1 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,440 S1: It could be argued that no American president has been 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,240 S1: as enamored with violence as Donald Trump has. He appears 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,480 S1: to relish all of it the spectacle, the promise of 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,600 S1: it taking place, and lately its bloody reality. As at 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,919 S1: the time of recording, American bombs continue to drop on Iran. 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,880 S1: So is this the key to understanding Trump's motivation for 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,320 S1: all the other wars he's planning? I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris, 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,200 S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from the Age 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,559 S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald today, international and political editor 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,960 S1: Peter Hartcher on which country Donald Trump has his sights 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,440 S1: on next and whether Australia is now at war with Iran. 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,720 S1: It's March the 12th. Welcome back Peter. 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:57,920 S2: Always good to be with you, Samantha. 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,890 S1: Okay, well, let's launch in because you have got a 15 00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:05,490 S1: theory that addresses what's got to be the $600 million 16 00:01:05,490 --> 00:01:08,250 S1: question that everyone is asking right now, and that is 17 00:01:08,490 --> 00:01:10,930 S1: what is behind all of these wars that Donald Trump 18 00:01:10,930 --> 00:01:15,890 S1: has either instigated or has plans to instigate. What's your theory, Peter? 19 00:01:16,050 --> 00:01:20,610 S2: Well, I would say it's more like a $100 trillion question, Samantha. 20 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:25,729 S2: Which is roughly the total value of global GDP because 21 00:01:26,170 --> 00:01:30,209 S2: the global economy is affected and in some respects is 22 00:01:30,209 --> 00:01:34,290 S2: very vulnerable to this war in Iran. So just looking 23 00:01:34,290 --> 00:01:37,170 S2: at the facts before you get to the theory, the 24 00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:40,610 S2: facts are that when Donald Trump was still in the 25 00:01:40,610 --> 00:01:46,970 S2: process of getting Maduro, the Venezuelan president charged and tried 26 00:01:47,450 --> 00:01:51,130 S2: in a New York court, he was already talking about 27 00:01:51,130 --> 00:01:55,250 S2: going to war in Iran. When the war in Iran 28 00:01:55,250 --> 00:01:59,050 S2: had been running for just one week. So last weekend, 29 00:01:59,050 --> 00:02:04,860 S2: Donald Trump talked openly about war on Cuba. He addressed 30 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:08,020 S2: a group of leaders of nations from the Western Hemisphere. 31 00:02:08,020 --> 00:02:12,860 S2: So South America, Central America, Caribbean leaders, and said Cuba 32 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:15,140 S2: is in its last days as you know it. 33 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:17,820 S3: So looking forward to the great change that will soon 34 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:22,060 S3: be coming to Cuba. Cuba's at the end of the line. 35 00:02:22,460 --> 00:02:24,579 S3: They're very much at the end of the line. 36 00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:26,460 S2: It's the end of Cuba as it is. 37 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:31,060 S3: They have a bad philosophy. They have a bad regime. 38 00:02:31,060 --> 00:02:33,740 S3: That's been bad for a long time. 39 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:40,220 S2: So very clear. Planning to change the regime or at 40 00:02:40,260 --> 00:02:44,220 S2: least kill the leader in Cuba. And so I just 41 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:48,380 S2: was asking myself, what's the rush? You're doing one big 42 00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:51,100 S2: operation and you're you haven't even finished it. And you're 43 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:54,139 S2: talking about the next. That was the Venezuelan one into Iran, 44 00:02:54,139 --> 00:02:59,380 S2: and now you're in Iran. Missiles are flying The world 45 00:02:59,380 --> 00:03:05,220 S2: economy is teetering. And you're talking about Cuba. And then 46 00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:07,579 S2: in that very same speech to those leaders where he's 47 00:03:07,580 --> 00:03:12,700 S2: talking about Cuba being next, he talks to them about 48 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:14,780 S2: the purpose of that particular gathering, which was to launch 49 00:03:14,780 --> 00:03:18,420 S2: an initiative called The Shield of the Americas, an American 50 00:03:18,419 --> 00:03:20,980 S2: led military operation to. 51 00:03:21,620 --> 00:03:25,940 S3: To eradicate the criminal cartels plaguing our region. And you 52 00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:28,100 S3: have a lot of it. One of the things which. 53 00:03:28,419 --> 00:03:32,339 S2: As Pete Hegseth, his war secretary, has warned, could involve 54 00:03:32,340 --> 00:03:36,380 S2: the imposition of US forces into those countries against their will. 55 00:03:37,020 --> 00:03:40,060 S2: And again, Trump was there to promote that. So what's 56 00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:43,180 S2: the haste in all this? He's only been in power 57 00:03:43,180 --> 00:03:46,500 S2: a little over 400 days. He's still got 1400 days 58 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:50,700 S2: left in this term. This continuous flurry before one is finished, 59 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:54,339 S2: another is launched and then another. So I did have 60 00:03:54,340 --> 00:03:57,340 S2: a suspicion. But Samantha, it didn't become a theory until 61 00:03:57,340 --> 00:04:01,869 S2: I talked to an American presidential and political historian and 62 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:05,790 S2: a professor of political management at GW George Washington University 63 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:09,430 S2: in the US. Matt Dallek is his name, and he 64 00:04:09,430 --> 00:04:13,590 S2: said it's pretty straightforward. His theory or his explanation, which 65 00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:17,590 S2: does seem to make sense of this, is that Trump 66 00:04:18,470 --> 00:04:25,430 S2: traditionally likes a crisis. He likes to generate a crisis, 67 00:04:26,710 --> 00:04:29,270 S2: but then quickly to move from one drama to the next, 68 00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:34,150 S2: partly to keep the globe's attention and the electorate's attention 69 00:04:34,150 --> 00:04:37,270 S2: on him, which works very much for him because it 70 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:41,830 S2: serves his purpose of dominating the agenda. The political space, 71 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:46,070 S2: the debate and dominating his political opponents. But it also 72 00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:53,190 S2: serves his apparent pathological need to use violence, as is 73 00:04:53,190 --> 00:04:56,190 S2: it a source of dominance, perhaps. Is it a source 74 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,000 S2: Of theater, entertainment and political attention getting. Is it a source. 75 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,680 S2: Of some political. Some personal satisfaction and need to dominate. 76 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,680 S2: Don't know about that, but what Matt Dallek explained is 77 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,839 S2: that Trump. Traditionally hops from one crisis to the next, 78 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,240 S2: partly to keep attention. But also as a way of 79 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,880 S2: drawing away attention from problems in the crisis of the moment. Venezuela, 80 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,000 S2: for example. All he did was change the leader, the deputy. 81 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,880 S2: Stepped up. The regime hasn't fundamentally changed. Venezuela's problems are 82 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,159 S2: not solved. It's made it more pliable to the US 83 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,800 S2: and its promise to open its oil once again to 84 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,600 S2: the US. But that's it. Otherwise, it's very much unfinished business. 85 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,520 S2: Then you get into Iran, which is still in the 86 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,640 S2: throes of a hot war, and he's talking about Cuba. 87 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:52,360 S2: So Matt Dalek's theory or explanation fits the facts that 88 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:58,490 S2: he just wants a constant procession of war, of dramas, 89 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:03,490 S2: to generate attention and to keep the initiative politically and 90 00:06:03,490 --> 00:06:04,250 S2: to dominate. 91 00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:08,450 S1: And so obviously, Trump has a lot that he would 92 00:06:08,450 --> 00:06:11,490 S1: want to possibly distract from. Of course, there's a cost 93 00:06:11,490 --> 00:06:13,930 S1: of living crisis. The price of oil, of course, is 94 00:06:13,930 --> 00:06:16,250 S1: going up because of what's happening in Iran. There's obviously 95 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:20,050 S1: the Epstein files that he, you know, really wishes was 96 00:06:20,089 --> 00:06:24,609 S1: behind him. And he seems to have this fondness, I guess, 97 00:06:24,610 --> 00:06:28,130 S1: for certainly for spectacle, but possibly for violent spectacle. And 98 00:06:28,130 --> 00:06:33,089 S1: you've written about his plans for the celebration of United 99 00:06:33,089 --> 00:06:36,690 S1: States's independence from Britain. And it's got a. Well, you 100 00:06:36,690 --> 00:06:38,529 S1: say he's going to be turning the white House into 101 00:06:38,529 --> 00:06:41,490 S1: a cage match. So I guess just tell us about that, Peter. 102 00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:46,850 S2: Yes. So a year ago, Trump did say he did 103 00:06:46,850 --> 00:06:53,089 S2: promise that for the 250th birthday of America, he would 104 00:06:53,130 --> 00:06:57,180 S2: host a UFC fight at the white House courtesy of 105 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:03,500 S2: his friend, old mate donor collaborator Dana White, who runs 106 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:07,900 S2: the UFC franchise. Ultimate Fighting Championship. For anybody who doesn't 107 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:12,580 S2: know about this franchise, it's a sort of a a 108 00:07:12,620 --> 00:07:17,700 S2: community unto itself. Uh, very popular with young men, has 109 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:22,180 S2: a huge international following. And it's known for being hyper violent. 110 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:25,700 S2: And he did promise that. And on the weekend, the 111 00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:29,260 S2: same weekend, when he's talking about the shield of America's 112 00:07:29,260 --> 00:07:34,340 S2: and military intrusions into Latin, South America, Caribbean, Central America, 113 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,900 S2: the same weekend, he's talking about Cuba being next, the 114 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:39,860 S2: same weekend. He's still trying to manage a war in Iran. 115 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:44,220 S2: He announces the details and the UFC announces the details 116 00:07:44,220 --> 00:07:47,060 S2: of this event at the white House coming up, uh, 117 00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:49,700 S2: in June. And it's, uh oh, by the way, just 118 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:52,140 S2: happens to the event, just happens to be held on 119 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:55,700 S2: Trump's birthday, and he'll be hosting it at the white House. 120 00:07:56,060 --> 00:07:58,580 S2: It's going to be a series of six UFC fights. 121 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:04,620 S2: They're planning 5000 people in stadium style seating on the 122 00:08:04,620 --> 00:08:08,140 S2: South Lawn of the white House, with explosions of music 123 00:08:08,260 --> 00:08:13,620 S2: and riots of color and the whole spectacle of UFC. 124 00:08:14,140 --> 00:08:18,020 S2: So this is the plan for celebrating the US Declaration 125 00:08:18,020 --> 00:08:18,860 S2: of Independence. 126 00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:22,340 S1: After the break. 127 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:25,620 S2: It would be naive of us to say that we 128 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:27,900 S2: are not in a state of hostilities with Iran. Already 129 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:31,420 S2: we have been at their instigation and we need to know. 130 00:08:31,460 --> 00:08:34,900 S2: We need to remember who our enemies are and who 131 00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:35,620 S2: our friends are. 132 00:08:41,540 --> 00:08:43,740 S1: But just tell us, Peter, I guess for some context, 133 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:45,980 S1: how much does this depart from, say, the manner in 134 00:08:45,980 --> 00:08:49,940 S1: which previous American presidents would celebrate America's birthday? Because I 135 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:55,150 S1: don't imagine, uh, bare chested fighters emerging from the Oval 136 00:08:55,150 --> 00:08:57,470 S1: Office was part of that, but I wasn't there, so. 137 00:08:57,710 --> 00:09:02,429 S2: Well, you're right, this is a big departure. Uh, traditionally, 138 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:08,270 S2: it's been celebrated. With presidential speeches, parades, military parades. It's 139 00:09:08,270 --> 00:09:14,910 S2: been celebrated with barbecues. Presidential picnics. John F Kennedy, in 140 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:18,069 S2: a speech he gave in 1962 at the celebration of 141 00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:22,589 S2: Independence Day, talked about the importance of Independence Day as 142 00:09:22,590 --> 00:09:26,910 S2: a revolution in human affairs. This year, we have to 143 00:09:26,950 --> 00:09:31,830 S2: wonder if this celebration marks a regression in human affairs. It's, 144 00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:37,030 S2: you know, this theatrical display of violence for Trump's benefit. 145 00:09:37,030 --> 00:09:40,270 S2: But with all the cameras and all the violence, in 146 00:09:40,270 --> 00:09:43,429 S2: this case, hand to hand combat rather than state on 147 00:09:43,429 --> 00:09:48,110 S2: state combat does seem to be all of a piece 148 00:09:48,309 --> 00:09:53,760 S2: with Donald Trump's approach to political display, political theater, the 149 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,280 S2: conduct of politics and policy itself, the need for constant 150 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,960 S2: displays of violence. And when he's not actually conducting violence, 151 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,920 S2: he's promoting it or fantasizing about it. For example, in 152 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,160 S2: his last term, in his first term as president, he 153 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,679 S2: urged the US military, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, 154 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:22,800 S2: Mark Milley, to shoot American protesters in the legs. Mark Milley, 155 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,960 S2: of course, declined. It's not the military's job to go 156 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,000 S2: around shooting American citizens in America in this term, he 157 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,520 S2: told a meeting of 800 assembled generals and admirals that 158 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,280 S2: they should use America's cities as training grounds for their 159 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:43,000 S2: combat techniques. Again, the military has politely declined that invitation. 160 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,520 S2: He has thought about using the Insurrection Act to allow 161 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,280 S2: the military that's been much speculated to operate on US 162 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:56,210 S2: soil against US citizens. that hasn't happened. He has tried, 163 00:10:56,610 --> 00:11:00,570 S2: you know, in other ways to to operate. Political violence 164 00:11:00,570 --> 00:11:04,050 S2: in America on American soil. The Ice raids are the 165 00:11:04,050 --> 00:11:07,250 S2: closest thing. Well, they were quite violent. And two American 166 00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:12,810 S2: citizens were murdered by Ice agents. Outcomes which Trump initially 167 00:11:12,809 --> 00:11:16,530 S2: applauded before realizing the political consequences and then backing off. 168 00:11:17,290 --> 00:11:21,370 S2: But Matt Dallek, the political historian, makes the point that 169 00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:26,370 S2: Trump seems to have found executing political violence domestically is 170 00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:29,850 S2: too hidebound to rule bound, and it's too difficult to 171 00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:32,250 S2: go through the Congress and do it at home. So 172 00:11:32,290 --> 00:11:34,730 S2: hence the president, the man who said he was the 173 00:11:34,730 --> 00:11:37,690 S2: president for peace, who would never start a war, he 174 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:43,729 S2: would only end wars, suddenly becomes this constant warmonger, waging 175 00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:48,730 S2: new and more conflicts at a feverish pace. And, uh, 176 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:54,340 S2: you know, that Independence Day plan for a UFC fight 177 00:11:56,059 --> 00:11:57,980 S2: on the South Lawn of the white House, and the 178 00:11:57,980 --> 00:12:02,140 S2: huge spectacle does seem to be a metaphor for his 179 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:06,140 S2: presidency and the importance he places on violence not necessarily 180 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:11,380 S2: to get an outcome, but to produce a theatrical effect. 181 00:12:11,780 --> 00:12:15,180 S1: And I imagine a lot of Australian listeners will be 182 00:12:15,179 --> 00:12:19,059 S1: thinking as I'm thinking that, okay, it's one thing, you know, 183 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,420 S1: we can laugh about bare chested fighters coming out of 184 00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:25,300 S1: the Oval Office to celebrate America's birthday and how ridiculous 185 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:29,300 S1: this is. But I guess the question is, is Australia 186 00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:33,340 S1: now become a target for Iran as a result of 187 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:37,740 S1: what Trump's doing? Because I'm thinking about Anthony Albanese's announcement 188 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:41,100 S1: on Tuesday that the Australian government is providing missiles to 189 00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:44,140 S1: the United Arab Emirates, and he has since denounced that 190 00:12:44,179 --> 00:12:48,340 S1: Australia is also sending 85 ADF personnel to the UAE. 191 00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:51,060 S1: Not to mention, of course, the three members of the 192 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,700 S1: ADF who were on board a US submarine that sank 193 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:56,100 S1: an Iranian warship earlier this month. And then we've got 194 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,780 S1: the five members of the Iranian women's soccer team who 195 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:03,340 S1: just escaped their Iranian handlers on the Gold Coast a 196 00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:06,660 S1: few days ago to take refuge here. So, Peter, have 197 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:07,819 S1: we entered this war? 198 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:16,660 S2: Well, partly yes, through the UAE. Yes. Um, that's the 199 00:13:16,660 --> 00:13:22,580 S2: bald truth. The UAE has requested, apparently with full cognizance 200 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:27,060 S2: and approval from Washington, has asked Australia for help defending 201 00:13:27,059 --> 00:13:31,860 S2: itself against Iran. And Australia has agreed. And this position 202 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:36,460 S2: has been supported by both the major parties in Australia 203 00:13:36,460 --> 00:13:40,700 S2: coalition and the current government. Only the Greens have objected 204 00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:44,660 S2: to this, but the. You know, the the contribution is 205 00:13:44,860 --> 00:13:50,949 S2: is minimal. It's one of Australia's six Wedgetail Awac planes, 206 00:13:50,950 --> 00:13:56,670 S2: which is capable of battlefield management and surveillance and coordination, 207 00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:59,430 S2: and a supply of some air to air missiles to 208 00:13:59,470 --> 00:14:02,910 S2: allow the UAE to shoot down incoming Iranian missiles or 209 00:14:02,910 --> 00:14:07,310 S2: drones and the crews to operate those. It's a good 210 00:14:07,309 --> 00:14:10,150 S2: talking point for the Greens to get excited about, but 211 00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:13,230 S2: it is a pretty minimal contribution. I'd just add one 212 00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:16,030 S2: more point, and this is something that governments in Australia 213 00:14:16,030 --> 00:14:18,949 S2: have operated for decades. But and it's not a secret, 214 00:14:18,950 --> 00:14:21,950 S2: but they just don't talk it up, which is that 215 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:26,990 S2: the AminaB air base in the UAE, the Australian Air Force, 216 00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:30,430 S2: the Australian military has operated through there for decades. The 217 00:14:30,430 --> 00:14:34,870 S2: UAE has been a very willing host. Now, Australians don't 218 00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:37,510 S2: know that. But for that relationship to exist and the 219 00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:42,670 S2: political trade, economic relationship is also pretty healthy. One means 220 00:14:42,670 --> 00:14:44,190 S2: that when they turn to Australia and say, well, can 221 00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:47,110 S2: you give us a hand defending ourselves against these thousands 222 00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:51,320 S2: of Iranian missiles and drones. You can see that knowing 223 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,960 S2: that fact of the history of cooperation with the Air Force, 224 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,120 S2: that it would be pretty churlish to say, well, no, 225 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,320 S2: bugger off. The other point would be in support of 226 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,240 S2: this deployment, Samantha, is that is that in Australia's interests 227 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,000 S2: to allow the early resumption of commercial air traffic through 228 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,840 S2: the UAE, through Dubai, Abu Dhabi? Is it in Australia's 229 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,760 S2: interests to see the resumption of oil through the Straits 230 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,040 S2: of Hormuz? Not just oil, but LNG, fertiliser and all 231 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,160 S2: the rest? And if you think the answer is yes, 232 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,520 S2: then you would have to say surely then it's in 233 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,960 S2: the national interest for Australia to be making this this 234 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,520 S2: contribution in response to a request for support while it's 235 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,280 S2: under attack. 236 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,120 S1: For sure. I can see how it's in Australia's interest, 237 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,240 S1: but we know that Anthony Albanese and the Defence Department, 238 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,040 S1: they've been at pains to say that we're sort of 239 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,680 S1: not wholly involved in this conflict. You know, we're not. 240 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,250 S1: Protagonist Albanese has just said what we're doing, of course, is, 241 00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:51,810 S1: like you've just said, providing for the defense of the 242 00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:57,370 S1: UAE and of Australian citizens. He's saying the missiles that 243 00:15:57,370 --> 00:15:59,810 S1: they've sent can only be literally used to hit drones 244 00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:02,490 S1: and missiles. So it's purely defensive. But I just want 245 00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:05,210 S1: to push you on this a little bit because I'm thinking, well, 246 00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:09,890 S1: the Iranians do. They distinguish between, of course, defensive moves 247 00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:12,770 S1: and offensive moves. I'm just going to quote here from 248 00:16:12,770 --> 00:16:16,050 S1: defense analyst Michael Shoebridge who had it in our mastheads 249 00:16:16,050 --> 00:16:18,810 S1: just yesterday. You know, we're best just admitting that we're 250 00:16:18,810 --> 00:16:20,650 S1: now a part of this war, not just sitting in 251 00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:24,690 S1: some quarantine corner. Offense and defense are just different sides 252 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:26,610 S1: of the coin of war. Like, would that not be 253 00:16:26,650 --> 00:16:28,050 S1: how the Iranians see it? 254 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:32,610 S2: Well, the Iranians have burst out in a frenzy of 255 00:16:32,610 --> 00:16:37,650 S2: violence against all sorts of targets, including civilian targets, many 256 00:16:37,650 --> 00:16:42,050 S2: civilian targets throughout the Gulf states. So, of course, they'd 257 00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:45,330 S2: see it as a legitimate target. The justification for hitting 258 00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:48,900 S2: all the Gulf states is that they host US bases, 259 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:53,900 S2: therefore they're targets. So if an Australian Air Force plane 260 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:58,180 S2: turns up operating out of the UAE, it's of course 261 00:16:58,180 --> 00:17:00,940 S2: it's a target for the Iranians. And if they get 262 00:17:00,940 --> 00:17:04,020 S2: the opportunity and they have the munitions left, they'd be 263 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:06,659 S2: very happy to destroy it. They'd be very happy to 264 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:10,220 S2: kill the Australians. But why wouldn't they? I mean, we 265 00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:15,379 S2: know that they've been operating hostile efforts against Australia, even 266 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:19,300 S2: here on our own soil for a long time. Last year, 267 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:24,140 S2: the Iranian ambassador was expelled by the Australian government because 268 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:28,379 S2: the government had uncovered that two terrorist attacks against Jewish 269 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:32,980 S2: targets in Melbourne had been orchestrated by the Iranian government. 270 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:36,820 S2: They have been waging undeclared war on our country. So 271 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:39,379 S2: for us to enter in the into the defence of 272 00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:44,100 S2: the UAE against Iran is really just simply a continuation 273 00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:46,460 S2: of the war that they had declared by other means 274 00:17:47,020 --> 00:17:50,460 S2: that we're now joining in kinetic means in a very 275 00:17:50,619 --> 00:17:54,500 S2: low risk and contained way. It doesn't compare with previous 276 00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:57,980 S2: Australian engagements where it's joined with the US, for example, 277 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,020 S2: in Iraq, where we sent ground troops. Australia's not talking 278 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:05,100 S2: about and will not send ground troops anywhere near Iran 279 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:07,939 S2: in this deployment. It would be naive of us to 280 00:18:07,980 --> 00:18:10,540 S2: say that we are not in a state of hostilities 281 00:18:10,540 --> 00:18:14,460 S2: with Iran already. We have been at their instigation. This 282 00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:16,780 S2: is part of Australia's response to that, and we need 283 00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:19,500 S2: to know. We need to remember who our enemies are 284 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:21,300 S2: and who our friends are. 285 00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:25,620 S1: Well, it's obviously a fast moving situation. So thank you 286 00:18:25,619 --> 00:18:27,140 S1: so much, Peter, for your time. 287 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:30,100 S2: Always a pleasure to chat these things over with you, Samantha. 288 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:40,980 S1: In other news, today Melbourne has been crowned the best 289 00:18:40,980 --> 00:18:44,460 S1: city in the world for 2026 by Time Out. It's 290 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:47,070 S1: the first time an Australian city, has taken the top 291 00:18:47,070 --> 00:18:50,350 S1: spot on the 50 Best Cities list, with the Victorian 292 00:18:50,350 --> 00:18:56,110 S1: capital beating London and New York. 2.5 million Australians are 293 00:18:56,109 --> 00:18:59,270 S1: in the early stages of kidney disease but don't know it, 294 00:18:59,590 --> 00:19:02,830 S1: a situation which will not only impact their lives but 295 00:19:02,830 --> 00:19:06,310 S1: threatens to overrun the nation's health system in the coming years. 296 00:19:07,670 --> 00:19:10,869 S1: And popular ranges of rat and mouse poisons will be 297 00:19:10,869 --> 00:19:14,030 S1: restricted for use within weeks and could be pulled from 298 00:19:14,030 --> 00:19:18,030 S1: supermarket shelves. To find out more, go to our websites 299 00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:24,030 S1: The Age or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. 300 00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:27,470 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 301 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:31,350 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 302 00:19:31,390 --> 00:19:34,310 S1: our show, follow The Morning Edition and leave a review 303 00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:37,709 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.