1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,160 S1: It should have been a time of celebration for a 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,040 S1: Sydney woman who had bought a new home for herself 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,280 S1: and her daughter. But as settlement loomed, her application for 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,599 S1: a mortgage unraveled in shocking fashion, and it was all 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:26,160 S1: over $44.11. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,080 S1: Morning Edition from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,360 S1: Kishore Napier Rahman, on what led a judge to demand 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,000 S1: that the head of one of the big four banks 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:45,400 S1: be hauled before a court this week. Now, Kishore, can 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,519 S1: we just start by going back to the beginning of 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,559 S1: this saga? Can you just tell us when Fiona Vinyl 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,120 S1: first realised that she had an issue with her credit rating? 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,720 S2: Well, it actually goes back to last year, when Fiona 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,440 S2: got the quite welcome news that because of an interest 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,770 S2: rate cut, her mortgage repayments were going to go down, 16 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:06,690 S2: and then she went and paid the reduced rate, but 17 00:01:06,690 --> 00:01:08,649 S2: she paid at the reduced rate a month too early, 18 00:01:08,650 --> 00:01:11,770 S2: based on a kind of ambiguously worded email from the bank. 19 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:14,090 S2: And you know how we always get something saying starts 20 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:18,289 S2: after July 10th, after July 10th actually meant August. So 21 00:01:18,490 --> 00:01:22,090 S2: she paid the the new rate a month too soon. 22 00:01:22,090 --> 00:01:26,890 S2: And so she was therefore $44.11 down on her mortgage repayments. 23 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:29,850 S2: Fiona had a mortgage with Saint George, which has obviously 24 00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:33,170 S2: been owned by Westpac since 2008. She then goes to 25 00:01:33,209 --> 00:01:36,330 S2: buy a new home later in December, and when she 26 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:39,009 S2: goes to settle that, she finds that she cannot get 27 00:01:39,050 --> 00:01:42,009 S2: a new mortgage for the new home because she is 28 00:01:42,010 --> 00:01:46,250 S2: $44.11 in debt. She asks the bank to fix this problem. 29 00:01:46,250 --> 00:01:49,650 S2: The bank says no. So Fiona lawyers up and goes 30 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:51,970 S2: to the New South Wales Supreme Court, where she seeks 31 00:01:51,970 --> 00:01:54,970 S2: to get that order overturned, get the adverse credit rating 32 00:01:54,970 --> 00:01:57,970 S2: that's made against her name to the reporting agency overturned, 33 00:01:58,210 --> 00:02:00,770 S2: and also to sue the bank for damages for misleading 34 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:02,059 S2: and deceptive conduct. 35 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:04,220 S1: Okay, now we're going to get into how the bank 36 00:02:04,260 --> 00:02:06,860 S1: comes into this and how they responded. But first off, 37 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:08,620 S1: this sounds like a tiny amount of money. We're talking 38 00:02:08,620 --> 00:02:14,780 S1: about $44.11 that she was owing. So how did this 39 00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:17,540 S1: then lead to her not being able to purchase this 40 00:02:17,540 --> 00:02:18,420 S1: next home? 41 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:20,980 S2: Yeah, it is a tiny amount of money, and it's 42 00:02:20,980 --> 00:02:22,620 S2: not the kind of amount of money that's going to 43 00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:25,700 S2: do very much damage to Westpac's bottom line. But it 44 00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:28,260 S2: isn't an amount of money that is significant enough that 45 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:33,019 S2: under federal laws, the banks have to basically inform credit 46 00:02:33,020 --> 00:02:36,220 S2: rating agencies that someone's had a shortfall. Right? They're bound 47 00:02:36,220 --> 00:02:38,339 S2: to do that. But there's also a kind of way 48 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:40,780 S2: around that where if the bank thinks that that sort 49 00:02:40,780 --> 00:02:43,579 S2: of error of payment has come through kind of a 50 00:02:43,580 --> 00:02:45,660 S2: mistake or something like that, they do have a bit 51 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:48,380 S2: of leeway to fix it. In this case, the bank 52 00:02:48,419 --> 00:02:50,900 S2: had not fixed it, even though she'd requested that they 53 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:53,660 S2: fix it. And that meant that she basically had a 54 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,660 S2: lower credit score against her name, and that basically stopped 55 00:02:57,660 --> 00:03:00,540 S2: her borrowing more money to buy a new home for 56 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:02,220 S2: her and her daughter later on. 57 00:03:02,500 --> 00:03:05,420 S1: Okay, so tell us what happens next. So she commences 58 00:03:05,419 --> 00:03:08,740 S1: legal proceedings against the bank. Then what happens? 59 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:12,940 S2: Well, it's a little bit complicated here. So she commences 60 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:16,859 S2: legal proceedings and then in January, this is listed for 61 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:19,540 S2: a hearing before a judge in the New South Wales 62 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:22,500 S2: Supreme Court. Westpac actually don't show up to that first 63 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,660 S2: hearing because the complaint or the legal complaint hadn't gone 64 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:31,100 S2: high enough into their system. She then calls Westpac multiple times, 65 00:03:31,139 --> 00:03:34,100 S2: asking them to show up the judge's chambers, call Westpac, 66 00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:36,180 S2: asking them to show up, but Westpac do not show up. 67 00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:38,020 S2: So the judge basically says, well, you know what? You're 68 00:03:38,020 --> 00:03:40,220 S2: going to get your order and orders the bank to 69 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:45,780 S2: remove the adverse credit rating information that is against her name. Subsequently, 70 00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:48,300 S2: this gets listed for another hearing about a week or 71 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,420 S2: two later with a different judge. This time Westpac does 72 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:54,260 S2: come in and then this is when they, in the 73 00:03:54,260 --> 00:03:58,500 S2: words of Justice David Hammerschlag, are prepared to defend the indefensible, 74 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:02,470 S2: which is that they're going to fight over the $44.11. 75 00:04:02,510 --> 00:04:04,910 S2: They're not going to remove the adverse credit information that's 76 00:04:04,910 --> 00:04:08,430 S2: against her name, and they're willing to basically go to 77 00:04:08,430 --> 00:04:09,470 S2: legal war over it. 78 00:04:09,670 --> 00:04:11,870 S1: Okay. So this is where things, I guess, really ramp up, 79 00:04:11,870 --> 00:04:14,790 S1: because it seems like the New South Wales Supreme Court judge, 80 00:04:14,950 --> 00:04:18,029 S1: Justice David Hammerschlag, that he at this point, it seems 81 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:20,909 S1: like he's got a gut full of the bank stubbornness in, 82 00:04:20,950 --> 00:04:24,390 S1: like you say, refusing to remove Fiona's adverse credit notice. 83 00:04:24,830 --> 00:04:26,670 S1: So he goes straight to the top, right. You know, 84 00:04:26,710 --> 00:04:29,510 S1: Saint George is owned by Westpac. And the judge actually 85 00:04:29,510 --> 00:04:33,070 S1: demanded that the Westpac chief executive front up to court 86 00:04:33,070 --> 00:04:35,270 S1: right over this 40 odd dollars. 87 00:04:36,510 --> 00:04:39,830 S2: Sometimes you see when you follow court cases, there's just 88 00:04:39,830 --> 00:04:42,150 S2: a point where judges get fed up. They can get up, 89 00:04:42,150 --> 00:04:43,909 S2: fed up with the lawyers, they can get fed up 90 00:04:43,910 --> 00:04:46,670 S2: with the parties for taking too long for doing this 91 00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:49,430 S2: and that. Judges are notoriously a little bit cranky, but, 92 00:04:49,470 --> 00:04:51,909 S2: you know, when they get cranky against the party like this, 93 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:55,429 S2: it's always, I suppose, interesting reading. And in this case, 94 00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:59,510 S2: Justice Hammerschlag has really just had it, um, with Westpac's 95 00:04:59,510 --> 00:05:02,400 S2: conduct in this case. He demands that the CEO Anthony 96 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,680 S2: Miller show up on Monday. This is at a hearing 97 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,320 S2: on Friday, and he notes that it's an unusual step, 98 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,080 S2: but he's like, you know what? You got to do it. 99 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,440 S2: Show up on Monday. Of course, over the weekend, he 100 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,240 S2: receives emails. His chambers receive emails from Westpac's lawyers, saying 101 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,480 S2: that they have subsequently decided to follow the initial order 102 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,520 S2: and take away the adverse credit information against Fiona Vennells. Name. 103 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,680 S2: So his honour then decides that it's not worth the 104 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,080 S2: Westpac CEO showing up to court on Monday and decides 105 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,919 S2: to not drag him into the mix. But he is 106 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,440 S2: clearly not happy with the conduct of the bank and 107 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:37,719 S2: how they've treated this lady. 108 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,919 S1: After the break. 109 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,200 S2: The consequences on the plaintiff on Fiona of her having 110 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,400 S2: an adverse credit rating are very big. Like the consequence 111 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,360 S2: was that she couldn't buy a new home. And on 112 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,560 S2: the other hand, there's no meaningful consequence faced by Westpac. 113 00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:06,490 S1: So tell us, because you've watched the court proceedings. So 114 00:06:06,490 --> 00:06:10,050 S1: how did the judge actually respond to the bank's backflip 115 00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:14,169 S1: on Fiona's credit rating? And what ultimately was the result 116 00:06:14,170 --> 00:06:14,970 S1: for Fiona? 117 00:06:15,610 --> 00:06:17,690 S2: Well, look, it was a good result for her. And 118 00:06:17,690 --> 00:06:19,810 S2: what's going to happen next is this matter is now 119 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:21,770 S2: going to be transferred into the district court, which is 120 00:06:21,770 --> 00:06:25,650 S2: going to determine things like any damages that Westpac might 121 00:06:25,650 --> 00:06:29,169 S2: be liable to pay to her. They haven't determined that yet. 122 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:31,570 S2: He also made an order that Westpac has to pay 123 00:06:31,570 --> 00:06:33,890 S2: her legal costs, which we don't know what that is 124 00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:35,730 S2: going to be, but I'm going to guess it's going 125 00:06:35,730 --> 00:06:38,930 S2: to be a little more than $44.11. Just knowing the 126 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:41,730 S2: the going rate for barristers in Sydney at the moment. 127 00:06:41,810 --> 00:06:44,850 S2: Then also the judge also has a few a bit 128 00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:48,450 S2: more kind of, shall we say, editorial commentary about the bank. 129 00:06:48,730 --> 00:06:52,490 S2: He accuses it of lacking in basic commercial morality. He 130 00:06:52,490 --> 00:06:55,570 S2: notes that, you know, it's a minimal amount of money. 131 00:06:55,570 --> 00:06:59,170 S2: That is her shortfall, $44.11, as we've said, and that 132 00:06:59,170 --> 00:07:02,370 S2: there is a substantially unequal bargaining position between the parties, 133 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:04,170 S2: one of them being one of the big four banks, 134 00:07:04,170 --> 00:07:07,729 S2: a big financial behemoth and the other just being a 135 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:11,570 S2: regular everyday mum. He notes that you know the consequences 136 00:07:11,570 --> 00:07:14,090 S2: on the plaintiff, on Fiona, of her having an adverse 137 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:17,170 S2: credit rating are very big like the consequence was that 138 00:07:17,170 --> 00:07:20,290 S2: she couldn't buy a new home. And on the other hand, 139 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:23,450 S2: there's no meaningful consequence faced by Westpac on behalf of 140 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:26,610 S2: itself and by sort of not recording that detail. So 141 00:07:26,650 --> 00:07:29,770 S2: Westpac doesn't really have any issue if she doesn't pay 142 00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:33,330 S2: her mortgage on time. She obviously made up that payment 143 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:35,210 S2: the next month. She was pretty prompt to do that. 144 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:38,170 S2: It also doesn't face any issue if it notifies the 145 00:07:38,170 --> 00:07:40,450 S2: credit rating agency that it has to make that change. 146 00:07:40,570 --> 00:07:44,330 S2: But for her, the consequences are quite major. So his honour, helpfully, 147 00:07:44,330 --> 00:07:46,250 S2: I suppose, from her sake, goes into all this further 148 00:07:46,250 --> 00:07:48,970 S2: detail as to why he is so cranky about Westpac's 149 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:51,650 S2: conduct in the case, and why he is unhappy with 150 00:07:51,650 --> 00:07:52,730 S2: how she's been treated. 151 00:07:53,490 --> 00:07:54,650 S3: And I've got to ask. 152 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:58,330 S1: You your opinion on what this really quite unfortunate saga 153 00:07:58,330 --> 00:08:01,700 S1: for Fiona, I guess, tells us about big bank Morality 154 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:05,780 S1: more broadly, you know, and how helpful or non-helpful they are. 155 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:08,460 S1: And actually helping everyday people to buy a home, because 156 00:08:08,460 --> 00:08:12,180 S1: we know that this is such a difficult space for 157 00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:15,060 S1: anybody who's saving to buy a place to begin with, 158 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:17,700 S1: let alone to sort of experience one of these hurdles. 159 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:19,820 S1: I mean, do you think this is happening more broadly? 160 00:08:20,540 --> 00:08:23,540 S2: Oh, it's absolutely such a difficult situation because, you know, 161 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:27,220 S2: this started because she had copped an interest rate reduction. 162 00:08:27,220 --> 00:08:30,460 S2: So that's usually good news for people out there. Right. 163 00:08:30,500 --> 00:08:34,020 S2: Battling with the hellhole that is housing in Australia. And 164 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:36,380 S2: that was actually good news. And it turned out to 165 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:39,460 S2: be some like lengthy saga that's led to her going 166 00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:42,340 S2: to court. Look, I think everyone who's ever dealt with 167 00:08:42,340 --> 00:08:45,820 S2: a big institution, be it a financial institution, be it like, 168 00:08:45,860 --> 00:08:48,260 S2: you know, an insurance company or anything like that, has 169 00:08:48,260 --> 00:08:51,900 S2: just felt the frustration of sometimes just trying to speak 170 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:54,460 S2: to a human being or trying to deal with something 171 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:57,060 S2: that's just gone awry. It's just one of the most 172 00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:00,900 S2: powerless situations you can ever feel, ever be in. It's 173 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:05,590 S2: this incredible, incredibly frustrating situation. I feel like anyone who's 174 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:06,990 S2: been in that situation has been like, you know what, 175 00:09:06,990 --> 00:09:08,870 S2: I would love to go to court and get a 176 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:11,030 S2: judge or someone like that to just back me up 177 00:09:11,030 --> 00:09:14,230 S2: here because what had happened feels wrong. So look, yeah, 178 00:09:14,270 --> 00:09:16,030 S2: I mean, I think a lot of people can probably 179 00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:19,870 S2: relate to the situation more broadly. Most disputes like this 180 00:09:19,870 --> 00:09:22,550 S2: do get resolved early. In fact, in this case, it 181 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:26,150 S2: is kind of interesting that this was not just quietly 182 00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:29,670 S2: resolved normally without having to go to court. It's probably 183 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:32,590 S2: unfortunate for everyone involved that it did come to this. 184 00:09:32,830 --> 00:09:35,110 S2: It's bad PR for the bank because you've got a 185 00:09:35,150 --> 00:09:39,110 S2: judge going up and lashing them and accusing them of, uh, 186 00:09:39,910 --> 00:09:42,790 S2: commercial immorality or whatever he used. And then it's bad 187 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:45,470 S2: for this woman because she's had to go to court. 188 00:09:45,510 --> 00:09:47,350 S2: I mean, even if her legal fees get paid, it's 189 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:51,870 S2: an onerous and cumbersome process. So really, I mean, yeah, 190 00:09:51,910 --> 00:09:54,750 S2: everyone feels the frustration of dealing with these big institutions 191 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:57,270 S2: and but sometimes I guess things like this slip through 192 00:09:57,270 --> 00:09:59,110 S2: the cracks and for want of a better term, they 193 00:09:59,110 --> 00:10:01,190 S2: just yeah, they slip through the cracks and this is 194 00:10:01,190 --> 00:10:02,000 S2: how they end up. 195 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:02,920 S3: It does raise. 196 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,000 S1: Questions though, doesn't it? Does it make you wonder? Like 197 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,320 S1: it makes me wonder what sort of directives I guess 198 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,200 S1: the staff at the various big banks are being given 199 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,600 S1: in terms of how they should treat short payments or, 200 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,800 S1: you know, when there's a small amount missing and, you know, 201 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,679 S1: when someone sort of addresses it and goes, hey, actually, 202 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,040 S1: there's a mistake here. Does it make you wonder, like 203 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,600 S1: I'm wondering, are they given a directive from on high? 204 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,080 S1: And this is, of course just conjecture. Oh, just do 205 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,600 S1: everything you can to make people, you know, not be 206 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,600 S1: able to fulfill this mortgage or whatever it is. 207 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,920 S2: Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't know what Westpac's internal 208 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,679 S2: sort of processes for dealing with this for escalation is, 209 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,800 S2: but I will say, like, you know, increasingly a lot 210 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,080 S2: of these things are getting either outsourced or automated. And obviously, 211 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,160 S2: with the rise of AI, more and more of these 212 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,040 S2: things are going to be automated and sort of taken 213 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,760 S2: away from kind of real humans. And so there is 214 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,560 S2: kind of a line in this judgment. I'm not quite 215 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,640 S2: doing it justice here, where Justice Hammerschlag points out that, 216 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,120 S2: you know, to like a machine, a debt like this 217 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,650 S2: would be significant and would be something that has to 218 00:11:01,650 --> 00:11:05,370 S2: be recorded. And obviously under the legislation, the Bank does 219 00:11:05,370 --> 00:11:08,090 S2: have to record that. But kind of to a human, 220 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:10,610 S2: you can see that that's probably just like a little 221 00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:13,210 S2: bit illogical and something that can be easily dealt with. 222 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:15,570 S2: And I wonder that, you know, with the rise of AI, 223 00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:18,450 S2: with more of these kinds of functions and escalation points 224 00:11:18,450 --> 00:11:22,010 S2: being sort of turned over to sort of chatbots or 225 00:11:22,050 --> 00:11:24,610 S2: AI concierges and that kind of thing, whether that's going 226 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:27,250 S2: to actually make the process more efficient and better for customers. 227 00:11:27,250 --> 00:11:29,570 S2: In some cases it might do that, but in other cases, 228 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:32,250 S2: whether it might lead to more situations like this where 229 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:36,130 S2: you've got something where the institution is probably just like 230 00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:38,570 S2: literally missed the human element a little bit. 231 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:40,210 S3: Thank you. Sure. Just to wrap up, I have to 232 00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:42,730 S3: ask what happened with Fiona because we know at the 233 00:11:42,730 --> 00:11:43,690 S3: very beginning you said. 234 00:11:43,690 --> 00:11:46,730 S1: She bought this new home for herself and her daughter 235 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:49,010 S1: in western Sydney, and she was unable to settle in 236 00:11:49,010 --> 00:11:52,490 S1: the property because mortgage brokers, you know, had said that 237 00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:55,530 S1: her credit rating made new lending impossible. Do we know 238 00:11:55,530 --> 00:11:57,730 S1: if she has successfully bought a home? 239 00:11:58,130 --> 00:11:59,970 S2: I don't know, to be honest. As far as I know, 240 00:11:59,970 --> 00:12:02,209 S2: she's not settled on that property. We do know that, 241 00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:04,410 S2: you know, this case is going to continue in the 242 00:12:04,410 --> 00:12:08,370 S2: district court, I believe, unless it also settles. But, you know, 243 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:09,970 S2: as far as we know, she did have a victory 244 00:12:09,970 --> 00:12:12,850 S2: in court this week. So that's a good outcome for her. 245 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:17,850 S1: Well, thank you so much, Kishore, for your time. 246 00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:19,450 S2: My pleasure. 247 00:12:27,290 --> 00:12:31,209 S1: In other news, today, Nationals Senator Matt Canavan has rebuked 248 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:34,570 S1: Pauline Hanson for suggesting in an interview with Sky news 249 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:37,650 S1: that there are no good Muslims as the coalition tries 250 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:40,730 S1: to walk the line between wooing back One Nation voters 251 00:12:40,850 --> 00:12:46,850 S1: and celebrating Australia's multiculturalism. Hanson conflated Muslims with radical Islam, 252 00:12:47,170 --> 00:12:50,809 S1: adding that those that adhere to Islam quote, hate Westerners. 253 00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:55,530 S1: The incoming president of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians 254 00:12:55,530 --> 00:12:58,410 S1: has cast doubt on its long term survival due to 255 00:12:58,450 --> 00:13:03,260 S1: concerns over a $40 million IT overhaul a dysfunctional board 256 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:08,500 S1: and an external investigation into bullying allegations against the outgoing president. 257 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:13,380 S1: And Australia, the United States, Japan and the Philippines should 258 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:17,140 S1: establish a formal NATO style defence alliance to counter China's 259 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:21,020 S1: growing military power in Asia, according to Ely Ratner, who 260 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:25,140 S1: served as assistant secretary of defense for Indo-Pacific security affairs 261 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:30,780 S1: under former American President Joe Biden. Read these headlines and 262 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:38,500 S1: more on Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Today's episode 263 00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:42,940 S1: was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, 264 00:13:43,059 --> 00:13:47,179 S1: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. 265 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:50,380 S1: If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and 266 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:53,740 S1: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks 267 00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:54,579 S1: for listening.