1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,360 S1: She was given the pseudonym XTC by a court to 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,720 S1: protect her identity, and she's never spoken publicly about her experience. 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,200 S1: But the court documents from her case against Ken Dyers 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,720 S1: reveal a harrowing set of allegations at the age of 14. 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,400 S1: She says that Dyers, the leader of the performing arts 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,320 S1: and social organisation Kenja, sexually abused her and she alleges 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,600 S1: that nine other members of his organisation. All but one 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,160 S1: of them women, helped him to do it. Dyers was 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,280 S1: in his early 80s at the time. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,120 S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,640 S1: the Sydney Morning Herald today, investigative reporter Harriet Alexander on 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,280 S1: why Kenja, which police have called a cult, is still 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:56,080 S1: operating in cities across Australia. And a note this episode 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,270 S1: may be distressing to some listeners. Harriet. Welcome back. 15 00:01:01,390 --> 00:01:02,350 S2: Thank you for having me. 16 00:01:02,510 --> 00:01:05,270 S1: You always have some of the most unbelievable stories. So 17 00:01:05,270 --> 00:01:07,869 S1: let's launch into this one because so many of us 18 00:01:07,870 --> 00:01:10,390 S1: have heard cult stories, right? We've watched them play out 19 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:12,830 S1: in movies, but I imagine a lot of listeners are 20 00:01:12,830 --> 00:01:15,190 S1: like myself, you know, they don't think that people in 21 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:18,430 S1: their own neighborhoods might get caught up in them. But 22 00:01:18,430 --> 00:01:22,270 S1: then years ago, you came across a pretty peculiar organization 23 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:25,670 S1: running out of Sydney. It then expanded into other cities. 24 00:01:25,670 --> 00:01:27,910 S1: So tell us how you stumbled onto this. 25 00:01:28,630 --> 00:01:32,390 S3: I actually came across Kenja in early 2020. It's like 26 00:01:32,390 --> 00:01:35,910 S3: a social club with a performing arts component and a 27 00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:39,789 S3: spiritual component. The ABC was airing, I don't know if 28 00:01:39,790 --> 00:01:42,470 S3: you remember stateless. It was a drama that was inspired 29 00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:44,550 S3: by the true story of Cornelia Rau. 30 00:01:45,150 --> 00:01:49,910 S4: What is this place? It's a dance studio. Dance classes 31 00:01:50,430 --> 00:01:51,950 S4: at $400 a week. 32 00:01:53,150 --> 00:01:56,550 S3: She was an Australian citizen who'd been wrongly detained and 33 00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:58,710 S3: held in an immigration detention centre. 34 00:01:59,750 --> 00:02:02,070 S5: They will want to know why someone who looks just 35 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:04,950 S5: like them is trapped in a place like this. 36 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:10,190 S3: And Rao was clearly suffering from mental health issues. But 37 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:12,790 S3: what a lot of people. What I'd forgotten is that 38 00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:17,230 S3: immediately before she was detained by immigration authorities, she'd been 39 00:02:17,230 --> 00:02:21,350 S3: a member of Kenja, and it had clearly messed with her. 40 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:25,070 S6: We're going to transfer all that fear, all that negative 41 00:02:25,070 --> 00:02:29,149 S6: energy out of you, into me and away. 42 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:32,550 S3: And so when this program aired on the ABC, people 43 00:02:32,550 --> 00:02:34,790 S3: had been members of Kenja were watching, and it stirred 44 00:02:34,790 --> 00:02:36,950 S3: up a lot of memories for them, and they still 45 00:02:36,950 --> 00:02:39,630 S3: hadn't really worked through what had happened to them when 46 00:02:39,630 --> 00:02:41,710 S3: they were in the group. So they started chatting to 47 00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:44,550 S3: each other, and they ended up contacting us because they 48 00:02:44,590 --> 00:02:46,790 S3: were ready to tell their stories for the first time. 49 00:02:47,270 --> 00:02:49,470 S3: And so when I heard this, I originally thought there 50 00:02:49,470 --> 00:02:51,070 S3: might be a news story in it, but when I 51 00:02:51,070 --> 00:02:54,790 S3: started talking to them, I just got completely drawn into 52 00:02:54,790 --> 00:02:57,910 S3: this labyrinth that's really still revealing itself to me. 53 00:02:58,510 --> 00:03:00,579 S1: Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're going to get into some 54 00:03:00,580 --> 00:03:03,500 S1: of these stories that are honestly just hard to believe 55 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:05,620 S1: in just a bit. But first of all, what exactly 56 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:08,380 S1: is Kenya like? What do its members believe? 57 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:12,940 S3: So Ken Dias and Jan Hamilton co-founded Kenya in Sydney 58 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:17,420 S3: in 1982. He was 60, she was 32 and the 59 00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:20,419 S3: group's name, Kenya, was an amalgam of their first name, 60 00:03:20,419 --> 00:03:21,340 S3: Ken and Jah. 61 00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:27,260 S7: Welcome to the workshop, Jan representing Ken and Jan. 62 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:34,180 S3: The head physical office space in Sydney, in Surry Hills 63 00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:36,740 S3: and on Bourke Street in Melbourne. They had offices in 64 00:03:36,740 --> 00:03:40,100 S3: Canberra and Noosa and you paid to be a member 65 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:43,940 S3: and then they ran all these stedeford sporting competitions. 66 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:47,260 S8: My only sunshine, You make me Happy. 67 00:03:47,420 --> 00:03:49,700 S3: Clowning classes was called. 68 00:03:50,180 --> 00:03:53,980 S9: Weighted down by this terrible thought that I might never, 69 00:03:53,980 --> 00:03:55,060 S9: ever get married. 70 00:03:56,820 --> 00:04:00,090 S3: But they also had a spiritual philosophy, and under that 71 00:04:00,090 --> 00:04:03,730 S3: philosophy they believe that a person's worldly troubles were caused 72 00:04:03,730 --> 00:04:07,690 S3: by attached spirits which are holding them back. So they 73 00:04:07,730 --> 00:04:10,490 S3: held what were called processing sessions, basically a form of 74 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:13,090 S3: meditation to purge those spirits. 75 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:17,450 S10: I am perceptive about the negative thoughts that I have, 76 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:20,650 S10: and I've got rid of a lot of that stuff 77 00:04:20,650 --> 00:04:23,690 S10: that says I'm less than I am. It's gone. I've 78 00:04:23,690 --> 00:04:25,370 S10: got rid of it. I mean, get rid of it. 79 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:26,090 S10: I don't even think. 80 00:04:26,130 --> 00:04:27,849 S3: So the curtain was lifted on a lot of these 81 00:04:27,850 --> 00:04:33,489 S3: practices in a 2008 documentary called Beyond Our Ken, which 82 00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:37,690 S3: was directed and produced by Melissa McLean and Luke Walker. 83 00:04:38,450 --> 00:04:42,289 S11: There's a chain of spirits which goes right back past 84 00:04:42,290 --> 00:04:47,370 S11: this lifetime, right back to other lifetimes. One attack spirit 85 00:04:48,970 --> 00:04:54,210 S11: could control 15% of your life. Another one could control 86 00:04:54,330 --> 00:04:57,770 S11: another 20%. So each time a section of your life 87 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:00,490 S11: is free. They've been going through their whole life. 88 00:05:00,529 --> 00:05:02,530 S12: There was always a sort of a quasi. 89 00:05:02,529 --> 00:05:07,010 S3: If not an actual sexual element to Kenya. So in 90 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:11,770 S3: the early days, there were group processing sessions where adults 91 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:13,970 S3: would be sitting in the nude and they would be 92 00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:18,529 S3: sitting on chairs in pairs opposite each other, doing the 93 00:05:18,570 --> 00:05:20,529 S3: purging of the spirits or whatever they did, looking into 94 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:23,890 S3: each other's eyes. And we know that Ken Dyers did 95 00:05:23,890 --> 00:05:28,130 S3: private nude processing sessions as well, and numerous girls who 96 00:05:28,130 --> 00:05:30,490 S3: grew up in the cult alleged that Dyers abused him 97 00:05:30,490 --> 00:05:33,210 S3: during these sessions under the guise of helping them to 98 00:05:33,250 --> 00:05:35,810 S3: prepare for their future sexual relationships. 99 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:41,250 S13: He did. What I perceive now is sexual and emotional abuse. 100 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:45,410 S14: He, um, he tricked me into having sexual intercourse, into 101 00:05:45,410 --> 00:05:47,050 S14: telling me that it's therapy. 102 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:49,610 S15: I was captive for the times I was in in 103 00:05:49,930 --> 00:05:52,090 S15: his therapy session. 104 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,680 S1: Wow, Hattie, that's incredibly disturbing. Perhaps let's get into how 105 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,640 S1: Kenya has been seen more widely. Ken Dyers, when he 106 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,599 S1: was alive, always denied that Kenya was a cult. His partner, 107 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,520 S1: Jan Hamilton still fiercely denies this. But that's how police 108 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,080 S1: often classify Kenya. Why? 109 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:16,320 S12: It was quite. 110 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,040 S3: An all encompassing thing, being a part of Kenya. So 111 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,280 S3: sometimes the leaders would tell the younger members who they 112 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,800 S3: should form romantic relationships with and had certain features of 113 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,800 S3: typical of cults. So it had a charismatic leader in dies, 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,320 S3: and it discouraged contact with family and friends who don't 115 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,559 S3: subscribe to its beliefs. And it tended to attract people 116 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,320 S3: who were lost or lonely or seeking spiritual meaning. And 117 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,520 S3: it grew quite quickly. It grew from about 20 people 118 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,120 S3: initially to about 200 by the early 1990s, and Dyers 119 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,080 S3: and Hamilton owned several apartments in Sydney, which they leased 120 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,960 S3: to members, and they themselves lived in a large house 121 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,360 S3: overlooking the ocean in Bundeena, which was about an hour's 122 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,750 S3: drive south of Sydney. One of their recruiting methods has 123 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:02,590 S3: always been selling flowers at places like Edgecliff station in 124 00:07:02,589 --> 00:07:05,630 S3: Sydney and in Lonsdale Street in Canberra, and you can 125 00:07:05,630 --> 00:07:09,390 S3: still sometimes see people today wandering down selling flowers, trying 126 00:07:09,390 --> 00:07:13,870 S3: to recruit. And they've run sausage sizzles at Bunnings, so 127 00:07:13,910 --> 00:07:16,270 S3: they're still around in a much diminished form. 128 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:18,870 S1: Okay. And then really the heart of this is that 129 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:21,630 S1: a number of former members of Kenja have told you 130 00:07:21,630 --> 00:07:25,750 S1: that Ken Dyers sexually abused them. And one person who 131 00:07:25,750 --> 00:07:28,750 S1: claims that Dyers abused her is a woman who has 132 00:07:28,750 --> 00:07:32,790 S1: been given the court pseudonym to protect her identity. So 133 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:35,390 S1: can you just tell me about her time at Kenja? 134 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:38,030 S1: Both what she has said about Ken Dyers and also 135 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:41,630 S1: about some of the female members of Kenja who allegedly 136 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:43,990 S1: have played a crucial role in a lot of these 137 00:07:43,990 --> 00:07:45,790 S1: stories of alleged abuse. 138 00:07:46,310 --> 00:07:47,990 S12: Yeah. X is never. 139 00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:51,470 S3: Spoken publicly, but details of her case can be found 140 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:54,110 S3: in court documents that were tendered in a civil action 141 00:07:54,110 --> 00:07:57,470 S3: that she brought board against Jan Hamilton and nine other 142 00:07:57,470 --> 00:07:59,870 S3: senior members of Kenja. All but one of whom were 143 00:07:59,870 --> 00:08:03,990 S3: women who she claimed had aided and abetted Dyers in 144 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:09,590 S3: sexually abusing her. So XY was probably Dyers last victim. 145 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:16,710 S3: Dyers took his life in 2007. He generally started becoming 146 00:08:16,710 --> 00:08:20,550 S3: interested in girls when they reached puberty, and by the 147 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:24,710 S3: time XY reached puberty, he'd already been charged with sexual abuse, 148 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:27,350 S3: and he was subject to bail conditions to prevent him 149 00:08:27,350 --> 00:08:31,150 S3: from coming into contact with children. But she claimed that 150 00:08:31,150 --> 00:08:34,429 S3: the women of Kenja provided her with a Nokia phone 151 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:38,150 S3: that she was given for the sole purpose of arranging 152 00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:42,550 S3: one on one unsupervised sessions with dyers. They would be 153 00:08:42,550 --> 00:08:46,630 S3: described in text messages as a session with Blythe McLachlan, 154 00:08:46,630 --> 00:08:49,590 S3: who was one of the other women in Kenja, and 155 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:52,510 S3: they allegedly gave her a disguise of a wig and 156 00:08:52,510 --> 00:08:56,580 S3: glasses that she was asked to wear. They bundled her 157 00:08:56,580 --> 00:08:59,620 S3: down to the bottom of the building in a lift. 158 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:02,260 S3: She was taken into a car where they threw a 159 00:09:02,260 --> 00:09:05,660 S3: blanket over her, and she was driven to a different apartment, 160 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:09,740 S3: where Dyers would be waiting for her. He was in 161 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:12,380 S3: his early 80s when this was alleged to have happened, 162 00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:14,460 S3: and she was 14 years old. 163 00:09:18,220 --> 00:09:21,980 S1: And these experiences that XC has alleged, you know, they 164 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:25,500 S1: were all she has said taking place around 2007. And 165 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:29,220 S1: that's years after Ken Dyers had been found guilty of 166 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:32,620 S1: aggravated indecent assault, a conviction that I think you just 167 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:36,060 S1: mentioned was later quashed on a legal technicality. So tell 168 00:09:36,059 --> 00:09:36,940 S1: us about that. 169 00:09:36,980 --> 00:09:37,420 S12: Yeah. 170 00:09:37,460 --> 00:09:42,340 S3: Dyers was found guilty of aggravated indecent assault in 1999. 171 00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:45,860 S3: There'd been four complainants in that case, and that was 172 00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:47,819 S3: the only charge that stuck. 173 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:51,179 S16: Ken Dyers was arrested and charged with four counts of 174 00:09:51,179 --> 00:09:55,530 S16: indecent assault and seven counts of unlawful sexual intercourse with 175 00:09:55,530 --> 00:09:59,650 S16: four girls aged between 8 and 15. It's alleged Mr. 176 00:09:59,650 --> 00:10:03,170 S16: Dyers committed the offences during what he calls energy conversion 177 00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:04,929 S16: sessions three years. 178 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:08,090 S3: But the conviction was quashed on a legal technicality. 179 00:10:08,330 --> 00:10:12,130 S17: Allegations were part of a campaign to destroy him and 180 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:17,250 S17: his organisation, kenja by disaffected and bitter former members. 181 00:10:18,690 --> 00:10:23,170 S11: The usual suspects are after me again for me to 182 00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:25,850 S11: be there, but I am not running away from them. 183 00:10:26,490 --> 00:10:30,410 S11: I never did. I think it's time the media started looking. 184 00:10:30,850 --> 00:10:34,890 S3: And the DPP elected not to run a retrial after 185 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:38,330 S3: weighing up a number of factors, including his age and 186 00:10:38,330 --> 00:10:42,450 S3: the time that had elapsed since the alleged offence. Unfortunately, 187 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:46,089 S3: this meant that he continued to re-offend and several women 188 00:10:46,090 --> 00:10:49,450 S3: claimed they were sexually abused by dyers in the following years. 189 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:52,130 S3: Two of them reported him to police. He was charged 190 00:10:52,130 --> 00:10:56,130 S3: with 22 offences, and while he was waiting for his trial, 191 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:59,050 S3: a third woman came forward and said he had molested 192 00:10:59,050 --> 00:11:02,130 S3: her while he was on bail. So that basically meant 193 00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:05,650 S3: that he would bail, would probably be revoked and realizing 194 00:11:05,650 --> 00:11:11,050 S3: that he shot himself. And as recently as a month 195 00:11:11,050 --> 00:11:14,970 S3: before he shot himself, he'd allegedly caused SC to scream 196 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:17,850 S3: in pain as he sexually assaulted her. And when he 197 00:11:17,890 --> 00:11:24,570 S3: finally stopped, he shouted at her for making him stop. Look, 198 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:28,250 S3: he's always maintained his innocence. But this is this is 199 00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:30,890 S3: what she alleged in the court documents and what we 200 00:11:30,929 --> 00:11:34,490 S3: know from other sources. When he did maintain his innocence, 201 00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:38,530 S3: he he became invariably very frustrated. Um, which was recorded 202 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:41,650 S3: in a documentary called Beyond Our Ken that was filmed 203 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:43,170 S3: a few years before his death at the height of 204 00:11:43,170 --> 00:11:44,170 S3: the allegations. 205 00:11:45,530 --> 00:11:48,050 S11: Instead of asking me to defend myself, defend myself. 206 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:49,530 S10: Have a look at the young people who. 207 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:53,640 S11: Were playing a bloody game. The cleanest game that's ever 208 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,480 S11: been played in Australia. And why do I have to 209 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,800 S11: defend myself for that? I don't, and I'm not going to. 210 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:01,960 S11: I'm not going to. 211 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,559 S18: Why not? 212 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:16,360 S1: We'll be right back. Of course, in the face of 213 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,559 S1: these allegations of horrific abuse by Dyers, we've got not 214 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,240 S1: just members of Kenja, which you might expect, including his 215 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,319 S1: partner Jen, fiercely defending his legacy and Kenja. You know, 216 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,880 S1: they've got ads lionizing him as a great Australian. They 217 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,080 S1: put on a live theatrical show called A Witch Hunt. 218 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,680 S1: Guilty until proven innocent. But you've written that some of 219 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,000 S1: Dyers fiercest defenders were the mothers of the girls who 220 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,240 S1: say they were abused by him. Now, this is fascinating. Disturbing. 221 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,760 S1: So can you just walk us through this? 222 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,560 S3: Yeah. I find it really fascinating as well. A lot 223 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,950 S3: of the mothers of girls who say they were abused 224 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:55,990 S3: remain in Kenya to this day. And I think they 225 00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:58,950 S3: probably still in the thrall of Dyers. Um, but I 226 00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:02,670 S3: almost I mean, this is just my armchair psychology, but I, 227 00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:05,949 S3: I think that they almost have to believe that he's 228 00:13:05,950 --> 00:13:11,430 S3: been wrongly maligned because the allegations suggest that the adults 229 00:13:11,429 --> 00:13:15,630 S3: were complicit in what happened. So if he's the monster 230 00:13:15,630 --> 00:13:18,030 S3: that their daughters say he is, well, where does that 231 00:13:18,070 --> 00:13:22,230 S3: leave them? Um. And it's there are a few women 232 00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:25,150 S3: who have who have come out of Kenya and talked 233 00:13:25,150 --> 00:13:28,390 S3: about what happened in Kenya and what they did, which 234 00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:32,030 S3: takes enormous courage to acknowledge your own part. 235 00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:35,709 S1: Along this line of questioning, I guess, about the people 236 00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:39,390 S1: who have failed, these girls who allege horrific abuse. We've 237 00:13:39,390 --> 00:13:41,310 S1: got to talk about the fact that our own papers 238 00:13:41,309 --> 00:13:44,870 S1: ran advertisements sponsored by Kenya. We were called out by 239 00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:47,870 S1: Mediawatch at the time. This is back in 2007. So 240 00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:50,429 S1: can you tell us about that? And I don't know 241 00:13:50,429 --> 00:13:54,710 S1: what's perhaps reflects, if anything, about our broader culture and 242 00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:58,510 S1: the way it might have protected an alleged sexual abuser. 243 00:13:59,070 --> 00:14:01,829 S3: Yes, it wasn't exactly our finest hour when we ran 244 00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:06,550 S3: advertisements in support of candidates. I think he placed ads 245 00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:08,990 S3: in a number of newspapers, including the Sydney Morning Herald, 246 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:13,390 S3: proclaiming his innocence. And Mediawatch took an interest when, two 247 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:15,750 S3: weeks after his death, Kenja paid for ads in the 248 00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:19,590 S3: Fairfax papers which attacked those girls credibility. It was part 249 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:24,870 S3: of a public relations campaign. After Dyer's suicide that also 250 00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:28,710 S3: included a lecture by Jan Hamilton, um and a documentary 251 00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:32,790 S3: presented live on stage by many of Kenja followers that 252 00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:35,550 S3: promised to tell the true story of what happened. There 253 00:14:35,550 --> 00:14:39,630 S3: was a documentary titled A Witch Hunt Guilty Until Proven Innocent, 254 00:14:39,870 --> 00:14:42,710 S3: and Hamilton, actually years later, also tried to sue the 255 00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:45,750 S3: state of New South Wales for Dyer's death because she 256 00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:49,270 S3: said that he'd killed himself because he was hounded by police. 257 00:14:49,830 --> 00:14:51,220 S3: That was unsuccessful. 258 00:14:52,020 --> 00:14:54,300 S1: I mean, one question that is really unanswered for me 259 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:57,460 S1: in all of this is, did Ken Dyers have some 260 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:01,580 S1: sort of charm or aura around him, which led to 261 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:03,900 S1: so many people being in his thrall? You know, you 262 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:06,980 S1: mentioned that it's possible that the mothers of the women 263 00:15:06,980 --> 00:15:10,260 S1: who allege this horrific abuse by him, that they could 264 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:12,500 S1: possibly still be in his thrall. So what was it 265 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:15,860 S1: about him, I guess, aside from, of course, what he promised, 266 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:18,780 S1: which was perhaps a cure for loneliness or cure for 267 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:20,180 S1: spiritual unease? 268 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:22,140 S19: I mean, he he clearly. 269 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:26,740 S3: Must have had some kind of charisma, um, because so 270 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:30,660 S3: many people signed up to his philosophy and subscribed to 271 00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:34,180 S3: it and thought that it was helping them and had 272 00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:35,900 S3: a bad temper as well. So if you if you 273 00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:38,940 S3: went against him, he'd fly into a rage often, and 274 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:42,060 S3: sometimes he'd humiliate you in front of the group. So 275 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:44,580 S3: you were sort of afraid of of letting him down, 276 00:15:44,580 --> 00:15:46,580 S3: I guess, or of saying something that he didn't agree with. 277 00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,300 S3: But there was probably also the element of wanting to 278 00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:50,330 S3: please him as well. 279 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,530 S1: Wow. That's interesting. And so now, of course, many of 280 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,450 S1: these women, they're growing up, they're coming to terms with 281 00:15:56,450 --> 00:16:00,410 S1: what happened at Kenya. They're speaking up. So do you 282 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:02,770 S1: actually expect that more of them might sue? 283 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:07,250 S3: I think it's very tricky. Dies is dead, obviously. So 284 00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:10,490 S3: you'd have to do what exceeded. And Sue Hamilton and 285 00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:12,650 S3: the other senior members of Kenya for failing in their 286 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:16,370 S3: duty of care. X's case was ultimately settled before it 287 00:16:16,410 --> 00:16:18,770 S3: went to trial. And we don't know the terms. It 288 00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:21,970 S3: was a confidential settlement, but we do know that afterwards 289 00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:25,090 S3: Hamilton's house at Bundeena went on the market. So that 290 00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:27,410 S3: tells you something. But it does also tell you that 291 00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:29,730 S3: there's a question mark over what kind of assets and 292 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:32,610 S3: money would be available if they did sue. I know 293 00:16:32,610 --> 00:16:34,890 S3: that some of them had hoped to receive compensation under 294 00:16:34,890 --> 00:16:39,210 S3: the National Redress Scheme. This was a scheme for the 295 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:43,130 S3: victims of sexual abuse that was set up by the 296 00:16:43,130 --> 00:16:47,970 S3: Royal Commission. It offers a payment of $150,000 counselling and 297 00:16:47,970 --> 00:16:51,370 S3: a direct response from the responsible institution to people if 298 00:16:51,370 --> 00:16:55,810 S3: their claims are substantiated. But Kenya has somehow managed to 299 00:16:55,850 --> 00:17:01,010 S3: slip through every available loophole to evade its responsibilities under 300 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:04,449 S3: this scheme. It's first of all, it says no abuse 301 00:17:04,450 --> 00:17:06,650 S3: ever occurred, so there's no need to join. So it's 302 00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:08,970 S3: one of the very few institutions that haven't signed up 303 00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:12,409 S3: to the scheme despite having claims against it. The federal 304 00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:15,930 S3: government tried to introduce sanctions for institutions that didn't join, 305 00:17:16,210 --> 00:17:19,010 S3: such as the loss of charity status. But Kenya's not 306 00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:21,850 S3: a charity, so it doesn't have anything to lose. The 307 00:17:21,850 --> 00:17:24,570 S3: government does offer to stand in as the funder of 308 00:17:24,570 --> 00:17:28,850 S3: last resort for organisations that are defunct, but Kenya's still 309 00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:31,330 S3: going so it could join the scheme if it wanted to. 310 00:17:31,369 --> 00:17:34,770 S3: It's just chosen not to. So it's a pretty hollow 311 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:41,010 S3: outcome for Kenya survivors. The scheme only works if organisations 312 00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:46,210 S3: work in good faith and recalcitrant organisations get off scot free. However, 313 00:17:46,210 --> 00:17:52,280 S3: despite having little hope of personal compensation. When XY sued 314 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,360 S3: Hamilton and the other Kenja members, a long procession of 315 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,960 S3: women who were abused by dyers themselves agreed to give 316 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,800 S3: evidence on X's behalf, and some of them felt guilty 317 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,920 S3: about the girls who came after them and who'd been 318 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,720 S3: abused because they said nothing of their own treatment. I 319 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,920 S3: spoke to one woman who remembered at the time she 320 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,320 S3: was being abused by Dyers. She remembered these little toddlers 321 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,120 S3: who ended up becoming his later victims, and they were 322 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,879 S3: prepared to stand up and give evidence to help assist 323 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,879 S3: her because they just wanted to see justice finally served. 324 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,400 S1: Kenja, of course, still continues to operate in Sydney and 325 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,760 S1: in Melbourne. So how do you make sense of that? 326 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,240 S1: You know, how do you reflect on that? You've been 327 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,920 S1: looking into this story off and on for four years. 328 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,200 S1: How do you make sense of that? 329 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,960 S20: It's a much diminished organisation. 330 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,430 S3: From what it was in its height. That probably happened 331 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:51,990 S3: after Dias left. It was very odd when I was 332 00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:54,710 S3: turning up to the early court cases in the XC case, 333 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,429 S3: there was sort of a group of very ordinary looking 334 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:01,990 S3: women in normal clothes. They didn't stand out at all. 335 00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:06,790 S3: Trudging into court each day. And they were just just 336 00:19:06,790 --> 00:19:12,070 S3: this weird sort of insular psychology. They'd all talk to 337 00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:14,390 S3: each other and glance at me. One of them was 338 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:16,229 S3: sent to mind me, so she used to come and 339 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:17,750 S3: sit next to me on a bench when I was 340 00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:21,350 S3: waiting outside the court. I think that they're just still 341 00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:25,109 S3: captured by that psychology and by the group, so they'll 342 00:19:25,109 --> 00:19:27,389 S3: stay there. But it's hard to see. It's hard to 343 00:19:27,390 --> 00:19:30,790 S3: see them getting too many new members. Although, you know, 344 00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:33,150 S3: I suppose there are still families that are having children 345 00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:35,030 S3: and who are growing up within the cult. 346 00:19:37,550 --> 00:19:40,990 S1: Well, Harriet, thank you so much for your time. 347 00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:42,070 S20: My pleasure. 348 00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:56,990 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. 349 00:19:57,190 --> 00:20:00,750 S1: Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is our 350 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:05,510 S1: head of audio archival audio. In today's episode was taken 351 00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:09,150 S1: from A Current Affair and the documentary Beyond Our Ken. 352 00:20:10,109 --> 00:20:12,629 S1: To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, 353 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:16,229 S1: follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you 354 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:20,550 S1: listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so 355 00:20:20,550 --> 00:20:27,350 S1: to support independent journalism, visit the page or smh.com.au. And 356 00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:29,310 S1: to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning 357 00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:31,869 S1: Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most 358 00:20:31,869 --> 00:20:35,949 S1: important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in 359 00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:40,230 S1: the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.