WEBVTT - ‘Explosive’ evidence heard as Alan Jones’ trial begins 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.080 Is Alan Jones guilty of multiple counts of indecent assault? 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.760 Or are the allegations against him by six men the 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:20.880 result of treachery, desperation and opportunism, as Jones barrister has argued? 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.960 I'm Samantha Selinger Morris and you're listening to The Morning 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.240 Edition from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.120 crime reporter Claire Sibthorpe on the allegations aired in court 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.120 so far in the trial of Alan Jones, which began 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.080 this week. And what we can expect in this unusual trial. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.199 Claire, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much. Glad to 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.599 be here. Now, you were there on the first day 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.480 of Alan Jones's trial. This was on Monday. So can 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.760 you just tell us what the scene was like when 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.900 he arrived at the Downing Centre Local Court in Sydney. 0:01:01.140 --> 0:01:03.500 And I guess what his demeanor was like during the day. 0:01:04.100 --> 0:01:08.060 Absolutely. So Alan Jones arrived at court in a black BMW. 0:01:08.100 --> 0:01:10.660 He was accompanied by his lawyer, Bryan Wrench. 0:01:12.020 --> 0:01:15.460 It's been dubbed the Trial of the year. Former broadcaster 0:01:15.459 --> 0:01:19.660 Alan Jones accused of indecent assault and sexual touching charges. 0:01:19.740 --> 0:01:23.620 A veteran of 35 years behind the microphone, Alan Jones 0:01:23.620 --> 0:01:25.020 was silent today. 0:01:25.300 --> 0:01:28.459 Almost all the news rather than be reporting on it. No, 0:01:28.459 --> 0:01:30.220 don't worry about it. We're just going to keep walking. 0:01:30.260 --> 0:01:32.660 Don't have anything more to say about how you plan 0:01:32.660 --> 0:01:34.660 to defend. Do you think you'll be here for every 0:01:34.700 --> 0:01:37.860 day of the trial? Will you continue to maintain your innocence, sir? 0:01:38.860 --> 0:01:42.459 We navigated quite a thick media scrum, as you can imagine, 0:01:42.459 --> 0:01:45.380 but made his way very slowly into the Downing Centre 0:01:45.380 --> 0:01:49.740 Court complex. He arrives actually, not too long before the 0:01:49.940 --> 0:01:53.820 proceedings kicked off at 10 a.m. he used a cane 0:01:53.820 --> 0:01:56.620 and he did greet a few journalists among the very 0:01:56.620 --> 0:02:00.970 long queue waiting to get inside court 3.1. Now, once 0:02:00.970 --> 0:02:04.250 he was inside the court, he sat in a special chair, 0:02:04.290 --> 0:02:07.290 flanked by his group of high profile lawyers, and he 0:02:07.330 --> 0:02:10.649 sat waiting for the judge, looking out into the distance, um, 0:02:10.650 --> 0:02:14.970 quite fidgety, twirling his cane. And, you know, it wasn't 0:02:14.970 --> 0:02:18.730 clear if he was nervous or impatient, but he was 0:02:18.730 --> 0:02:23.050 definitely moving around a little bit. He sort of swapped 0:02:23.050 --> 0:02:27.010 between writing notes and just staring out into the distance, 0:02:27.169 --> 0:02:31.450 pursed lips occasionally actually nodding off. Um, near the end 0:02:31.450 --> 0:02:33.930 of the day, I mean, let's remember he is 85 0:02:33.930 --> 0:02:36.930 and he does have to appear every day for this trial. 0:02:36.930 --> 0:02:40.130 So it'll be interesting to see, you know, his demeanour. 0:02:44.370 --> 0:02:46.489 And just before we get to the trial itself, can 0:02:46.490 --> 0:02:49.049 you just rewind a little bit and just remind all 0:02:49.050 --> 0:02:52.369 of us really how we got here? Because Alan Jones was, 0:02:52.570 --> 0:02:54.570 you know, once one of the most powerful people in 0:02:54.570 --> 0:02:57.730 Australian media. So I guess just briefly, how did he 0:02:57.730 --> 0:03:02.430 amass so much power and influence with media, with politicians 0:03:02.710 --> 0:03:04.750 and the, you know, general public. 0:03:05.630 --> 0:03:09.150 So he amassed that power over a very long, several 0:03:09.150 --> 0:03:15.390 decades career in radio before retiring from TB in May 2020. 0:03:15.430 --> 0:03:19.310 He wielded a massive amount of political, social and commercial 0:03:19.310 --> 0:03:23.750 power in Australia. He actually started his career as a teacher. 0:03:23.870 --> 0:03:26.310 He was a political candidate at the time. He was 0:03:26.310 --> 0:03:30.150 a speechwriter coach of the Australian National Rugby Union team, 0:03:30.389 --> 0:03:34.710 and then he dominated Sydney Breakfast Radio for 35 years. 0:03:35.350 --> 0:03:37.710 A single rant on his show could trigger a swathe 0:03:37.710 --> 0:03:43.030 of calls to parliamentarians, influence policy and sway election margins. Now, 0:03:43.030 --> 0:03:46.550 some would say that Jones's power stemmed partly from political 0:03:46.550 --> 0:03:49.910 fear rather than respect, and his time on the airwaves 0:03:49.910 --> 0:03:53.150 was not without quite a few controversies. Now, when he 0:03:53.150 --> 0:03:55.990 announced his retirement in 2020, he had had a lot 0:03:55.990 --> 0:03:59.860 of his controversies quite recently. but he told listeners it 0:03:59.860 --> 0:04:03.180 was due to health concerns from the detrimental workload that 0:04:03.180 --> 0:04:04.220 he had been carrying. 0:04:04.820 --> 0:04:05.300 Okay. 0:04:05.340 --> 0:04:09.140 And then Jones was then arrested back in November 2024. 0:04:09.180 --> 0:04:12.100 So can you just tell us about the police investigation, 0:04:12.140 --> 0:04:15.180 the arrest and the charges that were brought against him? 0:04:15.740 --> 0:04:19.460 Yeah. So it was actually a 2023 investigation by the 0:04:19.460 --> 0:04:25.220 Herald's chief investigative reporter, Kate McClymont. Now, her investigation sparked 0:04:25.300 --> 0:04:28.860 the secret creation of Strike Force Bonython, run by the 0:04:28.860 --> 0:04:32.860 State Crime Command, Child Abuse and Sex Crimes Squad. Big 0:04:32.860 --> 0:04:36.820 name there. So that investigation, Strike Force Bonython spent the 0:04:36.820 --> 0:04:42.940 next year examining the former TV broadcaster. Then in November 2024, 0:04:42.980 --> 0:04:46.700 detectives swooped in on Jones at his luxury harbourside apartment 0:04:46.700 --> 0:04:50.940 in Circular Quay. They seized his devices and arrested him. 0:04:51.420 --> 0:04:54.020 First, some news just in New South Wales. Police have 0:04:54.020 --> 0:04:58.799 arrested veteran broadcaster Alan Jones following an investigation into alleged 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:03.200 indecent assault and sexual touching offences spanning two decades. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.080 At 745 this morning. The Child Abuse Squad came knocking 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.400 on the door of his $20 million apartment in the 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.479 toaster at Circular Quay. The raid first making headlines on 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:15.640 the radio station. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.080 Fast forward to now. Alan Jones faces 22 charges against 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:24.880 six complainants, and this spans from 2003 to 2020. There 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.000 were some changes in the number of charges and the 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.400 types of charges and the number of complainants, but that's 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.240 where we're at today as the trial starts. Now. At 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.040 the time of the alleged incidents, the complainants ranged in 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.839 age from 17 to their early 30s. Of course, Jones 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.680 maintains his innocence and is defending all of the charges 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.360 at his trial. Two of the charges are sexual touching 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.600 without consent and the rest of them are indecent assault. 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.920 The accusations include unsolicited and unwanted touching of the alleged 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.560 victim's genitals or their bottom and kissing their lips. Some 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.470 of these alleged incidents took place in private, such as 0:05:59.470 --> 0:06:03.550 inside Jones's workplace, his Circular Quay apartment and his Fitzroy 0:06:03.589 --> 0:06:07.670 Falls farm, while others actually allegedly occurred in public at 0:06:07.670 --> 0:06:11.150 fundraising events and even at a Lower North Shore restaurant. 0:06:12.310 --> 0:06:14.550 Okay, so this is a long time coming before we 0:06:14.550 --> 0:06:17.590 get to the trial itself, which of course began this week. 0:06:17.710 --> 0:06:19.870 So tell us a bit about how the prosecution is 0:06:19.870 --> 0:06:21.469 trying to form its case. 0:06:22.190 --> 0:06:24.630 So obviously there are quite a few charges. We've got 0:06:24.630 --> 0:06:27.470 22 as I just said. And what the Crown is 0:06:27.470 --> 0:06:31.150 seeking to rely upon is types of circumstantial evidence. Now 0:06:31.150 --> 0:06:35.589 this is known as tendency. Well, there's two tendency and coincidence. 0:06:35.710 --> 0:06:38.270 So what the Crown is alleging is that Jones had 0:06:38.270 --> 0:06:42.390 a tendency to act on a sexual interest in significantly 0:06:42.390 --> 0:06:45.270 younger men, and he acted on this by touching them 0:06:45.270 --> 0:06:49.110 in a professional or social context without their consent. The 0:06:49.110 --> 0:06:51.950 coincidence evidence seeks to draw on what the Crown has 0:06:51.950 --> 0:06:56.670 identified as similarities in the complainants allegations. Basically, they're arguing 0:06:56.810 --> 0:07:00.810 that these similarities demonstrate the improbability that two or more 0:07:00.810 --> 0:07:04.489 men unknown to each other, could fabricate such reports of 0:07:04.490 --> 0:07:07.930 similar allegations against the same person, coincidentally. 0:07:08.930 --> 0:07:11.170 And we know that Alan Jones, he's entitled to the 0:07:11.170 --> 0:07:14.810 presumption of innocence, and the prosecution has to prove that 0:07:14.810 --> 0:07:18.850 the alleged indecent assault and sexual touching offenses, they've got 0:07:18.850 --> 0:07:20.810 to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. So I 0:07:20.810 --> 0:07:23.250 guess take us to the Alan Jones side, because his 0:07:23.250 --> 0:07:26.290 lead barrister gave an opening address on Monday. I think 0:07:26.290 --> 0:07:28.090 it's safe to say she didn't hold back. So tell 0:07:28.090 --> 0:07:31.410 us what she said, what might be their approach to, 0:07:31.610 --> 0:07:32.930 you know, presenting their case. 0:07:33.410 --> 0:07:36.290 She definitely didn't hold back. You're right there Samantha. So 0:07:36.330 --> 0:07:40.530 Alan Jones's lead barrister is Gabrielle Bashir SC. She went 0:07:40.530 --> 0:07:43.730 straight into it with some very strong language. Her opening 0:07:43.730 --> 0:07:50.090 line was rivalry, treachery, double dealing, money, hatred, desperation, opportunism 0:07:50.090 --> 0:07:53.450 and more are all at the heart of this case. So, 0:07:53.450 --> 0:07:57.590 she alleges one complainant rewrote the history of his relationship 0:07:57.590 --> 0:08:01.070 with Jones. She also claims that Jones's former two DB 0:08:01.110 --> 0:08:05.070 stable mate Ray Hadley, helped fuel media reports about the 0:08:05.070 --> 0:08:09.350 allegations as part of this wider trial by media attack, 0:08:09.350 --> 0:08:13.230 which included other journalists, including the Herald's Kate McClymont. Now, 0:08:13.270 --> 0:08:16.310 Bashir told the court that rumours and media coverage are 0:08:16.310 --> 0:08:18.950 at the heart of more than a reasonable possibility of 0:08:18.950 --> 0:08:23.510 contamination or reconstruction in this case. She said that the 0:08:23.510 --> 0:08:27.030 credibility and reliability of the complainants will be tested in 0:08:27.030 --> 0:08:27.950 a lengthy trial. 0:08:31.790 --> 0:08:32.710 After the break. 0:08:33.830 --> 0:08:37.189 Now, when the young man was explaining this allegation of 0:08:37.190 --> 0:08:41.590 being indecently assaulted inside Jones's car while they were driving 0:08:41.630 --> 0:08:44.630 to his farm, it was it was, I would say, 0:08:44.630 --> 0:08:45.630 quite explosive. 0:08:57.700 --> 0:09:00.220 Now, we're recording this early in the morning on Tuesday, 0:09:00.220 --> 0:09:03.060 just before the second day of the trial commences. But 0:09:03.059 --> 0:09:06.300 on the first day, we heard some explosive testimony from 0:09:06.300 --> 0:09:09.340 a person known as complainant J. So can you just 0:09:09.340 --> 0:09:11.540 tell us about who he is and the account that 0:09:11.540 --> 0:09:14.260 he gave of his allegations against Ellen Jones? 0:09:14.780 --> 0:09:17.740 Yes. So complainant J was the only person that we 0:09:17.740 --> 0:09:20.540 heard from in terms of testimony yesterday. We heard the 0:09:20.540 --> 0:09:23.420 opening addresses from the Crown and Defence, and then we 0:09:23.420 --> 0:09:26.060 moved on to complainant J who was halfway through his 0:09:26.059 --> 0:09:29.939 evidence at the moment. So nine of the 22 allegations 0:09:29.940 --> 0:09:32.780 against Jones relate to complainant J. He was a young 0:09:32.820 --> 0:09:35.260 athlete at the time. He told the court that he 0:09:35.260 --> 0:09:38.140 was 14 or 15 when he met Jones, after the 0:09:38.140 --> 0:09:40.380 two GB hosts reached out to him to interview him 0:09:40.380 --> 0:09:43.620 about a sporting achievement. Now the alleged offences began some 0:09:43.620 --> 0:09:47.500 years later when he was in year 12. Jones allegedly 0:09:47.500 --> 0:09:50.860 lavished gifts today, including a car and a mobile phone, 0:09:51.059 --> 0:09:54.660 before indecently assaulting him several times and paying him hundreds 0:09:54.660 --> 0:09:58.520 of dollars a week. Jones allegedly kissed and touched complainant 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.640 J in his harborside apartment at his Fitzroy Falls farm 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.920 and inside a car while the young man was driving. Now, 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.800 when the young man was explaining this allegation of being 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.760 indecently assaulted inside Jones's car while they were driving to 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.599 his farm, it was it was, I would say, quite explosive. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.400 I mean, he was alleging that the assault caused him 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.960 to veer off the road, which I imagine would have 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.600 been quite scary. Now the man described conflicting feelings of 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.319 fear towards Jones, but also gratitude for his support. He 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.040 came from quite a difficult upbringing, and he hadn't had 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.000 a mobile phone before, and he was gifted a car, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:44.320 and he obviously appreciated these gifts. But at the same time, 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.600 he was fearful of Jones and his power and he 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.240 was fearful to speak out. And so. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:51.360 I guess, what can we expect. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.520 From the rest of the trial, and who else are 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:54.910 we expecting to hear from. 0:10:55.350 --> 0:10:58.270 With this local court trial, which is actually expected to 0:10:58.309 --> 0:11:02.230 last until close to Christmas. It's not really known how 0:11:02.230 --> 0:11:04.390 it will all fold out. Now we know we have 0:11:04.390 --> 0:11:06.830 several months of evidence. We know there are more than 0:11:06.870 --> 0:11:09.870 70 witnesses that are expected to be called, but the 0:11:09.870 --> 0:11:13.230 order of those witnesses is unclear at the moment. As 0:11:13.230 --> 0:11:16.510 I said, we're halfway through day's evidence, so he will 0:11:16.510 --> 0:11:19.670 be cross-examined by the defense when he finishes his evidence 0:11:19.670 --> 0:11:22.990 in chief. And then the Crown will continue to call 0:11:22.990 --> 0:11:25.230 different witnesses, and then it will move on to the 0:11:25.230 --> 0:11:26.510 defense's case. 0:11:27.190 --> 0:11:28.710 And just to wrap up, Claire, this. 0:11:28.710 --> 0:11:32.110 Is a judge only trial. So is that unusual? And 0:11:32.110 --> 0:11:34.710 I guess what does that mean, if anything, for Alan Jones? 0:11:35.429 --> 0:11:38.069 It is quite unusual for a trial of this type 0:11:38.070 --> 0:11:40.710 and length to be held in a lower local court. 0:11:41.110 --> 0:11:43.870 What it means is that Jones will not be facing 0:11:44.550 --> 0:11:47.190 a jury, as he probably would have done in a 0:11:47.190 --> 0:11:51.510 higher court, and instead will face local court judge Glen Walsh, 0:11:51.510 --> 0:11:54.490 who will decide his fate. Now the decision for the 0:11:54.490 --> 0:11:57.250 Crown to prosecute in the lower court was able to 0:11:57.290 --> 0:12:00.730 be made, because some of the more serious features of 0:12:00.730 --> 0:12:04.610 some of the charges were withdrawn, meaning the charges were 0:12:04.850 --> 0:12:07.850 low enough in legal terms, of course, to be held 0:12:07.850 --> 0:12:11.370 in the local court. Now, Judge Walsh will decide whether 0:12:11.370 --> 0:12:15.090 the prosecution has proved beyond reasonable doubt that Jones is 0:12:15.090 --> 0:12:18.250 guilty on each offence. So remember, he has to make 0:12:18.250 --> 0:12:22.370 a decision on each of the 22 offences and then 0:12:22.370 --> 0:12:25.130 later down the track, he will decide any sentence in 0:12:25.130 --> 0:12:26.490 the event of a conviction. 0:12:27.650 --> 0:12:30.010 Well, thank you so much, Clare for your time. 0:12:30.530 --> 0:12:32.130 Thank you so much for having me. It was great 0:12:32.130 --> 0:12:32.650 to chat. 0:12:40.690 --> 0:12:44.729 In other news, Qantas is considering outsourcing up to 1000 0:12:44.730 --> 0:12:47.449 roles to India as part of a deal with consulting 0:12:47.450 --> 0:12:51.610 giant Accenture that looks to harness the power of artificial intelligence. 0:12:52.250 --> 0:12:57.160 Gambling industry representatives have rejected explosive claims about addicts being 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.080 offered drugs and escorts through company VIP programs. At the 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:06.280 Senate inquiry probing the Albanese government's proposed gambling reform and 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.680 rising Liberal star Andrew Hastie says he hopes to receive 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.800 One Nation preferences at the next election after acknowledging his 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:18.120 own political mortality, despite previously vowing to never bend the 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.120 knee to Pauline Hanson. You can read more at the 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:29.480 age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.959 Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.839 overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.760 our show, follow The Morning Edition and leave a review 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.199 for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.