1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm Adam Swab, I'm a dear shiftman. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 2: And this is the contrarians with Adam and Adire I did, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: how would you check your life trauma or TPD insurance? 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: I would say I never check it, and I'm quite 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: neglectful with that altogether. 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: I don't blame me. I do think I checked mine 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 2: for about ten years. I just kept paying more and 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 2: more every year and it has got ridiculous. 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean, people 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: approach me about life insurance periodically and I kind of 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention. 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: Actually I have it, but I was so slack I 14 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 2: I kept paying it year on year. And I've got 15 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: a whole of the team from Safety Nest and I'm 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: curious for not doing this sooner. Why So, the Safety 17 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: Nest team did a complete check of all my different 18 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 2: policies life trauma TBD and they literally in a few 19 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: hours able to restructure my policies and remove allways unecessary 20 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: stuff I was paying for I didn't need, and actually 21 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: say five thousand dollars a year. 22 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, This is that nobody that will be 23 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 1: more frustrated about wasting money than you think of all 24 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: of the things that you can spend it on. I 25 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: mean literally no food or drink. 26 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: Well, it's a bittersweet because I love saving money, but 27 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: I hate the fact I wasn't saving money for jams, 28 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 2: so it's just the cash saving. The safety Nest team 29 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: also recommended different cub up for our kids, so I 30 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: didn't realize you get kid insurance as well. Just gives 31 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: you extra peace of mind. The last thing you want 32 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: to do is leave your partner and family in a 33 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: really tough position if God forbid, something terrible happens, and 34 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: if you don't have or aren't properly being advised for 35 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: critical insurances to protect you and your family. And can 36 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: get in touch with the team at safety Nest who 37 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: will give our listeners a free, no obligation consultation to 38 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: make sure you're optimizing spend and policies. Just go to 39 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: safetynest dot com dot au and click to get started, 40 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 2: or give them a call on one three hundred zero 41 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: five five nine two two. Have you ever used venture 42 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: debt or growth credit in your businesses? 43 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: I haven't used it. But I think it's one of 44 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: the more interesting innovations that has come to growth capital 45 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: in the last decade. And I think, what if I 46 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: said to you, I don't think it gets enough credit, 47 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: You're totally right. 48 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: The team at Mighty Partners have been funding scaling Aussie 49 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: businesses for five years by providing up to five million 50 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: dollars in flexible credit design for high growth businesses. 51 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: Or five million dollars actually is a ton of money. 52 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 3: It's amazing, it's that high. That's some serious capital. 53 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: Exactly. Some companies used to accelerate growth fund and acquisition 54 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: or extend runway, but growth credit can be a cheaper 55 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: and more flexible option without having to give up equity. 56 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. I think people are very 57 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: fixated on interest rate when it comes to ventured it, 58 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: which I do think is important. But the other side 59 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: of the coin is what the value of the equity 60 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: is that ultimately you're giving up when you take venture funding. 61 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: Totally and Mighty Partners have funded companies like Amber Electric, 62 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 2: Wi Money and Sprint Law. And if you want to 63 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: find a smarter way to fund your next phase, go 64 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: to Mighty Partners, dot com, dot AU, Forward slash Contrarians, 65 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: and we're back for our ask Us Anything episode every 66 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: Saturday morning, when you ask us questions, big tech, growth, 67 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: whatever tickles your fancy. How mean Ida can hopefully help 68 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: you with your question. Mark, You've got the questions over 69 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: to you. Yeah, and I. 70 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 4: Will say there were a few people sending me voice 71 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 4: messages on LinkedIn, which is perfect. The first one today 72 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 4: comes from James Murray, who did just that. 73 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: Here's the question, Adam ad thank you very much for 74 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: the podcast. 75 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 5: It's the only podcast I listened to religiously each week 76 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 5: and make time for. My question to you both is 77 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 5: with relation to your angel investments, how do you go 78 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 5: about setting or validating the valuation in a world where 79 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 5: there's a bit of disconnection between M and A comps 80 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 5: and public comps, and with relevant M and A comps 81 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 5: being so scarce, particularly in Australia in the SME space, 82 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 5: how do you find comfort with the valuation? 83 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: I assume that you do not believe. 84 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 5: Or find dcfs useful for that stage of company. 85 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: Awesome question, James, Thanks for your kind words. I do 86 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: I'll par of you first being angel investor. 87 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a b angel investor, or, A good angel investor. 88 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 3: I'm neither of those. I will say, firstly, I'm excited 89 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: that we've become a religion. 90 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: That was my. 91 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: Overarching ambition with this podcast, So that is good, and 92 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: I look forward to having lots of disciples. So what 93 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: do I think about evaluation? It's made up. That's the 94 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: way I basically say it. And so mostly the valuations 95 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 3: that I see work something like this. I really don't 96 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: invest much at angel level because I've just been too 97 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: hopeless too many times. And I think that at the 98 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: really early idea stage, you know, like seed, pre seed stage, 99 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: pre revenue definitely, sometimes pre product, it's just I don't know, 100 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: like you don't get the return for the risk that 101 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: you're taking, Like the odds aren't good enough. If it's 102 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: a person I think is a superstar, that personal back 103 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 3: because I'm just betting on the person. I think down 104 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: at the pre product even pre revenue stage, it seems 105 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: to me the valuation is predominantly how much money do 106 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: we need and how much equity are we prepared to 107 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: give away? And you can back solve it, like if 108 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 3: you need three million dollars and you're prepared to give 109 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: away twenty percent, then you know that the post money 110 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: valuation has to be fifteen million dollars, right, and so 111 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 3: I think a lot of the valuations I see like that. 112 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 3: It's worth also mentioning that if people are raising money 113 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 3: and there are preference shares, so if the person putting 114 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,559 Speaker 3: the VC putting in the three meal or the angel 115 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 3: investors putting in the three mil have the right to 116 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 3: get their money back first, then the valuation is starts 117 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 3: becoming less important at that early stage. But the truth 118 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 3: is this, if you're investing in a company that's pre revenue, 119 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: preference shares often are not going to make a difference 120 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: because there's no liquidation value of the business if it liquidates, 121 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: so nobody's going to be getting anything. And so I 122 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: think at that early stage it's impossible to know what 123 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 3: a fair valuation is. I can know what a ridiculous 124 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: valuation is, but a fair valuation is impossible. And then 125 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: as it gets bigger and it starts earning revenue a 126 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: better way because again I just emphasize I'm not the 127 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: greatest person at this, but a better way to talk 128 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: about it is the way that let's say more professional 129 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 3: or consistent investors look at it is they might say, 130 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: what return do I need? How big do I think 131 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: this can be? And what return do I need to 132 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: make this worthwhile? And if I think I can get, like, 133 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: I don't know, a ten x return on this investment, 134 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 3: that'd be low at an early stage. Well, let's say 135 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: a ten x a return on the investment, and I 136 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 3: know I'm going to get diluted, and maybe I think 137 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: I'm going to get diluted by fifty percent, So I 138 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: kind of need a twenty x return for the money 139 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: that I'm investing today. Then you can back solve that. 140 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: You can say, oh, the valuation's fifty mil. Do I 141 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 3: think this is going to get to a billion dollar 142 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 3: valuation if it succeeds. Yeah, probably it will, Okay, So 143 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: that seems like a reasonable valuation to invest, especially if 144 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: I've got some preference shares that might protect me. So 145 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 3: it's art and a little bit of meths And James 146 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: is right in his assessment that I think dcfs are 147 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 3: useless in these situations. 148 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: Agree, And there's really kind of a couple of different 149 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: ones more than two. But look at the Idea way 150 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: of investing and the Adam way of investing, and I've 151 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: very much come to the inclusion the idea way of 152 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: investing is the right way. So what idea speaking on 153 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: your behalf tends to do is you've got sort of 154 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: investments in probably what four or five businesses predominantly, and 155 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: you take a very active role in helping the founders, 156 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: maybe not an official board seat, but you'll be the 157 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: principal advisor to coordinate daily blooms. So in situ you 158 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: guys in older times to other people who we've talked 159 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: about on the show for the Catapult guys classically and 160 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: now one point three billion dollar business. That's I think 161 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: a very good model. So you've obviously got the exposure 162 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: to the huge returns as you've seen with Catapult, but 163 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: you've also can influence positively the directory of the business. 164 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: You know, My evaluation in those situations are, like I 165 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: generally won't get involved unless it's an undervaluation of the 166 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: business for the first part of the trench that I 167 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 3: get because like that's kind of the price of getting 168 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: me involved, and then I'm happy to pay like a real, 169 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 3: real price for subsequent equity. 170 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: But like that is a bit of a weird approach, right, 171 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: And that's your time and expertise you're giving and you're 172 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: taking risk on that, so obviously it doesn't work, you're 173 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: not getting paid, so that's a fair transaction. I think 174 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: that's a great way to Obviously most people don't have 175 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: your expertise. I can't do this, but you've been able 176 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: to do that really well. And there's something that probably 177 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: a few dozen people in Australia who's capable of adding 178 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: value like you do, if not less what I've historically done. 179 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: I've probably made fifteen or so. I've caught startup investments. 180 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: This could be early stage, you could end sort of 181 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: Series A, Series B potentially, and I've had a real 182 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: range of some good wins, but some disaster caught zeros, 183 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: which is not uncommon in kind of a VC portfolio. 184 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: But problem with doing what I do and taking a 185 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: call it a smallish stake in these startups or even 186 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: could be slightly later than the startup and then eventually 187 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: hoping to liquid eight is founders team not to listen 188 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: to you, and because I'm one of many shareholders and 189 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: founders absolutely within their rights not to listen to me, 190 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: and many cases probably shouldn't listen to me. But you've 191 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: got such little influence over the business. I'm one of many, 192 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 2: and I've seen the last really the last six months, 193 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: I reckon four to five startups have just said we're 194 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: shutting out doors. Most have said or there's no money 195 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: to come back, or if the money is coming back, 196 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: tot of sense in the doll and that's I've actually 197 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: been very disappointed. And a lot of these founders I 198 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 2: quite like, and I think are good founders or have 199 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: had some bad luck along the way. But certainly when 200 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: I was helping founders and when I helped out with 201 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: book well, I would do anything to stop that business 202 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: going under. And it feels like founders now. Firstly, as 203 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: an investor, you have to wait a huge amount of 204 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: time to get liquidity, which is terrible. So I've invested 205 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: in stuff fifteen sixteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen and got no 206 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: liquidity at all from them, and then they just shut 207 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: their doors seven or eight, ten years later. It's a 208 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: pretty disappointing result as an investor. And it feels like 209 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: founders now not only you. Certainly I've always got the 210 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: legal right to shut your doors, but it feels like 211 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: founders now think I can take invest money and not 212 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: really try that hard to make that money back. Whereas 213 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 2: there's a couple of notable exceptions, and I won't mention 214 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: anyone's names, but I've become quite a jaded startup investor 215 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: now just because I think the attitude of too many 216 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: founders is well, yeah, you've given me capital, but I 217 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: can do what I want. I can ignore you, and 218 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: then I can shut the doors ten years later and 219 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: start a new business and everything's weve gotten about. And 220 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: maybe certainly legally they have that right, but I mean, 221 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: so I've never given this person money again. I would 222 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: advise nobody to get this person money again. I think 223 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: Australia rightfully has a slightly different attitude to failure to 224 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 2: the US. And it's been just disappointing to say a 225 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: space a founder shut the doors, show zero regard to 226 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: investors and along the whole way and just sort of 227 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: run off on the merry way. I'm feeling you you're 228 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: looking scorningly at me after saying that. 229 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: But seven to ten years come on, that's as found 230 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: it giving a big chunk of their life to try 231 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 3: and trying to make work. I always said when I 232 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 3: raised money from investors when I was running my own businesses. 233 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: I said, I can't promise you a return, but I 234 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 3: can promise that I'll treat the money as if it 235 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: was mine. That was my line to which I stuck to. 236 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: I think I've said to you before, but actually gave 237 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: a return to investors. It was better than the return 238 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: they deserved because I thought they should make a little 239 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: bit of money, like we were taking some money back. 240 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: But look, I. 241 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: Think on evaluation though, the truth is that there's no 242 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: if you're investing early, like because this question was about 243 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: angel investing, which is generally like it's either pre revenue 244 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: or very little revenue. And the truth is this, like 245 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: that valuation once you start passing ten or fifteen mel on, 246 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: that valuation for most businesses, like you're going to struggle 247 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: because it's going to struggle to make the returns you 248 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 3: need to make on the one or two that succeed. 249 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 3: Because the thing is this, at that level, they almost 250 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: all fail. In fact, let's say they some number close 251 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: to one hundred percent, very close to undercent fail. And 252 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 3: so if you're going to make money as an angel investor, 253 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 3: you've got to pick the couple that really succeed. Now, 254 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: Les Zechee he seems to be pretty good at picking 255 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: the couple that succeed. I suspect he's more involved than 256 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 3: just being a passive angel investor. But if you're just 257 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: a passive angel investor, it's like a spray and pray 258 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: approach to investing, because you've got to spread the money. 259 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: And so I think the trick is have a valuation 260 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: that you don't go above because the one that wins 261 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: has got to return you something like one hundred x 262 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: your money or something, and invest in lots of lots 263 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: and lots of startups. But I don't do any of that. 264 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: It's too risky for me. 265 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: I'm now sort of off investing in I never really 266 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: was pre revenue. I much prefer coming in post revenue. 267 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: You've got some product market fed. I don't mind paying 268 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: that to a ten million dollar valuation for that. Paying 269 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: ten million dollar plus valuation for a pre revenue business 270 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: to means just insane. I would never do it. I 271 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: think it's ridiculous. I think it's outrageous to ask. 272 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: Well, you can say like this, you can say ten 273 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 3: mil pre revenue, or the same business has two mil 274 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: of revenue a couple of years later, and it goes 275 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,239 Speaker 3: and stretches to like I don't know, ten x arr 276 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 3: like recurring revenue, which is a stretch in this market 277 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 3: for most startups, but that would be twenty mil. Yeah, 278 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: And so I basically delayed two years and waited until 279 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: they got a couple of meal of revenue and I 280 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: only paid twice the valuation. Like that's a much better 281 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 3: risk return curve. Yeah, so I think. And so I'm 282 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 3: not trying to dissuade people, because you know, we needed 283 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: people to invest, and there are tax advantages to investing 284 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: very early, which are good, but I think it's very 285 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 3: tricky to invest pre revenue. And then you get these 286 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: maniacs that have got like three mil of revenue or 287 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: five mil of revenue and the evaluations one hundred million 288 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: dollars and it's like, well, I'm interested, Like there's no 289 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: way I can get into those, right, So that's rare. 290 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: Now, I think I think the issue with I call 291 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: it really early stage angel, certainly for me, is you've 292 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 2: really got to in message, say in like set of 293 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: fifty or one hundred of them, because one in one 294 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: hundred is going to work, and if you're messed in 295 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: ten or fifteen and James and I who have done 296 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff together and some stuff separately, Like, yeah, 297 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: we've had some We've definitely had some wins, and overall 298 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: out my return probably is not that different to in 299 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 2: the next fund and anything's been fine, so the return, 300 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: it's been a liquid and like you need those couple 301 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 2: of wins. And the other thing I've done wrong is 302 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: I've invested different amounts in different startups just stupidly. If 303 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: I put the same in everything, I would have done 304 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: actually far better. 305 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 3: The last colon I'll make on this topic is if 306 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: you are going to angel invest, then you base in 307 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: my view, you need to invest very small amounts at 308 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: that very early stage and keep most of your money 309 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 3: to double down on the one or two that actually work, 310 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 3: because you've got to get as much exposure to those 311 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: as you possibly can. And if all you're doing is 312 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: putting five or ten or fifteen k into a whole 313 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: heap very early and then not faring on like that 314 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: is no recipe for success. 315 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think on that note, I think this is 316 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: where VC's actually add some value because they see everything 317 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: and they invest in more staff, and they follow on 318 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: on the good ones, and they're involved at board level, 319 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: and yes you're paying a hefty premium for the two 320 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: and twenty VC costs, but if you invest with a 321 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: good VC, be an Australia or internationally, there is some 322 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: real value out there that you, as an angel really 323 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: struggle to its different I'm when I say you, I 324 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: mean people generally. Obviously what you do is add real value. 325 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: Well, but also we can't do it like we can't 326 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 3: go and add value to twenty different companies. So it's 327 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: actually not that many hours in the day. 328 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: Totally great question, James, Thank you for that, Thank you 329 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: for listening. Next question Mike. 330 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,479 Speaker 4: Okay one from JK Smith who asks what really happens 331 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: in the Quantus Lounge. I hear about backroom dealings, but 332 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 4: is it true. 333 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: Like I really talk about the Quantus Lounge. You can 334 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 3: talk about the Quintus Lounge. I don't know. I can 335 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: talk about the Quintus first lounge. I can tell you 336 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 3: what happens in there. A whole lot of people who 337 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: can't afford to fly private, sitting around and acting like 338 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: they're the kings and queens, princes and princesses of the world, 339 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: eating food that actually has improved. But I think it's 340 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 3: worse than is available in most restaurants and having the 341 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: false economy of an airport lounge. I'm not sure I've 342 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: ever seen any business conducted whatsoever in the Quantus First Lounge. 343 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: But you can talk about that, this is Quantus First 344 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: internationally you. 345 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: Mean international, correct, But you can talk about the you 346 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: can talk about both the Virgin and the Quantus Special 347 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: People's Lounge and what happens in there. 348 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Chairman's Lounge and Beyond Lounge are just domestic. 349 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: So there's no Chairman's lounge interactually, so you use what 350 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: you just before mentioned first class lounge. And I always 351 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: feel like a bit of a fraud when I go 352 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: in these set of lounges because I'm not in there. 353 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: I'm in there because where is actually a travel agent 354 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: and luxury escapes and stuff. 355 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: You're the least of the fraud in that lounge because 356 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: actually you're connected by dollars to that. 357 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: But to get into like to get into chairmans, there's 358 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: two types of people to get in. There's the most 359 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: common is if you spend more than call it one 360 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: point five million dollars in a corporate sense with Quantas, 361 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: they will usually give you one chairman's and then the 362 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: more you spend, it's like a if you spend fifteen million, 363 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: you get ten. So it's kind of a linear. If 364 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: you're Boston Consulting Group, who's the number one Quantus customer 365 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: in Australia, they probably have like thirty Geman's Clart membership. 366 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: So are they Yeah, I think so. I think about 367 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: the consultants they have buzzing around. I always do a 368 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: lot of work with Quantus as well. PwC used to 369 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: have like fifteen for memory. So there's some business have heaps. 370 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: You know why because they probably don't even get They 371 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: probably don't even bother with discounts because they pass all 372 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: on coursts onto the clients. So it's a great customer 373 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: for Quantities. 374 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's great. They're amazing And obviously BCG and 375 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: Quantors have a deep relationship for thirty years. That Bruce 376 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: by Caannon who secretly started jest out with Allen whos XPCG. 377 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, we get in because obviously we're a big 378 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: seller of air and we work with loyalty businesses in 379 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: the past. I always feel like, if you see so 380 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: there's the companies who spend a lot with quantus. And 381 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: then there's the famous people, the politicians and the celebrities 382 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: and those kinds of people who get in and I'm 383 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: sort of in this weird the category of none of 384 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: the above. So I absolutely like a fraud being in there. 385 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 3: I call those famous people the fated and the hated. 386 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: That's my term for those famous people, because these politic 387 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: they're not loved right like. 388 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: So I've never seen certain thing in there. I've never 389 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 2: seen any kind of invertedcoma's business being done. I think 390 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: people no one really speaks to me, but people said 391 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: of keep to themselves. I've seen a few people I 392 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: know in there and I'll say hi, but it's pretty rare. 393 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 2: Most people sort of move in higher circles than I do. 394 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: But the beauty of those lounges is not so much 395 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 2: the lounge itself. It's the ability to change flights. That's 396 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: that's the best thing about them. If there's an issue, 397 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: you can change a flight without having to pay a cost. 398 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: So that's really the benefit of it. Other than that, 399 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: it's not a huge difference to the lounge to the 400 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: business class lounge. 401 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 3: Really, you know, the one time I think I've been 402 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: in the Quantus Chairman's Lange twice. It basically is like 403 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 3: a domestic version of the first International First. It's exactly 404 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 3: not that the person that took me on one of 405 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 3: those occasions was Michael Checker when he was the coach 406 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: of the Wallabies. He's a great guy. And what I 407 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 3: was impressed about is they knew exactly who he was 408 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: as soon as he walked in. I didn't see much 409 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: beyond that personalization benefit and as you said, like the 410 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 3: ability to change flights, et cetera. And I felt like 411 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 3: it just reinforced my view it is nice to have quiet, 412 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: Like I think I thought the best thing about that 413 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: lounge is that all of these lounges now are really 414 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: busy because they basically let everybody into these lounges. And 415 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 3: I remember when I was a kid, and I'm talking 416 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: like nineteen twenty, maybe even twenty five, and I was 417 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: trying to get into the lounges, and like ansets still 418 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 3: existed when I was a really like I was a 419 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: younger kid, and like I was so desperate to get 420 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 3: into these lounges, and I'd be able to talk my 421 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 3: way into lounge and various things like that but basically 422 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 3: there was this real cachet of getting into them, and 423 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: people were wearing like you could not wear shorts in 424 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 3: those lounges. Like there was a whole different vibe and 425 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 3: it was much quieter. Now when I go into the 426 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 3: Virgin Lounge, it's basically High Viz City, Like there's the 427 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 3: whole loungees people in High Viz. There's a totally different vibe. 428 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: And I think the best thing about these private lounges 429 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 3: is that they're much quiet. 430 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: Virgin only has one lounge. The version has one lounge 431 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: for passengers and me, and then they've got to be 432 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: on lounge, which is that chairman's lounge. Is because they 433 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 2: have the one lounge, everybody's sort of in the same 434 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: really tight place. Whereas Quantus have caught the Quantus Club 435 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: and the Quantus Business Lounge, which is if you're a 436 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: Platinum flyer or or you're buying business itself. I think 437 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: for the business I've done a Quantus actually up. They 438 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: just recently renovated the Sydney one. The Melbourne one's been 439 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: good for about three years. I think they've done a 440 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: pretty good job with those lounges. They were looking a 441 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: bit tired, but they've improved a lot. So credit to 442 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: Quantus for doing that. Virgin obviously and versions of that, 443 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: versions that credit in a different sense, have done it. 444 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: Jane has a detractors, but Virgin float coming up potentially 445 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: at a two point four million billion dollar valuation. That's 446 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: been a great story for a business that was worth 447 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: essentially zero four years ago. So we can criticize Virgin 448 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: for not being that premium, but they've actually met that 449 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: middle market really well. 450 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 3: It was worth zero during COVID, so I mean we 451 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: have to say, like it wasn't like they ran the 452 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: business badly, Like it basically came into a moment in 453 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 3: time when nobody was flying. But you know, I don't 454 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 3: even really go into the Virgin lange. I've said before 455 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 3: on this podcast, like they someone should just please please 456 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: give me access to the Beyond lounge because I find 457 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: NonStop on Virgin, because I just find it much better 458 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 3: value and like Quantus is a nicer experience, but Virgin 459 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 3: cost benefit to me, if you're paying, is the better 460 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 3: cost benefit. But I don't really go into the Virgin 461 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: lounge anymore. It's too busy. I'd rather just sit at 462 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: a cafe or at the gate like it's much quieter. 463 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 2: I often won't go into a lounge before you know, 464 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: if I need to eat or whatever, I will, but 465 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: often go to the gate and just wait there and 466 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 2: listen to a podcast possibly ourse. 467 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 3: There should be no politicians in any of those lounges. 468 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: I didn't say they shouldn't be given offer access, but 469 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 3: if you are elected by the people, you should go 470 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 3: and sit with the people and talk to the people 471 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: when you're traveling. Basically, it's my view, but as I said, 472 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: I think we are straight. 473 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: We are so lucky to have two very very strong 474 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: airlines and incredible airlines domestically in Australia. I think we're 475 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: compared to the US, compared to the UK, we're really 476 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: lucky to have Quantus and Virgin and Jetstar which is 477 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: an excellent low cost carrier serving Australia. Some think we're 478 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: in a great place. But great question, JKA. We'll go 479 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: to a quick break back with out there question in 480 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 2: a minute. You've probably heard me say there's nothing more 481 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: important to a business's success than a great team. For 482 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: nearly a decade, EFFICS has helped more than three hundred 483 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 2: and fifty companies from startups to established enterprise businesses, make 484 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 2: key exec hires, recruit specialists and scaled high performing GTM 485 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: and technology teams. They understand the unique challenges at every 486 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: stage and offer flexible, creative solutions tailored to your company's 487 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: growth phase. Working as partners, not just recruiters, Epics has 488 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: built winning teams for companies like Roller, nine to nine Designs, Mecha, Play, 489 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: HQ and Flipper. They even help Australian businesses scale into 490 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: the US. As a special offer for Contrarians listeners, Epics 491 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: will provide a complementary talent strategy session. Go to ethics 492 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: dot com dot au, forward slash Contrarians to speak to 493 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: Jar and the team for your next critical hire, and 494 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: we're back. Third question, Mike, all right, I. 495 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 4: Dare promise that we would get to every question. This 496 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 4: one's been in the back catalog for a while, so 497 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: we're finally getting to it. It is from Nadav Praha. 498 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 4: He asks, in the current climate, where are you stashing 499 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 4: your emergency million dollars country and asset class. 500 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: Oh thank you, ow dear you go. You've got many 501 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: millions to stash. 502 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 3: Hello, Nadove, I don't even kind of respond to your stuff. 503 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: I suspect that like that today is true for you. 504 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 3: So I don't really I'm not very worried about the 505 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: global economy. I'm happy to stash a million dollars in 506 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 3: an Australian bank, like I know that they say, well, 507 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 3: we only cover it up to two hundred and fifty k. 508 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: If it was, like I said this reservedly, if it 509 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 3: was my last one million dollars, I'd probably be more 510 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: cautious and try to split it into four parcels. But 511 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: my guess is, if one of those big four banks 512 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 3: is going down, the government is not going to be 513 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 3: able to honor those two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 514 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 3: insurance things anyway. And so I don't know. This is 515 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: a very short answer for me. I don't really worry 516 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 3: about these types of things. Like maybe I wouldn't put 517 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: it in like Venezuhale and the Venezuale and Bank or something, 518 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 3: but I don't. I think you can leave a million 519 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 3: dollars in a big four Australian bank and try to 520 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: find a high interesting out. The problem is you can't 521 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: get high interest on that amount of actually you can. 522 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: You know what My simple answer is, if I wanted 523 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 3: just to stash a million dollars somewhere, I'll just put 524 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: it in an Australian Big four bank in a high 525 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 3: interest savings account and not touch the money and let 526 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 3: it a crew interest. That would be my answer. 527 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 2: That's fair. I keep some money in Singapore given that 528 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 2: that pretty stable system. It's not a huge amount of money, 529 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: money stretch, not a dear money, but it's a bit 530 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 2: of cash. And I keep cash across a couple of 531 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: banks in Australia. What's the dear money. 532 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: My money is all in stocks of various things, you know, 533 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: like I don't have the dividend flow raining down on 534 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: me from luxury escapes every year. 535 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: I think it case come out of COVID. We've got 536 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: a pandemic to deal with. You Come on if you 537 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: I think, if you look at keeping money in just 538 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: cash is also probably not the best I think as 539 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: mostly I don't agree with many experts, but the one 540 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: thing I do agree with them on is I think 541 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: you want to diversify you're holding somewhat. So I wouldn't 542 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: put everything in property and nothing else. I won't put 543 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: me in the bank in nothing else. I think. I 544 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 2: think when we talked about this a year ago. I said, 545 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: probably the asset I hate the least is gold, and 546 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: of course, by chance has gone up probably fifty percent 547 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: is then. But I think he wants some gold. I'm 548 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: not totally anti having a tiny amount in crypto. I 549 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: think he wants some inequities. Although equities are so topic now, 550 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: I'd be loath to put too much cash in the 551 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 2: next month as we speak. But I think having a diverse, 552 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 2: fun portfolio of cash, property, gold and equities, and you 553 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: can choose the allocation however, you sort of want to 554 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: sort of tailor you it to your own risk. But 555 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: I think spreading across asset classes is pretty imperative. I 556 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: don't think you want to keep everything in the bank either. 557 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: I wouldn't put everything in gold because there's a risk 558 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: associated there. But I think having a cross multiple asset 559 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: classes is for my idea, it might for mine the 560 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: way to go you don't. 561 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 3: And it does set a co emergency emergency million dollars 562 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: assuming that means if the world goes to hell, you 563 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 3: need to buy guns, mo and CA and food like, 564 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 3: so you're going to keep it in cash like you're 565 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,479 Speaker 3: not worried about the Austraian banking system. I mean, you're 566 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 3: hapy to keep a million dollars in the austream banking system. 567 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: I'm long term worried about the banking I think the 568 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: banks are all insolvent and eventually we'll have to be 569 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: barreled out by government taxpayers. Question is when will that happen. 570 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 2: Every bank eventually goes insolvent. It's a question of. 571 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 3: When, because you think all of their assets are lending 572 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 3: to residential property. Basically that's where your issue is. 573 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 2: Well, that's one, but the nature of banks is they 574 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 2: borrow short and then long, So that's that's the challenge 575 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: is that's why we have runs on banks. So banks 576 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: are inherently insolvent, and they run on the trust of 577 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: depositors who trust banks to only have a fraction the 578 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: money in the bank. Volts are fraction to what they 579 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: have lent out. Everybody demands their money back the banks. 580 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: Every bank's got a proper we sort Silicon Valley bank 581 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 2: or two years ago. So inherently every bank is insolvent. 582 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 2: The question is at what point do you lose your 583 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: money and how and will the government set in and 584 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: how much does the government make you good and of course, 585 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: just in terms of you have multiple investments, our friends 586 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: and net Wealth are the best in the business, so 587 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: quick plug to our premier partner. I'm using that well 588 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: now and they're a great way to manage across different 589 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: investment classes. So this isn't specifically a paid advertisement, but 590 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 2: I'm super happy with the product and more than happy 591 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: to recommend them as a service. But thank you for 592 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: all your questions. Guys. That was a great suite of 593 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: questions today. We love getting the questions. As here says, 594 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: we'll get to as many questions as we can. Please 595 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: keep them coming in and we'll look forward to seeing 596 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 2: everybody on Tuesday. I did, how can you check your 597 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: life trauma or TPD insurance? 598 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: I would say I never check it, and I'm quite 599 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: neglectful with that altogether. 600 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: I don't blame you. I think I checked mine for 601 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: about ten years. I just kept paying more and more 602 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: every year and it has got ridiculous. 603 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean people 604 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: approach me about life insurance periodically and I kind of 605 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention 606 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention. 607 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 2: Actually I have it, but I was so slack I 608 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: kept paying a year on year and I've got a 609 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: whole of the team from Safety Nest and I'm furious 610 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: for not doing this sooner. Why so, the safety team 611 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: did a complete check of all my different policies life 612 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 2: trauma TBD and they literally in a few hours able 613 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: to restructure my policies and remove allays unnecessary stuff I 614 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: was paying for I in need and actually say five 615 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year. 616 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: Oh my god, is that there is nobody that will 617 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: be more frustrated about wasting money than you think of 618 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: all of the things that you can spend it on. 619 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: I mean literally no food or drink. 620 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: Well it's a bit of sweet because I love saving money, 621 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: but I hate the fact I wasn't saving money for team. Yes, so, 622 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: and what's just the cash saving? The Safety Nest team 623 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: also recommend a different cover up for our kids, so 624 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: I didn't realize you get kid insurance as well. Just 625 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 2: gives you extra peace of mind. The last thing you 626 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 2: want to do is leave your partner and family in 627 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: a really tough position. If God forbid, something terrible happens, 628 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: and if you don't have or aren't properly being advised 629 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: for critical insurances to protect you and your family. You 630 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: can get in touch with the team at safety Nest, 631 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: who will give our listeners a free, no obligation consultation 632 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 2: to make sure you're optimizing spend and policies. Just go 633 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 2: to safetynest dot com dot au and click to get started, 634 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: or give them a call on one three hundred zero 635 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: five five nine two two