1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 S1: Hello and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. We're 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,359 S1: bringing you a very special extra episode of the podcast 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,680 S1: today because the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, had an opening 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,559 S1: in his diary and he's granted us an audience. So 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,400 S1: we're very happy to welcome the Prime Minister to the pod. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,640 S1: He's joining us from the Canberra studio just after Question 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,520 S1: Time on Thursday, along with our chief political correspondent, Paul Chuckle. Hello, Pam. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,640 S2: Good afternoon. Good to be with you. 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,040 S1: It's very nice to have you. Now tell me, are 10 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,800 S1: you the happiest man in Canberra right now with the coalition, 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,120 S1: your opposition at an all time nadir? 12 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,600 S2: Well, we're just doing what our job is, which is 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,880 S2: to try to address immediate pressures which are there on 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,479 S2: cost of living, to make sure that we deliver on 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,440 S2: the promises that we took to the 2025 election, but 16 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:55,560 S2: also to set Australia up in what is very challenging 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,400 S2: times globally as well. So I've been busy focused on that? 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,640 S2: The coalition or the former coalition or. I'm not sure 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,280 S2: what they are these days have been focused on themselves. 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,119 S1: Do you have any reflections on it, though? I mean, 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,720 S1: you you've been in the Labour Party at times when 22 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,720 S1: it's been in somewhat of disarray. And so you know 23 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,480 S1: what it's like to be inside that. Do you have 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,000 S1: any reflections from the other side? 25 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:25,120 S2: This is the worst I've seen. Uh, I was openly 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,840 S2: have said that the Labour Party decisions that we made 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,800 S2: in focusing on internals as one of the things that 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,840 S2: meant that we only lasted for two terms, even though 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,319 S2: I believe under both Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard, we 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,640 S2: delivered really important reforms in climate change and gender equity 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,320 S2: in the schools program in so many areas. We saw 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,880 S2: Australia through the global financial crisis, but because we were 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:03,250 S2: focused on Internals too much. Australians marked us down and 34 00:02:03,250 --> 00:02:07,290 S2: they'll mark down the liberals and the National Party. They 35 00:02:07,330 --> 00:02:11,410 S2: are doing that. The issue that I think is very 36 00:02:11,410 --> 00:02:14,610 S2: much there, though, is I can't see how they get 37 00:02:14,610 --> 00:02:18,930 S2: out of this spiral. You have had a very close 38 00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:24,130 S2: election of Sussan Ley over Angus Taylor just months ago, 39 00:02:24,450 --> 00:02:28,450 S2: and an undermining of the first woman to lead the 40 00:02:28,450 --> 00:02:32,250 S2: Liberal Party from day one. Angus Taylor has not done 41 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:36,090 S2: his job as shadow defence minister, has barely uttered a 42 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:40,850 S2: word in his portfolio. And what that will do is 43 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:46,610 S2: lead to an ongoing rolling maul, if you like, of 44 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:54,290 S2: dissent and division. And I can't see how they get 45 00:02:54,290 --> 00:02:56,570 S2: out of it. The liberals don't like each other, the 46 00:02:56,570 --> 00:02:59,290 S2: nationals don't like each other and the liberals don't like 47 00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:03,650 S2: the nationals. And as a result, One Nation have seen 48 00:03:03,650 --> 00:03:09,130 S2: their vote or their their polling at least increased substantially. 49 00:03:09,650 --> 00:03:12,649 S1: Mhm. I want to ask you about your visit this 50 00:03:12,650 --> 00:03:15,850 S1: week that you obviously hosted the Israeli president, Isaac Herzog 51 00:03:15,850 --> 00:03:19,410 S1: in Canberra. You've often said that Australians don't want overseas 52 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:23,250 S1: conflicts imported here onto our shores. That wasn't the intention 53 00:03:23,250 --> 00:03:25,970 S1: of the Herzog visit obviously, but it has been a 54 00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:27,570 S1: consequence of it hasn't it? 55 00:03:28,370 --> 00:03:34,570 S2: Oh, certainly. And many people, I think, have, uh, failed 56 00:03:34,570 --> 00:03:38,090 S2: to look at the context of this visit. And the 57 00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:41,730 S2: context of this visit is at 15, Australians had their 58 00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:47,530 S2: lives cut short when the terrorist atrocity occurred, driven by 59 00:03:47,530 --> 00:03:52,210 S2: anti-Semitism on December 14th. So President Herzog is not a 60 00:03:52,210 --> 00:03:55,970 S2: member of the Netanyahu government. He is the head of state, 61 00:03:55,970 --> 00:04:01,530 S2: the equivalent of Governor General Sam Mostyn. He came primarily 62 00:04:01,530 --> 00:04:08,410 S2: to give comfort to the those who are grieving directly 63 00:04:08,410 --> 00:04:10,690 S2: the families. The time that I spent with him was 64 00:04:10,690 --> 00:04:17,410 S2: primarily at the Chabad synagogue in Bondi, talking face to 65 00:04:17,450 --> 00:04:22,730 S2: face with people like young Matilda's mum and dad, her 66 00:04:22,730 --> 00:04:27,089 S2: sister talking with other people who are grieving as part 67 00:04:27,089 --> 00:04:31,930 S2: of what overwhelmingly was members of that very tight knit 68 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:36,810 S2: community led by Rabbi Ulman. So that was the purpose 69 00:04:36,810 --> 00:04:42,570 S2: of the visit. I understand that people feel very strongly 70 00:04:42,570 --> 00:04:46,930 S2: about the Middle East. Uh, and I understand that people 71 00:04:46,930 --> 00:04:51,370 S2: also have a right to express their views about the 72 00:04:51,370 --> 00:04:56,170 S2: Middle East and about what has occurred there, whether it 73 00:04:56,210 --> 00:05:01,810 S2: be the atrocity that occurred on October 7th, the largest 74 00:05:02,730 --> 00:05:07,690 S2: anti-Semitic loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust. Whether it 75 00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:12,650 S2: be the extraordinary number of innocent lives that have been 76 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:17,410 S2: lost in Gaza, the actions of the Israeli government that 77 00:05:17,410 --> 00:05:23,130 S2: my government has been critical of over humanitarian aid and 78 00:05:23,130 --> 00:05:27,970 S2: relief being able to be presented there, and certainly people 79 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:31,650 S2: have a right to express that, but they they need 80 00:05:31,650 --> 00:05:38,729 S2: to comprehend that sometimes the actions don't actually advance a cause. 81 00:05:38,770 --> 00:05:43,330 S2: They they undermine it. Uh, and, uh, that is what 82 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:47,650 S2: has occurred, I think, on a number of occasions. I 83 00:05:47,690 --> 00:05:52,570 S2: am concerned. I'm concerned that the great deal of hurt, uh, 84 00:05:52,850 --> 00:05:57,940 S2: which the Muslim community are feeling about the disruption of prayers. 85 00:05:58,540 --> 00:06:02,979 S2: I understand that, and I think that is something that 86 00:06:02,980 --> 00:06:06,500 S2: needs a full explanation. I know that that has caused 87 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,740 S2: a great deal of distress. I think one of the 88 00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:12,620 S2: things that we need to do is just have a 89 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:16,500 S2: little bit more empathy and kindness in the way that 90 00:06:16,500 --> 00:06:20,260 S2: we deal with issues, even issues that are difficult. You 91 00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:23,380 S2: can have a strong position on the Middle East and 92 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:28,780 S2: on justice for Palestinians, and I support a Palestinian state 93 00:06:28,820 --> 00:06:32,180 S2: being alongside the Israeli state, and my government is the 94 00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:36,460 S2: first government to recognise Palestine. That doesn't mean that you 95 00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:42,260 S2: can't empathise and understand that the Jewish community are really 96 00:06:42,260 --> 00:06:47,179 S2: hurting in Australia, not just those directly affected. And to 97 00:06:47,220 --> 00:06:52,380 S2: reach out as Australians in what has been a very 98 00:06:52,380 --> 00:06:53,500 S2: difficult time. 99 00:06:54,980 --> 00:06:58,140 S1: Nonetheless, if you're talking about advancing a cause and you 100 00:06:58,140 --> 00:07:01,060 S1: know actions towards advancing a cause, your overall cause of 101 00:07:01,060 --> 00:07:05,380 S1: social cohesion and advancing social cohesion, the president's visit hasn't 102 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:07,300 S1: really advanced social cohesion, has it? 103 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:15,020 S2: Well, the president's visit was about him providing comfort and 104 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:21,500 S2: solidarity with people who are grieving. Now people can have 105 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:26,180 S2: criticism of the actions of the Netanyahu government are entitled 106 00:07:26,180 --> 00:07:32,660 S2: to express that. The issue, though, of the president and 107 00:07:32,660 --> 00:07:36,900 S2: his visit here was about meeting with members of the 108 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:41,420 S2: community who are grieving. And one of the things I 109 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:45,460 S2: said in Parliament the other day is that in terms 110 00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:49,460 S2: of the broader issues, there are two paths in the 111 00:07:49,460 --> 00:07:55,340 S2: Middle East. One is the path possible path of peace 112 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:06,180 S2: and reconciliation and a settlement which gives Palestinian justice, but 113 00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:12,380 S2: also recognizes the right of Israel to exist within secure borders, 114 00:08:13,020 --> 00:08:19,700 S2: to have security assured its right to defend itself. Uh, 115 00:08:20,060 --> 00:08:24,900 S2: or the status quo, which is has been there for 116 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:30,300 S2: decades now of a very strong state of Israel, uh, 117 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:38,699 S2: with people, Palestinians, uh, being, uh, oppressed people, people who 118 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:45,900 S2: don't have any self-determination, people who suffer from poverty, uh, 119 00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:53,380 S2: people who are in an extraordinarily difficult position. And, you 120 00:08:53,860 --> 00:09:01,020 S2: need to have a path that improves that situation because 121 00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:09,100 S2: the the biggest victims are yes, Palestinians are suffering continue 122 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:12,579 S2: to suffer, but Israelis suffer as well, with a failure 123 00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:16,660 S2: to have security on a day to day basis because 124 00:09:16,660 --> 00:09:20,420 S2: of terrorist attacks, not just October 7th, but others as well. 125 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:26,900 S2: And how do you actually provide a solution? A solution must, 126 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:32,620 S2: by definition, include engagement with both Israelis and Palestinians. That's 127 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:36,980 S2: the only way that any conflict has ever been advanced. 128 00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:42,780 S2: And if conflict is allowed to continue, the biggest suffering 129 00:09:43,220 --> 00:09:49,460 S2: occurs to the less powerful group, not the more powerful. 130 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:57,030 S2: And that's why if people are serious about advancing the 131 00:09:58,550 --> 00:10:03,310 S2: life of Palestinians, they can't simply say the sort of 132 00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:08,070 S2: simplistic slogans, you know, from the River to the sea 133 00:10:08,110 --> 00:10:11,910 S2: is about one state, from Jordan River to the sea. 134 00:10:11,950 --> 00:10:16,870 S2: Israel isn't about to exist and not exist. Israel will 135 00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:24,190 S2: fight for its existence and that will mean ongoing conflict. 136 00:10:24,510 --> 00:10:28,990 S2: And that's why we actually genuinely need a two state solution, 137 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:33,230 S2: not a one state solution. And that's something that I 138 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:38,750 S2: advocate publicly. I say the same thing privately. I spoke 139 00:10:38,750 --> 00:10:45,750 S2: with Prime Minister Netanyahu before we recognized Palestine at the 140 00:10:45,870 --> 00:10:52,070 S2: United Nations. I gave him that courtesy and engaged very 141 00:10:52,070 --> 00:10:59,150 S2: directly in Australia's view about the need to move forward. 142 00:10:59,510 --> 00:11:03,110 S3: The New South Wales Premier, Chris Minns, has backed in 143 00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:06,350 S3: the police response and he's repeatedly emphasized that the protesters 144 00:11:06,350 --> 00:11:09,070 S3: were given an alternative site and made their way to 145 00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:11,470 S3: an area that was deemed illegal. How much blame do 146 00:11:11,470 --> 00:11:15,470 S3: you put at the feet of the demonstrators? And also, overall, 147 00:11:15,470 --> 00:11:17,590 S3: I know you mentioned one element of the police response there, 148 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:19,949 S3: but should there be a review into how heavy handed 149 00:11:19,950 --> 00:11:20,709 S3: police were? 150 00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:26,110 S2: Look, overwhelmingly, uh, you have to recognise as well there's 151 00:11:26,110 --> 00:11:29,910 S2: a difference. I draw a distinction between the leaders of 152 00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:34,790 S2: the demonstration, some of whom are part of far left parties, 153 00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:40,709 S2: such as, uh, Josh Lees. And overwhelmingly, a whole lot 154 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:43,270 S2: of people would have just gone because they care about 155 00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:48,709 S2: these issues and went along to peacefully express their views. 156 00:11:49,309 --> 00:11:54,310 S2: But the organizers were engaged with the police. They chose 157 00:11:54,309 --> 00:11:59,069 S2: not to come up with or participate in a sensible 158 00:11:59,070 --> 00:12:04,230 S2: way that would have ensured separation by having the meeting 159 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:09,510 S2: in Hyde Park and then walking marching to Belmore Park. Uh, 160 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:15,630 S2: it is beyond my comprehension why that would not be 161 00:12:15,630 --> 00:12:20,750 S2: taken up. That suggestion by the New South Wales Police. Now, 162 00:12:21,230 --> 00:12:26,150 S2: I also, as I've said, I want to see an explanation. 163 00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:29,070 S2: I'm very empathetic about the hurt that's being felt by 164 00:12:29,070 --> 00:12:31,950 S2: the Muslim community of prayers being disrupted. 165 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:34,030 S3: Yes. You're concern is specifically around that element. 166 00:12:34,030 --> 00:12:39,950 S2: I think that is, uh, an issue that needs addressing, uh, 167 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:44,310 S2: because I think people need to have a right to 168 00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:49,790 S2: practice their faith in peace. And, you know, some of 169 00:12:49,790 --> 00:12:52,150 S2: the footage. Of course, you need to be careful about 170 00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:56,110 S2: footage because you don't get to see the full picture. Um, 171 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:59,870 S2: but what I have seen is the truth is that 172 00:12:59,870 --> 00:13:04,590 S2: there has been a lot of disruption. Uh, there has been, uh. 173 00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:06,470 S3: Caused by the demonstrators. 174 00:13:06,590 --> 00:13:10,350 S2: Over a period of time. There are elements who've been 175 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:13,590 S2: involved in the campaign, including some of the action that's 176 00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:18,870 S2: taken place very directly, uh, in my office, uh, where 177 00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:25,189 S2: people have been stopped from getting assistance for Medicare, Social Security, 178 00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:28,190 S2: everything else. It's not a policy office. It's there to 179 00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:31,630 S2: help constituents in the inner west of Sydney. And people 180 00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:36,150 S2: have found that it's acceptable to put stink bombs into 181 00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:44,270 S2: the office, to destroy some of the office, break windows, graffiti, uh, 182 00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:50,199 S2: abused people, um, accused people trying to go to mass 183 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:55,360 S2: because it was in the grounds of the Anglican Church 184 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,479 S2: and part of their premises, and some of the behavior 185 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:07,960 S2: does nothing whatsoever to advance the Palestinian cause or anything else. 186 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,920 S1: Pam, you've sort of been on both sides of it, 187 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,640 S1: haven't you, because you obviously copped a lot of criticism 188 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,400 S1: for your handling of the massacre and of anti-Semitism in general. 189 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,000 S1: And that was, you know, really the narrative of the summer, 190 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,400 S1: which I'm sure was very personally difficult for you, among 191 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,440 S1: other things. And on the other side, as you say, 192 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,200 S1: in in your hometown, in your electorate in Marrickville, you've 193 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,920 S1: had huge sort of vociferous protests from the pro-Palestinian movement 194 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,960 S1: or elements thereof. Now that the worst of that sort 195 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,760 S1: of backlash from the summer is over, how do you 196 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,800 S1: reflect on on that period and what have you learned 197 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,800 S1: from that period. 198 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:52,440 S2: That you have to keep to a principle path. That 199 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:59,400 S2: part of what has occurred is because we haven't, as 200 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,720 S2: I said in Parliament the other day, viewed this as 201 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:08,120 S2: like a football team game where you're cheering on every 202 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,200 S2: tackle that South Sydney make and hoping that the other 203 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,960 S2: side drop the ball totally the whole way through. There 204 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,680 S2: needs to be nuance in this debate and there's too 205 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,640 S2: much anger. And one of the things that is very 206 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:32,920 S2: clear to me is that overwhelmingly, Australians don't want the 207 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,120 S2: conflict in the Middle East to continue. They want innocent 208 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,840 S2: people to be protected, whether they be Israelis or Palestinians, 209 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:45,359 S2: but they also don't want people to bring conflict here 210 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,160 S2: of of any of any sort. Uh, so we have 211 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,080 S2: taken a principled position. You're right. That's meant, uh, criticism 212 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,680 S2: that is completely contradictory. Uh, and that to me, uh, 213 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,200 S2: you know, you have to when you're in a position 214 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,600 S2: of responsibility, uh, you have to deal with that. But 215 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,080 S2: one of the things that I would say is that 216 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,400 S2: after other national tragedies have occurred, whether it be the 217 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,960 S2: Lindt cafe siege, Port Arthur, the Bali bombing, uh, there 218 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,240 S2: hasn't been a politicization of it. Here, there was an 219 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:35,680 S2: attempt to secure political advantage, uh, perceived within 24 hours. And, uh, that, 220 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,960 S2: to me, is entirely inappropriate. I can't conceive as a 221 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,360 S2: political leader of seeing an event such as that and going, okay, 222 00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:48,530 S2: what are the politics of this? It's a time for 223 00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:52,770 S2: national unity and for the country to come together. And 224 00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:58,930 S2: people chose very consciously. Some people chose. And I draw 225 00:16:58,930 --> 00:17:05,530 S2: a big distinction between the engagement of some political figures 226 00:17:06,050 --> 00:17:10,810 S2: and the response of the local community. I was sitting 227 00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:14,010 S2: in the lounge rooms of members of the Chabad community 228 00:17:14,010 --> 00:17:19,810 S2: in Bondi, the synagogue engaging with Rabbi Ulman, engaging with 229 00:17:19,810 --> 00:17:25,730 S2: many members of the community very directly, visiting people in hospital, engaging, 230 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:30,169 S2: having people in my office at Kirribilli House, having meetings, 231 00:17:30,170 --> 00:17:35,890 S2: having that engagement. And they were warm, generous and kind. 232 00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:39,290 S2: They weren't looking at pointing fingers. What they were looking 233 00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:43,090 S2: at was a community that was grieving. And that response 234 00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:48,090 S2: stood in stark contrast to some of the media coverage, 235 00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:51,330 S2: which wouldn't have perceived that at all. And I made 236 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:57,609 S2: a conscious decision to not take TV cameras with me 237 00:17:57,650 --> 00:18:02,130 S2: wherever I went, to look for this as an opportunity, 238 00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:05,450 S2: I saw this as a responsibility. Firstly, what did we 239 00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:07,850 S2: need to do to keep Australians safe? That was the 240 00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:12,570 S2: immediate issue that we had to do, not to engage 241 00:18:12,570 --> 00:18:16,690 S2: in the sort of politics that we saw, and we 242 00:18:16,690 --> 00:18:20,210 S2: did that. And I think that the engagement, some of 243 00:18:20,210 --> 00:18:25,770 S2: the political rhetoric that was ramped up came back on 244 00:18:25,810 --> 00:18:28,610 S2: the people who used it. And that's why we saw, 245 00:18:28,650 --> 00:18:32,929 S2: for example, after all of the rhetoric that occurred, the 246 00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:36,890 S2: National Party didn't vote for a single change. Did they 247 00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:42,649 S2: support not gun laws, not racial vilification, not hate speech laws? 248 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:47,450 S2: And the Liberal Party had, uh, issues quite clearly that 249 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:51,690 S2: we've seen with that. Uh, well, uh, we just engaged 250 00:18:51,690 --> 00:18:55,010 S2: from a principled point of view of what do we 251 00:18:55,050 --> 00:19:00,689 S2: need to do to keep people safe, and how do we, uh, 252 00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:02,810 S2: advance that in the future as well? 253 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:07,410 S3: You've characterized the Bondi backlash, Prime Minister, as driven in 254 00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:10,409 S3: large part by by political actors. But looking back, do 255 00:19:10,410 --> 00:19:13,010 S3: you acknowledge that you were on the wrong side for 256 00:19:13,010 --> 00:19:14,609 S3: a fair chunk of time on the question of a 257 00:19:14,609 --> 00:19:17,930 S3: Royal commission and the Royal Commission? Advocacy was much wider 258 00:19:17,930 --> 00:19:20,449 S3: than just being made by political actors. Do you do 259 00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:22,969 S3: you regret some of the the arguments you made against 260 00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:24,370 S3: it in that period, and do you wish you'd just 261 00:19:24,369 --> 00:19:25,010 S3: moved more quickly? 262 00:19:25,210 --> 00:19:29,090 S2: To be clear, um, a royal commission was announced by 263 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:33,450 S2: New South Wales. We said we would fully participate in that. 264 00:19:33,450 --> 00:19:35,970 S2: So that was done. The immediate thing that we needed 265 00:19:35,970 --> 00:19:42,770 S2: to do was to assess in that week and Days 266 00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:48,770 S2: and an early period after December 14th. Were these people 267 00:19:48,770 --> 00:19:52,490 S2: part of a cell? Was there going to be another 268 00:19:52,690 --> 00:19:55,490 S2: attack in Sydney or somewhere else? Which is a pattern 269 00:19:55,490 --> 00:20:00,330 S2: that we have seen from terrorist attacks overseas. What was 270 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:05,370 S2: the connections between the Akram's and international organizations? We knew 271 00:20:05,410 --> 00:20:09,970 S2: they were inspired by ISIS, but were there any international 272 00:20:09,970 --> 00:20:12,090 S2: actors here involved as well? 273 00:20:12,130 --> 00:20:12,970 S3: What's the answer to that? 274 00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:16,570 S2: What did we need? Well, there'll be a royal commission, 275 00:20:16,570 --> 00:20:23,570 S2: but it would appear from the initial assessments and we 276 00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:26,010 S2: had to find out where had they gone? They'd hired 277 00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:28,890 S2: the place at Lakemba. Where were they trained? They trained 278 00:20:28,890 --> 00:20:33,010 S2: down at the farm on the south coast. Why were 279 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:35,290 S2: they on the Philippines? What was the connection there? So 280 00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:39,810 S2: we engage with all of our intelligence agencies. And the assessment, 281 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:43,619 S2: as the director general of aphasia, said to Senate estimates, 282 00:20:43,660 --> 00:20:48,220 S2: is that all of the initial assessment up to this 283 00:20:48,220 --> 00:20:51,900 S2: point is that they acted alone as a father and 284 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:54,580 S2: son team, and that is part of the issue is 285 00:20:54,580 --> 00:21:00,020 S2: it's very difficult to detect because there's not electronic activity 286 00:21:00,020 --> 00:21:03,540 S2: between them. So it was that within the week we 287 00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:08,379 S2: had announced that we would have Dennis Richardson, the most 288 00:21:08,380 --> 00:21:13,420 S2: senior person to look at intelligence security issues. We also 289 00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:17,380 S2: said we wouldn't wait to have an inquiry that would 290 00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:20,580 S2: report in a year's time. We would bring Parliament back 291 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:24,659 S2: and legislate when that was required, both over guns, where 292 00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:28,260 S2: I convened a national cabinet meeting the next day on 293 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:32,580 S2: the Monday afternoon, and we would look at hate speech 294 00:21:32,619 --> 00:21:36,859 S2: laws as well, because we identified that as an issue. 295 00:21:37,260 --> 00:21:40,740 S2: So we bear in mind as well, this was over 296 00:21:40,820 --> 00:21:46,260 S2: Christmas and New Year period. The National Security Committee met 297 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:52,660 S2: each and every day. We also in between, uh, the 298 00:21:52,820 --> 00:21:56,460 S2: this period, you couldn't announce. Can you imagine? Just go 299 00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:58,860 S2: back a little bit about some of the rhetoric and 300 00:21:58,859 --> 00:22:01,979 S2: the engagement of some of the political actors. Have we 301 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:03,739 S2: said we're going to have a royal commission, but we 302 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:06,500 S2: won't tell you who the royal commissioner will be. We 303 00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:08,980 S2: won't tell you what the terms of reference will be. 304 00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:13,700 S2: That would have been, in my view, disruptive and would 305 00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:16,859 S2: have ensured when you look at the attacks that were made, 306 00:22:16,859 --> 00:22:20,660 S2: personal attacks by people who should know better against a 307 00:22:20,660 --> 00:22:25,820 S2: former High Court justice in Virginia Bell, than the undermining 308 00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:28,859 S2: of the Royal commission would have occurred had we not 309 00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:32,340 S2: been in a position to have a comprehensive announcement. 310 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:34,820 S3: That argument, though, indicates that you were thinking about it 311 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:37,540 S3: and prepared to move on it as you argue in 312 00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:40,100 S3: publicly against it. But anyway, let's not, let's not. 313 00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:44,980 S2: Well, no. Be very clear that, uh, the New South 314 00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:48,500 S2: Wales premier announced a royal commission. We said we would 315 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:52,700 S2: fully cooperate with it and have all of the federal 316 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,620 S2: agencies that would have effectively been in New South Wales 317 00:22:55,619 --> 00:22:59,939 S2: and Commonwealth Royal Commission. What was occurring at that time 318 00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:05,379 S2: was people weren't looking for agreement or consensus or moving 319 00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:09,899 S2: things forward. With every single announcement. People were looking for 320 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:14,620 S2: distinction and difference. And I understand at that time as 321 00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:19,460 S2: well that grieving families, uh, who I was meeting with 322 00:23:19,460 --> 00:23:23,260 S2: and having some really tough conversations, I accept that part 323 00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:26,820 S2: of my job as prime minister is to be a 324 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:31,860 S2: bit of a shock absorber for the nation, for people 325 00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,740 S2: who were grieving at that time, and I have so 326 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:40,780 S2: much sympathy for them. Uh, my disagreement is with some 327 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:42,660 S2: of the political actors at that time. 328 00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:44,740 S3: I'll just quickly move on to one more Herzog question, 329 00:23:44,740 --> 00:23:46,980 S3: and then we'll move on to some policy stuff. Um, 330 00:23:47,020 --> 00:23:50,020 S3: as you've noted, Isaac Herzog is not a domestic ally 331 00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:53,220 S3: of the Prime Minister. I wonder if in your conversations 332 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:55,540 S3: with him this week, perhaps at the Kirribilli, without divulging 333 00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:58,380 S3: too much detail, what did you learn about the domestic 334 00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:03,300 S3: situation in Israel? The settlements issue the prospect of two states, uh, 335 00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:06,020 S3: Benjamin Netanyahu's political future. Did you learn much? 336 00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:10,980 S2: Well, we have private conversations. And my private conversations stay private, 337 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:12,020 S2: whether they're with. 338 00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:12,820 S3: Go high level. 339 00:24:12,859 --> 00:24:16,260 S2: Whether whether they're with the president of Israel or the 340 00:24:16,260 --> 00:24:22,060 S2: president of the United States or or with, uh, President XI, uh, 341 00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:25,580 S2: I engage. That's one of the ways that Australia is 342 00:24:25,580 --> 00:24:31,859 S2: able to engage internationally with respect. And, uh, that is 343 00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:36,660 S2: something that I do in a respectful way. And I 344 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:41,110 S2: was very pleased to. I know, President Herzog, if it's 345 00:24:41,109 --> 00:24:45,310 S2: not the first meal that we've had together, and he's 346 00:24:45,310 --> 00:24:50,430 S2: a former leader of the Israeli Labor Party, he is 347 00:24:50,430 --> 00:24:58,270 S2: someone who is someone who has a broad experience politically. 348 00:24:58,310 --> 00:25:02,430 S2: We first met, I think, probably more than two decades ago. 349 00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:05,189 S3: Did this heal relations with Australia as he as he 350 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:06,510 S3: said he'd aim to do this. 351 00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:14,350 S2: I believe is a positive thing that, uh, was able 352 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:20,590 S2: to occur. He you always have to look at the counterfactual. Uh, 353 00:25:20,590 --> 00:25:27,070 S2: for those people who say that President Herzog should not 354 00:25:27,070 --> 00:25:30,910 S2: have been allowed to come to Australia. Can you imagine 355 00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:37,030 S2: the message that that would send to the world, frankly, that, uh, 356 00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:43,510 S2: We denied the head of state of, uh, of Israel 357 00:25:43,950 --> 00:25:51,470 S2: the opportunity upon invitation, particularly from the families at Bondi, uh, 358 00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:57,590 S2: to come and grieve with them. Uh, that to my mind, 359 00:25:57,590 --> 00:26:03,110 S2: people need to always look at, uh, the consequences and 360 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:10,389 S2: the counterfactual of of where it sits now, President Herzog overwhelmingly, uh, 361 00:26:10,550 --> 00:26:16,310 S2: engaged in, I think, an appropriate and respectful way. That 362 00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:20,990 S2: doesn't mean, like any other leader, uh, person. That doesn't 363 00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:25,070 S2: mean that, you know, I endorse all views or anything else. 364 00:26:25,070 --> 00:26:29,430 S2: That's not what it was about. Overwhelmingly, uh, President Herzog 365 00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:32,909 S2: and I might say Mrs. Herzog as well, uh, comforting, 366 00:26:32,910 --> 00:26:37,830 S2: particularly the women who were grieving. There was something that 367 00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:39,190 S2: was very moving. 368 00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:43,470 S3: That's good to hear. Last year, PM was a year 369 00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:45,310 S3: of delivery for you between May and the end of 370 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:48,350 S3: the year. Ticking off election promises. What's this year about 371 00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:51,270 S3: on policy and direction for this government and your own? 372 00:26:51,670 --> 00:26:56,550 S2: Well, continuing to deliver and consolidate, continuing to make sure 373 00:26:57,350 --> 00:27:01,350 S2: that we deliver on cost of living because we know 374 00:27:01,350 --> 00:27:07,470 S2: people continue to be under financial pressure. Setting up a 375 00:27:07,470 --> 00:27:11,390 S2: Australia for the future. So one of the things that 376 00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:14,790 S2: we did in the lead up to the election was 377 00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:18,150 S2: to commit to measures that built on what we had 378 00:27:18,150 --> 00:27:22,350 S2: done earlier in the term. Most of those now have 379 00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:26,389 S2: been implemented, but they're being rolled out. So making sure 380 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,350 S2: that we deliver on the commitments. So the opening of 381 00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:34,070 S2: the urgent care clinics, the free TAFE, the other measures 382 00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:37,590 S2: that we have and frankly, a range of them are 383 00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:41,950 S2: exceeding expectations. The batteries program, the tripling of the bulk 384 00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:46,030 S2: billing incentive, the number of people now 2.5 million people 385 00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:50,629 S2: have been through urgent care clinics, 725,000 on on free tape, 386 00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:54,989 S2: those measures. But getting the economy strengthened as well. How 387 00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:58,869 S2: do we set up future growth? The productivity challenge is ongoing. 388 00:27:58,910 --> 00:28:03,470 S2: It's not easy. Areas like critical minerals as well. The 389 00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:05,590 S2: deal that we have with the United States, but the 390 00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:09,070 S2: arrangements we have with other countries as well, the Prime 391 00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:11,870 S2: Minister of Canada will be here in just a few 392 00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:16,390 S2: weeks time. There's a lot that we can do with Canada, 393 00:28:16,550 --> 00:28:19,830 S2: our relations in the region as well. In the past 394 00:28:19,869 --> 00:28:23,469 S2: three weeks, we've had an agreement, an upgrade in the 395 00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:29,870 S2: relationship with Timor-Leste, an important treaty with Indonesia. This is 396 00:28:29,869 --> 00:28:35,520 S2: a very significant agreement going forward with a very important neighbor. 397 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,080 S2: And so setting us up in what are turbulent times, 398 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,360 S2: how do we improve? Continue to improve and consolidate relations 399 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,080 S2: with Pacific Island Forum with Asean nations, as well as 400 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,240 S2: with our traditional allies in the United States, the United Kingdom, 401 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,720 S2: as well as our European partners. 402 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,160 S1: Prime Minister, do you think the capital gains tax discount 403 00:28:59,160 --> 00:28:59,760 S1: is fair? 404 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,360 S2: Look, we think that the capital gains tax discount was 405 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,280 S2: something that was brought in by the Howard government. It 406 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,200 S2: is something that, uh, was, uh, an assessment made at 407 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,760 S2: that time. Uh, we've said, uh, we'll consider a range 408 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,920 S2: of issues in the lead up to the budget in May, 409 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:32,320 S2: and we'll do our usual deliberative way, uh, an orderly way, uh, 410 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,160 S2: that we conduct ourselves. 411 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,520 S1: I'm obviously trying to get a sharper answer out of 412 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,480 S1: you and your jousting me away. I'm glad. 413 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,280 S2: You noticed. 414 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,880 S1: Yeah. Intergenerational equity. A lens that you're going to be 415 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,840 S1: applying to the upcoming federal budget in May. Can I 416 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:48,480 S1: ask that question? 417 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,880 S2: It's a lens that we put across everything. It's why 418 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,320 S2: we had the 20% reduction in student debt that the 419 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,080 S2: coalition say is waste, because we know that it's harder 420 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,959 S2: for younger people to have a crack at why we've 421 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,440 S2: done free TAFE. It's why we're doing the university hubs 422 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,040 S2: as well. It's why we will look at the impact 423 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,880 S2: as well of the, the, the tax system. It's why 424 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,840 S2: we have targeted. If you look at the tax cuts 425 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,200 S2: that we're putting in place this year and next year, 426 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,280 S2: that lower rate will particularly assist young people, because that 427 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,160 S2: first marginal tax rate impacts a whole lot of people 428 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,080 S2: who are working part time or who are just entering 429 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,800 S2: the workforce. It's why we've concentrated on that. And we 430 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,920 S2: made the very difficult and some might say at the time, 431 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:48,440 S2: courageous decision to change stage three of the tax cuts. 432 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,520 S1: Sure. And if you wanted to continue that theme of, 433 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,960 S1: you know, helping young people in particular and in particular 434 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,520 S1: around housing, then you're going to have to look at 435 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,480 S1: the tax arrangements around housing. 436 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,840 S2: The big issue, of course, in housing is supply. So 437 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,200 S2: how do you look at increasing supply? There's a range 438 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,160 S2: of measures that we're doing. The 5% deposits has helped. 439 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,960 S2: Tens of thousands already have had their homes their first 440 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,880 S2: home approved as a result of that. Uh, we are 441 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,080 S2: looking as well at how we reserve, uh, new home 442 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,520 S2: builds for for first home buyers. We announce the first 443 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:36,490 S2: deal You. In South Australia, 17,000 new homes, 7000 are 444 00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:42,450 S2: reserved for first home buyers in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, 445 00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:46,090 S2: and will be rolling out more of these measures right 446 00:31:46,090 --> 00:31:47,250 S2: across the country. 447 00:31:47,290 --> 00:31:51,210 S3: You've, um, you've definitely not ruling out capital gains tax. 448 00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:54,170 S3: You have ruled out negative gearing changes. What about what 449 00:31:54,170 --> 00:31:55,090 S3: about trusts? 450 00:31:55,210 --> 00:31:58,130 S2: Oh, look, we're not getting in the rule in rule 451 00:31:58,130 --> 00:32:02,770 S2: out game as much as you try. Talk to me on, uh, 452 00:32:02,930 --> 00:32:06,010 S2: the you know, the budget is the second Tuesday in May. 453 00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:09,290 S2: You can have us on after that. And then I'll 454 00:32:09,290 --> 00:32:10,210 S2: talk about the budget. 455 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:12,090 S3: What are your thoughts on tightening up Truss? 456 00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:16,010 S2: Our thoughts are that what we do is we put 457 00:32:16,010 --> 00:32:19,250 S2: together a budget. And obviously our focus at the beginning 458 00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:23,450 S2: of this year has been on the national security measures. 459 00:32:24,170 --> 00:32:28,410 S2: So we will have a proper budget process. That's what 460 00:32:28,410 --> 00:32:29,890 S2: we do. We're an orderly government. 461 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:30,610 S3: I'll take that as not. 462 00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:32,250 S2: The other side are a rebel. 463 00:32:33,130 --> 00:32:34,810 S3: I'll take that as not closing the door on trust. 464 00:32:34,810 --> 00:32:36,570 S3: Just one more on the budget process. 465 00:32:36,610 --> 00:32:39,530 S2: You can ask all of those things. It becomes a game. 466 00:32:39,570 --> 00:32:41,570 S3: But you do rule out negative gearing. So the difference 467 00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:41,970 S3: in language. 468 00:32:42,010 --> 00:32:43,170 S2: It all becomes a game. 469 00:32:43,210 --> 00:32:44,969 S3: It's a game we have to play, unfortunately. 470 00:32:45,010 --> 00:32:46,930 S1: Well we're not we're not interested in playing a game. 471 00:32:46,930 --> 00:32:49,250 S1: We're trying to we're trying to get answers out of you. 472 00:32:49,410 --> 00:32:50,810 S1: At least get some idea. 473 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:55,610 S2: What you'll do, though. What governments do is to work 474 00:32:55,610 --> 00:32:59,690 S2: out full plans, a bit like refer to, you know, 475 00:33:00,250 --> 00:33:03,170 S2: whether it's details of royal commissions or other things. You 476 00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:07,010 S2: work out a full plan, you then go out, you 477 00:33:07,010 --> 00:33:09,970 S2: announce it and you back it in. That's what we 478 00:33:09,970 --> 00:33:16,090 S2: did over tax, whether it be the income tax changes 479 00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:18,250 S2: that we made to stage three, where I went to 480 00:33:18,250 --> 00:33:20,690 S2: the National Press Club, go back and have a look 481 00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:22,970 S2: at the way that the Herald and The Age reported 482 00:33:22,970 --> 00:33:24,090 S2: that the next day. 483 00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:25,530 S1: What objectively and clearly. 484 00:33:25,570 --> 00:33:29,330 S2: It was not glowing, let me tell you. And, uh, 485 00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:34,130 S2: you know, there were political obituaries written for, uh, the 486 00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:38,690 S2: government over the first period, but we knew what we 487 00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:41,489 S2: were doing. We had our arguments. We'd gone through the 488 00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:45,730 S2: detail in an orderly way. And similarly, the tax cuts 489 00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:49,170 S2: that we put in place in last year's budget, it's 490 00:33:49,170 --> 00:33:55,250 S2: not that long ago. Last year's budget were important measures. Uh, 491 00:33:55,410 --> 00:34:00,090 S2: that will deliver will will increase, uh, the take home 492 00:34:00,130 --> 00:34:05,090 S2: pay of working people this July and next July will 493 00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:10,290 S2: work through a full comprehensive budget, and we'll make announcements. 494 00:34:10,290 --> 00:34:12,290 S2: And then I'm happy to come on the podcast and 495 00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:12,770 S2: talk about it. 496 00:34:12,810 --> 00:34:16,009 S3: I've just got one more on the budget, more straightforward one. 497 00:34:16,050 --> 00:34:18,450 S3: Ministers are talking about this budget as one where there's 498 00:34:18,489 --> 00:34:21,330 S3: a real attempt to do some tightening. On the spending side, 499 00:34:21,370 --> 00:34:24,890 S3: how ambitious are you to get some, uh, some spending 500 00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:28,810 S3: cuts and saves in this budget? How lofty is your 501 00:34:28,930 --> 00:34:30,170 S3: ceiling on what you can do there? 502 00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:34,969 S2: We have always looked for saves. We've put $114 billion 503 00:34:34,969 --> 00:34:39,410 S2: of savings already, and that's on top of what we've 504 00:34:39,410 --> 00:34:43,330 S2: done is to bank revenue upgrades, some 70% of it 505 00:34:43,650 --> 00:34:47,049 S2: under the former government. Most of the revenue upgrades they 506 00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:50,250 S2: just spent and they had no saves in the last budget, 507 00:34:50,290 --> 00:34:54,410 S2: not a dollar. So we had $20 billion of saves 508 00:34:54,410 --> 00:35:00,410 S2: in the mid-year economic forecast just in December. So we'll 509 00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:05,050 S2: go through. We've done that work. We'll continue to do work. 510 00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:09,090 S2: The ICRC will step up its meetings over the next 511 00:35:09,090 --> 00:35:12,810 S2: couple of months. And of course, we'll look for savings 512 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:17,490 S2: that are appropriate. I think people want to ensure that 513 00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:22,010 S2: every dollar of public spending is making a difference in 514 00:35:22,050 --> 00:35:26,410 S2: terms of improving the lives of Australians, not just immediately, 515 00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:31,180 S2: but also some of the measures are about the long 516 00:35:31,219 --> 00:35:35,460 S2: term change that is required, whether that be the health 517 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:39,780 S2: and hospitals agreement we've just done or the better funding 518 00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:41,700 S2: for every public school. 519 00:35:41,739 --> 00:35:42,300 S3: But it's. 520 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:43,500 S2: Been talked about for a long. 521 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,779 S3: Time. He's tightening up on spending a big focus of 522 00:35:45,780 --> 00:35:46,540 S3: this budget. 523 00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:49,020 S2: It always is. That's what we do. 524 00:35:50,060 --> 00:35:52,819 S1: Prime Minister, as we record, the Liberal Party's preparing for 525 00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:55,819 S1: a vote on their leadership with Angus Taylor contesting Sussan Ley. 526 00:35:56,260 --> 00:35:58,060 S1: I want to ask you, what do you think of 527 00:35:58,060 --> 00:36:00,780 S1: Angus Taylor as a person? I note that the labor 528 00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:02,739 S1: side is very much trying to portray him as a 529 00:36:02,739 --> 00:36:05,740 S1: blue blood, as a sort of Chino wearing, squattocracy type. 530 00:36:06,060 --> 00:36:08,580 S1: But what's your experience of him behind closed doors or 531 00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:11,660 S1: around the corridors of Parliament as an actual bloke? 532 00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:14,660 S2: Uh, I haven't had that much to do with him. 533 00:36:14,660 --> 00:36:17,220 S2: That's the the truth of the matter. I do think 534 00:36:17,219 --> 00:36:22,700 S2: that he is one of, uh, those people on that 535 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:28,500 S2: side of politics who are, uh, I guess born to rule. 536 00:36:29,180 --> 00:36:32,740 S2: That's the perception. And even the way that he's conducting 537 00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:37,379 S2: this challenge is he's gone out there. He lost a 538 00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:42,660 S2: ballot to Susan Lee. Um, he's been on strike since 539 00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:46,299 S2: in terms of doing anything as shadow minister for defence, 540 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:50,980 S2: a pretty important portfolio. And, uh, last night he went 541 00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:54,100 S2: out there and said he'd resign. Didn't even say he 542 00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:58,739 S2: was challenging Susan Lee. It was extraordinary. And he's got 543 00:36:58,739 --> 00:37:04,180 S2: no reason, uh, no policy reason for direction. It was 544 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:07,339 S2: almost like he might as well have said, uh, you know, 545 00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:11,540 S2: vote for me and I'll advance world peace. It was extraordinary, 546 00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:17,140 S2: the lack of detail or any thought whatsoever about a 547 00:37:17,180 --> 00:37:22,100 S2: change in direction or any specific policies. And I know 548 00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:25,660 S2: that my experience of him as a minister, uh, was 549 00:37:25,780 --> 00:37:30,700 S2: diabolical as energy minister. And as you know, four gigawatts 550 00:37:30,739 --> 00:37:34,260 S2: left the system and one gigawatt came into the system. 551 00:37:34,739 --> 00:37:36,620 S1: Explain to listeners what you're talking about there. 552 00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:42,300 S2: Yeah. He as energy minister, he was diabolical. And then 553 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:46,739 S2: as shadow treasurer, he opposed tax cuts. He opposed all 554 00:37:46,739 --> 00:37:50,100 S2: of our cost of living relief. Uh, he went to 555 00:37:50,140 --> 00:37:54,980 S2: an election arguing for higher taxes and higher deficits. Uh. 556 00:37:55,060 --> 00:38:01,020 S2: It's diabolical. And the the idea that what the Liberal 557 00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:05,540 S2: Party need is to become more right wing is, to me, 558 00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:09,220 S2: to miss the message that has been given to them 559 00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:12,060 S2: at the last election and the one before. 560 00:38:12,780 --> 00:38:15,100 S1: Do you think there's been sexism in the way that 561 00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:19,460 S1: the liberals and the nationals have treated the first Liberal, 562 00:38:19,739 --> 00:38:22,339 S1: the first female leader of the Liberal Party, from your 563 00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:23,300 S1: vantage point? 564 00:38:23,580 --> 00:38:26,779 S2: I think certainly that It's fair to say Susan Lee 565 00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:28,380 S2: hasn't been given a fair crack. 566 00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:30,860 S1: But do you think that's partly because of her gender 567 00:38:30,860 --> 00:38:32,180 S1: or in any way because of her gender? 568 00:38:32,340 --> 00:38:38,100 S2: I think that the, the, the coalition, uh, have failed 569 00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:43,020 S2: to understand that, uh, if you want to represent the 570 00:38:43,020 --> 00:38:46,900 S2: Australian people, uh, half the Australian people or just a 571 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:52,020 S2: bit over, uh, women and on the range of issues, uh, 572 00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:56,620 S2: they're dismissive of policy issues. The women's health program that 573 00:38:56,620 --> 00:39:01,180 S2: we've implemented, the shutting of the gender pay gap, the 574 00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:06,339 S2: pay increases in feminised industries like aged care and childcare. Uh, 575 00:39:06,340 --> 00:39:10,020 S2: the measures that we have put in place, uh, have 576 00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:14,979 S2: all been dismissed by the coalition. And I think that, uh, 577 00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:18,779 S2: one of the pluses that the party I'm proud to 578 00:39:18,820 --> 00:39:23,260 S2: lead have is we, we we look like the population, uh, 579 00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:27,310 S2: where a majority of women in our caucus and around 580 00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:32,069 S2: the cabinet table means that you get those voices and 581 00:39:32,070 --> 00:39:36,830 S2: those issues heard. And I think that, uh, you know, 582 00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:41,629 S2: the Liberal Party have failed to modernize. And I don't 583 00:39:41,630 --> 00:39:46,030 S2: think Angus Taylor is at all in touch with, uh, 584 00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:51,950 S2: the needs of, uh, Australians or the aspirations that Australians have. 585 00:39:51,950 --> 00:39:55,910 S2: I think that, uh, there are many people in the 586 00:39:55,910 --> 00:40:00,990 S2: Liberal Party who have always, never seen labor as being 587 00:40:01,030 --> 00:40:05,750 S2: a legitimate government. And that's why, uh, in their critique, 588 00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:10,430 S2: everything is always dialled up to 11. There's a complete 589 00:40:10,469 --> 00:40:16,590 S2: failure to at least acknowledge that at the last election, uh, 590 00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:24,190 S2: we received a considerable majority in the House of Representatives, 591 00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:29,470 S2: and they continue to just oppose everything and not engage 592 00:40:29,469 --> 00:40:33,229 S2: in any constructive way. I think they're suffering as well 593 00:40:33,230 --> 00:40:38,430 S2: from the fact that Peter Dutton did keep their team united. 594 00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:40,670 S2: That was something that he saw as a big plus. 595 00:40:40,670 --> 00:40:43,550 S2: But he did that by them shrinking in on themselves, 596 00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:50,790 S2: becoming more conservative, more introspective, less with a capacity to 597 00:40:51,150 --> 00:40:58,110 S2: engage on issues like climate change, like equity issues, like 598 00:40:58,350 --> 00:41:04,390 S2: what is needed to advance Australia's national interest in the 599 00:41:04,430 --> 00:41:06,430 S2: times where we are. 600 00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:08,630 S3: Is Andrew Hastie more dangerous than the Labor Party than 601 00:41:08,670 --> 00:41:09,350 S3: Angus Taylor? 602 00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:13,589 S2: Andrew Hastie is more right wing. Uh, you know, I 603 00:41:13,590 --> 00:41:19,390 S2: think that Australians are looking for, uh, a government that 604 00:41:19,390 --> 00:41:25,469 S2: is reasonable, uh, that listens to them, that's orderly and 605 00:41:25,469 --> 00:41:32,830 S2: that is prepared to engage constructively. My government is an 606 00:41:32,830 --> 00:41:37,430 S2: orderly government. We had a comprehensive platform we took to 607 00:41:37,469 --> 00:41:44,670 S2: the election. We're delivering that platform. Our opponents are are 608 00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:51,870 S2: good at identifying grievance and promoting division and trying to 609 00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:56,509 S2: set Australian against Australian. But that's the One Nation agenda. 610 00:41:57,070 --> 00:41:59,830 S2: And if you're going to be One nation light, why 611 00:41:59,830 --> 00:42:01,990 S2: wouldn't people just vote for the real thing? 612 00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:05,589 S1: Pam, you've been so generous with your time and we 613 00:42:05,590 --> 00:42:07,910 S1: greatly appreciate it. We'll let you go. You've probably got 614 00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:10,149 S1: some popcorn you need to eat while watching the, um, 615 00:42:10,270 --> 00:42:11,830 S1: the Angus Taylor Sussan Ley stoush. 616 00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:15,710 S2: Well, we have, uh, tomorrow I'll be at the, uh, 617 00:42:15,830 --> 00:42:20,350 S2: the breakfast commemorate with members of the Stolen Generations who 618 00:42:20,350 --> 00:42:23,870 S2: are here. One of the things that has occurred is 619 00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:28,069 S2: the timing of the coalition. The coalition broke up the 620 00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:31,750 S2: first time when Susan Lee was dealing with personal tragedy, 621 00:42:32,350 --> 00:42:37,350 S2: the second time on the National day of mourning. They 622 00:42:37,390 --> 00:42:42,470 S2: had meetings to plot the overthrow of Susan Lee on 623 00:42:42,469 --> 00:42:46,549 S2: the morning of the funeral of Katie Allen, who was 624 00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:54,109 S2: respected across the parliament. And then Angus Taylor resigned on 625 00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:59,350 S2: the day that President Isaac Herzog was visiting the Parliament 626 00:42:59,750 --> 00:43:03,870 S2: here in Canberra. And now, today and tomorrow is about 627 00:43:03,870 --> 00:43:09,990 S2: closing the gap and respecting First Nations people and advancing reconciliation. 628 00:43:10,590 --> 00:43:15,230 S2: And they have, uh, I think, with their timing on 629 00:43:15,230 --> 00:43:19,510 S2: all of these events, just got it completely wrong. And 630 00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:21,920 S2: it will really jar with people. 631 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,120 S1: Pam, thank you very much. And we'll hope. We hope 632 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,120 S1: we can have you back on soon before the budget. 633 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,760 S2: We hope indeed we can do that. And I can 634 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,880 S2: not answer Paul's questions again about the budget. 635 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:33,560 S3: So fruitful. 636 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,920 S1: We can play that play that game again, as you say, 637 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,440 S1: we've had fun. Thank you very much. 638 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,400 S2: Thanks very much. 639 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,640 S1: You can read all of our political news on our 640 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:55,040 S1: website or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong 641 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,560 S1: with help from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, 642 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,360 S1: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. 643 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,000 S1: Before you go, follow Inside Politics and leave a review 644 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,200 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank 645 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:13,040 S1: you for listening.