1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:05,040 S1: Um, I want to go home because my family's there 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,480 S1: and I want to go to school, and I want 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,640 S1: to learn more things. Mhm. I want to be a doctor. 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,760 S2: That was one of the children of the so-called ISIS brides, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,439 S2: a group of 34 women and children who have been 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,760 S2: at the center of a political and media firestorm over 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,760 S2: whether they should be allowed to return home to Australia. 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,600 S3: Why do you want to go back to Australia? 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,640 S1: Because Australia is a beautiful country with very beautiful, kind people. 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,120 S1: And I want to go to shower because I want 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,760 S1: to I want to go to school, I want to learn, 12 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,879 S1: I want to be a chef and I want to 13 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,080 S1: go on Australia's Got Talent. 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,400 S3: What do you want to do on Australia's Got Talent? 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,400 S1: I want to sing and dance. 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,040 S3: I want to say to the Australian people. 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,800 S1: I want to say to them, I want to go home. 18 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,640 S1: I want to live my life. I want to go 19 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,360 S1: home and I want to go to my family. 20 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,370 S2: Their mothers had travelled to Syria when they were younger 21 00:01:00,370 --> 00:01:04,090 S2: and were part of the Islamic State. They married jihadists 22 00:01:04,090 --> 00:01:07,490 S2: who are now dead or in jail. When the so-called 23 00:01:07,490 --> 00:01:11,569 S2: caliphate fell, they were put in detention camps. For seven 24 00:01:11,569 --> 00:01:14,130 S2: years they have lived in no man's land, trying to 25 00:01:14,130 --> 00:01:18,290 S2: return home to Australia. Jamal Rifi is a doctor from Sydney, 26 00:01:18,290 --> 00:01:23,050 S2: at the centre of a controversial mission to repatriate them. Today, 27 00:01:23,090 --> 00:01:26,650 S2: Doctor Rifi speaks to senior writer Michael Bachelard for this 28 00:01:26,650 --> 00:01:29,130 S2: special episode of The Morning Edition. 29 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:33,050 S4: So I'm here with Doctor Jamal Rifi. He's in the 30 00:01:33,050 --> 00:01:35,490 S4: Middle East still. Good morning Jamal. 31 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:37,170 S5: Good morning to you, Michael. 32 00:01:37,610 --> 00:01:41,210 S4: I guess I want to start with asking about your 33 00:01:41,209 --> 00:01:44,690 S4: involvement in this. How did you become involved in this case? 34 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:46,130 S4: You're not a family member. 35 00:01:46,569 --> 00:01:49,810 S5: No, no I'm not. I am not related to any 36 00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:54,170 S5: of the women or children who are in a Roj camp. 37 00:01:54,730 --> 00:01:58,940 S5: My family involvement, I would say that since the start 38 00:01:58,980 --> 00:02:06,020 S5: of the so-called Islamic State. And I saw some of 39 00:02:06,340 --> 00:02:13,500 S5: young people joining them. And I knew that their ideology 40 00:02:14,020 --> 00:02:22,260 S5: is a murderous ideology. They're trying to recruit vulnerable young 41 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:28,660 S5: people or people who really don't know much about the 42 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:33,060 S5: Islamic State. And they were impressed with the way they 43 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:40,340 S5: conducted themselves online. Slick media and nice words, but their 44 00:02:40,340 --> 00:02:44,020 S5: action is totally different from their word. So I stood 45 00:02:44,020 --> 00:02:47,820 S5: up for them. I tried to educate my community about 46 00:02:48,260 --> 00:02:52,500 S5: that so-called Islamic State. It's not what it looks like. 47 00:02:52,540 --> 00:02:55,419 S5: And to prevent them from going this. 48 00:02:55,620 --> 00:02:58,600 S4: And we're talking about maybe 2014 here. 49 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:05,000 S5: 2014 2015. Yes. That's earned me a death threat from them. 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000 S5: Someone put a a bounty for any information about where 51 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000 S5: I live and where my kids go to school and 52 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,200 S5: that sort of things, and followed by a death threat. 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,560 S5: And so I stood up to them. Except in 2019, 54 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,200 S5: with the demise and the fall of the Islamic State 55 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,320 S5: and the people related or being with them being in 56 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,000 S5: a detention camp in northeast Syria, I felt at that 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,680 S5: time the plight of those children. And I did have 58 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:48,000 S5: a dinner with, uh, the then Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, 59 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:54,560 S5: and the immigration minister, David Coleman. And, uh, later on, 60 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,850 S5: they organize a meeting with the then Home Affairs Minister, 61 00:03:59,370 --> 00:04:04,090 S5: Peter Dutton, who I met once in my life in Sydney, 62 00:04:04,530 --> 00:04:09,970 S5: and I pleaded for the kids. And after that, uh, 63 00:04:09,970 --> 00:04:15,130 S5: he gave me the indication. Peter Dutton, that he would 64 00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:20,410 S5: repatriate the orphans, that they were existing in the camp. 65 00:04:20,730 --> 00:04:25,490 S5: And to his credit, a couple of days later took 66 00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:32,570 S5: the orphan from a camp to Erbil. They stayed in 67 00:04:32,570 --> 00:04:37,850 S5: Erbil and they brought them to Australia, and they did 68 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:44,970 S5: quite well. After that, I started receiving calls from the 69 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:50,130 S5: women who are in the camp seeking my medical advice 70 00:04:50,650 --> 00:04:55,539 S5: because I felt they didn't trust the medical service they 71 00:04:55,540 --> 00:05:00,860 S5: were receiving, and I had to deal with issues with 72 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:10,539 S5: recurrent tonsillitis, asthma attack, panic attack, uh, also chilblain and 73 00:05:10,540 --> 00:05:15,500 S5: in the summer, sun strokes and minor illnesses and also 74 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:22,180 S5: some psychological, uh, issues that's happening with the children's at 75 00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:23,820 S5: that time. And that. 76 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:27,500 S4: Happened. You were doing this all over the phone? 77 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:32,620 S5: Yes, all over the phone and mainly with messages, because 78 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:36,380 S5: they're not supposed to have this phone. They can only 79 00:05:36,380 --> 00:05:39,659 S5: turn them on at different times when they feel it 80 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:45,020 S5: is safe, and they will send me messages or recording. And, uh, 81 00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:54,990 S5: in 2022, the current, uh, Labour government. They have reported 82 00:05:55,029 --> 00:06:00,310 S5: they had repatriated a cohort of four women and 13 children. 83 00:06:01,190 --> 00:06:06,910 S5: And we saw that there was some political backlash against 84 00:06:06,910 --> 00:06:11,789 S5: that move because, let's face it, anything to do with 85 00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:17,230 S5: this cult of death that's called ISIS? Uh, it will 86 00:06:18,190 --> 00:06:22,670 S5: it will meet with a lot of dismay and anger 87 00:06:22,670 --> 00:06:27,150 S5: from the larger community and the I felt that the 88 00:06:27,150 --> 00:06:32,710 S5: government was the backlash and that they suffered. They made 89 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:38,789 S5: the decision not to undergo any further repatriation. Uh, in 90 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:43,190 S5: June of last year, uh, we had a meeting in 91 00:06:43,190 --> 00:06:49,190 S5: the office of the current, uh, Home Affairs minister, Tony Burke, 92 00:06:49,589 --> 00:06:54,520 S5: and we pleaded for those Kids, and we were told 93 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:01,080 S5: in no uncertain terms that the government's policy on these, uh, 94 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:09,880 S5: cohort that exists who are 11, 11 women, uh, 23 95 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:18,240 S5: minors and one person who was taken from his mother 96 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,680 S5: at the age of 12 and was put into adult prison. 97 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,720 S5: And we didn't know which prison he was at the time. 98 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,720 S5: So we were talking about 35, uh, in this cohort 99 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,280 S5: and the decision of the government that they're not gonna 100 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:41,400 S5: assist them or plan their repatriation. And they have said 101 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,920 S5: they knew how to get there. They need to find 102 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,600 S5: their way back in. 103 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,640 S4: That's what they they said of the the women and 104 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,170 S4: children that they found their way there. They need to 105 00:07:52,170 --> 00:07:52,970 S4: get back in. 106 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:57,970 S5: Yes. So I myself was a group of professional. We 107 00:07:57,970 --> 00:08:06,810 S5: discuss the situation of people in our camp, and we 108 00:08:06,810 --> 00:08:12,090 S5: were people from the Muslim faith, Christian faith and the 109 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:17,930 S5: Jewish faith. What, mind us, is over humanity. And it's 110 00:08:17,930 --> 00:08:23,210 S5: over belief that Zeus children should not suffer the terrible 111 00:08:23,210 --> 00:08:28,410 S5: consequences of their father's or their mother's decision. And those 112 00:08:28,410 --> 00:08:34,170 S5: children are Australian, and they shouldn't spend any length of time. 113 00:08:34,570 --> 00:08:38,010 S5: And we were convinced that the government did not want 114 00:08:38,010 --> 00:08:43,290 S5: to initiate a repatriation. And we thought that to see 115 00:08:43,290 --> 00:08:44,970 S5: what we can do over self. 116 00:08:46,130 --> 00:08:49,630 S4: I guess it's hard to tell what the overall impression 117 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:52,189 S4: of the Australian public is and you hear different views, 118 00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:55,469 S4: but there are many people, including the government, who are 119 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:59,750 S4: worried that these women are radicalised, that perhaps some of 120 00:08:59,750 --> 00:09:04,510 S4: their children also are becoming radicalised, that they are dangerous, 121 00:09:04,910 --> 00:09:08,630 S4: that we don't want them here. Do you understand that concern? 122 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:16,510 S5: Yes, I do, because every repatriation of such cohort, it 123 00:09:16,510 --> 00:09:25,189 S5: has a security implication. But I've read extensively about repatriation 124 00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:28,750 S5: that has taken place in different parts of the world. 125 00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:36,189 S5: And also I've read about expert people in the field of, uh, 126 00:09:36,350 --> 00:09:44,069 S5: violent extremism, uh, radicalised people and even our own security agencies. 127 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:53,560 S5: They said that Australia is a much safer place if 128 00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:00,520 S5: those children and mothers are brought to Australia where they 129 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:08,560 S5: can be monitored, rehabilitated, rehabilitated, reintegrated into society and deradicalized. 130 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,080 S4: Over the years of treating and dealing with these families, 131 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,040 S4: what's your impression of the children and and the mothers 132 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:16,880 S4: you've dealt with? 133 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:25,079 S5: Definitely. The children's are very vulnerable in that environment, and 134 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,640 S5: they're definitely affected, but they have a passion for coming 135 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,600 S5: to Australia, to their home country. I've seen their drawing 136 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:41,080 S5: that was done in the camp, and I, uh, received 137 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:47,570 S5: messages from them at different, different occasion. They felt for 138 00:10:47,570 --> 00:10:53,250 S5: someone that am not related to them, but am treating 139 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:59,530 S5: them with respect, with compassion, and also with empathy. I 140 00:10:59,570 --> 00:11:05,370 S5: felt the mothers and the children appreciated that contact over 141 00:11:05,370 --> 00:11:09,730 S5: the years. And to be honest, I'm not here to 142 00:11:09,770 --> 00:11:14,810 S5: judge what the woman has done that for the law 143 00:11:14,850 --> 00:11:19,610 S5: agencies and the legal process to take its place. If 144 00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:24,730 S5: they've broken any Australian law, they should go through the 145 00:11:24,730 --> 00:11:28,810 S5: law and receive their punishment. My main interest is the 146 00:11:28,809 --> 00:11:35,209 S5: well-being of young Australian citizens who've been in the camp, 147 00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:38,809 S5: in my opinion, for far too long, and the Australian 148 00:11:38,809 --> 00:11:43,410 S5: government is not willing to accept them into this country 149 00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:47,059 S5: just for Political repercussions. 150 00:11:47,140 --> 00:11:50,500 S4: Can you understand, particularly in the wake of Bondi and 151 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:54,300 S4: the fact that the ISIS flag, you know, was common 152 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,500 S4: to both these people and to the Bondi attack, can 153 00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:02,260 S4: you understand the emotion and the kind of distress around 154 00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:04,059 S4: the idea of these people coming back? 155 00:12:05,860 --> 00:12:11,740 S5: Without any doubt, the terrible event that led to the 156 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:18,300 S5: killing of 15 innocent civilians and to many injured people 157 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:23,260 S5: and even furthermore, traumatized people, and that led to the 158 00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:31,660 S5: fracture in our society and impacted on on everyone, including myself, when? 159 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:39,420 S5: We made that decision. We didn't want to be insensitive, 160 00:12:40,260 --> 00:12:45,190 S5: but then situation in the Middle East was changing and 161 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:49,270 S5: changing rapidly. First of all, to be honest, we were 162 00:12:49,270 --> 00:12:54,070 S5: concerned that there will be a regional war taking place. 163 00:12:54,910 --> 00:13:03,429 S5: USA may hit Iran or Israel may hit Syria. And uh, 164 00:13:04,030 --> 00:13:11,550 S5: the arms of Iran in Lebanon, Syria or Iraq may 165 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:17,790 S5: cause also further that issues in the area. And also 166 00:13:17,830 --> 00:13:24,429 S5: we've heard that the American troop they were planning withdrawal 167 00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:29,990 S5: from northeastern Syria, and we were quite concerned that the 168 00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:35,190 S5: area will become a, you know, war zone. 169 00:13:35,309 --> 00:13:36,830 S4: The area where this camp is. 170 00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:41,710 S5: Where this camp is. Yes. And, and and also we 171 00:13:41,710 --> 00:13:49,320 S5: read in an international uh journals that any camp. The 172 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,000 S5: tension was very high, and the ladies who are there 173 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:01,840 S5: reported to us their fear and increase. Uh. Disruption within 174 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,800 S5: the camp itself. And, uh, the guards would come in 175 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,040 S5: in the middle of the night, ask the kids and 176 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:15,000 S5: the mothers to go outside in the cold weather, and 177 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,400 S5: there will be shivering staying there for a couple of hours, uh, 178 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:25,000 S5: their blanket taken away and their tents are ransacked. And 179 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,120 S5: we also heard of some extortion for money and some 180 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,760 S5: of the kids being taken from her, uh, their mother 181 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,960 S5: and I. Ransom was demanding to the tune of a 182 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,100 S5: couple of thousands of dollars. So the tension was rising. 183 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:45,780 S4: Do you know if that happened to any of the 184 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:46,820 S4: Australian children? 185 00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:51,420 S5: No, it wasn't involved in Australian children, but the children's 186 00:14:51,420 --> 00:14:58,140 S5: were involved in the way of, uh, getting out, uh, 187 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:03,780 S5: from the camp into, uh, from the tent into the 188 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:08,980 S5: outside playground. And their rooms were ransacked and they going 189 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:12,740 S5: through everything. And we heard that some of their, uh, 190 00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:19,300 S5: items were stolen and disappeared, and they were really fearful 191 00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:25,980 S5: of their life. So we felt under these circumstances and, uh, 192 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:32,100 S5: knowing the sentence sensitivity in Australia, but the deteriorating, uh, 193 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:36,460 S5: security situations in the camp that we needed to act 194 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,780 S5: and we needed to act quickly. And we did. Once 195 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:41,910 S5: the passport were available to us. 196 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:46,670 S4: So tell me about that day where the everybody was 197 00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:49,470 S4: gathered together. They were put on three buses. They were 198 00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:52,630 S4: they left the camp. We have some audio from one 199 00:15:52,630 --> 00:15:56,030 S4: of the children describing what it was like. Telling us 200 00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:59,070 S4: what it was like leaving the camp and seeing cows 201 00:15:59,070 --> 00:16:00,990 S4: and donkeys and so forth, and then what it was 202 00:16:00,990 --> 00:16:02,190 S4: like being brought back. 203 00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:04,510 S3: How did you feel when you were leaving the camp? 204 00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:09,030 S1: I felt very happy and excited to meet my family. 205 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:13,030 S1: I saw houses for the first time and trees and 206 00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:19,030 S1: trees and grass and and I was very excited. But 207 00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:22,670 S1: when we had to turn back, I was very upset, 208 00:16:22,670 --> 00:16:27,910 S1: I was heartbreaking, I was crying, I told my mom, 209 00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:30,430 S1: I don't want to go back to the to the prison. 210 00:16:31,190 --> 00:16:33,390 S4: Tell me about that day. 211 00:16:34,750 --> 00:16:39,080 S5: I myself did not make it to the camp. I 212 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:45,720 S5: stayed in Damascus, but we had three Australian citizens, uh, 213 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:55,360 S5: in northeastern Syria. They were negotiating the release of the 214 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,800 S5: women and children with the Syrian Democratic Forces. And, uh, 215 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,520 S5: it took them about a couple of days to convince them. 216 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:14,159 S5: They were demanding some papers, uh, or requests from the 217 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,200 S5: Australian government. And unfortunately, we didn't have any. And we 218 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,840 S5: knew that we're not going to have any. So we 219 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,879 S5: talked to them about it. We showed them a copy 220 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,600 S5: of their passport. And, uh, after a while, uh, they 221 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:37,810 S5: agreed to do that. And they were suppose to, Uh, 222 00:17:38,170 --> 00:17:43,369 S5: take them out on a Monday morning, and they arrived 223 00:17:43,369 --> 00:17:52,170 S5: with their minivans. And to the people surprise, they found 224 00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:58,850 S5: many journalists with their cameras, videos and everything. And that's 225 00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:03,090 S5: where immediately they sent me a message that there is 226 00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:09,090 S5: a scrum of journalists and they are videoing everything. Then 227 00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:13,970 S5: we knew immediately that our mission is doomed for failure 228 00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:21,050 S5: because we did not want at that time for what 229 00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:28,210 S5: we are doing to be publicized. And uh, unfortunately, after 230 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:33,609 S5: they've taken them from the camp, drove about 50km and 231 00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:39,540 S5: there was many discussion and phone calls. Uh, and then 232 00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:44,459 S5: we felt that if we proceed any further, we would 233 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:48,820 S5: have put their life at risk, because we got the 234 00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:53,740 S5: impression that there are some divisions taking place. And we're 235 00:18:53,740 --> 00:18:59,580 S5: not talking about one single entity and the Syrian government. 236 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:05,060 S5: We've been told that, uh, not to ask to the 237 00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:08,700 S5: drivers to ask them to their return because they're not 238 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:13,180 S5: going to let them proceed to Damascus. So they have returned. 239 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:19,419 S5: And unfortunately, uh, later on, it's been described to me, uh, 240 00:19:19,859 --> 00:19:25,700 S5: how traumatic when they had to return them, it was 241 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:31,100 S5: very traumatic because the women, the children and to the 242 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:37,720 S5: three Australian that they were conducting the repatriation and the discussion. 243 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:45,920 S5: At that time, everyone felt deflated, traumatized, but especially the kids. 244 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:54,640 S5: The kids, they were crying and this made the adult cry. 245 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:02,080 S5: And people. Three Australians who were there, what they reported 246 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:10,280 S5: to me was, uh, an utter devastation that involved the 247 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:15,119 S5: whole of, uh, atmosphere in that area. 248 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,040 S4: I heard, uh, overnight that the some of the tents 249 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,560 S4: had been destroyed while they were away. So some of 250 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,439 S4: them didn't even have somewhere to go back to. 251 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,359 S5: That's true. Uh, at the time when they left, the 252 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:36,330 S5: guard started to dismantle the stent by the time they 253 00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:43,450 S5: had to come back. They needed to actually share the 254 00:20:43,450 --> 00:20:49,770 S5: remaining things among themselves. And and they're still sharing the 255 00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:56,810 S5: remaining tents among themselves. Those dismantled tents were not re-erected 256 00:20:57,369 --> 00:21:02,609 S5: because with now what, we know that there was a 257 00:21:02,609 --> 00:21:08,850 S5: decision by the Syrian Democratic Forces that they are going 258 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:15,290 S5: to close, uh, approach camp. And, uh, they didn't give 259 00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:18,890 S5: a time frame, but they said it could be sooner 260 00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:23,810 S5: rather than later. I know that two days ago, there 261 00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:30,770 S5: was a report by the Human Rights Watch, and they 262 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:39,020 S5: talked about people smugglers, profiteers and others. Uh, may be 263 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:45,780 S5: or they put their trade trying to benefit financially from 264 00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:52,020 S5: the misery of those, uh, young children's and women women 265 00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:56,620 S5: that they everyone termed them as ISIS brides, while in 266 00:21:56,619 --> 00:22:01,980 S5: reality they are ISIS widowed rather than brides. 267 00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:08,700 S4: And you have travelled over there with 35 passports, haven't you? 268 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,780 S4: And one is for a young man. Um, tell me 269 00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:13,100 S4: about Yusuf Zahab. 270 00:22:14,740 --> 00:22:21,420 S5: Yusef Zahab was taken by his parents into Syria when 271 00:22:21,420 --> 00:22:25,420 S5: he was 12 years old. He didn't know where he 272 00:22:25,420 --> 00:22:33,830 S5: was going and, uh, didn't know. Anything about Syria itself, 273 00:22:35,670 --> 00:22:41,350 S5: and because of his age, he remained at home, didn't 274 00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:45,590 S5: go outside, didn't know anyone over there spending his time 275 00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:52,230 S5: playing on computer and his gadgets. And at the fall 276 00:22:52,670 --> 00:22:58,830 S5: of the, uh, so-called Islamic State, he was taken with 277 00:22:58,830 --> 00:23:03,950 S5: his mother and siblings in the camp in Aruj. And 278 00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:09,109 S5: later on he spent some time with his mother. Then 279 00:23:09,109 --> 00:23:13,270 S5: later on taken from the camp itself into an adult 280 00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:20,950 S5: prison and I believe a journalist, I think Scandinavian journalist 281 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:31,400 S5: send us message that he knows that Yusuf Was taken 282 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:38,400 S5: by the American troops from Syria into Iraq and totality. 283 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,639 S5: I believe they've taken more than 5000 prisoners. One of 284 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,560 S5: them is Yusuf, unfortunately. 285 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,040 S4: And so now he's a young man, 22, 23 years old, 286 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720 S4: I think, now in in Iraqi prison. Is that right? 287 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,160 S4: As far as you understand. 288 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,800 S5: That's true right now. Yes. 289 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,199 S4: Once the women and children were back in the camp, 290 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,880 S4: you were still in Damascus. You were still trying to 291 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,240 S4: to convince, I guess, the Syrian authorities to let them out. 292 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,320 S4: What happened then? What? There was a lot of rhetoric 293 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,959 S4: at that point from Australia. Did that have an impact? 294 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,560 S5: Definitely. We engaged with the Syrian government and we spoken 295 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,560 S5: to people in the in the government itself in a 296 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:32,730 S5: very senior position. They have told us in no uncertain 297 00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:38,010 S5: terms that they were not happy with the media being 298 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:42,010 S5: present at the time of the extraction of the woman 299 00:24:42,010 --> 00:24:46,290 S5: and the children, and they were not happy with the 300 00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:52,170 S5: rhetoric of the Prime minister in Australia because those are 301 00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:57,930 S5: Australian citizens. It is his responsibility. And if he doesn't 302 00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:02,609 S5: care about them, why should the Syrian government care about them? 303 00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:08,810 S5: They felt that they are concerned if those women and 304 00:25:08,810 --> 00:25:13,369 S5: children are allowed to travel, that they needed to stop 305 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:20,250 S5: for somewhere in the Middle East, and then the second 306 00:25:20,250 --> 00:25:24,330 S5: country may not allow them to proceed to Australia, or 307 00:25:24,369 --> 00:25:29,109 S5: if they proceed to Australia From such a rhetoric that 308 00:25:29,109 --> 00:25:33,270 S5: probably Australia will not receive them, and they wanted a 309 00:25:33,270 --> 00:25:39,310 S5: written assurances that will receive a destination. And this written assurances, 310 00:25:39,310 --> 00:25:42,310 S5: we didn't have access to it. We don't have it. 311 00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:46,630 S5: It was refused before and we know the government is 312 00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:52,630 S5: not going to provide them. So we are not any 313 00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:54,750 S5: better than what we were before. 314 00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:59,990 S4: You describe yourself as a friend of the Home Affairs Minister, 315 00:25:59,990 --> 00:26:04,550 S4: Tony Burke. You helped him at the last election. Have 316 00:26:04,550 --> 00:26:05,670 S4: you asked him for help? 317 00:26:05,910 --> 00:26:12,270 S5: We met three people in his office in June of 318 00:26:12,270 --> 00:26:20,030 S5: last year. We put our case forward to him passionately, 319 00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:24,470 S5: but we were told in no uncertain terms that the 320 00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:31,399 S5: current Labour government will not repatriate and will not provide 321 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:37,000 S5: any assistance, and their position has not changed. After that, 322 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,440 S5: I have not had any discussion about this matter because 323 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,120 S5: I knew we're not going to get anywhere. It was 324 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,760 S5: a government decision and as a minister he will go 325 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,760 S5: by the government's decision. I have not discussed it with him, 326 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,679 S5: but we planned what we want to do. I haven't 327 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,480 S5: told him about it and I haven't spoken to him 328 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,560 S5: for a while. 329 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,720 S4: What do you think of the opposition's proposal that you 330 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,679 S4: are as a helper in somebody who's trying to to 331 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,760 S4: help these people get back to Australia, that you yourself 332 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,440 S4: could be subject to prosecution under a law that they 333 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,160 S4: are proposing. 334 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:26,450 S5: To be honest, when I heard about what the opposition 335 00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:36,650 S5: is proposing. I was perplexed. I believe it is within, uh, 336 00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:46,330 S5: a lawful right for any Australian citizen. Who has a 337 00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:53,290 S5: passport to come in to their country, Australia. It is 338 00:27:53,290 --> 00:27:58,890 S5: a lawful right. If I assist someone who has that right, 339 00:27:59,570 --> 00:28:03,690 S5: and then they are going to take me to court 340 00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:09,650 S5: or imprison me for doing that. It's extraordinary. What it 341 00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:19,929 S5: tells our communities at large when helping vulnerable Australians stuck 342 00:28:19,930 --> 00:28:24,020 S5: in the camp for the last 5 or six years 343 00:28:24,619 --> 00:28:29,060 S5: to escape that camp and come to their home country, 344 00:28:30,340 --> 00:28:36,140 S5: regardless of what their mother or father have done. It 345 00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:45,620 S5: is does not reflect, in my view. Our belief in Australia. 346 00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:50,620 S4: You talk about the children and understandably so. But when 347 00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:53,500 S4: the opposition, when the people who don't want these people 348 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:56,580 S4: to come home, when they speak, they talk about the 349 00:28:56,580 --> 00:29:00,060 S4: mothers and fathers and what they have done, what's your 350 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:03,820 S4: understanding of what they've done? And do you understand people's 351 00:29:03,820 --> 00:29:07,980 S4: fear of bringing people like that back into Australia? 352 00:29:08,260 --> 00:29:12,460 S5: I do understand, and I knew that the repatriation, as 353 00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:22,150 S5: I've said, it, has a security repercussions, but also, I believe, Over. 354 00:29:22,590 --> 00:29:28,270 S5: Security agencies are competent agencies. They will be able to 355 00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:35,590 S5: minimize and annul the dangers. Those children, they need to 356 00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:40,270 S5: be home. And I'm not one to separate them from 357 00:29:40,270 --> 00:29:47,190 S5: their mothers. If those women have broken any laws when 358 00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:50,710 S5: they are in Australia, they have to go through the 359 00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:54,830 S5: court systems. And the Prime Minister said he's going to 360 00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:57,310 S5: throw the books at them, but he need them to 361 00:29:57,350 --> 00:30:01,870 S5: be close for that book to reach its target. If 362 00:30:01,870 --> 00:30:04,790 S5: they stay in Syria, that book is not going to 363 00:30:04,790 --> 00:30:09,630 S5: reach their target or they can. I still believe that 364 00:30:10,030 --> 00:30:18,830 S5: we in Australia, despite the fact that nobody will look 365 00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:24,080 S5: sympathetic to what these mothers or their husbands have done. 366 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,320 S5: They should look compassionate about those kids. Bring them here 367 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,600 S5: and let the legal system deal with them and our 368 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,240 S5: security agency more than competent to keep everyone safe. 369 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840 S4: So what, in your view, should the Prime Minister do now? 370 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,320 S5: I reckon he should listen to what my mother would say, 371 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,200 S5: be compassionate towards those kids, because those kids have done 372 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:58,959 S5: nothing and should not suffer the consequences of the sin 373 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,360 S5: of their fathers or mothers. 374 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,840 S4: He says he's listening to his mother, who says, if 375 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,440 S4: you make your bed, you lie in it. 376 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,280 S5: Those kids did not make any beds. They were actually 377 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,280 S5: sleeping rough. Someone else made the bed for them. They 378 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,960 S5: were forced to lie in it. Not by their own volition, 379 00:31:19,380 --> 00:31:24,660 S5: But by the decision of people who were supposed to 380 00:31:24,660 --> 00:31:28,420 S5: look after them. And they failed to do so in 381 00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:31,140 S5: a very terrible, tragic way. 382 00:31:31,420 --> 00:31:33,060 S4: How can you tell me what you know of the 383 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:36,020 S4: women who have come back already? The two who came 384 00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:42,100 S4: back in 2025, and the four who came back in 2022. 385 00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:46,540 S4: Are they and their children settling into Australian society? 386 00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:50,540 S5: Let me tell you about those who came in in 2019. 387 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:57,260 S5: The orphans. The one that stayed in Sydney. I've had, uh, a. 388 00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:04,340 S5: Information that they've done very well at school. They've done 389 00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:08,860 S5: very well at home. And one of them is a poet, 390 00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:14,260 S5: and she's been writing very nice poems. I had the 391 00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:18,709 S5: lucky situation to read one of her poems, and I 392 00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:25,709 S5: was very much impressed. Those women that they came in afterwards, uh, 393 00:32:25,710 --> 00:32:32,630 S5: they had a transition, uh, initially, but they sorted themselves out. 394 00:32:32,990 --> 00:32:37,910 S5: They're doing very well. And, uh, they're looking after their kids, 395 00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:41,870 S5: and they're doing the odd jobs from time to time. 396 00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:47,630 S5: And they had no issues with authorities whatsoever. None whatsoever. 397 00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:50,990 S4: Doctor Jamal Rifi, thank you very much for joining us today. 398 00:32:52,110 --> 00:32:52,990 S5: Thank you Michael. 399 00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:59,510 S2: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 400 00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:03,110 S2: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 401 00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:07,070 S2: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 402 00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:09,390 S2: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 403 00:33:09,390 --> 00:33:12,230 S2: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.