1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,360 S1: Miki Ahuja catapulted his company, Emaar Services Group, from nothing 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,480 S1: to the big time to become the security provider of 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:17,160 S1: choice to the federal government. Retail giants like Coles and Bunnings, 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,200 S1: and a major sponsor of AFL clubs. But his empire 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,880 S1: was a house of cards. I'm Matt Dunkley, filling in 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,640 S1: for Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,080 S1: from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald today. Nick 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,360 S1: McKenzie on one of the more spectacular and in some 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:44,519 S1: ways disturbing, corporate unravelling in recent memory. It's Monday, March 9th. 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,040 S1: All right, Nick, to start, obviously you've been reporting on 11 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,920 S1: Emaar Group for a long time along with Sam Houston, 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,720 S1: and it's come a long way from there where now 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,880 S1: we're looking at things like massive breaches of labor and 14 00:01:00,980 --> 00:01:04,979 S1: tax laws. There are allegations of sexual crimes against the founder. 15 00:01:05,420 --> 00:01:07,819 S1: But before we get to that, I think we would 16 00:01:07,819 --> 00:01:09,300 S1: love to hear from you a bit about what does 17 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:12,580 S1: the company do? What is it that this organization is offering? 18 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:16,020 S2: I guarantee you, every person listening to this podcast will 19 00:01:16,020 --> 00:01:19,060 S2: have walked past an May services security guard or cleaner 20 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:23,539 S2: outside a Coles, a Kmart, a Bunnings or the guards 21 00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:27,380 S2: from May. Services were at Moomba. They were at universities 22 00:01:27,380 --> 00:01:30,340 S2: in Sydney, grammar schools in Victoria. They work for the 23 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:35,300 S2: federal government, the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission. May security guards were, 24 00:01:35,580 --> 00:01:39,340 S2: in short, everywhere. One of the biggest security companies in Australia, 25 00:01:39,340 --> 00:01:43,500 S2: one of the fastest growing. And as our investigation has revealed, 26 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:45,900 S2: now one of the most corrupt. 27 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:49,780 S1: Where the story started was in a public sense anyway, 28 00:01:49,820 --> 00:01:53,740 S1: was on their links between bikies and government contracts. What 29 00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:55,860 S1: did you find? What lit the fuse on this story 30 00:01:55,900 --> 00:01:56,980 S1: and why did that matter? 31 00:01:57,220 --> 00:02:00,140 S2: I mean, the start of the story is a bit nuts, 32 00:02:00,140 --> 00:02:03,670 S2: which I think for me, uh, really highlights just how 33 00:02:03,670 --> 00:02:06,910 S2: crazy the whole Ma scandal is. So how did it start? 34 00:02:07,390 --> 00:02:10,109 S2: We find out that the things a bikie gang. So 35 00:02:10,150 --> 00:02:14,390 S2: an outlaw motorcycle gang is somehow through a subcontract providing 36 00:02:14,389 --> 00:02:18,829 S2: security guards in a big offshore security deal ultimately funded 37 00:02:18,830 --> 00:02:23,070 S2: by the Albanese government. How the hell are bikies doing this? 38 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:26,750 S2: Turns out the company that won that security deal was, 39 00:02:26,750 --> 00:02:31,030 S2: in fact, despite all these layers of corporate obfuscation, was 40 00:02:31,030 --> 00:02:34,630 S2: in fact Ma services run by Miki Ahuja. So unpacking 41 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:39,310 S2: that Ma services, big security player in the private security industry, 42 00:02:39,750 --> 00:02:43,709 S2: uses its contacts to convince the Nauru government to hire 43 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:48,030 S2: it to secure provide security for Australian immigration services on Nauru, 44 00:02:48,030 --> 00:02:51,150 S2: funded by the Albanese government, and then Ma services to 45 00:02:51,190 --> 00:02:55,190 S2: carry out this task works with a company controlled by 46 00:02:55,230 --> 00:02:58,430 S2: none other than the global head of the Finks outlaw 47 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:03,609 S2: motorcycle gang, a fearsome criminal called Ali Bilal. What that 48 00:03:03,610 --> 00:03:06,290 S2: gave us an insight into is, well, Emaar Services on 49 00:03:06,330 --> 00:03:11,450 S2: the surface, looks like this incredibly professional rising star of 50 00:03:11,450 --> 00:03:15,169 S2: the business world. Mickey Ahuja was an entrepreneur of the year. 51 00:03:15,169 --> 00:03:18,050 S2: I think on a couple of occasions he was rubbing 52 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:23,290 S2: shoulders with corporate titans. He was sponsoring AFL clubs. He'd 53 00:03:23,330 --> 00:03:26,370 S2: struck a deal to have the Emaar Services logo plastered 54 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:28,650 S2: on the jumper of the Melbourne Football Club, the demons, 55 00:03:28,970 --> 00:03:31,530 S2: this very season. They would have been running out this 56 00:03:31,530 --> 00:03:35,050 S2: week with Emaar Services plastered on their on their jumper. 57 00:03:35,050 --> 00:03:39,450 S2: But beneath that glistening facade was a company that actually 58 00:03:39,450 --> 00:03:43,890 S2: operated allegedly with a vast amount of criminality. So not 59 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:48,490 S2: just working with bikie linked companies, but exploiting its workers, 60 00:03:48,490 --> 00:03:52,090 S2: not paying them properly, mostly foreign workers. These are thousands 61 00:03:52,090 --> 00:03:56,810 S2: of security guards who were routinely ripped off, underpaid the award, 62 00:03:56,970 --> 00:04:00,730 S2: not paid superannuation or very little. Not paid annual leave 63 00:04:00,730 --> 00:04:04,950 S2: or overtime. The reason why Ma was booming as a 64 00:04:04,950 --> 00:04:08,910 S2: security company. The reason why Coles, Kmart, Bunnings was lining 65 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:11,510 S2: up to do business with Ma services was because they 66 00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:14,310 S2: were cheaper. Now, of course, the more we pull that thread, 67 00:04:14,350 --> 00:04:17,510 S2: the more we find out about the CEO. He's not 68 00:04:17,510 --> 00:04:20,070 S2: just ripping off his own workers. He's not just living 69 00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:22,950 S2: the high life. He's not just not paying his taxes 70 00:04:23,470 --> 00:04:25,909 S2: to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. He's 71 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:31,989 S2: also harassing, bullying, and most seriously, allegedly raping female employees. 72 00:04:32,750 --> 00:04:36,230 S1: And that's where this weekend's reporting really kicked in. But 73 00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:38,029 S1: I would like to just come back, bring you back 74 00:04:38,029 --> 00:04:41,029 S1: to the reporting through the second half of last year, 75 00:04:41,470 --> 00:04:43,670 S1: because you did manage to lay out quite a few 76 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:47,710 S1: of those things and start to really pull that company 77 00:04:47,710 --> 00:04:50,510 S1: at its edges until it went down just before Christmas. 78 00:04:51,150 --> 00:04:54,950 S1: What was the response, do you think, from government and 79 00:04:54,950 --> 00:04:57,510 S1: from its corporate clients and those kinds of people who 80 00:04:57,510 --> 00:05:00,950 S1: were paying the bills here, who had lifted this company up? 81 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,280 S1: How did they respond when you started doing that reporting? 82 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,279 S2: Initially, I think the response was probably behind the scenes 83 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,360 S2: panic and then very careful corporate and government spinning. So 84 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:18,280 S2: almost to a person, those companies said and the government agencies, 85 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,520 S2: the federal Department of Parliamentary Services, there was the Australian 86 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,640 S2: Criminal Intelligence Commission, there was even the National Anti-Corruption Commission. 87 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,760 S2: We had Coles, Kmart, Bunnings, Amazon, uh, AFL, AFL, clubs, 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,040 S2: the list goes on. Uh, he was uh Ahuja and 89 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,280 S2: Ma services supplying security to the Melbourne Cup, the spring carnival. 90 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,760 S2: He'd won the contract to secure this weekend's Formula one 91 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,080 S2: Grand Prix. And on it goes. So all these companies 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,240 S2: react with panic and initially saying we, of course, as 93 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,880 S2: you would expect them to say, support the lawful treatment 94 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,360 S2: of workers, the proper payment of tax. And we want 95 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,440 S2: our subcontractors beat May or anybody else to not be 96 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,020 S2: breaking the law and exploiting workers. That was the holding 97 00:06:04,020 --> 00:06:06,900 S2: position of of most of the customers. Then we start 98 00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:08,780 S2: asking the question, well, how is it if we can 99 00:06:08,779 --> 00:06:12,580 S2: figure it out that you can't? Now Coles, with all 100 00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:16,460 S2: its many billions of resources, somehow could not figure out 101 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:19,260 S2: what in some respects was glaringly obvious. It was an 102 00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:22,060 S2: open secret in the private security industry that Miki Ahuja 103 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:27,700 S2: and Ma services was involved in the systemic exploitation of workers. 104 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:31,460 S2: It was known that he ran a network of companies 105 00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:36,620 S2: linked to what looked like very suspect phoenixing, which is 106 00:06:36,620 --> 00:06:39,180 S2: potentially criminal behaviour. These are companies that are collapsing as 107 00:06:39,180 --> 00:06:41,940 S2: soon as their tax or worker debts arise, and they 108 00:06:42,180 --> 00:06:45,740 S2: re-emerge in a as a fresh entity. This sort of 109 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:49,180 S2: stuff was pretty well known in the private security industry. 110 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:52,100 S2: We found it out. Why didn't Coles and really, why 111 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,180 S2: didn't the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, which was also paying 112 00:06:55,460 --> 00:06:58,419 S2: Ma services, big bucks to secure its premises? 113 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:01,800 S1: So let's talk about Miki's response when you started laying 114 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,160 S1: out all these allegations, started going to all of his 115 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,880 S1: big customers, started making these very damaging claims and reporting 116 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,040 S1: out some of the details that clearly would not like 117 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,720 S1: to be public about the involvement of bikies and all 118 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,680 S1: this other stuff. What was his response to us? 119 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,280 S2: I might start with his most recent response through his spokesperson. 120 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,560 S2: He's fled the Guptas in Dubai. He's, uh, he's offshore. 121 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,280 S2: I've put fresh questions to him. And the response yesterday was, 122 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,679 S2: May you fear God. Now, I'm not quite sure what 123 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:37,560 S2: that means, but his general tactic has been deny, dismiss, delay. 124 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,800 S2: You know, the great tactic of any corporate spinner working 125 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,680 S2: for a crook. Miki Ahuja we've caught him lying a 126 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,840 S2: number of times. So, for instance, he really tried to 127 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,000 S2: deny he was involved in this deal with the Finks 128 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,840 S2: outlaw bikie gang to supply security guards paid for by ultimately, 129 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,400 S2: the Aussie taxpayer offshore. Then we find the paperwork which 130 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,520 S2: lays bears his lies, and so suddenly he pivots and 131 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,770 S2: tries a new lie he's denied and attacked. Sometimes behind 132 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:08,370 S2: the scenes, those women who've been brave enough to call 133 00:08:08,370 --> 00:08:12,010 S2: him out for sexual harassment or even alleged rape. So 134 00:08:12,050 --> 00:08:14,450 S2: another PR tactic then, which is to go on the 135 00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:19,930 S2: attack at all times. He's been spinning, obfuscating and hoping 136 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,610 S2: he could sit this one out. Late last year, as 137 00:08:22,610 --> 00:08:27,690 S2: the revelations continued to mount, he stood aside as the 138 00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:32,290 S2: CEO of Ma services, a tactic clearly designed to hope 139 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:35,450 S2: the scandal would move on and we'd lose interest. Of course, 140 00:08:35,450 --> 00:08:38,410 S2: that did not happen because it's not just the investigative 141 00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:40,449 S2: team of The Age and Sydney Morning Herald and 60 142 00:08:40,450 --> 00:08:43,050 S2: minutes on his case. It's the tax office. It's the 143 00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:47,329 S2: Labour high authority. It's potentially other agencies. In fact, we've 144 00:08:47,330 --> 00:08:51,890 S2: revealed that a multi-agency operation, Operation Hermes, is now hot 145 00:08:51,970 --> 00:08:55,890 S2: on the tail of Miki Ahuja. Now, ultimately, his company 146 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:59,410 S2: was placed into administration at the end of last year, 147 00:08:59,450 --> 00:09:04,069 S2: Christmas Eve. The company effectively collapses. Overnight, 1700 workers are 148 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:07,150 S2: out of work, many of them loyal Ma security guards, 149 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:09,910 S2: many of them underpaid. Many of them still to this 150 00:09:09,910 --> 00:09:13,310 S2: day owed many thousands of dollars in superannuation and pay. 151 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:15,550 S1: Can we talk about those workers for a second? Because 152 00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:17,790 S1: you have spoken to a lot of them. And in 153 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:21,710 S1: many ways, this story boils down to his treatment of 154 00:09:21,710 --> 00:09:24,470 S1: them and mistreatment of them. What do they tell you 155 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:26,110 S1: about what it was like to work for Ma? 156 00:09:26,630 --> 00:09:29,510 S2: Well, as Mickey was betting in the high roller room 157 00:09:29,550 --> 00:09:33,030 S2: of Crown Casino, sometimes with chips worth $100,000 each, as 158 00:09:33,030 --> 00:09:36,110 S2: he was flying around the world flying first class as 159 00:09:36,110 --> 00:09:40,270 S2: he was driving his his, uh, many luxury vehicles, including 160 00:09:40,270 --> 00:09:47,070 S2: a Lamborghini. These workers, his workers were sometimes barely struggling 161 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:49,310 S2: to survive living below the poverty line. They were getting 162 00:09:49,309 --> 00:09:54,630 S2: paid by a regulator's estimation at $10 below the award 163 00:09:54,630 --> 00:09:57,150 S2: on a standard day. That would be up to $60 164 00:09:57,150 --> 00:10:00,430 S2: below the award on, say, a Sunday or a public holiday. 165 00:10:00,550 --> 00:10:04,330 S2: They weren't paid superannuation. A worker I met, a tremendously 166 00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:08,450 S2: brave Pakistani had told me it was embarrassing for him 167 00:10:08,690 --> 00:10:10,530 S2: to talk to his kids because he didn't know whether 168 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:14,490 S2: he could put food on their table. These are Australians 169 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:17,770 S2: providing a critical service. Yes, of course they're migrant workers, 170 00:10:17,770 --> 00:10:21,650 S2: but they're Australian migrant workers providing a critical service, keeping 171 00:10:21,650 --> 00:10:25,250 S2: us all safe. Outside a Coles store, when we go 172 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:27,570 S2: to a major sporting event, when we go to the 173 00:10:27,570 --> 00:10:30,969 S2: Melbourne Cup, when we attend our university, and to put 174 00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:34,250 S2: it bluntly, they were being treated like not just second 175 00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:37,010 S2: class citizens. They were being treated like dirt. Now who 176 00:10:37,010 --> 00:10:39,609 S2: was pocketing the money that should have gone into their pockets? 177 00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:42,290 S2: Of course it was those that are part of what's 178 00:10:42,330 --> 00:10:45,850 S2: now known by law enforcement as the Ma syndicate. Miki 179 00:10:45,890 --> 00:10:49,890 S2: Ahuja and his other lieutenants. They were getting filthy rich. 180 00:10:49,929 --> 00:10:52,250 S2: While some of the poorest and most vulnerable workers in 181 00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:56,010 S2: this country were struggling to make it day by day. 182 00:10:59,850 --> 00:11:00,730 S1: After the break. 183 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:04,980 S2: Is at the heart of this mega scandal is many 184 00:11:04,980 --> 00:11:09,740 S2: brave women who were bullied, who were sexually harassed by 185 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:14,380 S2: Mickey Ahuja. And it was the bravery of these women which, 186 00:11:14,420 --> 00:11:17,860 S2: more than any other aspect of this scandal, blew this 187 00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:18,620 S2: scandal up. 188 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,140 S1: One of the best parts of the investigation on the 189 00:11:28,140 --> 00:11:31,660 S1: weekend was a very rare interview with the Labour hire 190 00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:35,620 S1: authority boss, who said that the situation you've just described 191 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:38,699 S1: is the conditions that those workers were working in at 192 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:42,260 S1: some of our biggest events and companies. He gave very 193 00:11:42,260 --> 00:11:45,060 S1: short shrift to the idea that the companies who were 194 00:11:45,059 --> 00:11:47,340 S1: doing the paying didn't know, didn't he? 195 00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:51,459 S2: It's an extraordinary intervention by Steve Dargavel. He is the 196 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:55,460 S2: labour hire licensing commissioner and he heads the regulator in Victoria, 197 00:11:55,460 --> 00:11:59,140 S2: the labour hire authority. Basically, he's responsible for making sure 198 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:03,280 S2: that any business that supplies workers to major infrastructure projects, 199 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:08,600 S2: to supermarkets, security workers, cleaners, agriculture workers out on fruit farms, 200 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,360 S2: whatever it might be that those workers aren't subjected to exploitation, 201 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,400 S2: especially mass exploitation. He's there at its height to stop 202 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,360 S2: human slavery. He very rarely speaks out. In fact, I 203 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,839 S2: don't know any television interviews or major newspaper interviews he's 204 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,079 S2: ever done, but he went public for us. And why? 205 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,440 S2: It's his contention not only that, Ma services has utterly 206 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,800 S2: and systematically and disgracefully rorted many thousands of Australian workers, 207 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,240 S2: but that its major clients, or some of them led 208 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,079 S2: by Coles, but including Kmart and Bunnings, that these companies 209 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,760 S2: must have known about this rort. Now, what Dargavel says 210 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,200 S2: is that the contracts that say Coles signed with Emaar, 211 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,560 S2: when you do the maths on those contracts, when you 212 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,160 S2: look at what was being paid for those security guards, 213 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,120 S2: it had to be that those guards were getting paid 214 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,730 S2: under the award. Steve Dargavel the agency has estimated or 215 00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:08,890 S2: calculated that underpayment at least $10 under the award. That's 216 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:10,929 S2: a huge rort when you think about the number or 217 00:13:10,929 --> 00:13:14,250 S2: the many thousands of guards that were working for Ma 218 00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:17,130 S2: at coal stores across a long period of time, these 219 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:20,770 S2: are contracts worth $50 million a year in revenue to Ma. 220 00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:22,890 S2: So at the heart of the scandal is not just 221 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:26,449 S2: the underpayment of many of our most vulnerable workers in Australia. 222 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:30,970 S2: It's the connivance of Coles. And to put it in 223 00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:34,569 S2: Steve Dargavel words, he says corporates like Coles, the way 224 00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:38,610 S2: they handled these contracts, they have the morals of an 225 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:39,330 S2: alley cat. 226 00:13:39,490 --> 00:13:42,130 S1: What did you make of Coles response? It seemed to 227 00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:44,370 S1: me that they were just arguing that they had asked 228 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:47,290 S1: the question, that the company had come back and said, no, no, 229 00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:50,449 S1: we're playing the right rate, we're doing the right thing. 230 00:13:50,450 --> 00:13:52,610 S1: And that seemed to be good enough for Coles. What 231 00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:53,490 S1: do you think of that? 232 00:13:53,890 --> 00:13:57,290 S2: Coles has vociferously denied that it knew that this large 233 00:13:57,290 --> 00:14:00,530 S2: scale rorting was going on. It's now turned its attack 234 00:14:00,530 --> 00:14:03,790 S2: onto Ma services, saying it was duped. Ma the crooks. 235 00:14:04,070 --> 00:14:07,470 S2: Its scheme, in Cole's words, was misleading and sophisticated. That 236 00:14:07,470 --> 00:14:10,030 S2: is the scheme by which it underpaid its security guards 237 00:14:10,030 --> 00:14:13,310 S2: at Coles stores, and Coles did not have the ability 238 00:14:13,309 --> 00:14:16,429 S2: to find that out. That does not really pass the 239 00:14:16,429 --> 00:14:19,550 S2: stress test. If we as journalists can find it out 240 00:14:19,550 --> 00:14:22,230 S2: and we're not actually employing these guards, how earth could 241 00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:24,590 S2: Coles not have? Let me give you one example. A 242 00:14:24,590 --> 00:14:27,910 S2: basic ASIC search, a corporate search, very easily done of 243 00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:31,310 S2: Miki Ahuja, the supplier of these guards to Coles would 244 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:33,870 S2: have revealed that, for instance, in 2013, he started a 245 00:14:33,870 --> 00:14:36,830 S2: company which he directed for a number of years to 246 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:43,510 S2: supply sex workers escorts across Melbourne. Its name Sin City Escorts. 247 00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:46,830 S2: A red flag that maybe Mickey Ahuja wasn't the corporate 248 00:14:46,830 --> 00:14:51,310 S2: partner that Coles would wish to do business with. There 249 00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:54,430 S2: are many other red flags. There were many court cases, 250 00:14:54,430 --> 00:15:00,230 S2: easily accessible publicly where Ma services guards had been ripped off, 251 00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:03,930 S2: not properly paid, or judges or tribunals made very stern 252 00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:08,290 S2: or damning comments about Ma services operations. There were regulator 253 00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:12,250 S2: findings that were posted online, raising very grave concerns about 254 00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:15,450 S2: Ma services and its conduct. There was the general knowledge 255 00:15:15,450 --> 00:15:18,730 S2: in the private security industry that Ma services had grown 256 00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:23,250 S2: so quickly because it was rorting, exploiting some of the 257 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:26,010 S2: lowest paid workers in the country. And then, of course, 258 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:28,050 S2: the devil's in the detail in these contracts that Coles 259 00:15:28,050 --> 00:15:30,930 S2: and other corporates were signing with Ma in those contracts. 260 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:34,170 S2: It should have been clear. According to those in officialdom, 261 00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:36,530 S2: the regulators that have looked at these contracts, it should 262 00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:38,970 S2: have been clear that there was a rort going on. 263 00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:43,650 S2: Added to that, other corporates had sacked Ma services from 264 00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:47,450 S2: their companies years ago because they said it was obvious 265 00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:49,850 S2: that Ma services was up to no good. Ma services 266 00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:54,530 S2: had been named openly in state parliament as potentially crooked company. 267 00:15:54,770 --> 00:15:57,210 S2: So how could Coles not have known? 268 00:15:57,250 --> 00:16:01,690 S1: If I could turn now to the very troubling thread 269 00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:04,180 S1: in this story, I think, which is more about Mickey, 270 00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:08,740 S1: who does treatment of women, senior women who worked for him. 271 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,700 S1: It's very tough watching the interviews with those very brave women. 272 00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:17,020 S1: Could you talk to me a bit about how that 273 00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,940 S1: thread of the story came into being and what that's 274 00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:21,380 S1: been like, just trying to report it? 275 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:24,020 S2: I think the reason this story is so significant is 276 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:28,660 S2: not just a story about mass worker exploitation on a 277 00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:31,100 S2: stunning scale. It's not just a story about corporate greed, 278 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:35,540 S2: not that which extends beyond Ma to allegedly to big 279 00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:39,660 S2: corporates like Kohl's. It's not just a story about tax 280 00:16:39,660 --> 00:16:43,980 S2: evasion and government agencies not doing their due diligence. It's 281 00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:46,820 S2: not just a story about how bad our private security 282 00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:50,740 S2: industry is in Australia, because Ma is just one of 283 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:54,500 S2: a number of companies doing the wrong thing. It's also 284 00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:57,620 S2: a me too story because at the heart of this 285 00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:02,520 S2: mega scandal is many brave women who were bullied, who 286 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,080 S2: were sexually harassed by Miki Ahuja. And it was the 287 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,400 S2: bravery of these women which, more than any other aspect 288 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,080 S2: of this scandal, blew this scandal up. When one of 289 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,640 S2: the first victims came forward to me and revealed how 290 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,840 S2: Miki Ahuja had demanded sex for money in a very 291 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,480 S2: sexually harassing and and frankly disgusting manner, how that had 292 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,280 S2: made her feel like a piece of meat, his demands 293 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,640 S2: that she sleep with him in return for money, which 294 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,240 S2: he did not do when she had the bravery to 295 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,479 S2: reveal those approaches, those repeated approaches by him publicly. Suddenly, 296 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,480 S2: the corporate world, the government agencies that were working with 297 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,600 S2: my services, could no longer delay their response, and many 298 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,600 S2: of them almost immediately began to cut ties to sack 299 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,480 S2: my services. But now we know many more stories from women, 300 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,960 S2: including one very brave woman who's gone public with The age, 301 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,280 S2: the Sydney Morning Herald in 60 minutes. We're calling her Sara. 302 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,040 S2: She worked at Mar services. She's on camera. And her 303 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,260 S2: description of confronting not only this, the just awful treatment 304 00:18:05,260 --> 00:18:08,260 S2: of workers by Emma. Some of those workers she was 305 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:11,780 S2: ferrying around milk and nappies to. These are poor security 306 00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:14,380 S2: guards who were getting utterly ripped off. But her own 307 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:18,899 S2: treatment at the hands of Mickey Ahuja. Her experience of suffering, allegedly, 308 00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:24,340 S2: in her words, a rape, being assaulted awfully by Mickey Ahuja. 309 00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:27,220 S2: And it must be said she is not alone. And 310 00:18:27,220 --> 00:18:30,460 S2: there are other allegations that are really graphic and really 311 00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:34,620 S2: terrible involving other cases, perhaps not of rape, but certainly 312 00:18:34,619 --> 00:18:38,180 S2: of egregious sexual misconduct or sexual harassment that have also 313 00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:40,780 S2: been passed to us, which we are now investigating. But 314 00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:43,900 S2: it's those brave women that broke. I think this scandal 315 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:47,100 S2: truly open. And as those brave women who should be 316 00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:48,100 S2: utterly commended. 317 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:50,820 S1: What do you think happens next for them? What do 318 00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:52,899 S1: they want out of this process? Out of out of 319 00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:56,100 S1: talking to us, out of, out of telling their story, 320 00:18:56,420 --> 00:18:59,740 S1: which I can't fathom how difficult that was. But what 321 00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:01,419 S1: do they want to come out of this? 322 00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:04,790 S2: Like all the victims of Ma services of the Ma 323 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:08,149 S2: Syndicate of Mickey Ahuja, be they victims of alleged rape, 324 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:11,030 S2: victims of alleged sexual harassment, be they many of the 325 00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:15,350 S2: thousands of guards that were underpaid or not paid superannuation, 326 00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:19,470 S2: not given sick leave or annual leave as required under 327 00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:23,390 S2: the law. Like all these victims, they want justice. And 328 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:26,270 S2: what is that? That's accountability. That is Mickey Ahuja facing 329 00:19:26,270 --> 00:19:29,790 S2: the music now. He scurried off to Dubai as his 330 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:33,910 S2: company was collapsing. There is an administrator hot on his tail. 331 00:19:34,109 --> 00:19:36,950 S2: It's traced many millions of dollars into his personal accounts 332 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:40,830 S2: or those of related party companies. So there is a 333 00:19:40,869 --> 00:19:44,310 S2: process there, but that only goes so far. We do 334 00:19:44,350 --> 00:19:50,470 S2: know that law enforcement Operation Hermes is also pursuing Mickey Ahuja. 335 00:19:50,590 --> 00:19:54,830 S2: But ultimately, I think justice looks like Mickey Ahuja in 336 00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:58,230 S2: one way or another, actually facing his accusers through some 337 00:19:58,270 --> 00:20:02,290 S2: sort of process of accountability, facing the music and allowing 338 00:20:02,290 --> 00:20:05,170 S2: them properly to have their day, allowing those workers who've 339 00:20:05,170 --> 00:20:08,609 S2: been ripped off to be repaid and allowing those victims, 340 00:20:08,609 --> 00:20:10,730 S2: if they want to pursue Mickey Ahuja through the civil 341 00:20:10,730 --> 00:20:13,290 S2: or criminal justice systems, if they want to sue him, 342 00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:17,609 S2: whatever it may be, allowing they to have their moment 343 00:20:17,609 --> 00:20:21,129 S2: of justice and to help them bring a very awful 344 00:20:21,130 --> 00:20:23,129 S2: chapter in their lives to some sort of close. 345 00:20:23,609 --> 00:20:26,010 S1: It's an incredible story. When you think back over all 346 00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:28,410 S1: of the things that you've just told us about about 347 00:20:28,410 --> 00:20:32,250 S1: where it started with bikies, with Nauru, with massive corporates, 348 00:20:32,250 --> 00:20:36,530 S1: with huge underpayment, with a company collapsing now with this 349 00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:40,010 S1: pretty terrible allegations against the founder. When you look back 350 00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:43,850 S1: over all that, where do you think this fits? Where 351 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:48,330 S1: does Ma sit and why does its conduct matter so much? 352 00:20:48,369 --> 00:20:51,250 S1: What should this say to Australians and our policy makers? 353 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:57,890 S2: This is a really tremendous and awful reminder ultimately for governments, 354 00:20:57,890 --> 00:21:01,330 S2: but for private industry, for the corporate world, for all 355 00:21:01,330 --> 00:21:04,470 S2: our listeners and for the general public that we still 356 00:21:04,830 --> 00:21:08,469 S2: have in Australia, a system of corporate oversight that doesn't 357 00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:12,830 S2: really work, that corporate greed trumps all else, that you 358 00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:16,149 S2: can still get away many years after major scandals, major 359 00:21:16,150 --> 00:21:19,630 S2: underpayment scandals, that you can still get away with underpaying 360 00:21:19,670 --> 00:21:24,070 S2: thousands of very vulnerable migrant workers in this country with 361 00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:26,270 S2: almost relative impunity. 362 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:28,149 S1: And in plain sight. Right. Like he's not like he 363 00:21:28,150 --> 00:21:32,590 S1: was a low profile guy. His Instagram is full of ostentation. 364 00:21:32,869 --> 00:21:35,710 S1: He's sitting there in a Collingwood team photo. He's putting 365 00:21:35,710 --> 00:21:38,590 S1: himself right out there in the public eye. Wasn't trying 366 00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:39,709 S1: to fly low at all. 367 00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:42,230 S2: That's right. You can do the wrong thing as a 368 00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:46,109 S2: corporate player, a big corporate player like Ma services, the 369 00:21:46,109 --> 00:21:48,230 S2: rest of the corporate world will turn a blind eye. 370 00:21:48,830 --> 00:21:52,429 S2: Law enforcement are regulators. There are some terrific characters out 371 00:21:52,430 --> 00:21:54,670 S2: there doing their best. The labor high authority of Victoria 372 00:21:54,670 --> 00:21:59,389 S2: is certainly one of them, but largely across the board. Regulators, 373 00:21:59,390 --> 00:22:03,600 S2: law enforcement act too slowly, if at all. Money trumps all. 374 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,360 S2: Corporate power is what matters, and you do the wrong thing. 375 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,280 S2: You'll get away with it. That seems to be, unfortunately, 376 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,720 S2: the moral of this story. But we wait and we watch. 377 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,880 S2: Maybe Mickey Ahuja will move from a case study in 378 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,720 S2: impunity to a case study in accountability. And I think 379 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,240 S2: that's what all these victims are hoping for. 380 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,919 S1: I certainly hope that's right. Thanks very much for joining us, Nick. 381 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,440 S2: Great to be with you. 382 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,840 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 383 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,879 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 384 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,879 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 385 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,560 S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 386 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,800 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.