S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
S1: April 30th. It's never happened in Australia, but should we
S1: have a federal minister for men, Dan Repacholi. A federal
S1: labor MP who is currently campaigning for re-election says it's
S1: a no brainer. He knows how taboo it is that
S1: to promote the idea risks him being labelled anti-woman. But
S1: tragedies and struggles in his electorate and his own experience
S1: have convinced him of the need to speak out. Today,
S1: Foreign Affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Not on the
S1: movement across the globe pushing for this idea and whether
S1: it could happen in Australia. So, Matthew, just to start,
S1: can you briefly begin by telling us about labor MP
S1: Dan Repacholi? Like, who is this guy? And I guess
S1: perhaps if he is an unlikely person to openly advocate
S1: that our federal government establish a minister for men.
S2: Well, Dan Repacholi has been the minister for the Hunter
S2: since the last election, since 2020 22.
S3: Look who's back. Back again. Dan's back. Tell a friend.
S3: The federal election is coming. Would you like mine?
S2: It's a very interesting seat. It's traditionally been one of
S2: the safest labor seats in the country. This is a
S2: coal mining area. Very blue collar, heavy union presence there.
S2: But in recent elections, it's been drifting away from the party.
S2: But Dan Repacholi came in at the last election as
S2: really the ideal candidate for labor there. He was a tradesperson.
S2: He worked as a coal miner himself. He represented Australia
S2: at five Olympics as a sports shooter. So he's got
S2: that athletic track record, which is appealing in a politician,
S2: and he's held onto the seat.
S3: We say fee free TAFE. What do they say? No,
S3: we say pay rises for aged care and childcare workers.
S3: What do they say? No.
S2: He's very well known for in the press gallery in
S2: Canberra is his annual calendar he puts out. That is
S2: him eating a different hamburger from a different fast food
S2: chain in his electorate for every month of the year,
S2: and they're in high demand in December in the press gallery.
S2: So he's he's a labor backbencher. And this area, this
S2: seat has been discussed as one that could be competitive
S2: at this election. So I was very keen to go
S2: up there and spend some time with him and see
S2: what was going on in this seat. He's very passionate
S2: about hamburgers. We did eat one together. I said, if
S2: we're coming to the Hunter, we have to do it.
S2: And he was happy to have a burger. So it
S2: was a very relaxed day spent with him.
S1: Okay, so on trend or perhaps on brand, I should
S1: say for him to be chomping down on a hamburger
S1: with you. But tell me about how this discussion about
S1: having a minister for men actually came about, because I
S1: know you asked him about it. So what made you
S1: actually ask him if he thought it might be a
S1: good idea? And was he happy to then go on
S1: the record with, with his feelings that yeah, he did
S1: think it's a good idea?
S2: Yes. This was unexpected for me. When we were going
S2: to the Hunter, I was more thinking of it in
S2: terms of the environment, energy, coal mining. That's what we
S2: associate with this seat. But he was saying men, the
S2: men he encounters in his social life, but also really
S2: as an MP, the amount of people he meets are
S2: much more reluctant to talk about their health, emotional issues,
S2: also financial issues. He was talking about this, that we're
S2: all talking about cost of living in the election. But
S2: many men who are genuinely doing it very tough will
S2: often be too proud to talk about those struggles. So
S2: it was in the context of that this was coming up.
S2: And I said, oh, well, do you think we should
S2: perhaps look at the idea of having a minister for men?
S2: We have a minister for women. We also have a
S2: role which is very strongly focused on women's health as well.
S2: And just off the top of my head said, would
S2: that be something worth pursuing? And he instinctively said, yes,
S2: I think that would be great. And he started thinking
S2: about ways that this could work. But yeah, he did
S2: pause for a second to wonder whether to go on
S2: the record about it, which I think gets to there's
S2: been a bit of a taboo around this idea that
S2: to be advocating for men. Does that make you sexist?
S2: Does that make you a misogynist? Is it problematic in
S2: some way to say that men have particular issues that
S2: need addressing? Because the Minister for women position that was
S2: created in the Hawke years, you know, that's the idea
S2: that women have particular issues that need a focus. Yeah,
S2: there's there's a bit of a stigma around it and
S2: whether that should be the case. I think when you
S2: look at some of the statistics, some of the issues
S2: that are specific to men, we should probably do away
S2: with that taboo and we can have a conversation about this.
S1: And so, you know, he did say to you, you know,
S1: that there was a risk that he could be branded
S1: as anti-woman if he went ahead and sort of said, actually, yeah,
S1: I do think it's a good idea. But he did
S1: then go ahead to say, no, that's fine. I'm not
S1: going to censor myself. I'm going to I'm going to
S1: tell you all about this. So tell us, I guess,
S1: a bit about why he did want to go ahead
S1: on the record about this, you know, what does he
S1: feel about this more broadly?
S2: Yeah. We've had stories in the past where talking about
S2: things like the men's rights movement, you know, that is
S2: very problematic in many ways. And he doesn't want to
S2: be associated with that, understandably. And what he said was
S2: when he thought about it. And I saw this firsthand
S2: when the with the people he was speaking to while
S2: door knocking, we went up to give a campaign poster
S2: to a Labour supporter in his electorate in Singleton in
S2: the Hunter Valley, and she was shocked. She said, you
S2: look so great, you've lost all this weight. What's happening?
S2: And he said, oh, well, I'm actually on this new
S2: drug called Mounjaro, which is very similar to Ozempic. And
S2: he was very up front talking to her about why
S2: he went on it and how it's changed his life.
S2: And I spoke to him after about it and he said, look,
S2: I've decided to speak openly about this. I'm not going
S2: to pretend that I'm on this amazing diet or that
S2: I'm taking up so much more exercise. He's lost almost
S2: 30 kilos on it already and wants to keep going.
S2: And so I think that's part of it, is that
S2: he's decided people need to speak openly about their health.
S2: Men need to speak openly about their health. He's trying
S2: to set an example doing it. And that's why he's
S2: open to this idea of having a minister for men,
S2: a minister for men's health, perhaps a special envoy for
S2: men and boys. You know, there could be different ways
S2: that it could work. We have lots of these different
S2: types of positions now. And he thought it was a
S2: good thing for people to talk about.
S1: And he also opened up, I guess, about, you know,
S1: something quite personal, I would have thought, which is, you know,
S1: his disappointment, I guess, when his diet absolutely spun out
S1: of control at a certain point in his life. So
S1: can you tell us what happened there? Because it does
S1: sound like it was a difficult experience for him.
S2: Yeah. Exactly. That that goes to the emotional issues where
S2: he was talking about that. He's competed at five Olympics
S2: before he wanted to compete again at the Paris Olympics. Now,
S2: this is extremely rare for sitting politicians to compete at
S2: the Olympics. This would have been a big deal for him,
S2: but he really narrowly missed out. Extremely, extremely close. He
S2: could have gone, but he just didn't make it. And
S2: he said that sent him into a bit of a spiral. Uh,
S2: that that he was upset by that. And he started
S2: eating a lot more than usual. He also spoke about
S2: the issues that men have with alcohol and drinking a
S2: huge amount of beer in one sitting. So he was
S2: very upfront about that.
S1: We'll be right back. Matt, I want to turn now to,
S1: I guess, the broader picture of perhaps there being a
S1: ministry for men. We are hearing about it overseas. Right.
S1: I think it's been floated in the UK. So can
S1: you tell me about that? Because it seems to have
S1: dovetailed with this show. That's massive at the moment, adolescence
S1: and this sort of larger discussion that we keep hearing
S1: about the crisis in masculinity that we're sort of seeing
S1: play out. So can you just tell me about this?
S2: Yeah, I think this conversation has been building for a
S2: few years. To start with, there has been a big
S2: conversation in the United States about this. There's a book
S2: by a scholar called Richard Reeves called Of Boys and Men.
S2: And I know that's generated a lot of discussion. He's
S2: looking at the numbers, you know, about boys education, about
S2: men's suicide rates going into the numbers and trying to
S2: say that we essentially have a crisis of masculinity and
S2: we need to address it. In the UK now, we're
S2: seeing a lot of discussion around this right now because
S2: of the Netflix show adolescence, which is going into some
S2: of these dark subcultures around incels who would call them and,
S2: and some of the the dark side of modern masculinity.
S4: 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. You
S4: must trick them because you'll never get them in a
S4: normal way.
S5: Adolescence, Nick. He should be shown in Parliament. It should
S5: be shown in schools. It should be shared more widely.
S2: We saw Anthony Albanese talk about this at a debate.
S2: He's found time to watch this on the campaign trail.
S6: I don't know if you've seen adolescents. I encourage anyone
S6: to have a look at it. It's scary. It's scary.
S6: This is something we need to have conversations about. It's
S6: something that government needs to be determined front and center.
S2: Well, and in the context of that, British Prime Minister
S2: Keir Starmer has been asked should they have a minister
S2: for men there? Now, I think going to the slightly
S2: taboo aspect of this, we're speaking about before he said no,
S2: he's not going to do that right now. He says
S2: there are big issues for boys and men, but it's
S2: more about creating good role models. He doesn't think we're
S2: at the stage yet where you need a special minister.
S7: Are we sleepwalking into a kind of crisis for masculinity here?
S7: How do you feel? Not. Not necessarily as a prime minister,
S7: but as a dad.
S8: I am worried about this. I've got a 16 year
S8: old boy and a 14 year old.
S2: And something I'd stress, though, about what Dan Repacholi was
S2: telling me was that this wouldn't be an adversarial type
S2: of position. This wouldn't be about pitting men against women.
S2: He said that he could imagine the minister working closely with, say,
S2: the Minister for Women's Health. They could do joint events together.
S2: It's not about saying one is more important than the
S2: other or diminishing the particular problems that women face, but
S2: about speaking to both constituencies. And he could imagine them
S2: being being two sides of the same coin, really.
S1: But let's get into what's actually happening. Like who is
S1: speaking to these men, you know, is it the Andrew
S1: Tates of the world? Is it is it what messages
S1: do you think they're getting more broadly that people are
S1: so concerned about?
S2: And this is what needs to be interrupted. It's something
S2: that school teachers will be very familiar with, that some
S2: of the social media content that boys and young men
S2: in particular are consuming can be really worrying people like
S2: Andrew Tate. I know school teachers have come in absolutely
S2: alarmed by how many young boys this is, where they're
S2: getting their ideas about girls and women from. And, you know,
S2: we're supposed to be moving towards a more modern, enlightened,
S2: perhaps progressive age of gender relations. And it seems that
S2: isn't happening because of some of these, some of these
S2: ideas which are about control and domination and a very
S2: disturbing and for a long time have been happening outside
S2: of the view, really, of the mainstream media, of politicians.
S2: It's young people living in their own world without much
S2: and their parents not having much access to that world.
S2: So I think that's a big discussion is about how
S2: you break up that pretty terrible feedback loop and introduce
S2: better role models, you know, people who would have been
S2: Olympians and sports people like Dan, and who can provide
S2: an alternative frame of reference.
S1: And let's just talk a little bit about, I guess,
S1: what are the outcomes at the moment for boys and men?
S1: Let's look to Australia. You know, are they suffering? I
S1: guess in a way that's perhaps under-acknowledged, because I believe
S1: they are right, at least when it comes to school
S1: outcomes and even suicide rates. So can you just tell
S1: me a little bit about this, I guess?
S2: Very much so. It's different. So we know and we
S2: do talk about the important issues that women face. We
S2: talk about the gender pay gap. We talk about the
S2: terrible issues with domestic violence. It's overwhelmingly women that face
S2: that issue. The Herald's been running stories recently about misogyny
S2: in healthcare, the way women aren't always believed. So they're specific.
S2: And I think it is acknowledged that there was there
S2: were particular gender dynamics at play there that need to
S2: be addressed. You can't speak about domestic violence as if
S2: it's happening to everyone in the same way, even though
S2: some men also face issues in that terrain. So similarly
S2: with men, I think that the big one is suicide. Uh,
S2: about three quarters of suicides each year in Australia are men,
S2: and that probably doesn't get discussed that much in terms
S2: of why men are killing themselves at rates so much
S2: higher than women and and why the numbers aren't coming down. Uh,
S2: that's a big one. Uh, educational attainment is really a
S2: turning around that, uh, more women are getting bachelor's degrees now,
S2: significantly more women than men. And that has a downstream
S2: effect throughout the economy. You know, if we're looking at
S2: men more in, uh, skilled manufacturing jobs, that can be, uh,
S2: a bit more, uh, turbulent, you know, less reliable, perhaps
S2: we're seeing that play out very much in Trump's America,
S2: leading into some of the anger that men in particular
S2: feel about the changing economy. They're vulnerable to that.
S1: And you mentioned suicide rates there and the horrific reality
S1: that so many more men in Australia are committing suicide
S1: in comparison to women. And I believe this is something
S1: that Dan Repacholi actually spoke to you about, in particular,
S1: two young men from his own electorate, both under the
S1: age of 20, who recently took their own lives. So
S1: was this something that he is sort of quite impassioned about?
S2: Yeah, he was moved by that. And when we talk
S2: about why was he willing to put his name to
S2: this idea, it was definitely examples like that that have
S2: happened pretty recently in his electorate. And the shocking thing
S2: about that is definitely also the the young ages that
S2: are happening as these young people, young boys really or
S2: extremely young men committing suicide, that's, uh, seems to be
S2: a pretty worrying new trend in this area. You know,
S2: people with so much more life left to live, um,
S2: that that's sparking this whole discussion that we're also talking
S2: about whether social media, whether to have restrictions on who
S2: can use social media, so that that definitely impacted him
S2: and helped make him decide he wanted to talk about this.
S1: I mean, just the alarming stats alone, I guess on
S1: suicide does make you wonder whether, you know, there really
S1: is a strong argument here for there being more of
S1: a focus, I guess, on mental health from the federal government.
S1: But you and I were speaking before recording that, though
S1: it does seem like Dan Repacholi is, as much as
S1: we know, the first federal MP who has really been
S1: advocating for this. We do know that another labor MP,
S1: Susan Templeman, that she forwarded a petition to the government
S1: in October last year that the government introduce a minister
S1: for men. I think this idea actually came from a
S1: member of the public, not from her. But what did
S1: the petition argue at the time, and what do we
S1: know about how the government responded?
S2: Yes, this petition was making some of the points we
S2: have here about those issues around men's health, men's suicide,
S2: men's education. It's been pretty much a rejected by the government.
S2: I asked the Prime Minister I was on the campaign
S2: trail with him when we published this piece, and I
S2: asked him about it, and he was very impressed by
S2: Dan Repacholi. He's he's a big fan of him. He
S2: was very enthused by the issues he was talking about
S2: and getting men talking more about their health like he
S2: was he was right, right onto it. But he definitely
S2: didn't commit to creating this, uh, position. I think he
S2: might be more in the Keir Starmer position, where it's
S2: a bit of a step too far right now. Uh,
S2: but who knows? Down the track, if momentum builds and
S2: more people come on board, including perhaps, uh, female politicians,
S2: if they came on board, it could be something we
S2: would see. Because, look, we have a lot of, uh,
S2: special envoys and ministers representing many different fields, uh, cybersecurity. security. Um.
S2: Veterans affairs. There's there's many positions that are important, but
S2: I would say this is a pretty important one as well.
S2: And it's not about saying that just because men have
S2: issues to address, that women have it easier. I don't
S2: think that's the case at all. And in many ways,
S2: women would be beneficiaries from trying to address male suicide,
S2: for example. That would be a great thing for them.
S2: So I think perhaps, hopefully, we're entering a time where
S2: we can speak about these issues a bit more freely
S2: without putting it in a binary of only one gender
S2: is going to do better or worse. Um, it's pretty
S2: clear that there are different issues that they face, but
S2: that are both important.
S1: And do you think it's still taboo, though? I guess
S1: just to wrap up this idea that, you know, that
S1: that boys and men are, I guess, frequently getting these
S1: messages of toxic masculinity and men are to blame for
S1: all these problems. Do you think it's still taboo, though,
S1: to sort of look at the other side of the
S1: coin and go, this might be really damaging for for
S1: some men to hear.
S2: Um, I think we're only starting to talk about it enough. Uh,
S2: and and that's the thing I think it's it's something
S2: that's going to be have to be a lot more
S2: focused on, uh, in politics, in the media. I don't
S2: think we have the option to be kind of logged
S2: out and be leaving it to young people to figure
S2: out themselves. So I think this is going to be,
S2: to be honest, one of the big issues of our time.
S2: We're coming up at the end of an election campaign
S2: that's been pretty a small target, uh, you know, cost
S2: of living. You know, these things are important. But this
S2: is one of the big swirling, swirling issues of modern life, uh,
S2: is essentially, you know, is do we face a crisis
S2: of masculinity and we're going to see more about it
S2: and we're going to have to take it more seriously.
S1: And I do have to ask you, what is it
S1: like to sort of see this coming to the fore
S1: as a man, you know, because I of course, You know,
S1: I've long been passionate about. Well, I'm passionate about all humans. But,
S1: you know, I've experienced the stuff that women experience, you know,
S1: systemic biases and all that. What's it like as a man,
S1: I guess, to sort of see this come to the
S1: fore as something that might, you know, gain respect and
S1: be less taboo to actually discuss, given that it is
S1: it's controversial, I guess, just because the focus has been
S1: on women for so long and for good reason, to
S1: address all of the imbalances against us.
S2: Yeah, I can feel some of that, of whether there's
S2: some taboo to talk about it. Um, yeah. It to,
S2: to raise it. I was I was worried whether Dan
S2: would want to go there and be willing to talk
S2: about it, but I think it was good that we
S2: had a trusting relationship. Uh, he said that he's had
S2: very good feedback to his idea, which was which was interesting. So, uh, yeah,
S2: I think it's about being more, uh, more open to it. And, uh,
S2: I'm glad we got around to doing it.
S1: Yeah, well, I was thrilled to see the article. I
S1: think it's something that should be explored further and with
S1: greater compassion. I would hope for people on all sides.
S1: So thank you so much Matt for your time.
S2: No worries at all.
S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers and Julia Carcasole.
S1: Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
S1: head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
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S1: Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
S1: Thanks for listening.