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Speaker 1: I'm Adam Swat, I'm a dear shiftman. And this is

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Speaker 1: the contrarians with Adam and Adire. I did, how often

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Speaker 1: you check your life trauma or TPD insurance?

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Speaker 2: I would say I never check it, and I'm quite

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Speaker 2: neglectful with that altogether.

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Speaker 1: I don't blame you. I think I checked mine for

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Speaker 1: about ten years. I just kept paying more and more

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Speaker 1: every year and it's got like ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean, people

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Speaker 2: approach me about life insurance periodically and I kind of

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Speaker 2: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention

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Speaker 2: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention.

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Speaker 1: Actually I have it, but I was so slack I

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Speaker 1: kept paying it year on year. And I've got a

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Speaker 1: whold of the team from Safety Nest and I'm furious

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Speaker 1: for not doing this sooner. Why So, the Safety Nest

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Speaker 1: team did a complete check of all my different policies

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Speaker 1: life trauma TPD and they literally, in a few hours

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Speaker 1: was able to restructure my policies and remove always unnecessary

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Speaker 1: stuff I was paying for in need and actually say

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a year.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, is that there's there is nobody that

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Speaker 2: would be more strated about wasting money than you think

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Speaker 2: of all of the things that you can spend it on.

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Speaker 2: I mean literally no food or drink.

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Speaker 1: You well, it's bitter a sweet because I love saving money,

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Speaker 1: but I hate the fact I wasn't saving money for you, Chen. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's just the cash shaving. The Safety and Nest

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Speaker 1: team also recommended different cover up for our kids, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize you get kid insurance as well. Just

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Speaker 1: gives you extra peace of mind. The last thing you

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Speaker 1: want to do is leave your partner and family in

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Speaker 1: a really tough position if God forbid, something terrible happens,

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Speaker 1: and if you don't have or aren't properly being advised

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Speaker 1: for critical insurances to protect you and your family. You

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Speaker 1: can get in touch with the team at Safety Nest

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Speaker 1: who will give our listeners a free, no obligation consultation

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Speaker 1: to make sure you're optimizing spend and policies. Just go

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Speaker 1: to safetynest dot com dot au and click to get started,

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Speaker 1: or give a call on one three hundred zero five

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Speaker 1: five nine two two. Have you ever used venture debt

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Speaker 1: or growth credit in your businesses?

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Speaker 2: I haven't used it, but I think it's one of

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Speaker 2: the more interesting innovations that has come to growth capital

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Speaker 2: in the last decade. And I think, what if I

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Speaker 2: said to you, I don't think it gets enough credit,

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Speaker 2: You're totally right.

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Speaker 1: The team at Mighty Partners have been funding scaling Aussie

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Speaker 1: businesses for five years by providing up to five million

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Speaker 1: dollars in flexible credit designed for high growth businesses.

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Speaker 2: Well, five million dollars actually is a ton of money.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing, it's that high. That's some serious capital.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Some companies used to accelerate growth funds and acquisition

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Speaker 1: or extend runway, but growth credit can be a cheaper

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Speaker 1: and more flexible option without having to give up equity.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. I think people are very

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Speaker 2: fixated on interest rate when it comes to venture it,

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Speaker 2: which I do think is important. But the other side

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Speaker 2: of the coin is what the value of the equity

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Speaker 2: is that ultimately you're giving up when you take venture funding.

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Speaker 1: Totally and Mighty Partners have funded companies like Amber Electric,

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Speaker 1: Wi Money and Sprint Law. And if you want to

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Speaker 1: find a smarter way to fund your next phase, go

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Speaker 1: to Mighty Partners, dot com, dot AU, forward Slash Contrarians,

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Speaker 1: and we're back episode one hundred and one. Ask anything.

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Speaker 1: We'll go straight to the first question. Remember this is

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Speaker 1: the episode where you can ask us any questions you

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Speaker 1: have on business, tech, growth, or anything you want to

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Speaker 1: ask us. Mike, first question, Okay, Our.

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Speaker 3: First question today comes in from Shannon over on LinkedIn

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Speaker 3: to Adam and Adeer. You've both had remarkable journeys and

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Speaker 3: years as entrepreneurs, multiple ventures, moments of failure and success.

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Speaker 3: What keeps your ambition going today? How has your drive

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Speaker 3: evolved since you first started out? And if you could

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Speaker 3: speak to your twenty to twenty five year old self,

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Speaker 3: what would you say about ambition and sustaining it over time?

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Speaker 3: So a few questions in one there, but do your

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Speaker 3: best with that one.

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Speaker 2: Well, movie and ambition has changed over the years. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think too much ambition is not a healthy thing

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Speaker 2: to have, but unfortunately it's essential for having a lot

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Speaker 2: of success. Maybe not essential is not the word. Very

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Speaker 2: very occasionally, I have seen people enjoy some pretty significant

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Speaker 2: success and live very nice lifestyles and they're not especially

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Speaker 2: ambitious people. They're pretty relaxed people actually, but they're also

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Speaker 2: lucky people. And it's uncommon, so I think it is

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Speaker 2: a prerequisite for having significant success, you know, in terms

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Speaker 2: of maintaining it an over a period of time. I

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Speaker 2: think it's not an easy question for me to answer.

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Speaker 2: The way I've always felt is that when I see

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Speaker 2: something interesting going on, it makes me feel a bit

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Speaker 2: sick not to be a part of it, and I

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Speaker 2: just really want to be a part of it, and

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Speaker 2: so I just try to push my way in and

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Speaker 2: say yes to things and become a part of them.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not sure. I mean, it's definitely not a

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Speaker 2: conscious decision. It's just an innate, gut thing of like,

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I have to be a part

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Speaker 2: of it. And over time, you know, you might think, well,

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Speaker 2: you know what. I think it depends on what your

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Speaker 2: drivers of the ambition are. If my primary driver was

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Speaker 2: trying to make money, then probably there are people that

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Speaker 2: want to have an ambition to make a certain amount

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Speaker 2: of money and then retire and then they go and

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Speaker 2: that's their ambition and they've achieved it and they got

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Speaker 2: and do something else. I think for me, my ambition

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Speaker 2: has always just to be a part of building things

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Speaker 2: and doing stuff with smart, good people, and there's no

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Speaker 2: end to the ability to do that, and so why

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Speaker 2: would the ambition wear off? And I think my ambition

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Speaker 2: is just broadened beyond the things that I was interested in,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm interested in more things, but the same

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Speaker 2: basic premise of and you know, it's nice to make money,

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Speaker 2: but like just being building things and making a difference

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Speaker 2: with smart, nice people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a really great answer idea. I

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Speaker 1: think if your ambition is making lots of money, you're

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Speaker 1: never going to be particularly happy because there's always it's

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Speaker 1: always relative, right, there's always someone rich out, there's always

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Speaker 1: someone who's got more planes and jets and whatever, more

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Speaker 1: planes and yachts or whatever. So I think for me

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Speaker 1: it's really similar. It's building something that outlives me and

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Speaker 1: being able to work with great people, which we have

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Speaker 1: been super lucky to do so in terms of like,

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Speaker 1: I think the one great myth is people think business

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Speaker 1: gets harder as businesses get bigger, and there's this great

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Speaker 1: lionization of the company CEOs. If you're a CEO who

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Speaker 1: runs a bank or a tell a big telco, these

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Speaker 1: people are super smart, Like the bigger the business, the

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Speaker 1: easier the job, the easier the CEO role like the

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Speaker 1: harder CEO roles, the founder roles when there's just you

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Speaker 1: and one or two other people and you've got to

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Speaker 1: put your furnish together and you don't have enough money

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Speaker 1: to tend the lights on and you're gonna have money

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Speaker 1: to hire people's that's the really hard jobs. As you

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Speaker 1: get bigger, it becomes easier. But in terms of ambition,

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Speaker 1: I think for me is the goalpost change. The goalposts

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Speaker 1: become higher, so to speak, in that I think we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this on the pod. When if we could

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Speaker 1: have sold the business for twenty million bucks in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: would have thought, this is the most incredible thing ever

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Speaker 1: and everything's been accomplished, and now obviously that happened, that

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Speaker 1: it'd be I'd be lynched. So it's the relativity has change.

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Speaker 1: But I think I think most founders and founders we

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Speaker 1: obviously work with the people who've been able to run

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Speaker 1: a business for a long period of time have to

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Speaker 1: keep growing with the business. You have to be, as

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Speaker 1: read Hoffman's as a constant, constant learner. So you've got

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Speaker 1: to keep learning, keep evolving. So I think as we've

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Speaker 1: grown throughout, but you've been doing you've been in business

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Speaker 1: and actually just got out from zen episode I did

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Speaker 1: with you will put it on this thread at some

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Speaker 1: point where we talked about your business career. You've had

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Speaker 1: this incredible business career for more than twenty years across

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Speaker 1: probably fifteen or twenty business as we have continued to grow.

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Speaker 1: I've probably been a bit more with this business for

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Speaker 1: a bit longer, but obviously grown as latuy Escape has grown.

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Speaker 1: So I think you just you your ambition grows with

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Speaker 1: the state you're in. But this is such a great question.

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Speaker 1: I love the question, and I think if you're investing

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Speaker 1: in a founding, you kind of want that ambition to

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Speaker 1: grow as the business grows.

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Speaker 2: So as a person, I think it's a broader question,

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Speaker 2: which is it's important to make sure that as new

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Speaker 2: things come into your life, you integrate those into what

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Speaker 2: your ambition is. And so we've both got kids, and

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Speaker 2: so like spending a lot of time with my kids

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Speaker 2: and being a good dad, like that is a very

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Speaker 2: primary ambition of mine, and it definitely wasn't when I

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Speaker 2: was in my twenties. Like I thought those people that

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Speaker 2: proortized their family with wire losers who didn't really want

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Speaker 2: to succeed and now I realized that's the most that's

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Speaker 2: the winningest of winning things you can do is to

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Speaker 2: prioritize your kids. And so I think like my idea

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Speaker 2: of what ambition means has changed over time. That is

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Speaker 2: probably one of the biggest changes for me now.

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Speaker 1: As Scott Galloway says, if you're in your twenties and

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Speaker 1: even thirties, you can you can have it all. We

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Speaker 1: can't have it all right now. So I think if

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Speaker 1: you're trying to grow a business really fast and trying

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Speaker 1: to work really hard, it's really incompatible with spending lots

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Speaker 1: and lost time with the kids. So we've both been

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Speaker 1: able to evolve. Me in the last five years. You

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Speaker 1: probably a bit earlier, obviously your kids a bit older,

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Speaker 1: but me in the last five year. Obviously with Covid

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Speaker 1: as well, that changed things for everyone. But in the

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Speaker 1: last five years I've been able to spend more time

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Speaker 1: with the kids as the business has changed somewhat. The

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Speaker 1: business isn't dependent on me. We've got incredible teams, so

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Speaker 1: they can do a lot of stuff that I used

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Speaker 1: to have to do. So that ambition may be changing,

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Speaker 1: but me, like the time you spend on your business

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Speaker 1: also changes, so you're able to do different stuff as

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Speaker 1: your life cycle changes.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that someone who's ford let's say forty,

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter what gender, and they've got kids, let's say

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Speaker 2: their kids are ten ish, that kind of age, like,

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Speaker 2: do you think they should go and have this huge

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Speaker 2: passion for building a company at that age or do

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Speaker 2: you think because like, if we would have done that,

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't have had the time with our kids that

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Speaker 2: we had or that we have. So I think in

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Speaker 2: a way, with the fact that we did it when

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Speaker 2: we were relatively young made it much much easier.

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Speaker 1: Totally.

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Speaker 2: If I would have done it at forty, I would

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Speaker 2: have been much better, but the juggle would have been

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Speaker 2: much harder, And so it's kind of it's kind of

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Speaker 2: a bit tricky.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess if you have your kids at twenty five,

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Speaker 1: for example, by the time you're forty, the kids.

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Speaker 2: Are much more than kids are twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Some people do so I'm sure someone wh listens to

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Speaker 1: our kids are twenty five, they definitely people have kids

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Speaker 1: in the twenties. Even if he had kids at twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: by the time you're forty forty one, the kids are

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Speaker 1: much more self.

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Speaker 2: They're twelve age where you want to be with them.

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Speaker 1: But it's not like they're five and three and completely

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Speaker 1: dependent on you, so it's a bit little bit different.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's harder because when they're they kind

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Speaker 2: of demand your time. But when they're twelve, you could

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Speaker 2: easily get away with not spending that much time with them,

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Speaker 2: and that's like probably a heavy regret ten years later.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not like, I don't know the answer, but

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Speaker 2: I think it was easier for us to be I'm

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Speaker 2: going to call it commercially ambitious in our twenties because

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Speaker 2: there was nothing that you had to worry about except yourself.

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Speaker 2: Like I thought my parents were annoying when I was

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Speaker 2: in my twenties, Now I feel very differently. I want

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Speaker 2: to spend time with them. I just thought I didn't

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Speaker 2: care about anything except professional success pretty much and playing

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Speaker 2: sport and video games.

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Speaker 1: I think there's there's a lot of great entrepreneurs who

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Speaker 1: didn't get going. Obviously, Famously, Warren Buffett made almost all

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Speaker 1: his money when he was old and fifty ray crocs

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Speaker 1: start at McDonald's when it's fifty. There's plenty of incredible

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurs who started very late. So the notion that entrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: had to be twenty years old dropp out from half

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Speaker 1: and is actually statistically it's actually wrong. The best time

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Speaker 1: is mid thirties, which is you're sort of bumping up

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Speaker 1: against kids, but they're younger. That's sort of talking about

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Speaker 1: before the Eileen yunic On study that the classic neotypical

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Speaker 1: founder is two thirty founders, two thirty five year old

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Speaker 1: dudes who went through a university in the States. That's

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Speaker 1: sort of classic prototype. I'm not saying that's what it

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Speaker 1: should be or it's great, but that's what it is,

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Speaker 1: and it's changing, but that's what it is. So I

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Speaker 1: think it can be a great entrepreneur at forty forty five,

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Speaker 1: but you're giving up something different to what we gave

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Speaker 1: up at twenty five for sure.

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Speaker 2: This is my last point. Very wise people say to me,

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Speaker 2: before you become financially successful, you should set a number

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Speaker 2: that says, when I get to this number, that's what

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Speaker 2: I need to have a happy life and to not

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Speaker 2: work if I don't want to, et cetera. And the

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Speaker 2: number is actually it's actually pretty low. That number, I

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Speaker 2: would say that number might be fifteen or twenty million

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Speaker 2: dollars is definitely in that number, and so you can

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Speaker 2: set that number, and that would be a good time

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people to stop. I just think

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Speaker 2: it depends why you're doing it. If you are doing

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Speaker 2: it for the money, then you shouldn't get carried away

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Speaker 2: and continue to do it for the money endlessly, because

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Speaker 2: it kind of defeats the purpose of your ambition in

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Speaker 2: the first good call. Next question.

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Speaker 3: This question comes in from Body Tobin. He asks, hey, boys,

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Speaker 3: in a world increasingly driven by AI, automation and decentralized systems,

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Speaker 3: what do you believe are the most contrarian but potentially

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Speaker 3: accurate views on where true value creation will occur over

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Speaker 3: the next decade, particularly in sectors that are currently considered

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Speaker 3: saturated or declining.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say something that is totally out

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Speaker 2: of left field to this question, because I've thought about

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Speaker 2: this question a lot, because I think about it in

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Speaker 2: the context of giving advice to my kids on what

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Speaker 2: sort of careers they should pursue, and so let's talk

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Speaker 2: about things that would be probably not the greatest careers

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Speaker 2: to pursue in the age of AI. I still, I

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Speaker 2: just want to caveat this by saying AI's got some

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Speaker 2: big problems. And I'm not sure whether those problems exist

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Speaker 2: just because it's early in the AI journey or they

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Speaker 2: exist because they're fundamental to AI. They're not going to

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Speaker 2: be overcome. Like one of them is hallucinations, which I

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Speaker 2: suspect is going to be fundamental, which is just a

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Speaker 2: I'm making up stuff no matter how hard you try

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Speaker 2: to guide it not to make up stuff. But there

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Speaker 2: are some other problems with AI as well. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you look, I think this one will be overcome,

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Speaker 2: but like if you try to use chet GPT in particular,

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Speaker 2: like it's not very good at reading documents that fabricate stuff.

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Speaker 2: So let's just first say we are at peak AI,

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Speaker 2: at the moment where it feels like everything and anything

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Speaker 2: is going to be possible, and I suspect a lot

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Speaker 2: less than that will actually happen. Right, So I would

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Speaker 2: not want to be in a role that was heavily

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Speaker 2: processed driven, And so let me say that in a

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Speaker 2: way that doesn't just sound like someone on a factory floor,

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Speaker 2: because actually I think anything that involves physical activity, like

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Speaker 2: being a carpenter, like that's probably a pretty good job

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Speaker 2: that is going to have a growth in human beings

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Speaker 2: because robotics is quite a long way behind software AI.

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Speaker 2: So I think robotics anything we have to physically do

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Speaker 2: something is good. But I think like being a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: for example, and writing basic documents that's process driven, I

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Speaker 2: think that might be a problematic type of profession in

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Speaker 2: the future. Is I guess I've too many jeremy about

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Speaker 2: this last week.

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Speaker 1: I think you can argue, like ninety five and ninety

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Speaker 1: five percent of law could easily be aied. There's so

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Speaker 1: such a little vague, such a low value adding profession.

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Speaker 1: It's a tax on society. So this is a formal

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Speaker 1: lawyer that I think the world is better upright wriding

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Speaker 1: off ninety five percent of what lawyers.

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Speaker 2: Do well because lawyers are effectively saying I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: I'm I feel as strongly as that. But like I definitely,

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Speaker 2: you know, think that ninety five percent of what lawyers

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Speaker 2: do is get this thing, this document, and take some

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Speaker 2: information from here, and redo this document with that information

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Speaker 2: and then send it over there. Like I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: just workflow, and I don't think that that's especially complicated.

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Speaker 2: I think it's not just lawyers. Look, I think there's

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Speaker 2: some of the medical profession that will be replaced or

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Speaker 2: at least significantly augmented by AI. Anything you have to

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Speaker 2: look for patterns, like.

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Speaker 1: A maiology all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like when there's image diagnostics looking for patterns, like

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Speaker 2: so AI is basically like a pattern recognition engine. So

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Speaker 2: if you're looking for patterns, that's a perfect use case

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Speaker 2: for AI. But then I was thinking, so, what do

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Speaker 2: I think is not going to be replaced by A

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Speaker 2: well into anything that is built on interpersonal interactions, I

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Speaker 2: think will not be replaced by Aoso sal talked about it,

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Speaker 2: well exactly. I'm hesitant to say this, but I think

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Speaker 2: investment bankers are safe. Like I think that is basically

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Speaker 2: a relationship business, and so I think that they're safe.

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Speaker 1: Well, part of it, a lot of the junior West

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Speaker 1: bankers do is building pitch decks for example. That kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff can be quite easily or bankers. Yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 2: But then I thought, well, what really do I junior lawyers? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and what do I really think is like the most

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Speaker 2: immune from It's not really answer increasion. What do I

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Speaker 2: think is going to come back because of AI? Because

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Speaker 2: I think that's a harder question. But what do I

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Speaker 2: think might be the most immune. So this is my thought. Entertainment,

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Speaker 2: so I think that I don't no one is going

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Speaker 2: to want to watch robots play sport, and by the way,

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Speaker 2: they're kind of a long way away from being interesting

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Speaker 2: to play sport anyway. So I know, someone tried to

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Speaker 2: build a sports league that was virtual online and the

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Speaker 2: players were physical but fabricated, and so that's boring. Actors boring.

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Speaker 2: Then I thought making making entertainment, like making movies, making

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Speaker 2: video games, you might think that I could take that

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Speaker 2: over making songs, But there is some kind of special

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Speaker 2: source that we haven't been able to get anywhere near

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Speaker 2: replicating so far, and so I think that might still

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Speaker 2: be the domain of human beings. So I think entertainment

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Speaker 2: is safe.

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Speaker 1: I think of all them, songs as songs is the

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Speaker 1: most at risk. I think maybe because it's so songs

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Speaker 1: are very similar, like the way that it's like four

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Speaker 1: chords and every song or what I think songs definitely

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Speaker 1: could I'm not that clearly not there yet, but they

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Speaker 1: feel compared to acting, which I can't imagine. You can

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Speaker 1: aill guess we're saying, actually were in advertisements in AI

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Speaker 1: very realistic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's less to me about so songs, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm not a musician, and I presume it' not a musician,

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Speaker 2: So I think like songs are yeah, so songs, I

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Speaker 2: think like they're there, they might be similar, but then

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Speaker 2: not many of them become hits, and so then the

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Speaker 2: question is what have become hits? And that's a whole

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Speaker 2: other question. But I think my point with let's say

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Speaker 2: acting and sport and those types of things, it's entertainment

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Speaker 2: in general. Watching entertainment is less about could it do

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Speaker 2: it and more about the human's going to want to

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Speaker 2: watch that. And I think that there is something about

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Speaker 2: the human being performing sport for example, or the human

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Speaker 2: being acting or whatever it is that is compelling to

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Speaker 2: the viewer. And I think that's might be the safest

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Speaker 2: of all professions.

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Speaker 1: I think the one thing you've missed that I think

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Speaker 1: is the absolute safe is the people who are running

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Speaker 1: the AI so prompt engineers for example. So as again

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Speaker 1: as Scott Gallaway says, if you know how to you're

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Speaker 1: not going to lose your job to AI. I am

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Speaker 1: going to lose your job to someone who understands AI.

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Speaker 1: So I think people who can really understand how there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a huge demand for that because AI

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Speaker 1: doesn't run itself, certainly is not sentient yet, so someone

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Speaker 1: needs to be telling the AI what to do so

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Speaker 1: that those roles. So you think of in the legal profession,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be still somebody who needs to train

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Speaker 1: the AI, teach the AI, prompt the AI. It's not

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Speaker 1: going to do it by itself, so there is a

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Speaker 1: role for that.

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Speaker 2: So what we might find is that actually not many

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Speaker 2: roles get knocked out at all, and AI just becomes

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Speaker 2: another tool for people to use in their roles. And

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Speaker 2: we might all be wrong about this and there might

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Speaker 2: be like ten or fifteen percent of the world's roles

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Speaker 2: that shift to other roles, But actually the world keeps

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Speaker 2: turning largely the way it is turning with these new

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Speaker 2: terrific tools that we've got, because that's the history of

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Speaker 2: human evolution.

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Speaker 1: That's right, as in, people will lose their roles, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them will get other roles, but there's definitely

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Speaker 1: roles that will not exist. Like we only agree on that,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of jobs just will not exist, like horse

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Speaker 1: and cart drivers don't exist.

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Speaker 2: Now I know I agree, but like this is less

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Speaker 2: I think it's to me, it feels less like the

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Speaker 2: horse and cart and more like tools. And so when

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Speaker 2: as every time human beings invent better tools, it just

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Speaker 2: means we can build better stuff. It doesn't mean we

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Speaker 2: stop building stuff. And so I think it's hard to predict.

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Speaker 2: I definitely think some of the very pattern driven jobs

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Speaker 2: that exist in society would be like somewhat problematic jobs.

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Speaker 2: And I also think like data analysis, with jobs that

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Speaker 2: are based heavily on data analysis, like AI will be

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Speaker 2: doing at some point. I think, but I might be

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Speaker 2: wrong because it's pretty like it's not very good at

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Speaker 2: data analysis. Like it looks great. I saw posts it

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Speaker 2: say while you're still using xcel, you can use this

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Speaker 2: and this and this and it automates it. And then

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Speaker 2: I start using it and really try extensively. It's pretty terrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all that Twitter stuff. We'll go to a super

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Speaker 1: quick break now, background, last question really soon. You've probably

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Speaker 1: heard me say there's nothing more important to a business's

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Speaker 1: success than a great team. For nearly a decade, EFFICS

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Speaker 1: has helped more than three hundred and fifty companies from

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Speaker 1: startups to established enterprise businesses, make key exec hires, recruit

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Speaker 1: specialists and scale high performing GTM and technology teams. They

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Speaker 1: understand the unique challenges at every stage and offer flexible,

435
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: creative solutions tailored to your company's growth phase. Working as partners,

436
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437
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438
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439
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440
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441
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 1: forward Slash Contrarians to speak to Jar and the team

442
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 1: for your next critical hire and we're back mark question

443
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 1: number three.

444
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: All right, This last.

445
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,880
Speaker 3: Question for today comes from josh Kaplan again on LinkedIn.

446
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 3: Bit of a funnier one. Gooday guys, first time caller,

447
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 3: longtime listener. When is Adam going to make his long

448
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 3: awaited run for a seat on the Saint Kilda board?

449
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 3: I feel his financial prudence will come in handy to

450
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 3: deter his club from making a reckless one point seven

451
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 3: million dollar per year play for Tom dacooning so into

452
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 3: AFL world.

453
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: Adam comments and JK is a actually relative of mine,

454
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: so lifelong can't and support us, so neither has had

455
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: much success in the last twenty years. I don't want

456
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: to talk too much about this sin Kilda specific I'd

457
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: love to talk about sports clubs though. Would you go

458
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: on the board? I know two people. I know the

459
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 1: chairman and one of the guys. Your friend Michael's on

460
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 1: the board. Obviously AB's on the board. Obviously Andrew Besson's

461
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: Anthew Beast's president. Your friend Michael is on the board.

462
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: With respect, this is one of the most inept boards

463
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life. They have got and

464
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 1: this is not michaels fault because Michael's pretty new.

465
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 2: I just immediately changed my view from you can join too,

466
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: you will never be.

467
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: Invited to join, well, not with these guys, and Ab

468
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: knows my views like they've done. This is a club

469
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: that just doesn't understand competitive vantage. It's a club that

470
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: has went and this is twenty years ago. They went.

471
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: They had a home ground, they moved that home ground

472
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,439
Speaker 1: to a place called Seaford. For our non football listeners,

473
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: it was just AFL clubs are quite small, like if

474
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 1: AFL clubs have like sixty to one hundred million dollars revenue,

475
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: which is a fraction of what we do, yet they're

476
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: outsize in terms of influence on people's lives, on people's emotions.

477
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: People are obsessed with footy clubs, both AFL and Rugby

478
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: League at soccer, and these clubs have huge responsibility to

479
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: their fans and almost always they disappoint and AFL has

480
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: been there's some really great exceptions. So look at the

481
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: brilliant clubs Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorne and Collingwood probably and to

482
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 1: say clubs very well run as well, but I'm talking

483
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: about to the Victorian clubs. These clubs or Sydney's not.

484
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: But these clubs are brilliantly run, like Hawthorne and Sydney

485
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: and Gelong have had success over twenty years thirty years consistently,

486
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 1: whereas clubs like Saint Kilda and Carlton have had failures

487
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 1: over twenty years thirty years consistently. Then we didn't understand

488
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 1: why has our club been so deplorable and why do

489
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: these boards keep doing the same thing over and over

490
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 1: again thinking something different will happen.

491
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: And so would you be interested in going on the

492
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: inside and trying to fix them?

493
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think they really want me to be honest,

494
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: but I would absolutely have to run this club, and

495
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: i'd completely I'll be re orientating the club to how

496
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 1: do we build competitive vantage as we've talked about, which

497
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: to me will be playing from a home ground that

498
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: actually is a home ground, for example, And how do

499
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: you lock in supporters, how do you build switching costs?

500
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: Because these clubs do not understand competitive vantage And if

501
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: you look at people who have been incredible presidents, it's

502
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: almost all media people and they grew up in a

503
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: world of having to fight for every dollar. So Edie

504
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: MacGuire incredible at Collingwood, David Kosh incredible at Port Adelaide,

505
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: James Brayshaw saved North Melbourne with the Kangaroos. There's no

506
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: surprise that people who work in media, who understand the

507
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: difficulties of partnerships raising money, of how important supporters are

508
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: just rich business people who tend to go on boards

509
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: historically and the difference. I'm super passionate about this, and

510
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: I'm just incredibly disappointed and how badly my team has

511
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: gone and how bad he's been managed as a business person.

512
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: Well, obviously I love clubs and I hope they all

513
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: win sustaneously. But I do think you make a very

514
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 2: interesting point about sports like. You know, I've often pondered

515
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 2: this over the course of the last fifteen years, and

516
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: I changed my view on what sport is, and I

517
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: you know, initially I thought sport was just sports like

518
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: and it was about how much performance athletes executed and

519
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: so on and so forth, and we should leave athletes

520
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 2: to execute and then overtime, my view has shifted pretty

521
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: significantly to say, fundamentally, this whole industry exists only as

522
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 2: an entertainment medium, and so this is just a form

523
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: of entertainment. It's a great form of entertainment where people

524
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: feel tribal loyalty and they love it. I think it's

525
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: good for society. However, it has to be treated like

526
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: an entertainment business. And so, for example, a tennis player

527
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 2: that refuses to do press conferences, which is impossible now,

528
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: but let's say in the past they refuse to do them.

529
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: I don't think that's okay. I think that the reason

530
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: they're getting paid so well is not just because they

531
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: can play tennis well. It's because people find it tremendously entertaining,

532
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: and so they have to conform to the requirements of

533
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 2: the entertainment medium, and I think your point about media

534
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: people ties in with my view, which is like fundamentally

535
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: these entertainment businesses, it's.

536
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: One hundred percent right. It is completely entertainment and it's

537
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: a business as well, but it's a small, relatively small,

538
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: that's sort of some one hundred million revenue businesses that

539
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: don't really make much money. In Australia. Certainly US is different,

540
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: especially NFL, they're very valuable franchises.

541
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: But there is a great thing in Australia though that

542
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 2: you shouldn't overlook, which is both the AFL and the

543
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: NRL and also the rugby Unlike almost any other leagues

544
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 2: in it in the world, they pump most of their

545
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: money back into grass through sports of that sport and

546
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: feel an obligation as the custodians of the sport. It's

547
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: it's amazing and very much unusual.

548
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: I think you're I think saying most money isn't right.

549
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: I definitely pump some money. A lot of money is

550
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: siphoned off by executives.

551
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: Well I've said this in the wrong way. Most of

552
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: the money that gets pumped into grassroots sport of those

553
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: sports comes from the major leagues who see themselves as

554
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 2: the custodians. It's very unusual globally, very unusual AFL does

555
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: a fantasy job when I was kicking and all that

556
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. That's it's definitely right. Yeah, But I

557
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: think that's the fundamental shift is to think about these

558
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: as entertainment businesses. And I'll tell you a little tidbit

559
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: before we go. One of the reasons, you know, the

560
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: entertainment businesses, and I think one of the reasons that

561
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: Catapult has had a good run with these teams is

562
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: the number one determinant I won't said the number one.

563
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: One of the key determinants, very statistically significant of how

564
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: many people watch a game is how many of the

565
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: great players are on the field or on the court.

566
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 2: And so if you can make sure that your best

567
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: players are on the field or on the court, then

568
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: way more fans are going to watch that game. And

569
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: that is why injuries are so consequential, not just to

570
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: the teams that are playing, but to the overall success

571
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: of the league and its media outcomes.

572
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: Totally great, Thanks JK. Great question. Actually all my questions

573
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: say were fantastic. Thank you, Mike, thank you. I dear

574
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: another fantastic episode. We'll see everybody on Tuesday, and I do,

575
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: how can you check your life.

576
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: Trauma or TPD insurance? I would say I never check it,

577
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: and I'm quite neglectful with that altogether.

578
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: I don't blame you. I think I check mine. For

579
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: about ten years, I just kept paying more and more

580
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: every year and it's got like ridiculous.

581
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I mean people

582
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: approach me about life insurance periodically and I kind of

583
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 2: just fob them off and really don't pay any attention

584
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: to it. I wouldn't even know where to pay attention.

585
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: Actually I have it, but I was so slack I

586
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: kept paying it year on year. And I've got a

587
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: whold of the team from Safety Nest and I'm furious

588
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: for not doing this sooner. Why so, the Safety Nest

589
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: team did a complete check of all my different policies

590
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: life trauma TPD and they literally in a few hours

591
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: able to restructure my policies and remove allays unnecessary stuff

592
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: I was paying for did in need and actually say

593
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a year.

594
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 2: Oh my god, is that there is nobody that will

595
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: be more frustrated about wasting money than you think of

596
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: all of the things that you can spend it on,

597
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: I mean literally no food or drink.

598
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: Well, it's beitter sweet because I love saving money, but

599
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: I hate the fact I wasn't saving money for Chener.

600
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: Yes so, and it's just the cash saving. The Safety

601
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Speaker 1: and Nest team also recommended different cover up for our kids,

602
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Speaker 1: so I didn't realize you get kid insurance as well.

603
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Speaker 1: Just gives you extra peace of mind. The last thing

604
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605
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Speaker 1: in a really tough position if God forbid, something terrible happens,

606
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607
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608
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610
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611
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612
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