1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,440 S1: Kazem Hammad rose rapidly to become one of the nation's 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,600 S1: most powerful organized crime players. The syndicate he is accused 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,200 S1: of heading waged a relentless turf war for control of 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:20,400 S1: Australia's multibillion dollar illicit tobacco trade, which has seen firebombings 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,880 S1: around the country. But Hamad's arrest last week was unexpected 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,960 S1: because it happened not in Australia but thousands of kilometres 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,479 S1: away in Iraq. I'm Julia Etzel, filling in for Samantha 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,760 S1: Cylinder Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition from The 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,560 S1: Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, senior reporter Chris 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,840 S1: Vitiligo on the capture of one of Australia's most wanted 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:53,479 S1: accused criminals. It's Tuesday, January 20th. Welcome back to the podcast, Chris. 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,040 S2: Thank you. 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,560 S1: So, Chris, last time you spoke to us about Kazem Hamad, 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,000 S1: it was around the height of the Tobacco wars in 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,530 S1: late 2023 and also around the height of Hamad's powers. 16 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:09,330 S1: How did Hamad, in your view, manage to completely upend 17 00:01:09,370 --> 00:01:12,370 S1: the order of the underworld in such a short amount 18 00:01:12,370 --> 00:01:13,050 S1: of time? 19 00:01:13,250 --> 00:01:15,410 S3: Basically, he was he was born in a rock. He 20 00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:17,170 S3: lived in a rock in the time of Saddam Hussein. 21 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:19,090 S3: His family came over as a result of what was 22 00:01:19,090 --> 00:01:22,530 S3: going there. He arrived when he was 14, pretty much 23 00:01:22,569 --> 00:01:25,929 S3: almost immediately became a trouble. Like a problem. He's a 24 00:01:25,930 --> 00:01:30,330 S3: lifelong criminal. It's fair to say he originally got arrested 25 00:01:30,330 --> 00:01:34,530 S3: for drug trafficking heroin in 2015, and he went to 26 00:01:34,569 --> 00:01:38,290 S3: prison for eight years. And in that eight years, he 27 00:01:38,290 --> 00:01:42,569 S3: became inside a massive figure, which also goes to the 28 00:01:42,569 --> 00:01:44,569 S3: heart of what's wrong with the prison system, where somebody 29 00:01:44,569 --> 00:01:47,289 S3: can be a high security prisoner that goes out ten 30 00:01:47,290 --> 00:01:50,730 S3: times more powerful than they went in. During his time 31 00:01:50,730 --> 00:01:53,090 S3: in prison, he'd come up with a plan, and he 32 00:01:53,090 --> 00:01:56,810 S3: recognized that the tobacco market was extraordinarily lucrative because of taxes. 33 00:01:56,810 --> 00:01:59,930 S3: But it was wasn't particularly organized. And some some of 34 00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:02,340 S3: the long standing players had gotten quite comfortable in the 35 00:02:02,340 --> 00:02:04,660 S3: position that they were in, and he realized if he 36 00:02:04,660 --> 00:02:07,460 S3: applied a lot of pressure really fast, he could take 37 00:02:07,460 --> 00:02:11,900 S3: control of the market, intimidate rivals, force shop owners and 38 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:15,380 S3: wholesalers of an illegal product, basically to work for him. 39 00:02:16,139 --> 00:02:19,300 S3: And so, through a succession of dozens of firebombings and 40 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:23,340 S3: allegedly shootings and a few murders, he basically forced a 41 00:02:23,340 --> 00:02:26,100 S3: new order by going further and faster and harder than 42 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:29,380 S3: anyone else. And it was a real take no prisoners approach. 43 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:32,340 S1: And so, for those who aren't aware of the tobacco 44 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:34,579 S1: wars here in Melbourne, can you just give us a 45 00:02:34,580 --> 00:02:37,380 S1: brief kind of history of of what we're seeing here, 46 00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:39,179 S1: what we've seen over the past two years? 47 00:02:39,220 --> 00:02:40,580 S2: Sure. Look, tobacco. 48 00:02:40,620 --> 00:02:45,220 S3: Has always been partially an illicit market because the taxes 49 00:02:45,220 --> 00:02:47,700 S3: in Australia are so high. In the last decade, the 50 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:50,419 S3: taxes have gone sky high. So that's something that was 51 00:02:50,419 --> 00:02:55,420 S3: once worth $20, is now worth $55. Basically, what's the 52 00:02:55,419 --> 00:02:58,780 S3: illegal market saw was that there was a huge opportunity 53 00:02:58,820 --> 00:03:01,870 S3: for a massive amount of profit if they began distributing 54 00:03:01,910 --> 00:03:05,270 S3: illegally sourced cigarettes overseas. And so that's what they did. 55 00:03:05,270 --> 00:03:08,070 S3: They flooded the market with containers and containers and containers 56 00:03:08,070 --> 00:03:11,030 S3: that would hold 10 or 15 million cigarettes. They only 57 00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:13,149 S3: needed 1 in 20 1 in 30 to get through 58 00:03:13,150 --> 00:03:15,910 S3: in order to make a profit. And the upside for 59 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:18,590 S3: them as well is, unlike cocaine or methamphetamine, if you 60 00:03:18,590 --> 00:03:21,390 S3: get busted with a container of cigarettes, you'd be lucky 61 00:03:21,389 --> 00:03:23,669 S3: to get a few months or a years jail and 62 00:03:23,669 --> 00:03:26,149 S3: probably a fine, which you're never going to pay. Whereas 63 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:28,109 S3: you do 20 kilos of coke, you're going to jail 64 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:31,710 S3: for 20 years. There was no real regulation. I mean, 65 00:03:31,750 --> 00:03:33,709 S3: the Australian Border Force was stopping it at the border, 66 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:36,670 S3: but it was a very low priority compared to people 67 00:03:36,670 --> 00:03:41,150 S3: trafficking or drugs or guns. And there was this basically 68 00:03:41,150 --> 00:03:47,470 S3: this kink in the market that they exploited nationwide. These 69 00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:50,470 S3: places started popping up everywhere, these illegal tobacconists. And there's 70 00:03:50,470 --> 00:03:52,990 S3: something like 1300 in the state of Victoria right now. 71 00:03:53,310 --> 00:03:56,110 S3: And the way the extortion worked was basically a couple 72 00:03:56,150 --> 00:03:58,070 S3: of guys would walk into a shop owned by some 73 00:03:58,070 --> 00:04:01,240 S3: regular person and say, look, you work for us now? 74 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,200 S3: You pay 2000. Originally it was a month tax. A 75 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,200 S3: protection tax. Now it was. Now it's $5,000 a month. 76 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,040 S3: And they say here on the end of this phone 77 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,800 S3: is someone that wants to talk to you. And that 78 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,200 S3: person often, as we heard from court proceedings, turned out 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,800 S3: to be Kassem, who says this is our territory. You 80 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,760 S3: want to work here, you pay the tax, you buy 81 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,560 S3: the cigarettes off of us. You don't listen. Your place 82 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,839 S3: gets burned. You don't listen. It gets burned again. You 83 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,240 S3: don't listen and you get shot. 84 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,839 S4: Melbourne's tobacco war is taking its toll, with eight firebombing 85 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,000 S4: attacks in just seven days. 86 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,960 S3: Very direct, very brazen. Often captured on CCTV. Funnily enough, 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,680 S3: there's heaps of it out there from Victoria Police where 88 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,520 S3: these guys just walk in and they say, this is 89 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,080 S3: our place now. And that's how it worked. And it 90 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,159 S3: became very much almost a franchise model. If you paid, 91 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,600 S3: then you were able to operate in a particular area, 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,760 S3: and other shops that tried to open up would get 93 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,000 S3: shut down. And then there's shops that the syndicate that 94 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,960 S3: Hamad controls directly owns as well. Like they run their 95 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,280 S3: own shops, hundreds of. 96 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,060 S1: Them and they're all over the country. 97 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:04,779 S3: All over the country. There's 1300 in Victoria. There's hundreds 98 00:05:04,779 --> 00:05:08,740 S3: in New South Wales, hundreds in Queensland, either directly controlled 99 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:11,380 S3: or as part of this kind of extortion network, who 100 00:05:11,380 --> 00:05:14,060 S3: pay the tax and get distributed the illegal product when 101 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:16,580 S3: it comes off the docks. And we know for a fact, 102 00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:19,460 S3: because we've seen people arrested that far down the coast 103 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:22,420 S3: there in the deep Gippsland, and there's a member of 104 00:05:22,420 --> 00:05:25,380 S3: an organised crime family running a tobacco shop in a 105 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:27,020 S3: town that the only other thing there is a pub 106 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:30,620 S3: and a post office. Like that's it. And they go 107 00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:32,700 S3: to the trouble of setting up there and then standing 108 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:34,420 S3: over the people around them in the town saying, you 109 00:05:34,420 --> 00:05:37,380 S3: can't sell tobacco. This is our area. We've got places 110 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:40,980 S3: near me. They're all over the place. They're open 24 hours. 111 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:43,780 S3: They have tobacco on the sign outside. You go in there, 112 00:05:43,779 --> 00:05:47,020 S3: they don't sell. They don't even bother to sell legal cigarettes. 113 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:53,940 S1: And there's been not only shop owners stood over, but 114 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:58,100 S1: completely innocent bystanders who have been victims in this war 115 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:00,140 S1: over the tobacco trade. Right? 116 00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:02,590 S3: Well, look, sometimes these fires, they force people out of 117 00:06:02,589 --> 00:06:06,270 S3: apartments and homes. Basically the first the first firebombing recorded 118 00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:09,349 S3: that's attributed to this so-called tobacco war was, was March 119 00:06:09,350 --> 00:06:12,230 S3: of 2023. And it was kind of a slow start. 120 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:16,670 S3: By August of 2023, we were seeing multiple fires a week. 121 00:06:17,150 --> 00:06:19,390 S3: They went on for over a year, and it was 122 00:06:19,430 --> 00:06:22,910 S3: primarily tobacco shops, but then some restaurants, some people's houses. 123 00:06:23,190 --> 00:06:25,990 S3: It was primarily one sided in one direction about who 124 00:06:25,990 --> 00:06:29,150 S3: was doing it and why. And alongside that came the 125 00:06:29,190 --> 00:06:32,790 S3: public murder of a number of of figures shot in 126 00:06:32,790 --> 00:06:35,030 S3: the street, shot in a car parking lot, that sort 127 00:06:35,029 --> 00:06:38,190 S3: of thing. And along the way, there's been innocent victims. 128 00:06:38,430 --> 00:06:42,870 S3: Katie Tanji was murdered by accident in January of 2025. 129 00:06:42,910 --> 00:06:44,830 S3: It was a case of mistaken identity. I mean, they 130 00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:46,550 S3: don't even believe they were in the right suburb. And 131 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:49,150 S3: they burned the wrong house. And this poor woman died. 132 00:06:49,390 --> 00:06:53,990 S4: Katie Tansey's heartbroken mother says she's lost her best friend, 133 00:06:54,070 --> 00:06:57,790 S4: a beautiful soul who was happiest on stage. 134 00:06:58,790 --> 00:07:04,000 S3: Part of of Kaz's M.O. has been to seek revenge 135 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,039 S3: or to take out both personal and business enemies, a 136 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,080 S3: long standing enemy of his. Something like ten years was 137 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,760 S3: Sam the Punisher. Abdul Rahim was a like a former 138 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:19,440 S3: bikie turned boxer. He crossed Caz in 2015 over the piece. 139 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,119 S3: There's been something like 18 attempts on his life or 140 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,800 S3: attacks on his family members. Firebombings Bashings shootings. Um, and 141 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,120 S3: then the Punisher was killed in a parking garage in 142 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,520 S3: Preston in January of 2025, about a year ago, actually, 143 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,320 S3: and that's largely attributed to to Hamad and the pressure 144 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:36,760 S3: that him and his crew put on him. 145 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,000 S5: Basically described this as an ambush style attack on one 146 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,760 S5: of Melbourne's most notorious gangland figures. It has been incredibly 147 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:45,840 S5: tense now. 148 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,320 S1: Hamad was arrested last week in Baghdad. Before we get 149 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,120 S1: to his arrest, why was he in Iraq? 150 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,280 S3: So after he served eight years for heroin trafficking, he was, um, 151 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,559 S3: he finished his prison sentence in July of 2023. And 152 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,090 S3: because he was a permanent resident but never a citizen. 153 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:05,930 S3: He was immediately marked for deportation. And so basically, the 154 00:08:05,930 --> 00:08:08,410 S3: day that his sentence was up, they put him in 155 00:08:08,410 --> 00:08:09,970 S3: a van. They took him to the airport, they put 156 00:08:09,970 --> 00:08:12,170 S3: him on a plane and they sent him back. He 157 00:08:12,170 --> 00:08:14,050 S3: was determined not to. To stay in Iraq for a 158 00:08:14,050 --> 00:08:16,530 S3: little while. So he moved to Dubai. But things got 159 00:08:16,530 --> 00:08:17,770 S3: a little hot there, and he got kicked out of 160 00:08:17,770 --> 00:08:20,050 S3: Dubai by the authorities and went back to Iraq. And 161 00:08:20,050 --> 00:08:22,650 S3: what basically happened was he was living in a fortified 162 00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:26,970 S3: compound in Baghdad, surrounded by security. He had supposedly the 163 00:08:26,970 --> 00:08:30,090 S3: protection of certain elements in the Iraqi military and internal 164 00:08:30,090 --> 00:08:33,690 S3: security services. And his business model was very much to 165 00:08:33,730 --> 00:08:37,050 S3: run the syndicate or the crime empire from Iraq, but 166 00:08:37,050 --> 00:08:40,770 S3: it was focused on Australia. So they weren't really committing 167 00:08:40,770 --> 00:08:43,730 S3: crimes in Iraq. They were looking at basically running the streets, 168 00:08:43,770 --> 00:08:47,290 S3: running the markets in Australia from a third country, which 169 00:08:47,290 --> 00:08:51,610 S3: has a history of really bad relations with Australia because 170 00:08:51,610 --> 00:08:55,370 S3: of the war. And for a long time, I mean, 171 00:08:55,370 --> 00:08:58,370 S3: I wrote it myself about a year ago. He was untouchable, 172 00:08:58,410 --> 00:08:59,609 S3: or so we believed. 173 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:02,380 S1: And he was untouchable because of his, as you say, 174 00:09:02,420 --> 00:09:05,579 S1: networks in Iraq and then his mass amount of wealth 175 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,780 S1: and influence. So if he was so untouchable and invulnerable 176 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:11,980 S1: to authorities, what changed? What happened? 177 00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:12,939 S6: Well, this is what was so. 178 00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:15,699 S3: Surprising about what happened last week was because we were 179 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:18,179 S3: always under the impression that whatever he was doing, he 180 00:09:18,179 --> 00:09:21,580 S3: was doing in Australia, he wasn't committing crimes in Iraq, 181 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,500 S3: but the Iraqi judicial authorities. And the system is very 182 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:28,060 S3: different over there versus the way it works here. But 183 00:09:28,059 --> 00:09:32,700 S3: basically a, a cadre of judges came to the decision 184 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,220 S3: that he needed to be investigated. They had been given 185 00:09:35,220 --> 00:09:39,420 S3: intelligence information from Australian law enforcement. They acted on that intelligence. 186 00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:41,780 S3: And according to what the Iraqis have said publicly in 187 00:09:41,780 --> 00:09:44,939 S3: a statement, they believe that Hamad was engaged in serious 188 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:48,620 S3: criminal activity inside Iraq, including some kind of drug activity, 189 00:09:48,940 --> 00:09:53,819 S3: which in Iraq is a very serious crime punishable by death. 190 00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:58,699 S3: And so last Tuesday, the Judicial Council of Iraq basically 191 00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:00,900 S3: announced that they had arrested him on drug trafficking charges 192 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:04,429 S3: or drug related charges, which changed the entire game. 193 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:09,670 S7: Iraq's Supreme Judicial Council has confirmed that it has arrested 194 00:10:09,710 --> 00:10:15,110 S7: Khadim Malik Hammad Rabeh Al-hussaini, which the Australian Federal Police 195 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:19,630 S7: has confirmed is the same person as Kazem when. 196 00:10:19,630 --> 00:10:22,190 S3: He was committing crimes in Australia and Australians were maybe 197 00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:24,189 S3: telling the Iraqis about it, it didn't seem to be 198 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:27,870 S3: much pressure. And also the Australian authorities were very reluctant 199 00:10:27,870 --> 00:10:31,390 S3: to apply pressure because of this death penalty issue. But 200 00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:33,990 S3: something shifted and the Iraqis got involved and now he's 201 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:36,510 S3: in custody. It's been almost a week, and as far 202 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:38,230 S3: as we know, he's still in custody, but we have 203 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:39,350 S3: no idea of what's happening. 204 00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:43,270 S1: And so what are the next steps? Will Hamad be 205 00:10:43,270 --> 00:10:47,349 S1: extradited to Australia or could he be prosecuted in Iraq? 206 00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:49,030 S6: This is the big question. 207 00:10:49,070 --> 00:10:53,110 S3: Um, because there's several ways this can go. The Iraqis 208 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:56,470 S3: can choose to deal with him domestically, as in, basically 209 00:10:56,470 --> 00:11:01,320 S3: charge him, try him, and whatever happens. They could also 210 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,000 S3: possibly with with an application from Australia, although it's very 211 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,760 S3: convoluted process because there's no official extradition treaty, Australia could 212 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:13,240 S3: attempt to extradite him here. The other option is it 213 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,920 S3: being a rock, is he might pay a massive bribe 214 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,160 S3: and just simply slip away. Um, we're hearing on background 215 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,320 S3: the police would the police in Australia would very much 216 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,800 S3: like this to be dealt with in Iraq? Because it 217 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,320 S3: obviously makes things a lot simpler for him. The last 218 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,120 S3: time he was in Australia and he was in a 219 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,480 S3: high security prison, he was, it turns out, almost unmanageable 220 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,240 S3: in the sense that he was able to build an 221 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,679 S3: empire under the nose of Corrections Victoria, where he basically 222 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,079 S3: walked out the door and picked up a fully fledged 223 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,959 S3: criminal empire on his way out. Not a good look 224 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,840 S3: for corrections, Victoria, and I can only imagine what a 225 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,280 S3: nightmare it would be if they brought him back and 226 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,640 S3: had to manage him in that environment again. But it's 227 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,120 S3: an open question. We just don't know. And the system 228 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,600 S3: over there is very hard to decipher. It's very different 229 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,450 S3: to ours. It's also in Arabic and we don't really 230 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:03,250 S3: understand what the ground rules are, but we're trying to 231 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:04,849 S3: find out what happens next. 232 00:12:06,730 --> 00:12:07,650 S1: After the break. 233 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:11,370 S3: They are feared. They are well motivated. They are extraordinarily 234 00:12:11,370 --> 00:12:14,090 S3: well resourced. And the idea that this is all just 235 00:12:14,090 --> 00:12:16,570 S3: going to topple over like a Hollywood movie, it just doesn't. 236 00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:17,570 S3: I don't see it. 237 00:12:27,290 --> 00:12:29,209 S1: Last time we spoke to you about this topic, Chris, 238 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:32,650 S1: you said that these underworld wars only really stop when 239 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:36,530 S1: two things happen. Either all the players are arrested or 240 00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:39,850 S1: all the players are dead. Do you think that Hamad's 241 00:12:39,850 --> 00:12:44,290 S1: arrest will have any significant effect on Melbourne's underworld wars? 242 00:12:44,330 --> 00:12:45,890 S3: You know, when he was arrested, there was a lot 243 00:12:45,890 --> 00:12:47,810 S3: of chatter out there that this was the end of 244 00:12:47,809 --> 00:12:52,050 S3: of his syndicate. I don't necessarily think that's true. As 245 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:55,210 S3: we wrote last week, this isn't just some kind of 246 00:12:55,809 --> 00:13:00,530 S3: garage operation that he set up when he moved to Iraq. 247 00:13:00,809 --> 00:13:04,460 S3: They decentralize the organization so that his second in command 248 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:06,980 S3: was in a completely different country than he was. He's 249 00:13:06,980 --> 00:13:09,700 S3: in Iraq. His second in command is in Iran or 250 00:13:09,860 --> 00:13:13,020 S3: may now be elsewhere in the Middle East. Our understanding 251 00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:15,500 S3: of this was it was done in order to prevent 252 00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:19,059 S3: law enforcement or anything. If something happened to one of them, 253 00:13:19,059 --> 00:13:22,579 S3: the other side still can continue until whatever the problem 254 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:25,140 S3: is for the person who's arrested gets sorted out. So 255 00:13:25,179 --> 00:13:26,940 S3: the idea that this thing is going to topple over 256 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:29,900 S3: on itself overnight, I just don't see it. There's also 257 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:33,260 S3: they've put in a substantial amount of work on building 258 00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:36,180 S3: an infrastructure. I mean, there's something like 100 guys that 259 00:13:36,179 --> 00:13:40,780 S3: report to this organization domestically and internationally. They are feared. 260 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:44,620 S3: They are well motivated. They are extraordinarily well resourced. And 261 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:46,460 S3: the idea that this is all just going to topple 262 00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:48,780 S3: over like a Hollywood movie, it just doesn't I don't 263 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:49,380 S3: see it. 264 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:53,699 S1: And we do know that Victoria is planning to ramp 265 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:57,900 S1: up its crackdown from next month on tobacco. Can you 266 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,860 S1: tell us what changes are expected and if you think 267 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:02,239 S1: they'll make any difference. 268 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,400 S3: So basically, from the 1st of February, any place that 269 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,800 S3: sells tobacco in Victoria needs to have a licence. That 270 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,600 S3: doesn't matter if it's a Coles or like a kiosk 271 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,880 S3: inside a shopping centre or one of these illicit tobacco 272 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,440 S3: shops or a gas station, they all have to have 273 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,320 S3: a licence. Um, with the intention that there's going to 274 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,640 S3: be these guys that go around from this new tobacco 275 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,120 S3: Licensing Victoria organisation checking for licences. And if you don't 276 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,600 S3: have a licence or you're selling an illegal product, they're 277 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,400 S3: going to find you and you know, you'll go through 278 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,359 S3: the system and get jail or what have you. That's 279 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,920 S3: that's the idea in principle. Now there's a couple of 280 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,120 S3: problems with the system, the way the government set it up. 281 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,880 S3: Number one, they could find somebody and the next day 282 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,920 S3: the shop opens up again because they don't have powers 283 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,280 S3: to close it. And the one thing these guys have 284 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600 S3: learned from having their shops burned out and threatened is 285 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,680 S3: you don't keep $1 million worth of stock in the 286 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,760 S3: back of the shop. It comes by in a white 287 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,320 S3: van every couple of days in small batches. The other 288 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,760 S3: part of the problem is a lot of the people 289 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,160 S3: that work in these illegal tobacco shops, they're paid out 290 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,370 S3: of the day's takings. They don't know who they're working for. 291 00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:06,290 S3: And if it opens up three doors down, three doors 292 00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:09,810 S3: down doesn't make any difference. The other problem is, for 293 00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:12,490 S3: some reason, the state government has decided to hire only 294 00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:15,730 S3: 14 inspectors for a state the size of Victoria, where 295 00:15:15,730 --> 00:15:20,410 S3: there's something like 8000 tobacco selling shops. 1300 of which 296 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:23,050 S3: are illegal, that we know about the scale of what 297 00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:25,090 S3: the tobacco licensing authorities are going to have to deal 298 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:27,410 S3: with is enormous, because this problem has been allowed to 299 00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:30,890 S3: fester for years. I go out and do mystery, buy 300 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,730 S3: things all the time, find out where the price is at, 301 00:15:32,730 --> 00:15:34,170 S3: and in order to do that, you can't walk into 302 00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:35,810 S3: these places and go. Excuse me, sir, how much is 303 00:15:35,810 --> 00:15:38,450 S3: a pack of cigarettes? I buy cigarettes and I talk 304 00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:40,050 S3: to the people that run them and they do not 305 00:15:40,050 --> 00:15:43,170 S3: seem concerned. That being said, things are not going to 306 00:15:43,170 --> 00:15:44,850 S3: be as blatant as they were. The signs are going 307 00:15:44,890 --> 00:15:46,210 S3: to come down. They're going to be a little bit 308 00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:49,890 S3: more subtle. I mean, it had gotten so brazen that 309 00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:52,610 S3: the cigarettes were on display next to the vapes, next 310 00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:56,130 S3: to the nicotine patches, next to the nangs. Like it's 311 00:15:56,130 --> 00:15:58,850 S3: all just sitting on the counter now. Before, it used 312 00:15:58,850 --> 00:16:01,380 S3: to be behind, like a towel or under the table. 313 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,300 S3: That brazenness is going to stop. But these guys who 314 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:07,220 S3: have invested to open these shops are not going to 315 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:10,420 S3: stop selling cigarettes. So they're going to find alternative distribution channels. 316 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:13,460 S3: And there's already places with it's just a steel roller door. 317 00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:16,140 S3: You show up on a Tuesday night at 6 p.m., 318 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:19,060 S3: the door goes up, you buy five cartons of cigarettes 319 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:20,940 S3: and two cartons of vapes, and you're on your way. 320 00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:23,100 S3: And these aren't criminals that are doing it. These are 321 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,140 S3: regular working people that are that are accessing this system 322 00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:31,300 S3: because tobacco products and nicotine products in Australia are so expensive. 323 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,820 S1: Well, we'll definitely be watching this very closely, Chris. So 324 00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:36,300 S1: thank you so much for your time today. 325 00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:37,380 S3: No worries. Thank you. 326 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:43,860 S1: In other news, today, Opposition Leader Sussan Ley will work 327 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:47,140 S1: with Prime Minister Anthony Albanese to pass a watered down 328 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:52,500 S1: hate crimes bill overriding the Nationals and Conservative coalition backbenchers. 329 00:16:52,820 --> 00:16:56,620 S1: Albanese split his bill in two to salvage political support 330 00:16:56,620 --> 00:17:00,900 S1: before this week's two day parliamentary sitting. One bill is 331 00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:04,629 S1: now centered on gun restrictions and will be passed with 332 00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:09,109 S1: green support. Australian tennis star Alex de Minaur has effortlessly 333 00:17:09,109 --> 00:17:12,670 S1: clinched his first round match of the Australian Open against 334 00:17:12,670 --> 00:17:17,590 S1: American Mackenzie McDonald, winning in straight sets. And in an 335 00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:22,470 S1: exclusive interview with our mastheads, MAGA loyalist Steve Bannon says 336 00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:26,670 S1: US President Donald Trump will seek an unconstitutional third term 337 00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:31,030 S1: in 2028 to, quote, save the country. You can read 338 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:37,429 S1: these stories and more on the ajc.com or smh.com.au. Today's 339 00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:42,310 S1: episode was produced by me, Julia Katzel. Our executive producer 340 00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:46,030 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 341 00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:49,830 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 342 00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:52,350 S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 343 00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:54,869 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.