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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Cambry and

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S1: Thomas Mitchell. Gang, what is up? It's been a couple

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S1: of weeks since we're all together. How are you guys doing?

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S2: Yeah, good. Good to be back together. Missed you guys.

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S3: Yeah. It's been. It feels like it's been a while

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S3: since it's been the three of us. So this is our.

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S3: This is great.

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S1: Yeah. One thing that hasn't changed since the last time

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S1: we spoke a few weeks ago is that the New

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S1: South Wales Blues are on the cusp of getting absolutely

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S1: destroyed yet again. Uh, an origin again. By the time

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S1: this is out, you know, you will know what the

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S1: score is. We don't know what it is. Thomas, you

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S1: were saying that you feel slightly optimistic because Latrell is

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S1: back in the squad?

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S2: I do, uh, as you said, it'll probably come back

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S2: to haunt me, but, you know, I don't know. I've

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S2: been like, I follow Latrell on Instagram, and just the

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S2: vibe of his stories this week has been good. Like,

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S2: it seems like a good vibe in camp. He's having

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S2: lots of tea. Uh, that's been his big thing.

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S1: He's drinking a lot of tea. That's what you're hanging

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S1: your your your hopes on that.

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S2: That's pretty desperate times. All right. So, uh, but yeah,

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S2: last time I think I picked the blues by four

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S2: and we got absolutely flogged. So this time I'm going

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S2: blues by 20 plus. Wow.

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S3: That's huge.

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S2: Yeah. So anyway, just watch this space, guys.

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S3: I like when you put money down because it gives

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S3: the game some kind of level of stake for me.

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S3: So even though I appreciate that you're putting your money on.

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S2: It, maybe we should go in all three.

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S3: Yeah. It's better when it's your money.

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S1: I mean, his mental health is is a big factor

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S1: on how good you feel during the day, isn't it?

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S3: Correct. I thought you were going to say when you said, um,

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S3: one thing that hasn't changed is that we still don't

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S3: have a good answer for you when you say, how

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S3: have you been this week?

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S1: Our wonderful producer will probably tidy up the awkward gap,

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S1: but you both just stare each other in shock that

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S1: I asked you the same question I asked you every single.

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S3: Always so disappointing. I feel like we always disappoint you.

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S2: I'm mostly focused on, like, the different ways that you say,

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S2: this is the drop. I just get so zeroed in

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S2: on that. And so then after that happens, I just

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S2: zone out for like 10s.

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S3: Yeah.

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S1: I'm a pro man. You know, I bring the A

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S1: game to the introduction. Um, let's get on with it.

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S1: Today on the show, we got something very exciting. Austin

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S1: Butler is on the podcast. He's a star of the

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S1: new film The Bike Riders, which is out next week. Uh,

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S1: it also stars Jodie Comer and Tom Hardy. I spoke

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S1: to Austin about the film, his recent performances in June,

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S1: and Elvis, and we had a really fun conversation about

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S1: the state of cinema more generally, and why it's important

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S1: for people to go to the movies and make sure

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S1: that we have movies in the future. There are two

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S1: different topics we're going to get into before we play you.

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S1: That conversation with Austin in the second half of today's episode,

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S1: we're going to talk about the fascinating moment that is

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S1: happening in pop music right now. It's actually a lot

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S1: going on from the Lord and Charli XCX remix, and

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S1: what that means for musical feuds and collaborations going forward,

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S1: but also on a much broader scale. The breakthrough success

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S1: of artists like Chapel Roan, Sabrina Carpenter, Tinashe, artists who've

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S1: been making music for a very long time and are

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S1: finally achieving commercial success even in a year that's been

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S1: dominated by the big three of Taylor, Beyonce and Billie,

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S1: there's a lot to discuss about what's going on in

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S1: the musical landscape right now. But first, the Logie nominations

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S1: were announced this week. We covered the awards last year,

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S1: kind of made the case that even if you're a

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S1: bit cynical about these awards ceremonies and the state of

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S1: Australian television, they're worth paying attention to because they are

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S1: a barometer of what's going on in Australian TV in

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S1: the industry right now. So we decided we'd take a

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S1: look at the nominations this year and do our own

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S1: temperature check on what's happening in Australian TV, and maybe

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S1: even make some predictions that hopefully will be more accurate

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S1: than Thomas's predictions on the rugby league. Thomas, I'm going

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S1: to get your help for this one. You are famously

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S1: the Logies guy in this office, in this podcast, in

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S1: this country. Really this year, the awards are being done

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S1: a little bit differently to the way they've operated for.

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S1: I think like most of their history, there are new categories.

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S1: There's a new judging system. Can you kind of break

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S1: down what is different about the Logie Awards in 2024?

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S2: Yes, I'm just going to go and update my Instagram

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S2: bio to the Logies guy in this country. Uh, which

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S2: is your.

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S3: Gold Logie campaign starts today, correct?

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S2: Yeah, it's a title I've been coveting for some time.

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S1: I think it started last year when we talked about this.

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S1: I have a vague memory that we we sort of

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S1: thought that by this time next year, Thomas and I

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S1: would somehow be Logie nominees.

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S2: Either be Logie nominated or writing the Logie show, which

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S2: I still think we probably should be tapped to do. Um, sadly,

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S2: the broadcast is no longer with the Great Nine Network. Anyway,

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S2: all of that aside, uh, yes. So there are some

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S2: big changes this year, and it's actually been really reflected

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S2: in what the nominations look like. So previously, the awards

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S2: were split into Most Popular, which was a fan voted award.

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S2: So that was kind of, you know, across everything all

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S2: the way up to the gold and, you know, comedy, drama,

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S2: reality and then the same. Awards were mirrored in the

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S2: Most Outstanding, which was an industry voted award. And that's

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S2: been the case since, you know, forever, as you said,

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S2: now it's been combined. So the awards are all known

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S2: as the best. So best actor, best actress in a drama,

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S2: best actor in a comedy. And they are going to

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S2: be decided by a combined score. So it'll be a

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S2: score determined by assessment criteria, a supplied audience data and

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S2: then public votes. So it'll be like a mesh of

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S2: what the industry thinks and what the public thinks, and

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S2: then how the shows fit into the assessment criteria. So

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S2: that really changes things. It's no longer going to be

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S2: this kind of popularity contest awards versus, you know, what

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S2: the industry thinks. And I guess the point of that

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S2: is to, uh, settle on a really more reflective best winner,

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S2: which I think is actually a really good thing. Uh,

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S2: and generally I think people are excited about that. There's

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S2: also been some changes in terms of the actual awards.

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S2: So they finally decided to separate the comedy and drama

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S2: in the acting categories. So previously it was just like

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S2: Best Actor, and you would have people from comedies and

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S2: dramas up against each other, whereas now that's, um, completely separate,

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S2: which is kind of like what the Emmy Awards does.

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S2: So yeah, basically, we're looking at a brand new Logies

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S2: for the 64th Annual Logie Awards happening in August. It's

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S2: happening again in Sydney. Uh, it moved to Sydney last

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S2: year and it will be broadcast on seven. So I

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S2: guess like it's, you know, the Logies for a long time,

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S2: as we've done on this very podcast, has been probably

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S2: criticized as a strange, like, convoluted reflection of basically what

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S2: people who still watch Free to Air think maybe. And

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S2: that's always been the criticism and perhaps why people are

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S2: a little bit indifferent. Whereas this change, I think, is

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S2: the Logies being like, look, we've heard you, and now

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S2: the entire criteria is a mix of all these different

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S2: things and therefore delivers a winner that makes more sense

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S2: to people.

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S1: Yeah, I think that's a really good summary. Thank you.

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S1: And also I think it makes a lot of sense,

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S1: like having those awards separated in popular versus best was

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S1: just very confusing for people. Uh, and like you said,

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S1: separating out comedy and drama also makes a lot of sense. Like,

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S1: how do you compare dramatic and comedic performances, though obviously.

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S1: And I'm sure this will be the case. Like, you

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S1: still get these funny. Shows that end up in weed

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S1: categories like you do with the logos. People like the

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S1: bear is in comedy and like there's bits of it

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S1: that are funny, but it's also one of the most

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S1: emotionally intense and dramatic shows on TV right now. But

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S1: at least there's some attempt to look at what award

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S1: shows are doing elsewhere and how the Logies can, I guess,

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S1: mirror them in good ways. I'm interested in what the

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S1: viewership data being an input into the awards means, because

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S1: we obviously don't really know the numbers on streaming platforms.

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S1: Do you have any insight into that, like have streaming

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S1: platforms been asked to provide viewership data for this Logies process?

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S2: I believe they have, actually, and I think you can

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S2: really then see the results of that, because if you

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S2: have a look at the particularly the acting categories, Logies.

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S2: So for lead actor, lead actress in comedy and drama

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S2: as well as supporting it is like stacked with streamers. Um,

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S2: so I think that's really played a part. And you know,

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S2: and generally it's a huge year for streaming. And again,

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S2: I think we're seeing this shift in terms of like

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S2: who has been nominated, I guess, firstly, in terms of

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S2: some of the big surprises or the big stories coming

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S2: out of the initial nominations, Boy Swallows Universe was the

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S2: most successful individual show. Obviously, that was a Netflix Australian

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S2: production and that was a huge success story. Generally, I

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S2: think for Australia it trended all over the world. That's

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S2: got eight best nominations, as well as two Graham Kennedy

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S2: Awards for the most popular new talent for Felix Cameron

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S2: and Lee Tiger Halley. So that was kind of like

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S2: the big story coming out. Also, the ABC, it's interesting

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S2: time for the ABC generally, but in terms of its nominations,

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S2: it's like a record year. They've got 51 nominations now,

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S2: as well as Tony Armstrong being nominated for his first

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S2: Gold Logie. But you know, we've seen like they've got

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S2: 17 out of 20 best categories they're nominated in. And

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S2: it's kind of spread both across drama and comedy. The

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S2: newsreader got a bunch total control, mother and son in limbo,

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S2: as well as kind of the usual suspects who get

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S2: nominated every year like the Grün's Hard Quiz, the yearly

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S2: with Charlie Pickering. So like I do think that the

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S2: new criteria has fed into what the makeup looks like

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S2: this year. You know, I think it's the first year

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S2: that Home and Away doesn't really have any acting nominations

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S2: like that does not happen at the Logies. That is

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S2: just like, you know. So yeah, the changes seem to

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S2: be working in the correct way. So yeah. Interesting times.

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S1: Yeah. It does seem like the winners here. Like you said,

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S1: Netflix with Boy Swallows Universe and the ABC. I feel

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S1: like that that trend, that story that the Logies tell

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S1: us about what's been happening in Australian TV the last

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S1: 12 months or so, streamers and the ABC investing in

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S1: comedy and drama, and perhaps the free to air networks

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S1: not doing it as much, or at least not doing

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S1: it in ways that are being critically or commercially as

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S1: well received. I think across the 24 nominees in acting,

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S1: across drama and comedy, only one is from a free

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S1: to air network, which is Rob Collins in RFDS from seven.

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S1: Rob Collins actually nominated twice in the best Lead Actor category,

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S1: one for Royal Flying Doctor Service and one for the

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S1: ABC Total Control. So good on him. I didn't know

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S1: you could do that, but that's pretty cool to have

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S1: him twice. Wonder if he's going to split his own vote.

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S2: I always enjoy seeing when someone is up against themselves

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S2: in a category. Yeah, but yeah, like I also picked

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S2: that out as a pretty like insane thing like that.

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S2: I think, you know, if you add up all those

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S2: different nominations, there's like over 20 nominations and not only

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S2: one single commercial free to air show in Royal Flying

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S2: Doctor Service. I guess it also speaks to this increasing

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S2: trend that when we do have the seven, nine, ten

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S2: investing in like local drama drama especially, it's like it

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S2: is a mini series. It's, you know, underbellies like that

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S2: type of thing. It's not the long running drama. And

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S2: so if you have a look at the mini series category,

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S2: which has also been separated out this year, there are

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S2: more commercial free to air networks. But yeah, I guess

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S2: it is a pretty damning indictment of what we discuss

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S2: every year whenever the networks do their upfronts. Is that increasingly,

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S2: you just don't see the commercial free to air networks

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S2: investing in local comedy and drama. It's just not what

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S2: they do. And the stream is a really plugged that gap.

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S2: And and you know, that's what we see. But sadly, uh,

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S2: it shouldn't really be that way. And hopefully Rob Collins

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S2: takes it out for Royal Flying Doctor service.

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S3: Yeah I think it is kind of a reflection of

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S3: the complete shift of original Australian content moving to streaming channels,

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S3: and also the choice that networks are making, because a

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S3: lot of these networks are associated with Streaming network ten,

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S3: with Paramount nine, obviously with Stan, and they're really solidifying

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S3: their free to air for reality TV shows. Um, which

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S3: is an interesting shift, which we've seen has been happening

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S3: for a while. But yeah, when you're looking at the

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S3: Logies nominations, you can really see the primes, the netflixes

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S3: dominating on there and binge as well.

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S1: Yeah. Reality is the the inverse of this conversation, which

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S1: is dominated by free to air stuff, reality and lifestyle

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S1: I guess. So shows like travel guides on on nine

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S1: Better Homes and Gardens on seven and then yeah, with

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S1: reality it's alone on SBS, survivor on ten, I'm a

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S1: Celebrity on ten, MasterChef on ten, Lego Masters on nine,

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S1: The Block on nine. So that that is seemingly the

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S1: new TV landscape. Reality on free to air and drama

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S1: and scripted comedy on streaming and on the ABC. But

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S1: as you pointed out, Mel, like these, some of these

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S1: streamers like Stan, which has picked up a swag of nominees,

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S1: are part of nine as well. So it just seems

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S1: to perhaps be a reflection of the way that audiences

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S1: are consuming stuff and who's watching online and who's watching

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S1: on appointment free to air stuff like it makes sense

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S1: that reality is maybe overrepresented on free to air, because

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S1: that is still appointment viewing. You watch MasterChef at this time,

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S1: so then you can talk about it the next day.

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S1: Whereas for drama and comedy, people just want to watch

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S1: that at their whim on online. The other one that

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S1: I thought was interesting and is like honestly, frankly, a

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S1: little bit sad. Best children's program. And, you know, ABC

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S1: deserves props here for having five out of the six nominees.

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S1: The only other one being from NITV and Netflix. Eddie's

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S1: little homies. There was a era, including the one that

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S1: we all grew up in, where the major commercial networks

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S1: were investing a lot in children's TV shows, scripted dramas,

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S1: all sorts of shows like that. It's just. And this

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S1: has been borne out in reports done by the Australian

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S1: Children's Television Foundation. There's just not the level of investment

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S1: in children's TV that there used to be in Australia,

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S1: and it's so interesting having the Logies as a kind

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S1: of a data point for that as well.

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S3: Yeah, I feel like and we talked about this with

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S3: the budget as well, where there was an investment into

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S3: children's TV. I feel like ABC has come to dominate

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S3: that so convincingly that maybe other networks are moving away

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S3: from it. But it is a shame because Bluey, one

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S3: of our most successful cultural exports, has shown the power

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S3: of children's television to travel internationally. So it is a shame.

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S3: But yeah, very clear stronghold on that from the ABC.

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S2: It'll be interesting to see if Bluey, which was famously

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S2: beaten last year, uh, in quite a shock. Will will,

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S2: you know, bounce back. I'm sure it probably will. I

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S2: feel like it's been another big year for Bluey with

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S2: a batch of new episodes, but yeah, I guess like

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S2: going back to that. You know, of course all these

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S2: streamers have associations with different networks, you know, Stan and

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S2: Nine and stuff. But it's weird. Like if you just

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S2: don't have, you know, the capacity to have a bunch

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S2: of streaming in your, you know, like monthly budget, you

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S2: just like, don't get to watch any Australian drama. Like,

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S2: I mean, yeah, you can, you know, we've done some

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S2: stories recently on our colleagues who have only watched Tenplay

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S2: for a month or only watched SBS On Demand. You

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S2: can go and watch old seasons of great Australian drama.

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S2: But yeah, it's kind of weird. It's basically if you

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S2: want to watch new Australian drama or comedy, then you

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S2: have to like, definitely make sure that you're paying, you know,

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S2: ten bucks a month extra on top of all the

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S2: other bills you pay.

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S3: Yeah, that's so true. And also, I think a lot

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S3: of these shows, which are really great, deadlock, something like

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S3: deadlock had a lot of cut through, but it was

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S3: on Prime Video, which is still a relatively smaller streaming

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S3: platform in Australia still. And a show like that could

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S3: have potentially had far more import if it was on

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S3: a streamer with more subscribers or if it was potentially

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S3: on ABC, which everyone has access to. So it is

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S3: kind of. Yeah, and we've obviously discussed this a bit

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S3: before about how, you know, the segmenting of the market

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S3: will affect how different shows are received.

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S1: I wish I'd done the numbers on this before, but

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S1: if you wanted to watch everything nominated for a Logie,

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S1: you'd have to have Paramount+, Amazon, Disney+, Netflix, Stan, binge.

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S1: That is a lot of money. And you know, the

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S1: era that we were growing up in, you would have

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S1: free to air that would be overwhelmingly all over the

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S1: Logies and then maybe Foxtel for some of those prestige shows.

329
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S1: So that's the other side to this as well. Like

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S1: Cost of Living is impacting the kinds of Australian stories

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S1: people can access. It's a good point, Thomas, that if

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S1: you can't afford all these things, you still probably deserve

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S1: Australian stories as well. Let's get to the Gold Logie.

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S1: This is probably one that even if people don't necessarily

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S1: care about who wins Best Miniseries or Telemovie, there'll be

336
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S1: a cross. The Gold Logie race break that one down

337
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:09,390
S1: for us. Thomas, who's nominated? What are the surprises here?

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S2: Yes. Uh, it's an interesting mix this year, so I

339
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:14,700
S2: guess we'll go with the nominees first. As I mentioned,

340
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:18,420
S2: Tony Armstrong, uh, nominated for his first ever Gold Logie. He's,

341
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S2: you know, one of the bright young hopes for the

342
00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:22,890
S2: ABC and very, very popular. Obviously, he's actually on a

343
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S2: hat trick, having won the Graham Kennedy Award in 2022,

344
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S2: the most popular new talent in 2023. And then now

345
00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:32,910
S2: looking at the Gold Logie. And both of those awards

346
00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:35,580
S2: are publicly voted. So, you know, there is a trend

347
00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:37,740
S2: of people voting for Tony. So he's really, really in

348
00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:38,400
S2: the mix.

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S1: So I just got to say, as an aside, I

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S1: love the fact that you, uh, commentating this like it's

351
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S1: a live sports. Yeah.

352
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S3: You were calling it tournament.

353
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S1: It's really, really good.

354
00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:50,850
S2: Uh, and then alongside him we have Andy Lee. So weirdly,

355
00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:52,710
S2: people were like, oh my God, Hamish Blake, who is,

356
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:56,460
S2: you know, a two time Gold Logie winner won in 2022, uh,

357
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S2: was beaten by Sonia Kruger last year, but everyone thought

358
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:00,930
S2: he would be in the mix. He isn't. Instead, Andy

359
00:17:00,930 --> 00:17:03,270
S2: Lee gets his first shot at gold. And then we

360
00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:06,330
S2: also have Asher Keddie. Uh, Julia Morris for I'm A celeb.

361
00:17:06,330 --> 00:17:11,100
S2: Larry Emdur, also a first time Gold Logie nominee. Robert Irwin, again,

362
00:17:11,100 --> 00:17:13,440
S2: another first timer for I'm A celeb and then last

363
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,640
S2: year's winner. Kruger is in the mix too. Now, it

364
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,070
S2: is an interesting batch of people because you have a

365
00:17:19,070 --> 00:17:21,350
S2: whole lot of stuff going on. You've got previous winners

366
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S2: in Sonia Kruger and Asher Keddie. You've got previous multiple

367
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S2: nominees in Julia Morris. I think this is the third

368
00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:30,350
S2: year she's been nominated in a row without winning. And

369
00:17:30,350 --> 00:17:32,840
S2: then you do have these first timers in Andy, Larry

370
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S2: and Robert and Tony Armstrong. So it's a funny race

371
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:41,840
S2: because at very first glance you're like, okay, maybe there's

372
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,820
S2: a chance anyone can win. I you know, we wrote

373
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S2: about this earlier this week. I really believe that. It's

374
00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:49,970
S2: a three horse race between Larry and Tony Armstrong and

375
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S2: Robert Irwin. I think they each have kind of like

376
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,710
S2: viable shots at going the distance. But what what I

377
00:17:57,710 --> 00:18:01,040
S2: think is so weird is that last year we saw, uh,

378
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S2: Sonia basically, I guess, perhaps surprisingly, beat Hamish off the

379
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S2: back of a very strong campaign from channel seven to

380
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S2: get her there. I think the same thing will happen

381
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:12,740
S2: again this year with Larry. I mean, I'm curious to

382
00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:15,410
S2: get your guys thoughts. Obviously not being as enmeshed in

383
00:18:15,410 --> 00:18:18,440
S2: Logies culture. What was your kind of, like instant reaction

384
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:19,369
S2: to seeing the list?

385
00:18:19,369 --> 00:18:21,530
S3: Sorry, could I ask? And I had a little hand

386
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:25,190
S3: raise before. Um, I just wanted some clarification please. On

387
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S3: are they do you win the Gold Logie based on

388
00:18:28,369 --> 00:18:31,699
S3: the performance of that year? You know, i.e. is Robert

389
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S3: Irwin going to get it based on I'm A celeb,

390
00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:36,800
S3: or do you take into consideration all their kind of

391
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,590
S3: historic roles up to this moment?

392
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:42,530
S2: Well, so the Gold Logie will just be publicly voted.

393
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:44,750
S2: So this one I guess you could make the argument

394
00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:48,170
S2: still remains like who can basically galvanize people that like

395
00:18:48,170 --> 00:18:51,439
S2: them the most to vote? And which is why the

396
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,050
S2: biggest conversation that, like I'm seeing so far is I

397
00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:56,240
S2: feel like people have accepted that Tony is a worthy

398
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,189
S2: nominee and definitely in with a shot. And then the

399
00:18:58,190 --> 00:19:00,590
S2: two other chances are, like Robert Irwin and Larry Emdur,

400
00:19:00,590 --> 00:19:04,280
S2: who represent two very like I mean, Larry has been

401
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,250
S2: on TV for like 5000 years. He's hosted a million shows.

402
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:10,159
S2: He currently hosts two daily shows in the Chase and

403
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,560
S2: the Morning Show. And I guess people are like, he

404
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,070
S2: makes sense. And then you've got Robert Irwin, like, you know,

405
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:18,470
S2: we all love the Irwin family. They're, you know, held

406
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:21,320
S2: a special place in like the Australian cultural landscape. But

407
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,990
S2: like Robert Irwin hosted one season of I'm A celeb.

408
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:26,570
S2: He did a pretty good job. Like, whatever, the ratings

409
00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:28,910
S2: weren't amazing. And yet he's like, in this gold race.

410
00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:31,070
S2: And not only in the gold race, he and Larry

411
00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:33,560
S2: are kind of like, according to the online bookies way

412
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,410
S2: up there, it's like him, Tony and Larry are all

413
00:19:36,410 --> 00:19:38,510
S2: under like $4. They're like the favorites.

414
00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:41,150
S1: And he's and he's also up against his co-host Julia Morris,

415
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:42,980
S1: because I thought maybe they just needed to make sure

416
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:45,469
S1: there's representation from across all the networks. I feel like

417
00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:49,010
S1: what's interesting about this is that this is one where

418
00:19:49,010 --> 00:19:53,149
S1: streaming hasn't really impacted the race, and I'm not quite

419
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:56,780
S1: sure what the obvious streaming person would be in this,

420
00:19:56,780 --> 00:19:59,270
S1: but I mean, if Asher Keddie actually, no, I guess

421
00:19:59,270 --> 00:20:02,030
S1: Asher Keddie was in strife, which is a binge show,

422
00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:04,820
S1: but I'm sort of surprised that maybe there is like

423
00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:08,000
S1: a Heartbreak High or A Boy Swallows in this. Considering

424
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,750
S1: how popular those shows have been, particularly for like a

425
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:15,890
S1: younger audience, that might not be as plugged into some

426
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:18,890
S1: of these. Others, like like Sonia Kruger. I think it's

427
00:20:18,890 --> 00:20:20,990
S1: interesting that Tony's nominated. I think it makes sense given

428
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:24,919
S1: he keeps winning these these awards that are popularly voted on.

429
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:28,400
S1: It's pretty amazing. He's not really been on television for

430
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,100
S1: a long time to be a Gold Logie nominee, relatively

431
00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:34,400
S1: early in his TV career. It's quite an extraordinary, uh,

432
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,770
S1: hat tip to him. I think you're right that it's

433
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:40,940
S1: that it's Larry Robb and and Tony, though. That said,

434
00:20:40,940 --> 00:20:44,629
S1: I mean, the Logies love repeat winners. Like there's so

435
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:48,470
S1: many examples where people win. Like there's the the 90s

436
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:54,200
S1: are wild. Ray Martin won in 9394 and 95 and 96.

437
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,750
S1: And then Lisa McCune won 97 9899 2000 like that

438
00:20:59,750 --> 00:21:02,240
S1: is the entire 90s. There were only two winners, Ray

439
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,230
S1: Martin and Lisa McCune.

440
00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:05,360
S2: Yeah, and what a pair. Yeah, but I mean, obviously

441
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,820
S2: this won't shock you. Things are very different now than

442
00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:10,010
S2: they were in the 90s. And, you know, obviously that

443
00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:12,320
S2: was when you would literally buy your TV week magazine

444
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,929
S2: and fill out the thing and fucking mail it in, like,

445
00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:18,290
S2: whereas now obviously it's online voting and but what I

446
00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:21,440
S2: think will I mean, I obviously can't speak for Logies organizers,

447
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,360
S2: but I have previously worked at TV week and I

448
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,119
S2: reckon they would be like praying that Larry Emdur wins,

449
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,030
S2: because I think if Robert Irwin was to win, it

450
00:21:29,030 --> 00:21:32,330
S2: does like undermine the legitimacy and I guess like the

451
00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:35,930
S2: prestige around the Gold Logie. Like, you know, the reality

452
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:38,840
S2: is the guy is like 20 something. He's been on

453
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,350
S2: TV for two minutes and like, what does that say

454
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:45,440
S2: about the award? If Robert Irwin was to win and be,

455
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,260
S2: you know, declared the most popular person on Australian TV

456
00:21:48,260 --> 00:21:50,840
S2: when he's hosted one single season of I'm A celeb,

457
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,730
S2: let alone someone should do a welfare check on Doctor

458
00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:54,350
S2: Chris Brown, who hosted the show for like, ten years.

459
00:21:54,350 --> 00:21:55,430
S2: Never got a nomination.

460
00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:57,530
S3: What does it say? I think maybe it says that

461
00:21:57,530 --> 00:22:00,320
S3: they need to continue to revisit how they how they

462
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,720
S3: judge these awards. I feel like, okay, I'm gonna go

463
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,810
S3: with a dark horse. I reckon, if it's completely popular.

464
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,930
S3: Voted Tony Armstrong. ABC viewers love him. A certain kind

465
00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:11,390
S3: of person loves Tony Armstrong, but they're not the type

466
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:13,340
S3: of person who really cares about the Logies and they're

467
00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:16,790
S3: not going. Online to vote, not the ABC audience. Robert

468
00:22:16,790 --> 00:22:19,280
S3: Irwin big fan base, but I don't know.

469
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:19,910
S2: 6 million.

470
00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:22,880
S3: Instagram followers. Yeah. So he could activate his his fans

471
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,790
S3: and they could vote. But I kind of feel like

472
00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:29,480
S3: maybe they're not that interested in the Logies either. Asher Keddie,

473
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,140
S3: she's the sweet spot. I know she's won before, but repeat,

474
00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:37,730
S3: repeat winners. The people who love Asher Keddie also love

475
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:39,889
S3: the Logies, and they are also the kind of person

476
00:22:39,890 --> 00:22:42,830
S3: who I reckon gets online and votes for their girl.

477
00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:44,960
S1: I love how you did not even know how these

478
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,510
S1: awards were decided five minutes ago, and you were so

479
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:50,030
S1: authoritative in declaring, but you're right. I mean, there is

480
00:22:50,030 --> 00:22:53,660
S1: a latent Australian love for Asher Keddie. I, I think

481
00:22:53,660 --> 00:22:56,360
S1: the only thing I would say in response to that

482
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,680
S1: is her show strife, like, wasn't like a huge hit

483
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,520
S1: either critically or commercially. And I think I 100% agree

484
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,970
S1: with you that the ABC audience who love Tony are

485
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:11,240
S1: also the kinds of folk who traditionally probably don't take

486
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,850
S1: the cues to vote. But this year, as we've discussed,

487
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:17,210
S1: there are so many ABC shows nominated, and the ABC

488
00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:20,780
S1: is under so much scrutiny and pressure, including from people

489
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:23,180
S1: like us about what it's doing, what its future is

490
00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:25,730
S1: that they I think if I was the ABC, I

491
00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:27,680
S1: would actually go all out. I would say, this is

492
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,140
S1: our year where the commercial free to air network seemed

493
00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:33,500
S1: to be struggling a little bit. We've got so many nominations,

494
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,720
S1: we've got our chance at a Gold Logie for the

495
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,570
S1: first time. That isn't a joke campaign like Tom Gleeson.

496
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:40,340
S1: We could actually win the gold. We could win like

497
00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:44,570
S1: 30 Logies here, potentially. Let's actually mobilize our audience and

498
00:23:44,570 --> 00:23:46,159
S1: do it. That's what I would do if I was

499
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,760
S1: the ABC, whether or not the audience responds, I'm not sure.

500
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,910
S1: For that reason. I think ultimately Thomas is right that

501
00:23:52,910 --> 00:23:54,890
S1: Larry is probably in a really good spot because he's

502
00:23:54,890 --> 00:23:58,130
S1: got the combination of being someone who lots of Australians

503
00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:00,380
S1: know because he's been around for a long time. He's

504
00:24:00,380 --> 00:24:03,080
S1: generally well liked. He's got a bigger social following, though

505
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,400
S1: not by much than Tony Armstrong, and seven can mobilize

506
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,940
S1: behind him the way they did for Sonia Kruger last year.

507
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:13,550
S1: So I think there's a lot of factors suggesting that

508
00:24:13,550 --> 00:24:15,620
S1: Larry might be able to take this one out.

509
00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:19,670
S2: And also, I think, you know that the the people

510
00:24:19,670 --> 00:24:23,689
S2: who like love, you know, he's got 171,000 followers on

511
00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:26,960
S2: Instagram versus, you know, Robert Irwin's 6 million. That's absolutely

512
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,340
S2: no contest. But the like people who love and follow

513
00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:35,060
S2: Larry are so committed like versus what? You know, Robert

514
00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:38,090
S2: Irwin's probably very youngish fan base. I don't know, even

515
00:24:38,090 --> 00:24:39,890
S2: if he puts out a few stories like, hey, vote

516
00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:42,770
S2: for me. Link in bio. I don't know if like,

517
00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:46,160
S2: the amount of traction he'll actually get off that. Whereas

518
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,430
S2: I know like having also previously worked at the Morning

519
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:51,889
S2: Show as a producer with Larry, I know what that

520
00:24:51,890 --> 00:24:54,380
S2: audience is like. They're used to engaging with the show.

521
00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:57,619
S2: They buy shit from advertorials. They constantly enter competitions to

522
00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:00,770
S2: get a cruise to Fiji. Like they will sit and

523
00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:03,169
S2: watch that show for three hours every day and text

524
00:25:03,170 --> 00:25:05,659
S2: in and spend money. And like that is a viewer

525
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:09,020
S2: behavior that they're used to. So like and already it's

526
00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:12,020
S2: beginning like seven is going all out. Sonia is like

527
00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:15,109
S2: an afterthought this year. That's my opinion. Like all of

528
00:25:15,109 --> 00:25:17,570
S2: the seven talent has been Flogging Larry already. Like they

529
00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:20,480
S2: will be behind him. And you know, it's funny, like

530
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,730
S2: I text you last night, Osmond to be like, fuck.

531
00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:25,159
S2: Like you should see like Larry's odds from them. Even

532
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,649
S2: before when they announced, like he was in the mix,

533
00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:29,870
S2: his odds were, like, really high. And I should have

534
00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:32,149
S2: fucking got on him then. But I didn't cut this out.

535
00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:34,340
S2: If I can't talk about gambling. But now, like in

536
00:25:34,340 --> 00:25:36,949
S2: the last 24 hours, he has shortened so much. He's like,

537
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:40,010
S2: he and Tony are the favourites with Robert just behind.

538
00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:40,760
S2: But he is.

539
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,440
S3: You wrote a story. I mean, it would probably.

540
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,050
S1: Shorten even further after people listen to this conversation. So

541
00:25:45,050 --> 00:25:46,879
S1: if you didn't put your money on, you're probably, yeah.

542
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,470
S3: I feel like you wrote a story saying he was

543
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:51,050
S3: a favorite and then he became a favorite. I mean, I.

544
00:25:51,050 --> 00:25:53,449
S2: Have long suspected that I have the ear of the nation,

545
00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:55,429
S2: and that was confirmation, which I've I've.

546
00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:57,260
S1: Well, the ear of the nation or the ear of

547
00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,990
S1: the 14 people betting on the bookie awards.

548
00:26:00,109 --> 00:26:02,690
S2: But yeah. Anyway, that's my tip. Play this back in

549
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:04,850
S2: August when he wins and you guys can just, like,

550
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:06,410
S2: give me a nice cheer.

551
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:10,070
S1: Look, I'm glad we had that conversation because we get

552
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:11,419
S1: a little bit of feedback sometimes that, you know, we

553
00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:15,170
S1: talk about these big, uh, American shows and American films

554
00:26:15,170 --> 00:26:17,630
S1: and there's lots of interesting stuff happening in Australia. I

555
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:19,910
S1: think that's like a fair shout. It's good to take

556
00:26:19,910 --> 00:26:22,609
S1: the time to do a bit of a temp check

557
00:26:22,609 --> 00:26:25,610
S1: on what is happening in Australian television, the good and

558
00:26:25,609 --> 00:26:28,220
S1: the things that maybe are being missed a bit. But

559
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:30,230
S1: I'm really interested. I'm really interested to see how many

560
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:32,060
S1: people engage with the Logies this year, given that they

561
00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:35,030
S1: are trying to encompass a wider range of shows and

562
00:26:35,030 --> 00:26:39,350
S1: a wider range of streaming platforms. And like we always

563
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:41,930
S1: say about these awards, they're not the only thing that matters.

564
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:47,060
S1: Absolutely not. But they are a reflection of how a

565
00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:50,480
S1: decent chunk of the community and the industry think about

566
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,210
S1: how things are going right now. So it's worth talking about.

567
00:26:53,210 --> 00:26:56,270
S2: And I think personally, like the ceremony will be in August,

568
00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:59,150
S2: it will be on seven. And I think I'm excited

569
00:26:59,150 --> 00:27:02,030
S2: to see Sam Pang back as host. Uh, he has

570
00:27:02,030 --> 00:27:06,109
S2: a lot of material to work with from a insane year, uh,

571
00:27:06,109 --> 00:27:10,429
S2: for all I mean, really, all of the major TV networks, um,

572
00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:13,850
S2: you know, culturally, socially and everything that's. Going on I

573
00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:16,459
S2: like yeah hopefully he's like got a red hot cold opener.

574
00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:18,470
S3: Yeah. Then he deserves the Gold Logie too.

575
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:20,150
S2: Well actually he was I mean I hate to keep

576
00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:24,169
S2: talking about gambling. He was he was like in the

577
00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:26,360
S2: before the nominations were announced, he was in the mix

578
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,280
S2: as a really short, odd, uh, and then he didn't

579
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,149
S2: get a nomination. I mean.

580
00:27:29,150 --> 00:27:32,810
S1: Amazingly, if he gets nominated for his performance hosting every year,

581
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:33,080
S1: that would.

582
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,180
S2: Be. Well, this is another thing just quickly, uh, worth

583
00:27:35,180 --> 00:27:37,310
S2: mentioning lots of people don't know is that you have

584
00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:40,250
S2: to actually put yourself forward for the gold, which is

585
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,980
S2: why initially people were like, oh my God, Hamish Blake snubbed.

586
00:27:42,980 --> 00:27:45,080
S2: But like I, I think I said this last year

587
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,730
S2: I would get a tattoo of a Logie if I

588
00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:49,940
S2: was wrong. There's I guarantee he said don't put me

589
00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:52,189
S2: forward because like, I feel like last year the general

590
00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:54,080
S2: vibe from Hamish was like, I don't want to win

591
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,170
S2: this again. The whole then Sonia did that weird acceptance

592
00:27:57,170 --> 00:27:58,940
S2: speech where she like, I don't know, kind of lit

593
00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:01,280
S2: him up. But then like, I think Hamish was like,

594
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,780
S2: I don't want to be involved this year. So I

595
00:28:02,780 --> 00:28:05,210
S2: suspect he didn't put himself forward. And also then you've

596
00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:07,369
S2: now got Andy having a shot, and I'm sure Hamish

597
00:28:07,369 --> 00:28:09,409
S2: will like do a big campaign for him. So yeah,

598
00:28:09,410 --> 00:28:09,919
S2: interesting times.

599
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,590
S3: You need to get a tattoo of a Logie anyway. Yeah.

600
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,170
S1: I'm surprised you don't have a tattoo of a logo.

601
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,659
S2: Well, maybe. Okay, look, if Larry doesn't win, I'll get one. Yeah.

602
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,600
S1: I've never seen him this animated.

603
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:23,210
S3: I've never seen you know so much before.

604
00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:25,220
S2: This is my fucking mastermind subject.

605
00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:27,110
S3: I am, like, shocked.

606
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:30,080
S2: Me talking about the Logies on mastermind will finally get

607
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,970
S2: me the Logie nomination. I've so long.

608
00:28:45,420 --> 00:28:48,570
S1: All right. From your Rain Man. Subject to Mel's Rain Man.

609
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,660
S1: Subject pop music, baby. I'm really keen to have a

610
00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:54,360
S1: pretty wide ranging discussion with you guys about what's going

611
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,430
S1: on in music right now, because I think it is

612
00:28:56,430 --> 00:29:00,960
S1: utterly fascinating and it feels extremely, extremely significant. But before

613
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,660
S1: we do that, I kind of think it's worth discussing

614
00:29:03,660 --> 00:29:08,610
S1: that Charli XCX Lorde situation first, because that's one we

615
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:10,920
S1: haven't had time to get into. It became like a

616
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,880
S1: big cultural moment last week, Mel, we spoke about the

617
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,400
S1: Charli album brat with Meg a couple of weeks ago

618
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,290
S1: and how that song Girl So Confusing was very likely

619
00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:24,479
S1: about Lorde. Can you talk us through a little bit

620
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,010
S1: about what Charli was singing about and what happened last

621
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:31,200
S1: week to get everyone so worked up?

622
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,650
S3: Yeah, this song, Girl So Confusing, is about a complicated

623
00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:38,910
S3: relationship with a female musician, and the public immediately thought

624
00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:42,510
S3: that Charli XCX was talking about Lorde because, you know,

625
00:29:42,510 --> 00:29:44,790
S3: she talks about we've got the same hair, we talk

626
00:29:44,790 --> 00:29:47,490
S3: about making music. People say we're alike, which is something

627
00:29:47,490 --> 00:29:50,160
S3: that's been said of both Lorde and Charli XCX, that

628
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,340
S3: they like each other, and she talks about how strained

629
00:29:53,340 --> 00:29:58,080
S3: this relationship is and rife with miscommunications. And everyone started

630
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,470
S3: speculating who it was about and then completely taking control

631
00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:05,310
S3: of the narrative. Charli XCX and Lorde decided to work

632
00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:08,370
S3: it out on the remix and released this fabulous remixed

633
00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:12,180
S3: version of Girl So Confusing, where they essentially speak to

634
00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:16,290
S3: their their relationship and their different confusions about it. One

635
00:30:16,290 --> 00:30:18,210
S3: of the things I found really interesting a we haven't

636
00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:21,420
S3: heard heaps from Lorde lately, she's kind of moved to London,

637
00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:23,880
S3: we know that, but hasn't been releasing music, has been

638
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,040
S3: off social media, and she has this really kind of

639
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,780
S3: vulnerable verse on it.

640
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:30,660
UU: For the last couple years I've been at war in

641
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:33,600
UU: my body. I tried to starve myself in it, and

642
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,300
UU: then I gained all the weight back. I was trapped

643
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:39,360
UU: in the hatred. And your life seems so awesome, I

644
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,120
UU: never thought. My voice was in your head, girl.

645
00:30:43,540 --> 00:30:45,790
S3: It's quite a very vulnerable verse, and it's great to

646
00:30:45,790 --> 00:30:50,380
S3: hear Lorde kind of back making music. Uh, but I think,

647
00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:54,250
S3: you know, this whole remix, I mean, obviously, I would

648
00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:56,410
S3: think that Lorde was in on it the whole time

649
00:30:56,410 --> 00:30:59,200
S3: and that she would have been across and this was planned,

650
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,470
S3: that they would release this song together. Well, obviously you

651
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:06,100
S3: can't just spontaneously make music like I think, but I

652
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:09,280
S3: don't think that changes anything about it, that they planned it.

653
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,350
S2: I didn't think that that wasn't my first. I mean,

654
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:13,630
S2: I'm probably more of a sucker, I don't know, what

655
00:31:13,630 --> 00:31:14,440
S2: do you think?

656
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,080
S1: I have a bit of intelligence on this one.

657
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,550
S4: So here it comes.

658
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:21,400
S1: Friend. Friend of the pod, Shaad D'Souza, who wrote that

659
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,640
S1: Amazing Face magazine cover feature on Charli a few months

660
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,010
S1: ago that I think I shouted out, um, obviously spent

661
00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:28,870
S1: a lot of time with Charlie. I think has gotten

662
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:32,320
S1: to know Charlie quite well. Uh, at least the the

663
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,220
S1: tension between the two of them is like 100% real. Um,

664
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,890
S1: and that is something that has been plaguing, I guess, Charlie,

665
00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:46,810
S1: for a while. And I don't know whether the first

666
00:31:46,810 --> 00:31:50,890
S1: Lord heard about this track was when the album was released,

667
00:31:50,890 --> 00:31:52,690
S1: because what's interesting to remember as well is that Lorde

668
00:31:52,690 --> 00:31:56,170
S1: was very quick to go to the show and to

669
00:31:56,170 --> 00:31:58,330
S1: say how good it was. I have a feeling that

670
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:01,510
S1: Charlie just wrote this song, didn't talk to Lord about it,

671
00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:04,060
S1: but maybe gave Lorde a heads up that this track

672
00:32:04,060 --> 00:32:06,670
S1: is coming. And then that's when the wheels started to

673
00:32:06,670 --> 00:32:08,920
S1: turn on this. So I guess it's a little bit

674
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,580
S1: of both. It's like genuinely Charlie organically expressing her feelings

675
00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:14,710
S1: about something, and she's done that a bit on this record.

676
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:16,480
S1: Like there's a track that everyone thinks is about Taylor

677
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,680
S1: Swift and whatever. Um, and then Lorde, I think, came

678
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,540
S1: up with her own idea to, hey, this would be

679
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:26,410
S1: really interesting if we quote unquote worked it out on

680
00:32:26,410 --> 00:32:29,800
S1: the remix. It's a really fascinating thing because it seems

681
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,520
S1: to have happened pretty quickly and pretty organically, and the

682
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,000
S1: vulnerability that they both expose on this track is a

683
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,550
S1: bit surprising. It's like almost even if there is an

684
00:32:39,550 --> 00:32:42,880
S1: element of musical cynicism because it helps boost, you know,

685
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,450
S1: the album's placement in the charts and whatever, whatever. It's

686
00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:50,800
S1: just so raw and honest that that supersedes anything to

687
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,260
S1: do with its success and how it's in the zeitgeist.

688
00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:56,020
S1: You have Lorde talking about, yeah, her body, about how

689
00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:59,740
S1: she feels about cancelling on on Charlie. It doesn't feel

690
00:32:59,740 --> 00:33:00,760
S1: cynical to me.

691
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,610
S3: No, no. And I me saying that they worked on

692
00:33:03,610 --> 00:33:06,790
S3: it together is not about cynicism. It's just the reality

693
00:33:06,790 --> 00:33:07,570
S3: of like, you mean.

694
00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:09,400
S2: The actual execution and delivery of the.

695
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,800
S3: I don't think it makes it any less inauthentic that

696
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,620
S3: they decided to do this and release this song. But

697
00:33:14,620 --> 00:33:16,540
S3: I completely agree with Oz. I think she probably gave

698
00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:19,630
S3: her the heads up as a courtesy. And then Lorde said, well,

699
00:33:19,630 --> 00:33:21,310
S3: why don't I feature on it? And what I now

700
00:33:21,310 --> 00:33:24,010
S3: want to see is a Taylor remix of sympathy as

701
00:33:24,010 --> 00:33:27,940
S3: a knife, which is the Charli XCX song about Taylor Swift.

702
00:33:27,940 --> 00:33:30,310
S3: So now I'm hoping Taylor's going to pop on.

703
00:33:30,490 --> 00:33:32,560
S2: What I what we all really want to see is

704
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,050
S2: Drake and Kendrick work it out on the remix. Yeah,

705
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,950
S2: I did think this.

706
00:33:35,950 --> 00:33:36,850
S4: Was no one.

707
00:33:36,850 --> 00:33:38,230
S1: Wants to see either of those two things.

708
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:39,070
S4: Just for the record, but I did.

709
00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:41,230
S2: Think I did think in the context of this year

710
00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:44,230
S2: that's been so dominated, um, musically by this whole, like,

711
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:46,780
S2: you know, narrative around feuds and, and like the Drake

712
00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,170
S2: and Kendrick thing, which I think, like, just as an aside,

713
00:33:50,170 --> 00:33:53,860
S2: seems increasingly ridiculous, like with more distance, I don't know, like,

714
00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:55,840
S2: you know, I know Kendrick is the winner and he

715
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,400
S2: had that big pop out show and stuff, but I

716
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,140
S2: just the more I listened to those songs, I'm like,

717
00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:02,290
S2: I can't believe this happened. And anyway, um, but particularly

718
00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:04,540
S2: then you say something like this and it's such an

719
00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:07,840
S2: interesting way to like, approach, you know, the feud that's

720
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,890
S2: become this construct in, in music these days. And particularly

721
00:34:11,890 --> 00:34:13,690
S2: I thought what was so great was, you know, we're

722
00:34:13,690 --> 00:34:15,700
S2: in this era, I think Pitchfork mentioned it of like

723
00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:17,980
S2: calling it detective pop, of which, you know, our Lord

724
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:20,470
S2: and Savior Taylor Swift is kind of leading that where,

725
00:34:20,469 --> 00:34:22,060
S2: you know, you write these pop music songs and they're

726
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:24,160
S2: full of Easter eggs, and your fans, like, lose their

727
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,530
S2: minds trying to figure out what's going on. And this like,

728
00:34:26,530 --> 00:34:28,690
S2: seemed like that. And then instead of like, leaving us

729
00:34:28,690 --> 00:34:31,360
S2: all to speculate and, and like this, you know, churning

730
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,460
S2: of ideas and negativity and oh, is it about this person?

731
00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:35,739
S2: It's about that person. Instead, they just, like, got on

732
00:34:35,739 --> 00:34:37,779
S2: a new remix of the song and, like, blew everyone

733
00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:40,210
S2: away in the nicest way possible. I thought it was

734
00:34:40,210 --> 00:34:43,060
S2: just like such a aside from the song being great and,

735
00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:45,790
S2: you know, a kind of reflection of why the album

736
00:34:45,790 --> 00:34:48,009
S2: is so good. It was in such an interesting and

737
00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:51,700
S2: smart way to like, nullify this, you know, story that

738
00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:54,670
S2: was brewing and also create a new moment for the album,

739
00:34:54,670 --> 00:34:57,160
S2: which is already dominating, you know, pop culture anyway. Yeah, totally.

740
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,830
S3: I feel like there's a real self-reflexiveness and self-awareness about

741
00:34:59,830 --> 00:35:02,770
S3: it because female pop stars are like historically, obviously pitted

742
00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:05,230
S3: up against each other. There can only be one like,

743
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:08,919
S3: you know, Britney and Christina, Katy and Taylor. And so

744
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,360
S3: I think that this is completely reclaiming that feud narrative. Um,

745
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,630
S3: and this is about, you know, female pop driven reconciliation

746
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:19,720
S3: and female pop stars building each other up, which is

747
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,060
S3: extending beyond this song as well.

748
00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:25,240
S1: Absolutely. And I think to to your point, Thomas, about

749
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,850
S1: the detective pop of it, I think unless you were

750
00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:30,790
S1: like very frequent in the London club scene in the

751
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:32,890
S1: past 12 to 18 months, you probably had no idea

752
00:35:32,890 --> 00:35:34,780
S1: that there was like this Charlie Lorde feud. So it

753
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:37,960
S1: wasn't something that had been seeded already. And I think

754
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,029
S1: we spoke about this when the album was first released.

755
00:35:40,030 --> 00:35:44,250
S1: I think unlike. Something like Tortured Poets Department. The album

756
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:48,090
S1: sure has some biographical elements to it, but it works

757
00:35:48,090 --> 00:35:50,219
S1: just on a level of being a good album. It

758
00:35:50,219 --> 00:35:53,279
S1: doesn't need you to just pass everything through. Who is

759
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,110
S1: this song about? Oh my God, I can't believe we're

760
00:35:55,110 --> 00:35:57,810
S1: finding out about this relationship and this breakup. I think

761
00:35:57,810 --> 00:36:01,920
S1: Tortured Poets kind of entirely rests on people caring a

762
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,200
S1: lot about that stuff. I think the Charli record has

763
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:10,169
S1: some of that stuff, but just is a really fun, brash, dancey,

764
00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:14,760
S1: kind of progressive pop album on its own without needing

765
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,550
S1: deep knowledge or lore about what's going on in Charli's life.

766
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:19,590
S2: Yeah, and I think for me, that's what I liked

767
00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:22,020
S2: so much about it. Like, I think, you know, we

768
00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:25,500
S2: are in this funny era of, you know, like that

769
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,550
S2: Detective Pop, but also it feels like lots of these

770
00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:32,160
S2: artists are going through this, like movement where they're like, okay,

771
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,900
S2: the way to connect with the audience is to present

772
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,180
S2: myself as that, really, you know, like, just like you

773
00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:38,910
S2: and like salt of the earth and really authentic and vulnerable.

774
00:36:38,910 --> 00:36:42,840
S2: And that's kind of the current trend. And I feel

775
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,510
S2: like although there is lots of that in brat, it's

776
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:47,939
S2: not like posturing to do that. It's very much just like,

777
00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:49,860
S2: this is my weird life, and these are the things

778
00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:51,509
S2: I do, and these are the anxieties I have and

779
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,390
S2: all my different neuroses. But I don't feel like charli's

780
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:56,549
S2: like really trying to make us convince that she's one

781
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:57,810
S2: of us, I think.

782
00:36:57,810 --> 00:37:00,990
S1: Yeah, that's a really good point, because the aw shucks

783
00:37:00,989 --> 00:37:04,260
S1: thing that Taylor does, it just always has more and

784
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:07,830
S1: more recently felt hollow because she's not like us. Like,

785
00:37:07,830 --> 00:37:11,550
S1: you know, maybe she has some anxieties that we share. Like, maybe,

786
00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:14,130
S1: but she's not like us. I don't know how much

787
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:17,100
S1: Charli is like us either, but when she talks about

788
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:19,740
S1: her life and even on that track with Lorde, when

789
00:37:19,739 --> 00:37:22,770
S1: they're talking about the way they are misinterpreting each other

790
00:37:22,770 --> 00:37:25,680
S1: and the public messages they send versus how they feel

791
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,160
S1: inwardly like that can apply to any human's relationship, like

792
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,859
S1: that actually feels more relatable and more vulnerable than someone

793
00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:34,410
S1: getting on stage and saying, I get it. I was

794
00:37:34,410 --> 00:37:37,290
S1: once like a young teenage girl who was worried about

795
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:40,589
S1: guys like you that feels a bit put on, whereas

796
00:37:40,590 --> 00:37:43,170
S1: the way that Charli and Lorde are doing it doesn't.

797
00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:47,879
S3: Yeah, I think it's a spectrum, and I almost think, well,

798
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,009
S3: it makes sense to compare them. I think their artistic

799
00:37:50,010 --> 00:37:54,419
S3: projects are very different. And you would put, like Charli

800
00:37:54,420 --> 00:37:58,650
S3: XCX and Chappell Roan at one end of the pop spectrum,

801
00:37:58,650 --> 00:38:02,100
S3: which is very avant garde pop, and Taylor at the

802
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:05,009
S3: other end of the spectrum. So I guess I think

803
00:38:05,010 --> 00:38:09,239
S3: they're hitting different points intentionally. So I almost think, yeah,

804
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,750
S3: I it makes sense to compare them. But really, I

805
00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:15,959
S3: think Charli and Chappell Rowan are the next development of pop,

806
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,050
S3: because Taylor has dominated the landscape for so long. And

807
00:38:19,050 --> 00:38:22,799
S3: as we know, culture moves forward when there's a reaction against,

808
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,110
S3: you know, what came before. So I think we're seeing

809
00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:29,070
S3: the future of pop versus kind of what we have

810
00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:31,710
S3: had or what has dominated for the last few years.

811
00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:34,469
S1: Yeah, let's have that broader conversation, because I think, I

812
00:38:34,469 --> 00:38:38,820
S1: think the artists that you're talking about thriving, both because

813
00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:42,450
S1: of Taylor Swift and the work that she's done and

814
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:46,380
S1: as a reaction against the sheer dominance of her sound

815
00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:49,770
S1: at the moment, too, I think this wave of artists

816
00:38:49,770 --> 00:38:53,100
S1: have a lot in common. So, Charli, you mentioned Chappell, Rohan,

817
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:56,370
S1: Sabrina Carpenter, Tinashe. What's interesting about them is they've been

818
00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:59,130
S1: making music for a very long time, all of these artists,

819
00:38:59,130 --> 00:39:01,739
S1: but it's only now that they are starting to get

820
00:39:01,739 --> 00:39:05,610
S1: really big commercial success and charting in a big way.

821
00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:08,790
S1: Last year, Shaad D'Souza, who we mentioned, wrote a really

822
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:11,460
S1: interesting piece for The New York Times examining what they

823
00:39:11,460 --> 00:39:14,219
S1: called the middle class pop star. And this is a

824
00:39:14,219 --> 00:39:16,650
S1: generation of artists, including all of those that I just mentioned,

825
00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:19,320
S1: who burst onto the scene maybe like a decade ago,

826
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,529
S1: had a couple of successful hits. But then even though

827
00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:25,110
S1: they kept releasing albums and even albums that were really

828
00:39:25,110 --> 00:39:28,770
S1: critically well received, they never managed to get big hits.

829
00:39:28,770 --> 00:39:31,320
S1: They never managed to chart or sell out stadiums. They

830
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,989
S1: were just kind of grinding away, making a living, waiting

831
00:39:33,989 --> 00:39:36,060
S1: for that wave that they could ride. The Charli is

832
00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:39,300
S1: a really good example of this. Last year her track Speedrive,

833
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:41,970
S1: which was for the Barbie soundtrack, was actually her first

834
00:39:41,969 --> 00:39:45,600
S1: single to chart in the US in a decade, which

835
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,730
S1: is kind of crazy. And obviously since then she's gone

836
00:39:47,730 --> 00:39:50,700
S1: on with all the success that brat has had. Chaperone.

837
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,370
S1: Another example. She's been making music for seven years. She

838
00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:55,859
S1: was signed to a major label and then dropped. She

839
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:58,529
S1: finally has a commercial hit with her recent single Good

840
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:02,010
S1: Luck Babe. I think that single, plus her tour, plus

841
00:40:02,010 --> 00:40:05,190
S1: being an opener for Olivia Rodrigo, has helped grow her

842
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:07,739
S1: fan base and her album that was actually released nine

843
00:40:07,739 --> 00:40:10,950
S1: months ago, Rise and Fall of a midwest Princess, is

844
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:13,500
S1: charting now. I feel like we haven't really seen that before.

845
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,770
S1: I think in some ways that's as impressive, if not

846
00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:20,190
S1: more impressive, than what Charli is doing because she's been grinding.

847
00:40:20,190 --> 00:40:22,620
S1: This record is not new, but now people are talking

848
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:24,990
S1: about it, and all these outlets that didn't review at

849
00:40:24,989 --> 00:40:26,940
S1: nine months ago have been like, oh, this great album

850
00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:29,219
S1: came out. We should actually talk about it. For the record,

851
00:40:29,219 --> 00:40:31,560
S1: we did talk about it nine months ago. We did

852
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,110
S1: interview chaperoned, didn't we, Mel? We sure.

853
00:40:34,110 --> 00:40:37,169
S3: Did. And, uh, kind of she was not a big

854
00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:40,110
S3: deal then. Um, and I think, well, not as big

855
00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:42,920
S3: a deal. She is now, I think touring her touring

856
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,710
S3: with Olivia Rodrigo as well, put her in front of

857
00:40:45,710 --> 00:40:48,740
S3: a whole lot of, um, key audience for her.

858
00:40:48,739 --> 00:40:50,480
S1: And I guess the other one in that category is

859
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,739
S1: Sabrina Carpenter, who, uh, was the Australian opener for Taylor

860
00:40:54,739 --> 00:40:57,110
S1: Swift and made the most of it with her fun

861
00:40:57,110 --> 00:41:01,670
S1: and cute little outros. She's released five albums over ten years,

862
00:41:01,670 --> 00:41:04,700
S1: but got her first top ten hit with espresso just

863
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:07,250
S1: this year, followed up with please, please, please, which went

864
00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:11,029
S1: number one. That's pretty extraordinary. Uh, Tinashe has been making

865
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:13,820
S1: music for a decade, is finally charting with her recent

866
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:17,149
S1: single nasty. This is a really interesting moment, and I

867
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:20,330
S1: don't want to discuss it all in the context of

868
00:41:20,330 --> 00:41:23,120
S1: Taylor Swift, because I think we talk about Taylor a lot,

869
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,940
S1: but it's hard to not talk about like a generation

870
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:30,110
S1: of female pop stars without talking about the big ones there.

871
00:41:30,110 --> 00:41:35,030
S1: And I agree with you, Mel, that they're not doing

872
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:37,520
S1: the same things, which is, I think, why these guys

873
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,130
S1: are finding so much success. Like I think Taylor did

874
00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:44,300
S1: two things. She managed to convince a generation of young

875
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,779
S1: people post-Covid that going out and seeing live shows is

876
00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:50,450
S1: really fun and really exciting, and I think that has

877
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:53,810
S1: probably helped kick start people's interest in going to see

878
00:41:53,810 --> 00:41:58,250
S1: Sabrina and Olivia and Chappell and this other generation, too.

879
00:41:58,250 --> 00:42:02,330
S1: And she's probably pushed this idea of fun. Wild shows

880
00:42:02,330 --> 00:42:04,100
S1: are a thing for young people to do, not just

881
00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:07,730
S1: sit at home on TikTok and stream music, but also

882
00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:11,690
S1: her sound. And I think this applies to like, Olivia

883
00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:14,150
S1: and Billie Eilish as well. So to broaden out those

884
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:16,580
S1: kind of big three that have dominated pop for the

885
00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:20,150
S1: last few years, it's very ballady. It's very flat. That

886
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:22,730
S1: kind of Jack Antonoff production that is that is dominated

887
00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:24,830
S1: a lot of the pop sound. It's not particularly dancey,

888
00:42:24,830 --> 00:42:27,260
S1: it's not particularly sexy, it's not particularly fun. And I

889
00:42:27,260 --> 00:42:30,950
S1: think people have clearly been craving that sense of, I

890
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:33,710
S1: want to go and like, get sweaty and lose it

891
00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:37,700
S1: a little bit. And I think what Charli and Chappell

892
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:39,770
S1: and even Sabrina have, even if it's not all in

893
00:42:39,770 --> 00:42:41,570
S1: the music, it is in the lyrics like it's a

894
00:42:41,570 --> 00:42:44,299
S1: bit sexier, it's a bit more raw, it's a bit

895
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:48,080
S1: more kind of like intimate and yeah, maybe horny even.

896
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,230
S1: I think that space has existed as a vacuum there,

897
00:42:51,230 --> 00:42:55,880
S1: and these guys have both benefited from like the, the tailwind,

898
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,450
S1: if you will, that that Taylor has created and filled

899
00:42:59,450 --> 00:43:02,150
S1: that gap with a very different sound that used to

900
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:05,330
S1: dominate pop, like the Britney Christina thing. And these guys

901
00:43:05,330 --> 00:43:07,100
S1: have found their new way of doing it. That's sort

902
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,279
S1: of my take as to why they seem to be.

903
00:43:11,010 --> 00:43:14,009
S1: Achieving commercial success when they've just been grinding for such

904
00:43:14,010 --> 00:43:15,390
S1: a long time, because it's not like they came out

905
00:43:15,390 --> 00:43:18,810
S1: of nowhere. They've been working. It's more their huge reception

906
00:43:18,810 --> 00:43:21,060
S1: they're getting now. That is the interesting and noteworthy thing.

907
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:21,420
S4: Yeah.

908
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:24,569
S3: And I think actually Charli Xcx's album named brat kind

909
00:43:24,570 --> 00:43:28,259
S3: of puts its finger on what these singers that we're

910
00:43:28,260 --> 00:43:30,660
S3: talking about are doing. There's kind of a revelry in

911
00:43:30,660 --> 00:43:35,279
S3: the brattiness. There's a funniness, a theatricality, a nastiness to

912
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,759
S3: it all in a good way. And I do think

913
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,460
S3: that that is a reaction against, you know, what we

914
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:45,570
S3: have seen as before, they're owning the Brattiness. And that's

915
00:43:45,570 --> 00:43:47,940
S3: why a lot of these songs are so fun and

916
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:49,290
S3: they're so delightful.

917
00:43:49,290 --> 00:43:52,140
S2: Yeah. I feel like with, like, Sabrina Carpenter, she, she

918
00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:55,620
S2: has that kind of more like All-American, like brattiness, but like,

919
00:43:55,620 --> 00:43:58,109
S2: it's so all of her like her lyrics and her even, like,

920
00:43:58,110 --> 00:43:59,969
S2: you know, people obviously lost their minds over the video

921
00:43:59,969 --> 00:44:02,790
S2: with Barry Keoghan, but like, the whole way that she's

922
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:05,489
S2: been marketed basically since that eras tour, which like, I

923
00:44:05,489 --> 00:44:09,120
S2: guess really exploded her, it just feels like, you know,

924
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,550
S2: that she doesn't give a fuck. And so therefore you're

925
00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:12,810
S2: like drawn to that.

926
00:44:12,810 --> 00:44:14,970
S3: Yeah, I kind of my only thought is, you know,

927
00:44:14,969 --> 00:44:17,250
S3: I'm a fan of Sabrina. Had to get there for

928
00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:19,680
S3: the nonsense outro at the Swift concert. My only thought

929
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,230
S3: is maybe Sabrina is a bit out of her league

930
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:25,920
S3: in this conversation. Yes, she kind of is celebrating the brattiness,

931
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,010
S3: but I do think she is more of your standard

932
00:44:29,010 --> 00:44:32,969
S3: pop star, not only in her physicality, but that she

933
00:44:32,969 --> 00:44:37,589
S3: came through that Disney network. She was a Disney child star.

934
00:44:37,590 --> 00:44:40,650
S3: She's Jack Antonoff produced. Please, please, please is a very

935
00:44:40,650 --> 00:44:41,370
S3: catchy song.

936
00:44:41,370 --> 00:44:43,710
S2: It's also like, you know, we're getting fed it guerrilla

937
00:44:43,710 --> 00:44:45,240
S2: marketing style every single.

938
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,420
S3: Yeah. And I don't think that that I think that

939
00:44:48,420 --> 00:44:51,089
S3: song needed Barry in the film clip. Like, I think

940
00:44:51,090 --> 00:44:53,160
S3: that song's pretty lucky it had such a good film clip,

941
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,339
S3: because I don't think it's like a pretty particularly interesting song,

942
00:44:56,340 --> 00:44:59,400
S3: as catchy as it is. So I would differentiate. I'd

943
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,000
S3: probably put her in a slightly different category to Billie

944
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,850
S3: Eilish and Charli XCX and Chapel Rohan. Like, I think

945
00:45:05,850 --> 00:45:08,550
S3: she's maybe, maybe she's the mid-ground there.

946
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:10,680
S1: Yeah, I think, I think that's that's fair. I mean,

947
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,810
S1: I also don't really love please, please, please, but I

948
00:45:12,810 --> 00:45:15,149
S1: really like espresso and I kind of think that she's

949
00:45:15,150 --> 00:45:17,940
S1: trained in that Disney world. But for her to just

950
00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:21,660
S1: keep pushing and pushing and pushing when so many others

951
00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:24,150
S1: would have and have given up speaks to something in

952
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:28,529
S1: her kind of character tenaciousness her desire to just like,

953
00:45:28,530 --> 00:45:33,810
S1: make it work. And I think espresso suggests a self-awareness,

954
00:45:33,810 --> 00:45:37,590
S1: a self-irony, a humor that that does make her a

955
00:45:37,590 --> 00:45:40,710
S1: little bit different to someone as like maybe earnest as

956
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:43,050
S1: Billie and her music like that track, like famously like

957
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:46,380
S1: that's that's me espresso. That's the most memorable lyric of

958
00:45:46,380 --> 00:45:48,569
S1: the year. People love it. You know, I'm working late

959
00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:50,790
S1: because I'm a singer. Switched up like Nintendo. Like there's

960
00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:54,060
S1: a fun to her that I think has helped propel

961
00:45:54,060 --> 00:45:57,239
S1: her and I think makes her. I think Mid-ground is

962
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,339
S1: a good way of putting it. Like there's an aesthetic

963
00:45:59,340 --> 00:46:01,259
S1: that is familiar, if you like the more kind of

964
00:46:01,260 --> 00:46:03,629
S1: staid pop stuff, and then there is a knowingness that

965
00:46:03,630 --> 00:46:05,520
S1: makes it feel a bit more exciting. And yeah.

966
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,150
S4: I totally agree.

967
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:09,210
S3: Probably put Olivia Rodrigo a bit in that category as well.

968
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,640
S2: Oseman I did want to ask. Um, obviously Chappell Roan's

969
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,670
S2: having a big moment. Uh, how do you feel about

970
00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:16,950
S2: the fact that she went on tour in the US

971
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:20,820
S2: and Canada with the great Vance Joy in 2017? And

972
00:46:20,820 --> 00:46:23,520
S2: how much of that do you attribute to her current moment?

973
00:46:24,270 --> 00:46:27,210
S1: Um, probably not a lot considering taking another.

974
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:28,650
S4: Seven years to.

975
00:46:29,070 --> 00:46:32,190
S1: To make it. Um, I was like late to, to Chappell.

976
00:46:32,190 --> 00:46:34,709
S1: I know that we had that profile on her last year,

977
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:37,770
S1: but I only really started listening to to that record

978
00:46:37,770 --> 00:46:39,390
S1: in the last couple of weeks. I really like it.

979
00:46:39,390 --> 00:46:42,930
S1: It's really interesting. I thought it would sound more like, uh,

980
00:46:42,930 --> 00:46:45,900
S1: good Luck babe, which I kind of enjoy, but sort

981
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,089
S1: of feels like a Kate Bush impersonation to me, whereas

982
00:46:48,090 --> 00:46:52,140
S1: I think the album is, like really fun. That opening track,

983
00:46:52,739 --> 00:46:55,080
S1: Femi Nomenon, is one of the best opening tracks I've

984
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,960
S1: ever heard. And again, even though I wouldn't think about

985
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,970
S1: it from her aesthetic and from that song from the

986
00:46:59,969 --> 00:47:03,120
S1: single Good Luck Babe. But it's dancier. There's like a

987
00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:05,220
S1: beat or there's a drive to it. And again, I

988
00:47:05,219 --> 00:47:09,120
S1: think that is reminding us of, you know, like Lorde's

989
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,210
S1: Melodrama was one of the last really big dancey pop records.

990
00:47:12,210 --> 00:47:15,660
S1: Dua Lipa's Future Nostalgia, another really good dancey pop record.

991
00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:17,969
S1: And in the four years since, we haven't really had

992
00:47:17,969 --> 00:47:21,090
S1: something with big, fun, dancey hits. I mean, Dua Lipa's

993
00:47:21,090 --> 00:47:24,060
S1: most recent album didn't really hit. I think, like, there

994
00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:26,490
S1: was a sound people wanted to engage with, and they

995
00:47:26,489 --> 00:47:28,500
S1: were hoping it would come from some of these artists

996
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:32,399
S1: and it didn't. So they filled that gap with these others,

997
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,910
S1: and I kind of hope that's more the direction we

998
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:39,419
S1: go for with, with more of the just. It sounds

999
00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:43,230
S1: really basic to say, but some more club dance themed pop.

1000
00:47:43,230 --> 00:47:46,440
S1: Bringing that back, bringing that early 2000 vibe back. I

1001
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,960
S1: think we've had enough of the guitars and the ballads,

1002
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,320
S1: and I think particularly because hip hop is in such

1003
00:47:52,590 --> 00:47:55,530
S1: a state of the doldrums at the moment, and it's like,

1004
00:47:55,530 --> 00:47:57,630
S1: if it's going to be country and pop, can the

1005
00:47:57,630 --> 00:47:59,880
S1: pop at least be something that I want to, you know,

1006
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:01,230
S1: have fun to? It's going to.

1007
00:48:01,230 --> 00:48:02,850
S2: Be funny, like in the context of all this and

1008
00:48:02,850 --> 00:48:05,340
S2: obviously this new guard and then, you know like kind

1009
00:48:05,340 --> 00:48:07,650
S2: of Taylor overseeing everything. And then July 11th we get

1010
00:48:07,650 --> 00:48:10,710
S2: the new Katy Perry record, which has already had. Like

1011
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:13,319
S2: a kind of weird reception, which I think you can

1012
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,410
S2: actually look at as to what people you know are

1013
00:48:16,410 --> 00:48:19,170
S2: thinking about pop music right now. Because like, you've got

1014
00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:22,140
S2: Katy Perry, who was one of those like, you know,

1015
00:48:22,140 --> 00:48:24,120
S2: like back in the day, it was like her and

1016
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,450
S2: Taylor and, you know, they kind of like dominated the landscape.

1017
00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:29,820
S2: She hasn't really released a record for ages. I think

1018
00:48:29,820 --> 00:48:33,240
S2: it's still untitled. People are calling it Cp6. Um, I

1019
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,489
S2: think she's been working with Doctor Luke to producer who,

1020
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,770
S2: you know, famously had that whole situation with Kesha. Um, but, like. Yeah. What? Like,

1021
00:48:40,770 --> 00:48:43,110
S2: where does someone like a Katy Perry then enter into

1022
00:48:43,110 --> 00:48:45,000
S2: the landscape, having kind of been out of the game

1023
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,180
S2: and perhaps I feel like the general vibe on her

1024
00:48:48,210 --> 00:48:50,580
S2: is a bit like, uh, Katy Perry like, yeah.

1025
00:48:50,580 --> 00:48:52,410
S3: I think what people have heard from the kind of

1026
00:48:52,410 --> 00:48:55,020
S3: first single as well is not boding well. It's already

1027
00:48:55,020 --> 00:48:57,930
S3: become a bit of a joke. I feel like the

1028
00:48:57,930 --> 00:49:01,589
S3: brattiness that we're talking about with these, the new current crop,

1029
00:49:01,590 --> 00:49:05,940
S3: the self-awareness, is not there in kind of Katy Perry's.

1030
00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:10,170
S3: And it's a feminism that is maybe not as nuanced

1031
00:49:10,170 --> 00:49:13,920
S3: as what these women are exploring in their in their,

1032
00:49:13,950 --> 00:49:17,400
S3: their music. You know, it is very even raw. Like,

1033
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,710
S3: really what we've heard of the new single is kind

1034
00:49:19,710 --> 00:49:22,860
S3: of like the song raw. It's we are strong, you know,

1035
00:49:22,860 --> 00:49:25,920
S3: it's almost like a he was a Helen. Uh, Helen

1036
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,319
S3: Reddy was strong. Strong. We are invincible. Like that's what

1037
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,220
S3: she's doing. But many years later. So I think it's

1038
00:49:32,219 --> 00:49:35,640
S3: not gonna land particularly. Well, not that we've heard the album,

1039
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,500
S3: but from what we have heard, it's not going to

1040
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:40,110
S3: land particularly well in this context.

1041
00:49:40,110 --> 00:49:40,650
S4: Yeah.

1042
00:49:40,650 --> 00:49:44,340
S1: It's so interesting the way that like, contexts that music's

1043
00:49:44,340 --> 00:49:46,950
S1: received and are created because we've been talking about these artists,

1044
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:48,660
S1: but there's there's so many other artists that I feel

1045
00:49:48,660 --> 00:49:50,820
S1: like have been trying to play in this space for

1046
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:53,430
S1: a while, and they've released amazing music and it's done well,

1047
00:49:53,460 --> 00:49:56,040
S1: but maybe, like, not popped off in the way that

1048
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,680
S1: some of this stuff has. I think about even Troye Sivan. Right?

1049
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,469
S1: Like rush and my mum, these are great songs who

1050
00:50:01,469 --> 00:50:03,510
S1: they did really well. They got good receptions, but I

1051
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:06,330
S1: almost feel like if rush dropped now, while everyone is

1052
00:50:06,330 --> 00:50:09,840
S1: like just looking for that kind of club pop music,

1053
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,969
S1: it would go ballistic. And I mean, he's touring with

1054
00:50:11,969 --> 00:50:15,180
S1: Charli XCX, so maybe he will end up with like

1055
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:18,030
S1: the kind of massive success that I think he deserves.

1056
00:50:18,060 --> 00:50:18,210
S1: Can you.

1057
00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:19,680
S2: Imagine how loose those shows will.

1058
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,270
S1: Be? Yeah, they're going to be a lot of fun.

1059
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,529
S1: The other, the other one I've been thinking about is

1060
00:50:22,530 --> 00:50:25,230
S1: Carly Rae Jepsen, who again in that middle class pop

1061
00:50:25,230 --> 00:50:27,690
S1: tier has just been releasing some of the best pop

1062
00:50:27,690 --> 00:50:31,290
S1: music ever. None of it charts, really, but she's great,

1063
00:50:31,290 --> 00:50:32,969
S1: and I hope that she can find a way to

1064
00:50:32,969 --> 00:50:34,470
S1: ride this wave to.

1065
00:50:34,469 --> 00:50:37,080
S2: Ever since I first became friends with Oseman, I've never

1066
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,420
S2: met a greater Carly Rae Jepsen. He posts about her

1067
00:50:39,420 --> 00:50:42,030
S2: like once a week being like, guys don't sleep on

1068
00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:44,490
S2: the new Carly Rae Jepsen track. Everyone's like, man, like

1069
00:50:44,610 --> 00:50:45,930
S2: Call Me maybe, I don't know. Yeah, I.

1070
00:50:45,930 --> 00:50:47,820
S3: Don't think I've ever met a like someone who has

1071
00:50:47,820 --> 00:50:48,900
S3: ever spoken about her to.

1072
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:52,109
S4: Me. She is your John Mayer. Yeah, yeah.

1073
00:50:52,110 --> 00:50:54,840
S1: And I will happily own that because she's fucking awesome

1074
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,050
S1: and has been slept on for like, the last ten years.

1075
00:50:58,050 --> 00:50:58,740
S4: I'm going to go back and.

1076
00:50:58,739 --> 00:51:01,410
S3: Revisit and we'll pick let's follow up next week because

1077
00:51:01,410 --> 00:51:02,489
S3: I'm going to go on the deep dive.

1078
00:51:02,489 --> 00:51:04,170
S1: Yeah. Emotion that's my Impress Your friends.

1079
00:51:04,170 --> 00:51:05,819
S2: I know I wasn't there obviously for the Charli XCX

1080
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,580
S2: chat and you may have discussed this. So like just

1081
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:11,850
S2: let me know. But I mean it's funny because the

1082
00:51:11,850 --> 00:51:15,810
S2: her album cover is having very much a like cool

1083
00:51:15,810 --> 00:51:18,509
S2: book Instagram moment like that is. Did you discuss it

1084
00:51:18,510 --> 00:51:19,110
S2: at length?

1085
00:51:19,260 --> 00:51:20,280
S3: No we didn't.

1086
00:51:20,310 --> 00:51:22,200
S1: No we didn't, we didn't. But she's made she's created

1087
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,419
S1: a website where you can kind of generate, you know,

1088
00:51:24,420 --> 00:51:29,009
S1: the Bratz style iconography and font and create your memes.

1089
00:51:29,010 --> 00:51:31,080
S1: And it's everywhere right now, even like to the point where,

1090
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:32,730
S1: like political parties are using it, which has made it

1091
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:33,780
S1: a bit cringe. Yeah.

1092
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:36,330
S2: And like so many people on social media have changed

1093
00:51:36,330 --> 00:51:38,819
S2: their like, you know, their Instagram picture to just like

1094
00:51:38,820 --> 00:51:41,310
S2: the lime green and their name. It's like such a

1095
00:51:41,310 --> 00:51:43,410
S2: genius bit of marketing. And I feel like I think

1096
00:51:43,410 --> 00:51:46,410
S2: I read somewhere that previously she hadn't really tapped into

1097
00:51:46,410 --> 00:51:48,930
S2: her record label's marketing resources. And this is the first

1098
00:51:48,930 --> 00:51:50,910
S2: album where she, like, let them really into the process.

1099
00:51:50,910 --> 00:51:53,219
S2: And I mean, maybe a good shout in retrospect, because

1100
00:51:53,219 --> 00:51:55,140
S2: I feel like, as simple as it is that the

1101
00:51:55,140 --> 00:51:58,200
S2: shocking lime green and just the one word, it's like,

1102
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,140
S2: you know, when people do, including us, our pop culture

1103
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:03,989
S2: roundups for the year that the brat cover is like

1104
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,030
S2: one of the images of the year completely dominates.

1105
00:52:06,030 --> 00:52:07,710
S3: Did you see that very funny thing about how for

1106
00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:11,009
S3: the promo for her, um, for her tour, her promo

1107
00:52:11,010 --> 00:52:13,560
S3: poster is like made to look like a little what

1108
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,770
S3: might be call it a small bag. Um. Of what? Well,

1109
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:18,930
S3: you could fill it with whatever you want, but the

1110
00:52:18,930 --> 00:52:21,960
S3: Drug Administration board in the UK took that. It was

1111
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,630
S3: a suggestion that you might take some party drugs to

1112
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:27,299
S3: the Charli XCX. So she redid the promo with a

1113
00:52:27,300 --> 00:52:29,790
S3: little sandwich in the bag. Um, is.

1114
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:31,950
S4: It was so good. That's really funny. Yeah.

1115
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,470
S1: That's the kind of marketing you can't buy when like,

1116
00:52:34,469 --> 00:52:37,980
S1: the government's like, this is too fun, you know, tone

1117
00:52:37,980 --> 00:52:41,730
S1: it down. Um, all right. Before we ran out the

1118
00:52:41,730 --> 00:52:44,460
S1: episode with my conversation with Austin, we have to do

1119
00:52:44,460 --> 00:52:48,450
S1: our Impress Your Friends segment where we share something we

1120
00:52:48,450 --> 00:52:51,930
S1: listen to, watched, read, or consumed in the world of culture.

1121
00:52:51,989 --> 00:52:56,430
S1: Mine is a podcast, a fellow podcast on our network

1122
00:52:56,430 --> 00:53:00,810
S1: produced by our old friend, the wonderful Ruby Schwartz. Uh,

1123
00:53:00,810 --> 00:53:03,780
S1: it's a podcast called Trial by Water. Uh, it's hosted

1124
00:53:03,780 --> 00:53:08,730
S1: by investigative journalist Michael Bachelard. And it is about the, uh,

1125
00:53:08,730 --> 00:53:12,640
S1: Robert Farquharson. Conviction. He was convicted of killing his three

1126
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,960
S1: children on Father's Day in 2005 by driving them into

1127
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,140
S1: a dam. It's one of Melbourne's biggest kind of like

1128
00:53:20,140 --> 00:53:24,520
S1: recent crime stories, and he's been convicted and found guilty,

1129
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,430
S1: I think twice by juries. Now, uh, Michael Bachelard is

1130
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:31,089
S1: looking at that case and looking at recent developments in technology.

1131
00:53:31,090 --> 00:53:34,810
S1: He's unearthed some new evidence and suggesting that perhaps there's

1132
00:53:34,810 --> 00:53:38,649
S1: more to this case than initially meets the eye. When

1133
00:53:38,650 --> 00:53:41,770
S1: you consider what's gone on in the last couple of decades.

1134
00:53:41,770 --> 00:53:42,970
S1: And I kind of want to give too much away

1135
00:53:42,969 --> 00:53:45,879
S1: because it is just a really fascinating thing to listen.

1136
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,670
S1: There's a couple of episodes to go. It's one of

1137
00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:51,609
S1: the best true crime podcasts I've heard. Maybe my favorite

1138
00:53:51,610 --> 00:53:55,089
S1: true crime podcast coming out of Australia. Couldn't recommend it.

1139
00:53:55,090 --> 00:53:58,779
S1: More trial by water. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

1140
00:53:58,780 --> 00:54:00,850
S2: Yes, I am currently up to date. I listened to

1141
00:54:00,850 --> 00:54:03,100
S2: a lot of them when I was, um, overseas recently

1142
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:04,690
S2: came back from New York. Not sure if you guys know,

1143
00:54:04,690 --> 00:54:07,030
S2: but it's it's amazing. And also it's so good hearing

1144
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:08,830
S2: Ruby's voice. Like occasionally they do that like, you know,

1145
00:54:08,830 --> 00:54:09,700
S2: when they're traveling.

1146
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:11,739
S1: I know I'm like the Leo guy pointing when it's

1147
00:54:11,739 --> 00:54:13,720
S1: like I'm with my producer, Ruby. I'm like, ah.

1148
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,700
S2: I know, I know, we miss you, Ruby. Ah, but yes,

1149
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:18,430
S2: that is great. And I guess, uh, a natural segue.

1150
00:54:18,460 --> 00:54:21,310
S2: Mine is also a podcast this week. Uh, which is odd.

1151
00:54:21,310 --> 00:54:23,650
S2: There you go. Um, I feel like we're really, you know,

1152
00:54:23,650 --> 00:54:26,710
S2: if you like podcasts where it's just friends talking like this, uh,

1153
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:29,049
S2: then you will love the new podcast where everybody knows

1154
00:54:29,050 --> 00:54:32,290
S2: your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. So, like,

1155
00:54:32,290 --> 00:54:34,090
S2: it's kind of if you're a fan of Smartless, which

1156
00:54:34,090 --> 00:54:36,760
S2: I know, you know, people absolutely mad for, I find

1157
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,330
S2: this one really funny. Um, obviously, you know, these guys

1158
00:54:40,330 --> 00:54:43,390
S2: were friends and co-stars on cheers, but it's not like

1159
00:54:43,390 --> 00:54:46,330
S2: a cheers nostalgia pod. It's basically just the two of them. Um,

1160
00:54:46,330 --> 00:54:49,029
S2: it's actually officially called Where Everybody Knows Your Name with

1161
00:54:49,030 --> 00:54:52,089
S2: Ted Danson and sometimes Woody Harrelson, because some episodes they

1162
00:54:52,090 --> 00:54:54,220
S2: just can't find him, which is like the.

1163
00:54:54,219 --> 00:54:55,390
S4: Most Woody Harrelson thing of.

1164
00:54:55,390 --> 00:54:58,390
S2: All time. But basically, uh, you know, it's your classic like,

1165
00:54:58,390 --> 00:54:59,680
S2: they sit down, they catch up for a bit, and

1166
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,900
S2: then each week they have a special guest. Um, the

1167
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:06,339
S2: guests are amazing Eric Andre, Will Arnett, Kristen Bell, Jane Fonda. Like, there's,

1168
00:55:06,340 --> 00:55:08,739
S2: you know, the kind of roll call of Hollywood stars

1169
00:55:08,739 --> 00:55:11,230
S2: that they're obviously all friends with. Um, but, yeah, I've

1170
00:55:11,230 --> 00:55:12,880
S2: always been a big fan of those, like, kind of

1171
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,160
S2: like talky podcasts where you get to see these really

1172
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,770
S2: famous people in a context where they're all, you know, obviously,

1173
00:55:17,770 --> 00:55:20,650
S2: just like long time friends chatting about their careers. So, yeah, uh,

1174
00:55:20,650 --> 00:55:23,140
S2: once you've listened to every single episode of The Drop

1175
00:55:23,140 --> 00:55:25,390
S2: and then Trial by Water, you are allowed to listen

1176
00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:27,670
S2: to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and

1177
00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:28,330
S2: Woody Harrelson.

1178
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,640
S3: I will definitely take that up. I quite like Smartless,

1179
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,830
S3: except I feel like when they have a guest who

1180
00:55:32,830 --> 00:55:36,340
S3: isn't funny, it's just quite a painful listen.

1181
00:55:36,340 --> 00:55:36,910
S4: Yeah, I.

1182
00:55:36,910 --> 00:55:39,160
S2: Know it can be, but Smartless has like, it's, you know,

1183
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,400
S2: it's become this like huge monolith now and they're just

1184
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,589
S2: so dominant. Um, but yeah, I really like Smartless. And

1185
00:55:44,590 --> 00:55:45,820
S2: this is in the same space.

1186
00:55:45,820 --> 00:55:48,070
S3: Oh, great. I will listen to that. And then a

1187
00:55:48,070 --> 00:55:50,290
S3: surprise for me, I've got, I've got a book for

1188
00:55:50,290 --> 00:55:53,169
S3: this week. Um, this one was a kind of random

1189
00:55:53,170 --> 00:55:55,930
S3: find because I was didn't have a book to take

1190
00:55:55,930 --> 00:55:57,130
S3: home with me, and I didn't want to be alone

1191
00:55:57,130 --> 00:56:00,730
S3: with my with my thoughts. So I just, I just

1192
00:56:00,730 --> 00:56:02,410
S3: picked this one up from my desk, which is kind

1193
00:56:02,410 --> 00:56:03,370
S3: of fun when you do that, right?

1194
00:56:03,370 --> 00:56:04,660
S4: When you I mean, to be fair, you have 1000

1195
00:56:04,660 --> 00:56:04,930
S4: books on.

1196
00:56:04,930 --> 00:56:05,590
S2: Your desk, so.

1197
00:56:05,710 --> 00:56:06,489
S4: I know, but usually I.

1198
00:56:06,489 --> 00:56:08,109
S3: Like, have a plan for the next book I'll read.

1199
00:56:08,110 --> 00:56:09,399
S3: And then I was just like, oh, I'll give this

1200
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,100
S3: one a go. It's called hard by a great Forest.

1201
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:16,870
S3: It's by Leo Badiashile. It's a really funny first book.

1202
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:20,620
S3: It's about, um, a young man who leaves his home

1203
00:56:20,620 --> 00:56:23,380
S3: in Georgia with his brother and dad during Russia's occupation

1204
00:56:23,380 --> 00:56:26,560
S3: of South Ossetia. And then later on, he goes back

1205
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,110
S3: to try and find his family, who have also gone

1206
00:56:29,110 --> 00:56:32,260
S3: back to try to resolve some stuff in their family past. Um,

1207
00:56:32,260 --> 00:56:34,480
S3: it's a really great read, which is all about the

1208
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,980
S3: country's troubled past, the traumas of war, home, family, belonging,

1209
00:56:39,489 --> 00:56:41,650
S3: all of those things, but really funny. And essentially it

1210
00:56:41,650 --> 00:56:45,880
S3: is a journey story. There's a quest that he embarks on. Um,

1211
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,270
S3: and also, I have not read much fiction about Georgia

1212
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:52,060
S3: or set in Georgia. So, um, I have been annoying

1213
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:55,120
S3: everyone with fun facts about Georgia lately, but I think

1214
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:56,110
S3: a good read. I think you would really.

1215
00:56:56,110 --> 00:56:56,620
S4: Like it too.

1216
00:56:56,620 --> 00:56:59,140
S1: What's your funniest, um, Georgia fact?

1217
00:56:59,140 --> 00:57:02,320
S3: Uh, funny, feels wrong or.

1218
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:02,920
S4: Just.

1219
00:57:03,219 --> 00:57:03,880
S3: A lot of war?

1220
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,620
S4: They're okay. They've been through a lot.

1221
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:07,750
S1: I think they invented wine. The Georgians. Yes.

1222
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:10,180
S3: That actually. And there's quite a bit about the significance

1223
00:57:10,180 --> 00:57:12,489
S3: of wine. So I did actually say to my partner

1224
00:57:12,489 --> 00:57:15,070
S3: that we should get some Georgian wine over the weekend to.

1225
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:16,030
S4: It's like a guilt thing.

1226
00:57:16,030 --> 00:57:17,440
S3: Yeah. When I read, I go all in.

1227
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,750
S1: That's great. Well, to end the show, we have my

1228
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:23,230
S1: conversation with Austin Butler, who stars in the Bikeriders. It

1229
00:57:23,230 --> 00:57:26,620
S1: depicts the rise and fall of an outlaw motorcycle club

1230
00:57:26,620 --> 00:57:30,460
S1: in America in the 1960s. The film also features Jodie Comer,

1231
00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:34,240
S1: Tom Hardy and Mike Feist from challenges. Austin and I

1232
00:57:34,270 --> 00:57:37,240
S1: spoke just after the film's Australian premiere at the Sydney

1233
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,900
S1: Film Festival. The film is out next week on July 4th.

1234
00:57:40,900 --> 00:57:43,240
S1: Go watch it in the cinema. I hope you enjoy

1235
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:54,130
S1: my conversation with Austin. Hey, Austin, thanks so much for

1236
00:57:54,130 --> 00:57:55,900
S1: joining me on the show today.

1237
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:56,860
S5: It's my pleasure.

1238
00:57:57,790 --> 00:58:01,600
S1: Uh, we're chatting just the morning after you attended the

1239
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,780
S1: Sydney Film Festival premiere of The Bike Riders. How are

1240
00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:06,280
S1: you finding Sydney so far?

1241
00:58:06,310 --> 00:58:08,920
S5: Well, I love Sydney. I've spent a lot of time

1242
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,410
S5: here and I love it here. Last night was really wet.

1243
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,320
S5: I don't know if you. You saw it there last night,

1244
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,370
S5: but I was. Yeah.

1245
00:58:15,370 --> 00:58:16,540
S1: It's like a rain bomb.

1246
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:20,650
S5: Apparently by the time that by the time I was

1247
00:58:20,650 --> 00:58:24,310
S5: doing interviews on the carpet, I was, uh, it was,

1248
00:58:24,310 --> 00:58:26,500
S5: it was as though I jumped in a swimming pool.

1249
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,810
S1: I saw the photos. You looked great. Oh. Thank you.

1250
00:58:32,140 --> 00:58:36,100
S1: You looked really good. Um, over the last couple of years, Austin,

1251
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:39,460
S1: you've been in some incredibly big productions. I mean, just

1252
00:58:39,460 --> 00:58:43,120
S1: this year. Dune part two, Masters of the air. Before that, Elvis,

1253
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,750
S1: which you obviously nominated for an Oscar in the Bike Riders,

1254
00:58:46,750 --> 00:58:50,170
S1: feels like a much more intimate film, a bit less

1255
00:58:50,170 --> 00:58:53,170
S1: flashy than some of those bigger scale productions. Can you

1256
00:58:53,170 --> 00:58:56,020
S1: tell me a little bit about your path to getting

1257
00:58:56,020 --> 00:58:58,210
S1: involved with this film? What was it that attracted you

1258
00:58:58,210 --> 00:58:59,260
S1: to this role?

1259
00:58:59,530 --> 00:59:02,200
S5: Well, I mean, that's one of the elements of it

1260
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,870
S5: is it felt different from some of the other things

1261
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:09,130
S5: I've been doing. It was really Jeff Nichols. I've been

1262
00:59:09,130 --> 00:59:12,310
S5: a massive fan of his for a long time. Uh,

1263
00:59:12,310 --> 00:59:15,160
S5: I remember years ago doing a Jeff Nichols marathon at

1264
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,660
S5: my house, just watching all of it.

1265
00:59:16,660 --> 00:59:17,320
S1: Oh, wow.

1266
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,930
S5: And thinking, oh, if I could ever work with that guy,

1267
00:59:19,930 --> 00:59:23,110
S5: that would be incredible. So when his script came across

1268
00:59:23,110 --> 00:59:27,160
S5: my doorstep and I, uh, and I saw his name

1269
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,440
S5: on it, and I. And then I read it. And

1270
00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:33,370
S5: this whole world, uh, I was a fan of Danny

1271
00:59:33,370 --> 00:59:35,590
S5: Lyons photographs and his book.

1272
00:59:35,740 --> 00:59:36,040
S1: Um.

1273
00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:42,060
S5: And then also this character, I mean. Really, you know,

1274
00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:44,910
S5: I mean, to be completely straightforward. It was just one

1275
00:59:44,910 --> 00:59:49,560
S5: of the coolest characters I'd ever read, and I immediately

1276
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,400
S5: was just drawn to him. And I thought, how how

1277
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,730
S5: exciting that would be to embody him for for the

1278
00:59:56,730 --> 00:59:57,870
S5: duration of filming.

1279
00:59:59,140 --> 01:00:02,920
S1: Yeah, I'm interested in the characterization because you mentioned dandelion.

1280
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,320
S1: The source material for the bike riders is this photo

1281
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,860
S1: book that that he, that he released and he's actually

1282
01:00:08,860 --> 01:00:12,040
S1: played in the movie by Mike Feist. The characters in

1283
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:13,510
S1: the Bike Riders are at least a lot of them

1284
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:17,350
S1: are real people. Is Benny the character you played based

1285
01:00:17,350 --> 01:00:19,660
S1: on one particular person, or is this a kind of

1286
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:22,660
S1: amalgam or a collage of different people involved at the

1287
01:00:22,660 --> 01:00:23,470
S1: club at the time?

1288
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:28,450
S5: Yeah, no, he's based he's he's based on a real person. And, uh,

1289
01:00:28,690 --> 01:00:35,520
S5: even like that, the. You know, the motorcycle police chase. That's.

1290
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,950
S5: There's a real article, you know. Oh, wow.

1291
01:00:38,130 --> 01:00:39,900
S1: That was a real article you're reading out there. Reading out. That's.

1292
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,270
S5: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really like the amount of

1293
01:00:42,270 --> 01:00:45,960
S5: of stoplights or whatever that he went through and, um,

1294
01:00:46,170 --> 01:00:50,700
S5: and but the interesting thing about him is he was

1295
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:52,890
S5: one of the few people in the club that Danny

1296
01:00:52,890 --> 01:00:57,770
S5: never was able to interview. So there's no interview with him.

1297
01:00:57,770 --> 01:01:01,220
S5: You learn about him through what Cathy says about him.

1298
01:01:01,220 --> 01:01:04,580
S5: You learn about him through what other people say about him.

1299
01:01:04,610 --> 01:01:06,590
S5: The other thing is, you never see his face in

1300
01:01:06,590 --> 01:01:09,440
S5: the book. You see him from behind on a motorcycle.

1301
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,980
S5: You see him leaning over a pool table. So he's

1302
01:01:12,980 --> 01:01:16,460
S5: this enigma, he's this mystery. And, um, and then so

1303
01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:21,110
S5: I think as Jeff was crafting the story, he the

1304
01:01:21,110 --> 01:01:22,820
S5: first things that he said to me were, he said,

1305
01:01:22,820 --> 01:01:25,310
S5: I see Benny as an empty glass that everybody wants

1306
01:01:25,310 --> 01:01:30,050
S5: to fill with their own expectations. And and they want

1307
01:01:30,050 --> 01:01:35,030
S5: to put responsibilities on him, but he can't be filled. And, um,

1308
01:01:35,570 --> 01:01:40,370
S5: and so yeah. So that that was it was fascinating

1309
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,880
S5: to explore somebody who was such an enigma. And so.

1310
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:47,330
S1: So how did you go about trying to fill out

1311
01:01:47,330 --> 01:01:49,310
S1: that character? It sounds like the lines are kind of

1312
01:01:49,310 --> 01:01:51,860
S1: drawn around him based on what we know from the book,

1313
01:01:51,860 --> 01:01:54,080
S1: from what, you know, the role that he played within

1314
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,110
S1: that club, the movie. I think like basically every piece

1315
01:01:57,110 --> 01:02:00,410
S1: of culture about motorcycle clubs after the 50s, it owes

1316
01:02:00,410 --> 01:02:02,720
S1: some of its look and feel to the wild ones.

1317
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,760
S1: And one of the most iconic scenes is sort of

1318
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,460
S1: mentioned and explicitly shown in the movie.

1319
01:02:07,460 --> 01:02:08,450
S5: Yeah. What do you got?

1320
01:02:08,450 --> 01:02:11,810
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, getting to see you and Tom

1321
01:02:11,810 --> 01:02:14,180
S1: Hardy do that in the same 24 hours. Very exciting

1322
01:02:14,180 --> 01:02:17,750
S1: for me. Um, is that is that kind of stuff

1323
01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:19,370
S1: James Dean, is that a reference point or were you

1324
01:02:19,370 --> 01:02:21,290
S1: drawing on something different as well?

1325
01:02:21,890 --> 01:02:25,340
S5: I mean, I obviously I've seen those films. I rewatched

1326
01:02:25,340 --> 01:02:30,440
S5: them when I was making this, uh, just to see

1327
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,310
S5: if anything sparked my imagination, you know, and um, and

1328
01:02:34,310 --> 01:02:37,070
S5: also just to sort of study some of the filmmaking

1329
01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:41,090
S5: of Easy Rider or, you know, The Loveless is another

1330
01:02:41,090 --> 01:02:44,720
S5: one of my favorite films. And seeing Willem Dafoe just

1331
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:46,880
S5: be one of the coolest people ever on a motorcycle. And.

1332
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:47,480
S1: Yeah, yeah.

1333
01:02:47,990 --> 01:02:53,270
S5: I, uh, I so yeah, I watched all that, but

1334
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,270
S5: I felt that for me, it was, it was getting

1335
01:02:56,270 --> 01:03:00,470
S5: together with people who their entire lives is motorcycles. And

1336
01:03:00,620 --> 01:03:03,230
S5: that's all they talk about. It's all they think about,

1337
01:03:03,230 --> 01:03:06,290
S5: and they know them inside and out. And so that's

1338
01:03:06,290 --> 01:03:08,000
S5: that's what I wanted to get in the headspace of.

1339
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,820
S5: I wanted to get real grease under my fingernails, you know,

1340
01:03:10,820 --> 01:03:13,370
S5: and to learn how to take apart a motorcycle and

1341
01:03:13,370 --> 01:03:17,180
S5: feel that it was an extension of me in some way. Um,

1342
01:03:17,180 --> 01:03:19,970
S5: so I was fortunate to all the, all the bikers

1343
01:03:19,970 --> 01:03:21,710
S5: who let me into their world.

1344
01:03:22,250 --> 01:03:24,740
S1: That's fascinating. Did you have much did you have much

1345
01:03:24,740 --> 01:03:27,950
S1: of a relationship with motorcycles prior to getting involved in

1346
01:03:27,950 --> 01:03:28,340
S1: this film?

1347
01:03:28,340 --> 01:03:30,530
S5: I had a bit because my dad rode and my

1348
01:03:30,530 --> 01:03:34,520
S5: grandfather rode, um, but nothing like this.

1349
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,770
S1: Yeah, I'd say my granddad used to ride triumphs in

1350
01:03:37,770 --> 01:03:40,020
S1: the 50s, and when I got old enough, I decided

1351
01:03:40,020 --> 01:03:42,270
S1: I wanted to to do the same thing. Yeah.

1352
01:03:42,420 --> 01:03:45,870
S5: That's when they shifted on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

1353
01:03:45,870 --> 01:03:47,670
S5: They switched it over in the 70s, I think.

1354
01:03:47,670 --> 01:03:50,070
S1: Totally. It was one of the things I'm keen to

1355
01:03:50,070 --> 01:03:51,240
S1: talk to you about the themes of the movie, but

1356
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,400
S1: it was I know this is not necessarily the point,

1357
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:54,840
S1: but at the end of the film, I was just like,

1358
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,360
S1: God damn, did a lot of that look really cool? Like,

1359
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,160
S1: why aren't I in a motorcycle club?

1360
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,460
S5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that was genuinely one of the

1361
01:04:02,460 --> 01:04:04,230
S5: draws of the film for me. I just it was

1362
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:07,020
S5: just so damn cool, you know?

1363
01:04:08,370 --> 01:04:10,620
S1: And did you get to do I know that, like,

1364
01:04:10,620 --> 01:04:13,110
S1: whether it's through insurance or just the way that films

1365
01:04:13,110 --> 01:04:15,720
S1: are made, a lot of things are done on rigs

1366
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,700
S1: and stuff. But did you actually get to get on

1367
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:19,890
S1: a bike and have some fun in the making of

1368
01:04:19,890 --> 01:04:20,490
S1: the film?

1369
01:04:20,490 --> 01:04:26,280
S5: Yeah, yeah. I mean, besides a few close ups, when

1370
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,040
S5: Jody's on the bike, it's all me riding that motorcycle.

1371
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:29,790
S1: Oh, that's awesome.

1372
01:04:29,790 --> 01:04:32,460
S5: Without a helmet on, you know what I mean? It's

1373
01:04:32,460 --> 01:04:35,370
S5: I don't know how we got the film insured, necessarily.

1374
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:36,570
S1: It's kind of a miracle.

1375
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:39,900
S5: But, uh. But. Yeah, that's why I trained so much

1376
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:43,350
S5: before I trained for many months. So that way it was.

1377
01:04:43,350 --> 01:04:44,640
S5: It was real, you know?

1378
01:04:45,690 --> 01:04:48,210
S1: That's awesome. So over the course of the film, we

1379
01:04:48,210 --> 01:04:51,510
S1: kind of track this club. It starts out basically kind

1380
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:53,970
S1: of like a community center for this group of men

1381
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,430
S1: who are missing something. Or maybe they're feeling a bit

1382
01:04:56,430 --> 01:05:00,570
S1: alienated or alone, or they've been rejected by these other institutions.

1383
01:05:00,570 --> 01:05:03,240
S1: Then things get a bit more sinister, as the impacts

1384
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:07,530
S1: of Vietnam as an example, are felt on American society.

1385
01:05:07,530 --> 01:05:10,560
S1: What do you think it is about that period in America,

1386
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:14,190
S1: that transition from the 60s to the 70s, that makes

1387
01:05:14,190 --> 01:05:17,430
S1: it such an interesting frame for storytelling like this?

1388
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:21,270
S5: Well, I think it's that it's it's, you know, it's

1389
01:05:21,270 --> 01:05:26,190
S5: it's that fascinating thing with history how you have, you know,

1390
01:05:26,190 --> 01:05:30,450
S5: you have the chaos of World War Two. And then

1391
01:05:30,450 --> 01:05:35,910
S5: out of that comes this utopian, this, this facade of

1392
01:05:35,910 --> 01:05:42,850
S5: utopian 1950s white picket fence, um, that. That underneath. You know,

1393
01:05:42,850 --> 01:05:47,980
S5: there's still trauma and and relationships that are falling apart

1394
01:05:47,980 --> 01:05:49,960
S5: and all of that. But there you know, it's being

1395
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,980
S5: worn in this sort of Stepford Wives way. And then

1396
01:05:54,280 --> 01:06:00,710
S5: and then the counterculture of the 60s and, um. The

1397
01:06:00,710 --> 01:06:06,080
S5: rebellion against that, you know, is is the pendulum swinging

1398
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,560
S5: in the opposite direction and then how that leads way

1399
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:16,160
S5: to chaos at times and, and destruction and, and like

1400
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:23,150
S5: you say, I mean, you have Vietnam and and all the,

1401
01:06:23,150 --> 01:06:26,090
S5: the horrors of that and the trauma of that time

1402
01:06:26,090 --> 01:06:32,160
S5: and then, uh. And then these soldiers coming back to

1403
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,970
S5: the States and and some of them not being treated well.

1404
01:06:35,970 --> 01:06:39,720
S5: And and the insanity of that time and how tricky

1405
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:45,240
S5: that time was and and the also also the addictions

1406
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:50,400
S5: shifting from alcohol, say, to heroin, you know, and what

1407
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,410
S5: that also does. Um, and uh, and so it's a

1408
01:06:55,410 --> 01:07:01,410
S5: really volatile time, um, and, and so that that sort

1409
01:07:01,410 --> 01:07:05,640
S5: of the chaos of that I think is, uh, is,

1410
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,540
S5: is quite dramatic. So I think, you know, that time period,

1411
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:14,640
S5: the films of that time period, I think, really mirror that.

1412
01:07:15,030 --> 01:07:18,000
S1: Um, I was also struck by, I mean, and I'm

1413
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,700
S1: interested if you if you think that I'm like over

1414
01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:22,770
S1: reading or over interpreting the movie, feel free to push

1415
01:07:22,770 --> 01:07:24,810
S1: back on this. But when I was watching it, I

1416
01:07:24,810 --> 01:07:29,550
S1: felt there was this contemporary social resonance as well. These ideas.

1417
01:07:29,550 --> 01:07:32,580
S1: So much of our political conversation is around the anxieties

1418
01:07:32,580 --> 01:07:36,300
S1: of lonely, frustrated, maybe like angry men, their attempts to

1419
01:07:36,300 --> 01:07:39,690
S1: seek out some sort of catharsis and meaning similar to

1420
01:07:39,690 --> 01:07:42,840
S1: previous periods we've lived through. Do you think the kinds

1421
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:46,050
S1: of characters that we see in the bike Riders, like

1422
01:07:46,050 --> 01:07:48,479
S1: we're still missing something as a society for these kinds

1423
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,940
S1: of people to give them some more meaning?

1424
01:07:52,570 --> 01:07:55,900
S6: You know. I think.

1425
01:07:56,990 --> 01:08:02,840
S5: I think that human nature is. There's a there's a

1426
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:07,880
S5: universal element in human nature. And, um, and so I

1427
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:12,560
S5: think that's why, uh, regardless of time or place, you're

1428
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,980
S5: going to have certain themes of, of the human condition. Um,

1429
01:08:15,980 --> 01:08:19,010
S5: so I suppose that that would be accurate.

1430
01:08:19,820 --> 01:08:21,920
S1: I hadn't really thought about it until I was talking

1431
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:23,870
S1: to you, but we're talking about a movie that is

1432
01:08:23,870 --> 01:08:26,150
S1: like a bit of a period piece. It's kind of

1433
01:08:26,150 --> 01:08:28,400
S1: been what you've done a lot of lately. Like, I mean,

1434
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:31,759
S1: Elvis is a movie set in another period, Masters of

1435
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:34,939
S1: the air, I mean, Dune Part two, obviously. Like, not

1436
01:08:34,939 --> 01:08:36,290
S1: necessarily the 1950s.

1437
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:37,790
S5: I made up for it by going way in the

1438
01:08:37,790 --> 01:08:42,260
S5: future with that one. Just like bring the average down. Yeah.

1439
01:08:42,260 --> 01:08:46,820
S1: It averages out somewhere in like 22,100 or something like that. Yeah. Um,

1440
01:08:46,820 --> 01:08:50,630
S1: are you thinking about are you curious about doing something

1441
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:53,360
S1: that feels more contemporary, or are you happy exploring these

1442
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,670
S1: different times and worlds for the moment? Yeah.

1443
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:59,269
S6: You know, it wasn't it wasn't intentional, really.

1444
01:08:59,270 --> 01:09:03,229
S5: It's just these are the characters and filmmakers and stories

1445
01:09:03,229 --> 01:09:09,140
S5: that were the most compelling, um, at the time. Uh, and, uh,

1446
01:09:09,140 --> 01:09:12,540
S5: but I do. I always want.

1447
01:09:12,540 --> 01:09:12,840
S6: To.

1448
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:18,840
S5: Explore new things and and challenge myself in different ways. And, uh, yeah,

1449
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,210
S5: the next two films that I'm doing are more are

1450
01:09:21,210 --> 01:09:24,730
S5: more modern. So. Yeah.

1451
01:09:24,820 --> 01:09:28,240
S1: Yeah. Exciting. Um, one of my favorite up and coming

1452
01:09:28,270 --> 01:09:30,939
S1: Australian actors has a bit of screen time in this movie.

1453
01:09:30,939 --> 01:09:32,979
S1: Toby Wallace I'm not sure if you guys are actually

1454
01:09:32,979 --> 01:09:36,010
S1: in scenes together, but did you did you get to

1455
01:09:36,010 --> 01:09:37,240
S1: get to know Toby at all?

1456
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,610
S5: Well, yeah, we got to hang out and we rode

1457
01:09:39,610 --> 01:09:44,200
S5: motorcycles together, and, um, I love Toby. I just I

1458
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:49,959
S5: spoke to him. We spoke this morning. Um, but I, uh. Yeah, I, um.

1459
01:09:51,220 --> 01:09:54,009
S5: I Loved Him and Baby Teeth, which I thought was

1460
01:09:54,010 --> 01:09:55,179
S5: incredible and such.

1461
01:09:55,180 --> 01:09:55,750
S1: A good film.

1462
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:57,700
S5: We have a lot of mutual friends, and so I

1463
01:09:57,700 --> 01:10:01,690
S5: was looking forward to meeting him and, and and yeah,

1464
01:10:01,689 --> 01:10:04,120
S5: we don't really have scenes together, I don't think. But

1465
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,060
S5: we we did we got to hang out and, uh,

1466
01:10:07,330 --> 01:10:11,500
S5: I really fond memories of of looking over him. We

1467
01:10:11,979 --> 01:10:15,129
S5: late at night we rode motorcycles over this bridge in

1468
01:10:15,130 --> 01:10:18,400
S5: Cincinnati and, uh, and we just were racing over this

1469
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:20,620
S5: bridge together, and that was that was a good memory

1470
01:10:20,620 --> 01:10:21,220
S5: that I have.

1471
01:10:21,220 --> 01:10:23,530
S1: That's awesome. One of my favorite things about the bike

1472
01:10:23,530 --> 01:10:26,979
S1: riders is like this multi-generational, that guy sort of thing

1473
01:10:26,979 --> 01:10:29,680
S1: going on. You know, Jeff Nichols loves working with Michael Shannon.

1474
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,320
S1: He pops up in this in an awesome role. You

1475
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,290
S1: know someone, you're there, you've got another generation coming through.

1476
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,210
S1: It was really cool to just see all this talent

1477
01:10:37,210 --> 01:10:38,860
S1: on screen at the same time. That's so.

1478
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:39,639
S5: Cool. Yeah.

1479
01:10:40,450 --> 01:10:44,200
S1: Um, in terms of, um, movies, just to question sort

1480
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,080
S1: of a bit sideways to the bike rider specifically, there's

1481
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:49,930
S1: a lot of conversation this year about the state of

1482
01:10:49,930 --> 01:10:51,549
S1: the box office and where things are going. I mean,

1483
01:10:51,550 --> 01:10:55,120
S1: June again is a really big, massive success, but there's

1484
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:57,490
S1: been a couple of films that probably didn't hit the

1485
01:10:57,490 --> 01:11:00,430
S1: way people were expecting. A lot of audiences seem more

1486
01:11:00,430 --> 01:11:04,269
S1: keen to wait for things to hit streaming for whatever reason.

1487
01:11:04,270 --> 01:11:05,710
S1: Is there something you think about, like you were at

1488
01:11:05,710 --> 01:11:09,250
S1: all worried about the trajectory of cinemas? And if audiences

1489
01:11:09,250 --> 01:11:11,050
S1: are going to go and see these things and that

1490
01:11:11,050 --> 01:11:12,100
S1: sort of environment?

1491
01:11:13,810 --> 01:11:17,019
S5: It's something I think about a lot. I was speaking

1492
01:11:17,020 --> 01:11:19,300
S5: about it at dinner last night and just, uh.

1493
01:11:20,130 --> 01:11:20,820
S6: It.

1494
01:11:22,170 --> 01:11:26,340
S5: Yeah, I, I love the experience personally of going to

1495
01:11:26,340 --> 01:11:31,019
S5: the movies. I love it deeply and I, I have

1496
01:11:31,020 --> 01:11:33,330
S5: such a nostalgia of going with my parents as a

1497
01:11:33,330 --> 01:11:36,090
S5: kid and the smell of popcorn and sitting down and

1498
01:11:36,090 --> 01:11:39,810
S5: the lights, the lights going down and communing with strangers

1499
01:11:39,810 --> 01:11:43,710
S5: and immersing yourself in this film. And I also love

1500
01:11:43,710 --> 01:11:47,220
S5: the experience of putting your phone away and actually being

1501
01:11:47,220 --> 01:11:51,930
S5: present for the duration of a film. And, um, and

1502
01:11:51,930 --> 01:11:54,059
S5: so I think there's nothing like that where you don't

1503
01:11:54,060 --> 01:11:58,740
S5: have distractions and you're just, you're allowing yourself to, to

1504
01:11:58,740 --> 01:12:02,280
S5: disappear for a bit into this other world. And, um,

1505
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:06,120
S5: but like you say, it is it is it definitely.

1506
01:12:06,390 --> 01:12:11,740
S5: You notice a difference in, in, uh. And what gets

1507
01:12:11,740 --> 01:12:14,259
S5: people to to actually go out to the theater now.

1508
01:12:14,260 --> 01:12:19,210
S5: And I hope that I hope the more more people well,

1509
01:12:19,210 --> 01:12:22,210
S5: I just hope it stays alive. You know, I really

1510
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,729
S5: I love the experience so much and I know so

1511
01:12:24,729 --> 01:12:28,870
S5: many people do and um, and yeah, so I hope

1512
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:33,920
S5: I hope it really, you know. And like, I don't

1513
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,200
S5: even know what it is. I kind of wanted to

1514
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:37,519
S5: say for a second, like, I hope it has a

1515
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:41,450
S5: resurgence or like something I think people are still for

1516
01:12:41,450 --> 01:12:44,390
S5: the right for certain films. People still are really gone.

1517
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:47,960
S5: I mean, look at Barbie and Oppenheimer and. Absolutely. And

1518
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,139
S5: Dune was that was amazing to see everybody come out

1519
01:12:51,140 --> 01:12:55,310
S5: for that. And but you never know. And uh, and

1520
01:12:55,310 --> 01:13:01,400
S5: so yeah, I hope people are really come out I. Yeah.

1521
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:01,760
S5: What do you.

1522
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,820
S1: Think uh man I agree. I mean Barbie and Oppenheimer,

1523
01:13:04,820 --> 01:13:07,370
S1: it feels like got people excited and then I don't

1524
01:13:07,370 --> 01:13:09,770
S1: know whether it was the combination of the strikes or

1525
01:13:09,770 --> 01:13:12,470
S1: just like, you know, the economy or whatever it is

1526
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:14,180
S1: going on. And a couple of things being shifted out

1527
01:13:14,180 --> 01:13:16,429
S1: of schedule. But I think it would be so sad

1528
01:13:16,430 --> 01:13:19,370
S1: if we didn't have that collective experience to meet. Going

1529
01:13:19,370 --> 01:13:21,229
S1: to the films with one another is great. I mean,

1530
01:13:21,229 --> 01:13:23,450
S1: I think the bike riders, you can watch that at home,

1531
01:13:23,450 --> 01:13:27,230
S1: but watching that, hearing that sound, that's not being distracted,

1532
01:13:27,229 --> 01:13:28,910
S1: I think, like you said, putting your phone away is

1533
01:13:28,910 --> 01:13:31,910
S1: such an important part of what this art form is about. Yeah,

1534
01:13:32,510 --> 01:13:33,019
S1: it's important.

1535
01:13:33,020 --> 01:13:37,099
S5: Part of being human as well. It's like there's something

1536
01:13:37,100 --> 01:13:40,639
S5: in I always think about because there's always these questions of,

1537
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:45,380
S5: of like is what's what's the sort of meaning behind,

1538
01:13:45,380 --> 01:13:47,510
S5: you know, how you spend your time and whatnot. And

1539
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:49,970
S5: I think of how, you know, there's something in the

1540
01:13:49,970 --> 01:13:52,700
S5: human condition where we've been telling stories around campfire since

1541
01:13:52,700 --> 01:13:55,700
S5: the dawn of time. And, uh, and so to have

1542
01:13:55,700 --> 01:13:58,550
S5: that experience where you're not just constantly being distracted by

1543
01:13:58,550 --> 01:14:00,830
S5: a seven second video and going on to the next

1544
01:14:00,830 --> 01:14:04,880
S5: thing and actually, you know, taking in a story, I

1545
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:08,689
S5: think is, is something that speaks to the soul in

1546
01:14:08,689 --> 01:14:09,110
S5: some way.

1547
01:14:09,830 --> 01:14:11,690
S1: Uh, Austin, thank you so much for your time. That's

1548
01:14:11,689 --> 01:14:13,790
S1: a perfect note to end on. Thank you. Appreciate it man.

1549
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,170
S5: Thank you for your time.

1550
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,140
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.

1551
01:14:24,170 --> 01:14:26,690
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1552
01:14:26,689 --> 01:14:29,389
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1553
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:32,059
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode

1554
01:14:32,060 --> 01:14:35,450
S1: with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!