1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,870 S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:13,630 S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 3 00:00:13,630 --> 00:00:15,940 S1: But we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:15,940 --> 00:00:19,900 S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and 5 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:21,790 S1: Malcolm Bray. How are you guys doing? 6 00:00:22,210 --> 00:00:23,890 S2: Better than you, it sounds like. 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,270 S1: Yeah, if people are wondering why I sound different, I'm. 8 00:00:28,270 --> 00:00:32,170 S1: I'm sick. I'm recording at home. I'm not physically with 9 00:00:32,170 --> 00:00:35,800 S1: either Thomas. And I'm not even physically in our Melbourne studio. 10 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:39,190 S1: You guys can't even see me as we have this recording, 11 00:00:39,190 --> 00:00:42,040 S1: because I'm hiding under some blanket to try and get 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,430 S1: the sound to be as good as possible as I record. 13 00:00:45,430 --> 00:00:47,560 S3: Yes, this is like a bit of a recurring theme 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,989 S3: for me today, actually, to be able to like, not 15 00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:52,029 S3: see you, but you can see me. I've actually come 16 00:00:52,030 --> 00:00:55,090 S3: fresh from doing a chat with Pamela Anderson only ten 17 00:00:55,090 --> 00:00:55,840 S3: minutes ago. 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,500 S1: Oh, wow. 19 00:00:56,530 --> 00:00:58,750 S3: Yeah. Yes. And I was kind of, like all prepared. 20 00:00:58,750 --> 00:01:01,480 S3: We had a zoom zoom record, and I was like, 21 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,340 S3: set up the lighting for myself. I looked pretty good, 22 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:06,400 S3: if I'm being honest. And then she she logged on 23 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,310 S3: the call and it was just like nothing. So I 24 00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:13,059 S3: could hear Pamela but couldn't see her. Sadly, I don't 25 00:01:13,060 --> 00:01:15,220 S3: know if she was also under a blanket, but we 26 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:15,970 S3: can find that out. 27 00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:18,520 S2: Were you hoping that she might when she saw you 28 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,220 S2: turn your camera on? That she might turn hers on? Yeah. 29 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:23,679 S3: The sheer power of my image, I thought, would compel her, 30 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,120 S3: but no, I did say to her, oh, it's kind 31 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,160 S3: of unnerving that I can. I can't see you and 32 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,030 S3: you can see me. And she was just. 33 00:01:28,030 --> 00:01:28,720 S2: Like, I don't care. 34 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,130 S3: You wouldn't want to see me. I've been out in 35 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:31,660 S3: the garden and I come all muddy. 36 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:34,000 S1: I'll see you actually raised it with her. You said, hey, 37 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,470 S1: like I can't see you. This is a bit. Well, yeah. 38 00:01:35,470 --> 00:01:38,170 S3: Because I think originally I was told it was going 39 00:01:38,170 --> 00:01:39,820 S3: to be a zoom, and obviously zoom implies that you 40 00:01:39,819 --> 00:01:42,009 S3: would be able to see one another. So I logged 41 00:01:42,010 --> 00:01:45,040 S3: on obviously with the great lighting and everything. Did like 42 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,520 S3: a quick party pump before like 30 push ups. Good 43 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,919 S3: to go. But yeah, it was an amazing chat and 44 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,290 S3: that will be coming out this week. You'll be able 45 00:01:53,290 --> 00:01:54,760 S3: to read that on Sunday. So yeah keep an eye 46 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,590 S3: out for that one. But yes, I'm just having chats 47 00:01:56,590 --> 00:01:58,270 S3: with people that I exclusively cannot look at today. 48 00:01:58,270 --> 00:02:00,490 S2: Now, you're a huge Pamela Anderson fan, because I remember 49 00:02:00,490 --> 00:02:02,110 S2: you telling me your story about when you were a 50 00:02:02,110 --> 00:02:05,650 S2: teenager and Pamela Anderson was actually on your phone cover. 51 00:02:05,890 --> 00:02:07,600 S3: Yeah, that was when I was keeping out of the story. 52 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,389 S3: But it's good that it's on public record now. Yes. 53 00:02:10,389 --> 00:02:13,570 S3: When I was in year eight, I loved Pamela Anderson. 54 00:02:13,570 --> 00:02:17,140 S3: But for, you know, as many year eight boys did. 55 00:02:17,139 --> 00:02:19,180 S3: But I also thought, like, I think you guys both 56 00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:21,790 S3: watched it. Her documentary last year was amazing. We're going 57 00:02:21,790 --> 00:02:23,770 S3: to be talking about some of the documentaries today. But yeah, 58 00:02:23,770 --> 00:02:26,170 S3: if you haven't seen it on Netflix, really interesting kind 59 00:02:26,169 --> 00:02:28,780 S3: of perspective on her life that we hadn't seen and 60 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,850 S3: where she kind of lands in the pop culture spectrum. 61 00:02:30,850 --> 00:02:33,700 S3: So yeah, I think she was a really, really interesting chat. 62 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,490 S3: Or at least, you know, her voice was very compelling 63 00:02:36,490 --> 00:02:40,210 S3: from the ethos. Yes. So that's that's out on Sunday. 64 00:02:40,210 --> 00:02:41,470 S3: Give it a read. 65 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:45,730 S1: We'll leave Thomas's teenage sort of, you know, cultural enjoyments 66 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:48,430 S1: for another episode because we've got we've got a big 67 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:50,620 S1: one coming up today. We're going to be getting into 68 00:02:50,620 --> 00:02:55,360 S1: the controversy surrounding comedian Hasan Minhaj, who's been accused of 69 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,750 S1: making up or exaggerating stories that he told in his 70 00:02:58,750 --> 00:03:02,620 S1: stand up routines, and the thorny questions that raises for 71 00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:05,950 S1: comedy more generally. We're also going to discuss the new 72 00:03:05,950 --> 00:03:10,540 S1: Australian documentary on Netflix. It's called one four Against All Odds, 73 00:03:10,540 --> 00:03:13,810 S1: and it explores the way police have been actively suppressing 74 00:03:13,810 --> 00:03:17,230 S1: the hip hop scene in Western Sydney. And as usual, 75 00:03:17,230 --> 00:03:21,790 S1: we'll have our Impress Your Friends recommendations, including a new 76 00:03:21,790 --> 00:03:24,910 S1: TV show from me that I am extremely buzzed about 77 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:27,370 S1: and keen to share. But before we get into all 78 00:03:27,370 --> 00:03:31,389 S1: of that, there's been some news in the world of film. Thomas, 79 00:03:31,389 --> 00:03:33,640 S1: you sent me a message this morning and you could 80 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,620 S1: not contain your glee. What is going on? 81 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:42,490 S3: Welcome to another extension of my perversions. This. So look. 82 00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:47,540 S3: I love Sydney Sweeney. It's not a secret. And and 83 00:03:47,540 --> 00:03:49,970 S3: we all know that she recently filmed Anyone But You 84 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:51,950 S3: here with Glen Powell, which comes out on Boxing Day, 85 00:03:51,950 --> 00:03:55,160 S3: I believe. But Sydney has obviously been reading my fan mail, 86 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,260 S3: and she loved Australia so much that she is coming 87 00:03:57,260 --> 00:03:59,780 S3: back to film another movie here. She has joined the 88 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:04,010 S3: cast of Oscar winner Ron Howard's latest film, which is Eden. 89 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,050 S3: Originally it was called Origin of Species, but I mean, 90 00:04:06,050 --> 00:04:09,500 S3: this is like a stacked cast. Vanessa Kirby, Joaquin Phoenix 91 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:10,910 S3: It's also got Ana de Armas. 92 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,940 S1: Jude Law, Daniel Bruhl this is a big film. 93 00:04:13,940 --> 00:04:17,029 S3: Exactly. It's based on an unsolved mystery that unfolded on 94 00:04:17,029 --> 00:04:19,700 S3: a remote island in the Galapagos. Queensland will be stepping 95 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:22,700 S3: in as the Galapagos, Queensland famously the most versatile place 96 00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:25,790 S3: to film in the universe. So yeah, that's great. Sydney 97 00:04:25,790 --> 00:04:28,190 S3: Sweeney is coming back and I look forward to probably 98 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:29,570 S3: having a zoom with her where I can't see her. 99 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:30,229 S3: I love that. 100 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:32,659 S2: You were still you're still just a 14 year old boy, 101 00:04:32,660 --> 00:04:35,810 S2: aren't you? Like, Pamela has aged out, but Sydney Sweeney, 102 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:36,920 S2: she's the new bombshell. 103 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,539 S3: Hit me up with the Pamela stuff, and I gave 104 00:04:38,540 --> 00:04:40,220 S3: a really articulate answer about how great it was to 105 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:41,630 S3: talk with all these other reasons. Do you like. Yeah. 106 00:04:41,630 --> 00:04:44,930 S3: What about your horny phone? Cats anyway? Yeah, that looks great. 107 00:04:45,050 --> 00:04:46,220 S3: So that's coming soon. 108 00:04:46,339 --> 00:04:49,940 S1: And there was some controversy on Sydney Sweeney's Instagram because she, 109 00:04:49,940 --> 00:04:51,560 S1: I think was the first one to share the news, 110 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,039 S1: and people were suggesting that maybe she had broken the 111 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,609 S1: Sag-Aftra strike by promoting a film. And how was this 112 00:04:58,610 --> 00:05:02,450 S1: even being produced? But this film, we've confirmed, has got 113 00:05:02,450 --> 00:05:05,300 S1: an exemption, which is something that the union is granting 114 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:09,110 S1: to independent productions that aren't attached to a major studio. 115 00:05:09,110 --> 00:05:12,620 S1: So that's why it can kind of start being filmed 116 00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:15,200 S1: and produced in November, and the actors are allowed to 117 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,030 S1: talk about it. So that is exciting that there are 118 00:05:17,029 --> 00:05:19,279 S1: these films that are still being made. And I should 119 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,210 S1: say those exemptions come because those smaller studios agreed to 120 00:05:23,210 --> 00:05:25,849 S1: the conditions that the unions put on them. So it's 121 00:05:25,850 --> 00:05:28,550 S1: all good. Everyone's getting paid or the royalties are being 122 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:32,360 S1: distributed fairly. There's no AI robots that we're aware of 123 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,339 S1: on this Eden production. So that's good news. Last week 124 00:05:37,339 --> 00:05:41,990 S1: on the show, we we spoke about Britney Spears new memoir. 125 00:05:41,990 --> 00:05:44,719 S1: And at that stage, we hadn't had a chance to 126 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,770 S1: read it yet. It's now out. Obviously, the reviews have 127 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:51,740 S1: been kind of middling, I think. I think the consensus 128 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:55,099 S1: is that there's some interesting stuff in there, but there's 129 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:57,980 S1: not that much of it and it isn't written particularly well. 130 00:05:57,980 --> 00:06:01,310 S1: But there was a lot of buzz around Michelle Williams 131 00:06:01,310 --> 00:06:05,659 S1: for narrating the book in a really fun and both 132 00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:08,690 S1: like deadpan at the right moment, but then dropping the 133 00:06:08,690 --> 00:06:11,330 S1: right amount of sizzle when she needed to. You've read 134 00:06:11,330 --> 00:06:14,330 S1: the book any further thoughts on what we discussed last week? 135 00:06:14,330 --> 00:06:16,730 S2: Yeah, firstly, I'd like to say that the Britney impersonator 136 00:06:16,730 --> 00:06:19,669 S2: came into the office, found me at my desk. 137 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:21,350 S1: Oh yeah? Yeah, yeah. Update us. Yeah, yeah. 138 00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:23,599 S2: She was in Britney Snake era, so she had like 139 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,850 S2: the python around her neck and she walked up and 140 00:06:25,850 --> 00:06:27,710 S2: she handed over the book to me. It was a 141 00:06:27,710 --> 00:06:30,890 S2: very unusual experience. I kind of thought we'd meet in 142 00:06:30,890 --> 00:06:33,589 S2: the foyer, but here she was at my desk. I 143 00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:35,510 S2: forced a colleague to get a photo with her. I 144 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:37,820 S2: don't think they really needed to do that, but sure. 145 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:40,370 S2: So I got the book on the day. Yeah. The 146 00:06:40,370 --> 00:06:43,520 S2: first thing I will say is that the prose is 147 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,510 S2: just so worthless. Like like it's not doing anything other 148 00:06:47,510 --> 00:06:49,880 S2: than kind of saying what it means and meaning what 149 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,870 S2: it says. It's very plods along. Michelle Williams does save 150 00:06:53,870 --> 00:06:56,599 S2: it a bit in the audio book, but in some ways, 151 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,210 S2: some of the most ridiculous lines are kind of even 152 00:06:59,210 --> 00:07:02,180 S2: more ridiculous when you hear someone say them out loud. 153 00:07:02,180 --> 00:07:05,779 S2: So it's not like, yeah, so yeah, the prose is 154 00:07:05,779 --> 00:07:08,090 S2: very bad. The other thing is it goes at such 155 00:07:08,089 --> 00:07:11,030 S2: a pace. It's like if you read Prince Harry's spare, 156 00:07:11,030 --> 00:07:14,840 S2: I know more about Apache helicopters than I have ever 157 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,880 S2: wanted to know in my entire life. 158 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,040 S1: Yeah, he fills it up with a bunch of details 159 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:19,490 S1: of things. 160 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:22,670 S2: So many details. Whereas this book, it's like one moment, 161 00:07:22,670 --> 00:07:25,160 S2: Mickey Mouse Club, that's like two paragraphs, and then it's 162 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,440 S2: like Justin breaking up with me. That's two paragraphs. And 163 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,140 S2: then I'm the biggest selling pop star in the world. 164 00:07:30,140 --> 00:07:33,590 S2: That's like a quick paragraph. So like, moves along at 165 00:07:33,590 --> 00:07:37,280 S2: such a pace, but it's so surface level that I 166 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,060 S2: kind of was left wondering either the ghostwriter didn't get 167 00:07:41,060 --> 00:07:44,180 S2: enough time with her, or they were just in such 168 00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:45,800 S2: a rush to get this book out that they didn't 169 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,470 S2: really delve into the details. So you really notice that. 170 00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:50,990 S2: But there are lots of like, it's still fun to 171 00:07:50,990 --> 00:07:53,360 S2: go back and remember moments in time, like I'd forgotten 172 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,990 S2: about their double denim at the VMAs and iconic. Yeah, 173 00:07:56,990 --> 00:07:59,000 S2: some of those iconic moments. It's fun to hear her 174 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,220 S2: talk about them, even if it is very brief. Are 175 00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:02,870 S2: you guys going to read it or listen to it? 176 00:08:03,590 --> 00:08:06,890 S3: I don't know, like, firstly, I had a really weird 177 00:08:06,890 --> 00:08:08,660 S3: moment of confusion earlier this week when everyone was talking 178 00:08:08,660 --> 00:08:10,700 S3: about Michelle Williams and I was thinking it was Destiny's 179 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:14,990 S3: Child Michelle Williams, which would be fucking hilarious if, if 180 00:08:14,990 --> 00:08:17,900 S3: like the kind of like, you know, the spare in 181 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:19,820 S3: Destiny's Child had got this gig, it makes much more 182 00:08:19,820 --> 00:08:22,130 S3: sense that it's the actress I do think we kind 183 00:08:22,130 --> 00:08:23,780 S3: of foreshadowed last week. I feel like I know the 184 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:25,280 S3: best bits of the book now, so I don't know 185 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,410 S3: if I'll be rushing to read it. Maybe once I 186 00:08:27,410 --> 00:08:28,430 S3: finished Scar Tissue. 187 00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:33,260 S1: Well, Mel, I was kind of waiting on your review 188 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:35,689 S1: because there are very few books you don't love. So 189 00:08:35,690 --> 00:08:38,390 S1: I thought if even if you are like being a 190 00:08:38,390 --> 00:08:41,960 S1: bit like, hesitant on the quality of this book, that's. 191 00:08:42,220 --> 00:08:44,530 S1: Probably not going to push me over the line, I've 192 00:08:44,530 --> 00:08:45,220 S1: got to say. 193 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:47,320 S2: I mean, I feel like you're throwing shade at my 194 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,830 S2: critical judgment, saying I like all books indiscriminately. 195 00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:55,090 S1: I think you are closer to that position than you 196 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:58,060 S1: are to the position of not liking a lot of 197 00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:01,959 S1: books that make sense. Maybe I've your default position when 198 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,510 S1: you say your book is what I'm trying to say, 199 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,590 S1: your default position when you say book is to be like, 200 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:08,530 S1: this is good, let's go. You know, I. 201 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:11,469 S2: Guess I think, look, maybe there's some truth in that, 202 00:09:11,470 --> 00:09:13,600 S2: but I also think even in a really bad book, 203 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,900 S2: you can take something interesting away from it, even if like, 204 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:21,069 S2: the quality isn't, you know, there there's always something interesting 205 00:09:21,070 --> 00:09:22,209 S2: that you can find. 206 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:23,770 S3: Mel really likes books. 207 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:24,819 S4: I've loved. 208 00:09:24,820 --> 00:09:27,550 S1: It since. The last thing we need is another book podcast. 209 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:30,700 S1: So let's get on to our first big topic. It's 210 00:09:30,940 --> 00:09:33,160 S1: one that a number of listeners have actually asked us 211 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,860 S1: to cover on the show. It's the case of Hasan 212 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:39,910 S1: Minhaj versus The New Yorker, but who guys is really 213 00:09:39,910 --> 00:09:44,740 S1: on trial? It turns out it's the entire institution of comedy. 214 00:09:44,860 --> 00:09:48,910 S1: There you go. So Minhaj first came to fame in 2014, 215 00:09:48,910 --> 00:09:52,030 S1: when he became a senior CRO for The Daily Show. 216 00:09:52,030 --> 00:09:55,690 S1: He released his first stand up special on Netflix. It 217 00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:58,929 S1: was called homecoming King came out in 2017, and it 218 00:09:58,929 --> 00:10:02,440 S1: covered his life growing up as a muslim Indian in America. 219 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,439 S5: So my dad marries my mom, they come to the States, 220 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,670 S5: they have me in Davis, California. But my mom, she 221 00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:11,770 S5: has to go back to India to finish up med school. 222 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:13,360 S5: So the first eight years of my life, it was 223 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,339 S5: just me and my dad. It was just the two 224 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:16,690 S5: of us, just two. Brown, who was trying to make 225 00:10:16,690 --> 00:10:19,000 S5: it in America minus all the unconditional love. I got 226 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,670 S5: to be real. You got to be real. Brown. Love 227 00:10:21,670 --> 00:10:24,160 S5: is very conditional. Like, you can't hear this in the photo, 228 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,900 S5: but he's like, you better get all A's. You can't 229 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:29,640 S5: hear that. Yeah. He's like, let's be real. 230 00:10:30,540 --> 00:10:34,070 S1: The Stand up special received massive critical acclaim and it 231 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,380 S1: won him a Peabody Award. The next year, he launched 232 00:10:37,380 --> 00:10:41,819 S1: his own weekly comedy new show called Patriot Act on Netflix, 233 00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:44,670 S1: and earlier this year, it was reported that he was 234 00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:48,179 S1: likely to take over from Trevor Noah as the host 235 00:10:48,179 --> 00:10:53,010 S1: of The Daily Show. But then something happened. In September, 236 00:10:53,010 --> 00:10:56,489 S1: The New Yorker released a story alleging the comedian had 237 00:10:56,490 --> 00:11:01,650 S1: fabricated or embellished stories that he used in his comedy specials. 238 00:11:01,650 --> 00:11:06,569 S1: The article received widespread publicity and sparked his conversation about 239 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:09,960 S1: the ethics of comedians and the stories they tell in 240 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,839 S1: the way that they tell them now. Just last week, 241 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,220 S1: Minhaj released a video responding to The New Yorker with 242 00:11:17,220 --> 00:11:21,720 S1: evidence he's presented, describing omissions and factual errors in their reporting. 243 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,200 S1: So this is a messy, messy situation they think goes 244 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,069 S1: to how these stories are reported, how comedians or high 245 00:11:29,070 --> 00:11:31,980 S1: profile people in general choose to respond to these things, 246 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:35,430 S1: and this bigger question of whether comedians should be allowed 247 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:39,990 S1: to embellish or perhaps even fabricate details or stories that 248 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:43,770 S1: they tell in their comedy routines. Before we kind of 249 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:46,290 S1: tackle those, I want to get your views. I'll start 250 00:11:46,290 --> 00:11:49,770 S1: with you, Thomas on Hasan generally, are you a fan 251 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:50,730 S1: of his comedy? 252 00:11:50,730 --> 00:11:53,580 S3: Yeah, I'm a big fan of his. I loved Homecoming King. 253 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:55,320 S3: I thought that was really funny, and that was kind 254 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:56,429 S3: of when I was in a big era of watching 255 00:11:56,429 --> 00:11:59,040 S3: a lot of comedy specials, and he seemed really fresh 256 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,530 S3: and like he was a new voice. And then I 257 00:12:01,530 --> 00:12:04,920 S3: thought Patriot Act was probably one of the more like, 258 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,000 S3: daring and impressive shows that, you know, like amongst all 259 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,590 S3: the John Oliver's and everyone. That was kind of coming 260 00:12:10,590 --> 00:12:12,720 S3: up at the time, I thought Patriot Act really took 261 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,760 S3: it to the next level, and it was very impressive 262 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,829 S3: feat of TV making when you really watch the show 263 00:12:16,830 --> 00:12:20,670 S3: and ironically, the research that goes into that show. So yeah, 264 00:12:20,670 --> 00:12:24,030 S3: I've always been Team Hasan and I know when this 265 00:12:24,030 --> 00:12:25,590 S3: story broke, you and I did have a bit of 266 00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:27,360 S3: back and forth about it, but as a as a 267 00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:30,630 S3: starting point, I invested in his career. 268 00:12:31,050 --> 00:12:32,939 S2: Yeah, I'm kind of the same as you. I'm not 269 00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:35,790 S2: a super duper fan and I don't follow his stuff 270 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:39,719 S2: super closely. But everything I've watched, I like and see 271 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,760 S2: kind of. I've kept an eye on the headlines about 272 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,860 S2: him over the years, and obviously a lot of the 273 00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:46,679 S2: clips that go viral. So, yeah, I think he's a 274 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,819 S2: really interesting figure in this story, is very interesting to discuss. Yeah. 275 00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:54,120 S1: It's interesting. He's kind of stand up stuff is not 276 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,640 S1: what I would have typically enjoyed. Like it's a little 277 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,880 S1: bit earnest, like Homecoming King is almost like a slide show. 278 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,820 S1: It's like a presentation about his life as much as 279 00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:05,820 S1: it is a stand up special. But I think given 280 00:13:05,820 --> 00:13:09,569 S1: his family background and my own, it's like so much 281 00:13:09,570 --> 00:13:12,000 S1: relatability to it, right? He's funny, and a lot of 282 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,120 S1: his comedy is about growing up in a Western country. 283 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,920 S1: As the son of migrants from a muslim background, the 284 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,290 S1: the aftermath of 9/11 and Islamophobia and racism and all 285 00:13:22,290 --> 00:13:24,180 S1: that sort of stuff, it's always going to be hard 286 00:13:24,179 --> 00:13:27,750 S1: for me to not watch someone grapple with that in 287 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:30,990 S1: a serious and comedic way and not enjoy it. So 288 00:13:30,990 --> 00:13:34,020 S1: I really kind of did appreciate what he was doing. 289 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:36,840 S1: And like you, Thomas, I thought Patrick was was really, 290 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,750 S1: really sharp. Like the graphics were really smart. The way 291 00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:41,850 S1: that they told stories are really interesting. They covered everything 292 00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:46,860 S1: from the US's cozy relationship to Saudi Arabia, India's descent 293 00:13:46,860 --> 00:13:49,710 S1: into fascism, and like the way that Spotify and YouTube 294 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:51,900 S1: algorithms are changing the way hip hop is made. So 295 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:55,140 S1: it was very like my areas in terms of topics 296 00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:58,079 S1: and stories that I cared about. So it was really 297 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,099 S1: interesting to to see this all kind of blow up. 298 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:04,980 S1: And my initial thing was like, oh man, not another 299 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:07,260 S1: one of like the few guys that I really care 300 00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:10,350 S1: about being taken down. And then the more I read 301 00:14:10,350 --> 00:14:12,929 S1: the New Yorker story, the kind of more questions I 302 00:14:12,929 --> 00:14:16,470 S1: had about the newsworthiness of this, and was really interested 303 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:18,390 S1: to see what he had to say. So let's look 304 00:14:18,390 --> 00:14:21,870 S1: at some of the allegations The New Yorker article raises 305 00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:24,390 S1: and his response to them. And I think we can 306 00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:28,229 S1: sort of unpack it from there. So in a homecoming king, 307 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:32,430 S1: The New Yorker claims that Minhaj embellished a story about 308 00:14:32,430 --> 00:14:36,480 S1: being rejected by his white prom date when he arrived 309 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,000 S1: at her doorstep on the night of the prom, and 310 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,030 S1: he tells the audience that her parents didn't want their 311 00:14:42,030 --> 00:14:44,880 S1: daughter to take pictures on prom with a brown boy 312 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,730 S1: because they were concerned about what their relatives might think 313 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:50,820 S1: and like. When he tells that story on stage, that 314 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:53,670 S1: it really hits like, you feel really sad for this 315 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:56,730 S1: guy who, through no fault of his own, just happens 316 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:58,260 S1: to be living in a part of the world at 317 00:14:58,260 --> 00:15:02,280 S1: a particular point in time where his white prom date 318 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,040 S1: does not want to take him out because she's scared 319 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,950 S1: about being seen with a muslim guy. Both very devastating 320 00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:10,950 S1: and very relatable to a lot of people. Again, the 321 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:14,040 S1: magazine interviewed the woman at the center of this, this 322 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,010 S1: sort of claim or this story, and they reported that 323 00:15:17,010 --> 00:15:20,070 S1: she turned down Minhaj, who was a friend of hers, 324 00:15:20,070 --> 00:15:23,400 S1: days before the dance. So basically saying this didn't happen 325 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,970 S1: on prom night. He's exaggerated that story for comedic. An 326 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:31,860 S1: emotional impact, but that's not actually what happened. In another example, 327 00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:34,800 S1: this is his follow up stand up special, The King's Jester. 328 00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:38,130 S1: The New Yorker reports that he tells a story about 329 00:15:38,130 --> 00:15:41,490 S1: this guy called Brother Eric, who was allegedly sent to 330 00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:45,630 S1: spy on his Californian Muslim community. Like post 911 in 331 00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:49,560 S1: the early 2000, as an FBI informant, Minhaj says that 332 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,340 S1: he jokingly told brother Eric that he wanted to get 333 00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:56,370 S1: his pilot's license and then in response, was slammed into 334 00:15:56,370 --> 00:15:58,650 S1: the hood of a car. Now, in an interview with 335 00:15:58,650 --> 00:16:01,770 S1: the magazine, Minhaj says that that story isn't exactly what happened. 336 00:16:01,770 --> 00:16:04,739 S1: It was sort of based on a physical foul he 337 00:16:04,740 --> 00:16:08,730 S1: received during a game of basketball, and that the baseball 338 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:12,660 S1: games that he played with young Muslim boys also involved 339 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:16,109 S1: middle aged men who they thought were undercover officers. This 340 00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:18,780 S1: is how The New Yorker sort of portrays the actual 341 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:22,770 S1: story versus how it was told in the comedy routine. 342 00:16:23,070 --> 00:16:25,530 S1: In response to all that, Minhaj says that The New 343 00:16:25,530 --> 00:16:30,120 S1: Yorker article was needless misleading and that it made it 344 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,690 S1: seem like he was faking racism. When he says that, 345 00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:37,080 S1: it was a shifting around of details to tell stories 346 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,070 S1: in a particular way. He also provided screenshots of emails 347 00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:44,460 S1: with the woman from that anecdote around prom, in which 348 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:47,580 S1: she said that her parents have come a long way 349 00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:51,450 S1: after Minhaj congratulated her on marrying a man of color. 350 00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:54,300 S1: And in terms of the fake FBI informant story, he 351 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:57,900 S1: says even though that interaction didn't happen exactly the way 352 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,140 S1: he told audiences, he said the goal was to highlight 353 00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:04,080 S1: these real stories of people in the Muslim community who 354 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,790 S1: were being surveilled. 355 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:11,730 S5: The truth is, racism, FBI surveillance and threats to my 356 00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:15,960 S5: family happened. And I said this on the record, so 357 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,070 S5: I'm going to do the most Husein image thing ever. 358 00:17:20,070 --> 00:17:22,140 S5: I'm going to do a deep dive on my own 359 00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:25,920 S5: scandal with graphics, because there was so much evidence I 360 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,110 S5: gave the New Yorker that they ignored that. I want 361 00:17:28,109 --> 00:17:28,920 S5: to show you. 362 00:17:29,310 --> 00:17:31,110 S1: I feel like there's a lot here, and I think 363 00:17:31,109 --> 00:17:33,210 S1: jump in if you guys think my summation of this 364 00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:37,200 S1: is wrong, but it seems like what the allegations sort 365 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,800 S1: of boil down to is not that the the kind 366 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,820 S1: of like thrust of these stories that Minhaj was subject 367 00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:47,160 S1: to racist experiences, or that the community that is a 368 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,590 S1: part of was subject to racist and Islamophobia. They're not 369 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:52,050 S1: saying like, that didn't happen. They're saying that the way 370 00:17:52,050 --> 00:17:55,080 S1: he told stories, with the level of specificity in detail 371 00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:59,670 S1: isn't actually what happened, and therefore that is worth covering. 372 00:17:59,670 --> 00:18:03,720 S1: That is worth writing about because he is both a comedian, 373 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,330 S1: but also a guy. That kind of is, I guess, 374 00:18:06,330 --> 00:18:08,580 S1: a news reporter due to the way he tells stories 375 00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:11,459 S1: in his work on Patriot Act, and therefore it's worth, 376 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:16,140 S1: I guess, fact checking his comedy routines. Like I said, 377 00:18:16,140 --> 00:18:19,320 S1: there's a lot going on. What are your immediate reactions 378 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,870 S1: to those allegations in his responses? 379 00:18:22,590 --> 00:18:24,810 S3: Yeah. I think, like you said, there is a lot 380 00:18:24,810 --> 00:18:27,389 S3: going on that kind of blurs the lines. The fact 381 00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:30,000 S3: that he does a show like Patriot Act means he 382 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,750 S3: can't just sit like solely in the comedian cam, and 383 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:36,119 S3: then might get there for a bit more leeway when 384 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,860 S3: it comes to embellishing. Everyone knows comedians embellish for effect. 385 00:18:40,350 --> 00:18:42,450 S3: You don't go to a comedy show and expect everything 386 00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:45,180 S3: you're hearing on stage to be a whole truth. But 387 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:49,140 S3: I think Minhaj has position as Patriot Act host, which 388 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:53,250 S3: is so grounded in facts, makes people the bar is 389 00:18:53,250 --> 00:18:55,139 S3: higher for him. Whether that's fair or not is a 390 00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:57,630 S3: different issue. That's just a reality. So that's one thing 391 00:18:57,630 --> 00:19:00,149 S3: I think that makes it tricky for me. And the 392 00:19:00,150 --> 00:19:01,620 S3: other thing I think is kind of what you touched 393 00:19:01,619 --> 00:19:03,389 S3: on before. And this was when when it first broken 394 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:05,490 S3: you and I kind of disagreed on it. This was 395 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:09,570 S3: what I thought was a bit tricky. Like, he's not 396 00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:11,970 S3: a comedian that tells a bunch of stories like in 397 00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:14,490 S3: a row, and some of those anecdotes are made up. 398 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,940 S3: The problem is that he tells these very specific, detailed 399 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:21,810 S3: anecdotes that seem so rooted in truth, which then, like 400 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:24,630 S3: raise the stakes and make the payoffs so much stronger. 401 00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:26,459 S3: Both like whether it's, you know, a bit of an 402 00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:28,889 S3: emotional payoff or a sad payoff or a funny payoff, 403 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:31,500 S3: but it's very specific that these bits will be like 404 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:34,469 S3: 20 minute stories where the detail is so like the 405 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:37,470 S3: color is so vivid. You're like, this is obviously a 406 00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:39,960 S3: true story. So it's not like a, you know, like 407 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,080 S3: quick setup bang payoff joke. And who cares if it's true? 408 00:19:43,290 --> 00:19:46,679 S3: It's like he forces the audience or he invests in 409 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,649 S3: the audience believing in the truth of this story. And 410 00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:51,780 S3: that's what makes it so great. And that's why I 411 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:53,700 S3: think people were a little bit like, well, hold on, 412 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:57,420 S3: some of this stuff didn't happen. And perhaps other comedians 413 00:19:57,420 --> 00:20:00,480 S3: who also embellish haven't been held to the same standard 414 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,470 S3: because of the way Minhaj structured his act. 415 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,109 S2: Yeah, I this story kind of blows my mind, and 416 00:20:07,109 --> 00:20:09,810 S2: I probably don't watch as much comedy as you guys, 417 00:20:09,810 --> 00:20:12,870 S2: but the comedy that I do like is his style. 418 00:20:12,869 --> 00:20:15,570 S2: I like the long, narrative driven sets, but I mean, 419 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:18,150 S2: it's called a comedy set or a comedy act. Never 420 00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:21,570 S2: have I ever thought that I was getting the truth 421 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:25,560 S2: when like when these people did, did their bits and 422 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,670 S2: the level of fact checking that went into this story. 423 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:32,970 S2: I think if you applied that to literally any comedian, 424 00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:36,240 S2: you would find that their stories have been exaggerated or 425 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,129 S2: the details changed. And maybe I'm more cynical than or 426 00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:45,120 S2: expect less authenticity than other people from my comedians, but 427 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:48,750 S2: I really didn't see that this is an issue particular 428 00:20:48,750 --> 00:20:51,119 S2: to him or. And I wasn't even surprised by the 429 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,810 S2: revelations that he had tweaked details or added things or embellished. 430 00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:58,110 S2: I presumed they all do that. But I will say, 431 00:20:58,109 --> 00:21:01,680 S2: I think the kind of gotcha moment of people lying 432 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,770 S2: about autobiography is kind of a well-trodden trope. I think 433 00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:08,010 S2: of James Frey, that author who wrote Was It a 434 00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:10,470 S2: million Little Pieces? And then it all turned out to 435 00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:14,040 S2: be kind of exaggerated. I think we like these gotcha stories. We, 436 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,510 S2: you know, obviously have a few of them in our 437 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:19,080 S2: past in Australia, Helen winning the Miles Franklin, and there 438 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,060 S2: was a more recent one with a police officer kind 439 00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:25,350 S2: of embellishing details about the roles he had done. I 440 00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:28,139 S2: think we we do like these stories and finding these 441 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:31,109 S2: kind of discrepancies between people, what people say they have 442 00:21:31,109 --> 00:21:34,470 S2: done and what they haven't, but particularly for comedians, I 443 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:36,480 S2: don't know, I just don't you expect that they all 444 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:37,170 S2: do this? 445 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:39,570 S3: Yeah, I do, I think, but I get I think 446 00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:44,250 S3: it's maybe the way which is that crafted his career 447 00:21:44,250 --> 00:21:46,920 S3: and so and I do, I do I do agree 448 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,479 S3: with you that there's no doubt in my mind that 449 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,790 S3: the New Yorker probably stumbled across this. You know, it 450 00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:52,260 S3: sounds like they did a fair bit of research and 451 00:21:52,260 --> 00:21:54,420 S3: spoke to a lot of people, including ex staffers, and 452 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:56,160 S3: no doubt they were like, this will be a good 453 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,580 S3: gotcha story that will 100% make headlines. And, you know, 454 00:21:59,580 --> 00:22:01,590 S3: it is kind of unfortunate because there are probably a 455 00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:03,899 S3: million other comedians guilty of the same thing, but I 456 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,050 S3: don't know if that necessarily makes it not a story. 457 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,720 S3: And yeah, I don't know, like Osbourne, you and I 458 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,540 S3: went back and forth when this first happened. I think 459 00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:16,860 S3: Hassan's video was quite good and I'm not surprised that. 460 00:22:16,859 --> 00:22:19,200 S3: So if you guys haven't seen it's worth going and watch. 461 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,060 S3: Like his, he's made a 20 minute kind of like 462 00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:24,600 S3: rebuke of the New Yorker story. It's really well done 463 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,340 S3: and I think it makes some really good points. It's 464 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:28,710 S3: not surprising to me that he starts with a very 465 00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:31,980 S3: evidence heavy rebuttal to The New Yorker. In regards to 466 00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:33,209 S3: the prom date story. 467 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:35,189 S5: I say that I show up at Bethany's house on 468 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:37,410 S5: prom night, but at the doorstep, her mom tells me 469 00:22:37,410 --> 00:22:38,939 S5: they don't want her to go to prom with me 470 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:40,740 S5: because they'll be taking a lot of pictures, and they 471 00:22:40,740 --> 00:22:43,740 S5: don't want their family back home to see her with 472 00:22:43,740 --> 00:22:49,350 S5: a brown boy. Bethany's mom did really say that. It 473 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:52,980 S5: was just a few days before prom, and I created 474 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:56,399 S5: the doorstep scene to drop the audience into the feeling 475 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,010 S5: of that moment, which I told the reporter. 476 00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:01,560 S6: Is the doorstep moment true? Like, did that happen? 477 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,380 S5: No, no, no, it happened before. Like. But the emotional 478 00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:05,879 S5: truth remains the same because. 479 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,639 S3: That's, I think, where they were most misleading. And he 480 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,909 S3: provides pretty compelling evidence that that really happened, you know, 481 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,290 S3: in a way that the embellishment isn't relevant, like all 482 00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:18,270 S3: of the truth of that story and the racism involved 483 00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:21,720 S3: in that story and is true, I think it gets 484 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,570 S3: weaker when it comes to like the FBI informant stuff. 485 00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:26,820 S2: But can I ask it? I'm not throwing you under 486 00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:29,310 S2: the bus here, but just out of interest. You write 487 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:33,290 S2: a weekly column that is ostensibly nonfiction, and you're telling. 488 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:36,720 S2: Do you think if we went back and fact checked 489 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,119 S2: every single fact, do you think it would be wrong 490 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,450 S2: if you had embellished some of those comments, like from 491 00:23:42,450 --> 00:23:45,600 S2: your own perspective, as a creator who is kind of 492 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,750 S2: putting out comedy that is entertainment, but ostensibly based on 493 00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:51,629 S2: your own experience? I mean, do you think it's wrong 494 00:23:51,630 --> 00:23:53,310 S2: for a columnist to do that? 495 00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:57,179 S3: No. Like I was waiting for this. 496 00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:59,280 S2: Sorry, I am not actually meaning to catch you out. 497 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:00,690 S2: I'm just, like, curious about. 498 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:04,080 S3: All of my column is completely stands up. No, no, 499 00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:06,959 S3: like I think no, I appreciate that. And and I 500 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,480 S3: know what you're saying, and I think I think what 501 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,750 S3: where it gets interesting again is what subjects the embellishments 502 00:24:12,750 --> 00:24:15,510 S3: are about. So obviously this is like an emotional one 503 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:18,960 S3: for people because he's talking about like Islamophobia and racism 504 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,390 S3: and like these kind of like pivotal moments in his life. 505 00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:24,540 S3: And so I think there are naturally then more eyes 506 00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:27,420 S3: on like if, if his embellishment was to do with like, 507 00:24:27,420 --> 00:24:30,360 S3: you know, a conversation that happened with a person about 508 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,369 S3: like an argument about a car park or whatever, something 509 00:24:32,369 --> 00:24:36,990 S3: like anecdotal and funny and we wouldn't be as invested. 510 00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:40,200 S3: But because it's like this girl rejected me for prom 511 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,370 S3: because I am a muslim, inevitably people get more invested 512 00:24:44,369 --> 00:24:46,170 S3: in that. So yeah, I know what you're saying. And 513 00:24:46,170 --> 00:24:47,970 S3: I do think, like, of course there are times when 514 00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:51,450 S3: I like play with timelines or conversations in order to like, 515 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:55,260 S3: make the message of whatever I'm writing land better or 516 00:24:55,260 --> 00:24:59,100 S3: funnier or harder. But yeah, I think unfortunately, in this case, 517 00:24:59,369 --> 00:25:01,350 S3: the New Yorker has probably zeroed in on it so 518 00:25:01,350 --> 00:25:04,470 S3: much because of exactly what was at stake in his stories. 519 00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:06,929 S1: I think that's a really good way of putting it. 520 00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:09,510 S1: And maybe I'll tell you guys about my my kind 521 00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:13,680 S1: of journey with grappling with these ideas from reading the 522 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,290 S1: original New Yorker story and to like where we are 523 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:20,639 S1: now when that story first kind of came across my feed, 524 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,209 S1: my initial reaction was like, really? Like The New Yorker, 525 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:27,720 S1: which is a great publication, which has an amazing, robust 526 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,659 S1: team of journalists and fact checkers and editors and is 527 00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:34,440 S1: very meticulous, like, like in this current era, is choosing 528 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,449 S1: to fact check a comedian's stand up routine in the 529 00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:43,889 S1: midst of him potentially being seen as the replacement for 530 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:46,650 S1: The Daily Show. Right? And like, you know, the Daily 531 00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:48,720 S1: Show isn't what it used to be, but it's still 532 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,409 S1: one of the biggest regular television comedy shows around. It 533 00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:55,020 S1: would be a big deal for someone like Hasan Minhaj 534 00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:58,020 S1: to get that show. There's a guy called Matt Belloni. 535 00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:00,420 S1: He has a podcast called The Town. He writes for 536 00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:04,500 S1: a US outlet called Puck News. He's reported that hasn't 537 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:07,830 S1: been charged, and Comedy Central had essentially signed the deal 538 00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:10,500 S1: for him to take over The Daily Show. Or at 539 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,830 S1: least Minaj's team thought that had happened. Then this New 540 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:16,050 S1: Yorker story came out and sort of everything sort of 541 00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:18,450 S1: fell apart. So it sort of felt like, okay, this 542 00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:21,989 S1: is a pretty heavy handed intervention that the outcome of 543 00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:24,480 S1: which is this guy who everyone thinks is pretty good 544 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,119 S1: at his job, not getting a show, because a couple 545 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,820 S1: of stories he told don't meet The New Yorker's fact 546 00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:33,480 S1: checking that that firstly, kind of just didn't sit right 547 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,210 S1: with me. Then secondly, the certain kinds of people who 548 00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:42,570 S1: are relishing and celebrating, like, as you put it, mail 549 00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:46,710 S1: like people being gutted, I found not great because whilst 550 00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:49,409 S1: the three of us, I think, genuinely appreciate hustling to 551 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:53,669 S1: different degrees, there's always been this like crowd of people 552 00:26:53,670 --> 00:26:56,910 S1: who don't like his mannerisms. I'll find him arrogant and 553 00:26:56,940 --> 00:26:59,490 S1: offputting and don't enjoy the way the sort of lectures people. 554 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:03,510 S1: I personally find that difficult to disconnect from the fact that, 555 00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:05,489 S1: like he is a brown guy, like there's such a 556 00:27:05,490 --> 00:27:08,790 S1: trope of the uppity brown guy who thinks that he's 557 00:27:08,790 --> 00:27:10,830 S1: smarter than you and telling you what to do. And 558 00:27:10,830 --> 00:27:13,920 S1: I think there's a lot of coded racism in that. 559 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,960 S1: Even here in Australia, when you think about someone like 560 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,450 S1: Waleed Ali, right. Like that's not something that I agree 561 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:21,180 S1: with 100% of the time, but you read the comments 562 00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:23,909 S1: on any story or any YouTube clip involving Waleed, and 563 00:27:23,910 --> 00:27:26,310 S1: it's like this arrogant guy thinks so much better than 564 00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:27,449 S1: the rest of us. And I think a lot of 565 00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:30,959 S1: that existed for Hasan Minhaj as well. So then when 566 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,390 S1: he was being critiqued by The New Yorker, a lot 567 00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:35,820 S1: of people who had to sort of like hide in 568 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:38,520 S1: the shadows came out and were like, oh, yeah, told 569 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,379 S1: you this guy sucked, and he was wrong all along. 570 00:27:40,380 --> 00:27:42,690 S1: So that was the second part of what didn't sit 571 00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:44,820 S1: right with me with this story. And then the third bit. 572 00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:47,300 S1: And this is the bigger question that we've been talking about, is, 573 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,960 S1: is he not allowed to just say whatever the hell 574 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,030 S1: he wants to say? Like, what if 90% of his 575 00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:56,780 S1: stories were made up stories? Why does that matter that much? 576 00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:59,750 S1: I think, Thomas, you've done a good job of explaining, like, 577 00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:02,510 S1: why does matter when his comedy relies on an emotional 578 00:28:02,510 --> 00:28:06,320 S1: connection and a grappling of real issues to do with 579 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,139 S1: real events post 911. Like, I think it's kind of 580 00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:12,830 S1: incumbent on a comedian to simultaneously not pretend that this 581 00:28:12,830 --> 00:28:16,670 S1: joke or this story lands because I'm conveying it's truth, 582 00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:19,250 S1: but actually it's not true. Like, you kind of can't 583 00:28:19,250 --> 00:28:22,130 S1: do both of those things. And I think as time 584 00:28:22,130 --> 00:28:25,520 S1: has gone on, my thoughts on that have. Have shifted 585 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,080 S1: a bit both back and forth because initially I was like, well, 586 00:28:30,290 --> 00:28:33,139 S1: the New Yorker seems to be saying like the general 587 00:28:33,140 --> 00:28:36,560 S1: summation of their critiques, like, oh, his his prom date 588 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,850 S1: didn't dump him because of racism. He wasn't really being surveilled. 589 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:44,030 S1: His family wasn't really experiencing Islamophobia. I'm like The New 590 00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:48,170 S1: Yorker's really out here saying to this guy that Islamophobia 591 00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:50,180 S1: and racism didn't exist. Why are you talking about it? 592 00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:53,030 S1: And that, to me was also upsetting because the thrust 593 00:28:53,030 --> 00:28:55,130 S1: of what he was saying is true. If some bits 594 00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:59,180 S1: were like, shifted around or exaggerated to deliver that big 595 00:28:59,180 --> 00:29:02,030 S1: a point within a comedy routine, not within, like a 596 00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:06,440 S1: serious essay, who really cares? But then I've also started 597 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,200 S1: to understand the flip of that, which is that if 598 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,770 S1: you are talking about issues like as serious as these, 599 00:29:12,770 --> 00:29:16,940 S1: as emotionally resonant and as important for millions of people 600 00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:20,750 S1: like these kinds of issues around Islamophobia and race, you 601 00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:24,080 S1: don't want to create gaps in a narrative that allow 602 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,500 S1: detractors or critics to say, you're a liar and they're 603 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:29,690 S1: all made up, like, as frustrating as it is, but 604 00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:30,920 S1: that is the world that we live in. You don't 605 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,410 S1: want people to say, oh, things aren't actually that bad 606 00:29:33,410 --> 00:29:36,530 S1: for Muslims post 911, because Minhaj was lying about his 607 00:29:36,530 --> 00:29:39,050 S1: white girlfriend not going on prom date with him. There 608 00:29:39,050 --> 00:29:41,840 S1: is like a responsibility I think you have to the 609 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,970 S1: community at that level. Does that make sense? 610 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,850 S3: Yeah, for sure. And I think, yeah, like it's annoying 611 00:29:46,850 --> 00:29:48,740 S3: because what I know what he was trying to do, 612 00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:52,910 S3: but obviously this whole situation like it's like have you 613 00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:55,610 S3: kind of like has it backfired on you? I also 614 00:29:55,610 --> 00:29:58,400 S3: think like particularly with the brother Eric stuff. So that's 615 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,180 S3: you know, him. Brother Eric is a real FBI informant. 616 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:07,580 S3: This guy named Craig who, you know, like infiltrated Muslim communities, 617 00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:10,100 S3: like through the like through Jim, like, got in touch with, like, 618 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:12,739 S3: young guys who are working out and stuff and and 619 00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:15,410 S3: he's a real person. And he. This is the person 620 00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:18,620 S3: that Minhaj used in his bit and said that, you know, 621 00:30:18,620 --> 00:30:21,110 S3: that he wanted to get his pilot license. And as 622 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:22,730 S3: it turns out, Brother Eric was actually in jail at 623 00:30:22,730 --> 00:30:24,650 S3: the time. And I think, like, again, this is more 624 00:30:24,650 --> 00:30:26,360 S3: of an error as a comedian, I think is like, 625 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,690 S3: if you are going to embellish, don't get so specific 626 00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:32,630 S3: because that's such an easy catch out. And, you know, 627 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,060 S3: and again, I do think that was interesting in the 628 00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:37,490 S3: rebuttal video from in Hajj, he kind of says, like 629 00:30:37,490 --> 00:30:40,430 S3: I really did, you know, like come across informants and, 630 00:30:40,430 --> 00:30:42,140 S3: you know, I was playing these like pick up basketball games. 631 00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:43,820 S3: And it was an experience that me and my teenage 632 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:45,800 S3: friends had, you know, you would see these guys and 633 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,720 S3: they were coming like, hang out with us. And they 634 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,630 S3: were obviously trying to, you know, they infiltrated the local 635 00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:52,850 S3: mosque and stuff. And he doesn't provide much detail, and 636 00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:55,580 S3: I don't I'm inclined to believe him, but I just 637 00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:58,130 S3: think he kind of dug a grave for himself in 638 00:30:58,130 --> 00:31:01,040 S3: choosing this very real person and inserting him into what 639 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,500 S3: seemed like a very real story. And then, lo and behold, 640 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,560 S3: like when that proves not to be true, it's just, 641 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,620 S3: unfortunately for him, it weakens the impact of the original joke, 642 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:12,110 S3: which I support. Like I think what he was doing 643 00:31:12,110 --> 00:31:13,640 S3: was the right thing, but he went about it the 644 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:14,420 S3: wrong way. 645 00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:18,110 S2: Yeah, I agree, I think the the rebuttal video was 646 00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:20,180 S2: pretty interesting to in another way, because it kind of 647 00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:24,560 S2: lifted the curtains on the journalism of the New Yorker reporter, 648 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,530 S2: like the fact that he had the recordings and he 649 00:31:27,530 --> 00:31:30,410 S2: showed how, you know, quotes had been spliced together and 650 00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:33,830 S2: other parts had been left out. I thought that made 651 00:31:33,830 --> 00:31:36,230 S2: his side look very convincing. And, you know, he had 652 00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:38,030 S2: emails that he had sent to The New Yorker that 653 00:31:38,030 --> 00:31:40,700 S2: they didn't pick up on all of that. Like, I 654 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:43,670 S2: thought that actually helped his case a lot, because it 655 00:31:43,670 --> 00:31:47,240 S2: did show how journalists construct articles and whoever is right 656 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,310 S2: or wrong. In this case, it shows the kind of 657 00:31:49,310 --> 00:31:51,590 S2: construction that went into that piece, which I think kind 658 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:53,450 S2: of definitely helped his case. Yeah. 659 00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:55,820 S1: That brings me back to this question of like the 660 00:31:55,820 --> 00:32:00,170 S1: newsworthiness or not, of this whole thing. Like, I think 661 00:32:00,170 --> 00:32:03,380 S1: it's interesting in a way, I'm glad that it exists 662 00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:05,930 S1: because we can talk about these bigger questions. But you 663 00:32:05,930 --> 00:32:08,030 S1: made this point right at the start mail. Like if 664 00:32:08,030 --> 00:32:11,870 S1: you did this with any stand up comedian or any 665 00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:15,530 S1: daily show host, you could come up with, like the 666 00:32:15,530 --> 00:32:19,400 S1: exact same critiques, if not more. And I take Thomas's 667 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,070 S1: point that Hasan Minhaj is like a little bit more 668 00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:25,850 S1: of a narrative storyteller, a little bit more of a polemicist. 669 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,880 S1: But like Trevor Noah is a polemicist, John Oliver is 670 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,380 S1: a polemicist like these guys have throughout their careers told 671 00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:36,140 S1: stories that I'm sure are embellished. I sort of like 672 00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:40,940 S1: I wonder about, again, like a publication as lauded as 673 00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:45,290 S1: The New Yorker choosing to target firstly a comedian, but 674 00:32:45,290 --> 00:32:47,840 S1: then be the first time we're really going in on this. 675 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,540 S1: It's like just happens to be the guy who could 676 00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:53,330 S1: be the first Muslim guy to host The Daily Show, 677 00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:56,750 S1: who makes jokes about Islamophobia, that that still doesn't sit 678 00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:57,469 S1: right with me. 679 00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:00,020 S2: Yeah, I agree, and the piece is not a profile 680 00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:02,570 S2: for which the New Yorker is obviously quite famous for. 681 00:33:02,570 --> 00:33:05,450 S2: Like the angle of the piece is his mistruths, and 682 00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:08,330 S2: that's all the piece is really about. I don't know, 683 00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:10,460 S2: I'm kind of conflicted and maybe I haven't thought about 684 00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:12,590 S2: this enough. Usually when I have, usually I struggle to 685 00:33:12,590 --> 00:33:14,540 S2: find us. You know, you guys make fun of me 686 00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:18,170 S2: for sitting in the middle because I guess I can 687 00:33:18,170 --> 00:33:20,540 S2: I can always struggle with the two sides of it, 688 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:22,190 S2: but I just, I don't know, maybe. 689 00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:23,810 S1: You can't say the other side of this one. 690 00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:26,380 S2: I'm struggling. Like, maybe I'm too, like, I don't know, 691 00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:29,739 S2: to post-truth or to like dark about the world, but 692 00:33:29,740 --> 00:33:32,500 S2: I just presume everyone is lying about everything all the 693 00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:34,360 S2: time and commenting. 694 00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:36,130 S3: Except for the people that give you nice reviews. 695 00:33:36,580 --> 00:33:38,170 S2: And comedy is only. 696 00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:39,940 S1: That's a breakout quote from this episode. 697 00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:44,500 S2: The comedy is only funny. Like life isn't just funny. 698 00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:47,830 S2: Comedians put life in an order that makes it funny. 699 00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:51,400 S1: I just that's isn't that so true? It's like if 700 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,550 S1: comic comedians are just telling you things that happened literally. 701 00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:57,730 S1: That's not funny. That's just life. And if comedians make 702 00:33:57,730 --> 00:34:00,700 S1: up stories that are so wildly disconnected from life, there's 703 00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:03,640 S1: no relatability and they're not funny. So the best comedy 704 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,090 S1: forever has been bits of life that are relatable, heightened, 705 00:34:07,090 --> 00:34:10,359 S1: or exaggerated to be hilarious. This I still I'm with 706 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,100 S1: you kind of. Mel. I'm not saying that Tom is 707 00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:14,320 S1: to dismiss your points. I think you've done a very 708 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,560 S1: good job of articulating a lot of the concerns around 709 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,290 S1: this issue, and and I share some of them. But again, 710 00:34:20,290 --> 00:34:22,120 S1: the more I think about it, the more I'm just like, 711 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,489 S1: who gives a shit at the end of the day? 712 00:34:24,489 --> 00:34:27,609 S2: Yeah, I agree. And yes, it's not like they were 713 00:34:27,610 --> 00:34:30,220 S2: his comedy sets and I understand that he plays different roles, 714 00:34:30,219 --> 00:34:33,910 S2: but I think in the storytelling as he makes the difference, 715 00:34:33,910 --> 00:34:36,310 S2: I do by that difference as well. But I don't 716 00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:37,870 S2: know when you bump into people in the kitchen and 717 00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:40,150 S2: they tell you some like travesty that happened to them 718 00:34:40,150 --> 00:34:42,189 S2: on the way to work, I'm like, you definitely playing 719 00:34:42,190 --> 00:34:45,370 S2: that up by 50%. Isn't that just what people do? 720 00:34:45,370 --> 00:34:46,570 S2: That's what a story. 721 00:34:46,750 --> 00:34:48,730 S3: Handing them like 50 bucks for them to tell you 722 00:34:48,730 --> 00:34:50,799 S3: the story. I think like know the difference to me, 723 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,379 S3: like as I said before, is about the subject matter 724 00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:57,310 S3: and like it crystallized perfectly in this kind of example 725 00:34:57,310 --> 00:34:58,509 S3: that I will now give you. 726 00:34:59,020 --> 00:34:59,650 S4: Here it comes. 727 00:35:00,850 --> 00:35:03,580 S3: So recently I watched Baby Jay, the John Mulaney special 728 00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:07,689 S3: about his kind of like, mental breakdown, cocaine addiction, going 729 00:35:07,690 --> 00:35:09,550 S3: to rehab. I think you guys are both seen it. 730 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,380 S2: I have not, but on the list. 731 00:35:11,540 --> 00:35:14,049 S3: Okay, well, it's really funny. You should watch it. But 732 00:35:14,050 --> 00:35:16,660 S3: at some point in the special, he kind of relays 733 00:35:16,660 --> 00:35:20,620 S3: this interview he did with GQ magazine in America when 734 00:35:20,620 --> 00:35:22,750 S3: when he was in rehab. And the telling of it 735 00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:26,470 S3: is like hilarious because he's like fucking out of his 736 00:35:26,469 --> 00:35:29,320 S3: mind on cocaine. And the way in which he tells 737 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,410 S3: how this interview goes with GQ is really, really funny because, like, 738 00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:34,900 S3: he's kind of talking about how it's like his descent 739 00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,900 S3: into madness and everything. And then I remember watching that 740 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:39,819 S3: and being like, that's really funny. But also like, well, 741 00:35:39,820 --> 00:35:42,130 S3: that's a real interview that I can go and read. 742 00:35:42,130 --> 00:35:44,710 S3: So I went and read it. And the way in 743 00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:47,110 S3: which the interview actually takes place is like very much 744 00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:49,960 S3: not as chaotic as he makes out in the special. 745 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,020 S3: And it's but it's probably the best part of the special. 746 00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:54,880 S3: And so then I googled it and there were a 747 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,640 S3: few people online being like, oh, I feel like John 748 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,250 S3: Mulaney kind of embellished here. And the interview is not 749 00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:01,960 S3: as crazy as he makes it out to be in 750 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,210 S3: the special. And it's a bit unfair and stuff, but 751 00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:06,880 S3: like the response to it is like a murmur compared 752 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,580 S3: to what's happened with Hasan Minhaj. And I guess again, 753 00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:13,600 S3: it comes back to unfortunately, at this particular juncture, this 754 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,900 S3: particular point in time that we're in, especially with comedy 755 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,259 S3: and everything else going on socially, there are more people 756 00:36:20,260 --> 00:36:22,720 S3: prepared to get more upset about the particular issues that 757 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,050 S3: he jokes and writes about. And so, yeah, like whether 758 00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:28,540 S3: it's right or wrong, inevitably it makes sense to me 759 00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:31,960 S3: that people are like this story that you said about 760 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,640 S3: people being racist to you as a young man, that 761 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,730 S3: didn't happen, or this story about Islamophobia at this time 762 00:36:36,730 --> 00:36:39,370 S3: was misrepresented. And yeah, so I think it just comes 763 00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:40,810 S3: back to ultimately the subject matter. 764 00:36:41,469 --> 00:36:43,450 S1: Yeah. And I think there are comedians like, you know, 765 00:36:43,450 --> 00:36:46,509 S1: our paper spoke to sarangi man, who's a Sri Lankan 766 00:36:46,510 --> 00:36:50,920 S1: Australian comedian who's told his own kind of like comedy 767 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,860 S1: stories about race and Australia and that sort of thing. 768 00:36:53,860 --> 00:36:57,730 S1: And he's talked about, of course, comedians should be allowed 769 00:36:57,730 --> 00:37:02,230 S1: to embellish. But when you're talking about something like racism 770 00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:07,330 S1: and the emotional core of, of of an issue like that, 771 00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:10,900 S1: there is this responsibility to get details right as much 772 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:13,150 S1: as possible. And I think I still don't know if 773 00:37:13,150 --> 00:37:15,790 S1: I 100% agree with that, but I can see the 774 00:37:15,790 --> 00:37:19,390 S1: distinction between that and something like, you know, oh my God, 775 00:37:19,390 --> 00:37:22,270 S1: tuna fish costs $28 at the airport. Now that's that's 776 00:37:22,270 --> 00:37:24,460 S1: so fucking crazy. And you go to the airport and 777 00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:27,670 S1: it's like $22 or whatever, right? Like that's a slightly 778 00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:30,279 S1: different the stakes are different on that one. Is that 779 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:31,239 S1: fair to say? Yeah, I. 780 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:32,740 S3: Think that's fair to say. And I think generally though, 781 00:37:32,739 --> 00:37:34,090 S3: the whole thing has been a really interesting kind of 782 00:37:34,090 --> 00:37:36,580 S3: like flashpoint for comedy. And I feel for Minhaj because 783 00:37:36,580 --> 00:37:38,650 S3: I don't think he deserves to have been like the 784 00:37:38,650 --> 00:37:40,270 S3: face of this. And I really do hope he becomes 785 00:37:40,270 --> 00:37:42,190 S3: the host of The Daily Show. But I thought both 786 00:37:42,190 --> 00:37:45,219 S3: the original story from The New Yorker, while a weird 787 00:37:45,219 --> 00:37:47,950 S3: thing for them to go so hard on, was probably fair. 788 00:37:47,950 --> 00:37:50,859 S3: And then I thought his rebuttal video was like, really 789 00:37:50,860 --> 00:37:52,840 S3: well done. Also. And you know, both sides have had 790 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,430 S3: their say and I hope for the sake of everyone 791 00:37:54,430 --> 00:37:56,380 S3: involved that that's kind of the end of it. And 792 00:37:56,380 --> 00:37:58,480 S3: perhaps like they'll be a bit more understanding on both sides. 793 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,029 S3: But yeah, a weird a weird story for the New 794 00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:04,120 S3: Yorker and an interesting, I guess, conversation around comedy. 795 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:16,930 S1: And what a great summation. Thank you Thomas. You're welcome. Okay. 796 00:38:16,930 --> 00:38:20,440 S1: Onto one four against all odds. 797 00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:21,969 S7: When you see him, in no way. You just see 798 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,780 S7: palm trees, beaches, sand. And we feel like that's the 799 00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:29,859 S7: perspective people have on Australia. So we just thought we'd 800 00:38:29,860 --> 00:38:32,200 S7: show him a different side of Australia and the life 801 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,840 S7: that we're living and what it's like on our side 802 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:35,560 S7: of Australia. 803 00:38:38,510 --> 00:38:41,540 S1: This doco hit Netflix last week, made it to number 804 00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:45,330 S1: two on the streamer's most watched films list in Australia. 805 00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:48,770 S1: It's directed by Gabe Gasparino, and it tells the story 806 00:38:48,770 --> 00:38:51,890 S1: of a rap group from western Sydney called One four 807 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,100 S1: tells their origin story, their rise to fame and why 808 00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:59,090 S1: exactly the New South Wales Police seem determined to stop 809 00:38:59,090 --> 00:39:01,640 S1: them from performing. I'm saying all this like I don't 810 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,650 S1: know the story. I know the story very well. I 811 00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:07,040 S1: covered the police campaign against one for back when I 812 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,640 S1: was at the ABC in 2019. I am actually featured 813 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,520 S1: in this documentary, but that is not the reason we're 814 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,250 S1: talking about it. Thomas talked to me about one four 815 00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:18,500 S1: in this film. Why do you think it's become such 816 00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:20,540 S1: a big deal? It feels like it's being watched by 817 00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:21,740 S1: everyone we know. 818 00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:25,550 S3: Yeah, it really is doing like crazy on Netflix. People 819 00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:29,210 S3: that have never, ever heard of like drill music. Some 820 00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:30,800 S3: of my neighbours who I know have never been to 821 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,410 S3: Western Sydney have watched it. So it seems to be 822 00:39:33,410 --> 00:39:36,290 S3: making waves essentially, I guess to begin with one four 823 00:39:36,290 --> 00:39:38,989 S3: or like a drill rap crew. So drill the type 824 00:39:38,989 --> 00:39:41,989 S3: of rap music that come out of Western Sydney over 825 00:39:41,989 --> 00:39:44,150 S3: the last few years, they've become kind of like this 826 00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:47,870 S3: big name, buzzy act for a few reasons. Firstly, their 827 00:39:47,870 --> 00:39:49,610 S3: music is great, and if you haven't listened to them 828 00:39:49,610 --> 00:39:52,520 S3: like do that, but also they've kind of become this 829 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,160 S3: weird face of a campaign by the police to kind 830 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,920 S3: of shut down music that they believe incites kind of 831 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,380 S3: like gang violence and that type of thing. And essentially 832 00:40:00,380 --> 00:40:02,210 S3: what's happened with one for they came up out of 833 00:40:02,210 --> 00:40:04,820 S3: western Sydney. A few of their members were kind of 834 00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:07,819 S3: famously involved in a fight at Rooty Hill Pub that 835 00:40:07,820 --> 00:40:10,969 S3: did involve some of them being locked up after that, 836 00:40:10,969 --> 00:40:13,210 S3: and as a result of that, then they were, you know, 837 00:40:13,219 --> 00:40:16,310 S3: famously had a national tour that was basically cancelled by 838 00:40:16,310 --> 00:40:18,710 S3: the police in a kind of coordinated campaign that saw 839 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:22,489 S3: shows all around the country shut down, venues pulling out, 840 00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:25,430 S3: and it felt very much like one for were being 841 00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:27,980 S3: locked out of playing and locked out of kind of 842 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:31,160 S3: taking their chance to improve their lives. And that's the 843 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160 S3: story that you covered. Oseman. And that's kind of, I guess, 844 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,660 S3: lent this air of interest and mythology to one for 845 00:40:38,660 --> 00:40:40,520 S3: and kind of led to this narrative where it's like 846 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,910 S3: one four versus the police, which seems really dramatic, but 847 00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:46,490 S3: that's very much what these guys have found themselves in. 848 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,310 S3: They struggle to play shows. They're kind of like constantly 849 00:40:49,310 --> 00:40:52,370 S3: in dialogue with law enforcement where, you know, one four 850 00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:55,790 S3: has become a group that cannot kind of get ahead 851 00:40:55,790 --> 00:40:59,120 S3: despite their reputation building and building. And that's kind of 852 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,540 S3: where the Netflix stock, against all odds, takes us. It 853 00:41:02,540 --> 00:41:04,460 S3: tells the story of one four and how they came 854 00:41:04,460 --> 00:41:07,549 S3: to be, and also how their relationship with police has 855 00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:09,380 S3: basically had them hamstrung. 856 00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:11,270 S2: And, Osman, I think you've played down your role in it. 857 00:41:11,270 --> 00:41:13,549 S2: You were a real highlight for me. I loved everything 858 00:41:13,550 --> 00:41:16,640 S2: you said. Very insightful. I yeah, if you're not watching 859 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,200 S2: it for one fall, you're watching it for Oseman. 860 00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:21,890 S1: Now that's very kind. There's actually a lot of friends 861 00:41:21,890 --> 00:41:23,750 S1: and close people and a lot of people who I 862 00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:26,779 S1: think have been very critical to not just like the 863 00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:29,300 S1: story of one four, but the development of hip hop 864 00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:31,969 S1: and that kind of music in Australia. People like how 865 00:41:31,969 --> 00:41:35,390 S1: people like in scandal, like these are some of the 866 00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:38,540 S1: 24 characters. These are people who, if you don't know 867 00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:42,950 S1: their names, that's fine. But they are very influential into 868 00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:45,290 S1: why when you go onto Spotify and you listen to 869 00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:48,560 S1: the A1 hip hop playlist, for example, it sounds like 870 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,200 S1: the way it does. Like this. This, this documentary is 871 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,810 S1: about one four, but it's also kind of almost a 872 00:41:53,810 --> 00:41:57,110 S1: Trojan horse for a story about like what the current 873 00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:59,989 S1: Australian hip hop music scene is. And I and I think, 874 00:41:59,989 --> 00:42:03,890 S1: like large parts of the mainstream media, have not done 875 00:42:03,890 --> 00:42:07,910 S1: a great job of telling these people's story, these group stories, 876 00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:10,190 S1: because one for like, yeah, as you said, Thomas, they 877 00:42:10,190 --> 00:42:12,770 S1: faced a lot of challenges and their members are in 878 00:42:12,770 --> 00:42:14,600 S1: and out of prison for various issues. And I think 879 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,950 S1: their career has like stalled like up until now. And 880 00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:21,380 S1: I think that's sort of reflected in the documentary, which 881 00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:24,169 S1: ends in 2022. And like there's been a lot that's 882 00:42:24,170 --> 00:42:27,080 S1: happened since then. But, you know, one first hit, a 883 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,570 S1: bit of a plateau, but the scene that they've helped 884 00:42:29,570 --> 00:42:33,230 S1: build has become the dominant sound in Australian hip hop. 885 00:42:33,230 --> 00:42:37,190 S1: There's gritty drill sound that sees a lot of groups, 886 00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:40,550 S1: Pacific Islanders, Pasifika, people who are really dominating the Australian 887 00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:42,830 S1: hip hop scene. So it is a good window into 888 00:42:42,830 --> 00:42:45,140 S1: that as well. Mel, as someone who was maybe I 889 00:42:45,140 --> 00:42:48,229 S1: don't want to presume, but maybe like slightly less into 890 00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:52,160 S1: drill rap, but yeah, Thomas or I, I'm interested in 891 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,950 S1: your view on the doco and the story of one 892 00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:55,730 S1: for more generally. 893 00:42:55,730 --> 00:42:58,520 S2: Yeah, that's definitely true. I don't really listen to to 894 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,819 S2: drill rap often, but obviously Carole King. 895 00:43:02,060 --> 00:43:02,390 S4: Yeah. 896 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,610 S2: Obviously as a culture editor I am across the issues 897 00:43:07,610 --> 00:43:09,900 S2: and obviously across the history of drill rap, particularly, you know, 898 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,580 S2: from the Chicago scene and its influence in London as well. Um, 899 00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:16,190 S2: I mean, I thought. 900 00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:17,000 S1: Good flex there. 901 00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:17,919 S4: Yeah, yeah. 902 00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:23,930 S2: Very engaged. I thought the documentary was pretty surface and 903 00:43:23,930 --> 00:43:27,710 S2: shallow by the insight from our friend Osman here. Like 904 00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:30,110 S2: it almost feels like a trailer. If you hadn't read 905 00:43:30,110 --> 00:43:32,359 S2: anything else about this issue and everyone was just saying 906 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,730 S2: kind of their top lines, whether that be the police 907 00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:38,500 S2: or one for themselves, it just. Very. I don't know, 908 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,089 S2: it didn't feel like I was really seeing anything that 909 00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:42,580 S2: I didn't know and didn't offer me too much of 910 00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:45,669 S2: a behind the scene into the band. And like, you know, 911 00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:50,320 S2: you say their career stalled, but like, it is hard 912 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,380 S2: to get your career going when members are in jail. 913 00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:55,330 S2: And like, some of these issues I felt like weren't 914 00:43:55,330 --> 00:43:57,969 S2: really put to them. Like, I'm obviously not on the 915 00:43:57,969 --> 00:44:00,489 S2: the police side, you know, as a I think they 916 00:44:00,489 --> 00:44:03,400 S2: should be able to perform, perform and make their music. 917 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,469 S2: But I did think some of the issues weren't really 918 00:44:05,469 --> 00:44:07,870 S2: put to them in a thorough way, in the way 919 00:44:07,870 --> 00:44:09,250 S2: they could have been, and I would have just been 920 00:44:09,250 --> 00:44:12,280 S2: interested to hear their answers to some of those questions. 921 00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:14,830 S3: Just for the record, Mills wearing a cop's a tops shirt. 922 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:15,640 S4: So. 923 00:44:17,980 --> 00:44:22,510 S3: Firstly, I just want to say acab and then I guess, no, look, 924 00:44:22,510 --> 00:44:25,810 S3: I'm a big one for fan. I think it's tricky 925 00:44:25,810 --> 00:44:28,239 S3: with these types of documentaries because like when you step 926 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,969 S3: out and you zoom out like whether or not this 927 00:44:30,969 --> 00:44:34,450 S3: was pitched to Netflix by the producing company or vice versa. 928 00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:37,250 S3: But like, this is a massive opportunity for the both 929 00:44:37,250 --> 00:44:40,360 S3: the production company and for one for like globally. And 930 00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:43,509 S3: I guess you have to think about like exactly how 931 00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:45,790 S3: palatable you have to make a documentary like this when 932 00:44:45,790 --> 00:44:47,050 S3: you know it's going to be like part of the 933 00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:49,839 S3: global Netflix machine. So I think as someone who kind 934 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,020 S3: of knew the story pretty well anyway, perhaps I didn't 935 00:44:53,020 --> 00:44:54,609 S3: get as much from it as I would have if 936 00:44:54,610 --> 00:44:55,960 S3: I was going in cold. And like I said, I 937 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,480 S3: literally had this guy who lives in my building come 938 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,250 S3: down and be like, hey man, I watched the Netflix 939 00:45:00,250 --> 00:45:02,890 S3: documentary about one for I saw your friend Osman in it. 940 00:45:02,890 --> 00:45:04,930 S3: Like I knew nothing about this like crazy story, and 941 00:45:04,930 --> 00:45:06,700 S3: he just wanted to talk about it for 20 minutes. 942 00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:08,589 S3: So I guess, like therein lies the impact. Like he 943 00:45:08,590 --> 00:45:10,930 S3: didn't know the story and now he's like so into it. 944 00:45:10,930 --> 00:45:12,430 S3: Every time I see him, he wants to talk about it. 945 00:45:12,430 --> 00:45:14,890 S3: So I think like they had probably an obligation, I guess, 946 00:45:14,890 --> 00:45:17,290 S3: to try and tell the story that I already knew. 947 00:45:17,290 --> 00:45:19,000 S3: So like they have to tell it from the start 948 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,089 S3: and that may be meant for my personal viewing experience. 949 00:45:22,090 --> 00:45:23,650 S3: I was like, okay, well, I know a lot of this, 950 00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:26,710 S3: but yeah, I do think there probably was also an 951 00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:29,620 S3: air of like building into the mythology of one for 952 00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:32,469 S3: and and perhaps leaning into that a little bit. I 953 00:45:32,469 --> 00:45:34,870 S3: think it looks amazing and I'm not surprised it's connecting 954 00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:38,230 S3: with people. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Yeah. I mean I think. 955 00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:40,960 S2: This is a great thing for one for and I 956 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,650 S2: ultimately the police don't come off looking great from this documentary. 957 00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:47,080 S2: And the fact that it's trending number two on the 958 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,080 S2: Netflix charts or it was earlier this week, means that 959 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,239 S2: a whole new audience that never would have heard of 960 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,080 S2: one for other than maybe from the news cycle, are 961 00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:57,460 S2: getting introduced to them. Like, I think this is a 962 00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:59,920 S2: very good, smart thing for them to have done at 963 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:00,790 S2: this time for sure. 964 00:46:00,850 --> 00:46:02,620 S3: Because like I said, they are at a weird stage, like, 965 00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:05,410 S3: I know, like one member has been deported, another member 966 00:46:05,410 --> 00:46:08,380 S3: is currently back behind bars. It's a hard like it's 967 00:46:08,380 --> 00:46:10,060 S3: a period where they're probably not being able to be 968 00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:14,620 S3: very prolific creatively. And, you know, interestingly, the film premiered 969 00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:16,870 S3: at South by Southwest Sydney. Probably the best thing about 970 00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:19,810 S3: the festival, like a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, 971 00:46:19,810 --> 00:46:21,850 S3: it's already been reported. There was like a heavy police 972 00:46:21,850 --> 00:46:24,280 S3: presence there. I think it was perhaps the only event 973 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,280 S3: where they were like metal scanners and dogs and stuff 974 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,250 S3: like that. So like this whole kind of narrative around 975 00:46:30,250 --> 00:46:32,080 S3: one four continues to build. But I guess, like Osman, 976 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,540 S3: for you, obviously you were involved in the production as 977 00:46:34,540 --> 00:46:36,460 S3: a talking head and now you've seen it and you 978 00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:37,990 S3: know the story. You kind of been there from the 979 00:46:37,989 --> 00:46:41,110 S3: very get go, like large portions of your interview with 980 00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:42,970 S3: the guys who were used in the Docker, like, what's 981 00:46:42,969 --> 00:46:43,450 S3: your vibe? 982 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,090 S1: I guess it's hard for all of those reasons to 983 00:46:46,090 --> 00:46:49,540 S1: be like completely objective on the doco. I think knowing 984 00:46:49,540 --> 00:46:52,480 S1: the story really well, I wasn't expecting to sit down 985 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,320 S1: and like, be shocked or surprised by a lot of stuff, 986 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,530 S1: but I've got to say like the amount of times 987 00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:02,169 S1: that the police want to go on camera and just 988 00:47:02,170 --> 00:47:06,880 S1: like admit to using their powers to suppress artistic expression 989 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,009 S1: is quite shocking to me. And I think the fact 990 00:47:09,010 --> 00:47:12,730 S1: that they feel so nonchalant and doing that is like 991 00:47:12,730 --> 00:47:15,730 S1: a real it's like something that needs to be really 992 00:47:15,730 --> 00:47:18,219 S1: interrogated in this, in this country and in the state 993 00:47:18,219 --> 00:47:21,009 S1: of New South Wales in particular. But I did feel 994 00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:25,120 S1: like the fact that the story ends from like it 995 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,940 S1: ends 12 months ago, like there is nothing about the 996 00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:31,600 S1: one full story from the last 12 months in that documentary, 997 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,930 S1: I think is a is a blind spot. Like I 998 00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:36,640 S1: think it's probably deliberate. Like I think there was a 999 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,350 S1: story these guys are trying to tell with the limitations 1000 00:47:38,350 --> 00:47:40,719 S1: that they've got. It is kind of like the beginner's 1001 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,420 S1: guide to one four, as you said, Thomas. So it's 1002 00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:46,930 S1: not necessarily incumbent upon them to have this as up 1003 00:47:46,930 --> 00:47:49,239 S1: to date with everything that's going on and where the 1004 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,070 S1: scene is at right now and like what the next 1005 00:47:51,070 --> 00:47:54,010 S1: thing could be. It's not their job to tell every 1006 00:47:54,010 --> 00:47:57,669 S1: single facet of it, but from my perspective, I would 1007 00:47:57,670 --> 00:48:00,340 S1: have liked to have seen a little bit more of that. 1008 00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:04,720 S1: But I think overall the impact of the documentary is 1009 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,600 S1: going to be nothing but like good. And I don't 1010 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,780 S1: mean just for one for it, obviously great marketing for them, 1011 00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:13,870 S1: but I mean for putting this issue of police suppression 1012 00:48:13,870 --> 00:48:17,650 S1: of music and hip hop on the national and international agenda, 1013 00:48:17,650 --> 00:48:20,410 S1: like I and others have been shouting about this from 1014 00:48:20,410 --> 00:48:23,229 S1: the rooftops, like when this happened in the States to 1015 00:48:23,230 --> 00:48:26,650 S1: NWA 30 years ago, people went to court. You know, 1016 00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:29,859 S1: the First Amendment protections and freedom of speech protect hip 1017 00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:31,870 S1: hop music. They're in a way that they don't. Here 1018 00:48:31,870 --> 00:48:34,930 S1: we are dealing with the same things that America went 1019 00:48:34,930 --> 00:48:39,190 S1: through three decades ago where. Police say that lyrics encourage violence, 1020 00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:41,529 S1: that people from marginalized communities shouldn't be allowed to sing 1021 00:48:41,530 --> 00:48:44,350 S1: about their lives or whatever, and we are not doing 1022 00:48:44,350 --> 00:48:47,050 S1: anything to stop that from happening. There is always a 1023 00:48:47,050 --> 00:48:49,870 S1: big conversation in this country are about freedom of speech 1024 00:48:49,870 --> 00:48:52,660 S1: and like it's being suppressed and the woke mind virus 1025 00:48:52,660 --> 00:48:54,430 S1: means you can't say the N-word as much as it 1026 00:48:54,430 --> 00:48:56,410 S1: used to be able to, and everything's falling apart. But 1027 00:48:56,410 --> 00:49:00,790 S1: when you have state institutions like the police raiding people, 1028 00:49:00,790 --> 00:49:04,510 S1: raiding their houses, raiding their family's houses, interacting with police 1029 00:49:04,510 --> 00:49:07,960 S1: forces around the country and in other countries like New Zealand, 1030 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,200 S1: putting pressure on music venues and saying, if you don't 1031 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,690 S1: pay us hundreds of thousands of dollars in security fees, 1032 00:49:13,690 --> 00:49:16,209 S1: then this show can't go on or your license might 1033 00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:19,180 S1: get cancelled like that. To me, is is far and 1034 00:49:19,180 --> 00:49:22,210 S1: away the far bigger threat to freedom of speech than 1035 00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:23,830 S1: any of this other garbage that we write about in 1036 00:49:23,830 --> 00:49:27,520 S1: the media. So I think if this documentary helps more 1037 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,010 S1: people understand that, and I think this is the unique 1038 00:49:30,010 --> 00:49:32,470 S1: thing that Netflix can do is if it takes that 1039 00:49:32,469 --> 00:49:38,380 S1: story internationally, and maybe you see like big international music 1040 00:49:38,380 --> 00:49:41,950 S1: figures or even fucking civil rights figures, look at what's 1041 00:49:41,950 --> 00:49:44,440 S1: happening in Mount Druitt and say, what the hell is 1042 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,720 S1: going on in Australia? You guys are wack. I think 1043 00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,569 S1: that is a good outcome for like, culture. 1044 00:49:49,870 --> 00:49:51,670 S3: Yeah, 100%. And that is, I think, the power of 1045 00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:53,770 S3: the Netflix machine, like there is a very much a 1046 00:49:53,770 --> 00:49:57,580 S3: real possibility that Ice Cube could watch against all odds 1047 00:49:57,580 --> 00:50:00,069 S3: when he's sitting at home in California and be like, 1048 00:50:00,070 --> 00:50:01,780 S3: oh my God, this feels familiar. I'm going to fucking 1049 00:50:01,780 --> 00:50:04,270 S3: tweet about it. And then like, bang, you've got like 1050 00:50:04,270 --> 00:50:06,660 S3: a huge conversation. I'm now taking control of Ice Cube 1051 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:07,600 S3: social media patterns. 1052 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,190 S4: But yeah, I. 1053 00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:11,560 S3: Agree, and I think that's good, but I do I 1054 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,140 S3: do like I do hope that in this week's Impress 1055 00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:16,720 S3: Your Friends segment, you don't recommend the documentary, because that 1056 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:17,379 S3: would be unfair. 1057 00:50:20,469 --> 00:50:23,380 S1: Yeah. Impress your friends by watching me on Netflix, guys. 1058 00:50:23,380 --> 00:50:28,210 S1: Thanks so much. Now let's go to our Impress Your 1059 00:50:28,210 --> 00:50:32,290 S1: Friends segment where we share our favorite culture recommendations from 1060 00:50:32,290 --> 00:50:35,800 S1: the past week. Thomas, why don't you go first this time? 1061 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,590 S3: Yes, just to keep things steady, I'm going to recommend 1062 00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:40,660 S3: a Netflix documentary about Australia. 1063 00:50:41,410 --> 00:50:43,660 S2: Now this is how you do a documentary. Yes. 1064 00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:45,700 S3: So this one is lost in Larimer. Now, you might 1065 00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:48,700 S3: be familiar with the story from The Australian Podcast about 1066 00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:51,070 S3: the small town of Larimer, but this was actually a 1067 00:50:51,070 --> 00:50:52,750 S3: film that came out last year, and Netflix has kind 1068 00:50:52,750 --> 00:50:55,240 S3: of taken it on board and split it into two episodes. 1069 00:50:55,450 --> 00:50:58,570 S3: It's currently got a 92% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, which 1070 00:50:58,570 --> 00:51:01,870 S3: is very high. So basically it tells the story of 1071 00:51:01,870 --> 00:51:05,830 S3: Patrick Paddy Moriarty, who went missing in the small town 1072 00:51:05,830 --> 00:51:08,500 S3: of Larimer. And when I say small, I mean small literally. 1073 00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:11,380 S3: It's a population of 12 now. 11 because Paddy went 1074 00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:15,730 S3: missing on December 16th, 2017. Essentially, it's a story where 1075 00:51:15,730 --> 00:51:18,730 S3: everyone in this small town is a suspect, but it 1076 00:51:18,730 --> 00:51:20,830 S3: goes deeper than that. It kind of looks at what 1077 00:51:20,830 --> 00:51:23,470 S3: happens when you live in like in this type of isolation. 1078 00:51:23,469 --> 00:51:27,700 S3: There are very small town feuds that feel enormous. It's 1079 00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:30,070 S3: a really interesting story. It kind of breaks down the 1080 00:51:30,070 --> 00:51:32,290 S3: layers of this small town, and it kind of also 1081 00:51:32,290 --> 00:51:34,750 S3: gives you a history of how Larimer came to be, 1082 00:51:34,750 --> 00:51:36,700 S3: you know, a population of 12 people with a single 1083 00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:40,150 S3: pub and a single pie shop. Yeah, it's got incredible 1084 00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:42,340 S3: police evidence. I really enjoyed it. It's two parts. You 1085 00:51:42,340 --> 00:51:45,280 S3: can knock it over in a night. Definitely worth watching 1086 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,720 S3: and then worth telling your friends about. 1087 00:51:46,989 --> 00:51:49,600 S2: It is so funny. The editing in this is just 1088 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,549 S2: it was, you know, I watched this after the one 1089 00:51:51,550 --> 00:51:54,040 S2: for one and this was just a treat. The skill, 1090 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,500 S2: the way it's put together and the story is told 1091 00:51:56,500 --> 00:51:58,660 S2: and they bring it all to kind of contrast and 1092 00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:01,000 S2: juxtapose with each other. Like, I just thought it was 1093 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,380 S2: so good and well done. 1094 00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:04,330 S1: Do you want to talk a bit, Thomas, about like 1095 00:52:04,330 --> 00:52:05,980 S1: the team behind this and where this came out of? 1096 00:52:05,980 --> 00:52:08,589 S1: Because it is one of these things where you, you know, 1097 00:52:08,590 --> 00:52:12,160 S1: there are so many documentaries these days on streamers, on YouTube, 1098 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,670 S1: on wherever. And like, I think something like this and 1099 00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:19,690 S1: something like telemarketers that we've talked about before, which just 1100 00:52:19,690 --> 00:52:22,480 S1: sort of stand out because you can tell a lot 1101 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,500 S1: of thought has gone into the storyboarding, the narrative, the characters. 1102 00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:30,100 S1: And I think something like one four Against All Odds 1103 00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:33,610 S1: feels a bit more like a collage of just like 1104 00:52:33,610 --> 00:52:36,100 S1: a bunch of clips and interviews and sort of stitch 1105 00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:41,230 S1: together where this is like, master Ball, elegant storytelling. Yeah, well, I. 1106 00:52:41,230 --> 00:52:42,610 S3: Mean, it's kind of like the fact that it's made 1107 00:52:42,610 --> 00:52:46,120 S3: by HBO is, I guess, tells you a lot. Like 1108 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,840 S3: they don't tend to attach themselves to projects that are bad, obviously, 1109 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,899 S3: minus the idle. It's also worth mentioning it's strangely, it's 1110 00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:56,350 S3: produced by the Duplass brothers, who, you know, Jay and 1111 00:52:56,350 --> 00:52:58,860 S3: Mark Duplass, both actors. You know, I think it's a 1112 00:52:58,870 --> 00:53:01,209 S3: Jay that's in the morning show. They made the movie, 1113 00:53:01,210 --> 00:53:03,790 S3: the creep series, which is great. So yeah, it's really 1114 00:53:03,790 --> 00:53:06,660 S3: like kind of it is masterfully put together. And, you know, 1115 00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:09,250 S3: we kind of seen a million small town dockers, but 1116 00:53:09,250 --> 00:53:12,129 S3: this one really captures the essence of it. So yeah, 1117 00:53:12,130 --> 00:53:14,530 S3: it's great. So that's the last stop on Netflix. 1118 00:53:14,860 --> 00:53:17,230 S1: Mel what do you go first? 1119 00:53:17,590 --> 00:53:20,739 S2: Look, I feel like I'm being typecast, so I'm bursting 1120 00:53:20,739 --> 00:53:23,620 S2: out of my box this week. And I'm recommending The 1121 00:53:23,620 --> 00:53:27,880 S2: Equalizer three, which I think for you. Oseman as a 1122 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,250 S2: as a sick man at the moment, this could be 1123 00:53:30,250 --> 00:53:33,130 S2: one for you. It's just available to rent now. Will 1124 00:53:33,130 --> 00:53:35,109 S2: you guys across the equalizer series. 1125 00:53:35,110 --> 00:53:36,009 S3: Love the equalizer. 1126 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,200 S1: I've only seen the first one actually, but I really 1127 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:38,609 S1: enjoyed it. 1128 00:53:38,620 --> 00:53:43,030 S2: This is my first introduction to The Equalizer. Robert is 1129 00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:44,150 S2: his name. Well, wait. 1130 00:53:44,170 --> 00:53:46,390 S1: So you went totally cold. You didn't see the first two, 1131 00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:49,150 S1: you just went straight. Your dog has a three. 1132 00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:50,920 S2: Yeah, I thought I'm a I'm a smart cookie. You 1133 00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,109 S2: might be able to pick it up and I didn't. 1134 00:53:53,110 --> 00:53:55,299 S2: There were lots of like because I've since gone back 1135 00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:57,210 S2: and watched one and two, and there's a lot of 1136 00:53:57,219 --> 00:54:00,040 S2: backstory I did not pick up, but you know, now. 1137 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,110 S1: Did you do them in like reverse order? Did you 1138 00:54:02,110 --> 00:54:03,220 S1: go three, two, one? Did you go. 1139 00:54:03,219 --> 00:54:05,410 S2: Three, one three, one, two? And I think it was 1140 00:54:05,410 --> 00:54:08,799 S2: the right order. Three was probably my favorite then. One 1141 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,960 S2: was great to not so great, but a great kind 1142 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,660 S2: of cyclone scenes. The thing I like about all these 1143 00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:16,960 S2: films is like there's some like over-the-top massacre scene at 1144 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,669 S2: the end of each of them. In this one, he's 1145 00:54:18,670 --> 00:54:22,540 S2: in Italy, which I also enjoyed. Dakota Fanning's in it. 1146 00:54:22,540 --> 00:54:25,750 S2: And yeah, there's a beautiful kind of final scene in 1147 00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:29,110 S2: some Italian mansion where a lot of people are killed. Anyway, 1148 00:54:29,110 --> 00:54:31,240 S2: it's a great. Yeah, yeah. 1149 00:54:31,420 --> 00:54:31,870 S4: He said. 1150 00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:33,880 S1: He. But did you did you talk about who's actually 1151 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:34,520 S1: in this movie did I? 1152 00:54:34,630 --> 00:54:36,940 S2: Oh, I apologize, his name is Denzel Washington. 1153 00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:39,380 S4: He's a young up and comer. Good career. 1154 00:54:39,550 --> 00:54:41,830 S2: He's still got it. He plays you know what I 1155 00:54:41,830 --> 00:54:44,110 S2: actually think I connected with. And you guys will enjoy this. 1156 00:54:44,110 --> 00:54:47,140 S2: That he's a reader. He's reading Proust in one of them. 1157 00:54:47,140 --> 00:54:51,100 S2: He's reading Ernest Hemingway. He's working through all these books 1158 00:54:51,100 --> 00:54:54,700 S2: that were on his wife's list when she died. So, yeah, 1159 00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:56,650 S2: I think that's actually, as a reader, I like my 1160 00:54:56,650 --> 00:54:57,940 S2: killers to be readers. 1161 00:54:57,940 --> 00:55:00,250 S3: I love how you were doing it. Recommendations for The 1162 00:55:00,250 --> 00:55:02,350 S3: Equalizer three, and you still managed to talk about books 1163 00:55:02,350 --> 00:55:02,890 S3: in the post. 1164 00:55:02,890 --> 00:55:06,939 S2: Underrated. Anyway, I think it's a really fun action thriller. 1165 00:55:06,940 --> 00:55:09,100 S2: Good for kind of Saturday night if you don't want 1166 00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:10,090 S2: anything too hectic. 1167 00:55:10,090 --> 00:55:12,460 S1: Yeah, or a Wednesday afternoon when you're sick and can't. 1168 00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:14,080 S2: Leave your bed, put it on. What a vibe. 1169 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,100 S1: Awesome. Thanks, Mel. So my one, right? Okay, so we 1170 00:55:18,100 --> 00:55:19,450 S1: all love the beer. We've talked about the beer. The 1171 00:55:19,450 --> 00:55:21,700 S1: three of us love the bear. Everyone else in the 1172 00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:24,100 S1: world loves the bear. Let me tell you about a 1173 00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:27,280 S1: little independent British film from 2021 that I know Thomas 1174 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,910 S1: Mitchell knows about. It's called Boiling Point. If you got 1175 00:55:30,910 --> 00:55:34,419 S1: off on that extraordinary one take episode from the bears 1176 00:55:34,420 --> 00:55:38,380 S1: first season, Boiling point is for you. It's basically that 1177 00:55:38,380 --> 00:55:42,250 S1: spun out into an entire film. It's a one shot 1178 00:55:42,250 --> 00:55:45,490 S1: feature film taking place in real time during service at 1179 00:55:45,489 --> 00:55:48,819 S1: a fine dining restaurant in London. It stars Stephen Graham 1180 00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:51,969 S1: as the head chef, and as you'd expect, things start 1181 00:55:51,969 --> 00:55:55,359 S1: to unravel in this restaurant. It's loud, it's stressful, it's 1182 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,420 S1: anxiety inducing, but it's brilliant. Anyway, that came out two 1183 00:55:58,420 --> 00:56:02,230 S1: years ago this week, a TV series called Boiling Point, 1184 00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:06,250 S1: which is a continuation of the film, just dropped on binge. 1185 00:56:06,250 --> 00:56:09,549 S1: It's produced by the BBC. It has the same creative 1186 00:56:09,550 --> 00:56:13,210 S1: team as the film. Graham's character takes a bit of 1187 00:56:13,210 --> 00:56:15,760 S1: a back seat. The cast is now led by his 1188 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,790 S1: former sous chef, who's played by Vinit Robinson. The whole 1189 00:56:18,790 --> 00:56:22,090 S1: supporting cast is astonishing in this. The show is really, 1190 00:56:22,090 --> 00:56:26,319 S1: really good. It is. If you were attracted by the 1191 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,640 S1: bears kind of questions around food and like life and 1192 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,280 S1: family and stress and work and all that sort of stuff, 1193 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,549 S1: you will like this. It doesn't have that kind of 1194 00:56:36,550 --> 00:56:40,780 S1: wide eyed Ted Lasso element of like, gee, shucks, like 1195 00:56:40,780 --> 00:56:42,250 S1: it's all going to work out, which I knew that 1196 00:56:42,250 --> 00:56:45,549 S1: you didn't love Mel about. The second season of The 1197 00:56:45,550 --> 00:56:49,270 S1: Bear doesn't have that stuff. So it's like much darker 1198 00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:51,430 S1: and much more intense. But I think it works like 1199 00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:54,310 S1: I think it works in this kind of British tone. 1200 00:56:54,310 --> 00:56:56,080 S1: I think everyone should watch it. I think we should 1201 00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:57,250 S1: talk about it more, which. 1202 00:56:57,250 --> 00:56:58,720 S3: I think we will do that next week. 1203 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,969 S2: I cannot wait, and your impersonations have just been on 1204 00:57:00,969 --> 00:57:02,350 S2: point for this episode. 1205 00:57:02,350 --> 00:57:02,750 S4: Oz. 1206 00:57:03,730 --> 00:57:07,630 S1: Thank you guys. Thank you. Well, let's leave it there. 1207 00:57:07,630 --> 00:57:09,219 S1: Let's wrap it up. That was a big episode. I 1208 00:57:09,219 --> 00:57:13,810 S1: think we really we really ran the gamut of topics. 1209 00:57:13,810 --> 00:57:16,890 S3: We shared some emotional truths, none of them actually true. 1210 00:57:18,820 --> 00:57:21,010 S1: Can't wait for this episode to be fact checked by 1211 00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:23,260 S1: the New Yorker, and will be forced to release a YouTube. 1212 00:57:23,260 --> 00:57:24,520 S3: Video as long as they just don't make their way 1213 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,350 S3: to my Sunday column. That would be amazing. 1214 00:57:28,090 --> 00:57:34,450 S1: Thomas. Mel, thank you so much. Thank you. This episode 1215 00:57:34,450 --> 00:57:37,570 S1: of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If you enjoyed 1216 00:57:37,570 --> 00:57:40,360 S1: listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to 1217 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,050 S1: follow us your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review 1218 00:57:44,050 --> 00:57:47,510 S1: or better yet, share it with a friend! I'm Osman Farooqui. 1219 00:57:47,530 --> 00:57:48,520 S1: See you next week.