1 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,080 S1: For decades, the World Cup has carried fans from all 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,520 S1: over the world to great heights of unity and joy 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,200 S1: in a way that is perhaps unique to an event 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,360 S1: that sees strangers drinking a foreign pub dry together and 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,520 S1: reveling in the strange and wonderful offerings at the local 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:32,200 S1: grocery store while witnessing incredible feats of football. But a 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,080 S1: maelstrom of complications threatened the sense of inclusion this year, 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,560 S1: not least of all because for the first time, one 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,120 S1: team's country is currently at war with its host country. 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,960 S1: I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,040 S1: Edition from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,560 S1: deputy and investigations editor Nick Ralston on the joy and 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: tension he witnessed on the ground at World Cup matches 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,740 S1: in the United States and Canada. And yes, that viral 15 00:01:02,780 --> 00:01:12,780 S1: Aussie chant about Donald Trump. It's July the 15th. Welcome, Nick, 16 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:13,740 S1: back to the podcast. 17 00:01:13,780 --> 00:01:14,580 S2: It's good to be here. 18 00:01:15,340 --> 00:01:18,020 S1: Okay. Now, you just spent a month going to World 19 00:01:18,020 --> 00:01:21,220 S1: Cup games in the US, also in Canada. And I 20 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:23,660 S1: just wanted to ask you, what was the expectation as 21 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:27,060 S1: you were heading over there? Like was this expectation that 22 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:29,819 S1: that this event in particular brings people together from all 23 00:01:29,819 --> 00:01:32,020 S1: around the world, unites them in some way? 24 00:01:32,340 --> 00:01:35,539 S2: Well, FIFA likes to promote itself as football unites. I 25 00:01:35,540 --> 00:01:38,380 S2: think there was sort of a bit of apprehension, a 26 00:01:38,380 --> 00:01:41,620 S2: bit of angst about how the 2026 FIFA World Cup 27 00:01:41,620 --> 00:01:44,700 S2: would probably play out. You know, the World Cup's got 28 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:48,900 S2: a long history of sort of having this political overtones. 29 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:51,140 S2: You know, you go back to 1930, even when the 30 00:01:51,140 --> 00:01:53,820 S2: very first World Cup tournament that was hosted by Uruguay 31 00:01:53,820 --> 00:01:56,780 S2: was sort of used as a nation building sort of 32 00:01:56,820 --> 00:01:59,620 S2: exercise that had sort of, you know, three decades or 33 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:01,920 S2: so of Civil War. And then they get to host this, 34 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,280 S2: you know, first ever world football tournament, which they also 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,480 S2: famously won. You go to sort of 1934, where Mussolini 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,200 S2: used it as a bit of a propaganda tool for 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,640 S2: his fascist regime. I think there's even sort of reports of, uh, 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,520 S2: it being sort of the first World Cup where there 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,079 S2: was World Cup merchandise, where the fascist logo appeared on 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,920 S2: some of that. Um, you know, and it's got a 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,720 S2: long history of sort of being this, uh, uh, political 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,880 S2: device as well as a footballing one. You know, 1978, 43 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,400 S2: I think is the most controversial World Cup, uh, where 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,840 S2: the military junta in Argentina, you know, there was corruption, 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,760 S2: you know, match fixing and sort of seen as a 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,000 S2: sort of a form of sports washing before it was 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,600 S2: really a phrase back then to sort of try and 48 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,679 S2: legitimize the regime there that was also sort of, you know, 49 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,480 S2: oppressing and killing, uh, a number of its opponents. And then, 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,160 S2: you know, more recent times you had Russia in 2018, 51 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,240 S2: which was obviously a controversial choice as Putin tried to 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:04,740 S2: sort of show Russia as this, you know, open, modern, uh, accepting, uh, society, uh, 53 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:07,419 S2: with all the other sort of, uh, stuff playing out 54 00:03:07,419 --> 00:03:09,660 S2: in the background. And then Qatar, which had its own, 55 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:12,139 S2: you know, it was the sort of real sportswashing tournament 56 00:03:12,139 --> 00:03:15,300 S2: as it tried to become a legitimate host nation. So 57 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:19,540 S2: 2026 was awarded, I think, in 2016, ten years ago. 58 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:21,660 S2: And I think at the time, everyone was sort of 59 00:03:21,700 --> 00:03:25,180 S2: expecting that a return to North America, the US had 60 00:03:25,180 --> 00:03:29,580 S2: hosted the tournament, uh, quite famously in 1994. I think 61 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:31,700 S2: everyone thought the 2026 was going to be a return 62 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:34,500 S2: to sort of some sort of normality, or at least 63 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:37,900 S2: some sort of, um, a more simple way of, of 64 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:40,500 S2: hosting a tournament. They weren't going to build big new stadiums. 65 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:43,060 S2: They were going to use existing infrastructure. It was going 66 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:47,100 S2: to be shared across three countries, sort of united all together. 67 00:03:47,420 --> 00:03:50,100 S2: But a lot happened in those ten years since, uh, 68 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:53,420 S2: North America and North America were awarded it. And so 69 00:03:53,420 --> 00:03:57,180 S2: I think, look, I think myself flying into North America, 70 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:00,080 S2: there was sort of apprehension about what to expect. A 71 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,119 S2: lot was made about visas. There was a lot made 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,200 S2: about ticket prices, about just general expenses towards this World 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,400 S2: Cup and how it would go. It wasn't helped. I 74 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,160 S2: think on the eve of the tournament, I think even 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,440 S2: the day or two days before it kicked off, the 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,479 S2: US rejected the visa application for a Somali refugee who 77 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,560 S2: had been appointed by FIFA. Sort of. One of the 78 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,160 S2: top referees in Africa was told he wasn't allowed into 79 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,800 S2: the country. And I think everyone was sort of bracing 80 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,000 S2: themselves as to what to expect. But as the World 81 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,200 S2: Cup's known to do, once the sort of the first 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,080 S2: whistle goes, and once we started watching, you know, Mexico 83 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,760 S2: play in the Azteca Stadium in Mexico City against South Africa, uh, 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,440 S2: you know, early goals, lots of red cards. The focus 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,680 S2: very quickly turned to football. And I think, uh, for 86 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,719 S2: much of the four weeks so far, the focus has 87 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,280 S2: really been on football with, you know, with a few exceptions. 88 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,320 S1: Okay. So can you tell us, I guess, some of 89 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,799 S1: the moments that you witnessed on the ground that really 90 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:02,340 S1: did sort of bring about a unity or perhaps celebration 91 00:05:02,339 --> 00:05:05,940 S1: of fans from different teams or, you know, sporting solidarity 92 00:05:05,940 --> 00:05:08,260 S1: or moments like, were there many moments like that on 93 00:05:08,260 --> 00:05:11,660 S1: the ground despite all of what you've just said, which is, 94 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:15,460 S1: you know, slight feelings of trepidation given the Trump administration's 95 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:20,180 S1: restrictive immigration policies and people being denied visas. Like, were 96 00:05:20,180 --> 00:05:23,860 S1: there still those moments of unity that FIFA sort of promises? But, 97 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:24,380 S1: you know. 98 00:05:24,779 --> 00:05:26,940 S2: Yeah, once once the tournament itself kicked off, I think 99 00:05:26,940 --> 00:05:29,620 S2: all of that has faded massively into the background. I 100 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:32,580 S2: think this is sort of a been very much a 101 00:05:33,020 --> 00:05:36,140 S2: a fan driven World Cup. You know, FIFA will take 102 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:38,060 S2: a lot of the credits. Uh, you know, we've seen 103 00:05:38,060 --> 00:05:41,140 S2: record crowds, record number of goals. We are obviously seeing 104 00:05:41,140 --> 00:05:44,900 S2: more matches. Um, but it has really been the fans 105 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:46,860 S2: for me as someone who was there for four weeks 106 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:50,180 S2: that have really made this World Cup, it's had 16 107 00:05:50,180 --> 00:05:53,619 S2: different sort of host cities. So it's been very well 108 00:05:53,660 --> 00:05:56,180 S2: spread out. But you've seen some, you know, pretty remarkable 109 00:05:56,180 --> 00:05:59,400 S2: things happen. You've seen Scotland in their first World Cup 110 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,080 S2: since 1998, taking over Boston, you know, literally drinking the 111 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:12,200 S2: city dry. You've seen sort of, you know, Japanese fans 112 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,200 S2: down in Dallas trying Texas barbecue for the first time 113 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,720 S2: and being amazed by that. You've seen Norwegian fans on 114 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,000 S2: the New York subway performing there, you know, now infamous 115 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,520 S2: Viking Row as they went down the escalators into the 116 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,200 S2: New York subway. And so it's been a very well 117 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,920 S2: spread out tournament. You've seen lots of, I guess, parts 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,720 S2: of America. I think I was reading before that the 119 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,760 S2: Spanish team, you know, one of the favorites of the 120 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,600 S2: tournament have been based at, at, at at Chattanooga in Tennessee, uh, where, 121 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,080 S2: you know, locals have been able to come out and watch, 122 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,360 S2: you know, some of the best footballers in the world 123 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,039 S2: train out there. One of the Kansas university's learned the 124 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,960 S2: one of the marching bands, learnt the how to perform 125 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,099 S2: the Algerian national anthem because the Algerians were based out 126 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:05,900 S2: of Kansas University as well. The Socceroos themselves were based 127 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:10,900 S2: out in in Oakland, just outside of San Francisco, an 128 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:14,140 S2: area sort of a bit down on its luck in 129 00:07:14,140 --> 00:07:17,820 S2: terms of sporting teams. They've, you know, lost an NFL team, uh, 130 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:21,100 S2: moved to Vegas. The Golden State Warriors NBA team moved 131 00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:24,860 S2: into San Fran. So the Oakland residents really embraced the 132 00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:27,780 S2: Socceroos as well. So it's sort of been this sort of, 133 00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:32,220 S2: I guess, mix of fans from around the world coming 134 00:07:32,220 --> 00:07:36,700 S2: into America and Canada into probably areas that they might 135 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:39,980 S2: not have been previously. And also people in America probably 136 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:44,180 S2: being exposed to, to fans and cultures that they might 137 00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:47,660 S2: not previously have expected to be exposed to either. 138 00:07:47,860 --> 00:07:49,180 S3: Okay. So can you just, I guess. 139 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:51,180 S1: Break it down for us as someone who's been there 140 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:54,580 S1: on the ground, what is that World Cup fever like? 141 00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:57,780 S1: What is it that sort of brings this spirit of, 142 00:07:57,780 --> 00:08:01,640 S1: I guess, just unfettered joy among people who barrack for 143 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,320 S1: different teams whose countries might be at odds, uh, in 144 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,880 S1: very serious ways over the generations. Like, what is that? 145 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,960 S2: Yeah. Look, I think it is kind of strange. I've 146 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,720 S2: been I've been trying to think about this as sort 147 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,320 S2: of we talk about Australian sport and Australian sport for 148 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,440 S2: mine is, is very tribal. You know, there's a lot 149 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,160 S2: of heated rivalries and tension between it all. I think 150 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,280 S2: there's a different atmosphere, uh, in a World Cup. I mean, 151 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,040 S2: I guess if you you have to be realistic about it. 152 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,000 S2: There's probably only a handful of nations that, you know, 153 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,200 S2: were ever going to be a chance of, of, of 154 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,719 S2: lifting the trophy. So I think there is this expectation 155 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,400 S2: that everyone goes there to support their nation, to show 156 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,600 S2: a bit of pride, but really to enjoy themselves. And 157 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,320 S2: in the hope that that their, their country may, you know, 158 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,559 S2: exceed expectations on the field and go further than they, 159 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,719 S2: than they possibly could. But I mean, the Australian fans 160 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,720 S2: gained a bit of notoriety over there for, you know, 161 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,580 S2: obviously some of the chants there was the one which 162 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:09,900 S2: specifically referenced Donald Trump and being a sex offender. There 163 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:11,940 S2: is also the sort of, you know, we're flying home, 164 00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:14,060 S2: you're stuck here chant, which they made at the US. 165 00:09:14,059 --> 00:09:17,020 S2: And there was also that moment in Dallas in the 166 00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:20,260 S2: lead up to the, uh, the tense, uh, morning lead 167 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:22,540 S2: up to the game against Egypt, where a whole lot 168 00:09:22,540 --> 00:09:25,060 S2: of Australian fans took it upon themselves to go into 169 00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:27,940 S2: and take over a Walmart and start their, um, uh, 170 00:09:27,980 --> 00:09:31,500 S2: Aussie boys, uh, chant inside a Walmart, uh, to many 171 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:35,099 S2: shocked shoppers on a, on a early morning in, uh, 172 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:37,020 S2: in Arlington, just outside of Dallas. 173 00:09:38,340 --> 00:09:43,060 S4: Wal mart. Wal mart. 174 00:09:44,660 --> 00:09:47,860 S2: So I think this is this is a real feeling 175 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:51,980 S2: of fun. And you know, there are obviously countries that 176 00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:54,860 S2: go to a World Cup expecting to do well. And 177 00:09:54,860 --> 00:09:56,860 S2: and you know expecting to win. But I think on 178 00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:59,839 S2: the whole I mean, you've seen Mexican fans over there, 179 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,160 S2: sort of. They do this thing where they, you know, 180 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,400 S2: love to pick up a you know, they've been doing 181 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,960 S2: it with TV reporters, but they've been picking up, you know, 182 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,280 S2: rival fans and tossing them up into the air. Just 183 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,120 S2: everyone's celebrating in a way that I think only a 184 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,520 S2: World Cup can really bring people together. 185 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:17,880 S1: After the break. 186 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,600 S2: There's this sort of feeling amongst the the diaspora that 187 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,000 S2: whether or not supporting the football team would also be 188 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,560 S2: supporting the regime, which many are against, but they also 189 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,400 S2: wanted to use the opportunity of Iran playing on the 190 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,559 S2: national stage to have their voices heard. 191 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,520 S5: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire. 192 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,319 S6: And I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced. 193 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,840 S5: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one. 194 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,920 S7: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her. 195 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,120 S7: Her children were her life. 196 00:10:58,250 --> 00:11:02,090 S5: Virginia, a podcast from the newsrooms of the age, The 197 00:11:02,090 --> 00:11:05,490 S5: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today, out now. 198 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:10,250 S3: We have to talk. 199 00:11:10,250 --> 00:11:12,410 S1: About some of the sporting moments either that you witnessed 200 00:11:12,410 --> 00:11:14,730 S1: or that are just absolutely a standout at this particular 201 00:11:14,730 --> 00:11:17,530 S1: World Cup, because I saw in one of the stories 202 00:11:17,530 --> 00:11:20,689 S1: that you wrote, you wrote that there was three megastars 203 00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:25,250 S1: of the tournament Kylian Mbappe, Erling Haaland, Lionel Messi. They 204 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:28,810 S1: all scored multiple goals across three separate stadiums. That must 205 00:11:28,850 --> 00:11:30,930 S1: have just been absolutely incredible. So I guess, what is 206 00:11:30,929 --> 00:11:32,690 S1: it like to be there to see that sort of 207 00:11:32,929 --> 00:11:36,410 S1: star playing on just an incredible scale, and were there 208 00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:38,850 S1: other just moments like that that really lit up this 209 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:39,809 S1: World Cup, I guess? 210 00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:42,850 S2: Yeah, I think that one of the successes of this 211 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:45,210 S2: World Cup has been that all of the, you know, 212 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:47,929 S2: a number of the big footballing superstars, like you said, 213 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:51,050 S2: your Erling Haaland, who seems to have captured the attention 214 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:55,770 S2: of everyone. Ah, this World Cup Kylian Mbappe, you know, 215 00:11:55,809 --> 00:11:58,350 S2: Messi scoring a hat trick days just before he turned 216 00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:01,590 S2: 39 in his sixth World Cup. You know, Harry Kane 217 00:12:01,630 --> 00:12:05,630 S2: of England, Jude Bellingham of England have all really turned 218 00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:09,030 S2: up and performed. We've also got a situation where the 219 00:12:09,070 --> 00:12:13,590 S2: four highest ranked teams in the world are Spain, France, 220 00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:16,510 S2: Argentina and England are the last four teams left in 221 00:12:16,510 --> 00:12:21,550 S2: the tournament. So, uh, it's been, you know, remarkable that that's, 222 00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:24,510 S2: you know, that FIFA has had that outcome for this 223 00:12:24,510 --> 00:12:27,070 S2: World Cup. Some may say, you know, well, there was, 224 00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:29,510 S2: you know, things put in place to make that happen. 225 00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:31,270 S2: But there's been other great moments as well. You know, 226 00:12:31,309 --> 00:12:33,510 S2: I think everyone was sort of captivated by the run of, 227 00:12:33,550 --> 00:12:36,550 S2: you know, Cape Verde in their first World Cup, you know, 228 00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:39,110 S2: a tiny nation making it through to the to the 229 00:12:39,150 --> 00:12:42,750 S2: knockout stages. And, you know, even when when Curacao managed 230 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:45,830 S2: to score its first World Cup goal against Germany, it 231 00:12:45,830 --> 00:12:47,950 S2: was one all against Germany. I think everyone was kind 232 00:12:47,950 --> 00:12:50,510 S2: of shocked that, you know, ended up losing that game 233 00:12:50,510 --> 00:12:52,990 S2: by a fair margin. But there's been moments like that 234 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:56,270 S2: which there was a lot of criticism about, well, maybe 235 00:12:56,270 --> 00:12:58,970 S2: not so much criticism, but concern about whether or not 236 00:12:59,010 --> 00:13:02,970 S2: expanding the World Cup from 48 teams from 32 would 237 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:06,250 S2: see a dilution in the sort of quality of games 238 00:13:06,250 --> 00:13:09,650 S2: and and how the tournament would play out. But I 239 00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:13,569 S2: think largely it's been it's been a massive success. And 240 00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:15,970 S2: for those reasons, you've seen a number of countries that 241 00:13:16,210 --> 00:13:19,570 S2: previously hadn't appeared at World Cups get to play and 242 00:13:19,570 --> 00:13:23,010 S2: and perform pretty well. You've seen other countries, you know, 243 00:13:23,050 --> 00:13:25,930 S2: for a long time, Oceania didn't get an automatic spot 244 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:28,490 S2: in the World Cup. But New Zealand obviously got to 245 00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:32,610 S2: play again at this World Cup. So there's been, I think, 246 00:13:32,610 --> 00:13:35,250 S2: the quality of football. And I think the 48 teams 247 00:13:35,250 --> 00:13:37,329 S2: has worked, which I think has been another highlight. 248 00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:39,090 S3: I wanted to ask. 249 00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:41,530 S1: You about something you wrote about as well, which is 250 00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:44,530 S1: a complicated emotional element of this particular World Cup, which is, 251 00:13:44,530 --> 00:13:48,050 S1: of course, the presence of an Iranian team when, of course, 252 00:13:48,090 --> 00:13:50,130 S1: Iran has been at war with the host country, with 253 00:13:50,130 --> 00:13:52,970 S1: the United States. So what was that tension like on 254 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:53,689 S1: the ground? 255 00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:58,150 S2: Yeah, I didn't really probably fully know what to expect 256 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:00,350 S2: going into this game. So this was the first time 257 00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:03,030 S2: that a that a host nation in the US was 258 00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:06,710 S2: at war or a military conflict with a with a 259 00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:11,030 S2: participating nation in Iran. And they, uh, a lot of 260 00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:12,790 S2: sort of talk in the build up to the tournament. 261 00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:15,310 S2: Iran qualified sort of back in March last year, long 262 00:14:15,309 --> 00:14:18,830 S2: before any of the the strikes by Israel and the 263 00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:22,030 S2: US against Iran had had begun. And there was a 264 00:14:22,030 --> 00:14:23,630 S2: lot of talk about whether or not Iran should be 265 00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:26,510 S2: able to compete in this World Cup. Uh, they were 266 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:29,150 S2: kicked out of their training base, was meant to be 267 00:14:29,150 --> 00:14:33,590 S2: in Arizona. They got moved to Mexico. And so I 268 00:14:33,630 --> 00:14:37,630 S2: went down to, to LA, to the SoFi Stadium, not 269 00:14:37,630 --> 00:14:40,790 S2: really knowing what to expect. But, you know, LA has 270 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:44,870 S2: the largest, uh, Iranian community outside of Tehran or outside 271 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:49,670 S2: of Iran. There's something like 125,000 Iranians living in the area. 272 00:14:50,190 --> 00:14:54,950 S2: And it was a very divided group of people. So 273 00:14:54,950 --> 00:14:59,530 S2: there's this sort of feeling amongst the diaspora that whether 274 00:14:59,530 --> 00:15:03,130 S2: or not supporting the football team would also be supporting 275 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:07,530 S2: the regime, which many are against. But they also wanted 276 00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:10,450 S2: to use the opportunity of Iran playing on the national 277 00:15:10,450 --> 00:15:15,450 S2: stage to have their voices heard. FIFA tried to ban their, 278 00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:18,770 S2: you know, certain flags and symbols from inside the stadium. 279 00:15:18,770 --> 00:15:21,290 S2: So I was sort of outside the stadium. And you'd 280 00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:23,250 S2: speak to, you know, a mother who was there with 281 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:25,370 S2: her son who said, oh, you know, I can't really 282 00:15:25,370 --> 00:15:27,450 S2: support the team. I'm just here to have my voice heard. 283 00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:29,770 S2: And then you turn to her son and he'd say, oh, no, 284 00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:32,130 S2: you know, I'm a former soccer player myself. I know 285 00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:34,490 S2: what these players have done to get here. I support 286 00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:37,450 S2: the team, but I don't support the regime. And I 287 00:15:37,450 --> 00:15:41,010 S2: spoke to another bloke as I was leaving who had spent, 288 00:15:41,010 --> 00:15:43,770 S2: I think it was something like 600 USD to be 289 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:45,770 S2: there just to boo the national anthem and to jeer 290 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:47,650 S2: the team as they ran onto the field. So it 291 00:15:47,650 --> 00:15:54,210 S2: was a very, yeah, complex situation. And, you know, I 292 00:15:54,330 --> 00:15:57,070 S2: sort of sort of almost hard to describe. Literally any. 293 00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:59,190 S2: Every person you spoke to there would have a different 294 00:15:59,190 --> 00:16:02,950 S2: view on the Iranian team and whether or not they 295 00:16:02,950 --> 00:16:04,550 S2: should be competing and whether or not they should be 296 00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:07,430 S2: supporting them. And, and, you know, many others opted to 297 00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:08,910 S2: stay at home because they didn't want to even be 298 00:16:08,950 --> 00:16:10,830 S2: be seen to be part of it. So it was 299 00:16:10,830 --> 00:16:12,550 S2: very complex and difficult situation. 300 00:16:12,830 --> 00:16:14,870 S1: But I'm assuming there was nothing like we saw during 301 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:17,390 S1: that that women's cup here. Of course, famously, there was 302 00:16:17,390 --> 00:16:20,830 S1: a number of, uh, members of the women's team that 303 00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:22,910 S1: were looked like they were in the process of going 304 00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:25,630 S1: to defect. And I believed some of them stayed on 305 00:16:25,630 --> 00:16:29,430 S1: after being granted humanitarian visas. But there was nothing like that, though, 306 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:32,590 S1: was there, uh, in the USA with Iranian players during 307 00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:33,070 S1: the World Cup? 308 00:16:33,070 --> 00:16:36,110 S2: No. And they had pretty strict restrictions put on place, 309 00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:38,670 S2: I guess, to sort of prevent any of that sort of, uh, 310 00:16:39,310 --> 00:16:42,790 S2: incident like that possibly taking place. The, as part of 311 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:45,390 S2: their visa restrictions, the Iranians were only allowed to fly in, 312 00:16:45,390 --> 00:16:47,710 S2: I think, the day before a match and, uh, had 313 00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:50,710 S2: to fly out straight afterwards, which the team, uh, and 314 00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:52,990 S2: the coach complained about sort of saying no other team 315 00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:56,930 S2: should be had been subjected to, situations like this. But 316 00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:59,570 S2: I think that was, you know, in part to just 317 00:16:59,570 --> 00:17:02,290 S2: ensure that there wasn't any sort of issues around defections 318 00:17:02,290 --> 00:17:05,490 S2: or any other sort of political fallout from having the 319 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:07,050 S2: Iranian players in the US. 320 00:17:07,530 --> 00:17:09,369 S1: It's really interesting. And Nick, just to wrap up, I 321 00:17:09,369 --> 00:17:12,050 S1: wanted to ask you about what we might see, I guess, 322 00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:14,650 S1: at the 2030 World Cup, because as you mentioned earlier, 323 00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:18,890 S1: this World Cup had 48 teams, and FIFA president Gianni 324 00:17:18,930 --> 00:17:21,850 S1: Infantino mentioned the other day that the organization is considering 325 00:17:21,850 --> 00:17:26,450 S1: having 64 teams for the 2030 World Cup. So tell us, 326 00:17:26,450 --> 00:17:28,450 S1: I guess, what you think might be the risks of 327 00:17:28,450 --> 00:17:30,929 S1: having that many teams. You know, is it going to 328 00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:33,330 S1: dilute the fun you know, or or the quality. 329 00:17:33,369 --> 00:17:36,290 S2: Well, you know, more fans, more fun possibly. I mean, 330 00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:39,330 S2: 64 is a lot. Uh, I think it's something like 331 00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:42,609 S2: more than, than 30% of, of, uh, of all FIFA 332 00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:47,770 S2: sort of countries who are playing football at the moment. 64. Uh, 333 00:17:47,770 --> 00:17:50,090 S2: does seem a lot. You've got to obviously find the 334 00:17:50,410 --> 00:17:54,690 S2: facilities and the infrastructure to, to host that many games. Uh, 335 00:17:54,690 --> 00:17:58,429 S2: I think 2030. We're already looking at a game, a 336 00:17:58,550 --> 00:18:01,270 S2: World Cup across three continents, because it will be 100 337 00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:03,190 S2: years since the first World Cup. I think they're playing 338 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:07,150 S2: some games in South America, and then the rest will be, uh, 339 00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:12,149 S2: shared between Morocco, Spain and Portugal. Look, I think the 340 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:16,550 S2: 48 teams has worked quite well, 64. There are some 341 00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:19,270 S2: reasons why it might work. Um, you know, it's a 342 00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:21,590 S2: cleaner number of teams. There's been a lot of, you know, 343 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:23,869 S2: not to get too into the weeds, but there's all 344 00:18:23,869 --> 00:18:26,230 S2: this sort of maths around how a third place team 345 00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:28,670 S2: gets through to the knockout stages and, and, you know, 346 00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:31,590 S2: 64 teams gives you, you know, a cleaner number to 347 00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:34,190 S2: get to 32. That's the top two teams in every group. 348 00:18:34,830 --> 00:18:39,830 S2: But uh, yes, there's already talk about how how possible 349 00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:42,070 S2: it is for a. Well, I don't think, I don't 350 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:44,910 S2: think a solo country could host a World Cup by 351 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:48,270 S2: itself anymore. And then if you're getting to 64 teams, however, 352 00:18:48,270 --> 00:18:51,669 S2: any matches that works out to be finding base camps 353 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:55,250 S2: for all those teams, finding stadiums to host all those games. 354 00:18:55,609 --> 00:18:59,170 S2: It's a big logistical exercise, but if there's one thing 355 00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:01,810 S2: we know with FIFA is that they make most of 356 00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:05,090 S2: their money, if not all their money from from a 357 00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:10,490 S2: World Cup and 64 teams probably means bigger broadcast deals, 358 00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:14,850 S2: more ticket sales, more merchandise, everything else. So if there's 359 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:17,490 S2: money to be made, I don't doubt that FIFA will 360 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,730 S2: take a a very long look at this if it's 361 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:22,730 S2: not already possibly happening. 362 00:19:27,130 --> 00:19:30,090 S1: Thank you so much, Nick, as always for your time. 363 00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:30,770 S2: Thank you. 364 00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:38,850 S1: In other news today, Education Minister Jason Clare has categorized 365 00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:42,369 S1: the job ready graduate scheme, an attempt by Scott Morrison's 366 00:19:42,369 --> 00:19:45,409 S1: government to steer students away from the humanities to the 367 00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:50,370 S1: sciences by restructuring the cost of degrees as unfair and failed, 368 00:19:51,050 --> 00:19:54,790 S1: investing in more fossil fuels and halting wind and solar 369 00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:59,430 S1: farms could cut 5% from electricity costs by 2050, according 370 00:19:59,470 --> 00:20:04,629 S1: to the CSIRO, but would increase atmospheric pollution and accelerate 371 00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:08,550 S1: global warming. And in the past 40 years, there have 372 00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:12,710 S1: been ten property downturns, with seven lasting less than a year. 373 00:20:13,030 --> 00:20:16,430 S1: This time, experts are tipping that prices will keep falling 374 00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:18,710 S1: until there are signs of an interest rate cut, which 375 00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:22,310 S1: could be some time away. You can read more at 376 00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:31,230 S1: the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. 377 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:34,710 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 378 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:38,590 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 379 00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:41,550 S1: our show, follow The Morning Edition and leave a review 380 00:20:41,550 --> 00:20:44,950 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.