WEBVTT - Why ghosts exist; A scientist explains 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:03.520 Nine podcasts. 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:08.160 Now, I don't think I've gone a bit silly here, 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:13.280 but I'll talk about ghosts, things supernatural, out of body experiences, 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:18.160 people coming back from the dead, consciousness beyond the body. Now, 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.080 the media cliche says I should be playing spooky music here, 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.560 or even the Ghostbusters theme, but I think that is 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.040 an annoying cliche. Of course the skepticism about this topic. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.840 Poles show that as many as twenty percent of people 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.200 say they've seen a ghost, but almost half the population, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.360 according to Saint Pole, are willing to believe ghosts exist. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:45.040 So those silly music tricks, in my view, demean my guest. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.920 He's a neuroscientist, a parapsychologist. He was president of the 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:55.000 Australian Institute of Parapsychological Research. He teaches at Swinburne University. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.680 He has analyzed many reported sightings of things that can't 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.120 be explained. He's sent a few things himself that can't 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.760 be explained. Dr Vladimir Dubai, thank you for coming to 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.280 see us. Thank you. I've done a snappole of my 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.400 cynical work, colleagues, and as you'd well know, there's nobody 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.039 more cynical and media people, and I thought they'd be 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.880 mocking me for talking to you and for even exploring 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.399 the area. I was surprised to him, and you went 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.440 quiet and said, I'm not really sure what's going on there. 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.600 I'm not really sure what's happening. We have a look 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.200 at a few cases that have been raised, and then 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:31.960 I'd like to get into some of your own detail 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.080 and everything. One of our staff, the head of football, Luca, 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.800 describes a case he's working the Carlton Footy Club nine 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.759 years ago at night, late at night, He's walked down 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.160 to the player's gym, which works. The lights in the 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.240 gym work on a sensor light and it starts. There's 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.960 nobody in there. He walks in, lights come on just 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.080 in time to see a man he describes as wearing 0:01:55.120 --> 0:02:00.240 a trench coat and a hat disappearing through a walk. Says, 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.960 I thought I'd be frightened, but I was calm when 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.080 it happened. What would you do about that? 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.400 I'd probably turn around and walk out the other way. Yeah, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:13.000 it is surprising how common these things are reported, and 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:18.120 a lot of the time the person just it's definitely 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.639 clearly unnatural or unexplainable, but it feels normal. So you're 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.280 just seeing something occur and you're kind of still processing 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:25.839 it in your mind. 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:27.720 So he's not frightened at all. He's just as the 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:28.639 guy walks through the wall. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.840 I think when it turns frightening is if it's in 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.079 your own home home, because I got a lot of 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.120 people approaching me saying something in the house and it's 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.920 really affecting their ability to sleep, and you know, just 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.280 live live in the property. But yeah, and certainly in 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.720 that case, there have been lots of reports of ghosts 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.000 or entities that seem to keep executing their own little 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.000 paths after they've deceased. So even if even if the 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.960 building changes, for example, doors are no longer where they 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.959 should be, they put a wall in its place, the 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:02.760 figure will still kind of walk through the wall. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.280 So what would you do if you wanted to investigate 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.840 this case? Where would you start? How would you do it? 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.120 Well? When I started, I went into it with a 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.280 mindset of we're assuming something's occurring. There's enough people discussing 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.680 the phenomena, so let's assume something is occurring that we 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.840 don't fully understand. To do that, we need to understand 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:29.320 or get an idea of how it physically interacts with 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.840 the physical world. So in terms of physics, how does 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.040 it manifest itself on a level where we can see it, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.400 we can feel that, we can feel the temperature changes 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.800 and so on. So the idea is, let's go to 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.080 the location where there's a lot of activity occurring and 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.200 flooded with as much equipment as possible. That is, look 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.839 at as much of the energy spectrum as we can. 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.880 So we might go in that with temperature sensors, thermal 0:03:53.920 --> 0:04:01.280 imaging cameras to measure temperature fluctuations, sound video, infrared, ultra 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.040 violet cameras if possible, all the way up to the 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.880 high energy, which is which is you know, the X 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.840 rays and radiation and so on. I've heard people actually 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.880 use Geiger counters in their investigations as well. So the 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.719 idea behind it is that if something does manifest, we 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.680 might pick it up on a couple of different instruments. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.239 So for example, a lot of people report temperature drops 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:27.880 where and all of a sudden gets really cold in 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.320 one little spot, So that might be an indication that 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.159 whatever is coming through, assuming that it's real, is somehow 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.400 using the energy absorbing the vibration of the molecules themselves, 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.440 which causes the temperature to drop in order for them 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:42.760 to manifest themselves. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.080 Can you see I assume most of the cases you 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:51.159 look at there's an explanation they're not actually ghosts. Well, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.280 how in a case like this, can you see an 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:54.360 explanation off the top? 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.320 Can I see an explanation? When I started this, I 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.120 was I had a much much stricter protocol in that 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.080 if only one person witnesses it, we can't accept it 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.839 as evidence. It has to be seen by two individuals 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:14.719 or recorded by equipment and some one. Over time, I 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.359 realized that that was actually pretty strict, stringent sort of 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.760 rules which skeptics might still adhere to. I've kind of 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.719 relaxed that because I've now realized that people do actually 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.840 witness things, even though they can't necessarily prove it, so 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.280 to speak. So in this case, I'm depending on the 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:37.040 credibility of the individual who's who's experiencing the phenomena, and 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:37.919 he's credible. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.919 But he's credible he believes he saw it. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.240 Yeah, absolutely, I can't. I can't dismiss it. I mean, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:53.080 there's a range of psychological interpretations and explanations for it. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.919 Which a hardline skeptic will dismiss it, saying it's purely 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.240 FIGNI very imagination, over active mind someone and someone which 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:06.279 it could be absolutely absolutely sorry. The interesting bit is 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.920 if you find over time, multiple people see the same 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.440 thing over a period of months or years, which for 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.680 example the port Arthur O case, the paper that I published, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.120 looked at that there were I'd like hundreds of people. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.800 I've read that paper. I almost understand it. I'd like 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.400 to talk about that later. There's another case I like 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.040 to raise. And this man is credibly he's a chair 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.840 of the ABC, Kim Williams. I interviewed him earlier this year. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.040 His mother had died and he was giving a speech. 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.160 This is how he described it in his own words. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:37.480 Kim William's chair of the ABC. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.760 I do remember that she. I was giving this speech 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:47.080 on education in the Parliament actually, and Mom appeared on 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.760 the other side of the stage and started to walk 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.800 across from me. She died a couple of days before 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.400 I was While I was delivering the speech, I was 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.680 saying in my head, Mum, this is not a good time. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:01.000 Start this. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:06.800 And then she came across the stage and then she 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.920 stood on my right hand side, and I was continuing 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.280 to endeavor to give the speech, and I did actually 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.640 fall to then, and I did weep a little, which 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.040 was very embarrassing because there was this room absolutely stacked 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:29.000 with people. I recovered myself and kept on going, but 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:34.840 it was I know, the audience was enormously perplexed. And 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.360 I said, look, you're not going to begin to understand this, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.840 but my mother died a few days ago, and she's 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.960 actually standing right next to me now, and I'm finding 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:45.920 it rather difficult. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.560 That was a truly weird experience. So what's your instinct 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.240 on that? Grief, as he says, grief playing games with 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:54.600 the mane. 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.760 Look, the first the first thought is grief, especially if 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.760 you're under if your load with stress and you're still grieving, 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.280 it's quite possible that that could come through. However, saying 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.720 that the two things are not mutually exclusive, there's no 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.880 reason why you can't be grieving and wanting to see 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:19.320 someone and that person also actually coming through. Lots of 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.200 people have reported, you know, dreams where relatives and things 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:27.560 come through in the dreams to leaving the experience with 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.520 a feeling of being reassured and comforted. 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.720 But I would have I've thought I think would have 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:33.320 had that sort of thing myself. I think you would 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.120 assume after you've lost somebody close to you that could 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.280 be your that's just your brain reacting in sleep, isn't it. 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:45.280 Yeah, and processing information in someone. You sometimes do get 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.240 little bits of other information that come through that you 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.240 wouldn't necessarily know. So there might be information about things 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.280 or events that you weren't aware of. That rarely, but 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:57.600 they do come through sometimes. 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.880 So Ken Williams can't explain it, can you? 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.040 In that particular instance, it's his own experience. I'm not 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.640 sure that I would want to to impact the meaningfulness 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.800 of that for him. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.160 Yeah. Yeah, We've had a few other examples. I'll just 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.080 before we move on to some other stuff. But I 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.880 did some calls on radio about it. People who There 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.719 was one case where a people had moved into a 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.280 new house had a young son. Young son reported without 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.440 fear several times night a person had come and sat 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.000 on the end of the bed and stroke their leg, 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:35.480 and of course Mum and dad said, he who's in 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.640 the house. They found from a neighbor that had been 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.680 a boy many years ago living in the house with 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.760 polio and it was the habit of the father to 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:45.400 sit on the end of the bed and stroke the 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:51.040 son's leg with the polio. They weren't saying what had happened. 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.560 They were just raising this as a very peculiar situation. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:55.360 Is it peculiar? 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.520 Peculiar in the sense that it's really interesting? 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.280 Yeahs really interesting. Why? 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.920 Well, again, it indicates that there may be a conscious 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:12.320 consciousness might have survived outside of death and remains behind, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:18.320 and in essence they're still looking after what they believe 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:19.280 might be their child. 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.760 It's interesting that was reported by the child and to 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:23.480 the parents and they had no idea at the time. 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.480 Was reported that this had happened in the house before 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:27.840 they lived there. Yep. 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:33.240 And these things do happen where people will report things 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.480 occurring in the same location or of a period of time. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.679 So you might find that that family might move out 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.960 of the house, another family comes in and the phenomena 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:41.920 is reported again. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:43.719 Just before we move on, the other thing that was 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.959 reported to me on radio as a guy lived in 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.840 a house in Tasmania with his family. They'd moved in 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.520 and strange things started to happen. His wife would scream 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.200 under the shower and she'd be scolded. He go and 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.000 have a look, and the water's cold, but she'd still 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.080 been scolded. Windows opening and chuting all the email. The 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.400 windows shut, and they still went up and down. According 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:08.160 to the Family Strange Noises explanation. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.520 These are all common common reports, common common poltaris of 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.240 ghosts or poltargeist activity. So ghosts ghosts are there's a 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.160 slight difference in terms of the phenomena that that arise 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.559 with ghosts. It's a bit more passive stuff, so you 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.120 might see things at the corner of your eye, or 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.360 you might find temperature, drops, noises, those kinds of things. 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.640 Poltergeists that get a bit more hands on, so there 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.000 might be a little bit more movement, windows opening, doors opening, 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:37.880 feeling of being touched. 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.280 Yeah, there is there enough of that, you say, you 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:43.840 keep You've said several times there are a lot of 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.280 reports about this. Are there enough reports for you to 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.920 feel convinced there's something going on? We don't understand. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.320 For me, yes, but for me it's it's it's evidence 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.040 that I've gathered over my own investigations. So I've done 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.480 a lot of sight investigtions where I went into the field. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.040 Also anecdotes. For example, when I when I created my group, 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.240 I went into the bank to create an account for 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.520 the organization. Once the bank manager, she. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.480 Must spend a long time ago, you had a bank manager. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.600 Yeah, well, he actually told the taler when he comes in, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.080 please get him to come and talk to me. So 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.160 I thought something, something's going on. I went in there 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.760 and he told me his story about his recurring, recurring ghost. 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.360 That he had a lady ghost with him for the 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.320 last twenty thirty years, ever since he was a child. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:30.720 So he told me about this. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:32.520 She visited him regularly. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.920 Yeah, just she, he said. She always were a I 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.160 think it was a green dress and she would just 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.720 appear during the night in his bedroom. And it wasn't 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.000 It was kind of a reassuring kind of apparition. 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.079 You believed it. He believed it. 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.720 He believed it. And again, when I first started investigating, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.320 I was hardline. Sorry not I wouldn't say a skeptic, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.559 but I was critical in terms of accepting evidence. And 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.560 as I said, if one individual would would have this experience, 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.240 I probably would discount it, saying there's too many psychological 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.320 processes going on. But the more I look into it, 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.840 the more I'm starting to accept that, Yeah, perhaps they 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:18.240 did see these things. It would be great to also 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.880 get other corroborating kind of evidence. 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.320 As well, so you're no longer have skept it. 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.920 No, I've experienced a few things myself. 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.199 To get to that. But some ground rules. First, you 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.920 are a neuroscientist. What's a neuroscientist? 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.080 So background is neuroscience. So I was looking at essentially 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.360 how the brain works in very very fine intricate details. 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.960 So the some of the work that I did was 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.480 looking at or recording individual individual cells in the brain 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:52.120 in response to sounds or individual cells. Yeah, yeah, so 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.480 it's micro electrode recordings. This is in animal animal moderns, 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.560 not not humans. But yeah, we'd insert a smaller electrode 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.079 into the brain into one cell or a small group nearby, 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.880 and record responses from let's say, hearing or responses from 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:08.120 whisker movements. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.920 I'm asking these questions to prove them because you must. 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.839 You must get sick of being mocked. I mean, you're 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:14.760 not just some wacko. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.120 You've actually surprisingly I haven't really been mocked actively. Apart 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.400 from a few student radio radio interviews where they were 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:23.560 just making jokes about me. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:24.560 Most of the time. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.280 It's actually been pretty good. I have noticed early on 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.840 there was a lot of hush hush, like the topic 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.239 of parapsychology comes up, and then people, especially in academia, 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.600 just go, let's not talk about that. But at the 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.480 same time, on the on the down low, quietly, they'll 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.600 start telling me their experiences that they've had, but they 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:44.600 don't want to acknowledge it. 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.080 You're so, you're a parapsychologist. What's that. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.600 I wouldn't say parapsychology is my interest. I've never been 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.840 professional in parapsychology because professional means I've got an income 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.320 from it. So everything that I've done in my research 0:14:58.360 --> 0:14:59.960 has been from my own funds. 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:01.800 And what are your teaching at the moment? 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.440 So I work at at at Swimmer University. Essentially I 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:11.320 have been teaching in neuroscience and cardio pulmonary physiology, so 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:12.800 physiology based based work. 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:14.040 And how long you've been doing that? 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.160 Well, I have my ID card here which showed my 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:22.080 face showed earlier I would have been teaching for about 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:23.240 nine or so years. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.520 And why the interest in this area? I've read you 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.640 say that it's something I had an interest since you 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.200 were a child in this aerial wife. 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.960 Since my teenage years, I came across a book by 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:42.240 Robert Monroe. He and he was describing his experiences having 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:46.320 spontaneous out of body experiences. So he was a businessman. 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.880 One day, went to sleep on the couch, afternoon nap 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.600 and bam, he's out of his bodies. He thinks he's 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.840 going insane because he can feel things, he can put 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.440 his hands through the floorboards. He went to see a 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.200 neurologist and they said, no, it's your fine. So from 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.960 that he actually started his own company, out of Body, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.520 trying to induce out of body experiences using brainwave activation 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.080 through HAMI sync. I'm not sure if you're familiar with 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:15.160 HAMI sink essentially bin ooral beats. Was it him or 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.400 someone else, but anyway, so he had this technology to 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.240 try and induce these things for yourselves. I read his book, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.240 I read his techniques, and I started implementing them when 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.200 I was a teenager, and I could get to a 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.400 certain point one of the you mean haven out of 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.560 body experience. Well, yeah, so there's a certain number of stages. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.320 You try to let your body go to sleep and 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.000 but your mind stays awake. And that at a certain 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.760 point you try to raise or change your energy until 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.280 you feel these vibrations in your body, and it's quite 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.720 unique when you feel them, you definitely feel them. The 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.120 problem it always failed for me after that because at 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.640 that point you either get super excited and the excitement 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.320 stops it, or you get really fearful. You fear that 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.480 you're going to die. If you leave body, you can 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:01.160 never come back again. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:01.960 Are you going to die? 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.240 And those two have always one or the other always. 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:06.840 Popped up, So you've never done it. 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.520 I never had a conscious art of body experience, but 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.840 I believe that with the intention or even naturally during 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.840 during sleep, your body will or you're something within you 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.159 will disengage and leave temporarily and come back when you 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:21.520 wake up. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.359 Did you have an experience of visiting a you believe 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:25.760 you're visiting a colleague. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:31.600 Yeah, so this is my partner now. We used to 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:36.200 live on opposite ends of the city, and one night, spontaneously, 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.439 I said, I haven't done this in years. I'm going 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.239 to try and have an art of body experience and 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.680 visit her. And I started started the process and I 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:47.480 could feel that I was doing it, but it didn't 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.760 feel comfortable. So I stopped and I just went to sleep. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.920 So that's the last that I recall of it. Next day, 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.520 I got a phone call from her saying, did you 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.439 try to have an art of body experience? Because I 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.240 saw you in I in my room two in the morning. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.480 I woke up when you're there, which rightly so freaked 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.240 her out. And so yeah, that's kind of that was 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.240 interesting experience. I've never been observed by someone else. 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:14.800 So you believe that you did have that out of 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:15.439 body experience. 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.720 It is certainly my intention, and it's not like I 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.480 in the last fifteen years, I've actually actively tried to 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.080 do this every night. This was probably first time in 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:26.560 five years that I actually tried. 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.400 Let's define some terms and then we'll move. I really 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:34.760 want to hear more of your own experiences. Define a ghost, I. 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:40.080 Guess the classical would be a human entity, a human 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.960 being that has passed away and somehow portion of their consciousness, 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:49.000 portion of their entity, has remained outside of the outside. 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.880 Of the body. So you believe in ghosts, I. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:59.400 Definitely believe in the possibility. It's a political answer, okay, yes, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:04.840 I do. Just just to clarify that what is an 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:11.320 apparition that's essentially a ghost that makes itself visible for 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.720 one reason or another, a polter geist. Poltergeist I think 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.560 as the name for the name derives from noisy spirit, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:25.920 polter geist, noisy spirit, and again those can those can 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:34.320 be just highly energetic ghosts that tend to be a 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.480 little bit more angry, I think would be it would 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:38.720 be a good way of describing it. 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.720 What is a visual anomaly? 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.560 Visual anomaly, I think it's just a umbre all thetone 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:49.240 for seeing something you can't explain. 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.480 Okay, so you've seen that, You've seen things you can't explain. Yeah, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:57.919 if you'll get to that supernatural assault, supernatural assault, I 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.320 can't say that happened. Sorry, that's probably fairly rare event. 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:06.280 But yeah, people do occasionally report feeling like they have 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:11.360 been literally assaulted by something unknown. So for example, from 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.600 the experiences that I've heard, people often report feeling like 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.720 they're being pushed down the stairs. Rare down the stairs 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.240 for example, it is rare phenomena where where you you 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:26.160 physical interaction, being being moved or touched or objects even 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.760 being moved are fairly uncommon because very hard if you 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.119 sense a present well a return for that you sense 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.680 there's something in the room rather than see it. Yep. 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:41.560 Sounds presence, that's strangey okay. And what sort of things 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.080 do people sense? I mean, the Hollywood will tell you 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.199 there is a coldness in the room, or there's a 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:47.520 smell in the room. What is it? 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.679 Yeah, most of the time, probably the two most common 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:59.520 things are people will shadow shadow people. I guess you 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.160 sense something in the corner of your periphery, so you're 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:03.840 looking at you're doing your own thing, and you just 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.120 sense a movement, something that catches all right, you look 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.080 over and there's nothing there. That's a very common one. 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.800 And then at the same time or or separately, this 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:14.480 sense presence where you're in the room and you just 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.720 feel like there's someone looking at you or someone in 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.679 the room with you, and there are Strangely enough, there 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:27.000 are actually physical explanations for that. Magnetic fields, magnetic fields 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.359 and ultrasounds. So those those are two mechanisms that potentially 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.120 can induce those two sensations, which is yeah. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.680 So always the magnetic is that the magnetic field of 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:39.640 because you've written the paper on this, but the magnetic 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.200 field of the earth or what is the magnetic So 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:44.200 there have been. 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.720 There have been a few few cases, and a classic 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.440 one was in the older days when people slept with 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.040 alarm clocks. There was one one girl that long ago. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.359 That's that's what I used to think, until I started 0:21:57.359 --> 0:21:58.960 do you do you have an alarm clock. 0:21:58.760 --> 0:21:59.880 In your bed? Who has? 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:02.840 These days? It's all the mobile phones now. But in 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:04.760