S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday,
S1: May 26th. Colm Toibin is quite simply, one of the
S1: most revered writers in modern literature. As one of his
S1: fellow authors once put of Toibin, who has been shortlisted
S1: for the Booker Prize multiple times, he's there when the
S1: thorn enters the skin. And so he is his international
S1: best selling novel. Brooklyn takes us inside the mind of
S1: Eilis Lacey, a meek young woman who is pushed by
S1: her family against her own wishes to emigrate from a
S1: small Irish town to the United States in the 1950s.
S1: Prepared only by a family of women who, as Tobin writes,
S1: could do everything except say out loud what it was
S1: they were thinking. The book later became a hit movie
S1: starring Saoirse Ronan, who won plaudits for playing out the
S1: agonies of trying to adapt to the customs of a
S1: strange new land. When we meet Eilish 20 years later
S1: in Tobin's latest novel, Long Island, she again feels the
S1: pull of Ireland after she discovers that her American husband
S1: has fathered a child with another woman. So what does Tobin,
S1: who has lived in Barcelona, Los Angeles, New York and
S1: Dublin make of our yearning to belong and how it
S1: can twist us internally? How it can drive otherwise rational
S1: people to dam entire groups of people. Today, Colm Toibin,
S1: who is in Australia for the Sydney Writers Festival and
S1: the Melbourne Writers Festival, gives his insights into Gaza, Donald
S1: Trump and the new pope and the times when even
S1: he can't find the right words in his own life. So, Callum,
S1: the first thing I really want to ask you about
S1: is the issue of belonging. It's something I'm super passionate
S1: about myself and so many of the main characters in
S1: your book struggle with this. Like where do they belong?
S1: Is this something that comes from a personal struggle? Like,
S1: do you struggle with this feeling?
S2: You see, I think it comes from a real rootedness
S2: that some of the characters also feel. In other words,
S2: that you're from a town. I'm from Enniscorthy, County Wexford.
S2: My parents were born there. My grandparents were born there.
S2: And things go back further than that if you bothered
S2: to investigate. My father was a teacher and my two
S2: sisters were teachers. So that meant that we had a
S2: relationship with the town. And that's where I'm from. And
S2: therefore it means that either you make a decision early
S2: on in your life, and it's about sensibility, that there
S2: are a lot of people I know who just wanted
S2: to stay in the town, love the rhythms of it,
S2: love the years going by, just love the next generation coming.
S2: And then there are people like me who just looked
S2: at the main road very, very carefully at a very
S2: young age and loved the train going to Dublin if
S2: anyone was going anywhere, if a circus came, you know,
S2: like if a, you know, if a missionary came saying,
S2: Come to Africa and join the missions, I would go
S2: have gone anywhere and I'm still like that.
S1: And so tell me, I mean, is any of that
S1: rooted in the fact that you're a gay man who
S1: grew up in the 1950s and 1960s in Ireland? I
S1: can't imagine that might have been necessarily the easiest place
S1: to be with the Catholic Church ruling so much there.
S1: Is any of that related?
S2: Um, I don't think so. I mean, even when you
S2: say you're gay, man, I wonder who are you talking about?
S2: Because of course, you spent your time thinking you were
S2: not gay. You just preferred blokes, you know? In other words,
S2: the identity tag came later, and it would have been
S2: so afraid if someone had said you were any. You're
S2: a queer or anything, but you felt I'm not a queer.
S2: I just like blokes. Um, the Catholic Church wasn't the
S2: problem as much as the general society where this thing
S2: was unmentionable. It wasn't really that it was illegal. Of
S2: course it was illegal. But it wasn't just illegal. Legal.
S2: No one said anything about it, so it didn't really
S2: oppress you in any way that was obvious to you.
S2: It oppressed you in ways that were much more serious
S2: because it was all about silences. It was all about
S2: that strange oppression. Where do not mention this. And then
S2: later on don't tell so and so and oh my God,
S2: what will so-and-so think? And and then everyone got over it.
S2: I mean, what's really irritating in a way, is that
S2: everybody got over it, and you wonder why they couldn't
S2: have got over it a generation earlier, since they're so
S2: easy now about it. And, you know, it's really fashionable
S2: to be queer. And people's grannies love them because they're queer.
S2: Why didn't their grannies try that out, like when in 1962?
S1: Or why had that never been a problem to begin with?
S2: Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Exactly why that.
S1: Would be.
S2: More ideal. Yeah, yeah. But, um, oddly enough, the church
S2: is not the problem. The church is on the run,
S2: you know, and we have them on the run. And
S2: I like this new pope. I just think he's, um. Well,
S2: he's the same age as me, and I like anyone
S2: who's the same age as me, but I, um, he's
S2: I think he's a quiet, spoken, thoughtful person. And in politics,
S2: that would be such a relief. After some of the
S2: noise we've been hearing from some of the buffoons. I
S2: won't name him.
S1: Well, you not know.
S2: But he's called Donald Trump.
S1: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Well,
S1: I wanted to ask you about the new pope because
S1: you have actually written a lot about Catholicism. You wrote
S1: a travel book, The Sign of the cross Travels in
S1: Catholic Europe. You wrote a play about the Virgin Mary,
S1: but then you also once wrote in an essay, one
S1: of the purposes of literature, as Joyce made clear, is
S1: to put religion in its place. So where would you
S1: put religion if you could?
S3: And I don't know.
S2: And I was in the Vatican recently, and I realized
S2: that I'd been growing fond of the place, and I'd
S2: been growing very tolerant about Holy Mother and the one
S2: true religion and the I suppose it has to do
S2: now with the fact that in America, the only voice
S2: of sanity now would be something like the bishop of,
S2: you know, Trump really had it in for Pope Francis
S2: and he in December just before he was inaugurated, he
S2: appointed an ambassador to the Vatican, who really had written
S2: against France and almost railed against Francis and Francis in retaliation,
S2: in January of this year appointed a new Cardinal Archbishop
S2: of Washington, D.C., who was in San Diego. And just
S2: before he left San Diego in January, he led a
S2: march of migrants against Trump. This man, called McElroy then
S2: arrived in triumph in Washington, DC. So there is a
S2: war going on between this administration and the certainly Francis,
S2: but also now in a much more thoughtful and I
S2: would think, much more dangerous. I mean, I think that
S2: this new man, Leo, does not suffer fools. You know,
S2: in Chicago. Yeah.
S1: South side.
S2: I think so. And he's lived in Peru. Meaning, if
S2: you think you know what this is about, you don't.
S2: I do. You know, all those years in working with
S2: the poor people in Peru during a very difficult time.
S1: And this is so interesting to me. So I want
S1: to know about your newfound fondness of the Vatican, or
S1: perhaps a greater fondness for Catholicism in general. I don't know,
S1: I'd love you to tell me, because you did write
S1: an essay on the Ferns Report into clerical sex abuse
S1: in the Diocese of Ferns and Wexford. So do you
S1: forgive the Catholic Church for those abuses? What is with
S1: this new fondness for you? It's so interesting, I know.
S2: I mean, I mean that that is an outstanding matter. And, uh,
S2: for for the victims to feel that somehow not not
S2: only are they being ignored, but as though they're being
S2: written out of the current agenda. In other words, here
S2: is me I'm talking all about, you know, the new
S2: pope and his relationship with Trump. But in the meantime,
S2: there are people who are really hurting because actually it
S2: hasn't gone away for them.
S1: We're talking about the victims of.
S2: I am, I am. And I mean, in Ireland, this
S2: is this is a really serious matter. It hasn't gone
S2: away for them. And there are other countries where it
S2: hasn't even begun to be investigated. And every, every single
S2: time it's looked at, there was obviously a secret rule
S2: the church had. Do not go to the police. We
S2: are above civil society. We are above the law. And
S2: what to do with the priest is talk to him
S2: very severely and move him to another parish and tell
S2: no one. And this caused untold grief. It ruined people's
S2: lives and they still haven't come clean on. This was
S2: what we did because it was Vatican policy. This came
S2: from on high, you know. Stop blaming individual bishops, although
S2: they are to blame, but actually from on high. How
S2: come in no place did they go to the police?
S1: So tell me. So how do you reconcile that with
S1: what is the fondness that you know, that you felt
S1: when you were in the Vatican? Because this is what
S1: I love about what you write, which is, of course,
S1: what we all experience with humanity, no matter who we are,
S1: is that life is complicated, right? You know, we all
S1: contain hypocrisies and things that make no sense. I'm not
S1: calling you a hypocrite, but how do you reconcile those feelings?
S1: What was it that you felt in the Vatican?
S2: Someone. I was having lunch with someone. But they said
S2: to me just casually, you know, a lot of people
S2: don't leave the Vatican who live in the Vatican. It's
S2: a tiny space, and they don't go into the Italian
S2: state and, you know, even like the barber. I said,
S2: hold on. I tried not to look too good. You
S2: mean there's a barber in the Vatican for cardinals and archbishops?
S2: And so I got up early in the morning, and
S2: there it was very discreet. I mean, not a big
S2: barber or.
S1: A barber.
S2: Plate glass.
S1: Window.
S2: But it was clearly a barber's. And you went in
S2: and honestly, there was a cardinal having his hair shampooed. Now, see,
S2: it's really good barber for me because I'm bald. And
S2: every bishop, archbishop and cardinal are almost by definition bald.
S2: I therefore therefore.
S1: So this was the place for you.
S2: Therefore, they do bold haircuts very, very well. I mean,
S2: mine has gone a bit longer now, but but honestly,
S2: I came out feeling for once I'm not being insulted
S2: in the barber's. I'm not being just just barely with
S2: a bit, a bit, a bit of. Yeah, being being shaved,
S2: just a bit of scissors work and you're out. You know,
S2: we do your eyebrows as a way of sort of
S2: compensating because you have no hair. Mr..
S1: Then you found you.
S2: Found your place. I found.
S1: That was it.
S2: I found my.
S1: Barber.
S2: No, no, just the whole business of. You see, being
S2: being a non-married gentleman, age 69.
S1: Yes.
S2: You get fond of other such fellows, even though, as
S2: I say, some of them have been, you know, in
S2: their lives, sort of less than ideal in the way
S2: they functioned. And as I say, done a lot of damage.
S2: But yeah, the comedy of things remains interesting irrespective of.
S2: I mean, I wouldn't stretch it to Republicans in America,
S2: except in Texas, where you honestly could be in a
S2: room with Republicans, and they're just so nice and funny,
S2: and they just, oh my God, they're all Republicans. What
S2: am I doing here? So it's it's a problem. It's
S2: a lack of moral character that I have moral firmness.
S2: And I don't really know the difference between right and wrong.
S1: And you mean you don't know the.
S4: Difference between right and wrong?
S2: Well, I mean, if someone is Republican, they should clearly
S2: keep away from them. They're wrong. And then you suddenly
S2: find that you're enjoying something they're saying to you, and
S2: you're actually going to go to dinner in their house
S2: the next night.
S1: But that's the heart of why you're a writer, right?
S1: You know, I.
S2: Know, but I'm not proud.
S1: Of it. Well, okay. Well, I want to ask you
S1: about this because something else that you're not particularly proud of,
S1: but it's given a gift to the world, which is
S1: you said in an interview this is regarding, I believe,
S1: writing Brooklyn and Long Island that you were inspired, in
S1: a way, by your mother and her relatives. But you
S1: said there was something disgusting about mining your memories of
S1: them for a book. So what motivates you to.
S2: Know that that's a fleeting feeling sometimes. Oh, okay. And, um,
S2: a friend of mine who was a novelist ended up
S2: one day going to see his stepmother, about whom he'd
S2: written several books, and he hadn't seen her for years.
S2: She lived to be old, you know, and she looked
S2: at him. She opened the door and looked at him
S2: and said, there you are, still making money out of
S2: all our foibles. And there is an idea that if
S2: you have a child and you know the child must
S2: be a soccer player, that's good. But if the child
S2: tennis player good, but a novelist not good, because every
S2: little thing you do and say is now open and
S2: can now appear in print. And people say, oh, I
S2: didn't know that you about. You know. So yes, there
S2: was a there were a few moments when I would
S2: put something into a book. I think that, um, with Brooklyn,
S2: I had two aunts, my mother, two younger sisters, and
S2: one of them was more powerful than the other. And
S2: they both worked precisely in the named place where Rose
S2: works in Brooklyn, snag, Davis and Enniscorthy. So that's in
S2: the book. But what happens with two sisters like that is,
S2: the second one just is much more helpless and much more,
S2: I suppose. Um, less. Less active, less pushy. And so
S2: I did use that dynamic between the two, which I
S2: think they would both if they if they'd read the book,
S2: they were both dead by the time it came out,
S2: they would have immediately said, sure, that's us. Discussing is
S2: pretty strong, but maybe in a certain moment it is.
S2: If someone did it to me, I'd go nuts.
S1: Has it never happened?
S2: No.
S1: Here's what I want to ask you. Or you have
S1: a knack with writing about emotionally hobbled people is how
S1: I might call them. So many of your characters are,
S1: but really the one that springs to mind is Henry
S1: James and the master. He's unable to communicate his own feelings,
S1: his desires to other people, though he perhaps like yourself,
S1: call him, he does mine those right for his writing.
S1: He certainly is very well in touch with the vulnerabilities,
S1: the desires, the inconsistencies of other people. So tell me
S1: about this emotionally hobbled people. What is their appeal for you?
S2: Oh, you know, the way there are people who really
S2: tell you their feelings all the time so that if
S2: you were if you were dating somebody and they all
S2: the time told you their feelings, eventually they'd have to
S2: say to me, do you have any feelings? I mean,
S2: how do you how do you? Because you can't just say.
S1: Because you're the opposite. Is that what you mean?
S2: You are. Yeah. I would be very careful. And I
S2: would tell a lot of jokes, and I would, as
S2: I'm trying to do with you. And I would go
S2: on a lot about various things. And eventually someone would
S2: say to me, could you actually say something that you
S2: think might be true? And you get really shocked and
S2: you get really defensive. And of course you go, ah.
S2: What do you mean? Oh, you do all that? What
S2: do you mean, stuff? But I suppose it's a it's
S2: just a way. I consider it a form of good
S2: manners that you wouldn't go on about yourself and how
S2: you feel all the time. But again, that's a defence mechanism.
S1: So. Do you share? I know this is usually it's
S1: a lazy question for journalists, but it seems like it's
S1: a logical one to ask. Now is there some similarity perhaps,
S1: or something that you understand in Henry James at least
S1: the way you've written him with, you know, that that fear?
S1: I guess there's a fear really in him that you
S1: feel when you read it to, to communicate those.
S2: See, this thing has come up now called fear of intimacy,
S2: which certainly didn't exist when Henry James was going. And
S2: I don't have that, you know. And so but is.
S1: There a fear to communicate with other people?
S2: Those really look, look, it's a really, really simple matter
S2: that someone says to you, um, you know, I just, I,
S2: you know, even just say, just take the phrase I
S2: love you and you think, yeah, I'd like to say
S2: that too. And it comes up. It's in it's in
S2: Brooklyn where she doesn't, you know, and it's in actually,
S2: it's in Long Island. Just that phrase, I love you.
S2: I think just talking to someone as though you're in
S2: a pop song with them.
S5: Love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2: Like it's just not good enough. You have to find
S2: another way of speaking. But then if you don't say love,
S2: then if you don't say hold on. Are you not.
S2: Are you, are you not saying you love me? And
S2: then you know, but then what you really want is peace.
S2: Could that conversation stop? And could we have it tomorrow?
S2: I'm not say I'm not good at having this conversation
S2: in the morning. I'm not good at having them in
S2: the afternoon, and I'm not good at having the evening.
S2: Where do you think our relationship is going? I said, well.
S1: Is that your nightmare? Is that, is that is that like.
S2: Well, I'm actually thinking of going to Saint Kilda, you know,
S2: like I'm thinking of going to Bondi. That's where our
S2: relationship is going. It's going to Bondi. If you're coming
S2: with me and you know, there's a cost, but I
S2: find how other people think about that just completely beyond me,
S2: you know.
S1: As in the people that want to sort of interrogate
S1: that and know and have it.
S2: Stated. I feel I feel this and I feel that
S2: at some moments for you, I feel, I feel. Oh shut.
S5: Up.
S1: We'll be right back. Now, I wanted to ask you.
S1: You've also written about the dangers of nationalism. You know,
S1: I think you've written about Irish nationalism. So I'm just
S1: wondering what you think now about the rise of nationalism
S1: across the globe. You know, we're seeing it in Italy.
S1: We're seeing it in Germany. Is it a trend that
S1: worries you?
S2: Um. It's appalling. When the IRA began the campaign in
S2: the name of the Irish nation, just say in 1971, 72,
S2: at the beginning, it might have looked like they were
S2: defending their people, you know, against the British Army, against
S2: Protestants against. But slowly it realized that, no, no, they
S2: were on the rise and that they were doing this
S2: in the name of some spiritual thing, putting car bombs
S2: in the city. And, uh, I was 17 maybe, when
S2: I started to think about it. And I came from
S2: a nationalist family. My grandfather was imprisoned by the British
S2: after the 1916 rebellion. My uncle, you know. So there
S2: was a nationalist family and we were and and I suddenly, well,
S2: gradually and then suddenly, really over those few years began
S2: to think this is wrong, eh? Because putting a bomb
S2: in a car in a city and blowing up people
S2: is wrong. But B the ideology that only a strange,
S2: withered ideology could give rise to this. And what is
S2: the ideology? And therefore I just thought the whole idea
S2: of us, us just the word us, we Catholics or
S2: we Irish people? Or do you hate the British? Everyone
S2: in Ireland I know had a great time in England
S2: when they went there. If you wanted to see a
S2: band film or if you wanted to get condoms in
S2: the 70s, you went over from Wexford to Wales and
S2: my mother, when she was coming back from a little holiday,
S2: would come back with a big bag of corn for
S2: various people she knew. That's called England, you know. The
S2: enemy suddenly becomes a great place for your mother.
S1: Sounds like a badass.
S2: So? So, in other words, a lot of, um, the
S2: things you were brought up believing about your own nation.
S1: Yes.
S2: Just just didn't didn't seemed to me that it would
S2: only cause further grief and didn't mean anything. So. Yeah.
S2: I mean, what's happening? Look, this business of migrants is
S2: is really. See, politicians are afraid to make the argument
S2: migrants are good. They make a society. What's the best
S2: place to live? The place where there are most migrants.
S2: Now how come? And this idea of migrants as the
S2: enemy migrants are going to take your job because you
S2: were so busy picking apples and strawberries. That was your job.
S2: Your children wanted to do this too. They have PhDs
S2: in picking apples and people are stealing your picking apple job.
S2: Give me a break. You know, you go into a
S2: nursing home. Who's there all night? The Lithuanian nurse. Because
S2: the Irish nurse doesn't want to do that job. And so? So.
S2: But even even if people are coming at the top
S2: level to be our doctors, our engineers, our, you know. Yeah,
S2: it's absolutely great to have. But, you know, the better
S2: the more migrants, the better the society. So how come
S2: then we let these groups emerge in which and I
S2: have to say, um, there was a man called Malcolm
S2: Turnbull who turned our stomachs in the world by saying
S2: that no one could ever come into Australia who would
S2: come by sea illegally, and that he would never be
S2: let in even once. There would be no lift on that.
S2: And he got Obama to agree to take people he
S2: was keeping on an island. But, I mean, every country
S2: did this in one way or another. There are a
S2: lot of deportations from Ireland. There's no point in blaming
S2: Malcolm Turnbull, but I do. And but but I mean,
S2: the stuff that's going on in America at the moment
S2: and the stuff that's going on in Germany and the
S2: stuff that's going on in Spain and France over these outsiders,
S2: these strangers in our house, these migrants, these men, they're
S2: going to take our what? Take our what? And they're
S2: going to actually build a great society. I mean, can
S2: you imagine Yorkshire without its Pakistani and Indian populations? What
S2: would you eat? So like, this has to stop this
S2: nonsense about migrants because it's not true. And it seems
S2: to me very close to a demonization, for example, of
S2: Jewish people in Germany and Poland in the 1920s and
S2: 30s anti-Semitism began with the Big Lie. And this is
S2: an equal. I mean, obviously it's not equal. You know,
S2: nothing in history comes twice. But nonetheless, having to listen
S2: to this nonsense and watching liberal politicians being mealy mouthed
S2: about it and saying, oh, well, we do have to watch.
S2: You know, we have to be very careful about including
S2: in Ireland, our migration policy. We have to limit it,
S2: and deportations even. This man, Keir Starmer, said something so
S2: horrible the other day he talked about he didn't want
S2: England to be a country of strangers. Well, I think
S2: I know what he means. It might mean Irish people.
S2: He might mean people from the Caribbean. Are they strangers
S2: in England? Yeah. You know. And so he's just looking
S2: for votes. Cheap votes. Anyway, that's my rant on that.
S1: No. That's incredible. I mean, it's amazing to see you
S1: so impassioned because. Because it's obviously something you care so
S1: deeply about.
S2: If Trump didn't have this enemy, what would he be
S2: talking about?
S1: It makes me wonder what you feel now, as you know,
S1: because of course, like myself. And this is why I'm
S1: obsessed with this. I'm from Canada and I live here.
S1: Like so many people, of course, around the world, so
S1: many of our listeners will be the same. They're from
S1: one place, they're from another. I mean, Australia is a
S1: country of migrants, of course, and you live half your
S1: time in Los Angeles. So does that make you feel
S1: more Irish, though? Because, you know, I know Mike Myers,
S1: he's a Canadian comedian and he lives in America. And
S1: he said, there's no one more Canadian than an expatriate Canadian.
S1: And I definitely fall into that cliché. Is that you column?
S2: Are you I mean, the thing that everyone Irish recognizes
S2: and that maybe what Canadians recognize too, is that you
S2: go to JFK in New York and you're getting the
S2: flight back to Dublin. Yes, it's usually around 6:00 in
S2: the evening, which means getting to the airport is such
S2: a nightmare. Yes. And you're so worried about getting to
S2: the airport being late that you forget what you're going
S2: to witness now are the Irish, and you're going to
S2: see them and they're going to talk like you. Some
S2: they're going to look like you and they're going to
S2: behave like you, meaning that if they're pushing a cart along,
S2: they're never sure that this is the right thing to do.
S2: They have a slightly worried look. They don't deal well
S2: with authority. They're afraid or they're slightly aggressive. The men,
S2: you know, and the men have that sort of that
S2: sort of soft eyes that you get in Irish men.
S2: But it could be a very hard jaw.
S6: And what are the soft.
S1: Eyes telegraphing vulnerability.
S6: Like, what is it?
S2: Yeah. You're home. It's all fine. You're all. We're all
S2: together in this space. The cabin crew are all Irish.
S2: Still on the air Lingus flights are all Irish. So
S2: the woman in the middle of the night, as she's
S2: passing you by, looks at you and says. Would you
S2: like more tea? And straight from home. It's like exactly
S2: what they used to say to you at home. Would
S2: you like more tea?
S6: No. Is this a good feeling or a bad feeling?
S6: It's completely. When you first described it honestly. It's.
S2: It is. It is frighteningly good. You know, suddenly you
S2: realise all this stuff. I've been dealing with all these Americans,
S2: and they're like their voices and their driving. Driving the
S2: wrong side of the road. And they're like. They're just constant.
S2: Like being being being American. It's so you can breathe
S2: and you don't. You realise the amount of pressure you've
S2: been under before and you're underplaying. It doesn't last, by
S2: the way. It's quite a false piece of elation, but
S2: it's real and everybody knows it. But it doesn't last.
S1: It makes me wonder whether you have been thinking about
S1: people who are exiled from their homes or threatened with exile.
S1: You know, whether it's people in Ukraine or Gaza. Is
S1: this something that you've been thinking much about?
S2: I mean, I think part of the impulse behind Brooklyn was,
S2: was to show what it's like to have to move
S2: for economic reasons, in this case, to another country. The
S2: initial loneliness, the strangeness, the homesickness, the sort of wrong
S2: decisions made. And so, so that idea that migration itself
S2: is not something you do in order to take things
S2: from people. It brings its own pain. I think all
S2: of us who come from societies where we can have
S2: passports and where we can easily move from one place
S2: to another, have to be aware that all around us
S2: are now people who are moving for really good reasons,
S2: and the idea that we're prejudiced against them or we're
S2: blaming them for something or we're demonizing them is really horrible,
S2: especially since we ourselves are so privileged.
S1: Colm, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here.
S2: Thank you very much. Thank you.
S1: Thank you. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced
S1: by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Bella
S1: Anne Sanchez. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
S1: is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes
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S1: Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
S1: Thanks for listening.