Speaker 1: Historical child abuse is any type of abuse that occurred
Speaker 1: in the past, but typically relates to abuse during a
Speaker 1: person's childhood or adolescent. It's got long lasting negative effects
Speaker 1: on their emotional, psychological, and physical wellbeing. Abuse can take
Speaker 1: a variety of forms, including sexual, emotional, and physical abuse,
Speaker 1: as well as neglect. On the line to discuss this
Speaker 1: important topic is Peter Karp, who's a lawyer dealing with
Speaker 1: survivor victims of historical child abuse.
Speaker 2: Hi, Peter, Oh, good evening, Reverend Bill, how are you
Speaker 2: good mate? Now?
Speaker 1: How did you come get involved in this?
Speaker 2: Well? A number of decades ago. Now, I did specialize
Speaker 2: in the area of duty of care. And a friend
Speaker 2: of mine, who did trade union work for trade unions
Speaker 2: ringing me up and said he had this lady in
Speaker 2: his prayer group whose son was abused by a religious
Speaker 2: leader and could I help because he'd already fathers statement
Speaker 2: of claiming the Supreme Court, which became the first one
Speaker 2: ever in New South Wales. And I thought, well, I
Speaker 2: better come and help him. And as I did that,
Speaker 2: I realized this is a good area to be in
Speaker 2: because being a Christian of Jesus follower, I believe in
Speaker 2: doing good to change the dad, you see, and I
Speaker 2: could see there was a lot of room for improvement
Speaker 2: in the legal process for survivor victims of historical.
Speaker 1: Abuse, because for survivors and victims, often it takes years
Speaker 1: before it comes out, isn't it.
Speaker 2: That's right? Sometimes decades. We have people ranging from teenagers
Speaker 2: up to people in their eighties who were all abused
Speaker 2: as children, and for lots of reasons. But yes, it
Speaker 2: does sometimes takes a long time.
Speaker 1: And what are some of the major effects that they exhibit.
Speaker 2: Well, the main one these days is called post traumatic
Speaker 2: stress disorder, and one of my clients is a psychologist
Speaker 2: described it herself as saying, it's like I've got a
Speaker 2: grenade inside me and it can go off at any time,
Speaker 2: triggered by something I see on TV or something someone says,
Speaker 2: or a memory that comes to me. Also depression, anxiety,
Speaker 2: low self worth, their education suffers, their workplace suffers, their
Speaker 2: family suffer, and unfortunately sometimes they're going too self harm
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: So what are the barriers to them finding recovery?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think the main barrier is the shame.
Speaker 2: It's like the little child inside them has closed themselves up,
Speaker 2: feeling shame, even though it's not their fault at all,
Speaker 2: and then unfortunately they resort to other methods to help themselves,
Speaker 2: such as alcohol and drugs to self medicate the effects,
Speaker 2: and they just find it difficult to share with other people.
Speaker 1: Built and what are some of the pathways to healing
Speaker 1: for survivors that are healthy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, very good question. The good things for survivors is
Speaker 2: counseling if they can. Sometimes they can't because they find
Speaker 2: it difficult to open up psychologists, medical health, you know,
Speaker 2: drug and alcohol help. And then support groups such as
Speaker 2: one in we have here in New South Walest called
Speaker 2: Samson Survivors and Made Support that We're a wonderful organization
Speaker 2: where they can get together in a support group with
Speaker 2: other people who've been through similar things and just share
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: Now, how effective MATE is the National Redress scheme, you know,
Speaker 1: because it's supposed to be there to give pursue justice.
Speaker 2: Look, it is effective, it definitely is, But it's limited.
Speaker 2: It's limited because it only deals with sexual abuse, not
Speaker 2: physical abuse, and the levels of compensation that are provided
Speaker 2: are also limited maximum one hundred and fifty thousand, and
Speaker 2: for some the maximum if it's only touching abuses ten thousand,
Speaker 2: and he's forty thousand and exposure abuse ten thousand. So
Speaker 2: it's certainly got its benefits, particularly where it's the proof
Speaker 2: to prove the case would be difficult in a civil court.
Speaker 1: Now, there have been two court decisions recently, one in
Speaker 1: the High Court and one in the Court of Appeal
Speaker 1: that have really been a setback of justice for victims.
Speaker 2: They have. One is called Bishop Bird against the a DP,
Speaker 2: which is a pseudonym in the other one is called
Speaker 2: AA versus the trustees of the Maitland Diocese. Now they're
Speaker 2: both Catholic Church matters, but this doesn't just affect Catholic Church.
Speaker 2: It affects any organization, any institution that is dealing with children.
Speaker 2: And what those decisions are saying is that they will
Speaker 2: not extend the vicarious liability of the employer or the
Speaker 2: organization to someone who is not technically an employee. So
Speaker 2: it means a priest of the Catholic Church in Bird
Speaker 2: and also AA. In those two decisions of the High
Speaker 2: Court and the Court of Appeal, they were not allowed
Speaker 2: to proceed with their case because technically a priest is
Speaker 2: not an employee according to those cases. So this is Really,
Speaker 2: the crux of the matter at the moment is we've
Speaker 2: had left us. The High courts left us with two
Speaker 2: classes of citizens. One a child who is abused and
Speaker 2: grown up can get recompense under this doctrine of vicarious
Speaker 2: liability if the person is an employee an Anglican minister,
Speaker 2: is a scripture teacher employed by the school. Is but
Speaker 2: a priest isn't. A volunteer, isn't a youth leader, isn't
Speaker 2: a scout leader, isn't as coach of a rugby team,
Speaker 2: isn't because they're not employees. And what the law was
Speaker 2: developing to the point where the survivors could get compensation
Speaker 2: in those areas, but the High Court closed it off.
Speaker 1: Now I gather this remedial legislation being put for the
Speaker 1: Act Parliament this month and other places too. How confident
Speaker 1: are you of a favorable outcome from these measures?
Speaker 2: Well, we need public support for those. Jeremy Buckingham in
Speaker 2: New South Wales of the Legalized Marijuana Party, his coort
Speaker 2: in Victoria has done the same there and the Greens
Speaker 2: have put forward remedial legislation in the Act. So we
Speaker 2: just want support from the big parties to do the
Speaker 2: right thing by the survivors, as happened in the Royal Commission,
Speaker 2: as was enunciated by Julia Gillard, who herself came out
Speaker 2: and said how bad the High Court decision was a
Speaker 2: few days after. So we just need that public support
Speaker 2: and support in the major parties to say, hey, fix
Speaker 2: this so that our children will be safe.
Speaker 1: Now do you think have you had any support from
Speaker 1: the Parliament so far outside of those people.
Speaker 2: Yes, we have had parliamentarians indicate that they're supportive. But
Speaker 2: currently the New South Wales Attorney General is sitting on
Speaker 2: the fence and that hopefully that will change with public support.
Speaker 1: So what sort of legislation would you like to see?
Speaker 2: All we'd like to see is the legislation to become retrospective.
Speaker 2: The moment, there is legislation saying that people are kin
Speaker 2: to an employee who are like a scout leader type
Speaker 2: person or a coach of a team, who are who
Speaker 2: are looking after kids all the time. Legislation said has
Speaker 2: been put in into October twenty eighteen in New South
Speaker 2: Wales and other states saying that yeah, that should be
Speaker 2: something that the law extends to, but only prospectively built.
Speaker 2: So it means no one's going to avail themselves of
Speaker 2: that law until thirty or forty years time, so absolutely
Speaker 2: useless at the moment. All we have to do is
Speaker 2: make it retrospective.
Speaker 1: Now, there's bound to be someone listening tonight who's the
Speaker 1: survivor victim of historical child abuse. Where can they reach
Speaker 1: out for help?
Speaker 2: Okay? So the easiest way for such a person who's listening,
Speaker 2: and that person you're wondering what do I do? You
Speaker 2: can pick up the phone and ring up an organization
Speaker 2: called No More starts with a K, not an end
Speaker 2: k nowmire and they're on one eight hundred six five
Speaker 2: seventy six two one eight hundred six oh five seventy
Speaker 2: sixty two. They're an independent government organization to advise people
Speaker 2: who are who are survivors of historical abuse and they
Speaker 2: were set up by the Royal Commission by the government.
Speaker 2: They're funded by the government to make sure that every
Speaker 2: person has access to justice.
Speaker 1: Peter, as a lawyer, how often does someone come to
Speaker 1: you with this sort of situation?
Speaker 2: People in this situation every day, it's a daily thing.
Speaker 2: And sometimes, as I said, there's still even a teenager,
Speaker 2: others in their twenties thirties, forty fifties, all sorts of
Speaker 2: people who finally have decided to come out. Unfortunately we're
Speaker 2: seeing too much of it. But the main thing is
Speaker 2: we need to fix the law so that the institutions
Speaker 2: will be looking over their shold the saying, hey, if
Speaker 2: we don't look after these children properly, they might come
Speaker 2: and sue us. We've got to make sure they have
Speaker 2: that incentive to put protective measures in place for our
Speaker 2: children so that in the future there'll be less people
Speaker 2: ringing up lawyers like me.
Speaker 1: Peter, Peter, keep you, keep your powder going, keep going.
Speaker 1: See them. God bless you mate. Thank you. Peter carp,
Speaker 1: a lawyer who deals with survived victims of historical child abuse,
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for talking to us tonight. And more
Speaker 1: strength to your mate, more.
Speaker 2: Strength, Thanks for everyone. Bill, want you too.
Speaker 1: God bless thank you.