S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Paul chuckle filling in for
S1: Jacqueline Maley. And it's Friday, February 28th. Remember Anthony Albanese's
S1: Copacabana House drama the PM was dragged in the media
S1: for buying a $4.3 million home on the New South
S1: Wales Central Coast, in the middle of a cost of
S1: living crisis. Not a good look. Well, now the opposition
S1: leader is facing questions of his own. This week, a
S1: national affairs editor, James Massola, has done a bit of
S1: dig in, and he's revealed Peter Dutton's extensive and rich
S1: history of property dealings. At the same time, News Corp
S1: has published allegations about Dutton's share trading in the middle
S1: of the global financial crisis. Aside from denying he's done
S1: anything dodgy, the opposition leader has also argued that the
S1: information has come from Labor's so-called dirt unit. Today, our
S1: intrepid reporter James Massola joins us to talk through these
S1: stories and delves into this mysterious dirt unit. James, how
S1: are you?
S2: I'm well, Paul, thanks for the introduction.
S1: Now we we don't like when you get too big
S1: a head for breaking a big story, but unfortunately, this
S1: whole podcast is this is your podcast. Keen to talk
S1: about the information that you've put into the public domain
S1: this week and set the agenda for the news week
S1: week before an election campaign, possibly so an important week
S1: to set the agenda. Give us a bit of the
S1: background before we get into the nitty gritty. Why did
S1: you start looking into Peter Dutton's property portfolio? When did
S1: you do it?
S2: Look, the why is pretty simple. Paul. As listeners would recall,
S2: last year the PM was under a heck of a
S2: lot of scrutiny after perhaps unwisely purchasing a $4.3 million
S2: beach house in Copacabana on the New South Wales Central Coast.
S2: Colleagues were questioning his judgment and the timing. And in
S2: the middle of a cost of living crisis, what is
S2: he thinking? Yada yada yada. And I thought, well, as
S2: we get closer and closer to the election, there's a
S2: kind of role for the Fourth Estate for the media
S2: to play in. Holding all politicians, particularly, would be alternative
S2: prime ministers up to scrutiny. And I had a bit
S2: of time, so I started on a couple of projects.
S2: One was looking into Peter Dutton's property and houses. He's
S2: all politicians have a register of members interests. They declare,
S2: you know, their shares and their homes and what have you.
S2: His was particularly rich, I thought. And then the further
S2: I went, you know, the deeper into it I went,
S2: you know, the further back I went. And I just
S2: kept finding, I thought pretty interesting things. What did you.
S1: Find? What are your main takeouts.
S2: Okay. So it's pretty well known that Peter Dutton's owned
S2: a few properties over the years. You know, it's a
S2: matter of public record. From his register at peak, I
S2: believe it was five. What I worked out by going
S2: back through ASIC records, that is, company records through real
S2: estate websites, um, through land title searches, things like that.
S2: And also, of course, the register is that he's owned
S2: 26 properties over the course of his life, bought and
S2: sold 26 over the course of his life since he
S2: was 19 years old. The total value of those is
S2: about $30 million in terms of transaction value.
S3: With an election looming, the political temperature is starting to
S3: rise as Labour accuses Peter Dutton of hiding assets in
S3: a private trust.
S4: The government is collapsing and they're throwing dirt from 1516
S4: years ago. Why not have raised these issues before?
S2: The total outlay was $12 million. The total sale prices
S2: have been around $18.8 million. Now that's you know, that's
S2: a $6.8 million difference. That's a big difference. Not all
S2: of that is profit. Of course there's taxes and stamp
S2: duty and what have you that he would have paid.
S2: But he's had a pretty successful career as a property developer,
S2: starting out with his dad. Over the last three and
S2: a half decades. And I thought that was interesting. And
S2: of course, he's also been a strident defender of negative
S2: gearing tax, you know, remaining the tax system remaining as
S2: it is. Same with capital gains.
S1: And James, why is that relevant that he's a supporter
S1: politically of property tax breaks.
S2: Well pretty simple. I mean if you're an investor, if
S2: you own 3 or 4 properties, if you're the rent
S2: you're being paid is less than the mortgage payments you
S2: have to make. The difference in those monies, let's say
S2: you're getting $24,000 a year in rent, and your mortgage
S2: is costing you 35. That $11,000 difference is your gap,
S2: and that's an $11,000 tax deduction, for example. Now, if
S2: you do that over three or 4 or 5 properties
S2: as a tax break, that suddenly gets to be quite lucrative.
S1: Basically, the Parliament's full of property investors. Every time one
S1: of these stories is written about how many properties Hmps owns,
S1: it's clear that the median property ownership in this place
S1: where we're sitting today on this Thursday is much higher
S1: than the public average. Greens and Labour MPs as well,
S1: and Malcolm Turnbull and Kevin Rudd were both far, far wealthier.
S1: So why does Dutton's property ownership matter at all? Australians
S1: are very into property investment. Many see it as a virtue.
S1: Who cares?
S2: I don't think there's anything wrong with Peter Dutton investing
S2: in property. Working hard. He clearly has worked very hard
S2: for a long time making money from it. I mean,
S2: he's availing himself of the breaks or advantages that the
S2: tax system offers. Why I think this story was worth
S2: writing is that we didn't know a lot of this
S2: about the alternative PM. There's a lot of things that
S2: we don't know about the alternative. PM he's quite a
S2: private man, you know, and I think in the lead
S2: up to the election in particular, is the point or
S2: the time at which you must, as a journalist, stress
S2: test the alternative PM and, you know, look into his past.
S2: And are there any skeletons in the closet? Who is
S2: this guy? I mean, for example, in the story, Paul, um,
S2: I mentioned that Mr. Dutton had owned two properties with
S2: a woman named Susan Britton. Now, she's never been named publicly.
S2: That's Peter Dutton, as far as I can tell. That's
S2: Peter Dutton's first wife. They were married for about six months.
S2: By the looks of it. They were together for a
S2: few years now. Again, there's no great scandal there. There's
S2: no scandal there at all, really, but it's information that
S2: hasn't been in the public domain. Another example of that,
S2: Peter Dutton has, I believe it's four brothers and sisters.
S2: As far as I can tell. They've never been named anywhere.
S2: They've never appeared in a photo with him, and that's fine.
S2: You know, they probably just private people. But I think,
S2: you know, when you get to that moment of choice,
S2: as we're soon to get to, people want to know
S2: about who the person who is, who is going to
S2: be or is putting themselves forward to be the PM
S2: of this country.
S1: And James, there was another story this week that was
S1: broken by news.com.au journalist steam journalist Samantha maiden that detailed
S1: accusations about Dutton's share trading. The day before labor announced
S1: a bank bailout in 2009 during the GFC. I should
S1: say they were recorded on the register on that day,
S1: but we don't actually know the day that the trades
S1: were done. What's that all about that story?
S2: Okay, so the allegation from labor and, you know, Andrew Charlton,
S2: the labor backbencher, was on the 7.30 program on Wednesday night.
S5: Now you were an adviser to the Rudd Government during
S5: the global financial crisis. First of all, your reaction when
S5: you when you learnt that Peter Dutton had bought and
S5: sold bank shares during the crisis?
S6: My jaw fell to the floor. Why is that? At
S6: a time of national crisis when every Australian leader was
S6: focused on the national interest. He was focused on making money.
S6: He was focused on his own interests and he in.
S2: Fact said, you know, this information about the share trading
S2: and the which has prompted the questions about the timing
S2: had actually been worked out by labor or researched by labor,
S2: and had been sort of pushed around, if you like,
S2: or shopped around for a while leading up to the
S2: publication of that story.
S5: What you're saying is the government had access to this information,
S5: was in possession of that. Anthony Albanese was in possession
S5: of this information before. It was before it appeared in
S5: the media.
S6: Absolutely. I mean, it is the government's job at a
S6: time when we're all looking at register of members interests
S6: to look at this information.
S1: What was he doing? Andrew Charlton, why did he. Why?
S1: Why the hell did he admit that he learnt this
S1: information from the Prime Minister's office? Surely they all just
S1: would have had their own jaws on the floor. As
S1: he said a number of times in that interview.
S2: Yeah, it wasn't the greatest interview, I have to say, Paul,
S2: was it? He went out there to try and frame
S2: Peter Dutton and ended up framing himself.
S5: If it was of such enormous ethical importance as you suggest,
S5: why not release it that day? Why save it up?
S6: I'm not sure it was saved up at all. I
S6: think it was released promptly.
S5: Well, how? How promptly? When did you become aware of it?
S6: Reasonably shortly before it was.
S2: Look, putting aside that awkward interview what you know, as
S2: you touched on what his central point was, is that
S2: Dutton had potentially received inside information about the bank guarantee
S2: coming through from the Rudd government and had sort of
S2: enriched himself, bought shares in banks when they were at
S2: a low ebb a day before the bank guarantee comes
S2: through and pushes the share prices up. Now, as you say,
S2: there are problems with that theory or allegation because he
S2: may have bought them 30 days before MPs get 30
S2: days to declare he may have bought them 60 days
S2: before and was declaring it late. We don't actually know now.
S2: It is correct that Peter Dutton could find the exact
S2: dates and release those dates. It would be great to
S2: see that it if it you know, if it was
S2: around the time of the bank guarantee. It's not a
S2: great look, but conversely, it's also not silly of Dutton
S2: to have been purchasing, you know, bank shares, the big
S2: four in particular.
S1: Um, at a low ebb.
S2: Yeah. I mean, that's you know, you could argue that's
S2: just a smart investment strategy. Indeed. That's what he's saying.
S2: It's just a smart investment strategy. I'm sure other people
S2: did that. So on and so forth.
S1: Quite a few Labour MPs have put on social media
S1: this week. Just jokes about the the opposition leader's wealth.
S1: And it strikes me that Labour is trying to change
S1: the narrative about his background. He's the kind of only
S1: well-known public narrative about Dutton, I'd say, is that he's
S1: he's a tough arse, that he was a former cop,
S1: that he was a Home affairs and immigration minister, and
S1: his tough on crime, tough on national security. And there's
S1: a suburban authenticity there, I think, in the mix. Do
S1: you think that labor could have any success in using
S1: this information about his property holdings, but also his share
S1: trading to do anything to dent that perception of Peter Dutton?
S1: Or is it is that perception too baked into the
S1: public consciousness to actually shift? Look, it.
S2: May be too well baked in, as you say, but
S2: I think I mean, to your exact point, what labor
S2: is trying to do is reshape public perceptions to round
S2: the man out at a minimum and say, actually, here
S2: are some other things that you did not know in
S2: terms of this share story. And I guess to some extent,
S2: maybe my story performed that function as well. Peter Dutton
S2: has sort of, throughout his career, and particularly since becoming
S2: opposition leader, really painted himself as a kind of everyman,
S2: a knockabout bloke, a Queenslander, a former cop who's worked hard,
S2: you know, wife and three kids, really kind of a
S2: suburban bloke, if you like Mr. Average. Nothing like Malcolm Turnbull,
S2: for example, who's seen as a bit of a, you know,
S2: the archetypal or stereotypical wealthy liberal and not from that
S2: kind of background of, you know, at least schooling sort
S2: of privilege and what have you. That Tony Abbott, for example,
S2: was from. Now, what these stories about his wealth do is,
S2: I think, to some extent function as a bit of
S2: a Rorschach test for voters. Like, here's the idea is
S2: here's some more information. You didn't know this, this and
S2: this about him. And, you know, people can kind of
S2: decide for themselves, is he this knockabout bloke or is
S2: he this wealthy property investor? You know, is he is
S2: he to be admired for working from the age of
S2: 19 and buying properties, or has he had, you know,
S2: help from daddy? I say that in inverted commas to
S2: get ahead. Um, you know, these are questions, I guess
S2: worth considering.
S1: Yeah. So tell us what Dutton is said to in
S1: response to both of these stories, really because he held
S1: a press conference on Wednesday.
S2: Yeah. So he's done that kind of classic deflection thing
S2: where he's, you know, framed it as labour dirt. It's
S2: not therefore valid information or worth reporting.
S4: Now the Prime Minister's office is shopping around dirt sheets
S4: at the moment, transactions that go back to when I
S4: was 20 years of age. I've conducted myself with integrity
S4: at every moment of my life.
S2: I do think both stories were worth reporting. You know,
S2: mine was not in any way connected to the Labor Party.
S2: I do my own research, but he he kind of
S2: pushed back. He said, look, does the PM, you know,
S2: does labor oppose people having aspiration? Does it oppose people
S2: working hard and building houses and building their wealth over time?
S4: I'm proud of what we achieved. I didn't grow up
S4: with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents worked hard.
S4: They instilled in us a couple of things.
S2: And similarly with probably more specifically and more sharply with
S2: the shares story, he's just argued, it's sort of a
S2: it's a what a 15, 16 year old beat up,
S2: you know, from Labor's dirt unit and don't pay any
S2: attention to it.
S1: Just on this share issue, I was talking to someone
S1: who was involved in the in the story from on
S1: the labor side on Wednesday night, who suggested that this
S1: story probably won't have legs and won't kick into the
S1: election campaign unless there's some smoking gun or new piece
S1: of information that puts more pressure on Dutton to explain
S1: whether he may have had inside information, which he denies. James,
S1: is there any potential for an inquiry here or any
S1: further questions being asked in different creative ways? Is this
S1: story going to stay in the news?
S2: Look, I think the smoking gun point is the correct one.
S2: At this point. We don't know if there is a
S2: smoking gun. We don't know if there will be more
S2: information coming out. I think this idea of releasing the
S2: minutes from the shadow cabinet or the shadow work from
S2: 15 years ago, is a bit far fetched. If there
S2: was going to be an investigation in the first instance,
S2: it would be the Privileges Committee, which kind of oversees
S2: MPs declaration on the Register of Members interests. But to
S2: be honest, they don't have a lot of power now.
S2: The other thing I'd like to sort of say, in
S2: defence of Peter Dutton, if you like, is it wasn't
S2: a state secret that the Rudd government, I was here
S2: in Parliament House at the time that the Rudd government
S2: was looking at doing a bank guarantee. You know, other
S2: countries around were doing it. It was widely canvassed in
S2: the news. It was easily forecastable that such a guarantee
S2: would strengthen the position of the banks and therefore strengthen
S2: the position of their share price. So I don't think,
S2: you know.
S1: It's unlikely to be the case that there was a
S1: special briefing in which a very unique, unexpected piece of
S1: information was given to members of the opposition. That was
S1: not something that was broadly known around that period of time.
S2: Exactly. I mean, there were briefings at the time. I
S2: know that Malcolm Turnbull, as the opposition leader at the time,
S2: was getting briefings. I'm sure he would have talked to
S2: his colleagues. At that time, Dutton had switched from being
S2: shadow finance to shadow health minister. So he made, you know,
S2: in theory, you'd think he wasn't getting that briefing as
S2: a as a non-economic portfolio holding shadow minister. But, you know,
S2: the information would have filtered out. The point for me, though,
S2: is that it was I mean, this was being discussed
S2: on the front pages of newspapers.
S1: Still, maybe not the best look to be doing anything
S1: at a time when, you know, we're going through a
S1: financial crisis to enrich oneself. If you're in politics and
S1: have high ambition, as he had. James tells Peter Dutton
S1: in his press conference on Wednesday, was very quick to
S1: jump into the common politician refrain of information that is
S1: damaging being dug up by an opposition dirt unit. This
S1: is a real Canberra insider point of intrigue. Dirt units.
S1: What are dirt units? Do they exist? What is the
S1: relationship of any such dirt unit to their stories this week?
S2: Yeah. Look, first of all, no political party is ever
S2: going to admit to having a dirt unit. But they
S2: all have. Let's call them research units. They've been around
S2: for decades towards the end of the Fraser government. They
S2: had people in every capital city sort of monitoring the radio.
S2: Hawke and Keating come in. They set up the National
S2: Media Liaison Service, which comes to be known as the animals.
S2: You can kind of see the MLS in the word,
S2: and they were famously kind of cowboys and would dig up,
S2: you know, bits of informative information on the then opposition coalition. Um,
S2: you know, they go on and on and on. The
S2: Howard government had the government members Secretariat, which was run
S2: by a legendary kind of former spinner, a guy called
S2: Ian Hankey, I believe. And then on through, you know,
S2: the Rudd and Gillard governments, they had the caucus support
S2: and training unit through to today. So they do have
S2: these research teams. They do dig up publicly information. You know,
S2: they might do something like compile a set of quotes
S2: that show, um, for example, Sussan Ley and Jane Hume
S2: contradicting each other on something, or Chris Bowen and Tony
S2: Burke being at variance and disagreeing and saying, look, you know,
S2: the government's divided or the opposition is divided, they go
S2: through and look at share trades like we've seen this week.
S2: They go through look at property records. Some of them
S2: are better than others. Bill shorten, when he was opposition leader,
S2: had a legendary research, let's call it team. So it's
S2: not unusual. You know, both all sides of politics are
S2: always looking for any advantage that would kind of give
S2: them an edge over their opponent.
S1: My understanding is the in the early part of this government,
S1: you maybe know better than me, James, but there was
S1: no research unit for a period of the start of
S1: this term under labor. I think there was a view
S1: inside the Prime Minister's office that wasn't the right way
S1: to engage in a new government. There was not a
S1: need for it. I think that changed about halfway through.
S1: And there now is a unit that includes a couple
S1: of staffers from the PMO, but also some media staffers
S1: from different offices, some of the more shrewd political officers.
S1: Does it actually matter where the information came from and
S1: how it came into the public domain?
S2: It matters in the sense that confirmation of where it
S2: has come from allows Dutton to push it away, you know,
S2: to put it at an arm's length and say, that's
S2: just come from labor, that's just a base political attack,
S2: you know, Don't believe it. Disregard it. It's not not
S2: not that it's not credible, but it's just it's not
S2: worth answering. It's not worth getting hung up over. If
S2: you like.
S1: Helps his political argument, I should say. Journalists work with
S1: the opposition all the time to find information out from
S1: the government. They give us a lot of information they
S1: share with us. This is not new, but, um, any
S1: any implication, any invocation of a dirt unit is helpful
S1: for the subject of the story, for sure. I mean.
S2: Journalists regularly work with senators, for example, during the Senate
S2: estimates periods and say, you know, if you've got capacity,
S2: this is a story I'm looking at. I can't get
S2: an answer from the department. Can you please ask, you know,
S2: the deputy secretary of the Department of Transport when they're
S2: up in infrastructure estimates, what is happening with the Suburban
S2: Rail Link or whatever the story might be, it's pretty common.
S1: Yeah. And, James, it feels like this week feels like
S1: a campaign week to me. I mean, the government started
S1: with on the Sunday, a big election announcement on Medicare
S1: wedged the opposition quickly into accepting it. Huge amount of
S1: spending $8.5 billion, I think. And then they spent the
S1: week attacking Peter Dutton. And it feels like there's been
S1: a two party contest rather than the referendum on labor,
S1: which was seen for much of the term. Is this
S1: the start of an election campaign? When are we going
S1: to call an election? Yeah, we're very.
S2: Much in the twilight of the 47th Parliament. I still
S2: think the election is called on. I'm going to get
S2: this wrong. I think it's March 9th. That's this Sunday.
S2: And that would be an election that would be held
S2: on April 12th. I could be wrong. Of course. It
S2: could be this weekend. I think labor wants to get
S2: a few more ducks in a row. You know, the
S2: campaign headquarters are ready. The staff have been chosen. All
S2: that stuff's in place. And then I think it's a
S2: matter of, you know, when does the PM feel like
S2: it's the most propitious time to call it? And. Yeah,
S2: I mean, I think it's 2 or 3 weeks away.
S2: There's two schools of thought in labor about that at
S2: the moment. Some are sort of saying privately, oh, each
S2: week is not quite as good as it should be,
S2: and we're just slipping that little bit further behind in
S2: the polls each time they come out. We need to
S2: go now. Conversely, the view is we're starting to get
S2: up some momentum. Things are starting to be a bit
S2: harder for Peter Dutton and some to touch on something
S2: you just mentioned, Paul. We are moving from that, that, that,
S2: that phase where, you know, polling, for example, it's kind
S2: of a referendum in my mind, more of a referendum on,
S2: you know, how do you think the government's going? How
S2: do you think the PM's going? And I think the
S2: reason why we've seen the PM lose so much paint
S2: is that over time, cost of living pressures have risen
S2: and risen, and essentially they've marked the PM down because
S2: he's the guy running the country, right? Moving into that
S2: choice frame, that's where Labour hopes that they can peg
S2: Peter Dutton back and kind of frame that question in
S2: people's minds. Okay. We might as Labour have disappointed you
S2: a bit, but we have done this, this and this.
S2: And do you really want Peter Dutton to be the PM?
S2: That's where they want to be. Now they may not
S2: get there.
S1: I think the next set of polling posts, an interest
S1: rate cut and post this week on Dutton will be
S1: crucial for how people feel about the election campaign. I
S1: think that's it from us. James, thanks for explaining how
S1: you came about your story. Well done and thanks. Thanks
S1: for joining us.
S2: Pleasure to be with one of Australia's foremost journalists, Paul Silly.
S1: Today's episode of Inside Politics was produced by Julia Carcasole
S1: with technical assistance from Debbie Harrington. Tammy Mills is the
S1: executive producer and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
S1: Inside politics is a production of The Age and The
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S1: I'm Paul Satchell, this is inside politics. Thanks for listening.