giving you information about what I think I 413 00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:58,389 S3: need to make a call. And at the end of 414 00:19:58,390 --> 00:20:01,390 S3: the day, it the call sits with me, not you. 415 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:06,710 S2: Let's talk about ambiguity again. You're right at the apex 416 00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:12,190 S2: of so many swirling issues and circumstances. How do you 417 00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:15,670 S2: manage that situation when you are all heading in one direction? 418 00:20:15,950 --> 00:20:19,389 S2: And I'm going to use an example. The CEO comes 419 00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:22,230 S2: out and announces a completely different strategy or a completely 420 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:25,430 S2: different direction, might be based on a media story, might 421 00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:29,560 S2: be based on something knocking him or her off? Off kilter. 422 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,760 S2: And it's super annoying for everybody who's been busily working 423 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,639 S2: on one set of objectives or one pathway. How do 424 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,360 S2: you how do you manage those situations? 425 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,160 S3: So I think first of all, it's about just allowing 426 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,480 S3: people to, to acknowledge it and share, you know, a moment. 427 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,000 S3: It is not about a personal attack on an individual 428 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,960 S3: and any sort of disrespectful comments about that individual. It's 429 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,600 S3: more about just owning, acknowledging it and sitting in it 430 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,679 S3: for a limited period of time going, yeah, look, I 431 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,960 S3: get everyone's really annoyed by this. I get you all 432 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,400 S3: put a lot of effort and time into doing this thing, 433 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,160 S3: but it's now been determined we're going over here. So 434 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,600 S3: our job is to support the CEO of DG, Minister, 435 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,640 S3: whatever it happens to be. So how do we do that? 436 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,520 S3: And sometimes some people are like, yep, I get it. 437 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,600 S3: But I just I really just need a bit longer 438 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,440 S3: and I'll be like, right, you've got till tomorrow morning. I'll, 439 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,580 S3: we'll talk about it then. But I don't let people 440 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:27,980 S3: sit in it for long. And I think for me, 441 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:30,700 S3: it's okay to acknowledge when you're frustrated, it just needs 442 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,780 S3: to be discussed in a professional manner because it's a workplace. 443 00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:37,060 S3: And then it's about, let's focus on what's the next step, 444 00:21:37,060 --> 00:21:38,260 S3: how do we move forward? 445 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:40,700 S2: That's how you lead through it. But what about your 446 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:45,619 S2: own immediate reaction? Because that is a powerful, a powerful tool. 447 00:21:45,619 --> 00:21:50,740 S2: That's a powerful moment when when you're told that all 448 00:21:50,740 --> 00:21:53,300 S2: of that doesn't work, how do you how do you 449 00:21:53,340 --> 00:21:54,740 S2: personally respond at the moment? 450 00:21:55,020 --> 00:22:00,700 S3: Yeah, it is. And I have a terrible poker face. Sorry. 451 00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:04,060 S3: I am again aware of that. So it really is 452 00:22:04,060 --> 00:22:07,100 S3: about depending on the person in the moment, um, and 453 00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,300 S3: the relationship you have with that person. I, with some people, 454 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:13,660 S3: I can respectfully say, look, I'm that I'm just really 455 00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:16,100 S3: annoyed by that or I'm really upset by that, or 456 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:17,700 S3: I just, I just don't get it. I give up, 457 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,740 S3: I tried everything, you know, and, and we're still here. 458 00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:22,820 S3: So if I can't do that, then I think it's 459 00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:25,230 S3: just like, okay, I probably just need a moment. I'll 460 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:27,190 S3: come back to you. So I think it is you 461 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:29,070 S3: have to learn as a leader how to regulate. You 462 00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:31,310 S3: have to. If you're going to have a dummy spit 463 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:33,230 S3: in front of the wrong person, that's going to bring 464 00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:36,629 S3: you unstuck. It's just that simple. Leaders are expected and 465 00:22:36,670 --> 00:22:40,470 S3: their team absolutely expect it. And I think should that 466 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:42,669 S3: we can compose ourselves when we need to. 467 00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:46,950 S2: But you're not above saying to someone, I'm really annoyed 468 00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:47,590 S2: about that. 469 00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:52,189 S3: Absolutely not. No. And I think good relationships at a 470 00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:56,470 S3: leadership level, either with your peer or your boss, are 471 00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:59,909 S3: only formed on a level of trust and honesty. Probably 472 00:22:59,910 --> 00:23:02,550 S3: not trust, but a level of being able to have 473 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:05,389 S3: a moment and call it out. But respectfully, I think 474 00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:07,950 S3: I can't emphasize the respectful enough. 475 00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:12,790 S2: What do you expect then from your team members when 476 00:23:12,790 --> 00:23:17,869 S2: that's happened? So you've had a shift, you've you're leading 477 00:23:17,869 --> 00:23:22,369 S2: through it. You've had your quiet. Dum dum dum spit 478 00:23:22,369 --> 00:23:24,130 S2: and no one even knows about it apart from that 479 00:23:24,130 --> 00:23:26,730 S2: poker face problem that you've got, and then you've gone 480 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:29,490 S2: and shared with your team, what do you expect from 481 00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:31,450 S2: your team members in that circumstance? 482 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:34,889 S3: So because they're all human, we're not robots, I expect 483 00:23:34,890 --> 00:23:36,970 S3: them to probably go through a similar process to what 484 00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:39,970 S3: I did half an hour earlier. So I'll give them 485 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:42,930 S3: that space to have a moment and react. But I 486 00:23:42,930 --> 00:23:46,649 S3: do expect especially the people that report directly to me, um, 487 00:23:46,690 --> 00:23:50,330 S3: and in this role especially, they're very senior public servants 488 00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:54,090 S3: that we then regroup and find a way through. So 489 00:23:54,130 --> 00:23:57,770 S3: I'm expecting solutions I'm expecting and they don't all need 490 00:23:57,770 --> 00:23:59,930 S3: to be, and they can't all be right because they're not. 491 00:23:59,930 --> 00:24:02,130 S3: And I think it's just I expect them to though, 492 00:24:02,170 --> 00:24:06,450 S3: go into solution mode relatively quickly. But I very much 493 00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:10,210 S3: build a sort of a, a leadership, um, culture of 494 00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:14,050 S3: we're doing this together. It's like one fails, we all fail. 495 00:24:14,050 --> 00:24:17,330 S3: It's that simple. This is not Betty's problem. This is 496 00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:19,889 S3: our problem. So how do we work on this together? 497 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:23,380 S2: How much of your job is leading through ambiguity? 498 00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:26,420 S3: Uh, I would say 85%. 499 00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:29,379 S2: So this is a core skill for you? 500 00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:30,820 S3: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. 501 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:45,900 S2: Are there things about a new team that you're taking 502 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:48,540 S2: over that you look out for that you kind of go, 503 00:24:48,980 --> 00:24:50,739 S2: this is what I really don't want to see in 504 00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:53,180 S2: this department. And you'll start to, you know, either set 505 00:24:53,180 --> 00:24:57,260 S2: the framework or move quickly to shift the culture. 506 00:24:57,580 --> 00:25:01,580 S3: Yeah, yeah. Look, self-interest, people using that to guide all 507 00:25:01,619 --> 00:25:04,700 S3: their decisions. And you can see that in the exact level. 508 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:07,380 S3: It shows up pretty quickly. It doesn't take long I think. 509 00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:09,820 S3: And then that that will often feed down into sort 510 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:12,820 S3: of some of the more junior levels. I think people 511 00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:15,500 S3: that very much have a, well, this is how we 512 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:18,300 S3: do it around here. And that's great that you've got 513 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:20,880 S3: that idea. but that we don't want to hear that here. 514 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,720 S3: So that sort of complete immediate resistance to any discussion 515 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,040 S3: of something or any discussion on respectful questioning about, okay, 516 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,159 S3: can you talk me through why you do that? Why 517 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,440 S3: is that the case? And that generally people who have 518 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,760 S3: a real issue with any change, you'll see it immediately. 519 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,160 S3: They'll start to really work against you on that. I 520 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,200 S3: you know, for me, I want a culture of where, yes, 521 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,720 S3: it's okay to have people ask and question, why are 522 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,639 S3: you doing it a certain way? And it's okay to say, well, 523 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,480 S3: this is because of these reasons, and then it's okay 524 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,560 S3: if people suggest change to go, well, actually, I'm not 525 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,480 S3: sure if that would work, but it's about open dialogue 526 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,880 S3: and having that discussion. So what I don't want is 527 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,879 S3: an organization that is refusing to even have a discussion 528 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,880 S3: on things and just shuts down. 529 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:09,800 S2: I interviewed another senior figure in the bureaucracy, and only recently, actually, 530 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,680 S2: I just just occurred to me, listening to you and 531 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,730 S2: his take on leadership was about courage, was about how 532 00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:23,210 S2: you display courage in the roles that you're occupying. Do 533 00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:24,290 S2: you feel like that? 534 00:26:24,330 --> 00:26:27,130 S3: Absolutely. Like the right thing is nine times out of ten. 535 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:30,649 S3: The hardest thing to do. It would be so much 536 00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:33,530 S3: easier to not do it. You would be so much 537 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:37,130 S3: more popular as a leader if you didn't always do 538 00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:40,290 S3: the right thing. Um, I really agree with that. Um, 539 00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:43,010 S3: I think courage is hard. It shows up in different 540 00:26:43,010 --> 00:26:46,810 S3: ways depending on who, whether it's with a peer, whether 541 00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:50,850 S3: it's with your, your, your boss, whether it's, um, you know, 542 00:26:50,890 --> 00:26:54,250 S3: with team members that are a bit more junior and ah, um, 543 00:26:54,290 --> 00:26:57,609 S3: you know, really unhappy with something and rather than, you know, 544 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:00,770 S3: it could be easy just to placate them and go, okay, fine. Yep. 545 00:27:00,810 --> 00:27:03,050 S3: Let's just do this when you know, you need to 546 00:27:03,050 --> 00:27:06,210 S3: really just hold to it. And I think a lot 547 00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:09,570 S3: of people sometimes in leadership think that, you know, our 548 00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:12,570 S3: job is to sort of keep everyone relatively happy. That's 549 00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:14,729 S3: not the job. The job is to do the right thing. 550 00:27:15,270 --> 00:27:18,750 S2: Absolutely. Um, what's the best piece of feedback you've received 551 00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:19,470 S2: in your career? 552 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:24,830 S3: Uh. Hasten slowly. So I'm one of my strengths is 553 00:27:24,830 --> 00:27:27,310 S3: quick to act, which is then also a weakness. So 554 00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:31,350 S3: it's about just really some things just take the time. 555 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:33,350 S3: Not everything needs to be a quick decision. 556 00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:35,310 S2: So any career regrets? 557 00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:37,709 S3: Um, so I think for me it's probably not a regret. 558 00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:40,310 S3: I think when I was a little younger, I thought, oh, 559 00:27:40,869 --> 00:27:43,109 S3: you know, probably left it too late to move into 560 00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:45,910 S3: a different sector. Like if I wanted to experience like, 561 00:27:45,910 --> 00:27:49,109 S3: I'm really big on diverse work backgrounds, I think make 562 00:27:49,109 --> 00:27:51,590 S3: for the best employees. And I just thought, am I 563 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:53,909 S3: missing a skill set here and an experience? Should I 564 00:27:53,910 --> 00:27:57,190 S3: really have gone out into to some level of private sector? 565 00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:59,990 S3: So and then I think your, um, your age sort 566 00:27:59,990 --> 00:28:02,190 S3: of comes upon you and then you start losing a little, 567 00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:03,790 S3: you're like, oh, I don't really think I'd be able 568 00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:07,070 S3: to transition into another sector. So that's probably the only 569 00:28:07,109 --> 00:28:08,830 S3: thing as far and I wouldn't call it a regret. 570 00:28:08,830 --> 00:28:11,149 S3: I think it's just something that I do pause and ponder. 571 00:28:11,150 --> 00:28:14,520 S3: I wonder what, what if? Yeah, yeah. but the public 572 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,000 S3: service gives me so much satisfaction. Like I'm not somebody 573 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,600 S3: who could my. The way I work is I have 574 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,200 S3: to like my job. I can't just tolerate it. So 575 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,480 S3: I'm not that person. 576 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,680 S2: There's so many pros and cons to that. But. And 577 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,800 S2: if as long as you're happy. Right? It's a, it, it, um, 578 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,119 S2: it doesn't really matter. And you will probably have other opportunities. Uh, 579 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,760 S2: any leadership fails. I'm going to guess they're around your 580 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,280 S2: speedy your rush to get stuff done. Yeah. 581 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,160 S3: Look I think yeah. And I think also that just, um, 582 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,480 S3: I mentioned earlier that making assumptions on people you may 583 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,720 S3: not have worked with and what you think they'll want. 584 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,000 S3: So I think, yeah, I've sometimes probably, um, not pigeonholed 585 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,840 S3: but thought, right, these will be the 2 or 3 586 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,360 S3: things this person's going to want. And it's just been 587 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,320 S3: so off the mark. So and I think that that's 588 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,680 S3: good though, because I think also, and this is why 589 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,720 S3: I move around in leadership, it keeps you humble. Like 590 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,140 S3: we get big heads quickly. And I think that making 591 00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:15,420 S3: sure that you are you're not the smartest person in 592 00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:17,420 S3: the room every day of the week. And that I 593 00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:20,060 S3: think not being good at everything all the time is 594 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:23,140 S3: important because you just. Yeah, it makes you go, hang 595 00:29:23,140 --> 00:29:25,820 S3: on a minute. Yeah. No, that wasn't right. I need 596 00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:29,340 S3: to do that differently. And, um, I think it makes 597 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:30,980 S3: you a nicer person to work with too. 598 00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:34,460 S2: Now, my final question is to any young woman listening 599 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:38,140 S2: to your, you know, straight talking view of how to 600 00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:40,740 S2: manage a career and they're just sort of in the 601 00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:43,459 S2: middle of their career. What sort of advice do you have? 602 00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:46,260 S3: Yeah. Look, I think for me, a couple of things. 603 00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:48,460 S3: One is if you're in a situation and you're feeling 604 00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:53,260 S3: like you're just not succeeding, don't automatically think it's you. Um, 605 00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:56,540 S3: I think we go there very quickly. I think it's 606 00:29:56,540 --> 00:29:59,340 S3: okay to leave. Like it's okay to say this has 607 00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:03,459 S3: run its course. I've learned what I can. I've learnt 608 00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:05,620 S3: what not to do, which I often talk about is 609 00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:07,660 S3: a very important thing from some of the people I've 610 00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:09,860 S3: reported to. I've learnt what I would never want to 611 00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:12,910 S3: do And that's an important lesson. So I think it's time. 612 00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:14,590 S3: It's good to call it. I think it's fine to 613 00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:16,910 S3: go right. This is now served it's purpose. It's time 614 00:30:16,910 --> 00:30:20,550 S3: to go somewhere else. And I think for me, that 615 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:23,590 S3: is also partly where I've had my most success is 616 00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:25,790 S3: finding my people is what I refer to it as. 617 00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:27,910 S3: So it's finding people that, you know, when I go 618 00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:30,350 S3: for a job interview, I'm also interviewing the person I'm 619 00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:33,110 S3: likely to report to. So if I don't feel that's 620 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:36,030 S3: going to work, then I'm just like, you're not. You 621 00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:37,150 S3: and I are not going to get the best out 622 00:30:37,150 --> 00:30:39,790 S3: of each other. That's then not a good use of 623 00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:42,510 S3: anyone's time. So I think that would be the thing 624 00:30:42,510 --> 00:30:45,950 S3: I would encourage anybody who's wanting to, you know, from 625 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:49,390 S3: a career perspective is that, yeah, it's okay to leave 626 00:30:49,390 --> 00:30:51,670 S3: and it's okay to say no until you find the 627 00:30:51,670 --> 00:30:52,310 S3: right fit. 628 00:30:52,590 --> 00:30:55,470 S2: Melissa, great to have you on the podcast. Uh, thank 629 00:30:55,470 --> 00:30:57,110 S2: you for sharing your leadership insights. 630 00:30:57,270 --> 00:30:58,910 S3: No, thank you Helen. It's been great. 631 00:31:11,410 --> 00:31:13,530 S1: So this week we've had a couple of people write 632 00:31:13,530 --> 00:31:17,690 S1: in and ask questions about hiring and job interviews. I 633 00:31:17,690 --> 00:31:19,410 S1: know you would have done a lot of them in 634 00:31:19,410 --> 00:31:22,890 S1: your time. Helen, one of the questions that we had 635 00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:26,290 S1: is someone wanted to know. They said they've been interviewing 636 00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:29,570 S1: for a few positions lately and are struggling to find 637 00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:33,090 S1: the appropriate balance between being polite and not wasting too 638 00:31:33,090 --> 00:31:36,170 S1: much time when it's clear that a candidate isn't the 639 00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:36,850 S1: right fit. 640 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:39,810 S2: That's an excellent question. I've got a number of thoughts. 641 00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:43,210 S2: One is maybe you need to think about the job description. 642 00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:46,930 S2: Maybe there's something not quite right in the description. So 643 00:31:46,930 --> 00:31:49,570 S2: you're getting the wrong candidates. I think what this person's 644 00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:52,530 S2: worried about Odessa is being rude, you know, interviewing an 645 00:31:52,530 --> 00:31:56,010 S2: excellent person, but they're just not the right person. I 646 00:31:56,290 --> 00:32:01,730 S2: don't think that's necessarily a major issue here. I think 647 00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:06,550 S2: people respond differently to interviews, but a quick 15 20 648 00:32:06,550 --> 00:32:11,260 S2: minute interview might feel rude. So actually interviewing the person 649 00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:16,380 S2: properly and examining their skillset from different angles might be 650 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:19,620 S2: the kindest thing you can do. If that's not what 651 00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:23,220 S2: you're concerned about and you really just need your time 652 00:32:23,220 --> 00:32:27,740 S2: back and you need to express that, well, I think 653 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:31,260 S2: you can be pretty candid. You can say, actually, we're 654 00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:33,860 S2: looking for somebody living in Sydney or actually we're looking 655 00:32:33,860 --> 00:32:36,900 S2: for someone who's got more experience in this area. I'm 656 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:39,100 S2: really sorry to waste your time. Love to keep your 657 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,340 S2: CV on our books in case something does turn up. 658 00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:45,180 S2: I just recommend Odessa. In all of these cases where 659 00:32:45,220 --> 00:32:48,740 S2: things are a bit uncomfortable and not quite working, being 660 00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:52,300 S2: as as kind and as clear as you can be. 661 00:32:52,740 --> 00:32:55,860 S1: And what about interviews more broadly? Helen, do you have 662 00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:58,340 S1: any go to questions? I might be getting you to 663 00:32:58,340 --> 00:32:59,620 S1: reveal your secrets now. 664 00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:01,300 S2: I have lots of I have lots of go to 665 00:33:01,340 --> 00:33:04,180 S2: questions and I'm not sure all of them are going 666 00:33:04,220 --> 00:33:06,880 S2: to reflect really well on the Odessa, so I'm a 667 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,120 S2: bit reluctant to give them all away, but I am 668 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,040 S2: very much a vibe person. I do get a strong 669 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,240 S2: sense of a person pretty quickly, and I am looking 670 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,000 S2: for some key things. I'm looking for enthusiasm. I'm looking 671 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,640 S2: for joy. I like people who are happy and positive 672 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,200 S2: and enthusiastic. I think you can teach technical skills skills, 673 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,280 S2: but you can't necessarily teach enthusiasm and passion and energy. 674 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,360 S2: So I look for those things. I look for people 675 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:45,120 S2: who are understated. I like someone who isn't quick to 676 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,120 S2: take credit for something that might have been the team 677 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,320 S2: that did it. I look for someone who quietly explains 678 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,440 S2: their CV and quietly explains their achievements. I'm particularly drawn 679 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,719 S2: to the introverts of the world. I don't quite know why, 680 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,650 S2: but they've served me very well. they usually considered and 681 00:34:05,650 --> 00:34:09,009 S2: passionate and thoughtful and kind. And they're the sorts of 682 00:34:09,010 --> 00:34:12,930 S2: things I'm looking for. I'm obviously interested in people who 683 00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:15,930 S2: have spent a bit of time studying, and I say 684 00:34:15,930 --> 00:34:19,730 S2: that as someone whose academic qualifications are very limited. I 685 00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:21,890 S2: went straight into work and then just kept working and 686 00:34:21,890 --> 00:34:25,250 S2: never quite got back to uni. To my shame, in 687 00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:27,770 S2: some ways I wished I had, but I think academic 688 00:34:27,770 --> 00:34:30,410 S2: qualifications and what they've studied and what they're passionate about 689 00:34:30,410 --> 00:34:35,450 S2: really matters. Um, my go to questions are often really informal. 690 00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:39,049 S2: You know, I really don't like the formality of interviews 691 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:42,130 S2: where you ask tricky questions and you mark people down 692 00:34:42,130 --> 00:34:45,129 S2: on whether they can identify a day they handle well 693 00:34:45,170 --> 00:34:46,690 S2: or the worst thing that ever happened to them. And 694 00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:48,530 S2: all those sorts of questions are not really of interest 695 00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:51,009 S2: to me. What I'm interested in is what they know 696 00:34:51,010 --> 00:34:54,810 S2: about the business and the company, and how they respond 697 00:34:54,810 --> 00:34:59,609 S2: to the conversation around what it is that FDA is 698 00:34:59,610 --> 00:35:01,770 S2: doing and where pH is going. 699 00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:05,629 S1: Last episode we had on the podcast, Michael De'ath, and 700 00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:09,029 S1: he was talking about how he had. I think it 701 00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:11,029 S1: was a friend of a friend who had just been 702 00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:14,589 S1: interviewed for a role. And the school principal did the 703 00:35:14,590 --> 00:35:18,470 S1: interview by taking a walk around the school grounds. Have 704 00:35:18,469 --> 00:35:23,510 S1: you ever done a job interview in a non standard setting? 705 00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:25,390 S2: I think all of my job interviews are a bit 706 00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:28,910 S2: like that. Uh. I'm always looking for new talent, so 707 00:35:29,350 --> 00:35:34,470 S2: I've done job interviews, sitting at restaurants, at tables, at 708 00:35:34,670 --> 00:35:39,310 S2: charity fundraisers, at birthday parties. You can tell a lot 709 00:35:39,310 --> 00:35:42,910 S2: about a person in an informal setting. All of my 710 00:35:43,070 --> 00:35:47,630 S2: interviews are wildly informal. Sometimes they're too informal, so I 711 00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:49,310 S2: have to go back and do another interview because I 712 00:35:49,310 --> 00:35:51,550 S2: feel like I didn't ask any of the key questions, 713 00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:55,750 S2: but I think that's correct. I think getting someone to 714 00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:59,029 S2: be themselves, to let down their guard, to not give 715 00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:04,239 S2: a pre-prepared answer, is absolutely critical. And I think I 716 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,760 S2: think that is worth something trying. If you are someone 717 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,960 S2: who finds that you often hire the wrong candidate, then 718 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,000 S2: I think try doing it completely differently. 719 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,280 S1: A couple of other points that have been written in 720 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,759 S1: are to always factor in nerves, to be aware that 721 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,920 S1: the person on the other side might be nervous and 722 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,040 S1: might stumble here or there, and to remember the power imbalance. 723 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,640 S2: Oh, well, I think that's true. And I it is 724 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,320 S2: really worth just pausing when you see someone just talking 725 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,000 S2: and talking and talking, that usually means they're just nervous. 726 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,520 S2: And you do have to take, you know, 10 or 15% 727 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,600 S2: off their job interview, you know, performance, if they've over 728 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,720 S2: explained themselves or used sentences that don't hang together or 729 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,319 S2: go off on tangents, that's usually nerves. I interview a 730 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,680 S2: lot with Jamila Rizvi in F.W., and she will sometimes 731 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,020 S2: slack me conversation and say, I think this person's really nervous. 732 00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:04,339 S2: And so then you just change tack. You know, you 733 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:06,820 S2: ask a light hearted question. You ask about where they're from. 734 00:37:06,820 --> 00:37:09,100 S2: You asked about the the dog that you can hear 735 00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,299 S2: in the background, or you just try to reduce their 736 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,620 S2: nerves so that you can get to the answers that 737 00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:18,819 S2: you know they can deliver. Uh, or the answers that 738 00:37:18,820 --> 00:37:22,500 S2: you need to hear. But I absolutely agree. Be very 739 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:26,899 S2: aware that most people in job interviews are a little 740 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:30,980 S2: bit nervous to very nervous. Odessa, how nervous were you 741 00:37:30,980 --> 00:37:32,140 S2: when I interviewed you? 742 00:37:32,180 --> 00:37:34,739 S1: I this might go to what you were saying about 743 00:37:34,739 --> 00:37:37,900 S1: them being quite informal. I didn't go in. I wasn't 744 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:41,420 S1: even sure it was an interview. Yes, I think it 745 00:37:41,420 --> 00:37:43,500 S1: was set up as a chat. Yeah. Yeah. 746 00:37:43,940 --> 00:37:46,819 S2: You're right, you're right. Um, I think that's right. I 747 00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:50,180 S2: think I think keeping them informal allows you to get 748 00:37:50,180 --> 00:37:55,580 S2: to the, the person behind the facade. Actually, that's not 749 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:58,750 S2: for everyone. If you're, you know, if you're going for 750 00:37:58,790 --> 00:38:02,790 S2: the CEO of an organization or the CTO or the CFO, 751 00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:08,989 S2: then I think those interview processes are understandably rigorous. But 752 00:38:08,989 --> 00:38:13,630 S2: but if you're in that stream, then you expect it 753 00:38:13,630 --> 00:38:18,150 S2: to be. And so you're usually not as nervous. You're 754 00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:20,629 S2: usually have done a lot of it by then and 755 00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:22,590 S2: have done a lot of interviews yourself. So it's a, 756 00:38:22,590 --> 00:38:26,430 S2: it's a different level of seniority. So you're prepared for it. 757 00:38:26,430 --> 00:38:29,070 S2: But what we're talking about here is sort of your 758 00:38:29,110 --> 00:38:36,830 S2: mid-career professional going for the next stretch. This podcast was 759 00:38:36,830 --> 00:38:39,189 S2: recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people of the 760 00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:42,910 S2: Aurora nation. It was produced by Odessa Blain, Susan Warby 761 00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:44,589 S2: and led by Paddy Andrews.