1 00:00:07,860 --> 00:00:10,770 S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a 2 00:00:10,770 --> 00:00:13,410 S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 3 00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:15,420 S1: But we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:19,500 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell. The 5 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:23,280 S1: wonderful Malcolm Bree is gallivanting around Europe for the next 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,410 S1: few weeks. How are you feeling, Thomas? You think we 7 00:00:25,410 --> 00:00:27,240 S1: can hold this one down without Mel? 8 00:00:27,270 --> 00:00:29,250 S2: Yeah. Look, I think, I mean, this is kind of 9 00:00:29,250 --> 00:00:32,730 S2: what we've always been aiming towards, really just. Just sitting 10 00:00:32,729 --> 00:00:35,100 S2: in an echo chamber together, congratulating one another. 11 00:00:36,030 --> 00:00:38,640 S1: How great we are, how smart we are, how good 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,580 S1: it is just to have the fellas talk. Correct. Um, 13 00:00:41,580 --> 00:00:42,930 S1: now we're going to we're going to do our best. 14 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:45,870 S1: But obviously we miss Mel. We've got a really, really 15 00:00:45,870 --> 00:00:49,890 S1: big episode today. We're talking about Beyonce's new album, a 16 00:00:49,890 --> 00:00:54,270 S1: really great new show on Netflix, and the brand spanking 17 00:00:54,270 --> 00:00:58,260 S1: new movie from Dev Patel, which is out in cinemas 18 00:00:58,260 --> 00:01:01,920 S1: this week on Thursday. Plus, we have an interview with 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,680 S1: dev himself, so make sure to stick around for that. 20 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,350 S1: We'll play that at the end of the episode, but 21 00:01:07,350 --> 00:01:10,619 S1: first up, some news I broke right after we finished 22 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:13,890 S1: recording last week's podcast episode. In fact, I think the 23 00:01:13,890 --> 00:01:16,560 S1: smash in the Age, our outlets were the ones who 24 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,070 S1: first broke the news. Splendour in the grass is cancelled 25 00:01:20,069 --> 00:01:23,429 S1: for 2024, and there is a big question mark over 26 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:27,149 S1: whether it will return at all. The reaction to this 27 00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:31,260 S1: news was pretty massive. Obviously it hits a lot of artists, 28 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:34,200 S1: very hard artists who rely on festivals like that to 29 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,110 S1: make an income and promote themselves. The news came at 30 00:01:37,110 --> 00:01:39,810 S1: a time when the festival scene in Australia is in 31 00:01:39,810 --> 00:01:43,169 S1: a bit of strife. Generally. Groovin the Moo cancelled this year, 32 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:45,450 S1: falls was cancelled last year, but it feels like this 33 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:48,059 S1: splendid news hit hot. Like a lot of people who 34 00:01:48,060 --> 00:01:51,780 S1: aren't in the industry are. So posting and discussing this, 35 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:54,360 S1: why do you reckon that was Thomas? Like just Australians 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,110 S1: have a lot of memories of of splendour over the years. 37 00:01:58,110 --> 00:02:00,000 S2: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of when Big Day 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,510 S2: Out went and that felt like a moment, I guess. Yeah. 39 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:06,240 S2: Splendour has always been one of the more like accessible 40 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,609 S2: festivals that even if you're not a festival head, you 41 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:10,530 S2: maybe have been to a few times. So the fact 42 00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:14,279 S2: that splendour isn't going ahead sends a pretty wide message 43 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,800 S2: to people who otherwise might not care if, like Meredith 44 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,130 S2: isn't happening, that wouldn't land on their radar. But splendour 45 00:02:20,130 --> 00:02:25,950 S2: being cancelled means like something is obviously broken. Um, yeah, 46 00:02:25,950 --> 00:02:29,730 S2: it's a really weird feeling, like in my heyday, which 47 00:02:29,730 --> 00:02:31,440 S2: I mean, look, you can argue when that may have been, 48 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,480 S2: but when in my, in my 20s, when I would 49 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,019 S2: go to splendour, it wouldn't matter who was on the bill, 50 00:02:37,139 --> 00:02:40,350 S2: it wouldn't matter who the headliners were. It was just 51 00:02:40,350 --> 00:02:43,410 S2: about going. And you would have that rather than like, 52 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:45,510 S2: oh my God, are the tickets going to sell out? 53 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:47,730 S2: But like, you know, hoping that they would, you would, 54 00:02:47,820 --> 00:02:50,730 S2: you would be like at the computer waiting as, as 55 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:53,100 S2: we saw with like Taylor Swift recently. That was the 56 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,200 S2: same for splendour back then. Like you would, you would 57 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,960 S2: be like organising with your friends to make sure everyone 58 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,520 S2: was trying to get tickets so you didn't miss out. 59 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,400 S2: And that's like going back, let's say ten years. And 60 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,550 S2: now it's the complete opposite where like, the festival is 61 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:08,520 S2: so broken that they can't sell enough tickets and now 62 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,830 S2: it's cancelled. And it's just like, that shift has been 63 00:03:10,830 --> 00:03:12,029 S2: so rapid. Yeah. 64 00:03:12,030 --> 00:03:14,310 S1: It's so interesting that memory of splendour I have is 65 00:03:14,310 --> 00:03:16,290 S1: exactly the same. It was like triple J would announce 66 00:03:16,290 --> 00:03:19,109 S1: the lineup on the breakfast show and everyone would race 67 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:21,660 S1: to buy tickets. Splendour was the one where you really 68 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:23,339 S1: had to do it, otherwise you would miss out. Demand 69 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:27,600 S1: was just so high. I, I feel like earlier this 70 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,150 S1: year on the show, when we were talking about Taylor Swift, 71 00:03:30,150 --> 00:03:34,110 S1: we talked a bit about this dichotomy that was emerging. 72 00:03:34,260 --> 00:03:36,990 S1: This is narrative that there's a cost of living crisis 73 00:03:36,990 --> 00:03:40,080 S1: that is impacting younger people. And like, obviously that is true. 74 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,990 S1: Wages are not going up very fast. Rent is going 75 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:45,330 S1: up very fast. Cost of, you know, food and all 76 00:03:45,330 --> 00:03:47,370 S1: those sorts of staples is going up very fast. So 77 00:03:47,370 --> 00:03:50,339 S1: I'm not dismissing the existence of a cost of living 78 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:53,970 S1: issue in Australia, obviously. But there is evidence that lots 79 00:03:53,970 --> 00:03:56,400 S1: of Australians, including young Australians, are willing to fork out 80 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,820 S1: lots and lots of money to see shows like Taylor Swift, 81 00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:03,690 S1: to see shows like Fred again. Scissor is coming to Australia, 82 00:04:03,690 --> 00:04:07,200 S1: she's sold out three arenas in Sydney and Melbourne, so 83 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,310 S1: that is happening at the same time, the festival sector 84 00:04:11,310 --> 00:04:14,460 S1: is really, really struggling and maybe those two things are related. 85 00:04:14,460 --> 00:04:16,980 S1: Maybe people are saying, well, if I'm going to spend money, 86 00:04:16,980 --> 00:04:19,590 S1: I'm going to spend it on this giant act and 87 00:04:19,589 --> 00:04:23,310 S1: I don't want to go to the music festival. But 88 00:04:23,310 --> 00:04:25,410 S1: I think that raises is, I think, a real serious 89 00:04:25,410 --> 00:04:28,020 S1: issue for the Australian music scene is how do you 90 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:31,200 S1: get some of that money back into the domestic sector 91 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,260 S1: as well? I feel like there's probably a lot going 92 00:04:34,260 --> 00:04:38,070 S1: on with the collapse of splendid. This year is, as 93 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:41,969 S1: you said, the idea of buying tickets urgently has just 94 00:04:41,970 --> 00:04:45,000 S1: not been part of that festival's DNA since Covid. That 95 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,690 S1: was the 2022 rainy, flooded splendour that I was at, 96 00:04:48,690 --> 00:04:51,060 S1: I was reporting from. I mean, people just had a 97 00:04:51,060 --> 00:04:53,250 S1: really bad experience there, and I know that, splendour says 98 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:56,070 S1: we couldn't have predicted for the weather. A reported this 99 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:58,500 S1: at the time, the local council said we warned them 100 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:01,349 S1: of the risks of this, uh, the fact that there 101 00:05:01,350 --> 00:05:03,450 S1: weren't enough buses to get people home. That was an 102 00:05:03,450 --> 00:05:06,299 S1: experience that happened last year at splendour as well. So 103 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:09,409 S1: it seems like a lot of. People just didn't have 104 00:05:09,410 --> 00:05:12,950 S1: a good time at these festivals. And like you were saying, 105 00:05:12,950 --> 00:05:15,590 S1: the festival experience wasn't just about the headliners. I know 106 00:05:15,589 --> 00:05:18,109 S1: there's been this conversation around, oh, the lineup didn't hit 107 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:21,020 S1: this year. We would go to the festival not caring 108 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:22,429 S1: about who was in the lineup because we knew there'd 109 00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:24,919 S1: be good acts. We discover some new acts, we'd have 110 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,770 S1: a fun time with our friends. But if you're having 111 00:05:27,770 --> 00:05:29,570 S1: a bad time with your friends and the lineup is 112 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:31,760 S1: not great, and you've got a bit of a cost 113 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,560 S1: of living issue, and you spend a bunch of money 114 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,799 S1: to see Fred again three times in Sydney, which some 115 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,460 S1: of our friends did. Uh, not to name names. Um, 116 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:46,040 S1: you know, you might not be as interested in that festival. Yeah, I, 117 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,589 S1: I do, I do wonder how much of this is 118 00:05:48,589 --> 00:05:51,020 S1: about the meta element of people not wanting to spend 119 00:05:51,020 --> 00:05:55,070 S1: money on live music versus specific things happening at splendour. 120 00:05:55,070 --> 00:05:56,780 S1: That made it not an appealing offer this year. 121 00:05:56,779 --> 00:05:58,520 S2: But I also think there's something to be said. And 122 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,180 S2: I had this conversation with a group of millennial friends 123 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:03,980 S2: of mine. I think there's something to be said about, 124 00:06:03,980 --> 00:06:08,660 S2: like the generational change and the cohort that makes up, 125 00:06:08,660 --> 00:06:13,580 S2: I guess, like the lion's share of the festival going audience. So, like, 126 00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:16,460 S2: I do think there are some key things that have 127 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:20,930 S2: happened that will probably feed into the festival situation. So 128 00:06:20,930 --> 00:06:23,479 S2: like firstly, I feel like, you know, you see it 129 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,070 S2: with the Taylor thing. It's a good example and a 130 00:06:25,070 --> 00:06:28,880 S2: recent example. I feel like Gen Z, especially like their 131 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,279 S2: style of maybe music fandom is much more designed to 132 00:06:34,310 --> 00:06:38,870 S2: be like obsessive over a single act rather than like 133 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,560 S2: be into a festival for its like vibe or the 134 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,110 S2: scene or anything like that. And you know, the festivals 135 00:06:45,110 --> 00:06:48,169 S2: don't typically like, Taylor would never play a festival, but 136 00:06:48,170 --> 00:06:50,180 S2: I feel like the style of that, like the way 137 00:06:50,180 --> 00:06:53,510 S2: that they fandom like, has kind of made it harder 138 00:06:53,510 --> 00:06:55,340 S2: to get them to go to things like that. I 139 00:06:55,339 --> 00:06:57,350 S2: also do think, and this is again, like, this may 140 00:06:57,350 --> 00:06:59,330 S2: sound absolutely crazy, and this was just like an anecdotal 141 00:06:59,330 --> 00:07:01,880 S2: chat with my dumb friends who, you know, we've spoken 142 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,169 S2: about a lot on this podcast. What else. 143 00:07:03,170 --> 00:07:05,299 S1: Do we have if not anecdotal chat without more on but. 144 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:08,480 S2: Like, okay, we all know that Gen Z are like 145 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,020 S2: doing less drugs and having less sex and taking less risks. 146 00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:16,160 S2: There are safer, more like, you know, digitally native generation 147 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,920 S2: who like, you know, I can happily sit here, admit 148 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,680 S2: when I would go to splendour and stuff. Much of 149 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,760 S2: the chat beforehand was like about getting, you know, drugs in, 150 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,490 S2: getting alcohol in, like, how do we go about, like 151 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:31,550 S2: circumnavigating the security, like people were going for this, like 152 00:07:31,550 --> 00:07:33,650 S2: wild three day experience that was going to be like 153 00:07:33,650 --> 00:07:36,320 S2: pretty loose. And I think we can all accept like 154 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,960 S2: and the research shows that Gen Z aren't as into 155 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,330 S2: that kind of time. And I think that is a 156 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:44,090 S2: big part of why people go to festivals. And that 157 00:07:44,090 --> 00:07:47,240 S2: has changed. And that probably, maybe is trickling into why 158 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:49,760 S2: festivals are now struggling a little bit. I don't know, 159 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:50,060 S2: I know, I. 160 00:07:50,060 --> 00:07:51,470 S1: Think I think all of that makes a lot of sense. 161 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:55,070 S1: I mean, Fred again headlined laneway last year and that 162 00:07:55,070 --> 00:07:57,830 S1: brought a lot of younger people to that festival. Fred, again, like, 163 00:07:57,830 --> 00:07:59,120 S1: I don't need to be on the bill for a festival. 164 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,560 S1: I can do my own show and make all that 165 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,740 S1: money myself. And so you have festivals like, well, okay, 166 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:06,770 S1: all these big artists who would normally draw younger audiences 167 00:08:06,770 --> 00:08:09,290 S1: to us aren't going to work with us. So that's 168 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:11,239 S1: an issue. I think there's probably something to what you're 169 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,630 S1: saying as well about the lifestyle component. These Taylor Swift 170 00:08:14,630 --> 00:08:18,430 S1: and Fred again shows. The. I don't know if wholesome 171 00:08:18,430 --> 00:08:21,340 S1: is the exact right word for it, but there is 172 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:26,950 S1: something very like flat about the experience there. And I 173 00:08:26,950 --> 00:08:28,960 S1: had a great time at the Tales of Show. I 174 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,760 S1: didn't go to the Fred Again show, but they're not 175 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,150 S1: like raucous Let's Get Fucked Up and Potty and even 176 00:08:34,150 --> 00:08:36,970 S1: Fred again, who plays house and dance music, which has 177 00:08:36,970 --> 00:08:40,390 S1: such a history of like, drugs and dancing and the 178 00:08:40,390 --> 00:08:42,820 S1: the club experience and what that is all about, the 179 00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:45,099 S1: environment that creates none of the stuff I saw from 180 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:47,980 S1: that was reminiscent of those, you know, the kind of 181 00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:50,950 S1: club days we had. It seemed very, I don't want 182 00:08:50,950 --> 00:08:54,460 S1: to say like asexual is maybe like two direct a term, 183 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:57,310 S1: but it wasn't like the sweaty party vibe. Right. And 184 00:08:57,309 --> 00:08:59,380 S1: and if that's what younger people want, more power to them. 185 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:01,750 S1: But that's not really what a festival like splendour offers. 186 00:09:01,750 --> 00:09:05,679 S1: So yeah, maybe the destination festival you camp and you're 187 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,870 S1: sweaty and you're not showered, but you don't mind because 188 00:09:07,870 --> 00:09:10,180 S1: you're on pingers and you're drunk for three days. Maybe 189 00:09:10,179 --> 00:09:12,340 S1: that's just on its way out. And what might be 190 00:09:12,340 --> 00:09:14,290 S1: left of the the one day things in the city 191 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:18,069 S1: like like laneway, for example, that could be where this goes. Yeah. 192 00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:20,650 S2: I mean, and it wouldn't really wouldn't surprise me. Like, 193 00:09:20,650 --> 00:09:22,780 S2: I don't doubt that splendour will take a couple of 194 00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:25,900 S2: years off and then like probably come back and see 195 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,570 S2: like if it can revive itself. But I, I also 196 00:09:28,570 --> 00:09:30,069 S2: don't know if I hold out a bunch of hope 197 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:32,380 S2: that splendour will ever recapture its glory days, like maybe 198 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:35,109 S2: something else will come in its place that is more 199 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:38,770 S2: tailored to the audience, that will most likely like travel 200 00:09:38,770 --> 00:09:42,400 S2: to it and kind of revive it. But I think, yeah, sadly, 201 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,650 S2: the glory days of splendour in the past. 202 00:09:44,650 --> 00:09:47,200 S1: Yeah, there's a government inquiry that's been announced off the 203 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,080 S1: back of the splendour cancellation, looking into live music and 204 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,210 S1: the health of the festival sector. That's a good idea. 205 00:09:52,210 --> 00:09:53,860 S1: I hope a lot of people get involved in it. 206 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:57,340 S1: I hope that that leads to some broad conversations about 207 00:09:57,340 --> 00:10:00,640 S1: the health of Australian music, not just an opportunity to 208 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,850 S1: pump millions of dollars of government funding into these giant companies. 209 00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:06,220 S1: I mean, look, splendour is a big deal in Australia. 210 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:08,590 S1: The the company that runs it is now majority owned 211 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:11,979 S1: by Live Nation, which is, you know, also in turn 212 00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:15,880 S1: part owned by the Saudi Arabian Investment Fund. Like I 213 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,210 S1: don't think those companies need government money. I think if 214 00:10:19,210 --> 00:10:22,270 S1: the government is looking at policies and measures and funding, 215 00:10:22,270 --> 00:10:25,059 S1: let's look at how do young people who want to 216 00:10:25,059 --> 00:10:27,100 S1: make music, how do they do that? How do they 217 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:29,470 S1: afford to do that? Where do they gig if there 218 00:10:29,470 --> 00:10:31,990 S1: are so few small venues left, how do they have 219 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:34,689 S1: a sustainable career path to cut a record and get 220 00:10:34,690 --> 00:10:39,339 S1: played in Australia when Spotify and YouTube and the algorithms 221 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:42,550 S1: that are designed overseas to not necessarily support local acts 222 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:46,390 S1: determine how the landscape looks. So I hope that review 223 00:10:46,390 --> 00:10:49,120 S1: encompasses all of that stuff, because I don't think this 224 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,900 S1: is just about one festival not having enough money to 225 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:56,170 S1: pull things off. So I think we'll probably keep reporting 226 00:10:56,170 --> 00:10:57,640 S1: on that over the next few weeks and months, because 227 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,119 S1: it's pretty fundamental to the future of music in Australia. 228 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,500 S1: But one artist, Thomas, who I think would not struggle 229 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:08,829 S1: to sell tickets in Australia if she ever came back here, 230 00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:12,820 S1: is Beyonce. And last Friday, also, just after we finished 231 00:11:12,910 --> 00:11:17,680 S1: recording our episode, she released her highly, highly anticipated album 232 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,040 S1: Cowboy Carter. This is act two of what she's promised 233 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,280 S1: will be a three part project. The first was Renaissance 234 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,270 S1: in 2022, which is a horse and dance themed album. Cowboy, 235 00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:32,469 S1: as the name suggests, is largely, but definitely not explicitly 236 00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:35,530 S1: a country album. She teased it during the Super Bowl 237 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:38,530 S1: with two tracks, Texas Hold'em and 16 carriages. 238 00:11:39,250 --> 00:11:44,949 S3: 16 carriages driving away when I watch them ride with 239 00:11:44,950 --> 00:11:50,500 S3: my dreams, away to the summer sunset on a holy night. 240 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:55,569 S3: On a long black road. All the tears I fight 16. 241 00:11:58,570 --> 00:12:05,210 UU: Once they. Dreams away to the summer sunset. Holy Mother. 242 00:12:08,130 --> 00:12:11,849 S1: This album is big, it's sprawling, it's 27 tracks. There 243 00:12:11,850 --> 00:12:14,189 S1: is a lot of country, but there's a lot of like, 244 00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:16,860 S1: you know, just kind of generic adult contemporary rock, vibe 245 00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:20,550 S1: says some R&B and hip hop as well. I'm really 246 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:23,910 S1: enjoying it, both for its country flair, but also I 247 00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:25,980 S1: think the many different things she is trying on it 248 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:28,020 S1: and how I think generally they work and look, not 249 00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:30,780 S1: every single track is amazing, but with a 27 track 250 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:33,900 S1: album that's to be expected. I also think, having listened 251 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:37,050 S1: to it now for just under a week and listening 252 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,349 S1: to it many, many, many times a day, I think 253 00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:44,910 S1: there are some pretty dense thematic themes that take a 254 00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:47,100 S1: little while to settle that they might not appear on 255 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,189 S1: the surface in the early reviews, which have largely been positive. 256 00:12:50,190 --> 00:12:51,840 S1: I don't think I've had the time yet to dig 257 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,870 S1: into what she's really trying to say on this album 258 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:57,959 S1: about where the music industry is right now, where America 259 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,410 S1: is right now. It's a lot to do on an 260 00:13:01,410 --> 00:13:04,470 S1: album that is also just trying to be commercially successful, 261 00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:06,570 S1: and I think it obviously will be. I went to 262 00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:09,540 S1: a pub on Monday night, The Railway Hotel in Fitzroy North, 263 00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:12,540 S1: and they'll just blasting the whole album on, on repeat, 264 00:13:12,540 --> 00:13:15,599 S1: which is, I guess, an indication that the streets are 265 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,850 S1: into this, their vibe in it. What do you think, Thomas? 266 00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:19,200 S1: How are you finding Cowboy Carter? 267 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,929 S2: Yeah, I like on first listen, I really liked it 268 00:13:21,929 --> 00:13:25,050 S2: and I kind of got what everyone was saying. I 269 00:13:25,050 --> 00:13:29,070 S2: actually have a reverse experience, especially to what I would 270 00:13:29,070 --> 00:13:30,990 S2: normally have in that the more I listen to it, 271 00:13:30,990 --> 00:13:34,200 S2: the less I still really like it, but the less 272 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,020 S2: blown away I am and are interesting. 273 00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:39,179 S1: Excited to have a bit of a debate with you 274 00:13:39,179 --> 00:13:39,990 S1: perhaps on this one. 275 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:42,300 S2: Yeah, I just think it's really funny. You know, like 276 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,430 S2: there's so much chat about, I mean, there's so much 277 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:47,160 S2: on the album itself about the concept of genre, and 278 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,880 S2: we're in the midst of a country kind of like uprising. And, 279 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,949 S2: you know, people are trying to figure out is this country. 280 00:13:52,950 --> 00:13:56,160 S2: And Beyoncé, in the kind of announcement on Instagram, was like, 281 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,830 S2: this is not a country album, it's a Beyonce album. 282 00:13:58,980 --> 00:14:03,510 S2: And like, that couldn't really sum it up better for me. Like, 283 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:07,980 S2: it really is just a Beyonce album and it's good 284 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:09,750 S2: and some of the songs are amazing and some of 285 00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:12,689 S2: them are kind of middling and and I really enjoyed 286 00:14:12,690 --> 00:14:16,500 S2: listening to it, but I guess I think I've been 287 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,840 S2: like listening to it and listening to it and like 288 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,050 S2: reading the kind of dialogue that's already kicked off, like. 289 00:14:22,050 --> 00:14:24,780 S2: And we're talking like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, The 290 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:28,290 S2: New York Times. Everyone's written think pieces, and I just, 291 00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:30,990 S2: I feel a little bit why do I do this 292 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:34,220 S2: to myself? I feel a little bit like. I just 293 00:14:34,220 --> 00:14:39,360 S2: don't know if I quite. Understand that this album specifically 294 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,470 S2: warrants that level of like discourse and debate. I think 295 00:14:43,470 --> 00:14:46,290 S2: it's a good album, but I feel like maybe we've 296 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:50,040 S2: slipped into that era where like, because it's a Beyonce album, 297 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,880 S2: we have to like project upon it. All of this 298 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,140 S2: like intense meaning and, and make it feel maybe more 299 00:14:58,140 --> 00:15:02,340 S2: than what it is. And, and the other thing I fear, um, 300 00:15:02,340 --> 00:15:04,890 S2: as I did when I, you know, like maybe criticized 301 00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:08,670 S2: Taylor Swift. I fear that when you say it to people, um, 302 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:11,700 S2: they're just like, because there's such Beyonce stands out there, 303 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,090 S2: you just instantly get like written off, rounding off all 304 00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:17,610 S2: of that by saying, I actually really like the album. Uh, 305 00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:19,650 S2: but yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with it now. 306 00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:22,140 S2: Maybe I'm talking like five days. In listening to it. 307 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:23,700 S2: 2 to 3 times a day is. 308 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:25,650 S1: A lot of things there to unpack, I think. I 309 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:30,600 S1: think since since she released her self-titled record, Beyonce albums 310 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,530 S1: are impossible to separate out from the discourse that surrounds them. 311 00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:37,140 S1: And I think that's gotten more and more intense for 312 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:39,660 S1: a bunch of reasons. I think, you know, Beyoncé dropped 313 00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:41,820 S1: out of nowhere and obviously people were just like, what 314 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:44,160 S1: is she doing? This is so different. This is so interesting. 315 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,280 S1: There's themes there about like feminism and being a woman 316 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,770 S1: and black sexuality and all these sorts of things that 317 00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:53,280 S1: warrant interrogation. And then obviously, lemonade is just this big, 318 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,390 S1: meaty thing about her life and her family and, you know, 319 00:15:57,390 --> 00:15:59,700 S1: her the affair that Jay-Z had, all these sorts of 320 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:04,350 S1: things that, again, warrant enormous amounts of, you know, discourse, interrogation. 321 00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:07,500 S1: Then there's the homecoming Liv stuff, which is the same thing. 322 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:11,010 S1: It's like this big statement as Beyonce, as an artist 323 00:16:11,010 --> 00:16:13,530 S1: sort of using these motifs and reclaiming them. And then 324 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:16,980 S1: we get Renaissance. So I understand what you're saying, that 325 00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:19,470 S1: it can be a little bit exhausting, that when a 326 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:23,130 S1: project like this lands, it can be hard, even within 327 00:16:23,130 --> 00:16:25,770 S1: the first few days, to just live with it and 328 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:28,890 S1: not to be bombarded with takes about like, what does 329 00:16:28,890 --> 00:16:30,810 S1: it mean? What are all the Easter eggs? What's Beyoncé 330 00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:32,700 S1: trying to say? This song is actually not good. This 331 00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,550 S1: song is actually really good. And I think partly that's 332 00:16:35,550 --> 00:16:37,920 S1: due with Beyonce, but it's also partly to do with 333 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,010 S1: the way that media works. Digital media works in particular, 334 00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:44,340 S1: where there are so few artists left that everyone knows 335 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:46,890 S1: and cares about. So when Taylor Swift or Beyoncé drop 336 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:49,229 S1: an album, everyone's like, let's go to town and write 337 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:52,410 S1: 20 stories because this will get the traffic hits. So 338 00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:55,110 S1: I totally feel you on that front. And I've tried 339 00:16:55,110 --> 00:17:00,420 S1: really hard to separate my thoughts from what I'm reading 340 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:03,690 S1: and seeing, because within 24, 48 hours you've got people saying, 341 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:06,240 S1: this is amazing, and then people saying, well, everyone's only 342 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,250 S1: saying it's amazing because it's Beyonce, and actually it's not 343 00:17:08,250 --> 00:17:10,109 S1: really that good. And I'm like, none of these takes 344 00:17:10,109 --> 00:17:13,500 S1: feel really solid to me, having been done in reaction 345 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:17,100 S1: to the album so quickly, but obviously, yeah. How do 346 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:19,350 S1: you talk about an album without talking about the conversation 347 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:22,740 S1: around it? So maybe like we we can come back 348 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:24,840 S1: to some of those questions, we can talk a bit 349 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,410 S1: about musically what works or doesn't work for us on 350 00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:32,430 S1: the album. One of the things that I, I think 351 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:35,939 S1: benefited from, from sealing myself off from all the takes 352 00:17:35,940 --> 00:17:38,490 S1: on social media and even in the mainstream sites, was 353 00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:40,590 S1: what I think is this sort of understanding of some 354 00:17:40,590 --> 00:17:43,710 S1: of the the metaphors and the bigger ideas that she's 355 00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:46,320 S1: trying to land. Right. So we talked on her episode 356 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,950 S1: about country music, but the racialized history of the genre, 357 00:17:49,950 --> 00:17:52,350 S1: and that kind of is a nice little pretext to 358 00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:54,570 S1: the conversation I think we're going to have about this album. 359 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:57,990 S1: Beyonce said herself very directly that her experience writing a 360 00:17:57,990 --> 00:18:01,800 S1: country song on lemonade back in 2016, Daddy Lessons, left 361 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,750 S1: her feeling very unwelcome. 362 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:10,710 UU: Came into this world daddy's little girl. But daddy made 363 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:17,300 UU: a soldier, right? I'm. And that ain't made me dance. 364 00:18:17,630 --> 00:18:23,580 UU: Daddy held my hand. But daddy, like there's always. This team. 365 00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:29,129 S1: She was criticized by a bunch of high profile country 366 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:32,520 S1: artists for performing at the Country Music Awards along with 367 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,669 S1: the chicks, and this album is, at least in part, 368 00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:40,350 S1: a reaction to that experience. On the opening track, American Requiem, 369 00:18:40,350 --> 00:18:41,790 S1: she says that pretty explicitly. 370 00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:47,570 UU: Louisiana. And the rejection claims that I wasn't conjuring up. 371 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:55,030 UU: Said I wouldn't saddle up one. If that ain't country, 372 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,469 UU: tell me what is in my bare feet. 373 00:18:59,590 --> 00:19:04,120 S1: She sings how she was criticized for being too country then, 374 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,629 S1: not country enough, and sort of foreshadows that this album 375 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:10,000 S1: is going to engage with all of those ideas. She also, 376 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,629 S1: which I think is really smart, acknowledges the discourse around, 377 00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:15,610 S1: as she says, there's a lot of chatter happening, like 378 00:19:15,609 --> 00:19:18,700 S1: she knows that a Beyonce album is going to be 379 00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:23,139 S1: picked apart and dissected, and then she pretty quickly dismisses 380 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:25,210 S1: what critics might say, which is also a very funny 381 00:19:25,210 --> 00:19:27,189 S1: Beyonce thing to do is to say, I'm kind of 382 00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:29,800 S1: making this album because of the reaction I got in 383 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,109 S1: the past. But also, I don't really care about critics 384 00:19:32,109 --> 00:19:33,760 S1: at all. Like, you Come at Me, it's not going 385 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,210 S1: to impact me, which is obviously not really the case. 386 00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:40,240 S1: I think the other thing that American Requiem, the opening track, does, 387 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,760 S1: which I think is really smart and this is really 388 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,200 S1: only come to me in the last few days, there's 389 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,560 S1: these two motifs that run throughout the album. This idea 390 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,080 S1: of the the house, the pretty house that she says 391 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,140 S1: in American Requiem that they never settled. And we come 392 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:54,609 S1: back to the idea of the house at the very 393 00:19:54,609 --> 00:19:57,490 S1: end of the album, where it's called crumbling, and the 394 00:19:57,490 --> 00:19:59,560 S1: statues that are in it are not as beautiful as 395 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,470 S1: they seem. The other idea running throughout it, this metaphor 396 00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:04,689 S1: of the father and the daughter, which I think is 397 00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:09,250 S1: both a literal reflection on her relationship with her father. 398 00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:12,550 S1: But I feel like both of these things also feel 399 00:20:12,550 --> 00:20:16,000 S1: like they're a bit of a comment on America and 400 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,930 S1: the history of the music industry as well. Like, these 401 00:20:19,930 --> 00:20:24,010 S1: are both institutions or houses that were built on the 402 00:20:24,010 --> 00:20:27,310 S1: labor and exploitation of black people. Slavery is the clearest 403 00:20:27,310 --> 00:20:29,949 S1: example of that. But within music, hard to think of 404 00:20:29,950 --> 00:20:33,460 S1: a genre from jazz to rock to country, soul, disco, R&B, 405 00:20:33,460 --> 00:20:36,159 S1: hip hop that doesn't have black roots yet. Black people 406 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,940 S1: have never felt like they belong in either of these institutions. 407 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:43,359 S1: The houses that that are pretty. But I built on 408 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,090 S1: that labor, but they don't really belong in. And maybe 409 00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:50,890 S1: now they're starting to be exposed as vulnerable and and crumbling. 410 00:20:50,890 --> 00:20:53,770 S1: And I think throughout the album, she's trying to remind 411 00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:57,220 S1: us of the long influence black artists have had on country, 412 00:20:57,220 --> 00:21:00,070 S1: similar things she did with Renaissance and the history of 413 00:21:00,070 --> 00:21:03,850 S1: black influence on house and dance. For example, in this 414 00:21:03,850 --> 00:21:06,760 S1: album she gets Linda martell, who's the Black Country singer 415 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,129 S1: who had the first ever charting country hit by a 416 00:21:09,130 --> 00:21:11,470 S1: black woman to introduce a couple of tracks. 417 00:21:13,450 --> 00:21:17,139 S4: Genres are a funny little concept, aren't they? 418 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,600 S5: Yes they are. That being. 419 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:20,320 S6: Said, Virgos. 420 00:21:21,490 --> 00:21:26,290 S4: In theory they have a simple definition that's easy to understand, 421 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:30,430 S4: but in practice, well, some may feel confined. 422 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:34,520 S6: Not as bad as mine. 423 00:21:35,090 --> 00:21:37,280 S1: She's got young black women who are trying to establish 424 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,030 S1: their country careers singing on the Beatles cover. She does Blackbird. 425 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:44,600 S1: She also takes on one of the most famous country 426 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,320 S1: songs of all time, Dolly Parton's Jolene, and reworks it. 427 00:21:48,530 --> 00:21:50,990 S3: Jolene. Jolene. 428 00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:55,980 UU: Jolene. Jolene. I'm warning you. 429 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:58,710 S3: Don't come for my man. 430 00:22:01,050 --> 00:22:02,340 UU: You don't mean. 431 00:22:02,340 --> 00:22:03,359 S3: Jolene. 432 00:22:03,540 --> 00:22:10,260 UU: Jolene. Jolene. Don't take the chance because you think you can. 433 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,040 S1: And as a whole thing, I think, to say about that, 434 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,419 S1: because that seems to have been a bit of a 435 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:18,720 S1: lightning rod. But before we unpack the Jolene stuff, how 436 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,379 S1: do you feel about Beyonce directly? I guess engaging with 437 00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:26,070 S1: this idea of her doing country and what that means 438 00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:27,990 S1: is a black woman of her stature. 439 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:29,670 S2: Yeah, like I think it makes a lot of sense 440 00:22:29,670 --> 00:22:32,429 S2: and and like we said before, you know, there has 441 00:22:32,430 --> 00:22:35,159 S2: been so much like when you talk to people and ask, 442 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,830 S2: like what they think about this album. Pretty much the 443 00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:39,840 S2: first comment lots of people make to me anyway, or 444 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,060 S2: have made to me is, oh, it's not really like 445 00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:45,810 S2: a country album. And that that is kind of missing 446 00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:46,980 S2: the point. Like, this was never going to be a 447 00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:50,700 S2: 22 track hoedown. Yeah, yeah. And I and I really 448 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:53,460 S2: appreciate that. Like I went back and rewatch that performance 449 00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:56,730 S2: at the CMAs, um, her and the chicks. And it's really, 450 00:22:56,730 --> 00:22:59,159 S2: it's really interesting. Like, you watch Beyonce's body language and 451 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,040 S2: stuff and you can feel that tension in the air and, 452 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,889 S2: you know, like there's an argument to be made like, 453 00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:07,410 S2: this woman is one of the most powerful people in music. 454 00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:10,590 S2: She's a billionaire. Like, is it hard for her to 455 00:23:10,590 --> 00:23:14,010 S2: feel unwelcome? Like you can tell, though, when you watch 456 00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:17,040 S2: that clip, like she was a bit rattled and and 457 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,930 S2: so like, it makes a lot of sense that that 458 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:21,570 S2: this project has been a kind of fruition of that. 459 00:23:21,869 --> 00:23:24,180 S2: And so I think all of that is, you know, 460 00:23:24,180 --> 00:23:27,600 S2: really interesting. And that's like the interesting part of the process. And, 461 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,240 S2: and and that for me is not the issue with 462 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,010 S2: the album, but like, yeah, I guess there are, there 463 00:23:32,010 --> 00:23:34,320 S2: are other things that I, that I struggle with. But yeah, 464 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,290 S2: in terms of the way she's approached, like interrogating and 465 00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:40,350 S2: exploring the black history of country music, um, I think 466 00:23:40,350 --> 00:23:42,030 S2: that's like she's done an incredible job. 467 00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:44,820 S1: I'm keen to know more about what didn't work for 468 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:46,080 S1: you because like I said, there are a couple of 469 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,470 S1: tracks that I think like skips for me. You know, 470 00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:51,750 S1: a lot of people love the Molly and Post Malone ones. 471 00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:53,609 S1: They're fine. They're not the ones that get me the 472 00:23:53,609 --> 00:23:56,940 S1: most excited. But what doesn't land for you as well 473 00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:57,899 S1: as you might have liked? 474 00:23:58,050 --> 00:24:00,659 S2: Well, it's not even necessarily about like that. I didn't 475 00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:03,750 S2: like particular things of it. I just thought when I 476 00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:05,399 S2: listened to it, I was like, this is just feels 477 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,640 S2: like another Beyonce album. And especially like the from like 478 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,790 S2: basically the the back half of the album, which is 479 00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:14,490 S2: probably my favourite half of the album, but it's so 480 00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:17,909 S2: like they're just like kind of R&B, soul like tracks. 481 00:24:17,910 --> 00:24:19,980 S2: And so when I was listening to it, I was like, 482 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:22,199 S2: these are good. But then like when I'm trying to 483 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,889 S2: match my response to it, to the like response in 484 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:29,400 S2: the like cultural sphere, I can't marry those two things up. 485 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,129 S1: But it's funny because you say like just another Beyonce record, 486 00:24:32,130 --> 00:24:34,889 S1: but like, that bar is so high. So even if 487 00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:38,190 S1: it is just another Beyonce record and it's just soul 488 00:24:38,190 --> 00:24:39,990 S1: and a bit of hip hop and a bit of R&B, 489 00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:42,780 S1: it's still like some of the best hip hop and 490 00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:44,190 S1: R&B around, right? 491 00:24:44,190 --> 00:24:47,580 S2: Yeah, but it's like, I mean, it is good, but like, 492 00:24:47,580 --> 00:24:49,920 S2: it's not moving the needle for me. I'm also not 493 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,350 S2: like a massive I don't like, you know, I'm a 494 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:54,420 S2: massive Beyonce fan from the get go. I really like 495 00:24:54,420 --> 00:24:56,609 S2: her music, but I don't like it's not like I'm 496 00:24:56,609 --> 00:24:59,970 S2: an avid Beyonce listener, so I just like I listen 497 00:24:59,970 --> 00:25:02,399 S2: to it and I'm like, this is really good, but 498 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,090 S2: I still can't marry up. Like the response to this 499 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:08,460 S2: particular album with like the music that I'm hearing, I 500 00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:11,730 S2: think it's great. And the songs like really land for me. 501 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:14,220 S2: But I still, I do think there is a with 502 00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:17,580 S2: each progressive Beyonce album, and the more her like aura 503 00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:22,560 S2: seems to grow, the like inevitable response that happens without 504 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,500 S2: any type of interrogation becomes like more and more rusted on. 505 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:27,540 S2: Like we're just getting we have to like you have 506 00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:29,340 S2: to be like, wow, this is the most incredible record 507 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:31,290 S2: that's ever been made. Yeah, I. 508 00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:33,629 S1: Think that that's absolutely a factor that exists. And I 509 00:25:33,630 --> 00:25:36,390 S1: think you see that we mentioned this earlier with people 510 00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:38,490 S1: of the stature of Beyonce and Swift, where everyone's a 511 00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:41,760 S1: bit scared to say this doesn't quite hit because what 512 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,500 S1: is the incentive for doing that? You get a lot 513 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:46,320 S1: of hate from fans and you look out of touch. 514 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:50,250 S1: The Washington Post, interestingly, had a pretty brutal like review 515 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:52,440 S1: of the album. I didn't really agree with it, but also, 516 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,390 S1: I don't think that's bad. Like, I think I think 517 00:25:54,390 --> 00:25:57,659 S1: you're kind of right. It can be odd to just 518 00:25:57,660 --> 00:26:01,770 S1: see universal praise, particularly when you know, and even as 519 00:26:01,770 --> 00:26:04,560 S1: someone who really does like the album, you still know 520 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,590 S1: that there's a pot in the back of the minds 521 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:09,780 S1: of a lot of critics and editors and stuff that 522 00:26:09,780 --> 00:26:12,180 S1: it's just like, this is going to be a big deal. 523 00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:15,060 S1: We want to attract these people to how to our website. 524 00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:18,359 S1: Let's tell everyone how great it is that that is 525 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,060 S1: a tricky thing when we're talking about something like this. 526 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:23,340 S1: Did you read that Washington Post review? Did that? Did 527 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:24,149 S1: that work for you? 528 00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:25,920 S2: Yeah. No, it didn't work. It didn't work for me 529 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,480 S2: because I felt it was just like I always thought 530 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,760 S2: that was like an outrage, like looking for clicks, you know, 531 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,340 S2: like even the headline was like, Beyonce's Cowboy Carter isn't 532 00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:34,530 S2: a country album. It's worse. Like, you can you can 533 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:36,450 S2: see what they're trying to do. Yeah, I think I've 534 00:26:36,450 --> 00:26:39,210 S2: just found it generally, like I actually thought the most 535 00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:41,550 S2: interesting take I read was The New Yorker, which came 536 00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:44,310 S2: out this morning, and that was by Doreen Saint Felix. 537 00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,680 S2: She's a young American Haitian writer, awesome critic. 538 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:46,980 S1: Yeah. 539 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:49,379 S2: And her, it was like the cultural comment section. And 540 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:51,870 S2: her headline was Beyonce won't Burn the Barn Down with 541 00:26:51,869 --> 00:26:55,080 S2: Cowboy Carter. And the review is like very even and 542 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,230 S2: very balanced, but not I wouldn't say positive. And basically 543 00:26:58,230 --> 00:27:00,210 S2: she kind of says, she says a lot of what 544 00:27:00,210 --> 00:27:02,310 S2: I'm saying because we're both so smart. No. But like 545 00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:07,440 S2: she she basically says like Beyonce, her weakness is her singularity. 546 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,169 S2: You know, like she does what she does. And even 547 00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:13,020 S2: though the more she tries to show everyone that she's 548 00:27:13,020 --> 00:27:15,960 S2: capable of all these different things, it only stands to 549 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,939 S2: like show how isolated she is from the rest of 550 00:27:17,940 --> 00:27:21,060 S2: the music world. She's so famous beyond compare now that 551 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:23,850 S2: she just kind of is in this bubble in Beyonce land, 552 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:27,030 S2: like doing Beyonce things. I just, I do think that 553 00:27:27,030 --> 00:27:30,899 S2: the the criticisms have been like, I agree with what 554 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,480 S2: you said. It's hard when such a big moment occurs 555 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,159 S2: and then you listen to it a few times and 556 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,949 S2: then everyone rushes to get their hot takes in. But yeah, 557 00:27:37,950 --> 00:27:39,419 S2: I do think the more I listen to it, the 558 00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:42,300 S2: more I just am left with the feeling that it's 559 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:44,760 S2: a really good record from a really talented artist. But 560 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,960 S2: internally I feel like I'm supposed to be like fawning 561 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,810 S2: over it, when really I felt similar to listening to 562 00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:54,570 S2: the Waxahatchee record last week. Like I thought they're both 563 00:27:54,570 --> 00:27:56,010 S2: equally great music. 564 00:27:56,850 --> 00:27:59,609 S1: Yeah, yeah. And I think there's also a challenge when 565 00:27:59,609 --> 00:28:01,740 S1: an artist has been at the top of their game 566 00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:05,250 S1: for so long, how could they transcend? You know, I 567 00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:08,520 S1: think we'll probably have a similar conversation about the tortured poets, too. 568 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,560 S1: But when that comes out, it's probably going to be 569 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,500 S1: a clinically well-executed record that hits all the right notes. 570 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,770 S1: But it's like after listening to ten of these records 571 00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:19,620 S1: from someone who can just deliver something that sounds really good, 572 00:28:19,619 --> 00:28:22,470 S1: that's got good, interesting lyrics that can make people feel 573 00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:24,900 S1: and want to dance or cry or whatever. It's like, 574 00:28:25,170 --> 00:28:27,389 S1: this is what they do. This is what they're good at. 575 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:29,609 S1: I'm happy for them. I'm happy for people who like it. 576 00:28:29,609 --> 00:28:34,320 S1: But is it is it doing something different? Maybe not 577 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,500 S1: so much, but maybe also. That shouldn't be our expectation 578 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:40,080 S1: for someone who's been in the game that long. It's very, 579 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,460 S1: very hard for artists who. Have been making music for 580 00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:48,290 S1: two decades or more to completely reinvent themselves in a 581 00:28:48,290 --> 00:28:52,220 S1: way that feels authentic and is actually good. Often when 582 00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:54,470 S1: artists try and do it, it seems a bit fake 583 00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:57,860 S1: and it's bad. I mean, look at Camila Cabello. She's 584 00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,860 S1: not even as old or established as Beyonce and Taylor Swift, 585 00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:04,400 S1: and she is reinventing herself as a hyperpop artist. It's 586 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,530 S1: it's really hard to like to like, shake people up. 587 00:29:06,530 --> 00:29:08,540 S1: And I think Beyonce is trying to do that a bit, 588 00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:11,120 S1: but also in some ways playing it a bit safe 589 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,210 S1: by reminding everyone she can just do the R&B stuff really, 590 00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:17,270 S1: really well. I feel like one track that has been 591 00:29:17,270 --> 00:29:23,930 S1: a lightning rod for this album is Jolene. Dolly Parton's very, very, 592 00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:26,690 S1: very famous song been covered hundreds and hundreds of times 593 00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:30,860 S1: recently by Miley Cyrus as well. Beyonce does something interesting 594 00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:34,219 S1: with this one. She gets Dolly to introduce the track. 595 00:29:36,290 --> 00:29:40,640 S5: Hey Miss Honeybee, it's Dolly P, you know that Hear'Say 596 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,250 S5: with the good hair you sing about reminded me of 597 00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:46,970 S5: someone I knew back when. Except she has flaming locks 598 00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:49,010 S5: of auburn hair, bless her heart. 599 00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:51,590 S1: And Dolly makes reference to lemonade. It looks like Becky 600 00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:54,350 S1: with the good hair. And then Beyoncé changes up the 601 00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:56,960 S1: lyrics and the vibe of Jolene pretty significantly. So instead 602 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,310 S1: of being a sort of. Pretty desperate, pleading song, begging 603 00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:05,970 S1: Jolene to stay away and maybe, you know, maybe expressing 604 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:08,940 S1: a bit of desire for Jolene herself. Beyonce is like, no, no, no, 605 00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:11,790 S1: get away from my man, you bitch. Like, I'm sorry, Jolene, 606 00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:13,170 S1: you're a hussy. Get out of here. 607 00:30:15,710 --> 00:30:18,410 S3: I had to have a talk with you. Cause I hate. 608 00:30:18,410 --> 00:30:21,470 UU: To have to act a fool. Your peace depends on 609 00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:28,340 UU: how you moved your leave. Me and my men cross those. 610 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,110 UU: His highs and lows and everything between. Good. Do you 611 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:38,420 UU: like tumbling wheat? I sleep good. 612 00:30:39,050 --> 00:30:40,820 S3: Me cause you came to go by. What? 613 00:30:40,820 --> 00:30:43,010 S1: Planted? See, this didn't work for a lot of people. 614 00:30:43,010 --> 00:30:44,540 S1: I don't actually know how you feel about this one. 615 00:30:44,540 --> 00:30:46,790 S1: What did you make of Beyoncé's rework of Jolene? 616 00:30:47,060 --> 00:30:49,190 S2: Yeah, I didn't mind it, like, I, I mean, I 617 00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:52,310 S2: feel like I've got, um, I've learned my lesson with 618 00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:54,620 S2: covers ever since I was like, Luke Combs is fast, 619 00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:57,350 S2: car is the best cover of all time. And everyone 620 00:30:57,350 --> 00:31:00,290 S2: made fun of me. No, like, it's really funny because 621 00:31:00,290 --> 00:31:03,170 S2: I mean, look, firstly I was like, props to Beyonce 622 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:05,870 S2: for covering Jolene because like, not only is she doing 623 00:31:05,870 --> 00:31:08,990 S2: like a country, um, album in theory, but then she's 624 00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:11,330 S2: going to add like the most famous, probably the most 625 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:14,330 S2: covered country song by one of the most iconic country 626 00:31:14,330 --> 00:31:16,190 S2: artists of all time. So I thought that took like 627 00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:19,460 S2: bravery in itself. Um, as a cover. I thought it 628 00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:21,740 S2: was good. Like, I respect the fact that she, like, 629 00:31:21,740 --> 00:31:25,190 S2: shifted it up and stuff. I mean, it's really interesting, again, 630 00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:27,560 S2: looking at how people have responded to this because it 631 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,710 S2: almost is like a, um, snapshot of just generally people's 632 00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:33,260 S2: issue with it or like what they love about it. 633 00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:35,930 S2: I do think there is some merit in saying that, 634 00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:39,530 S2: you know, the beautiful thing about Dolly Parton's Jolene is 635 00:31:39,530 --> 00:31:41,930 S2: it's like there's so much vulnerability in it. Like she, 636 00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:45,620 S2: the protagonist is like pleading, and it's a song that's 637 00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:48,680 S2: coming from a really vulnerable spot, whereas Beyonce is refashioned 638 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,750 S2: it into something that's more of like a, you know, 639 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:54,440 S2: like foot stomping, like call to arms, which has its 640 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,810 S2: own merit. But I think what I personally enjoy about 641 00:31:56,810 --> 00:32:01,250 S2: the original Jolene is that position. Um, and so like, yeah, 642 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:02,330 S2: for me it was just like it was a good cover. 643 00:32:02,330 --> 00:32:04,970 S2: I don't I didn't get angry about it like other people. Um, 644 00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:06,470 S2: I don't know. What are your take on it. 645 00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:08,090 S1: Yeah, a lot of, a lot of people express that, 646 00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:10,130 S1: that they thought that it sort of lost what Jolene 647 00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:12,410 S1: was about, which I understand. But I mean, like Jolene, 648 00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:15,530 S1: the original exists and various covers of it do exist. 649 00:32:15,530 --> 00:32:17,540 S1: I think in some ways it would have been odd 650 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:20,240 S1: for Beyonce at this stage of her life and career 651 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,750 S1: in the year 2024, to sing something that felt so 652 00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:27,530 S1: vulnerable and like pleased like that just doesn't vibe with 653 00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:32,000 S1: where Beyonce is at right now. It's interesting also that 654 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,720 S1: Dolly kind of, I think years ago really wanted Beyonce 655 00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:37,850 S1: to cover Jolene. She was talking about how she loved 656 00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:40,970 S1: when Whitney Houston, uh, did I Will Always Love You 657 00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:42,350 S1: and it's like, I'd love Beyonce to take it. 658 00:32:42,350 --> 00:32:45,380 S5: Wouldn't that be killer? I think she's fantastic and beautiful 659 00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:47,420 S5: and I love her music. I would just love to 660 00:32:47,420 --> 00:32:50,510 S5: hear Jolene done in just a big way, kind of 661 00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:53,120 S5: how Whitney did. My I Will Always Love You. Just 662 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,850 S5: someone that can take my little songs and make them 663 00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:56,780 S5: like powerhouses. 664 00:32:56,780 --> 00:33:00,380 S1: So I don't know if she envisaged it being done 665 00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:02,600 S1: in this way. I didn't mind it. It sort of 666 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,140 S1: felt more honest and true to Beyonce. I enjoyed the 667 00:33:06,140 --> 00:33:09,650 S1: lemonade callback, but that said, and I think maybe this 668 00:33:09,650 --> 00:33:12,590 S1: goes to your point about it being, you know, plumbing 669 00:33:12,590 --> 00:33:18,080 S1: similar similar ground to to earlier Beyonce work. The fact 670 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,620 S1: that the emotional resonance of this track and a few 671 00:33:21,620 --> 00:33:25,520 S1: other tracks on the album go back to the affair, 672 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,090 S1: the alleged affair that Jay-Z had, which she talked about 673 00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:32,030 S1: in depth eight years ago and talked about as much 674 00:33:32,030 --> 00:33:34,190 S1: as you possibly could. I'm not saying she doesn't have 675 00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:36,470 S1: the right to keep talking about it, but it does 676 00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:39,500 S1: sort of suggest that maybe on that front, there's not 677 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:41,240 S1: much left for Beyonce to say. 678 00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:44,870 S2: I kind of think the same. Well, firstly, like, you know, again, 679 00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:47,000 S2: probably not a popular opinion, but I almost felt bad 680 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,220 S2: for Becky with the good hair. She's she's been put 681 00:33:49,220 --> 00:33:51,050 S2: on blast like twice now by like one of the 682 00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:53,690 S2: most famous women on the planet. And it takes two 683 00:33:53,690 --> 00:33:56,570 S2: to tango. Like, you know, Jay-Z was involved in this. 684 00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:58,219 S2: I don't know, it just feels I think there is 685 00:33:58,220 --> 00:34:00,800 S2: an almost a touch of like, people feeling like, okay, 686 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,380 S2: like the first time. Fair enough. Now you're just like 687 00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:06,980 S2: shooting fish in a barrel type thing. I mean, I 688 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:09,560 S2: am loathe to bring Azealia Banks up, but this is 689 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,190 S2: probably the funniest fucking thing from this entire conversation. Uh, 690 00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:17,330 S2: Azealia Banks, famously levelheaded, took to Instagram Stories to tell 691 00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:20,120 S2: Beyoncé to find new content because nobody and I mean 692 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,480 S2: nobody capital letters thinks Jay-Z is even remotely attractive. 693 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,350 S1: I mean, I saw that and people like, that's funny. 694 00:34:27,350 --> 00:34:29,719 S1: But I mean, it's also not true. Like, it's obviously 695 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,569 S1: not true that there's never been anyone who's wanted to 696 00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:35,510 S1: sleep with Jay-Z or, you know, like the affair was, like, 697 00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:37,640 S1: seemingly true, right? Correct. 698 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,859 S2: Yeah. Like, I think everyone knows that obviously something happened 699 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:41,300 S2: and that was like, you know, we got so much 700 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:43,879 S2: work from that. I do I just I mean, I look, 701 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,589 S2: I'm always down for Azealia Banks. No, no. 702 00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:47,660 S1: When she's been on fire with a lot of the 703 00:34:47,660 --> 00:34:48,650 S1: reviews lately. 704 00:34:48,650 --> 00:34:49,070 S2: Yeah. 705 00:34:49,550 --> 00:34:51,080 S1: The other thing I wanted to say about the Jolene 706 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,900 S1: track is, you know, we have this tendency these days 707 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:58,339 S1: to take songs very literally, and that's not our fault. 708 00:34:58,340 --> 00:35:00,920 S1: I say us, I mean, like music listeners, fans, critics 709 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,310 S1: or whatever, like artists ask us to do that by 710 00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:08,210 S1: relaying either in the music or on social media or 711 00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:10,400 S1: in liner notes or whatever, that this stuff relates to 712 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,400 S1: a thing that actually happened. But I don't think every 713 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,820 S1: time Beyonce talks about Becky with the good hair or. 714 00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:21,180 S1: The situation with her and Jay-Z, or even when she 715 00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:23,460 S1: talks about her relationship with her father. I don't think 716 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:26,339 S1: that all supposed to be literal. I mean, even the 717 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:30,750 S1: original Jolene, Dolly says. That's kind of inspired by some 718 00:35:30,750 --> 00:35:33,000 S1: woman who was, I think, working at a bank floating 719 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,540 S1: with her husband at the time. But the name and 720 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:38,549 S1: the visual image of it came from a fan at 721 00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:40,650 S1: a concert. So all of these things are like maybe 722 00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:42,840 S1: a little bit grounded in reality. But artists sometimes try 723 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,820 S1: to make a bigger point as well. And I actually 724 00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:49,110 S1: think there's potentially another layer to Beyonce's cover of Jolene 725 00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:51,930 S1: that fits into the metaphor of the whole album. It's 726 00:35:51,930 --> 00:35:55,680 S1: not just about the idea of Jay-Z having this affair 727 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,530 S1: with Becky with the good hair. The three songs Dolly P, 728 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,380 S1: where Dolly Parton introduces Jolene, Jolene itself, and then the 729 00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:04,950 S1: song that comes afterwards, daughter. They all kind of smoothly 730 00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:07,560 S1: blend into one another. When Jolene finishes, we get this 731 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,760 S1: segue into daughter, and it's really interesting because the start 732 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,090 S1: of that track is Beyoncé singing about how she's left 733 00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:17,550 S1: a woman bloodied and bruised. 734 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,840 S3: Your body laid out on these filthy floors. Your blood 735 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,990 S3: stains on my custom catwalks. 736 00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:40,279 UU: Bathroom attendant. Let me right in. She was a big fan. 737 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,750 S3: Really try to stay cool. But your arrogance disturb myself. 738 00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:53,859 S1: And immediately that makes us think like okay, Beyonce's body. 739 00:36:53,860 --> 00:36:57,520 S1: Jolene here. This is, this is pretty hectic. And then 740 00:36:57,700 --> 00:36:59,980 S1: later on in that track, she she does a callback 741 00:36:59,980 --> 00:37:01,930 S1: to to daddy lessons. You know, if you cross me, 742 00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:04,660 S1: I'm just like my father. And that original song Daddy 743 00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:09,070 S1: Lessons was about what a woman inherits from her dad particularly, 744 00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:11,590 S1: you know, lots of references to to guns and the 745 00:37:11,590 --> 00:37:15,010 S1: potential violence there, if wrong, has been done. And then 746 00:37:15,010 --> 00:37:17,020 S1: it made me think, okay, so if this song is 747 00:37:17,020 --> 00:37:22,210 S1: now referring us back to the overall metaphor of the album, 748 00:37:22,210 --> 00:37:26,620 S1: could Jolene mean something different, not just be an actual 749 00:37:26,620 --> 00:37:30,130 S1: physical woman? If this album is a reaction to the 750 00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:32,799 S1: way that black people in some way have been erased 751 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,850 S1: from country and and the reaction that she got to 752 00:37:36,850 --> 00:37:40,779 S1: daddy lessons. Jolene isn't just a woman. It's not just 753 00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:43,510 S1: a song. It's it's a song that is very iconic 754 00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:48,960 S1: and representative of a particular white country sound. Beyoncé is 755 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,170 S1: literally killing her and saying, like, you know, stay away 756 00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:55,590 S1: from my man. Like, yo, you get out of here. 757 00:37:55,590 --> 00:37:58,049 S1: I'm taking him back. I'm the one in charge of 758 00:37:58,050 --> 00:38:00,510 S1: this narrative. I'm the one in control. You're dead. It's 759 00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:05,330 S1: me and my man. That could be a. Metaphor for 760 00:38:05,330 --> 00:38:10,100 S1: her relationship to country and the history of black countries. Well, 761 00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:14,150 S1: she's saying, I'm literally killing you guys, and I am. 762 00:38:14,890 --> 00:38:17,589 S1: Reminding everyone that like, black people have been here from 763 00:38:17,590 --> 00:38:20,379 S1: the start, so stay away from this genre. I'm not 764 00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:24,190 S1: saying that necessarily. She's literally intending it to be taken 765 00:38:24,190 --> 00:38:26,500 S1: in such a violent way, but I think there is 766 00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:30,370 S1: definitely a consistent theme and idea throughout the album of that. 767 00:38:30,370 --> 00:38:32,800 S1: And I think there is a way to read Jolene, 768 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,680 S1: particularly when you add the coda of daughter that makes 769 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,990 S1: it fit in with that broader context of the album 770 00:38:37,989 --> 00:38:38,560 S1: as well. 771 00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:41,740 S2: Look, it's a good cover, bro. All right, I said 772 00:38:41,739 --> 00:38:44,980 S2: I liked it. No, I think there could be something 773 00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:48,040 S2: in that. Um, it's funny, though, because people have so 774 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,859 S2: such a strange response to covers like, we really don't 775 00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:53,770 S2: know how to take them anymore. And especially when you 776 00:38:53,770 --> 00:38:56,740 S2: add in, like the intense fame around an artist like 777 00:38:56,739 --> 00:39:02,620 S2: Beyoncé and then the like, how deeply connected and attached 778 00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:06,130 S2: people feel to a song like Jolene. It's really interesting 779 00:39:06,130 --> 00:39:07,930 S2: to see the different response. And, you know, we joked 780 00:39:07,930 --> 00:39:10,900 S2: about Luke Combs with Fast Car before, but again, that's like, 781 00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:13,989 S2: you know, an iconic song from a much loved singer 782 00:39:13,989 --> 00:39:17,319 S2: songwriter being taken on by this new voice in country. 783 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,680 S2: And people had a really strong and polarizing reaction. Some 784 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,990 S2: people loved it. Some people hated the fact that Luke 785 00:39:22,989 --> 00:39:26,020 S2: Combs didn't really do much with it. Like, you know, 786 00:39:26,020 --> 00:39:28,780 S2: he kept pretty faithful to the original Beyonce. He's obviously 787 00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:31,630 S2: done the complete opposite. I just feel like it's, yeah, 788 00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:33,790 S2: if you're an artist and you're going to include like 789 00:39:33,790 --> 00:39:36,010 S2: a really famous cover on your album, it's often like 790 00:39:36,010 --> 00:39:37,149 S2: a lose lose. 791 00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:39,549 S1: Yeah. But I think, I think that is well, like 792 00:39:39,550 --> 00:39:41,980 S1: there's the racial dynamic of that. The inversion there I 793 00:39:41,980 --> 00:39:44,110 S1: think is really interesting. It's like Luke Combs got some heat, 794 00:39:44,110 --> 00:39:47,440 S1: but also he's a white guy, you know, who's built 795 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,840 S1: a profile for himself covering this song from a black 796 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,759 S1: woman and largely society, the industry, the Grammys. Everyone was like, 797 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,250 S1: you're great. Like, good on you. Let's go. In fact, 798 00:39:57,250 --> 00:40:00,190 S1: we're gonna bring back Tracy Chapman, who we've pretended hasn't 799 00:40:00,190 --> 00:40:02,170 S1: existed for like, three decades, to sing with you at 800 00:40:02,170 --> 00:40:04,510 S1: the Grammys. Beyonce has done the opposite of that. She's 801 00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:08,680 S1: taken a song that is so, like part of the 802 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,370 S1: fabric of, like, white country culture and has. She's not 803 00:40:12,370 --> 00:40:14,080 S1: an idiot, right? Like when people are saying, I don't 804 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,620 S1: like what Beyonce's done. Totally valid. Beyoncé knew that she 805 00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:20,890 S1: was taking a song that is so iconic and beloved 806 00:40:20,890 --> 00:40:24,040 S1: and changing it. She's not a moron. She knows that 807 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,590 S1: some people might not like it. I think that is 808 00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:28,780 S1: in and of itself, a statement of what she's trying 809 00:40:28,780 --> 00:40:30,820 S1: to do on this album is saying, I will take 810 00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:33,969 S1: your totems and I will change them. I will literally 811 00:40:33,969 --> 00:40:36,220 S1: maybe kill them in the next little bit of it. 812 00:40:36,219 --> 00:40:38,830 S1: And it's yeah, again, I think it's fine not to 813 00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:41,560 S1: like what the song does as just a song, as 814 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,480 S1: a changing of the lyrics, but I think as an 815 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:49,630 S1: attempt to literally like, very literally take that song and 816 00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:54,280 S1: make it hers, it's interesting and sort of I respect that. 817 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,270 S2: Yeah, I do respect it too. Um, and I think 818 00:40:58,270 --> 00:41:01,299 S2: it is funny to just like, I guess, sit on 819 00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,870 S2: that and think about how people will continue to respond 820 00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:06,969 S2: to it. But yeah, I still think that, uh, Luke 821 00:41:06,969 --> 00:41:08,080 S2: Combs and Tracy Chapman at the. 822 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,090 S1: Grammys, a lot of times you've been talking about Luke 823 00:41:10,090 --> 00:41:13,210 S1: Combs on a on a conversation about Beyonce's ridiculous. 824 00:41:13,210 --> 00:41:15,040 S2: I just think it was a really great Grammys moment. 825 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,950 S2: And I love Tracy Chapman. We used to play that 826 00:41:17,950 --> 00:41:20,109 S2: record to death in my house, so I was I 827 00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:23,980 S2: was stoked for that to be back onstage. And yeah, 828 00:41:23,980 --> 00:41:24,520 S2: that's why. 829 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,560 S1: Rewatching that clip of the Grammys just tearing up at 830 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,210 S1: your desk still brings me a lot of. 831 00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:30,700 S2: Joy. You know, the only live music clip I watch 832 00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:33,879 S2: more than that one is, is Pete Murray and John 833 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,219 S2: Mayer performing at the Arias together. 834 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,180 S1: Um, we're not talking about Pete Murray and John Mayer 835 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:41,230 S1: on on this in. 836 00:41:41,230 --> 00:41:46,720 S2: This conversation was Pete Murray's famous song. Soon you'll see. Anyway, 837 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,490 S2: it's a fucking mad clip. Watch it. Someone's got this 838 00:41:48,489 --> 00:41:49,960 S2: like a bootleg on YouTube. 839 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,000 S1: I will not be watching that. Before we wrap up 840 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,129 S1: the Beyonce chat though, I wanted to ask you about 841 00:41:54,130 --> 00:41:57,040 S1: any any highlights for you. I, uh, you know, I 842 00:41:57,219 --> 00:41:59,469 S1: had that big rant about Jolene. Definitely not my favorite 843 00:41:59,469 --> 00:42:03,100 S1: track on the album. I really enjoy, um, Yaya and Bodyguard, 844 00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,220 S1: which I guess are the most sort of mainstream, poppy, 845 00:42:06,219 --> 00:42:09,640 S1: fun hits. But the more I listen to the album, 846 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,680 S1: the more I really love tyrant. Towards the end of 847 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,560 S1: the album, it's intrigued by Dolly again, and then the 848 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,560 S1: bait hits and we hear, Dia got that dope, uh, 849 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,350 S1: you know, the rapper tag for for the producer. And 850 00:42:20,350 --> 00:42:22,420 S1: it's really fun. It's one of my faves. What about you? 851 00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:23,170 S1: What did you like? 852 00:42:23,290 --> 00:42:25,600 S2: Uh, so I basically had the biggest, like, let's fucking 853 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,830 S2: go moment with spaghetti. Spaghetti is my favorite song by far. Uh, great. 854 00:42:29,830 --> 00:42:30,580 S1: Bars on spaghetti. 855 00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:32,109 S2: Oh my God, so good. I ain't in a gang. 856 00:42:32,110 --> 00:42:34,330 S2: But I got shooters and I bang, bang. Like that's 857 00:42:34,330 --> 00:42:37,089 S2: what I was like, okay, that's fucking do this. Yeah, yeah, 858 00:42:37,090 --> 00:42:40,420 S2: I also love. Yeah, I really like Riverdance. Yeah. Um, 859 00:42:40,570 --> 00:42:43,960 S2: I don't hate the Post Malone track. It's weird. It's like. Like, 860 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,780 S2: do you reckon Levi, like, paid for that song? It's super. 861 00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:48,730 S1: Weird. It's like we're talking about Levi's again. Cool. 862 00:42:48,730 --> 00:42:51,489 S2: Yeah, yeah, but I like Post Malone. It's a funny. Like, 863 00:42:51,489 --> 00:42:53,410 S2: what did you make of the features on this album? 864 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:59,560 S1: Yeah, they're interesting because they really oscillated between Beyoncé, um, like, 865 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,780 S1: you know, hat tipping to black artists. And then it's 866 00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:07,930 S1: like Miley and Post Malone and Post Malone is in 867 00:43:07,930 --> 00:43:09,969 S1: his country era. He's like, definitely not a rapper. Anyway, 868 00:43:09,969 --> 00:43:12,100 S1: he's a country singer. Yeah. Um, which is really fun. 869 00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:15,340 S1: Miley's obviously always had that country connection. I thought that would. 870 00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:17,709 S1: They were interesting choices. I know that people said, well, 871 00:43:17,710 --> 00:43:19,690 S1: where was like Kacey Musgraves on this? I think that 872 00:43:19,690 --> 00:43:21,310 S1: would have been a bit boring and a bit obvious. 873 00:43:21,310 --> 00:43:26,440 S1: Beyonce doesn't need to get desperate. Emergency Country Resonance by 874 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,170 S1: Collabing with the biggest country artists right now. I think 875 00:43:29,170 --> 00:43:31,750 S1: it's more fun to to to talk to someone like 876 00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:34,300 S1: Post Malone and Miley. I enjoyed those songs. They weren't 877 00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:35,890 S1: my faves, but they were fun. 878 00:43:35,890 --> 00:43:37,930 S2: Yeah, yeah, great. That's that would have been really weird. 879 00:43:37,930 --> 00:43:40,290 S2: And again, that would have fed into. People's like, I 880 00:43:40,290 --> 00:43:43,590 S2: guess some people's suspicion that she, like Beyonce was like 881 00:43:43,590 --> 00:43:46,260 S2: jumping on the country bandwagon, which I don't think she 882 00:43:46,260 --> 00:43:49,469 S2: is doing. But I guess this album arriving at this 883 00:43:49,469 --> 00:43:52,170 S2: time of like, you know, the country renaissance, some people 884 00:43:52,170 --> 00:43:54,900 S2: think that. And if you had dumped on like Kacey 885 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:56,880 S2: Musgraves or whatever, it would have been a kind of 886 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:57,930 S2: a weird fit. 887 00:43:57,930 --> 00:44:01,620 S1: Yeah. Well, Thomas, thank you for indulging my crazy thematic 888 00:44:01,620 --> 00:44:05,190 S1: deep dives on this album and only mentioning Luke Combs 889 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:06,480 S1: half a dozen times. 890 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,000 S2: And John Mayer always got sneaky in every podcast. 891 00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:20,250 S1: Okay, so one of the biggest films this year we 892 00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:24,390 S1: talked about it was Soap and Emerald Fennell's attempted satire 893 00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:28,470 S1: on class, starring Barry Cohen and Jacob Elordi. Neither of 894 00:44:28,469 --> 00:44:33,270 S1: us particularly enjoyed this film, but it was very, very popular. 895 00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:36,300 S1: It felt very derivative. The Talented Mr. Ripley, which is 896 00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:39,090 S1: one of our favorite movies, and perhaps why we didn't 897 00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:42,330 S1: vibe with Saltburn as much. We have very big Ripley head, 898 00:44:42,330 --> 00:44:45,690 S1: so how exciting for us that Netflix is blessed us 899 00:44:45,690 --> 00:44:49,050 S1: with a new series based on the Patricia Highsmith book. 900 00:44:49,050 --> 00:44:51,750 S1: It's called Ripley the Great. 901 00:44:52,650 --> 00:44:58,920 S7: Pretender false ID bank letter. What's going on, Tom? 902 00:44:59,370 --> 00:45:01,260 S8: Do you? You're crazy. 903 00:45:01,830 --> 00:45:04,970 S9: I don't trust him. He's a liar. 904 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,590 S10: It's his profession. 905 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,120 S11: The corpse was found on the Villa Antica. Struck on 906 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,520 S11: the head by some heavy instrument. 907 00:45:14,210 --> 00:45:14,840 S12: My God. 908 00:45:17,610 --> 00:45:21,239 S1: It stars Andrew Scott. Of Hot Priest from Fleabag fame 909 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,660 S1: and Dakota Fanning. It's written and directed by Steve Zaillian, 910 00:45:24,660 --> 00:45:27,779 S1: who directed the night of the incredible HBO series starring 911 00:45:27,780 --> 00:45:31,830 S1: Riz Ahmed. He's also known for writing The Irishman, Moneyball, 912 00:45:31,830 --> 00:45:35,700 S1: American Gangster. Lots of other collabs with Scorsese. For those 913 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:39,420 S1: unfamiliar with the Ripley story, the Netflix series like the 914 00:45:39,420 --> 00:45:42,780 S1: book and the film is set in the 1950s. Tom Ripley, 915 00:45:42,780 --> 00:45:45,390 S1: played by Scott, is sort of like a grifter con 916 00:45:45,390 --> 00:45:48,870 S1: artist making a living by scamming people in New York City. 917 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,410 S1: He gets approached by a wealthy shipping industrialist who wants 918 00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:56,609 S1: him to go to Italy, the Amalfi Coast, to be precise, 919 00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:00,630 S1: and convince his son, Dickie Greenleaf, to return home back 920 00:46:00,630 --> 00:46:03,270 S1: to New York. It's an all expenses paid trip to Italy, 921 00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:06,480 S1: so Thomas Olin, who wouldn't be? He travels to Italy. 922 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,690 S1: He befriends Dickie, played by love. Six Johnny Flynn in 923 00:46:09,690 --> 00:46:12,750 S1: this series and his girlfriend Marge, played by Fanning. Things 924 00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:16,890 S1: get a bit complicated, though, when Tom tries to pry 925 00:46:16,890 --> 00:46:19,770 S1: Dickie and Marge apart, and we get a pretty tense 926 00:46:19,770 --> 00:46:22,980 S1: and thrilling adventure through Italy. Don't want to say much 927 00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:26,520 S1: more because there are significant spoilers in this series. I 928 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,459 S1: thought it was a pretty interesting adaptation. It's eight episodes 929 00:46:29,580 --> 00:46:31,799 S1: paced very differently, obviously, to the film because it's much 930 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,200 S1: longer in those episodes. I think you get to settle 931 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,390 S1: into some of the the themes of the book a 932 00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:40,589 S1: bit more like class and sexuality, Ripley's desperation to prove himself. 933 00:46:40,590 --> 00:46:42,900 S1: I'm enjoying it so far. I'm only three episodes in, 934 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:44,250 S1: but what did you make of Ripley? 935 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,489 S2: Yeah, I finished it. Um, so I've seen it all 936 00:46:47,489 --> 00:46:51,120 S2: and it's interesting. Like I really liked it. This is 937 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,580 S2: a running theme for me. I really like this. I 938 00:46:53,580 --> 00:46:55,469 S2: really like the first few episodes. And then the deeper 939 00:46:55,469 --> 00:46:58,440 S2: I got into it, the more I still enjoyed it, 940 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,120 S2: but I couldn't help. But be haunted by the feeling 941 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,080 S2: of like, what exactly does this add to? Like the 942 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,649 S2: Ripley universe? I guess only because the film is so 943 00:47:09,650 --> 00:47:12,920 S2: great and it's such a strong adaptation of the novel, 944 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,280 S2: and so many people love the film. And I guess 945 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,620 S2: that's probably the point of this. Like it's for a 946 00:47:18,620 --> 00:47:21,379 S2: new audience that would not go and watch a film 947 00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:23,720 S2: from 1999, or don't have that as a point of 948 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,170 S2: reference in their brain. But at the end I was 949 00:47:27,170 --> 00:47:29,750 S2: a little bit like really enjoyed it. And Andrew Scott 950 00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:32,090 S2: especially is is great as Ripley. He kind of toes 951 00:47:32,090 --> 00:47:35,629 S2: the line so delicately between, you know, like a, a 952 00:47:35,630 --> 00:47:39,920 S2: full blown sociopath and someone who's very charming and a chameleon. He's, 953 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,480 S2: he's like very good as Ripley. But I, I did wonder. 954 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,350 S2: If you're looking at the two pieces of work, what 955 00:47:48,350 --> 00:47:51,379 S2: this adds to it like, and not that it necessarily 956 00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:53,270 S2: needs to change the story or anything like that, but 957 00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:56,060 S2: for me, I still think The Talented Mr. Ripley is 958 00:47:56,060 --> 00:47:58,609 S2: is always going to be the benchmark for, you know, 959 00:47:58,610 --> 00:47:59,870 S2: Patricia Highsmith novel. 960 00:47:59,870 --> 00:48:02,150 S1: It's a really good question. And, you know, there's been 961 00:48:02,150 --> 00:48:04,250 S1: a lot of Ripley adaptations over the years. I think 962 00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:06,410 S1: the first one actually was is in the 50s, purple, 963 00:48:06,410 --> 00:48:09,230 S1: purple noon. And then John Malkovich has played Ripley. Like 964 00:48:09,230 --> 00:48:12,710 S1: this has been a very, I guess, well covered, well 965 00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:17,629 S1: adapted book series throughout the decades. Yeah, I, I kind 966 00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:20,419 S1: of agree disagree with you. I think, you know, like, yeah. 967 00:48:20,420 --> 00:48:24,200 S1: What's the point of the adaptation? It's probably a little 968 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,750 S1: bit cynical. It's probably like, you know, let's, let's look 969 00:48:26,750 --> 00:48:29,420 S1: at what IP exists and how do we make something 970 00:48:29,420 --> 00:48:31,069 S1: that maybe some people are familiar with and we can 971 00:48:31,070 --> 00:48:33,980 S1: introduce new audiences to it? But I never actually read 972 00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:36,620 S1: the books until the show came out. And I thought, okay, well, 973 00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:38,660 S1: this is a good excuse for me to actually read 974 00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:41,569 S1: the The Patricia Highsmith book and see what the differences 975 00:48:41,570 --> 00:48:46,010 S1: are between the film and, and the series. And so far, 976 00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:48,740 S1: it seems like this series is a much more faithful 977 00:48:48,739 --> 00:48:52,130 S1: adaptation of the book than the film was. Obviously, I 978 00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:55,130 S1: love the film, the changes that it made. Fine with me. 979 00:48:55,130 --> 00:48:57,380 S1: I like it a lot, but you get a little 980 00:48:57,380 --> 00:49:01,819 S1: bit more. I think of the ideas that Highsmith's using 981 00:49:01,820 --> 00:49:06,049 S1: Ripley to explore, and I think Ripley sexuality is a 982 00:49:06,050 --> 00:49:09,680 S1: really interesting one. Like she's never said he's explicitly gay 983 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,320 S1: or queer or bisexual or anything like that, but in 984 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,080 S1: the book, you know, he does muse on his attraction 985 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,120 S1: to men. That is part of the film as well. 986 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,969 S1: I mean, people talk about the bathtub scene in Saltburn 987 00:49:19,969 --> 00:49:22,130 S1: that is just like a shameless rip off of a 988 00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:25,640 S1: much more subtle and interesting bathtub scene in The Talented Mr. Ripley. 989 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,660 S1: But actually getting Andrew Scott, who is gay. I think 990 00:49:29,660 --> 00:49:33,230 S1: maybe the first out gay artist to play Ripley is 991 00:49:33,230 --> 00:49:36,589 S1: really interesting in terms of the explicit way they talk 992 00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:40,880 S1: about queerness and how maybe that fits into some of 993 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,989 S1: his motivations, like there's experiences of homophobia that he has 994 00:49:44,989 --> 00:49:47,750 S1: with Dickie Greenleaf. That is not something I've seen explored 995 00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:50,960 S1: before in in a Ripley adaptation. So maybe it needed 996 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,390 S1: to not be the 90s, and you needed someone like 997 00:49:53,390 --> 00:49:56,180 S1: Andrew Scott involved in the project to feel safe exploring 998 00:49:56,180 --> 00:49:58,790 S1: that sort of stuff. I also enjoyed what I think 999 00:49:58,790 --> 00:50:01,490 S1: is some of the sharpest critiques on rich people, and 1000 00:50:01,550 --> 00:50:04,310 S1: it's like one of my favorite bits is when Ripley 1001 00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:06,410 S1: gets to Italy and he's like, what? What did Dickie 1002 00:50:06,410 --> 00:50:09,109 S1: and Marge, these just like rich kids bumming about doing. 1003 00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:11,660 S1: And they do what a lot of wealthy people do 1004 00:50:11,660 --> 00:50:14,390 S1: is just say that they're artists. And it is very 1005 00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:17,600 S1: clear that they are not very good artists. Dickie is 1006 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,110 S1: a painter. Uh, Marge is like a poet photographer, and 1007 00:50:21,110 --> 00:50:24,290 S1: he's clearly disgusted with them. And I thought, that's like 1008 00:50:24,290 --> 00:50:29,480 S1: an interesting critique of that class of people. And Tom 1009 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,029 S1: is clearly so disgusted by it, because that's not what 1010 00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:34,130 S1: he comes from. He's like, God, you guys are the 1011 00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:36,410 S1: ones who have the time and the resources to make stuff, 1012 00:50:36,410 --> 00:50:38,810 S1: and you suck so bad at it. The the more 1013 00:50:38,810 --> 00:50:42,950 S1: basic take as to why I'm enjoying the adaptation, why 1014 00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:47,060 S1: I'm sort of happy it exists. It looks phenomenal, like 1015 00:50:47,060 --> 00:50:50,330 S1: it's shot in black and white. Shot on location in 1016 00:50:50,330 --> 00:50:54,110 S1: Italy by the DOP Robert Elswit, who won the Oscar 1017 00:50:54,110 --> 00:50:56,720 S1: for filming there Will Be Blood. I know that some 1018 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,700 S1: people think it's a bit indulgent and like there's all 1019 00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:02,390 S1: these like, long, lingering close ups on cigarette packets and 1020 00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:05,540 S1: just like old Italian men. But that's TV, man. Like 1021 00:51:05,540 --> 00:51:06,740 S1: I'm enjoying that as well. 1022 00:51:07,010 --> 00:51:09,230 S2: Yeah, no, I agree, it looks amazing. I'm so here 1023 00:51:09,230 --> 00:51:10,910 S2: for the black and white. And I do think like, 1024 00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:14,270 S2: you know, probably my, my favorite thing too is the 1025 00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:17,150 S2: interrogation of like, Dickie and Marge and that class of 1026 00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:19,339 S2: people who just like they live the life that everyone 1027 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:21,469 S2: talks about in their daydreams, like to move to Italy 1028 00:51:21,469 --> 00:51:24,560 S2: and and have no purpose and pretend that you're, you know, 1029 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,320 S2: working on a masterpiece or writing the next bestseller. And 1030 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,240 S2: it's so funny as well, because, again, this is no 1031 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,610 S2: real spoilers. But, you know, Marge, like, offers some of 1032 00:51:31,610 --> 00:51:33,710 S2: her riding up to Tom to look at, and you 1033 00:51:33,710 --> 00:51:37,580 S2: can just tell she's so amateurish. And yet in her mind, 1034 00:51:37,580 --> 00:51:40,250 S2: she's this tortured artist tucked away in the, you know, 1035 00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:43,459 S2: Italian seaside working on this amazing novel. And and that 1036 00:51:43,460 --> 00:51:45,980 S2: is a luxury of indulgence that is only afforded to 1037 00:51:45,980 --> 00:51:48,860 S2: people of a certain class. And so that I appreciate. 1038 00:51:48,860 --> 00:51:50,810 S2: But yeah, I think, again, I still felt at the 1039 00:51:50,810 --> 00:51:53,060 S2: end I was like, okay, a really good show, but 1040 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,930 S2: whether or not I felt like it massively took the 1041 00:51:56,930 --> 00:52:00,739 S2: Ripley legend and, and and leapt it forward that much, 1042 00:52:00,739 --> 00:52:03,350 S2: I'm not sure. Uh, but yeah, I still think it's 1043 00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:05,810 S2: a great show. And, you know, we've talked a lot 1044 00:52:05,810 --> 00:52:08,989 S2: recently about what Netflix is doing with itself, and this 1045 00:52:08,989 --> 00:52:10,940 S2: is definitely a step in the right direction in terms 1046 00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:13,669 S2: of like, something more experimental and something that offers something 1047 00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:17,030 S2: different for viewers. But, you know, I was reading this 1048 00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:20,840 S2: thing recently about there is just and this could just be, 1049 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,020 S2: you know, me looking back with rose colored glasses, but 1050 00:52:24,020 --> 00:52:26,299 S2: there was something magical that was like a bit lightning 1051 00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:28,760 S2: in the bottle of The Talented Mr. Ripley. Like, it 1052 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,670 S2: brought together this cast that was all on the verge 1053 00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:35,569 S2: collectively of, like, making it into the next stratosphere of 1054 00:52:35,570 --> 00:52:38,360 S2: being a star. It had like, you know, Jude Law, 1055 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,260 S2: Matt Damon, Cate Blanchett and Gwyneth Paltrow. You know, they 1056 00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:45,230 S2: brought together this really unusual script the director had just. 1057 00:52:45,340 --> 00:52:47,620 S2: One like a thousand Oscars for The English Patient, like 1058 00:52:47,620 --> 00:52:50,560 S2: it was this magic time, I think. And I think 1059 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,009 S2: the film captured something that is hard to recreate. And 1060 00:52:54,010 --> 00:52:56,980 S2: so for me, The Talented Mr. Ripley kind of remains 1061 00:52:56,980 --> 00:52:58,239 S2: up there as the benchmark. 1062 00:52:58,270 --> 00:53:01,060 S1: Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure this will be that popular 1063 00:53:01,060 --> 00:53:03,130 S1: as a series. Maybe I don't want it to be 1064 00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:06,100 S1: popular because I don't want, you know, south of Italy 1065 00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:09,580 S1: to be slammed with people more than it already is. Um, 1066 00:53:09,580 --> 00:53:12,100 S1: but it's just like it is a bit different to 1067 00:53:12,100 --> 00:53:14,890 S1: most Netflix series. It's a bit slower, it demands a 1068 00:53:14,890 --> 00:53:18,040 S1: little bit more. And I just wonder whether people will, like, 1069 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,050 S1: get bored with it, because it doesn't have that sort 1070 00:53:20,050 --> 00:53:22,840 S1: of frenetic pace that a lot of Netflix shows like 1071 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,009 S1: One Day or, uh, you know, three-body problem have. So 1072 00:53:27,010 --> 00:53:29,890 S1: I'm interested. Do you think this will hit for for people? 1073 00:53:30,070 --> 00:53:33,610 S2: Yeah, I think maybe like it'll be a moderate success, 1074 00:53:33,610 --> 00:53:35,440 S2: like there's enough, you know, we are in a bit 1075 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,840 S2: of a trend of like, I guess, like eat the 1076 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,840 S2: rich movies and TV shows. You say marketed as, like, 1077 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,330 S2: you know, if they always tap into the Saltburn hype 1078 00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:45,430 S2: and market it like that. Also, I think Andrew Scott 1079 00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:47,320 S2: has had like a bit of a moment recently. People 1080 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,220 S2: love him, so like that could work. But yeah, I 1081 00:53:51,219 --> 00:53:52,990 S2: can't imagine it's going to be like sitting at number 1082 00:53:52,989 --> 00:53:54,820 S2: one and people will, you know, it's not going to 1083 00:53:54,820 --> 00:53:57,430 S2: be the country cadre of Netflix TV shows. 1084 00:53:57,790 --> 00:54:00,580 S1: Yeah, Netflix hasn't been like pushing it that hard, even 1085 00:54:00,580 --> 00:54:01,719 S1: though it's out this way. That hasn't been heaps of 1086 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,029 S1: buzz about it. So hopefully you've listened to it from 1087 00:54:04,030 --> 00:54:07,150 S1: this conversation and, uh, are going to give it a spin. 1088 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:13,300 S1: Dev Patel. Thomas. Yes. We've loved him since skins when 1089 00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:16,930 S1: he was playing little Anwar. We loved him in Slumdog Millionaire. 1090 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,880 S1: We loved him when he was playing an Australian and lion. 1091 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,700 S1: Still the best guy to do an Australian accent who's 1092 00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:24,339 S1: not Australian. We loved him even more when he moved 1093 00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:26,590 S1: to Adelaide and kind of became one of us, and 1094 00:54:26,590 --> 00:54:29,290 S1: recently he's been great in a couple of films The 1095 00:54:29,290 --> 00:54:33,130 S1: Personal History of David Copperfield and The Green Knight in particular. 1096 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,120 S1: Now he's back on the big screen with his debut 1097 00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:41,020 S1: as both writer and director in a film called Monkey Man. 1098 00:54:41,050 --> 00:54:42,370 S1: He stars in it as well. 1099 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,529 S13: When I was a boy, my mother used to tell 1100 00:54:49,530 --> 00:54:55,080 S13: me a story. Of a demon king and his army. 1101 00:54:56,770 --> 00:55:04,140 S13: They brought fire and terror to the land. Until they 1102 00:55:04,140 --> 00:55:08,270 S13: face the protector of the people. The white monkey. 1103 00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:19,149 S14: There you are. You are a beast. 1104 00:55:21,100 --> 00:55:25,660 S1: The film is a big, bold and very bonkers. I 1105 00:55:25,660 --> 00:55:28,239 S1: think it's fair to say move. It's an action movie. 1106 00:55:28,570 --> 00:55:31,239 S1: When the trailer dropped, it evoked a lot of John 1107 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,780 S1: Wick comparisons, but it's also clearly a homage to kung 1108 00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:37,960 S1: fu movies Bruce Lee, Jet Li Films, films like The Raid, 1109 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,050 S1: both of which are in turn very strong influences on 1110 00:55:41,050 --> 00:55:44,709 S1: the Wick franchise and of course, Bollywood as well. The 1111 00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:50,140 S1: story is also pretty wild. Patel plays a character just 1112 00:55:50,140 --> 00:55:53,140 S1: called kid, who, as a child, witnesses the death of 1113 00:55:53,140 --> 00:55:56,380 S1: his mother and the destruction of his village at the 1114 00:55:56,380 --> 00:56:02,050 S1: hands of corrupt cops, billionaire industrialists and religious extremists. So yeah, 1115 00:56:02,050 --> 00:56:04,960 S1: a lot going on. As an adult, he spends his 1116 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,859 S1: time wrestling, wearing a monkey face mask and working his 1117 00:56:08,860 --> 00:56:12,250 S1: way up the ranks of the Indian underworld, hoping to 1118 00:56:12,250 --> 00:56:15,490 S1: exact revenge on the people who destroyed his childhood. It's 1119 00:56:15,489 --> 00:56:18,160 S1: pretty clear in its politics the film and feels like 1120 00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,850 S1: a pretty sharp, direct and urgent intervention into what is 1121 00:56:21,850 --> 00:56:26,260 S1: going on in contemporary India right now with religious sectarianism. 1122 00:56:26,260 --> 00:56:29,770 S1: The bad guys are an alliance between Hindu nationalists and 1123 00:56:29,770 --> 00:56:33,520 S1: corrupt police. There is real footage of very violent events 1124 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,790 S1: that have taken place in India recently mixed into the film. 1125 00:56:36,790 --> 00:56:38,680 S1: There is a character who I think is a clear 1126 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,100 S1: stand in for the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra modi. It's 1127 00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:45,370 S1: a really big move, a big swing from a first 1128 00:56:45,370 --> 00:56:49,390 S1: time director, even one with the experience in acting as 1129 00:56:49,390 --> 00:56:52,180 S1: dev has. Thomas, what did you make of Monkey Man? 1130 00:56:52,180 --> 00:56:54,220 S2: Yeah, I liked it. I mean, there was a lot 1131 00:56:54,250 --> 00:56:59,920 S2: going on. It felt like, um, you know, dev as 1132 00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:02,170 S2: a first time director, had like a bunch of ideas 1133 00:57:02,170 --> 00:57:05,560 S2: and most, most of them really good. But no one 1134 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,830 S2: was like, hey, man, why don't we just do, like, 50% 1135 00:57:08,830 --> 00:57:11,110 S2: of those and then keep the rest for like, Monkey 1136 00:57:11,110 --> 00:57:13,090 S2: Man two or your next movie or whatever? 1137 00:57:13,450 --> 00:57:15,250 S1: Yeah, he's seen a lot of movies and he's like, 1138 00:57:15,250 --> 00:57:16,870 S1: I want to do what they did in that movie, 1139 00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:18,280 S1: in this movie a bunch of times. 1140 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,770 S2: Yeah. And so like, I think that then trickles down 1141 00:57:20,770 --> 00:57:22,450 S2: and has like a strange effect on the tone of 1142 00:57:22,450 --> 00:57:25,510 S2: the film because like you mentioned John Wick, at times 1143 00:57:25,510 --> 00:57:27,490 S2: this felt like a John Wick, like, you know, high 1144 00:57:27,490 --> 00:57:30,700 S2: concept action film. Then it became something else, then it 1145 00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:33,520 S2: became something else. And when you change, like the speed 1146 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,950 S2: and tone so much, you do then lose a bit 1147 00:57:35,950 --> 00:57:39,280 S2: of the like, like pacing of the film. And yeah, 1148 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,380 S2: I guess that was it. It was more just like, ah, 1149 00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:44,169 S2: for someone that's obviously so talented, you can see all 1150 00:57:44,170 --> 00:57:46,570 S2: the potential. But yeah, it was maybe just he needed 1151 00:57:46,570 --> 00:57:48,430 S2: someone to say no to him a few more times. 1152 00:57:48,430 --> 00:57:51,520 S1: Yeah. I think maybe it also lands differently with the 1153 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,370 S1: knowledge you have about what the film is trying to interrogate. 1154 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,130 S1: There was this review, I think it was in The Guardian, uh, 1155 00:57:57,130 --> 00:57:59,320 S1: after it premiered at South by Southwest, that actually found 1156 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,900 S1: a bit frustrating. It was the review was saying, you know, 1157 00:58:01,900 --> 00:58:03,520 S1: like I'm telling you, the plot, but also I didn't 1158 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,950 S1: really understand any of that, but I borrowed it all 1159 00:58:05,950 --> 00:58:08,410 S1: from the notes that the studio gave me something to 1160 00:58:08,410 --> 00:58:10,780 S1: do with like Hindu nationalism, blah, blah, blah. And maybe 1161 00:58:10,780 --> 00:58:13,270 S1: it's not the reviewers fault. Maybe it's more reflection on 1162 00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:16,990 S1: those of us in the West and the lack of coverage, 1163 00:58:16,990 --> 00:58:20,680 S1: mainstream coverage, or just political focus here on what has 1164 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,720 S1: been happening in India for the last few years. India 1165 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,440 S1: is a very, very, very big country with with a very, 1166 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,620 S1: very big history. And there's a giant Indian diaspora in 1167 00:58:29,620 --> 00:58:32,650 S1: in countries like Australia, the UK, the US that are 1168 00:58:32,650 --> 00:58:37,450 S1: being impacted by the very, very sad religious sectarianism that 1169 00:58:37,450 --> 00:58:40,480 S1: is going on and the the extremism being espoused by 1170 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,540 S1: the Modi government. So I guess it's not anyone's fault 1171 00:58:43,540 --> 00:58:46,330 S1: for not knowing about it. I think the more you 1172 00:58:46,330 --> 00:58:49,630 S1: understand what he's grappling with, the more the movie hits. 1173 00:58:49,630 --> 00:58:53,260 S1: It's something that affects me and my family and a 1174 00:58:53,260 --> 00:58:55,900 S1: lot of people we know. And I guess I sat 1175 00:58:55,900 --> 00:58:57,729 S1: at the center of the Venn diagram for this movie 1176 00:58:57,730 --> 00:59:00,070 S1: is someone who loves John Wick, but is like, what if? 1177 00:59:00,070 --> 00:59:03,190 S1: Instead of just like, random Russian gangsters, the focus was 1178 00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:06,130 S1: right wing Hindu extremists? I'm like, sign me up, man. 1179 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,770 S1: So you've taken that idea out of my head. Do 1180 00:59:08,770 --> 00:59:10,810 S1: you think that's a part of it as well? 1181 00:59:10,930 --> 00:59:12,670 S2: Yeah, for sure. I think there is like a level 1182 00:59:12,670 --> 00:59:14,890 S2: of disconnect there, but that, I mean, for me, I 1183 00:59:14,890 --> 00:59:16,960 S2: was on board with all that. Um, yeah. Right. I 1184 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:18,970 S2: think it was more just. Yeah, it was, it was, 1185 00:59:18,970 --> 00:59:22,240 S2: it was just a bit like. Hard to get into 1186 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,400 S2: the rhythm of the film when it changed so much. 1187 00:59:24,610 --> 00:59:26,560 S2: But yeah, I think there is definitely like an element 1188 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,740 S2: of that. People will just go and, you know, they'll 1189 00:59:29,830 --> 00:59:31,690 S2: watch the trailer, they'll think this is an action movie. 1190 00:59:31,690 --> 00:59:34,420 S2: And then suddenly when you're being sold this kind of 1191 00:59:34,420 --> 00:59:37,240 S2: like puppet figure and then they just like won't engage 1192 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,670 S2: with that, like they won't understand what's going on. And that, 1193 00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:42,190 S2: you know, is kind of an indictment on on audiences generally. 1194 00:59:42,190 --> 00:59:44,380 S2: We need now to be just like hand fed stuff. 1195 00:59:44,380 --> 00:59:46,960 S2: And if it requires any level of like prior research 1196 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,600 S2: or prior knowledge, then like unfortunately there's going to be 1197 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,110 S2: like a drop off. But yeah, I think like my 1198 00:59:53,110 --> 00:59:54,670 S2: biggest takeaway from the film, I think was like walking 1199 00:59:54,670 --> 00:59:56,770 S2: away and being like, fuck, I feel like Dev Patel 1200 00:59:56,770 --> 01:00:00,010 S2: is like on a path now. Like, you can see 1201 01:00:00,010 --> 01:00:02,440 S2: that this guy is like such a talented actor and 1202 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,090 S2: and even to act in directing a film like that 1203 01:00:04,090 --> 01:00:07,090 S2: where he's in basically every single scene, um, and we've 1204 01:00:07,090 --> 01:00:09,700 S2: seen that he has like, serious acting chops. But yeah, 1205 01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:12,070 S2: I mean, like, I think it's definitely the first step 1206 01:00:12,070 --> 01:00:14,890 S2: of Dev Patel being like possibly one of the most important, 1207 01:00:14,890 --> 01:00:17,200 S2: like creators out there in the next like ten, 15 years. 1208 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,970 S1: I really agree with that. I really agree with that. Like, 1209 01:00:18,970 --> 01:00:21,430 S1: I think, you know, you said maybe let's pull back 50% 1210 01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:23,440 S1: for maybe more like maybe 15 or 20%. I just 1211 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,240 S1: think it was a little bit too much. Okay. I've 1212 01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:26,860 S1: done this kind of thing. Now, what if I showed 1213 01:00:26,860 --> 01:00:29,710 S1: you someone in a car crash as a first person perspective? 1214 01:00:29,710 --> 01:00:31,780 S1: And what if I did a little kind of like, 1215 01:00:31,780 --> 01:00:34,690 S1: art film thing and it's just a little bit too much? 1216 01:00:34,690 --> 01:00:37,060 S1: But obviously he's got great knowledge of film. He's got 1217 01:00:37,060 --> 01:00:39,370 S1: a great love for the history of cinema. He knows 1218 01:00:39,370 --> 01:00:41,560 S1: how to, like, not just pay homage to that, but 1219 01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,330 S1: bring it together in a way that when it works, 1220 01:00:43,330 --> 01:00:47,110 S1: it works brilliantly. And if this is his first film 1221 01:00:47,110 --> 01:00:51,130 S1: and he's choosing to take on something as big as this, 1222 01:00:51,130 --> 01:00:55,300 S1: and he's done what is largely a pretty fun, pretty 1223 01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:58,600 S1: high octane, thrilling sort of a film if he gets 1224 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,070 S1: to do it again, and I really hope he does, 1225 01:01:00,070 --> 01:01:02,440 S1: I can just see him getting better and better from here. 1226 01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,320 S1: The the actual journey of this film coming to screens 1227 01:01:05,350 --> 01:01:08,020 S1: has been pretty complicated, so I'm glad it is. It 1228 01:01:08,020 --> 01:01:11,110 S1: was originally acquired by Netflix in 2021, when I think 1229 01:01:11,110 --> 01:01:13,990 S1: it finished filming and they didn't release it. There are 1230 01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:17,230 S1: unconfirmed reports that that's because they were worried about it 1231 01:01:17,230 --> 01:01:21,190 S1: being perceived as anti Modi and generating a backlash in India. Thankfully, 1232 01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:24,340 S1: Jordan Peele get out and nope fame saw it and 1233 01:01:24,340 --> 01:01:27,490 S1: decided to acquire it, which is why it's being distributed 1234 01:01:27,490 --> 01:01:30,580 S1: by universal and it's in theaters now. There's been some changes. 1235 01:01:30,580 --> 01:01:33,340 S1: We don't really know what the Netflix version look like 1236 01:01:33,340 --> 01:01:36,010 S1: and how much it's been changed since then. We do 1237 01:01:36,010 --> 01:01:38,740 S1: know that there's a new score. Um, Jed Chazelle, who's 1238 01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:42,460 S1: an Australian musician of the metal fame. Uh, he has 1239 01:01:42,460 --> 01:01:44,860 S1: done the new score, which I think is pretty great. Um, 1240 01:01:44,860 --> 01:01:47,260 S1: I'm glad that it's been sort of salvaged. I'm glad 1241 01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:49,690 S1: it's getting a theatrical release. There's a bit of marketing 1242 01:01:49,690 --> 01:01:51,700 S1: behind it, and I think it could do well, just 1243 01:01:51,700 --> 01:01:53,740 S1: if people want to see the action stuff, even if 1244 01:01:53,740 --> 01:01:57,400 S1: they don't think it all held together, I hope it 1245 01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,710 S1: does well enough that dev gets another go. 1246 01:02:00,070 --> 01:02:01,750 S2: Yeah. Me too. And like, it is so good. It's 1247 01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:06,010 S2: getting like a theatrical release and I do. I suspect that, 1248 01:02:06,010 --> 01:02:08,470 S2: like the Jon weakness of it will get a lot 1249 01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:10,780 S2: of people in. And even just like talking to people 1250 01:02:10,780 --> 01:02:13,270 S2: now and asking about their awareness of the film, people 1251 01:02:13,330 --> 01:02:14,800 S2: being like, oh yeah, like Dev Patel is doing an 1252 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,439 S2: action movie. So like even just if they get like 1253 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,170 S2: sucked in off that. And that being said, like the 1254 01:02:20,170 --> 01:02:23,410 S2: action sequences in this are pretty fucking amazing. Like the 1255 01:02:23,410 --> 01:02:25,930 S2: choreography is great. And they're also like, you know, some 1256 01:02:25,930 --> 01:02:28,180 S2: of them are very, very graphic. It's got that Jon 1257 01:02:28,180 --> 01:02:30,880 S2: weakness to it where it's like the almost like the 1258 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,130 S2: level of creativity of how people can hurt one another 1259 01:02:33,130 --> 01:02:35,830 S2: is so impressive, uh, that you get very much sucked 1260 01:02:35,830 --> 01:02:37,750 S2: into it. So some of the ways some of the 1261 01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:39,850 S2: injuries in this film and, uh, a lot. 1262 01:02:39,850 --> 01:02:41,830 S1: I know, and we watched it in the screening together, 1263 01:02:41,830 --> 01:02:44,710 S1: and that was like collective audience like, ah, and then 1264 01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:46,990 S1: laughter and stuff. It was really fun, one to watch 1265 01:02:46,990 --> 01:02:47,380 S1: with a group. 1266 01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:48,640 S2: Of people, actually. Yeah. It was a really good crowd 1267 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,580 S2: engagement because like, yeah, some of the injuries are particularly gruesome. 1268 01:02:51,580 --> 01:02:53,439 S2: So I just know that going in. But um, definitely 1269 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:54,730 S2: worth seeing on the big screen. 1270 01:02:54,730 --> 01:02:57,760 S1: So in my conversation with dev, he was really eager 1271 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,790 S1: to point out that the politics of this film, which 1272 01:03:00,790 --> 01:03:03,610 S1: I thought was interesting, I asked him about it directly. 1273 01:03:03,820 --> 01:03:06,310 S1: He also made the point that it is not just 1274 01:03:06,310 --> 01:03:08,200 S1: about India, like obviously it's set in India and I'm 1275 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,300 S1: using that to talk about it, but I'm talking about 1276 01:03:10,300 --> 01:03:14,110 S1: extremism across the UK, across the US, all over the world, 1277 01:03:14,110 --> 01:03:16,060 S1: which I think is interesting. He wants the movie to 1278 01:03:16,060 --> 01:03:18,640 S1: not just be seen as a story of India, but 1279 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,090 S1: to resonate with Western audiences who watch it as well. 1280 01:03:22,090 --> 01:03:24,370 S1: And yeah, I think I said this already, but if 1281 01:03:24,370 --> 01:03:27,640 S1: more first time directors were willing to grapple with big 1282 01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,730 S1: ideas like that in in a genre format, we'd be 1283 01:03:30,730 --> 01:03:33,640 S1: better off as consumers, as fans of of film. 1284 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,460 S2: If Beyonce has taught us anything about genre, it's that 1285 01:03:36,460 --> 01:03:39,310 S2: it remains undefined and we should be playing with it 1286 01:03:39,310 --> 01:03:39,850 S2: all the time. 1287 01:03:39,850 --> 01:03:43,510 S1: So that's that's it. That's the Beyonce country. Carter and 1288 01:03:43,630 --> 01:03:47,050 S1: Patel's monkey man in conversation with one another. That's it 1289 01:03:47,050 --> 01:03:49,330 S1: for us. Stick around to listen to my chat with 1290 01:03:49,330 --> 01:03:53,110 S1: dev about making Monkey Man his his influences, and why 1291 01:03:53,110 --> 01:03:55,420 S1: he wanted to tell the story that's coming up. But Thomas, 1292 01:03:55,420 --> 01:03:56,470 S1: thank you so much. 1293 01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:57,250 S2: Pleasure as always. 1294 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,810 S1: Welcome to the show! Congrats on Monkey Man and the 1295 01:04:05,810 --> 01:04:07,910 S1: incredible response it's received so far. 1296 01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:09,530 S15: Wow man. Thank you, thank you. 1297 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,690 S1: Can you talk to me a little bit about the 1298 01:04:11,690 --> 01:04:14,479 S1: genesis of this project? I'm keen to know how long 1299 01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,030 S1: you've been wanting to write and direct, and why you 1300 01:04:17,030 --> 01:04:19,400 S1: decided to tell this story as your first one. 1301 01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:24,890 S15: Um, it's been over ten years, man, and I, you know, 1302 01:04:25,220 --> 01:04:28,610 S15: just as a consumer of action cinema as a, as 1303 01:04:28,610 --> 01:04:32,420 S15: a as a humble fan of the genre, I wanted 1304 01:04:32,420 --> 01:04:37,220 S15: I wanted more, I wanted more representation, I wanted I 1305 01:04:37,220 --> 01:04:40,790 S15: want a deeper story sometimes, you know, I, you know, 1306 01:04:40,790 --> 01:04:44,480 S15: I think it can hold more. And my grandfather used 1307 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,810 S15: to tell me these stories from the the Indian mythologies 1308 01:04:47,810 --> 01:04:50,630 S15: of this character called Hanuman, that totally just filled my 1309 01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:54,140 S15: mind with all this amazing imagery. And, um, the more 1310 01:04:54,140 --> 01:04:56,360 S15: I traveled and worked in India, I realized I could, like, 1311 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,420 S15: take some of these deeper issues of, you know, the 1312 01:04:59,420 --> 01:05:03,890 S15: caste system, you know, violence against women, religion, politics, all 1313 01:05:03,890 --> 01:05:06,620 S15: of that, and kind of fuse it into the action 1314 01:05:06,620 --> 01:05:10,400 S15: genre to create something, you know, hopefully quite unique. Um, 1315 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,220 S15: so that was kind of the inception. You know, I've 1316 01:05:13,220 --> 01:05:16,220 S15: just loved this action films for a really long time. 1317 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,490 S1: I think your passion for those films is pretty is 1318 01:05:19,490 --> 01:05:21,860 S1: pretty clear from like a lot of the homages and 1319 01:05:21,860 --> 01:05:24,230 S1: and references in the movie. I know from the second 1320 01:05:24,260 --> 01:05:27,950 S1: the trailer dropped. Everyone started talking about John Wick. I 1321 01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:31,490 S1: feel like the movie Monkey Man itself acknowledges that without 1322 01:05:31,490 --> 01:05:34,040 S1: spoiling it, like pretty straight up. But I also know 1323 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,860 S1: that you're a big fan of Bruce Lee Bollywood. A 1324 01:05:36,860 --> 01:05:39,800 S1: lot of Monkey Man reminded me of movies like The Raid, 1325 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,830 S1: the 2011 Indonesian action film. Can you talk to me 1326 01:05:42,830 --> 01:05:45,709 S1: a bit about the cinema that you love and and 1327 01:05:45,710 --> 01:05:48,410 S1: how Monkey Man fits in to that? Sort of. I mean, I. 1328 01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,890 S15: Got into acting, watching Bruce Lee, you know, way past 1329 01:05:51,890 --> 01:05:55,790 S15: my bedtime, seeing an Asian man with so much charisma 1330 01:05:55,820 --> 01:05:58,970 S15: that got me into cinema. And then it was like, 1331 01:05:58,970 --> 01:06:04,070 S15: you know, Bruce, Jackie, Donnie and Jerry Lee, Sammo, you know, 1332 01:06:04,070 --> 01:06:08,450 S15: then the Raid films, um, and obviously Arnold Schwarzenegger and 1333 01:06:08,690 --> 01:06:12,320 S15: all those kind of American action stars. And then once 1334 01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,870 S15: I got introduced to Korean cinema, you know, everything from 1335 01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:18,200 S15: Oldboy to a bittersweet Life to I Saw the Devil 1336 01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:23,010 S15: and Man from nowhere. List goes on. Those guys for 1337 01:06:23,010 --> 01:06:26,010 S15: me do it better than anyone, you know, it's it's ultraviolent, 1338 01:06:26,010 --> 01:06:29,700 S15: it's sexy, and they're not afraid to kind of double 1339 01:06:29,700 --> 01:06:32,460 S15: triple down on the pathos and the emotion and the 1340 01:06:32,460 --> 01:06:35,730 S15: kind of social kind of commentary through their movies. Those 1341 01:06:35,730 --> 01:06:39,180 S15: were huge influences for me, you know, and, you know, 1342 01:06:39,180 --> 01:06:41,760 S15: Bollywood cinema, you know, my grandparents, every time I'd go 1343 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,130 S15: over there would be a Bollywood film playing or, you know, 1344 01:06:44,130 --> 01:06:46,530 S15: this actor, Shahrukh Khan, who I love, he did this film. 1345 01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:48,360 S1: Yeah. Can relate, can relate to that my friend. 1346 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,670 S15: Yeah, yeah. He did a phone call and I don't, 1347 01:06:50,670 --> 01:06:52,620 S15: I don't remember the plot too well. But I remember 1348 01:06:52,620 --> 01:06:55,260 S15: as a kid watching it and he had these bloodshot 1349 01:06:55,260 --> 01:06:57,270 S15: eyes and he was holding this bloody sword and he 1350 01:06:57,270 --> 01:06:59,460 S15: was covered in sweat. And I was just like, yeah, 1351 01:06:59,460 --> 01:07:01,980 S15: it's just it's a cocktail of all those things. 1352 01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:05,160 S1: As well as all of those kinds of films. You 1353 01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,220 S1: as an actor, work with a pretty incredible roll call 1354 01:07:08,220 --> 01:07:12,180 S1: of filmmakers Danny Boyle, Michael Winterbottom, David Lowery, Wes Anderson 1355 01:07:12,180 --> 01:07:16,410 S1: most recently, did their approaches to filmmaking influence you at 1356 01:07:16,410 --> 01:07:19,260 S1: all when you were making your first picture? 1357 01:07:19,260 --> 01:07:23,550 S15: Totally. Um, you know, having never been to an acting 1358 01:07:23,550 --> 01:07:27,030 S15: school or a or a filmmaking class in my life, 1359 01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:31,650 S15: my whole career has been, you know, not sitting in 1360 01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:33,990 S15: a trailer, being on set and just being so excited 1361 01:07:33,990 --> 01:07:39,660 S15: to watch these filmmakers, you know, be total dawns on set. 1362 01:07:39,660 --> 01:07:42,330 S15: And like, you know, everyone has such a unique approach. 1363 01:07:42,330 --> 01:07:45,630 S15: You know, whether the ferocity of Danny Boyle and how 1364 01:07:45,630 --> 01:07:49,140 S15: he how he directs his films and the ingenuity with 1365 01:07:49,140 --> 01:07:51,180 S15: how he moves the camera and where he puts it 1366 01:07:51,180 --> 01:07:55,890 S15: to someone like David Lowery, who, you know, has such 1367 01:07:55,890 --> 01:07:58,890 S15: a beautiful, soulful approach to the way he makes his movies, 1368 01:07:58,890 --> 01:08:02,550 S15: and a spiritual kind of like dealing with time and, and, 1369 01:08:02,550 --> 01:08:07,170 S15: and Wes compositionally, you know, all of those guys kind of, 1370 01:08:07,170 --> 01:08:13,860 S15: I think subliminally have kind of infected my. Taste and process. 1371 01:08:14,190 --> 01:08:15,870 S1: It's really interesting to hear you talk about that, because 1372 01:08:15,870 --> 01:08:18,180 S1: I feel like there are so many, so many different 1373 01:08:18,180 --> 01:08:20,519 S1: swings you're taking with with Monkey Man. There are these 1374 01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,060 S1: frenetic kind of first person perspectives in the middle of action, 1375 01:08:24,060 --> 01:08:26,340 S1: and then you sort of zoom out and almost sort 1376 01:08:26,340 --> 01:08:30,090 S1: of like video art moments as well. It kind of 1377 01:08:30,090 --> 01:08:33,689 S1: seems like you're trying to either just express a lot 1378 01:08:33,689 --> 01:08:36,660 S1: of what you've enjoyed about cinema in the past, or 1379 01:08:36,660 --> 01:08:39,300 S1: just try and do so much in one film. 1380 01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,440 S15: Yeah, it's it's a bit of that. Having done martial 1381 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,610 S15: arts my whole life, I feel like and being an actor, 1382 01:08:47,610 --> 01:08:49,710 S15: I just wanted to get the audience as close to 1383 01:08:49,710 --> 01:08:53,010 S15: being inside of the action as they could. You know, 1384 01:08:53,010 --> 01:08:56,310 S15: sometimes action is heavily, heavily reliant on being super wide 1385 01:08:56,310 --> 01:08:59,670 S15: and watching from afar, you know? Great. But, you know, 1386 01:08:59,939 --> 01:09:01,769 S15: I want it to be internal. I want it to 1387 01:09:01,770 --> 01:09:04,230 S15: be under the armpit of some of these collisions and 1388 01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:06,300 S15: and feel what it's like. You know, we have this 1389 01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:09,150 S15: swing shift camera, which is a lens put on a 1390 01:09:09,150 --> 01:09:11,880 S15: camera with bungee cord that actually can wobble. So when 1391 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,090 S15: you punch the the rig that we'd created, it would 1392 01:09:15,090 --> 01:09:19,410 S15: wobble and shake and feel like concussion. And sometimes like 1393 01:09:19,410 --> 01:09:22,290 S15: that staircase scene, I went and reshot that with my 1394 01:09:22,290 --> 01:09:25,620 S15: own little canon camera. We didn't have a staircase. What 1395 01:09:25,620 --> 01:09:27,929 S15: I'd scripted, we couldn't shoot. We, you know, we're in 1396 01:09:27,930 --> 01:09:31,260 S15: a pandemic and we couldn't get a location, and so 1397 01:09:31,260 --> 01:09:34,589 S15: I couldn't physically get the camera wide enough to to 1398 01:09:34,590 --> 01:09:38,309 S15: cover the shot. So I ended up just strapping it 1399 01:09:38,310 --> 01:09:40,830 S15: to myself, and, and I was like, okay, how can 1400 01:09:40,860 --> 01:09:45,660 S15: we through obstacles, find opportunities. And so it's a scrappy 1401 01:09:45,660 --> 01:09:48,000 S15: way of telling a story, but it's, you know, by 1402 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:49,740 S15: any means necessary approach. 1403 01:09:49,740 --> 01:09:51,330 S1: I love those details. I feel like I could talk 1404 01:09:51,330 --> 01:09:53,520 S1: to you about cameras for a lot longer, but there 1405 01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,439 S1: are other things people probably want to hear about. I mean, 1406 01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:59,849 S1: other than other than the extremely well choreographed action and 1407 01:09:59,850 --> 01:10:02,730 S1: the genuinely thrilling kind of nature of the movie, what 1408 01:10:02,729 --> 01:10:05,550 S1: I appreciated, I think probably most about the film, was 1409 01:10:05,550 --> 01:10:09,000 S1: how the story addresses head on the politics of, I guess, 1410 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,000 S1: modern India, but so much of the world as well, 1411 01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,610 S1: in a very layered and kind of complex way. You're 1412 01:10:14,610 --> 01:10:18,389 S1: directly addressing the rise of Hindu nationalism and the sectarian 1413 01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:21,479 S1: conflicts that that are existing there. But at the same time, 1414 01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:23,940 S1: you're not letting anyone off the hook. There are corrupt politicians. 1415 01:10:23,939 --> 01:10:28,530 S1: There are politicians who are stooges of billionaire industrialists. There's 1416 01:10:28,530 --> 01:10:32,430 S1: corrupt police. Is that dynamic the one that you see 1417 01:10:32,430 --> 01:10:34,740 S1: operating in India right now? The story that you're sort 1418 01:10:34,740 --> 01:10:35,490 S1: of telling on the. 1419 01:10:35,490 --> 01:10:38,160 S15: Screen, like you quite, quite rightly said, it's it's a 1420 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,820 S15: universal issue. It just happens to be set in India. But, 1421 01:10:41,820 --> 01:10:44,190 S15: you know, I think we're all the underdogs of our 1422 01:10:44,189 --> 01:10:46,830 S15: own story. You know, everyone can relate to that journey 1423 01:10:46,830 --> 01:10:49,559 S15: of like of that. And for me, I wanted to 1424 01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,380 S15: tell a revenge story about faith. You know, how it 1425 01:10:52,380 --> 01:10:57,360 S15: can be manipulated, weaponized, you know, corrupted and, and and 1426 01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:59,700 S15: how you can mobilize a large mass of people and 1427 01:10:59,700 --> 01:11:02,550 S15: kind of touch on raw nerves with that subject matter. 1428 01:11:02,550 --> 01:11:05,160 S15: At the same time, I wanted to, you know, show 1429 01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:07,379 S15: the beauty of that culture. You know, how, you know, 1430 01:11:07,380 --> 01:11:10,410 S15: an uneducated child in a in a forest can look 1431 01:11:10,410 --> 01:11:15,130 S15: at an iconography of Hanuman standing for good and. And 1432 01:11:15,130 --> 01:11:18,849 S15: be inspired by that and don a rubber mask and and, 1433 01:11:18,850 --> 01:11:22,240 S15: you know, you're seeing these things play out. I mean, 1434 01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:26,259 S15: police brutality, you know, um, you know, religion seeping its 1435 01:11:26,260 --> 01:11:29,710 S15: way into politics, you know, fear mongering amongst politics, you know, 1436 01:11:29,710 --> 01:11:33,130 S15: all of those things, you know, violence against women. You know, 1437 01:11:33,130 --> 01:11:36,040 S15: that's not just happening in India, that's happening everywhere in 1438 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:40,269 S15: the world, unfortunately, and sadly, it's more topical than ever 1439 01:11:40,270 --> 01:11:41,110 S15: right now. 1440 01:11:41,380 --> 01:11:43,930 S1: There was an early review of the film, I think, 1441 01:11:43,930 --> 01:11:46,720 S1: out of South By that said that look, the film 1442 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,350 S1: is pretty complicated if you're an average Hollywood goer, and 1443 01:11:50,350 --> 01:11:53,110 S1: the reviewer said they needed the studio notes to make 1444 01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:56,769 S1: sense of the political themes personally, I mean, that felt 1445 01:11:56,770 --> 01:11:59,320 S1: a little bit lazy to me. We can grapple with 1446 01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,780 S1: so many weird and absurd, like, I watched The Green Night, 1447 01:12:01,780 --> 01:12:03,939 S1: and I don't need to be an expert on the 1448 01:12:03,939 --> 01:12:06,130 S1: history of King Arthur and stuff, but do you think 1449 01:12:06,130 --> 01:12:08,860 S1: that that sort of speaks to perhaps a lack of 1450 01:12:08,860 --> 01:12:13,030 S1: how frequently Hollywood, in particular, delves into stories that are 1451 01:12:13,030 --> 01:12:16,150 S1: outside of. Yeah, what? America, basically. 1452 01:12:16,150 --> 01:12:18,820 S15: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, yeah. This is not a 1453 01:12:18,820 --> 01:12:21,730 S15: TikTok video, man. You know, like, I feel like we're 1454 01:12:21,729 --> 01:12:26,590 S15: trying we're cinema is for me about, um, it's sensory 1455 01:12:26,590 --> 01:12:29,950 S15: and it's emotive and, um, you know, coming at it 1456 01:12:29,950 --> 01:12:32,770 S15: from an actor's perspective. Like, for me, it's like, you know. 1457 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:38,059 S15: For me. Also, just personally, I can listen to the 1458 01:12:38,060 --> 01:12:41,000 S15: same artist and the same song 100 times over and 1459 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,429 S15: not remember the lyrics, but I know how it makes 1460 01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:46,910 S15: me feel, you know? And that's what I want my 1461 01:12:46,910 --> 01:12:49,400 S15: movies to represent. If I'm going to direct, you know, 1462 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,160 S15: a film again, I want it to evoke a very 1463 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:56,870 S15: primal sensation, you know, this movie and, um, at the 1464 01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:59,059 S15: same time, I don't want it to just sit down 1465 01:12:59,060 --> 01:13:02,360 S15: and be a three hour lesson in politics, you know? 1466 01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:07,010 S15: So there are more meditative moments in the movie, and 1467 01:13:07,010 --> 01:13:11,540 S15: they're there to test your patience and make you wait 1468 01:13:11,780 --> 01:13:15,979 S15: on bated breath for the moments of explosive violence. And 1469 01:13:16,130 --> 01:13:18,229 S15: I have a cut of the movie where it's tighter 1470 01:13:18,229 --> 01:13:20,270 S15: and it's just more violent, and it kind of just 1471 01:13:20,270 --> 01:13:23,300 S15: it washes over you. It just becomes a kind of 1472 01:13:23,300 --> 01:13:26,810 S15: barrage of punches and kicks with no real kind of 1473 01:13:26,810 --> 01:13:29,540 S15: emotional tethering to it. So for me, it's like, it's 1474 01:13:29,540 --> 01:13:33,740 S15: that that odd cadence that I wanted to create with it. And, and, 1475 01:13:33,860 --> 01:13:37,189 S15: and delve into these kind of more spiritual realms of 1476 01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:42,469 S15: subplots and human psychology and Indian philosophy. And I think, um, 1477 01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,890 S15: that that's basically, you know, my intention with the film 1478 01:13:45,890 --> 01:13:48,200 S15: is to I want it to fit in the genre. 1479 01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:50,240 S15: I want it to tip its hat to the I 1480 01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,190 S15: want to, you know, we have a training sequence in 1481 01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:53,990 S15: there that I hope stands the test of time with 1482 01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:56,330 S15: some of the great ones, but it also has an 1483 01:13:56,330 --> 01:13:59,120 S15: amazing social commentary within it. But it's also just a 1484 01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:04,010 S15: badass musical piece or a performance piece of action. Either 1485 01:14:04,010 --> 01:14:06,710 S15: way you peel it, I think it holds up, you know? 1486 01:14:06,860 --> 01:14:10,400 S15: So yeah, it was challenging, but you're never going to 1487 01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:11,479 S15: win them all, I guess. 1488 01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,120 S1: Yeah, yeah, I know that you said that so much 1489 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:18,110 S1: of the film's themes and messages widely resonate across the 1490 01:14:18,110 --> 01:14:21,110 S1: world and makes total sense to me, but you also 1491 01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:24,110 S1: talked about wanting to evoke a particular response. And because 1492 01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:29,299 S1: the film is addressing pretty bluntly in sections, what's happening 1493 01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:31,939 S1: in in contemporary India right now, I wonder whether you 1494 01:14:31,939 --> 01:14:35,840 S1: have a intended or, you know, do you do you 1495 01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,900 S1: think about young Indians, perhaps in in the motherland or 1496 01:14:38,900 --> 01:14:41,720 S1: in the diaspora, watching this movie and thinking a little 1497 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,660 S1: bit hotter about what is actually going on in India 1498 01:14:44,660 --> 01:14:45,349 S1: at the moment. 1499 01:14:45,350 --> 01:14:47,870 S15: I mean, some of my best friends, you know, uh, 1500 01:14:47,870 --> 01:14:50,330 S15: people that I would consider my brothers, you know, that 1501 01:14:50,330 --> 01:14:53,630 S15: live in Mumbai and all over India. I have family 1502 01:14:53,630 --> 01:14:59,120 S15: members there. And I completely, you know, the kind of 1503 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,240 S15: when you particularly, you know, I, we just produced a 1504 01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:04,969 S15: documentary called To Kill a Tiger, which got nominated for 1505 01:15:04,970 --> 01:15:08,240 S15: an Oscar, and it was about a gang rape of 1506 01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,309 S15: a young teenage girl in a village and kind of 1507 01:15:10,310 --> 01:15:14,689 S15: the kind of the, the kind of mentality, the village 1508 01:15:14,689 --> 01:15:18,020 S15: mentality surrounding that incident, you know? And most of the 1509 01:15:18,020 --> 01:15:21,229 S15: villagers thought the right thing to do was to make 1510 01:15:21,229 --> 01:15:24,019 S15: the girl marry one of her attackers, because that would bring, 1511 01:15:24,260 --> 01:15:28,189 S15: you know, more honor to the situation. This stuff is 1512 01:15:28,189 --> 01:15:30,650 S15: prevalent there. If you look all the way back, you know, 1513 01:15:30,650 --> 01:15:34,160 S15: and you go and read the papers, this is so 1514 01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:38,510 S15: much corruption and the disparity is very prevalent. And also, 1515 01:15:38,510 --> 01:15:40,640 S15: you know, that was something I did want to touch 1516 01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,189 S15: on within the story. You know, there is a rage 1517 01:15:43,189 --> 01:15:46,460 S15: I felt when I was in India after what happened 1518 01:15:46,460 --> 01:15:50,150 S15: in Delhi, you know, to Nirbhaya, you know, my partner 1519 01:15:50,150 --> 01:15:52,550 S15: was an Indian girl at the time, born and raised 1520 01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:57,890 S15: in Mumbai. And the blistering rage that every man, woman 1521 01:15:57,890 --> 01:16:01,820 S15: and child the youth felt, that was what was kind 1522 01:16:01,820 --> 01:16:04,880 S15: of the catalyst for me of, of, you know, people 1523 01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:09,290 S15: like dev. I didn't know you were so angry, but, um, unfortunately, 1524 01:16:09,290 --> 01:16:12,200 S15: I knew a girl that I'd met, an Indian girl 1525 01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:16,040 S15: that actually got raped and killed. Um, her name was Monika. 1526 01:16:16,370 --> 01:16:19,849 S15: It made the papers out there. So there's not even 1527 01:16:19,850 --> 01:16:22,040 S15: a six degrees of separation with some of this stuff. 1528 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,710 S15: You know, it's all too close to home sometimes. 1529 01:16:25,729 --> 01:16:30,290 S1: Mhm. You mentioned the the Oscars. I'm sure you've seen 1530 01:16:30,290 --> 01:16:33,470 S1: the debate, the reaction to the speech. Jonathan Glazer, the 1531 01:16:33,470 --> 01:16:35,750 S1: director of the Zone of Interest, gave. I mean this 1532 01:16:35,750 --> 01:16:39,320 S1: movie is very political about something that's happening in India now. 1533 01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,690 S1: But I think like you said, it resonates about what's 1534 01:16:41,689 --> 01:16:43,850 S1: happened in the past, what happens in the future, which 1535 01:16:43,850 --> 01:16:47,210 S1: is sort of what Glazer was alluding to about his work. 1536 01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:50,059 S1: Are you worried at all about any kind of backlash 1537 01:16:50,060 --> 01:16:53,450 S1: to the themes, the ideas, the kinds of people you're 1538 01:16:53,450 --> 01:16:55,220 S1: addressing in in Monkey Man? 1539 01:16:56,100 --> 01:17:00,750 S15: I mean, I made the film, uh, with the best intentions, 1540 01:17:00,750 --> 01:17:04,320 S15: you know, and I made it as a celebration of 1541 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,519 S15: the underdog, and I. I feel like it really celebrates 1542 01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,910 S15: so much of the culture and the country. Um, but again, like, 1543 01:17:11,910 --> 01:17:13,980 S15: I didn't want to make a sort of tourism video 1544 01:17:13,979 --> 01:17:17,010 S15: or something, you know? Uh, and I wanted to make 1545 01:17:17,010 --> 01:17:20,400 S15: a film that had a real soul and was grounded 1546 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:25,250 S15: in real. Plight and trauma and pain and have a 1547 01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:28,490 S15: sort of social resonance, you know, and the reason I 1548 01:17:28,490 --> 01:17:31,130 S15: made an action film and not a drama film that 1549 01:17:31,130 --> 01:17:33,860 S15: maybe if I was lucky, a hundred film people would 1550 01:17:33,860 --> 01:17:36,439 S15: see was for that very reason. I wanted to access 1551 01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,559 S15: an audience, the audience that played those video games that 1552 01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:41,900 S15: I don't. They'll watch those John Wick movies, the middle 1553 01:17:41,900 --> 01:17:47,090 S15: of America. Um, and I feel like I said, this is, um, 1554 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,910 S15: it happens to be set in India the same way 1555 01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:54,920 S15: parasite is set in Korea. But those themes and why 1556 01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:57,950 S15: that film did so well and is, is because the 1557 01:17:57,950 --> 01:18:01,580 S15: themes are universal. You know, this is this is not 1558 01:18:01,580 --> 01:18:06,080 S15: a lesson in politics and psychology in just in India. It's, 1559 01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:09,650 S15: it's it's it's global. It's a global thing. 1560 01:18:10,189 --> 01:18:12,620 S1: Dev, thank you so much for the film and your 1561 01:18:12,620 --> 01:18:14,960 S1: time talking about really appreciate good luck with with the 1562 01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:15,620 S1: rest of the release. 1563 01:18:15,620 --> 01:18:17,180 S15: Thank you so much. Take care. See you. 1564 01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:23,419 S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Chai Wong. 1565 01:18:23,450 --> 01:18:26,059 S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, 1566 01:18:26,060 --> 01:18:28,610 S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app. 1567 01:18:28,610 --> 01:18:31,010 S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with 1568 01:18:31,010 --> 01:18:33,920 S1: a friend! I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!