1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,160 S1: Every parent has the same fiercely held wish for their 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,360 S1: unborn child, that they're born healthy and continue to thrive. 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,600 S1: But how far would you go to achieve your goal, 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,720 S1: and what does it mean to thrive these days anyway? 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,680 S1: Because there is a growing movement overseas and a controversial 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,640 S1: genetic test which offers prospective parents the chance to choose 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,880 S1: embryos that have a probability for all kinds of traits, 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,040 S1: like being tall or intelligent, or ones that lean towards 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,840 S1: not having certain traits, like developing acne or the propensity 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,920 S1: to become a criminal. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,880 S1: listening to Morning Edition from The Age and the Sydney 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,840 S1: Morning Herald today, science reporter Angus Dalton on the Australians 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,239 S1: wanting to access this technology and the ethical implications of 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,720 S1: creating designer babies. Hey, Angus. Welcome back. 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,600 S2: Thanks, Sam. Great to be here. 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,520 S1: Well, you have been writing about IVF and the thorny 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,250 S1: issue of choosing a baby's sex. Now tell me, why 18 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:06,529 S1: have you actually decided to write about this now? Because 19 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:09,569 S1: after all, the practice is banned here. Unless it's for 20 00:01:09,569 --> 00:01:11,850 S1: certain medical reasons. And that's been in place for a 21 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:12,810 S1: long time, right? 22 00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:15,690 S2: Yeah. So last year, this sort of came onto my 23 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:20,050 S2: radar because there was a visiting California doctor, an IVF 24 00:01:20,050 --> 00:01:23,090 S2: doctor who runs a sex selection clinic in the US, 25 00:01:23,170 --> 00:01:24,649 S2: and I spoke to him while he was here, and 26 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:27,890 S2: he was speaking to a bunch of prospective parents about 27 00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:31,490 S2: offering sex selection, which, as you say, is banned in Australia, 28 00:01:31,490 --> 00:01:34,730 S2: and basically trying to convince them to go overseas to 29 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:38,130 S2: the US, where a lot of this sort of new 30 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:43,130 S2: ish IVF selection technology is legal. So people could choose 31 00:01:43,130 --> 00:01:45,369 S2: a girl or a boy over there and then come 32 00:01:45,370 --> 00:01:47,570 S2: back to Australia and have their happy family. So I 33 00:01:47,570 --> 00:01:48,930 S2: just got into it there. I thought it was really 34 00:01:48,930 --> 00:01:52,410 S2: interesting ethical conversation. And what really caught my attention is 35 00:01:52,410 --> 00:01:58,330 S2: that basically the ruling document kind of regulating this area 36 00:01:58,330 --> 00:02:03,170 S2: is the National Health and Medical Research Council's ethical guidelines 37 00:02:03,170 --> 00:02:06,770 S2: for the use of assisted reproductive technology. And there was 38 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:09,770 S2: a line in there where they're justifying their ban of 39 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:13,090 S2: sex selection in Australia, which I found really interesting. And 40 00:02:13,090 --> 00:02:17,169 S2: it was basically saying that in the council's view, there 41 00:02:17,169 --> 00:02:21,370 S2: has not been enough research in Australia to know what 42 00:02:21,370 --> 00:02:25,930 S2: the general public's ethical view of this technology is. So 43 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:31,170 S2: that made me think, okay, if the National Health and 44 00:02:31,169 --> 00:02:33,930 S2: Medical Research Council is saying that they don't really know 45 00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:36,850 S2: what the public's temperature is on this and that, therefore 46 00:02:37,090 --> 00:02:39,730 S2: they want more information so they can make guidelines more 47 00:02:39,730 --> 00:02:42,329 S2: in line with the public's view. Maybe we should start 48 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:44,290 S2: writing about this so people can actually think about it, 49 00:02:44,290 --> 00:02:47,290 S2: because maybe this sort of isn't on people's radar unless 50 00:02:47,290 --> 00:02:50,889 S2: they're actively undergoing IVF or considering it. And even then 51 00:02:50,889 --> 00:02:52,730 S2: it mightn't be on their radar. So I just thought 52 00:02:52,730 --> 00:02:55,170 S2: it was worth starting to report on these issues, speak 53 00:02:55,169 --> 00:02:57,650 S2: to experts about where they sit on different sides of 54 00:02:57,650 --> 00:03:00,410 S2: the fence. And, um, it turns out that people are 55 00:03:00,410 --> 00:03:03,700 S2: doing a lot more than just choosing boys and girls. 56 00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:06,460 S1: I mean, let's get into this because as someone who's 57 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:09,180 S1: done IVF like you think, I'd be somewhat across it, 58 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:12,180 S1: but this actually blew my mind because you've written about 59 00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:15,700 S1: a new controversial test that some Australian IVF parents are 60 00:03:15,740 --> 00:03:20,540 S1: actually accessing overseas, and this test essentially attempts to predict 61 00:03:20,540 --> 00:03:23,940 S1: an embryo's future. And we're talking about everything from the 62 00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:27,820 S1: probability of living a long time, of getting acne, of 63 00:03:27,820 --> 00:03:30,780 S1: becoming a criminal. Angus, tell us about this. 64 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:34,380 S2: I know this is wild, right. So these tests are 65 00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:39,180 S2: called polygenic risk scores. And basically these companies in the 66 00:03:39,180 --> 00:03:42,220 S2: US have cropped up over the last few years, basically 67 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:48,220 S2: going beyond standard pre-implantation genetic testing of embryos, which normally 68 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:50,860 S2: look for diseases just caused by like a single mutation, 69 00:03:50,860 --> 00:03:53,500 S2: for example, cystic fibrosis. That's really easy to pick up 70 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:56,500 S2: because you're just looking for one mutation or, you know, 71 00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:00,260 S2: a few mutations on a single gene, or just broader 72 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:04,020 S2: chromosomal abnormalities, which are pretty easy to pick up. This 73 00:04:04,060 --> 00:04:11,340 S2: goes a lot further than that. So these companies, basically 74 00:04:11,340 --> 00:04:14,020 S2: one of them that I looked at, Nuclear Genomics, will 75 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:18,539 S2: screen up to 20 embryos for 2000 different diseases and 76 00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:22,220 S2: traits and then supply prospective parents with what looks like 77 00:04:22,260 --> 00:04:26,260 S2: a menu, basically laying out all of the different embryos 78 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:30,219 S2: ranked by all of these different traits. So you can 79 00:04:30,220 --> 00:04:33,420 S2: literally scroll through this menu on an iPad, and it 80 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:37,580 S2: will tell you which embryo has a higher chance of diabetes, 81 00:04:37,620 --> 00:04:40,260 S2: what the eye color might be, the chance of it 82 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:43,620 S2: having something like, you know, five more IQ points than 83 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:47,100 S2: another embryo, the risk of getting Alzheimer's and anxiety, and 84 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:49,500 S2: then the next one might be blue eyed rather than 85 00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:52,380 S2: green eyed, but have a lower chance of diabetes. But 86 00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:56,100 S2: it's also going to be two inches smaller and have 87 00:04:56,100 --> 00:05:00,339 S2: a higher risk of something like anxiety, for example. So 88 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:02,140 S2: then you're in a scenario where you might have, I 89 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:04,700 S2: don't know, between 5 or 10 embryos and you're actually 90 00:05:04,870 --> 00:05:08,550 S2: Making all these trade offs and trying to choose between 91 00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:12,110 S2: embryos based on up to 2000 different traits. I don't 92 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:15,270 S2: know how anyone makes that decision, Sam, but this is 93 00:05:15,310 --> 00:05:18,230 S2: sort of what the technology is looking like at the moment. 94 00:05:19,510 --> 00:05:22,590 S2: And a lot of experts are very skeptical about the 95 00:05:22,589 --> 00:05:27,310 S2: accuracy of these tests, but nevertheless, they're being aggressively marketed 96 00:05:27,310 --> 00:05:31,150 S2: in the US. There's one company, for example, called Nucleus Genomics, 97 00:05:31,150 --> 00:05:35,469 S2: and they just papered billboards all over New York saying 98 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:39,070 S2: things like, have a smarter baby, have your tallest baby, 99 00:05:39,270 --> 00:05:42,830 S2: preview your future baby, have your best baby, that sort 100 00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:43,390 S2: of thing. 101 00:05:43,750 --> 00:05:46,229 S3: The company calls it genetic optimization. 102 00:05:46,430 --> 00:05:50,109 S4: Designed to help you choose based on what matters most 103 00:05:50,110 --> 00:05:50,670 S4: to you. 104 00:05:51,190 --> 00:05:55,630 S5: This genetic reductionism. They really give me ethical cause. 105 00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:58,190 S6: They used to say that a child conceived in love 106 00:05:58,230 --> 00:06:02,909 S6: has a greater chance of happiness. They don't say that anymore. 107 00:06:05,470 --> 00:06:07,790 S1: And you reported that there was an Australian couple working 108 00:06:07,790 --> 00:06:11,989 S1: with another company overseas, that they planned to have ten children. 109 00:06:11,990 --> 00:06:15,469 S1: They would test between 60 and 80 embryos. And specifically, 110 00:06:15,750 --> 00:06:18,270 S1: they said that they would prioritize the embryos that were 111 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:20,110 S1: deemed to have a better chance of good health, but 112 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:22,830 S1: also higher intelligence in the hope that it will make 113 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:27,470 S1: raising and homeschooling their many future children easier. I mean, 114 00:06:27,470 --> 00:06:30,430 S1: so people are getting quite specific about, I guess, their desires. 115 00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:34,430 S2: Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's that thing where people are 116 00:06:34,430 --> 00:06:37,270 S2: accessing this technology for a whole bunch of different reasons. 117 00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:41,070 S2: As you say, this couple who very generously spoke to me, 118 00:06:41,110 --> 00:06:44,390 S2: who are undergoing this service legally overseas. So just like 119 00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:47,910 S2: sex selection, Australians can legally access the service in certain 120 00:06:47,910 --> 00:06:51,669 S2: places overseas. These people in particular want a large family. 121 00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:54,790 S2: They want at least ten kids. They initially were sort 122 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:58,750 S2: of interested in screening for breast cancer risk, which is 123 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:00,789 S2: another one of these standard tests. But then they also 124 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:04,549 S2: wanted to go further and as you say, choose embryos 125 00:07:04,550 --> 00:07:08,200 S2: that are deemed to be potentially more healthy and as 126 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,640 S2: they told me, more intelligent to make homeschooling easier in 127 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,000 S2: the future. So the intelligence thing is really interesting because 128 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,480 S2: if you're looking at something like IQ, even that as 129 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,360 S2: a measure is scientifically contested, let alone whether we have 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,800 S2: enough of a handle on the genetic data yet to 131 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:33,200 S2: be able to actually predict IQ levels in certain embryos 132 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,360 S2: and the people that they end up being. And these tests, 133 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,760 S2: even if they are accurate, which experts say at the 134 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,440 S2: moment that they're largely not, would only be able to 135 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,880 S2: account for the DNA. And it cannot account for environment 136 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:51,120 S2: for something like intelligence, at least half of that measure, 137 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,120 S2: if not more, is not down to DNA, but down 138 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,920 S2: to your upbringing, your nutrition. As you grow up with 139 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,440 S2: school that you go to your home life, how much 140 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,320 S2: stress that you experience as a child and what resources 141 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,320 S2: you have available to you, right? So these tests just 142 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:08,760 S2: can't account for that. 143 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,520 S1: Now we're going to get into the ethics in just 144 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,320 S1: a bit. But first of all, can you just briefly 145 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,320 S1: tell us what the guidelines around IVF in Australia are 146 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,120 S1: in particular around this issue about determining particular characteristics that 147 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,120 S1: an embryo will have? Can you walk us through this 148 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:22,600 S1: a bit? 149 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:29,720 S2: Yeah. So you can do preimplantation genetic testing to screen 150 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,400 S2: for diseases that are generally caused by a single mutation 151 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,559 S2: or a single gene, and would severely affect someone's quality 152 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,200 S2: of life. You know, picking up something like cystic fibrosis 153 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,640 S2: and the other really important part of the guidelines, and 154 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,240 S2: it was a little bit difficult for me to actually 155 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:51,120 S2: find if there was any specific regulation or recommendations about 156 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,559 S2: this polygenic risk scoring technology, just because it is so new, 157 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,360 S2: I suppose. But I also spoke to the Fertility Society 158 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,920 S2: of Australia and New Zealand's Reproductive Technology Accreditation Committee, and 159 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,640 S2: they're the ones sort of responsible for regulating these new technologies. 160 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,209 S2: And they made the point that the guidelines say that 161 00:09:11,450 --> 00:09:15,090 S2: accredited IVF doctors and clinics in Australia can only recommend 162 00:09:15,090 --> 00:09:19,850 S2: that services that are proven to be clinically effective. And 163 00:09:20,130 --> 00:09:25,209 S2: by and large, this polygenic risk scoring of embryos has 164 00:09:25,210 --> 00:09:33,370 S2: not been proven clinically. You've got fertility research and scientific 165 00:09:33,370 --> 00:09:36,050 S2: committees in the US writing letters saying that they don't 166 00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:40,570 S2: support this. Australian based genetics and fertility ethics committees don't 167 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:43,850 S2: support it either. So that's another reason why at the 168 00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:46,850 S2: minute in Australia, this would not be allowed to be offered. 169 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:49,170 S2: In the US, it's a completely different game. It's almost 170 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:52,130 S2: like completely unregulated. So they can do whatever they want there, 171 00:09:52,130 --> 00:09:53,290 S2: which is why it's a bit of a hot spot 172 00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:57,130 S2: for these new technologies, and has long been a destination 173 00:09:57,130 --> 00:09:59,050 S2: for couples seeking sex selection. 174 00:10:01,610 --> 00:10:02,609 S1: After the break. 175 00:10:02,770 --> 00:10:07,490 S2: If we have the technology to have healthier, smarter kids, 176 00:10:07,490 --> 00:10:09,410 S2: why the hell wouldn't we use it? 177 00:10:13,610 --> 00:10:17,250 S1: Okay. Well, let's talk about the ethical issues in this space. 178 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:21,290 S1: They are numerous and they're important because not only as 179 00:10:21,290 --> 00:10:25,970 S1: you've written, does this technology, even with its questionable scientific merits, 180 00:10:25,970 --> 00:10:28,610 S1: does it lock out regular folk from even considering it? 181 00:10:28,610 --> 00:10:34,090 S1: Because the cost can be, you know, us, $2,500 per embryo. 182 00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:38,050 S1: But there's also a glaring issue in terms of racial equality. 183 00:10:38,050 --> 00:10:39,690 S1: So please tell us about that. 184 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:42,290 S2: Yeah, I mean, this seems to be one of the 185 00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:45,010 S2: biggest issues for me before we even get to any 186 00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:49,930 S2: of the futuristic conversations about like a Gattaca esque society where, like, 187 00:10:49,929 --> 00:10:52,410 S2: the wealthy people are allowed to, like, design their babies 188 00:10:52,410 --> 00:10:54,929 S2: or pick the best embryos, and we have this sort 189 00:10:54,929 --> 00:10:57,450 S2: of weird sort of class structure before we get to 190 00:10:57,450 --> 00:10:59,930 S2: any of that future stuff. This technology which is being 191 00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:03,690 S2: offered is based on the genomic data that we have 192 00:11:03,690 --> 00:11:09,450 S2: access to. And as of two years ago, about 78% 193 00:11:09,450 --> 00:11:13,459 S2: of genomic data is from Europeans, and most of that 194 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:17,339 S2: was just from three countries, one of them being the UK. 195 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:22,420 S2: So scientists have basically told me that for a lot 196 00:11:22,420 --> 00:11:25,220 S2: of these tests and for a lot of particular traits, 197 00:11:25,660 --> 00:11:28,620 S2: it only works for European people. It only works for 198 00:11:28,620 --> 00:11:31,900 S2: white people. So you could very easily go to like 199 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:34,660 S2: a population of white people, test all of them. And 200 00:11:34,660 --> 00:11:36,980 S2: if they if they're of European descent, you could very 201 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:39,140 S2: easily sort out the ones that are a greater genetic 202 00:11:39,140 --> 00:11:42,620 S2: risk of heart disease, for example. We couldn't necessarily do 203 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:45,660 S2: that in an African population yet because we don't have 204 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:50,220 S2: the genomic data to draw from. Therefore, these polygenic risk scores, 205 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,620 S2: which aren't even all that accurate for European people, are 206 00:11:54,620 --> 00:11:58,900 S2: going to be even less accurate for anyone of non-European 207 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:02,179 S2: background at the moment, if you take into account the 208 00:12:02,179 --> 00:12:05,980 S2: cost and the fact that it's vastly based on European DNA. 209 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:09,020 S2: This is a technology only accessible to the white and wealthy. 210 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:12,860 S1: I mean, that's so inherently problematic. And if that wasn't enough, 211 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:16,580 S1: potential landmines. You also wrote about, of course, there being 212 00:12:16,580 --> 00:12:19,780 S1: potential lawsuits from IVF clinics that offer this service, because 213 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:22,620 S1: you pointed out in your piece that one IVF provider, 214 00:12:22,820 --> 00:12:25,980 S1: nervous about lawsuits, wondered to the New York Times, what 215 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:28,580 S1: if you chose embryos to be tall, beautiful, and smart 216 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:33,060 S1: and they come out short, squat, thick and a little dull? Okay, 217 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:35,780 S1: so there's that. But then there's also the larger concerns 218 00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:39,140 S1: of what might happen more broadly in society if people 219 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:41,739 S1: are allowed to create designer babies. Right. 220 00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:44,540 S2: Yeah for sure. I love that quote from The New 221 00:12:44,540 --> 00:12:47,660 S2: York Times, because it really gets to, uh, the key 222 00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:50,060 S2: issue about this technology to understand, which is that it 223 00:12:50,059 --> 00:12:55,900 S2: is probabilistic. You cannot guarantee, like a taller, smarter child 224 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:59,620 S2: with blond hair, it's only ever going to be a 225 00:12:59,620 --> 00:13:03,380 S2: range of probabilities, right? The issue for me is the 226 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:06,100 S2: same one with sex selection. Or rather, this is the 227 00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:08,500 S2: issue that experts have spoken to have relayed to me, 228 00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:12,790 S2: which is this concern that if you make decisions about 229 00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:15,430 S2: what a child is going to be before it's even 230 00:13:15,429 --> 00:13:19,510 S2: implanted and before it's even born, you risk really ramping up, 231 00:13:19,550 --> 00:13:22,310 S2: I guess, parental pressure. If you have an idea of 232 00:13:22,309 --> 00:13:24,630 S2: what your child is going to look like and be 233 00:13:24,630 --> 00:13:27,630 S2: like before it even exists. So as an example of this, 234 00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:31,550 S2: if you're taking something like autism, for example, uh, if 235 00:13:31,550 --> 00:13:35,790 S2: people are then going out and selecting against autism, there 236 00:13:35,790 --> 00:13:39,710 S2: are concerns from that community that that further demonizes people 237 00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:44,390 S2: living with autism. And also basically, you're making a judgment 238 00:13:44,390 --> 00:13:47,069 S2: call on something that you might not necessarily understand, like 239 00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:50,350 S2: a lot of autistic people do not view their autism 240 00:13:50,350 --> 00:13:53,990 S2: as a disorder. They view it as something that falls 241 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:58,270 S2: within the realm of natural cognitive diversity. Right? So then 242 00:13:58,270 --> 00:14:01,150 S2: if people start actively selecting against it, is that really 243 00:14:01,150 --> 00:14:04,630 S2: something that's better for our society? Maybe not. One of 244 00:14:04,630 --> 00:14:06,790 S2: the IVF doctors I spoke to had this great line. 245 00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:10,429 S2: His name's Doctor Joseph in Melbourne, and he's had a 246 00:14:10,429 --> 00:14:13,030 S2: couple of things were really interesting. He's had patients ask 247 00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:16,190 S2: about this technology. His Australian patients ask about it. And 248 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:18,070 S2: in his view, he sort of said, we live in 249 00:14:18,070 --> 00:14:22,670 S2: this society that's like Instagram. Everything's got to be perfect. 250 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:25,310 S2: And it's also an Uber Eats kind of style world, like, 251 00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:27,870 S2: we want the best and we want it now. And 252 00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:31,790 S2: obviously everyone wants the best for their kids. But the 253 00:14:31,790 --> 00:14:35,310 S2: whole point, in his view of having kids and being 254 00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:41,390 S2: alive is embracing diversity and embracing, I guess, the random 255 00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:45,150 S2: dice roll of nature. And as soon as you start 256 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:47,470 S2: to mess with that, I don't know. It is something 257 00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:51,830 S2: special about having kids is something special about and fundamental 258 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:55,910 S2: to humanity lost. The counterargument to that, which I also 259 00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:58,990 S2: find very compelling is that if we have the technology 260 00:14:58,990 --> 00:15:03,430 S2: to have healthier, smarter kids, why the hell wouldn't we 261 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:05,430 S2: use it? You know, and you know what I mean? 262 00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:08,350 S2: We know that, for example, people who are smarter tend 263 00:15:08,350 --> 00:15:11,430 S2: to have better lives. Obviously, if you have a lower 264 00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:14,000 S2: genetic risk of a range of cancers and heart disease. 265 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,920 S2: You're going to live longer, and that's a good thing. 266 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,360 S2: So parents, absolutely. All of all of them want the 267 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,360 S2: best for their kids. So I can see why people 268 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,640 S2: would very much want to use this technology as well. 269 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,360 S2: So I see both sides, like I was an IVF baby. 270 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,640 S2: And one of the things that Joseph said that stuck 271 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,640 S2: with me was, what if our parents had used this technology? 272 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,800 S2: What would their parameters have been? We mightn't be here. 273 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,240 S2: I mightn't have been here, you know, if they wanted 274 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,600 S2: a girl or if they wanted. I'm six foot seven. 275 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,400 S2: What if they wanted someone who was of average height? 276 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,160 S2: You know what I mean? 277 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,080 S1: I so relate to your point about, you know, would 278 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,920 S1: would you even make the cut, you know, that you 279 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,360 S1: were an IVF baby? Because I just think, well, who 280 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,760 S1: would make the cut? It's like our whole gender, all 281 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,480 S1: of these generations that exist already, we are all going 282 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,920 S1: to pale in comparison to these future babies. 283 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,320 S2: Well, yeah, exactly. Like everyone's got something wrong with them, right? Like, 284 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,840 S2: as one of these IVF doctors said, there is no 285 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,600 S2: such thing as a perfect baby. And even the companies 286 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,520 S2: acknowledge this like they're not. They try and say that 287 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,160 S2: what they're offering is not the perfect baby, despite their advertising, 288 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,400 S2: because there is no such thing. So, Sam, there's always 289 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,560 S2: going to be trade offs. And, uh, you and I 290 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,600 S2: are just stuck to live with our our flaws and 291 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:33,240 S2: our genetic advantages, I suppose. So I absolutely see both sides. 292 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,360 S2: And I try to stay objective on this issue because 293 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,040 S2: there are really compelling arguments on both sides. But these 294 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,560 S2: are the sort of things that have stuck with me 295 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,200 S2: after writing about this for a while. 296 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,840 S1: Absolutely. And I will say that you did give one 297 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,200 S1: counterargument to your last point, which is that, hey, obviously 298 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,440 S1: every parent, of course, is going to want the healthiest 299 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,240 S1: child possible. That's just primal, right? So why not use it? 300 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,840 S1: But the counterargument, I think, that you gave in your 301 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,560 S1: piece was from a genetic statistician, and he said that, 302 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,320 S1: you know, it really may worsen the way society treats 303 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,800 S1: those with non-optimal traits. That's in quotes. If, you know, 304 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,600 S1: we sort of go down this optimization of children route. 305 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,760 S1: So tell us what he was saying about that. His point, 306 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,840 S1: because it's a profound and somewhat dark one. 307 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,530 S2: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought up this scientist. 308 00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:22,490 S2: His name is Doctor Chai from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, 309 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:25,169 S2: and he's actually one of the top guys in the 310 00:17:25,170 --> 00:17:28,690 S2: field on this. But to your point, Sam, he basically 311 00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:33,530 S2: made this point that researchers, by and large, looking at 312 00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:36,930 S2: this are quite concerned about this in quote marks optimization 313 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:40,850 S2: of children, particularly when done commercially under marketing pressure, and 314 00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:44,610 S2: that it's probably overall not great for our society. I'll 315 00:17:44,609 --> 00:17:46,650 S2: read you this quote that he said. He said it 316 00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:50,330 S2: may worsen the way society treats those with non-optimal traits. 317 00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:53,890 S2: This frequently relates to the 20th century eugenics movement, where 318 00:17:53,930 --> 00:17:57,129 S2: a similar way of thinking in quote marks improving the 319 00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:59,729 S2: human gene pool ended up with the atrocities of the 320 00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:07,250 S2: Nazis and forced sterilizations in many countries. So this anxiety 321 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:16,050 S2: that we're potentially going somewhere where traits like height, possibly whiteness, 322 00:18:16,210 --> 00:18:21,210 S2: intelligence are pre-programmed into our children raises some really, really 323 00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:25,130 S2: uncomfortable questions, even in the researchers that are working directly 324 00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:28,730 S2: with this technology. And then I think those concerns are 325 00:18:28,730 --> 00:18:31,450 S2: probably amplified by the fact that at the moment, this 326 00:18:31,450 --> 00:18:34,130 S2: technology is not an equal one either. 327 00:18:37,609 --> 00:18:42,850 S1: Well, it's such a fascinating space, Angus. So as always, 328 00:18:42,850 --> 00:18:44,169 S1: what a pleasure to have you on. 329 00:18:44,609 --> 00:18:45,889 S2: Thanks so much for having me, Sam. 330 00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:52,770 S7: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Kai Wong. 331 00:18:52,810 --> 00:18:56,450 S7: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 332 00:18:56,450 --> 00:19:00,210 S7: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 333 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:03,210 S7: our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review 334 00:19:03,210 --> 00:19:07,250 S7: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.