WEBVTT - 'Brooklyn' author Colm Tóibín on belonging 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.960 From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:11.000 This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday, 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:17.920 May 26th. Colm Toibin is quite simply, one of the 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:22.280 most revered writers in modern literature. As one of his 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.440 fellow authors once put of Toibin, who has been shortlisted 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.240 for the Booker Prize multiple times, he's there when the 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.800 thorn enters the skin. And so he is his international 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.280 best selling novel. Brooklyn takes us inside the mind of 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.360 Eilis Lacey, a meek young woman who is pushed by 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.559 her family against her own wishes to emigrate from a 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.839 small Irish town to the United States in the 1950s. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.680 Prepared only by a family of women who, as Tobin writes, 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.800 could do everything except say out loud what it was 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.440 they were thinking. The book later became a hit movie 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.090 starring Saoirse Ronan, who won plaudits for playing out the 0:01:02.090 --> 0:01:05.090 agonies of trying to adapt to the customs of a 0:01:05.090 --> 0:01:08.770 strange new land. When we meet Eilish 20 years later 0:01:08.770 --> 0:01:12.530 in Tobin's latest novel, Long Island, she again feels the 0:01:12.530 --> 0:01:16.090 pull of Ireland after she discovers that her American husband 0:01:16.290 --> 0:01:20.850 has fathered a child with another woman. So what does Tobin, 0:01:20.890 --> 0:01:24.970 who has lived in Barcelona, Los Angeles, New York and 0:01:24.970 --> 0:01:28.130 Dublin make of our yearning to belong and how it 0:01:28.130 --> 0:01:32.370 can twist us internally? How it can drive otherwise rational 0:01:32.370 --> 0:01:38.809 people to dam entire groups of people. Today, Colm Toibin, 0:01:38.850 --> 0:01:41.170 who is in Australia for the Sydney Writers Festival and 0:01:41.170 --> 0:01:45.130 the Melbourne Writers Festival, gives his insights into Gaza, Donald 0:01:45.170 --> 0:01:48.810 Trump and the new pope and the times when even 0:01:48.810 --> 0:01:57.410 he can't find the right words in his own life. So, Callum, 0:01:57.410 --> 0:01:59.170 the first thing I really want to ask you about 0:01:59.170 --> 0:02:02.430 is the issue of belonging. It's something I'm super passionate 0:02:02.430 --> 0:02:05.670 about myself and so many of the main characters in 0:02:05.670 --> 0:02:08.190 your book struggle with this. Like where do they belong? 0:02:08.350 --> 0:02:10.790 Is this something that comes from a personal struggle? Like, 0:02:10.910 --> 0:02:12.389 do you struggle with this feeling? 0:02:12.870 --> 0:02:15.310 You see, I think it comes from a real rootedness 0:02:15.470 --> 0:02:17.990 that some of the characters also feel. In other words, 0:02:17.990 --> 0:02:21.390 that you're from a town. I'm from Enniscorthy, County Wexford. 0:02:21.630 --> 0:02:25.109 My parents were born there. My grandparents were born there. 0:02:25.270 --> 0:02:27.590 And things go back further than that if you bothered 0:02:27.590 --> 0:02:31.470 to investigate. My father was a teacher and my two 0:02:31.470 --> 0:02:33.990 sisters were teachers. So that meant that we had a 0:02:33.990 --> 0:02:39.270 relationship with the town. And that's where I'm from. And 0:02:39.270 --> 0:02:41.990 therefore it means that either you make a decision early 0:02:41.990 --> 0:02:44.710 on in your life, and it's about sensibility, that there 0:02:44.750 --> 0:02:46.269 are a lot of people I know who just wanted 0:02:46.270 --> 0:02:48.430 to stay in the town, love the rhythms of it, 0:02:48.430 --> 0:02:51.550 love the years going by, just love the next generation coming. 0:02:51.590 --> 0:02:53.350 And then there are people like me who just looked 0:02:53.350 --> 0:02:56.030 at the main road very, very carefully at a very 0:02:56.030 --> 0:02:58.829 young age and loved the train going to Dublin if 0:02:58.830 --> 0:03:02.240 anyone was going anywhere, if a circus came, you know, 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.080 like if a, you know, if a missionary came saying, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.600 Come to Africa and join the missions, I would go 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:10.880 have gone anywhere and I'm still like that. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.480 And so tell me, I mean, is any of that 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.399 rooted in the fact that you're a gay man who 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.560 grew up in the 1950s and 1960s in Ireland? I 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.119 can't imagine that might have been necessarily the easiest place 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.600 to be with the Catholic Church ruling so much there. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:25.200 Is any of that related? 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.800 Um, I don't think so. I mean, even when you 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.239 say you're gay, man, I wonder who are you talking about? 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.359 Because of course, you spent your time thinking you were 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.320 not gay. You just preferred blokes, you know? In other words, 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.760 the identity tag came later, and it would have been 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.480 so afraid if someone had said you were any. You're 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.040 a queer or anything, but you felt I'm not a queer. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.320 I just like blokes. Um, the Catholic Church wasn't the 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.200 problem as much as the general society where this thing 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.960 was unmentionable. It wasn't really that it was illegal. Of 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.500 course it was illegal. But it wasn't just illegal. Legal. 0:03:59.060 --> 0:04:01.900 No one said anything about it, so it didn't really 0:04:01.900 --> 0:04:04.260 oppress you in any way that was obvious to you. 0:04:04.300 --> 0:04:06.340 It oppressed you in ways that were much more serious 0:04:06.340 --> 0:04:08.940 because it was all about silences. It was all about 0:04:08.940 --> 0:04:12.740 that strange oppression. Where do not mention this. And then 0:04:12.740 --> 0:04:15.700 later on don't tell so and so and oh my God, 0:04:15.700 --> 0:04:18.820 what will so-and-so think? And and then everyone got over it. 0:04:18.860 --> 0:04:20.660 I mean, what's really irritating in a way, is that 0:04:20.660 --> 0:04:22.979 everybody got over it, and you wonder why they couldn't 0:04:22.980 --> 0:04:25.300 have got over it a generation earlier, since they're so 0:04:25.300 --> 0:04:27.780 easy now about it. And, you know, it's really fashionable 0:04:27.779 --> 0:04:30.820 to be queer. And people's grannies love them because they're queer. 0:04:30.860 --> 0:04:34.340 Why didn't their grannies try that out, like when in 1962? 0:04:34.380 --> 0:04:36.380 Or why had that never been a problem to begin with? 0:04:36.420 --> 0:04:38.620 Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Exactly why that. 0:04:38.620 --> 0:04:38.820 Would be. 0:04:38.820 --> 0:04:42.060 More ideal. Yeah, yeah. But, um, oddly enough, the church 0:04:42.100 --> 0:04:44.180 is not the problem. The church is on the run, 0:04:44.220 --> 0:04:46.779 you know, and we have them on the run. And 0:04:47.060 --> 0:04:49.700 I like this new pope. I just think he's, um. Well, 0:04:49.700 --> 0:04:51.179 he's the same age as me, and I like anyone 0:04:51.180 --> 0:04:53.779 who's the same age as me, but I, um, he's 0:04:53.820 --> 0:04:57.740 I think he's a quiet, spoken, thoughtful person. And in politics, 0:04:57.740 --> 0:05:00.670 that would be such a relief. After some of the 0:05:00.670 --> 0:05:03.469 noise we've been hearing from some of the buffoons. I 0:05:03.510 --> 0:05:04.589 won't name him. 0:05:04.630 --> 0:05:05.750 Well, you not know. 0:05:06.029 --> 0:05:07.070 But he's called Donald Trump. 0:05:07.790 --> 0:05:11.630 Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Well, 0:05:11.630 --> 0:05:13.550 I wanted to ask you about the new pope because 0:05:13.550 --> 0:05:16.190 you have actually written a lot about Catholicism. You wrote 0:05:16.190 --> 0:05:18.510 a travel book, The Sign of the cross Travels in 0:05:18.510 --> 0:05:20.710 Catholic Europe. You wrote a play about the Virgin Mary, 0:05:21.029 --> 0:05:23.590 but then you also once wrote in an essay, one 0:05:23.589 --> 0:05:26.349 of the purposes of literature, as Joyce made clear, is 0:05:26.350 --> 0:05:28.590 to put religion in its place. So where would you 0:05:28.589 --> 0:05:29.950 put religion if you could? 0:05:30.310 --> 0:05:31.909 And I don't know. 0:05:32.190 --> 0:05:35.550 And I was in the Vatican recently, and I realized 0:05:35.550 --> 0:05:37.670 that I'd been growing fond of the place, and I'd 0:05:37.670 --> 0:05:40.950 been growing very tolerant about Holy Mother and the one 0:05:40.990 --> 0:05:45.270 true religion and the I suppose it has to do 0:05:45.270 --> 0:05:49.390 now with the fact that in America, the only voice 0:05:49.390 --> 0:05:52.230 of sanity now would be something like the bishop of, 0:05:52.270 --> 0:05:55.070 you know, Trump really had it in for Pope Francis 0:05:55.510 --> 0:06:00.450 and he in December just before he was inaugurated, he 0:06:00.450 --> 0:06:04.089 appointed an ambassador to the Vatican, who really had written 0:06:04.089 --> 0:06:08.690 against France and almost railed against Francis and Francis in retaliation, 0:06:08.690 --> 0:06:12.489 in January of this year appointed a new Cardinal Archbishop 0:06:12.490 --> 0:06:15.490 of Washington, D.C., who was in San Diego. And just 0:06:15.490 --> 0:06:17.610 before he left San Diego in January, he led a 0:06:17.610 --> 0:06:21.130 march of migrants against Trump. This man, called McElroy then 0:06:21.130 --> 0:06:24.770 arrived in triumph in Washington, DC. So there is a 0:06:24.770 --> 0:06:29.410 war going on between this administration and the certainly Francis, 0:06:29.410 --> 0:06:32.450 but also now in a much more thoughtful and I 0:06:32.450 --> 0:06:35.170 would think, much more dangerous. I mean, I think that 0:06:35.570 --> 0:06:39.970 this new man, Leo, does not suffer fools. You know, 0:06:40.010 --> 0:06:41.810 in Chicago. Yeah. 0:06:41.890 --> 0:06:42.410 South side. 0:06:42.410 --> 0:06:45.290 I think so. And he's lived in Peru. Meaning, if 0:06:45.330 --> 0:06:48.450 you think you know what this is about, you don't. 0:06:48.490 --> 0:06:51.330 I do. You know, all those years in working with 0:06:51.330 --> 0:06:54.330 the poor people in Peru during a very difficult time. 0:06:54.650 --> 0:06:56.210 And this is so interesting to me. So I want 0:06:56.250 --> 0:06:59.099 to know about your newfound fondness of the Vatican, or 0:06:59.100 --> 0:07:02.260 perhaps a greater fondness for Catholicism in general. I don't know, 0:07:02.260 --> 0:07:04.420 I'd love you to tell me, because you did write 0:07:04.420 --> 0:07:06.940 an essay on the Ferns Report into clerical sex abuse 0:07:06.940 --> 0:07:09.540 in the Diocese of Ferns and Wexford. So do you 0:07:09.540 --> 0:07:12.220 forgive the Catholic Church for those abuses? What is with 0:07:12.220 --> 0:07:14.020 this new fondness for you? It's so interesting, I know. 0:07:14.220 --> 0:07:17.580 I mean, I mean that that is an outstanding matter. And, uh, 0:07:17.940 --> 0:07:21.940 for for the victims to feel that somehow not not 0:07:21.940 --> 0:07:25.100 only are they being ignored, but as though they're being 0:07:25.100 --> 0:07:27.700 written out of the current agenda. In other words, here 0:07:27.740 --> 0:07:30.260 is me I'm talking all about, you know, the new 0:07:30.260 --> 0:07:32.500 pope and his relationship with Trump. But in the meantime, 0:07:32.500 --> 0:07:35.260 there are people who are really hurting because actually it 0:07:35.260 --> 0:07:36.620 hasn't gone away for them. 0:07:36.660 --> 0:07:37.700 We're talking about the victims of. 0:07:37.700 --> 0:07:40.740 I am, I am. And I mean, in Ireland, this 0:07:40.740 --> 0:07:42.900 is this is a really serious matter. It hasn't gone 0:07:42.900 --> 0:07:44.740 away for them. And there are other countries where it 0:07:44.740 --> 0:07:50.220 hasn't even begun to be investigated. And every, every single 0:07:50.260 --> 0:07:53.220 time it's looked at, there was obviously a secret rule 0:07:53.220 --> 0:07:56.640 the church had. Do not go to the police. We 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.640 are above civil society. We are above the law. And 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.320 what to do with the priest is talk to him 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.760 very severely and move him to another parish and tell 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.760 no one. And this caused untold grief. It ruined people's 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.440 lives and they still haven't come clean on. This was 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.080 what we did because it was Vatican policy. This came 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.400 from on high, you know. Stop blaming individual bishops, although 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.760 they are to blame, but actually from on high. How 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.040 come in no place did they go to the police? 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.920 So tell me. So how do you reconcile that with 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.600 what is the fondness that you know, that you felt 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:32.120 when you were in the Vatican? Because this is what 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.280 I love about what you write, which is, of course, 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.240 what we all experience with humanity, no matter who we are, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.440 is that life is complicated, right? You know, we all 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.760 contain hypocrisies and things that make no sense. I'm not 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.760 calling you a hypocrite, but how do you reconcile those feelings? 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:48.719 What was it that you felt in the Vatican? 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.920 Someone. I was having lunch with someone. But they said 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.800 to me just casually, you know, a lot of people 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.050 don't leave the Vatican who live in the Vatican. It's 0:08:56.050 --> 0:08:58.690 a tiny space, and they don't go into the Italian 0:08:58.690 --> 0:09:01.650 state and, you know, even like the barber. I said, 0:09:01.650 --> 0:09:03.930 hold on. I tried not to look too good. You 0:09:03.929 --> 0:09:07.850 mean there's a barber in the Vatican for cardinals and archbishops? 0:09:07.890 --> 0:09:09.930 And so I got up early in the morning, and 0:09:09.929 --> 0:09:12.170 there it was very discreet. I mean, not a big 0:09:12.170 --> 0:09:13.250 barber or. 0:09:13.250 --> 0:09:13.530 A barber. 0:09:13.530 --> 0:09:13.970 Plate glass. 0:09:13.970 --> 0:09:14.330 Window. 0:09:14.570 --> 0:09:16.290 But it was clearly a barber's. And you went in 0:09:16.330 --> 0:09:20.450 and honestly, there was a cardinal having his hair shampooed. Now, see, 0:09:20.450 --> 0:09:23.770 it's really good barber for me because I'm bald. And 0:09:23.809 --> 0:09:28.450 every bishop, archbishop and cardinal are almost by definition bald. 0:09:28.850 --> 0:09:30.130 I therefore therefore. 0:09:30.170 --> 0:09:31.209 So this was the place for you. 0:09:31.290 --> 0:09:34.850 Therefore, they do bold haircuts very, very well. I mean, 0:09:34.890 --> 0:09:36.450 mine has gone a bit longer now, but but honestly, 0:09:36.450 --> 0:09:39.330 I came out feeling for once I'm not being insulted 0:09:39.330 --> 0:09:41.890 in the barber's. I'm not being just just barely with 0:09:41.890 --> 0:09:43.770 a bit, a bit, a bit of. Yeah, being being shaved, 0:09:43.770 --> 0:09:45.930 just a bit of scissors work and you're out. You know, 0:09:45.970 --> 0:09:48.090 we do your eyebrows as a way of sort of 0:09:48.130 --> 0:09:50.530 compensating because you have no hair. Mr.. 0:09:51.250 --> 0:09:52.050 Then you found you. 0:09:52.050 --> 0:09:53.570 Found your place. I found. 0:09:53.610 --> 0:09:53.970 That was it. 0:09:54.010 --> 0:09:55.090 I found my. 0:09:55.190 --> 0:09:55.510 Barber. 0:09:55.830 --> 0:09:58.270 No, no, just the whole business of. You see, being 0:09:58.350 --> 0:10:01.270 being a non-married gentleman, age 69. 0:10:01.309 --> 0:10:01.869 Yes. 0:10:01.910 --> 0:10:05.030 You get fond of other such fellows, even though, as 0:10:05.030 --> 0:10:08.189 I say, some of them have been, you know, in 0:10:08.230 --> 0:10:10.990 their lives, sort of less than ideal in the way 0:10:10.990 --> 0:10:13.830 they functioned. And as I say, done a lot of damage. 0:10:13.830 --> 0:10:19.589 But yeah, the comedy of things remains interesting irrespective of. 0:10:19.750 --> 0:10:22.470 I mean, I wouldn't stretch it to Republicans in America, 0:10:22.910 --> 0:10:24.949 except in Texas, where you honestly could be in a 0:10:24.950 --> 0:10:27.030 room with Republicans, and they're just so nice and funny, 0:10:27.030 --> 0:10:29.390 and they just, oh my God, they're all Republicans. What 0:10:29.390 --> 0:10:32.670 am I doing here? So it's it's a problem. It's 0:10:32.670 --> 0:10:37.310 a lack of moral character that I have moral firmness. 0:10:37.950 --> 0:10:41.030 And I don't really know the difference between right and wrong. 0:10:41.630 --> 0:10:43.310 And you mean you don't know the. 0:10:43.309 --> 0:10:44.750 Difference between right and wrong? 0:10:44.790 --> 0:10:47.390 Well, I mean, if someone is Republican, they should clearly 0:10:47.390 --> 0:10:49.790 keep away from them. They're wrong. And then you suddenly 0:10:49.790 --> 0:10:51.790 find that you're enjoying something they're saying to you, and 0:10:51.790 --> 0:10:54.070 you're actually going to go to dinner in their house 0:10:54.070 --> 0:10:54.760 the next night. 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.680 But that's the heart of why you're a writer, right? 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:57.200 You know, I. 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.040 Know, but I'm not proud. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.880 Of it. Well, okay. Well, I want to ask you 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:02.200 about this because something else that you're not particularly proud of, 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.320 but it's given a gift to the world, which is 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.760 you said in an interview this is regarding, I believe, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.360 writing Brooklyn and Long Island that you were inspired, in 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.920 a way, by your mother and her relatives. But you 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.120 said there was something disgusting about mining your memories of 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.520 them for a book. So what motivates you to. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.000 Know that that's a fleeting feeling sometimes. Oh, okay. And, um, 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.839 a friend of mine who was a novelist ended up 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.360 one day going to see his stepmother, about whom he'd 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.240 written several books, and he hadn't seen her for years. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:33.320 She lived to be old, you know, and she looked 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:34.800 at him. She opened the door and looked at him 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.000 and said, there you are, still making money out of 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.800 all our foibles. And there is an idea that if 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.120 you have a child and you know the child must 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.840 be a soccer player, that's good. But if the child 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.040 tennis player good, but a novelist not good, because every 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.600 little thing you do and say is now open and 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.700 can now appear in print. And people say, oh, I 0:11:55.700 --> 0:11:58.780 didn't know that you about. You know. So yes, there 0:11:58.780 --> 0:12:01.460 was a there were a few moments when I would 0:12:01.460 --> 0:12:04.860 put something into a book. I think that, um, with Brooklyn, 0:12:05.220 --> 0:12:07.740 I had two aunts, my mother, two younger sisters, and 0:12:07.740 --> 0:12:10.179 one of them was more powerful than the other. And 0:12:10.179 --> 0:12:13.580 they both worked precisely in the named place where Rose 0:12:13.580 --> 0:12:16.820 works in Brooklyn, snag, Davis and Enniscorthy. So that's in 0:12:16.820 --> 0:12:19.500 the book. But what happens with two sisters like that is, 0:12:19.500 --> 0:12:24.100 the second one just is much more helpless and much more, 0:12:24.300 --> 0:12:30.980 I suppose. Um, less. Less active, less pushy. And so 0:12:30.980 --> 0:12:33.980 I did use that dynamic between the two, which I 0:12:33.980 --> 0:12:36.460 think they would both if they if they'd read the book, 0:12:36.460 --> 0:12:38.020 they were both dead by the time it came out, 0:12:38.059 --> 0:12:41.540 they would have immediately said, sure, that's us. Discussing is 0:12:41.540 --> 0:12:44.820 pretty strong, but maybe in a certain moment it is. 0:12:44.820 --> 0:12:46.820 If someone did it to me, I'd go nuts. 0:12:46.860 --> 0:12:47.980 Has it never happened? 0:12:48.020 --> 0:12:48.420 No. 0:12:48.460 --> 0:12:49.900 Here's what I want to ask you. Or you have 0:12:49.900 --> 0:12:52.780 a knack with writing about emotionally hobbled people is how 0:12:52.780 --> 0:12:55.230 I might call them. So many of your characters are, 0:12:55.230 --> 0:12:57.390 but really the one that springs to mind is Henry 0:12:57.390 --> 0:13:00.510 James and the master. He's unable to communicate his own feelings, 0:13:00.510 --> 0:13:04.030 his desires to other people, though he perhaps like yourself, 0:13:04.070 --> 0:13:06.310 call him, he does mine those right for his writing. 0:13:06.309 --> 0:13:09.469 He certainly is very well in touch with the vulnerabilities, 0:13:09.470 --> 0:13:12.830 the desires, the inconsistencies of other people. So tell me 0:13:12.830 --> 0:13:16.630 about this emotionally hobbled people. What is their appeal for you? 0:13:16.830 --> 0:13:20.150 Oh, you know, the way there are people who really 0:13:20.150 --> 0:13:22.870 tell you their feelings all the time so that if 0:13:22.910 --> 0:13:25.950 you were if you were dating somebody and they all 0:13:25.990 --> 0:13:27.830 the time told you their feelings, eventually they'd have to 0:13:27.830 --> 0:13:30.550 say to me, do you have any feelings? I mean, 0:13:30.590 --> 0:13:33.230 how do you how do you? Because you can't just say. 0:13:33.230 --> 0:13:34.589 Because you're the opposite. Is that what you mean? 0:13:34.630 --> 0:13:38.510 You are. Yeah. I would be very careful. And I 0:13:38.550 --> 0:13:40.469 would tell a lot of jokes, and I would, as 0:13:40.470 --> 0:13:42.670 I'm trying to do with you. And I would go 0:13:42.670 --> 0:13:45.150 on a lot about various things. And eventually someone would 0:13:45.150 --> 0:13:49.829 say to me, could you actually say something that you 0:13:49.830 --> 0:13:53.050 think might be true? And you get really shocked and 0:13:53.050 --> 0:13:55.610 you get really defensive. And of course you go, ah. 0:13:56.050 --> 0:13:57.730 What do you mean? Oh, you do all that? What 0:13:57.730 --> 0:14:01.010 do you mean, stuff? But I suppose it's a it's 0:14:01.010 --> 0:14:03.329 just a way. I consider it a form of good 0:14:03.330 --> 0:14:05.610 manners that you wouldn't go on about yourself and how 0:14:05.610 --> 0:14:08.170 you feel all the time. But again, that's a defence mechanism. 0:14:08.170 --> 0:14:10.809 So. Do you share? I know this is usually it's 0:14:10.809 --> 0:14:12.929 a lazy question for journalists, but it seems like it's 0:14:12.929 --> 0:14:16.689 a logical one to ask. Now is there some similarity perhaps, 0:14:16.690 --> 0:14:19.610 or something that you understand in Henry James at least 0:14:19.610 --> 0:14:23.170 the way you've written him with, you know, that that fear? 0:14:23.170 --> 0:14:25.010 I guess there's a fear really in him that you 0:14:25.010 --> 0:14:27.050 feel when you read it to, to communicate those. 0:14:27.210 --> 0:14:29.410 See, this thing has come up now called fear of intimacy, 0:14:29.410 --> 0:14:32.010 which certainly didn't exist when Henry James was going. And 0:14:32.010 --> 0:14:34.730 I don't have that, you know. And so but is. 0:14:34.730 --> 0:14:36.370 There a fear to communicate with other people? 0:14:36.410 --> 0:14:38.970 Those really look, look, it's a really, really simple matter 0:14:38.970 --> 0:14:43.530 that someone says to you, um, you know, I just, I, 0:14:43.690 --> 0:14:46.130 you know, even just say, just take the phrase I 0:14:46.130 --> 0:14:48.330 love you and you think, yeah, I'd like to say 0:14:48.330 --> 0:14:51.850 that too. And it comes up. It's in it's in 0:14:51.980 --> 0:14:54.540 Brooklyn where she doesn't, you know, and it's in actually, 0:14:54.540 --> 0:14:57.540 it's in Long Island. Just that phrase, I love you. 0:14:57.540 --> 0:15:00.220 I think just talking to someone as though you're in 0:15:00.220 --> 0:15:01.340 a pop song with them. 0:15:01.580 --> 0:15:04.380 Love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:15:04.420 --> 0:15:06.380 Like it's just not good enough. You have to find 0:15:06.380 --> 0:15:08.580 another way of speaking. But then if you don't say love, 0:15:08.900 --> 0:15:11.180 then if you don't say hold on. Are you not. 0:15:11.220 --> 0:15:14.420 Are you, are you not saying you love me? And 0:15:14.460 --> 0:15:17.660 then you know, but then what you really want is peace. 0:15:18.060 --> 0:15:20.300 Could that conversation stop? And could we have it tomorrow? 0:15:20.340 --> 0:15:22.460 I'm not say I'm not good at having this conversation 0:15:22.460 --> 0:15:24.380 in the morning. I'm not good at having them in 0:15:24.380 --> 0:15:26.660 the afternoon, and I'm not good at having the evening. 0:15:26.900 --> 0:15:29.740 Where do you think our relationship is going? I said, well. 0:15:29.780 --> 0:15:31.820 Is that your nightmare? Is that, is that is that like. 0:15:31.860 --> 0:15:34.740 Well, I'm actually thinking of going to Saint Kilda, you know, 0:15:34.940 --> 0:15:37.260 like I'm thinking of going to Bondi. That's where our 0:15:37.260 --> 0:15:39.380 relationship is going. It's going to Bondi. If you're coming 0:15:39.380 --> 0:15:42.180 with me and you know, there's a cost, but I 0:15:42.460 --> 0:15:45.700 find how other people think about that just completely beyond me, 0:15:45.740 --> 0:15:46.060 you know. 0:15:46.100 --> 0:15:47.979 As in the people that want to sort of interrogate 0:15:47.980 --> 0:15:49.300 that and know and have it. 0:15:49.300 --> 0:15:51.720 Stated. I feel I feel this and I feel that 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.720 at some moments for you, I feel, I feel. Oh shut. 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:55.040 Up. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:08.800 We'll be right back. Now, I wanted to ask you. 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.960 You've also written about the dangers of nationalism. You know, 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.240 I think you've written about Irish nationalism. So I'm just 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.920 wondering what you think now about the rise of nationalism 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.080 across the globe. You know, we're seeing it in Italy. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.560 We're seeing it in Germany. Is it a trend that 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:24.280 worries you? 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.480 Um. It's appalling. When the IRA began the campaign in 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.320 the name of the Irish nation, just say in 1971, 72, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.000 at the beginning, it might have looked like they were 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.600 defending their people, you know, against the British Army, against 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.720 Protestants against. But slowly it realized that, no, no, they 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.560 were on the rise and that they were doing this 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.840 in the name of some spiritual thing, putting car bombs 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.960 in the city. And, uh, I was 17 maybe, when 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:50.800 I started to think about it. And I came from 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.450 a nationalist family. My grandfather was imprisoned by the British 0:16:53.450 --> 0:16:56.330 after the 1916 rebellion. My uncle, you know. So there 0:16:56.330 --> 0:17:00.650 was a nationalist family and we were and and I suddenly, well, 0:17:00.770 --> 0:17:03.690 gradually and then suddenly, really over those few years began 0:17:03.690 --> 0:17:07.170 to think this is wrong, eh? Because putting a bomb 0:17:07.170 --> 0:17:08.770 in a car in a city and blowing up people 0:17:08.770 --> 0:17:13.409 is wrong. But B the ideology that only a strange, 0:17:13.450 --> 0:17:17.130 withered ideology could give rise to this. And what is 0:17:17.130 --> 0:17:20.570 the ideology? And therefore I just thought the whole idea 0:17:20.570 --> 0:17:25.370 of us, us just the word us, we Catholics or 0:17:25.369 --> 0:17:29.090 we Irish people? Or do you hate the British? Everyone 0:17:29.090 --> 0:17:30.889 in Ireland I know had a great time in England 0:17:30.890 --> 0:17:32.530 when they went there. If you wanted to see a 0:17:32.530 --> 0:17:34.890 band film or if you wanted to get condoms in 0:17:34.890 --> 0:17:38.610 the 70s, you went over from Wexford to Wales and 0:17:38.609 --> 0:17:41.090 my mother, when she was coming back from a little holiday, 0:17:41.090 --> 0:17:42.690 would come back with a big bag of corn for 0:17:42.690 --> 0:17:45.450 various people she knew. That's called England, you know. The 0:17:45.490 --> 0:17:47.889 enemy suddenly becomes a great place for your mother. 0:17:47.890 --> 0:17:48.770 Sounds like a badass. 0:17:48.810 --> 0:17:51.230 So? So, in other words, a lot of, um, the 0:17:51.230 --> 0:17:53.590 things you were brought up believing about your own nation. 0:17:53.630 --> 0:17:53.950 Yes. 0:17:53.990 --> 0:17:57.350 Just just didn't didn't seemed to me that it would 0:17:57.350 --> 0:18:00.550 only cause further grief and didn't mean anything. So. Yeah. 0:18:00.590 --> 0:18:04.870 I mean, what's happening? Look, this business of migrants is 0:18:05.510 --> 0:18:08.470 is really. See, politicians are afraid to make the argument 0:18:08.470 --> 0:18:13.230 migrants are good. They make a society. What's the best 0:18:13.230 --> 0:18:16.070 place to live? The place where there are most migrants. 0:18:16.109 --> 0:18:18.470 Now how come? And this idea of migrants as the 0:18:18.470 --> 0:18:20.070 enemy migrants are going to take your job because you 0:18:20.070 --> 0:18:22.950 were so busy picking apples and strawberries. That was your job. 0:18:22.950 --> 0:18:25.429 Your children wanted to do this too. They have PhDs 0:18:25.430 --> 0:18:28.389 in picking apples and people are stealing your picking apple job. 0:18:28.390 --> 0:18:29.949 Give me a break. You know, you go into a 0:18:29.950 --> 0:18:33.390 nursing home. Who's there all night? The Lithuanian nurse. Because 0:18:33.390 --> 0:18:36.310 the Irish nurse doesn't want to do that job. And so? So. 0:18:36.350 --> 0:18:38.350 But even even if people are coming at the top 0:18:38.350 --> 0:18:42.150 level to be our doctors, our engineers, our, you know. Yeah, 0:18:42.150 --> 0:18:44.949 it's absolutely great to have. But, you know, the better 0:18:44.990 --> 0:18:47.150 the more migrants, the better the society. So how come 0:18:47.150 --> 0:18:49.790 then we let these groups emerge in which and I 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.400 have to say, um, there was a man called Malcolm 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.880 Turnbull who turned our stomachs in the world by saying 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.800 that no one could ever come into Australia who would 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.359 come by sea illegally, and that he would never be 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.000 let in even once. There would be no lift on that. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:05.959 And he got Obama to agree to take people he 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.560 was keeping on an island. But, I mean, every country 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:09.960 did this in one way or another. There are a 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:11.960 lot of deportations from Ireland. There's no point in blaming 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.240 Malcolm Turnbull, but I do. And but but I mean, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.040 the stuff that's going on in America at the moment 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:18.840 and the stuff that's going on in Germany and the 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.000 stuff that's going on in Spain and France over these outsiders, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.560 these strangers in our house, these migrants, these men, they're 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.320 going to take our what? Take our what? And they're 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.160 going to actually build a great society. I mean, can 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:37.080 you imagine Yorkshire without its Pakistani and Indian populations? What 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.080 would you eat? So like, this has to stop this 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.720 nonsense about migrants because it's not true. And it seems 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.520 to me very close to a demonization, for example, of 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.100 Jewish people in Germany and Poland in the 1920s and 0:19:50.100 --> 0:19:54.619 30s anti-Semitism began with the Big Lie. And this is 0:19:54.619 --> 0:19:56.899 an equal. I mean, obviously it's not equal. You know, 0:19:56.940 --> 0:20:00.740 nothing in history comes twice. But nonetheless, having to listen 0:20:00.740 --> 0:20:04.699 to this nonsense and watching liberal politicians being mealy mouthed 0:20:04.700 --> 0:20:06.700 about it and saying, oh, well, we do have to watch. 0:20:06.740 --> 0:20:08.860 You know, we have to be very careful about including 0:20:08.859 --> 0:20:12.180 in Ireland, our migration policy. We have to limit it, 0:20:12.180 --> 0:20:16.820 and deportations even. This man, Keir Starmer, said something so 0:20:16.859 --> 0:20:20.660 horrible the other day he talked about he didn't want 0:20:20.660 --> 0:20:23.700 England to be a country of strangers. Well, I think 0:20:23.700 --> 0:20:26.939 I know what he means. It might mean Irish people. 0:20:26.940 --> 0:20:29.500 He might mean people from the Caribbean. Are they strangers 0:20:29.500 --> 0:20:32.220 in England? Yeah. You know. And so he's just looking 0:20:32.220 --> 0:20:35.100 for votes. Cheap votes. Anyway, that's my rant on that. 0:20:35.140 --> 0:20:37.580 No. That's incredible. I mean, it's amazing to see you 0:20:37.580 --> 0:20:40.060 so impassioned because. Because it's obviously something you care so 0:20:40.060 --> 0:20:40.940 deeply about. 0:20:40.980 --> 0:20:43.340 If Trump didn't have this enemy, what would he be 0:20:43.340 --> 0:20:43.980 talking about? 0:20:44.180 --> 0:20:47.300 It makes me wonder what you feel now, as you know, 0:20:47.300 --> 0:20:49.430 because of course, like myself. And this is why I'm 0:20:49.430 --> 0:20:51.790 obsessed with this. I'm from Canada and I live here. 0:20:51.830 --> 0:20:53.790 Like so many people, of course, around the world, so 0:20:53.790 --> 0:20:55.630 many of our listeners will be the same. They're from 0:20:55.630 --> 0:20:57.389 one place, they're from another. I mean, Australia is a 0:20:57.390 --> 0:21:00.550 country of migrants, of course, and you live half your 0:21:00.550 --> 0:21:02.710 time in Los Angeles. So does that make you feel 0:21:02.710 --> 0:21:05.870 more Irish, though? Because, you know, I know Mike Myers, 0:21:05.869 --> 0:21:08.629 he's a Canadian comedian and he lives in America. And 0:21:08.630 --> 0:21:11.990 he said, there's no one more Canadian than an expatriate Canadian. 0:21:11.990 --> 0:21:15.150 And I definitely fall into that cliché. Is that you column? 0:21:15.150 --> 0:21:17.830 Are you I mean, the thing that everyone Irish recognizes 0:21:17.830 --> 0:21:20.590 and that maybe what Canadians recognize too, is that you 0:21:20.590 --> 0:21:23.350 go to JFK in New York and you're getting the 0:21:23.350 --> 0:21:25.830 flight back to Dublin. Yes, it's usually around 6:00 in 0:21:25.830 --> 0:21:27.510 the evening, which means getting to the airport is such 0:21:27.510 --> 0:21:29.429 a nightmare. Yes. And you're so worried about getting to 0:21:29.430 --> 0:21:31.110 the airport being late that you forget what you're going 0:21:31.109 --> 0:21:34.550 to witness now are the Irish, and you're going to 0:21:34.550 --> 0:21:36.590 see them and they're going to talk like you. Some 0:21:36.590 --> 0:21:38.230 they're going to look like you and they're going to 0:21:38.230 --> 0:21:40.670 behave like you, meaning that if they're pushing a cart along, 0:21:40.670 --> 0:21:42.909 they're never sure that this is the right thing to do. 0:21:42.950 --> 0:21:45.110 They have a slightly worried look. They don't deal well 0:21:45.109 --> 0:21:49.369 with authority. They're afraid or they're slightly aggressive. The men, 0:21:49.410 --> 0:21:52.090 you know, and the men have that sort of that 0:21:52.130 --> 0:21:54.890 sort of soft eyes that you get in Irish men. 0:21:54.930 --> 0:21:57.130 But it could be a very hard jaw. 0:21:57.170 --> 0:21:58.090 And what are the soft. 0:21:58.130 --> 0:21:59.530 Eyes telegraphing vulnerability. 0:21:59.570 --> 0:22:00.129 Like, what is it? 0:22:00.170 --> 0:22:02.330 Yeah. You're home. It's all fine. You're all. We're all 0:22:02.369 --> 0:22:04.889 together in this space. The cabin crew are all Irish. 0:22:04.930 --> 0:22:07.970 Still on the air Lingus flights are all Irish. So 0:22:07.970 --> 0:22:09.890 the woman in the middle of the night, as she's 0:22:09.890 --> 0:22:11.690 passing you by, looks at you and says. Would you 0:22:11.690 --> 0:22:14.810 like more tea? And straight from home. It's like exactly 0:22:14.810 --> 0:22:15.930 what they used to say to you at home. Would 0:22:15.930 --> 0:22:16.490 you like more tea? 0:22:16.530 --> 0:22:18.330 No. Is this a good feeling or a bad feeling? 0:22:18.369 --> 0:22:21.050 It's completely. When you first described it honestly. It's. 0:22:21.369 --> 0:22:24.730 It is. It is frighteningly good. You know, suddenly you 0:22:24.730 --> 0:22:27.570 realise all this stuff. I've been dealing with all these Americans, 0:22:27.570 --> 0:22:30.129 and they're like their voices and their driving. Driving the 0:22:30.130 --> 0:22:32.930 wrong side of the road. And they're like. They're just constant. 0:22:32.970 --> 0:22:37.530 Like being being being American. It's so you can breathe 0:22:37.530 --> 0:22:39.730 and you don't. You realise the amount of pressure you've 0:22:39.730 --> 0:22:43.929 been under before and you're underplaying. It doesn't last, by 0:22:43.930 --> 0:22:47.740 the way. It's quite a false piece of elation, but 0:22:47.740 --> 0:22:51.300 it's real and everybody knows it. But it doesn't last. 0:22:51.500 --> 0:22:54.300 It makes me wonder whether you have been thinking about 0:22:54.619 --> 0:22:57.380 people who are exiled from their homes or threatened with exile. 0:22:57.420 --> 0:23:00.460 You know, whether it's people in Ukraine or Gaza. Is 0:23:00.460 --> 0:23:02.580 this something that you've been thinking much about? 0:23:02.619 --> 0:23:04.980 I mean, I think part of the impulse behind Brooklyn was, 0:23:05.020 --> 0:23:06.900 was to show what it's like to have to move 0:23:07.220 --> 0:23:10.100 for economic reasons, in this case, to another country. The 0:23:10.100 --> 0:23:13.180 initial loneliness, the strangeness, the homesickness, the sort of wrong 0:23:13.180 --> 0:23:17.500 decisions made. And so, so that idea that migration itself 0:23:17.500 --> 0:23:20.140 is not something you do in order to take things 0:23:20.140 --> 0:23:22.940 from people. It brings its own pain. I think all 0:23:22.940 --> 0:23:25.220 of us who come from societies where we can have 0:23:25.220 --> 0:23:26.820 passports and where we can easily move from one place 0:23:26.820 --> 0:23:29.420 to another, have to be aware that all around us 0:23:29.420 --> 0:23:31.780 are now people who are moving for really good reasons, 0:23:31.780 --> 0:23:34.220 and the idea that we're prejudiced against them or we're 0:23:34.220 --> 0:23:37.340 blaming them for something or we're demonizing them is really horrible, 0:23:37.340 --> 0:23:39.820 especially since we ourselves are so privileged. 0:23:41.500 --> 0:23:44.260 Colm, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here. 0:23:44.300 --> 0:23:45.220 Thank you very much. Thank you. 0:23:45.260 --> 0:24:00.280 Thank you. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:04.080 by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Bella 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:08.879 Anne Sanchez. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.719 is our head of audio. To listen to our episodes 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.879 as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:19.520 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:23.600 by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:28.960 or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.479 up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:35.159 of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning. 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.280 Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:40.600 Thanks for listening.