1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,640 S1: Hi, I'm Odessa Blayne, executive producer of the F.w. Leadership series. Podcast. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,000 S1: This season, we're doing something a little different. Putting your 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,600 S1: leadership questions to Helen. At the end of each episode, 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,320 S1: it's a chance to ask Helen what's on your mind, 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,040 S1: your workplace dilemmas, conundrums, or pet hates? We love voice notes, 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,320 S1: or you can send us your written questions at women.com. 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,440 S1: We'll put the link in the show notes. Enjoy the show. 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,560 S2: Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of F.W.. 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,440 S2: I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,080 S2: edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018, I launched my 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,480 S2: own business. F.W. is dedicated to helping women navigate their 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,159 S2: working lives. But I've made my share of mistakes, especially 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,320 S2: as a leader. In this series, I go in search 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,120 S2: of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore the 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,880 S2: latest thinking on how to be a great leader and 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,319 S2: return to the tried and true methods to better understand 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:11,320 S2: what works and in what situations. I'm excited to introduce 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,479 S2: the first guest of this new season. Michael De'ath started 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,960 S2: his career as a teacher and went on to become 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,679 S2: one of the country's most accomplished public servants. His last 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,840 S2: role was as the Director General of Queensland's Department of Education. 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,919 S2: Today he runs a leadership advisory and executive coaching business. 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,280 S2: Listening to this episode, you'll get a sense of why 24 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,520 S2: his expertise is so highly sought after. In it, we 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,640 S2: talk about courage, executive presence and why people think about 26 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:50,680 S2: succession planning. All wrong. Michael, welcome to the Leadership Series podcast. 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,240 S2: There's quite a bit I want to get through with 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,160 S2: you today, but I thought a good place to start. 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,630 S2: Given that you've had a long career in the public service. 30 00:01:59,030 --> 00:02:03,870 S2: You've been in consultancy. You're backing consultancy is perhaps. Tell 31 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:07,630 S2: us a little bit about how you first came to leadership, 32 00:02:07,670 --> 00:02:09,750 S2: and when was sort of like the first time that 33 00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:13,669 S2: you realized that actually you are a leader. 34 00:02:14,150 --> 00:02:16,590 S3: Yeah, it goes a long way back, Helen. I think 35 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:19,110 S3: when I was sort of my upper primary school years, 36 00:02:19,110 --> 00:02:21,510 S3: and one of the units you do is, uh, you know, 37 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:27,030 S3: a mock disaster. And, um, I was a disaster controller, and, um, 38 00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:30,510 S3: I sort of wonder sometimes what's what's changed. Um, and 39 00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:33,430 S3: but really, I think, you know, when you go into 40 00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:36,310 S3: a teaching career, I always say, whether you teach forever 41 00:02:36,310 --> 00:02:40,190 S3: or not, teacher training is good. Um, and I was 42 00:02:40,190 --> 00:02:43,510 S3: really fortunate to work with some terrific people who really 43 00:02:43,510 --> 00:02:47,549 S3: guided me. And I went into, you know, leadership and 44 00:02:47,550 --> 00:02:52,430 S3: management work very young, made lots of mistakes, studied hard, 45 00:02:52,430 --> 00:02:54,709 S3: studied for 20 years, actually while I was working full 46 00:02:54,750 --> 00:03:00,149 S3: time and a lot of that study around psychology, organizational psychology, 47 00:03:00,150 --> 00:03:04,190 S3: leadership and the discipline. Yeah. And so that's really sort 48 00:03:04,190 --> 00:03:05,590 S3: of how I landed into it. 49 00:03:05,590 --> 00:03:10,470 S2: So it's interesting because you were obviously added the natural 50 00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:12,710 S2: elements or the natural qualities of a leader from as 51 00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:16,950 S2: a kid. And you went with that into teaching, but 52 00:03:16,950 --> 00:03:18,669 S2: you're quick to say there that you made a lot 53 00:03:18,669 --> 00:03:21,190 S2: of mistakes. And I'm always a bit intrigued by the 54 00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:24,350 S2: person who is the natural leader and gets the job 55 00:03:24,350 --> 00:03:27,790 S2: and then makes a mess of it, because it's a 56 00:03:27,790 --> 00:03:33,510 S2: pretty common path. Do you recognize yourself in that description? 57 00:03:34,230 --> 00:03:36,870 S3: Oh, look, I think we we all as leaders, look 58 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:38,550 S3: back on things and go, gee, I could have done 59 00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:40,670 S3: that better. And if and if we don't do that, 60 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:42,990 S3: if we're not reflective like that or what sort of 61 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:45,350 S3: leaders really are we? Because I think that's how you 62 00:03:45,350 --> 00:03:49,510 S3: get better. It's it's observing people and observing them deeply, 63 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:52,030 S3: not just going, gosh, I really admire that person. It's 64 00:03:52,030 --> 00:03:54,190 S3: part of the work I do in my coaching work is, yeah, 65 00:03:54,190 --> 00:03:57,660 S3: you might like that person. Admire them. But why? What 66 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:00,860 S3: are the characteristics that you really noticing and how might 67 00:04:00,860 --> 00:04:04,780 S3: you modify your behavior? You know, as a result of 68 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:08,700 S3: what you're observing and then practice that. So I think 69 00:04:08,780 --> 00:04:12,780 S3: leadership is developed over time and it is a practice, um, 70 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:14,500 S3: and a really reflective practice. 71 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:19,180 S2: Tell me we're in 2026. Leadership has had gone through 72 00:04:19,180 --> 00:04:22,700 S2: lots of different fads of, you know, words and buzz 73 00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:27,140 S2: phrases and styles of leadership. What are you seeing now 74 00:04:27,140 --> 00:04:30,900 S2: and what do you regard as a good leader in 2026? 75 00:04:31,339 --> 00:04:34,339 S3: I have a I have a picture, um, that hangs 76 00:04:34,540 --> 00:04:36,420 S3: on the wall. It's hang on the wall in my, 77 00:04:36,580 --> 00:04:40,539 S3: my offices for for many years. And it's the picture 78 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:44,500 S3: of the reenactment of Rosa Parks on the the bus 79 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:49,140 S3: in Montgomery, Alabama. And there's a reason why I have 80 00:04:49,140 --> 00:04:50,859 S3: that picture, because it's something that I think that hasn't 81 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:54,339 S3: changed about leadership. And leadership is about courage. And if 82 00:04:54,339 --> 00:04:57,060 S3: you think about what it was like for Rosa Parks 83 00:04:57,060 --> 00:05:02,339 S3: on that day to to take a stand. Hold the line. 84 00:05:02,779 --> 00:05:06,859 S3: Something that was fundamentally important to her and the civil 85 00:05:06,860 --> 00:05:09,660 S3: rights movement. And to say, well, this is wrong and 86 00:05:09,660 --> 00:05:11,580 S3: I'm not going to do this today. And one of 87 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:13,860 S3: the reasons why I love that photo, and I look 88 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:17,179 S3: at it, is because it reminds me when I'm having 89 00:05:17,180 --> 00:05:20,060 S3: a hard day on courage, it can be nothing like 90 00:05:20,060 --> 00:05:22,460 S3: what it was like for her that day. So I 91 00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:25,740 S3: think one of the constants is, is courage. Um, there's 92 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:28,100 S3: lots of things, you know, you're there to do something. 93 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:29,419 S3: So if you're going to do something, you've got to 94 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:31,820 S3: have the courage and the conviction to do it. And 95 00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:36,020 S3: I know those people who I've encountered throughout my career 96 00:05:36,020 --> 00:05:39,260 S3: who are a bit. Yes, Minister. And I just don't 97 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:41,220 S3: think that's what we're there to do. You know, we're 98 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:43,340 S3: there to actually really stand for something. 99 00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:46,020 S2: Michael, I want to talk a bit more then about 100 00:05:46,020 --> 00:05:51,700 S2: the challenges of demonstrating courage in contemporary organizations. If you're 101 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:55,729 S2: an an organization that really doesn't want courage. It just 102 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:59,130 S2: wants you to do your job, do it well, and 103 00:05:59,130 --> 00:06:01,809 S2: not rock the boat. What do you say to anyone 104 00:06:01,810 --> 00:06:04,770 S2: listening that is in one of those organizations? And it 105 00:06:04,770 --> 00:06:06,969 S2: can be in the public or private sector today. 106 00:06:07,210 --> 00:06:09,210 S3: You know how long we talked about, you know, mistakes 107 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:12,729 S3: along the way. And, um, in line with what you're 108 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,210 S3: asking about here. I mean, one of the mistakes I 109 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:16,810 S3: made at a point in my career was I stayed 110 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:21,010 S3: somewhere too long where the leadership was absolutely not conducive 111 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:24,650 S3: towards how I think and how I think we should progress. 112 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:28,810 S3: And and certainly was not encouraging of anyone to put 113 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:34,530 S3: their head up too high, completely risk averse. And, you know, 114 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:37,370 S3: when I'm working with people who are thinking about their 115 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:41,330 S3: next career move, I really encourage them, like, you recognize this, 116 00:06:41,529 --> 00:06:44,410 S3: and then there could be a 12 month runway, if 117 00:06:44,450 --> 00:06:47,050 S3: you're lucky, before you need to go. And so you 118 00:06:47,050 --> 00:06:50,010 S3: have to start work on it early. And you actually 119 00:06:50,010 --> 00:06:52,849 S3: need to think about how you can be at your 120 00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:56,330 S3: optimal performance, and if the environment is not conducive to that, 121 00:06:56,330 --> 00:06:57,570 S3: then you shouldn't stay. 122 00:06:57,890 --> 00:07:00,650 S2: All right. That's a good that's a good advice. But 123 00:07:00,650 --> 00:07:05,650 S2: okay I'm working in a big organization and I I'm 124 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:08,330 S2: unclear what you mean by correct. Like when you say 125 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:11,210 S2: I want to see courage in your leadership of a 126 00:07:11,210 --> 00:07:14,450 S2: team in a big organization, what does that actually mean? 127 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:15,170 S2: Do you think. 128 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:18,530 S3: So? If you observe people and you observe people deeply, 129 00:07:18,530 --> 00:07:22,250 S3: the people you admire, you'll see how they do that. 130 00:07:22,250 --> 00:07:28,210 S3: They're often patient. They work quietly away at influencing. They 131 00:07:28,730 --> 00:07:33,090 S3: pick their moments. They have very good judgment, very good judgment. 132 00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:35,370 S3: And I know that's hard to work with people on. 133 00:07:35,370 --> 00:07:38,890 S3: But if you you know, if you're working with people 134 00:07:38,890 --> 00:07:41,290 S3: about how do you conduct yourself in a meeting, how 135 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:43,130 S3: do you conduct yourself in a meeting? If it's with 136 00:07:43,130 --> 00:07:46,130 S3: superiors as opposed to the team you're leading? Like, what 137 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:48,850 S3: are you trying to achieve? What are your objectives? What's 138 00:07:48,850 --> 00:07:52,880 S3: your demeanor. What's your executive presence? What is executive presence 139 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,360 S3: anyway and what does it look like? And um, of course, 140 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,040 S3: something that's hugely contextual. So I think there's there's a 141 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,240 S3: real science around leadership and, and that that notion of 142 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,680 S3: courage and demonstrating it and how it plays out. And 143 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 S3: and if you don't think about it deeply or even 144 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,800 S3: if you're not, like, trained in it and you're just 145 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,800 S3: sort of flying by the seat of your pants, then 146 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,840 S3: it probably will unravel on you. Uh, I think when 147 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,920 S3: I look at, you know, so many leaders that are 148 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:26,080 S3: really successful now, like it's it's like talented musicians, you know, 149 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,360 S3: they didn't just pick up a guitar, bang out a song, 150 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,360 S3: and now they're famous. You know, it all happened through 151 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,800 S3: a lot of hard work generally, and really thinking deeply 152 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,839 S3: about it and tweaking it and playing around the edges 153 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,840 S3: and trying different things. So yeah, I think courage is 154 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,560 S3: something to be managed carefully, um, and to be understood 155 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,000 S3: in the context you're working within and what you want 156 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,800 S3: to achieve and how you want to influence. 157 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,280 S2: So I feel like that was a bit of a 158 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,640 S2: trick question in some ways, because you're an expert servant, right? 159 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,319 S2: So your version of courage is going to be considered 160 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:00,040 S2: and thoughtful and moment by moment. But what about the 161 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,520 S2: courage that you see in a leader that says what 162 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,160 S2: will be unpopular says. Um, we're seeing a lot of 163 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,880 S2: courage in both a negative and a positive sense at 164 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,000 S2: the moment in Canberra, where people are saying things that 165 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,200 S2: couldn't have been said before, that are offensive to some 166 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,120 S2: people and important to others. How do you manage and 167 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,599 S2: what's your view of that kind of courage? 168 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,280 S3: Well, politicians, if you look at just that sphere, are 169 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,200 S3: motivated by a range of interesting factors, and certainly from 170 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,360 S3: a senior public servant perspective, you have to really, um, 171 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,679 S3: have some attempt to understand what that world is that 172 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,000 S3: they're trying to operate in and how they're trying to 173 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,110 S3: obtain something that is often quite morally good and right, 174 00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:50,550 S3: but it's very incremental when it has trade offs all 175 00:09:50,550 --> 00:09:52,990 S3: over the place. Um, so I think, you know, when 176 00:09:52,990 --> 00:09:54,510 S3: you're working for those people, you have to have some 177 00:09:54,510 --> 00:09:58,830 S3: understanding of that. But I think, um, that at the 178 00:09:58,830 --> 00:10:01,310 S3: end of the day, if you've got some conviction, if 179 00:10:01,309 --> 00:10:04,710 S3: you believe strongly in something and you've got a good 180 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:07,630 S3: argument around that, it's not just something that you're flying 181 00:10:07,630 --> 00:10:10,110 S3: off the top of your head, then you should stand 182 00:10:10,110 --> 00:10:13,670 S3: up and you should be counted. This is a democracy. And, 183 00:10:13,710 --> 00:10:15,870 S3: you know, some people are going to like that idea 184 00:10:15,870 --> 00:10:18,750 S3: or that stance, and some people aren't. But what are 185 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:20,590 S3: you really there for if you're not, if you don't 186 00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:21,430 S3: stand for something? 187 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:25,189 S2: And I guess you're thinking around the importance of courage 188 00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:27,310 S2: as a as a core, if not the core. Leadership 189 00:10:27,309 --> 00:10:31,390 S2: skills is as much about what the people that are 190 00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:34,790 S2: under you feel in terms of the following. Someone who's 191 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:38,630 S2: prepared to put their neck out, um, take a stand, 192 00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:43,590 S2: go against common, uh, public opinion or go against public opinion. 193 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:46,270 S2: Can you talk to me? Talk a little bit about 194 00:10:46,270 --> 00:10:48,910 S2: how courage flows through an organization. 195 00:10:48,950 --> 00:10:53,949 S3: Yeah, because it's not just about public opinion. Like deeply in, um, 196 00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:57,310 S3: within your organization. So if you think of, you know, 197 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:00,150 S3: a role I recently left as director general of education 198 00:11:00,150 --> 00:11:02,950 S3: in Queensland, you know, that that is a direct employer 199 00:11:02,950 --> 00:11:06,150 S3: of nearly 100,000 people. So what you do as the 200 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:09,630 S3: leader permeates that organisation, whether you like it or not, 201 00:11:09,630 --> 00:11:11,910 S3: and you should be deeply aware of that. And so 202 00:11:11,950 --> 00:11:15,870 S3: there were, you know, there were things in senior leadership 203 00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:19,110 S3: that I didn't tolerate and would never tolerate. And those 204 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:23,630 S3: people don't remain. And there are things like discrimination, you know, misogyny, 205 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:28,630 S3: poor behaviour towards others. You know, those things just deeply 206 00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:32,910 S3: into organisations. And so that's on the sort of the 207 00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:35,710 S3: people leadership side. And then then you're there to bring 208 00:11:35,710 --> 00:11:38,670 S3: some strategy to the place and some plan. What is 209 00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:43,990 S3: the plan? And I found myself working in organisations where 210 00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:46,270 S3: I think there was a lack of direction, that it's 211 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:48,790 S3: really important that a leader works with others to to 212 00:11:48,830 --> 00:11:51,230 S3: bring some direction, to bring some clarity, to bring some 213 00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:55,550 S3: coherence to the place. Um, so the people have a purpose. 214 00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:57,750 S3: Otherwise people are just running around trying to work it 215 00:11:57,750 --> 00:12:00,190 S3: out and and, you know, make it up. I worked 216 00:12:00,190 --> 00:12:03,190 S3: for a secretary for education in New Zealand called Howard Fancy. And, 217 00:12:03,230 --> 00:12:06,190 S3: you know, Howard was an economist. I found him quite boring. 218 00:12:06,190 --> 00:12:08,470 S3: I deeply respected him, but I found him quite boring. 219 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:10,150 S3: And then one day I sort of thought about, why 220 00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:13,189 S3: is it that I just find Howard so incredibly boring? 221 00:12:13,390 --> 00:12:15,910 S3: And it was because, uh. And he served for a 222 00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:19,429 S3: long time. He always said the same thing. And the 223 00:12:19,429 --> 00:12:22,470 S3: interesting thing about that was that in that organization, we 224 00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:25,190 S3: were all clear about what the organization was about, love 225 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:28,350 S3: it or hate it, that Howard was speaking at. And 226 00:12:28,350 --> 00:12:30,350 S3: he said over and over and over again, and I 227 00:12:30,350 --> 00:12:31,950 S3: learned something from that, is that sometimes you have to 228 00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:34,110 S3: be boring, you know, like you have to you have 229 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:37,510 S3: to actually be really consistent about the message and give 230 00:12:37,510 --> 00:12:39,950 S3: people that security that we are going somewhere. This is 231 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:42,270 S3: what it is. And let's just remember that all the time. 232 00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:45,460 S2: I think that's such great advice. Um, and I think it's, 233 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,100 S2: you know, a really good advice to anyone leading, uh, 234 00:12:48,140 --> 00:12:50,420 S2: a new business because it's, you've got you can be 235 00:12:50,420 --> 00:12:52,540 S2: knocked around all the time by a new idea and 236 00:12:52,540 --> 00:13:07,300 S2: a new opportunity, and that can be extremely confusing. I 237 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:09,300 S2: want to talk a little bit more about the work 238 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,260 S2: you're now doing. You've had an enormous career, and as 239 00:13:12,260 --> 00:13:15,420 S2: I said, you've been a lifelong learner when it comes 240 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:18,780 S2: to leadership. You stumbled into it a bit, Michael, although 241 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:20,900 S2: you can correct me if I'm wrong, you stumbled into 242 00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:24,340 S2: it a bit. Uh, this idea of coaching others into 243 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:26,460 S2: being better leaders. Talk to me a little bit about 244 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:28,100 S2: how it came about. 245 00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:31,819 S3: One of the things that I always enjoyed about leading 246 00:13:31,820 --> 00:13:36,620 S3: was working with my leadership team. And, you know, I 247 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:38,660 S3: always felt that a big part of that job was 248 00:13:38,660 --> 00:13:41,100 S3: helping people with how to think about something. And so 249 00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,459 S3: one of the things that I have always loved about 250 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:47,020 S3: leadership is, you know, getting in a room, solving a problem, 251 00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:49,300 S3: working out a plan, thinking about where we're going to go, 252 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:52,860 S3: charting the direction and in a really collaborative way where 253 00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,740 S3: people sort of owned that. I learned. I learned as 254 00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:58,020 S3: a very young teacher that, you know, I was doing 255 00:13:58,020 --> 00:14:00,579 S3: some team teaching work is that if you have an 256 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:03,740 S3: idea and you take that idea into a space with others, 257 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:07,300 S3: that idea is only ever strengthened. Um, and it's a 258 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,580 S3: really important thing to remember that we are not the 259 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:12,420 S3: font of all knowledge, and we are not the, the, 260 00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:16,580 S3: you know, the masters and mistresses of every destiny. So, um, 261 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:19,140 S3: and then when I started working with people, you know, 262 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:21,420 S3: and I had the time to listen, and that is 263 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:24,420 S3: a huge privilege to have the time to listen. I 264 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:26,180 S3: would have liked to have thanked, as a leader of 265 00:14:26,180 --> 00:14:29,660 S3: large organizations, I was I was a good listener. But, um, 266 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:31,780 S3: you really are pressed for time a lot of the 267 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:34,700 S3: time to really deeply listen. And when you listen to people, 268 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:38,340 S3: you soon learn where the opportunities are for them and 269 00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:41,210 S3: with them, and then you just start working. So I 270 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:42,690 S3: always have a bit of a plan in my mind 271 00:14:42,730 --> 00:14:44,570 S3: of some of the things that I think are important 272 00:14:44,570 --> 00:14:50,210 S3: about helping grow others, but it shapes differently for every person. 273 00:14:50,410 --> 00:14:54,530 S3: And I think that, you know, choosing someone to work 274 00:14:54,530 --> 00:14:58,370 S3: with is a deeply personal thing. It's almost like choosing 275 00:14:58,370 --> 00:15:00,810 S3: your GP, and there'll be a range of factors in 276 00:15:00,810 --> 00:15:03,170 S3: people's minds about who that is and why that is, 277 00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:05,970 S3: and that should always remain a personal choice. 278 00:15:06,330 --> 00:15:08,210 S2: All right. So talk to me a little bit about 279 00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:13,890 S2: how you go about working with someone to improve their 280 00:15:13,890 --> 00:15:17,850 S2: executive presence or their leadership opportunities, or their prospect of 281 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:18,930 S2: being promoted. 282 00:15:18,970 --> 00:15:20,530 S3: Oh, this could be for sale, Helen. 283 00:15:20,530 --> 00:15:23,610 S2: Well, it could be, yes. I'm asking for a friend. 284 00:15:25,770 --> 00:15:28,730 S3: Seriously, it's a good question. And there are some really 285 00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:30,890 S3: important things that I think focus on. I've talked about 286 00:15:30,890 --> 00:15:33,450 S3: the importance of listening and trying to understand where someone's at, 287 00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:36,810 S3: and that looking at the context that they're working in, 288 00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:39,570 S3: who are they working for? Who are their superiors? What's 289 00:15:39,570 --> 00:15:42,410 S3: it like? What's their team like? What's happening with their team? 290 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:46,770 S3: Talked earlier about what's your conduct and presence in different meetings? 291 00:15:46,810 --> 00:15:49,210 S3: They're all different, right. If you're meeting with a minister 292 00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:51,730 S3: that's very different to meeting with your own team where 293 00:15:51,730 --> 00:15:55,130 S3: you're the leader. So how are you playing that? People 294 00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:56,890 S3: will talk to me about how they've got a meeting 295 00:15:56,890 --> 00:15:59,250 S3: coming up with, like, the head of the department or 296 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:02,050 S3: the head of the public service or something. Well, okay. 297 00:16:02,090 --> 00:16:04,730 S3: So what's that meeting all about and how are you 298 00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:07,210 S3: going to be and, you know, is your boss there 299 00:16:07,210 --> 00:16:09,770 S3: and why? And what does that look like? 300 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:12,250 S2: So can I can I interrupt you there? Because I'm 301 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:15,130 S2: a bit intrigued by this. Why would I be different 302 00:16:15,130 --> 00:16:17,810 S2: if I was meeting a minister versus meeting a member 303 00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:21,930 S2: of my team? And is that really necessary? And again, 304 00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:23,650 S2: I'm asking for a friend because I have a funny 305 00:16:23,650 --> 00:16:27,530 S2: feeling that I'm not adjusting my own presence at all, 306 00:16:27,890 --> 00:16:29,570 S2: and I'm not sure that I'm doing the right thing. 307 00:16:29,610 --> 00:16:31,250 S3: Then I think it is different. 308 00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:32,090 S2: Do you? Okay. 309 00:16:32,330 --> 00:16:35,170 S3: Yeah, I think it is different. And and I keep 310 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:39,000 S3: saying it's contextual. If you take ministers, for example, they're 311 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,920 S3: all different. Somebody wants some of them want to get 312 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,840 S3: in there and mix it up and have a good 313 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,920 S3: sort of where all mates conversation. Others are really hierarchical. 314 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:53,440 S3: So immediately you're moving between I'm, I'm sitting here, I'm listening. Um, 315 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,920 S3: I'm being seen to be absorbing. I'm thinking critically about 316 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,360 S3: what you're saying. I'm thinking really carefully and measured about 317 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,560 S3: what my next words are. I'm not particularly relaxed. We're 318 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,800 S3: all a bit on guard. There might be tension. Um, 319 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,560 S3: that is different to sitting there talking to someone who 320 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,760 S3: wants to work something through with you. Yeah. Um, and then, 321 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,280 S3: you know, if you're working with your boss. Well, what's 322 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,280 S3: your boss like? You might have a really great boss 323 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,000 S3: who really, you know, you feel really relaxed around, but 324 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,600 S3: you might have a boss who just seems constantly tense 325 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,160 S3: under pressure and so on. So I think we are 326 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,200 S3: always adjusting ourselves, and I think that's okay. I mean, 327 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,320 S3: I think that is part of the art of leading 328 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,600 S3: at all levels is that you get the context. 329 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,920 S2: So you, you really try to get underneath what the 330 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,920 S2: context is and what the what the environment is that 331 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,400 S2: somebody is working in. And before you can offer any 332 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,000 S2: real thoughtful assistance. 333 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,439 S3: I think you're doing someone a real disservice if you're not, 334 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,480 S3: if you're just going in with a with a pre-planned 335 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,280 S3: agenda about how someone should behave and operate, then that 336 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,959 S3: could get them into a lot of trouble. And, you know, 337 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,480 S3: particularly when you've when you've been a CEO. And I 338 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,560 S3: find that a lot of people are very focused on 339 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,199 S3: kind of the technical aspects of the job. People naturally 340 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,000 S3: want to do a great job. Like that's human nature, right? 341 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,600 S3: So they're often not going in there thinking about what's 342 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,520 S3: the boss's day like today? What's the day like today? 343 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,800 S3: What's their mood? What's their temperament? Um, what are they 344 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,040 S3: trying to achieve and how can I help them achieve it? 345 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,520 S3: And how do I kind of let all my lovely, 346 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,760 S3: important priorities go over here and just try and understand 347 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,320 S3: where they're at and what needs to happen today? And, 348 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,719 S3: you know, it's the same with, um, doing work with 349 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,670 S3: people around interview techniques. I have interviewed so many people 350 00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:40,310 S3: in my career, and I've been interviewed so many times. 351 00:18:40,590 --> 00:18:43,270 S3: And the, you know, as a, as a, as a CEO, 352 00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:46,390 S3: often interviewing people are just despair, often at the fact 353 00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:50,270 S3: that they just hadn't projected themselves into the space of 354 00:18:50,350 --> 00:18:53,429 S3: who they were working for and what was needing to 355 00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:55,870 S3: be achieved. They were very focused on what that job 356 00:18:55,869 --> 00:18:58,430 S3: description said, and it's very misleading, often. 357 00:18:58,790 --> 00:19:02,950 S2: A slight segue on that, too. There's a definite movement 358 00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:08,270 S2: around the individual, right? The the employer or the boss 359 00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:11,070 S2: has to be the right person for them, that it's 360 00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:15,070 S2: their values and their alignment that is important. Uh, versus, 361 00:19:15,109 --> 00:19:19,310 S2: as you say, giving the, the impression, if not the 362 00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:21,909 S2: reality that you're actually wanting to be part of a 363 00:19:21,910 --> 00:19:26,430 S2: team to make the boss's life happier or easier, uh, 364 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:30,469 S2: versus the values alignment or the individual needs of the 365 00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:32,350 S2: person who's going for the job. And I think I 366 00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:36,790 S2: think that's something that is a contemporary challenge for particularly 367 00:19:36,790 --> 00:19:38,750 S2: young people going to work, because I think they get 368 00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:41,350 S2: a lot of poor advice on that. And that's probably 369 00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:42,230 S2: what you've seen. 370 00:19:42,510 --> 00:19:45,710 S3: And we've got to stop this over formality of interview 371 00:19:45,710 --> 00:19:48,910 S3: processes anyway. I mean, it has a place, right? But, 372 00:19:49,109 --> 00:19:52,909 S3: you know, it's such a driven, traditional sort of process. I, 373 00:19:53,109 --> 00:19:54,790 S3: I was talking to someone the other day who was 374 00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:57,629 S3: telling me about how his son had just gone for 375 00:19:57,630 --> 00:20:02,110 S3: an interview to teach in an independent school, and, um, 376 00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:04,389 S3: got there and the principal said, well, let's just go 377 00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:06,950 S3: for a walk. And they just walked around the school chatting, 378 00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:09,629 S3: and I thought, that's brilliant, you know? 379 00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:12,429 S2: But, Michael, I want to go to something you and 380 00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:15,910 S2: I have talked privately about. And that is your mentoring 381 00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:19,350 S2: and training of women particularly. You've been involved with me 382 00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:21,869 S2: on how we assist men in the workplace. But I'm 383 00:20:21,869 --> 00:20:24,830 S2: interested in what you're saying when you're talking to women 384 00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:29,430 S2: directly and from the perspective before you are cautious on 385 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:33,540 S2: answering this question. Uh, from the perspective of a female 386 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:37,619 S2: listenership who are listening to this, uh, podcast to get 387 00:20:37,619 --> 00:20:42,260 S2: better at, at leadership and get better at managing difficult 388 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:45,340 S2: workplace situations. What are you seeing at the moment? 389 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:49,260 S3: Something I've noticed for quite a while, but I'm noticing 390 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:54,300 S3: much more deeply through working more deeply with people. And 391 00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:56,699 S3: some of the women that I've got the privilege of 392 00:20:56,700 --> 00:21:00,179 S3: working with are sort of, uh, typical of some of 393 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:04,459 S3: that research and evidence for whatever has driven that to be, 394 00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:08,939 S3: that they have immense loyalty. These are the people who 395 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:12,020 S3: are saying, I must complete this thing. I must do 396 00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:16,100 S3: these things. And I and I need to endure some 397 00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:19,020 S3: of these behaviors along the way that may not be 398 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:24,900 S3: so great. And working through that is, look, it's just 399 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:27,940 S3: an absolute privilege to let people talk about what this 400 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:31,660 S3: means to them and then to follow some sort of 401 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:35,700 S3: lines of, of of ways of operating or ways of 402 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,380 S3: thinking about things a little bit differently. Who you really 403 00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:41,820 S3: want to work for? Why? How important is that task? 404 00:21:41,859 --> 00:21:45,060 S3: Thinking about succession, you know, one people generally think about 405 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:47,980 S3: succession as, you know, who's going to do my job. 406 00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:52,859 S3: But succession is actually a lot about you as well. 407 00:21:52,859 --> 00:21:56,260 S3: And people don't like to think selfishly about themselves, and 408 00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:59,419 S3: that's how they perceive it when they're thinking about something. Uh, 409 00:21:59,420 --> 00:22:02,500 S3: perspective I put to people about succession, which is from 410 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,020 S3: a CEO's perspective, when I'm looking for someone to do 411 00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:06,900 S3: a piece of work, someone's just left over here and 412 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:08,500 S3: I go, oh, gosh, it'd be great if I could 413 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:12,219 S3: get X person. Oh, there's no one kind of behind them. 414 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:16,020 S3: That's just going to create another problem. So so succession 415 00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:17,859 S3: has a number of angles to it. One of those 416 00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,660 S3: is and this is a really important thing I find 417 00:22:20,660 --> 00:22:22,980 S3: with some of the women I work with is, you know, 418 00:22:23,020 --> 00:22:26,620 S3: build the succession behind you for multiple reasons. Might not 419 00:22:26,619 --> 00:22:28,540 S3: even be in your team. Start looking wider. You know 420 00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:30,940 S3: who are the people? Who are the high potential people 421 00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:33,780 S3: that you could support to shadow? You spend a bit 422 00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:36,780 S3: of time, act when you're away, you know, so that 423 00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:39,620 S3: at some point in time when there's the opportunity for you, 424 00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:42,020 S3: somebody goes, yeah, that's good. But you know, so and 425 00:22:42,020 --> 00:22:46,300 S3: so created this person over here could probably fill that space. 426 00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:50,340 S3: And so, so it's really just shifting the thinking, um, 427 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:53,540 S3: a lot of the time into, you know, a sort 428 00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:56,700 S3: of a level of confidence about why you're doing what 429 00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:00,419 S3: you're doing and how you can bash through the the 430 00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:03,460 S3: glass ceiling a bit and make some progress and make 431 00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:07,180 S3: a contribution. Because these people are great. They're not just good, 432 00:23:07,180 --> 00:23:12,020 S3: they're great. Um, and I've watched people jump from fourth 433 00:23:12,020 --> 00:23:16,780 S3: tier roles into, you know, junior CEO roles like amazing, 434 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:19,340 S3: but they're that good. They are that good. 435 00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:35,370 S2: I'm just going to ask you some some quickfire F.W. 436 00:23:35,410 --> 00:23:38,770 S2: leadership questions in the hope that our listeners can pick 437 00:23:38,770 --> 00:23:42,649 S2: up some small practical tips from you. Um, what's the 438 00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:45,250 S2: best piece of feedback you've received in your career? 439 00:23:45,410 --> 00:23:47,889 S3: Look, it felt a bit negative and it really, really 440 00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:50,970 S3: threw me. And when one of my bosses said to me, 441 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:54,730 S3: you know, like you need to remember that, you know, 442 00:23:54,770 --> 00:23:56,649 S3: you can be ten paces ahead of someone and you 443 00:23:56,650 --> 00:23:59,010 S3: need to let everyone else catch up. And, um, I 444 00:23:59,010 --> 00:24:01,490 S3: was so damaged by that. It was sort of about 445 00:24:01,490 --> 00:24:04,889 S3: humility and, you know, which is a really strong value 446 00:24:04,890 --> 00:24:08,330 S3: for me. And I thought, am I that bad? And, 447 00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:11,530 S3: you know, yeah, I probably was. And I was younger 448 00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:13,890 S3: then and I think I was probably lucky I got 449 00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:17,090 S3: told that then, you know, learnt from that and modified. 450 00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:19,330 S3: If you can't modify your behaviour you shouldn't be in 451 00:24:19,369 --> 00:24:22,530 S3: there doing this stuff. So that was probably a pretty 452 00:24:22,570 --> 00:24:23,250 S3: harsh one. 453 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:25,169 S2: How long did it take you to process that? 454 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:30,090 S3: Oh, months. Months. You know, gosh, you know, a lot 455 00:24:30,130 --> 00:24:34,689 S3: of leaders are very shy. I think actually quite high humility, 456 00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:37,130 S3: very sensitive. We know the ones who aren't, you know, 457 00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:39,330 S3: like you see it, but maybe that's just driven by 458 00:24:39,330 --> 00:24:43,770 S3: some insecurity. So, you know, we take things really hard 459 00:24:43,810 --> 00:24:48,409 S3: because we've all been pretty successful in one way or 460 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:50,889 S3: another to have got there. And then somebody tells you 461 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:55,250 S3: something negative and you just like, die inside. And I 462 00:24:55,290 --> 00:24:57,850 S3: just say to people, you know, you get knocked down, 463 00:24:57,850 --> 00:25:01,369 S3: you get back up again. Um, and it's not, it's 464 00:25:01,369 --> 00:25:03,410 S3: not going to be easy, but, but, but if you 465 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:06,490 S3: learn something from it, you'll be better. You'll be much better. Actually. 466 00:25:06,810 --> 00:25:09,170 S2: You and I have talked a lot about ego, too, 467 00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:12,730 S2: in leadership and recognizing when it kind of kicks in 468 00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:16,689 S2: and when your reactions are based on an ego response versus, 469 00:25:16,730 --> 00:25:19,649 S2: you know, a clear eyed response. Do you come across 470 00:25:19,650 --> 00:25:22,650 S2: that in your training much? Because I raise it because 471 00:25:22,690 --> 00:25:25,440 S2: I've done a little bit of mentoring myself and I 472 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,600 S2: can see an ego a long way out that is 473 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,640 S2: holding someone back and you're just like, oh, how do 474 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,040 S2: you have that conversation that this is really about ego. 475 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,560 S2: This is not really going to make you happy, and 476 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,760 S2: it's really not what you're good at. 477 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,960 S3: Well, if my my CEO role and I was thinking 478 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,959 S3: about what to do, and I actually just went and 479 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,919 S3: met with a whole lot of people, no real agenda. 480 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720 S3: I hadn't even started the firm at that stage, and 481 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,000 S3: I just was listening to people, just some people I knew, 482 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,240 S3: some people I didn't know very well. I searched way 483 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,160 S3: back from people I'd worked with a long time ago, 484 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,360 S3: who I thought were quite good and just went round 485 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,000 S3: around the country, actually meeting with a whole lot of people. And, 486 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,520 S3: you know, in a lot of cases that these are 487 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,160 S3: people with high humility and so on. But there there 488 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,879 S3: were some who I thought, you know, even if the 489 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,560 S3: opportunity came to work with you, I don't know, I 490 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,040 S3: could work with you because there's something in the way 491 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,520 S3: for you. And that is that. And quite frankly, you 492 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,000 S3: think you know it all, and I know you don't. 493 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,560 S3: And that's going to be really hard for you. You 494 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,920 S3: might you might get quite, quite up the rungs, but 495 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,520 S3: somewhere along the line you're going to have a pretty 496 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,560 S3: big fall. And I don't know if the hands are 497 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,120 S3: going to be there to catch you as you come down. 498 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,840 S2: Any career regrets? 499 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,880 S3: Oh, well, I'm a strong positive. As I've said, I 500 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,320 S3: like hugely privileged. I've been very lucky. It was one time, though, 501 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,840 S3: where I left a job and I left a job, 502 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840 S3: an important job, and I left it too long to 503 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,479 S3: make that decision. And I left quite quickly, and I 504 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,960 S3: left because of the leadership. And I look back on 505 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,880 S3: that and I think, you know, actually that that was 506 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,800 S3: hard on people. I mean, it was hard on me, 507 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,840 S3: but it was actually hard on a lot of people, um, 508 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,520 S3: that you kind of disappear on them and there's always 509 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,480 S3: some sort of story wrapped around it, which all sounds 510 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,800 S3: very plausible, but that would be be my regret is 511 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,400 S3: I wish I could have managed that a bit better 512 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,920 S3: and timed that a bit better and played that a 513 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,600 S3: bit better. And that's that's why I think it's really 514 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,720 S3: important to work with people who are looking for career 515 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,680 S3: coaching is like, think about that runway. 516 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,109 S2: And just to give you a supplementary question on that. 517 00:27:23,109 --> 00:27:26,270 S2: If if someone's listening to this and it's like, okay, 518 00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:29,470 S2: I hear him, you know, I should think about moving on. 519 00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:32,790 S2: What's your recommendation of how to execute that so that 520 00:27:32,790 --> 00:27:35,270 S2: you don't sort of look back in ten years time 521 00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:38,070 S2: and go, whoa, I, I ripped that bandaid off a 522 00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:40,350 S2: little too quickly and left a bit of a train 523 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:41,590 S2: wreck behind. 524 00:27:41,790 --> 00:27:44,670 S3: This isn't a promo for the business, but it's really 525 00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:48,310 S3: important to, I think, get advice. And so many of 526 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:51,190 S3: us have been guided so well, you know, who have 527 00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:55,790 S3: been ended up in senior positions and people are willing 528 00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:57,910 S3: to share and talk with you about their experiences and 529 00:27:57,910 --> 00:28:00,270 S3: how to think about how for you to think about 530 00:28:00,550 --> 00:28:04,190 S3: your next experience and what's good for you. And there 531 00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:07,670 S3: are so many tragic stories out there at the moment 532 00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:10,470 S3: about people who've just ended up in positions in a 533 00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:13,430 S3: context that is really damaging them. You know, I'm looking 534 00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:14,990 S3: at a situation in my own family at the moment. 535 00:28:14,990 --> 00:28:17,270 S3: I think, gosh, this is just so wrong. Maternity leave 536 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:20,910 S3: should not lead to this sort of destruction. So how 537 00:28:20,910 --> 00:28:23,469 S3: do you how do you support people to get out 538 00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:26,550 S3: of that? Because he gets a bit foggy in those situations. 539 00:28:26,550 --> 00:28:28,030 S3: And if you can find your own way through it 540 00:28:28,030 --> 00:28:30,310 S3: and sort it out, great. All the best. But I 541 00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:31,869 S3: don't think many of us are actually that good at 542 00:28:31,869 --> 00:28:33,430 S3: doing that completely independently. 543 00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:35,990 S2: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's absolutely right. 544 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:39,390 S2: Having done it a few times and and then helped 545 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:42,790 S2: people through it, it's really clear when you're working closely 546 00:28:42,790 --> 00:28:45,110 S2: with someone what the next steps are. But they really 547 00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:47,070 S2: do need guidance. You know, you kind of you need 548 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:49,270 S2: to sort of hold both, both hands in a way. 549 00:28:49,310 --> 00:28:53,190 S2: Because once emotion kicks in, once ego kicks in, once 550 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:58,270 S2: reputation kicks kicks in, then fear, you know about what's next. Um, 551 00:28:58,670 --> 00:29:03,350 S2: it can go. It can go wrong very quickly. Um, 552 00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:06,750 S2: the one question that I ask everybody who is on 553 00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:10,750 S2: this podcast is, what sort of leader are you? 554 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:14,030 S3: What sort of leader am I now? It's sort of 555 00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:17,150 S3: interesting because this has been like for me, this has 556 00:29:17,150 --> 00:29:21,740 S3: been a big transition And one of the things I 557 00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:25,780 S3: love about the leadership now is that it's quietly from behind. 558 00:29:25,780 --> 00:29:27,260 S3: It has a calmness about it. 559 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:30,900 S2: It's helping to follow that up by asking, what sort 560 00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:32,620 S2: of leader were you then? 561 00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:37,660 S3: Decisive. I was a very decisive, pretty action orientated. Get 562 00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:40,500 S3: to the metrics quickly, understand what's going on, look at 563 00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:43,620 S3: the culture, you know, a lot of analytics and then 564 00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:46,300 S3: move and move in a way that, you know, having 565 00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:49,460 S3: learnt that lesson many years earlier, bring as many people 566 00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:53,140 S3: into the thinking and the ownership of the thinking as 567 00:29:53,140 --> 00:29:57,340 S3: you can and and find a way forward together, build 568 00:29:57,340 --> 00:30:01,540 S3: great teams. I acted quickly in organisations to make sure 569 00:30:01,540 --> 00:30:03,740 S3: the team was right, and I mentioned some of those 570 00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:06,980 S3: behaviours that just were completely unacceptable to me. I remember 571 00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:09,940 S3: saying to a person who was leading all the regional 572 00:30:09,940 --> 00:30:13,140 S3: arms of a particular organisation saying, look, this is, you know, 573 00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:17,580 S3: there are X number of these people are about 70, 80% 574 00:30:17,620 --> 00:30:22,100 S3: were men. This is a largely female dominated profession. Where 575 00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:24,540 S3: are the the women who are leading in the space 576 00:30:24,540 --> 00:30:26,260 S3: and the point of these roles? And the response to 577 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,460 S3: me was, well, the girls just don't seem to apply. 578 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:32,420 S3: And well, that was it. Yeah. I just can't work 579 00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:36,020 S3: with someone like that. So, so being really decisive and 580 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:38,820 S3: clear about your values and what's important to you and 581 00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:42,060 S3: moving swiftly. That's not what I'm doing now. I don't 582 00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:43,420 S3: need to operate in that way. 583 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:45,540 S2: What did you say to that guy? What was the 584 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:48,220 S2: next step after that? Because I again, I'm asking for 585 00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:51,620 S2: a friend. Like, uh, someone gives you that kind of answer. 586 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:52,620 S2: What's the next steps? 587 00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:58,260 S3: Look, judgement is everything, right? And and, you know, I 588 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,620 S3: remember that moment very well. I think my jaw literally 589 00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:03,020 S3: dropped open. I don't think it was recognized by the 590 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:05,100 S3: person in front of me, because anyone who says that 591 00:31:05,380 --> 00:31:10,780 S3: really isn't self-aware enough about what they've really said. And, um, 592 00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:13,980 S3: I just thought, well, in, in a, in a really 593 00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:17,290 S3: senior leadership role, there is no hope there. There is 594 00:31:17,290 --> 00:31:20,650 S3: no time to try and correct that. That'll be deeply 595 00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:23,490 S3: within the organization. Actually, I've already got a sense about 596 00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:27,090 S3: how people were feeling about this particular person in their behavior. 597 00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:29,850 S3: And then I just went straight to the people I 598 00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:33,450 S3: needed to go to about the contractual arrangements and what 599 00:31:33,490 --> 00:31:36,410 S3: exit would look like, and then exited. Yeah, that's just 600 00:31:36,410 --> 00:31:37,450 S3: a whole nother process. 601 00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:40,570 S2: Michael, thank you very much for joining us today. It's 602 00:31:40,570 --> 00:31:43,170 S2: been amazing talking to you. Congratulations on the new business. 603 00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:45,610 S2: Look forward to continuing this conversation. But great to get 604 00:31:45,610 --> 00:31:46,810 S2: some of your insights. 605 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:49,490 S3: Thank you Helena and congratulations on the work of Future Woman. 606 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:50,210 S3: It's terrific. 607 00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:56,570 S2: This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal 608 00:31:56,570 --> 00:32:00,210 S2: people of the Aurora nation. It was produced by Odessa Blain, 609 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:02,730 S2: Susan Warby and led by Paddy Andrews.