WEBVTT - Could an under-16 social media ban work?

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<v Speaker 1>Trevor Long is a technology guru from e FtM dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Morning Trevor, thank you for making yourself available at this

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<v Speaker 1>hour of the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>Pleasure.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, my associate, mister Sindon says that you're normally awake

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<v Speaker 1>at this hour of the morning. Can that be true? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>No, I'd like to get up at freish just forget

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<v Speaker 3>a start on the day. You get more done at

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<v Speaker 3>this hour of the morning than you do any other

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<v Speaker 3>time of day.

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<v Speaker 1>I see. Okay, Now, I know we've talked about this before,

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<v Speaker 1>but there have been some developments. We have a law

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<v Speaker 1>passed that says people under sixteen cannot excess social media.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, to your understanding, are we only talking

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<v Speaker 1>social media sites or the internet?

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<v Speaker 3>Generally we're only talking social media.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is where it gets hilarious.

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<v Speaker 3>So we have a law past It comes into effect

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<v Speaker 3>at the end of this year, but it does not

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<v Speaker 3>yet specify because it's a separate process to specify what

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<v Speaker 3>is social media. So the government has not yet decided

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<v Speaker 3>what is social media. So is YouTube part of social media? TikTok, Instagram,

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<v Speaker 3>et cetera. So that's the first big you know, unknown

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<v Speaker 3>because the big question really from me is YouTube has

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<v Speaker 3>was originally excluded in statements by the government, but during

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<v Speaker 3>the election campaign the Prime Minister was questioned on this

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<v Speaker 3>and he said it would be reviewed and there's been

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<v Speaker 3>no conversation since then.

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<v Speaker 2>And the issue here is not the YouTube that we

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<v Speaker 2>all watch.

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<v Speaker 3>Because we go on a website and we look at

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<v Speaker 3>YouTube and these you know, widescreen format videos, whether they're

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<v Speaker 3>funny or silly or education or whatever, and people watch

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<v Speaker 3>it on their TV. That's the YouTube we think of.

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<v Speaker 3>The thirteen and fourteen year olds aren't watching that YouTube.

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<v Speaker 3>They're on what's called YouTube th thoughts, which is essentially TikTok.

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<v Speaker 3>It is what it is, what YouTube created to fight

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<v Speaker 3>against the rise of TikTok? Why are we allowing that

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<v Speaker 3>under these rules? And that's the first question we need answered.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it included or not?

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<v Speaker 3>And the second question is how on earth do we

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<v Speaker 3>decide who's sixteen and who's not Because these kids don't

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<v Speaker 3>have IDs. My kids don't have IDs. I have a

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<v Speaker 3>thirteen year old and a fourteen year old. They don't

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<v Speaker 3>have an ID. How are these How is TikTok? And

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<v Speaker 3>that's the best example, because people love to hate it.

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<v Speaker 3>How is TikTok meant to work out who's fourteen and

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<v Speaker 3>who's fifteen and who's sixteen. So the government or a

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<v Speaker 3>government body. The Age Assurance Trial released some information on

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<v Speaker 3>Friday suggesting that they had done some testing. They had

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<v Speaker 3>received submissions from the age assurance industry, and of course

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<v Speaker 3>the age assurance industry has said, no, dramas, we can

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<v Speaker 3>tell you who's fifteen and who's sixteen and who's eighteen.

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<v Speaker 3>But Mike, the devil is in the details. These companies

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<v Speaker 3>can do that with an error rate of about.

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<v Speaker 2>A year and a half.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that makes me laugh, Trevor, because can you imagine

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<v Speaker 1>how outraged a seventeen year old will be if she's

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<v Speaker 1>told that she can't look at something that she wants

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<v Speaker 1>to on social media because the device thinks she's only fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Says no. Here's the example I'll give you.

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<v Speaker 3>When my kids turned thirteen, they were allowed to have

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<v Speaker 3>social media because that was the age that social media

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<v Speaker 3>was allowed by the social media companies. My kids literally

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<v Speaker 3>on their birthday requested social media. Okay, So on their

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<v Speaker 3>thirteenth birthday they got accounts.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'll tell you right now, it's actually really hard to.

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<v Speaker 3>Do because the American time zone is a day later,

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<v Speaker 3>and therefore, according to America, they're not thirteen yet. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 3>that's a whole other issue on their sixteenth birthday. Post

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<v Speaker 3>these regulations coming in, how is it possible that any technology,

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<v Speaker 3>any technology is going to tell the difference between a

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<v Speaker 3>child that is fifteen years and ten months old and

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<v Speaker 3>a child that has just turned sixteen? Physically impossible. The

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<v Speaker 3>only way to do that is for a parent to

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<v Speaker 3>verify their idea and confirm that the child can have

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<v Speaker 3>an account, and that, by law, is not required to

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<v Speaker 3>be the way we prove people's age, because identity documents

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<v Speaker 3>are not required under this legislation. So fast the whole

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<v Speaker 3>thing I'm telling you.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So the tests they ran in the recent past,

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding were, as you say, I mean, they couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>tell the difference between an eighteen year old and fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>year old whatever. But when it comes to providing some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of bona fide, I mean, how do you establish

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<v Speaker 1>that the bona fide is bona fide?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we do have pretty good systems for verifying government IDs.

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<v Speaker 3>I actually did it this morning. I was setting up

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<v Speaker 3>a payment terminal for some testing and that required me

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<v Speaker 3>to prove my ID for my company and all this stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>Basically I put in my driver's license and it went

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<v Speaker 3>away and verified it. There are good systems for verifying

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<v Speaker 3>a government ID that is safe and secure, but because

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<v Speaker 3>of the concerns of the wider public around sharing government

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<v Speaker 3>identity documents, the legislation had to require that there were

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<v Speaker 3>options other than So, yes, it's completely allowed to use

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<v Speaker 3>government IDs, but it should not be the only way.

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<v Speaker 3>It must be possible to verify using a method other

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<v Speaker 3>than ID. And there's no way of proving that my

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<v Speaker 3>fourteen year old is fourteen or fifteen. And if you've

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<v Speaker 3>ever been to a kid's sporting match and you've looked

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<v Speaker 3>at the kids on the court, going these are all

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<v Speaker 3>under fifteens. That girl looks seventeen, this girl looks twelve.

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<v Speaker 3>As a parent, I can't tell the age of my

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<v Speaker 3>child's friends.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's certainly the case. So what happens though, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>my youngest son is twenty one, so it's not an

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<v Speaker 1>issue for me that all. But supposing I had a

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen year old who's saying dad, dad, and I say, ah, yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>here's my license, and then I pretend that my fourteen

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<v Speaker 1>year old is actually sixteen year old. How's anybody going

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<v Speaker 1>to prove that's incorrect. They're not.

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<v Speaker 3>And here's the great news, it is not under the legislation. Again,

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<v Speaker 3>a parent cannot be prosecuted fined for having their kids

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<v Speaker 3>on social media, so the parent cannot be held responsible.

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<v Speaker 3>The parent essentially can allow it. It's up to the

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<v Speaker 3>social media companies to not allow it. And there's some

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<v Speaker 3>caveats there because it's actually not about them accessing these services,

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<v Speaker 3>about having accounts on the services, which is a whole

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<v Speaker 3>other discussion. But yeah, basically, there's no requirement for parents

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<v Speaker 3>to get in trouble if their kids are on social media.

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<v Speaker 3>And what I think will happen is just like, right now,

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<v Speaker 3>if my seventeen year old at the time is now eighteen,

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<v Speaker 3>to of the math, if my seventeen year old wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to have a couple of beers at a party, then

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<v Speaker 3>the nineteen year old or the eighteen year old will

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<v Speaker 3>go and get the beers and supply them to everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>H what trust me? Old?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, seventeen eighteen year old Brian with his driver's

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<v Speaker 3>license is going to sign up to accounts for kids

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<v Speaker 3>and give them the logins and passwords.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's what's going to happen. They're going to still

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<v Speaker 2>be on social media.

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<v Speaker 1>So the best the government can really offer is the

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity for you to say to your fifteen year old

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<v Speaker 1>it's against the law for you to go on social media.

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<v Speaker 1>They can flout the law themselves if they want to.

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<v Speaker 1>As you say, your fifteen year old's got to mate

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<v Speaker 1>who pretends to be or maybe you fifteen year old's

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<v Speaker 1>got to mate who's seventeen who will swear for him

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<v Speaker 1>or her that they're of age. So there's so many

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<v Speaker 1>ways to get around it. Really, the best, as I say,

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<v Speaker 1>that the government can offer is I'll tell your child

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<v Speaker 1>it's against the law. Is that really going to make

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<v Speaker 1>a difference in the family situation.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not going to make any difference.

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<v Speaker 3>The worst thing that ever happened in this whole debate

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<v Speaker 3>was the Prime Minister when he said we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>do this, He said we're going to take the responsibility

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<v Speaker 3>away from parents and put it on the social media companies,

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<v Speaker 3>so that if old Jimmy creates an account and gives

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<v Speaker 3>it to little Johnny, then the social media company can say,

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<v Speaker 3>well we had an ID against that account. We did

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<v Speaker 3>our thing. The parents are none the wiser and don't

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<v Speaker 3>need to parent, apparently, according to the Prime Minister, because

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<v Speaker 3>they have been resolved of all responsibility to parents. It's

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<v Speaker 3>purely upon the social media companies and they're the ones

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<v Speaker 3>that get fined if a child is discovered to have

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<v Speaker 3>an account. And it's going to be you know, news

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<v Speaker 3>dot com and the Telegraph and all these people that

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<v Speaker 3>paraded for this legislation. They will go the complete opposite

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<v Speaker 3>way in eighteen months from now and talk about all

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<v Speaker 3>of the kids that are on there because of these loopholes.

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<v Speaker 3>But they're not willing to talk about the loopholes today

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<v Speaker 3>before the legislation comes in. It's hilarious to me and

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<v Speaker 3>I sit by. Here's the other question. I've got a

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<v Speaker 3>thirteen and fourteen year old. Are they excluded from social

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<v Speaker 3>media as of December or because they've already got accounts,

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<v Speaker 3>can they continue to use it? Good poetically, don't know

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<v Speaker 3>what to tell my kids. I literally don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Know that wonderful phrase is had grandfathered in. That's very interesting, Trevor,

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate your time and comments. Thanks for coming on program. Okay, mate,

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<v Speaker 1>Trevor Long, technology guru from EFTM dot com