1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,800 S1: Over the weekend. A particularly deadly strain of bird flu 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,360 S1: was confirmed in New South Wales for the very first time. 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,919 S1: This now takes the total of confirmed cases nationwide to six. 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,840 S1: I'm Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,400 S1: from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, science 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,639 S1: reporter Angus Dalton on how much of a risk we're 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:38,680 S1: dealing with now. It's July the 7th. Angus, welcome back 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,600 S1: to the podcast. 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:40,720 S2: Thanks for having me, Sam. 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,600 S1: Okay, let's get straight into this. Why are we reading 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,240 S1: about bird flu now? You know what's happening. 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,800 S2: We're reading about bird flu because this really virulent, deadly 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,160 S2: form of the disease, which first arose in 2021, has 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,639 S2: finally made it to Australian shores. And until about two 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,840 S2: weeks ago, when we had the first confirmed case in 16 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,840 S2: Western Australia. Australia was actually the final continental holdout for 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,560 S2: this disease, and I think a lot of experts are 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,680 S2: surprised it hasn't arrived earlier, to be honest. But overseas 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,960 S2: we have seen massive, massive, catastrophic levels of damage to 20 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,120 S2: wildlife populations, not just birds, but it's also gotten into 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,640 S2: marine mammals like seals, dolphins, and of course, in places 22 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,760 S2: like the US, they've also seen widespread devastation to their 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,640 S2: poultry industry as well, with upwards of, I think, 160 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,000 S2: million chickens culled to do with this specific, very deadly 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,200 S2: strain of bird flu. 26 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,400 S1: Okay. So tell us first of all, why has it 27 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,759 S1: just arrived now? Like, how did it get here? And 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,720 S1: I guess just tell us very briefly about where these 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,320 S1: cases have been found, because of course, you reported just 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,440 S1: over the weekend that the first case had been confirmed 31 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,040 S1: in New South Wales, but it's national, right? 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,400 S2: Yeah. There's two ways to answer that question. One is 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,520 S2: that the virus is getting here through migratory subantarctic birds. 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,480 S2: It sort of crossed from Antarctic waters over into waters 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,560 S2: off Australia. We're seeing the virus so far in species 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,880 S2: like skuas and also the giant petrel, which is a 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,640 S2: really big bird. It's got a wingspan of about two metres, 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,520 S2: so it can travel a really long distance. And the 39 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,320 S2: other key thing about these species is that they are scavengers. 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,840 S2: So they will often eat carcasses that they come across. 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,960 S2: And that's one key way that the virus can spread 42 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,959 S2: from a sick animal, which it might have killed into 43 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,079 S2: a living animal that can then travel a very long 44 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,320 S2: distance and take the virus from somewhere like the sub-Antarctic, 45 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,280 S2: where we know the virus has taken hold to Australian waters. 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,639 S2: And the reason that we've sort of seen this pattern 47 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,320 S2: of the virus arriving in Western Australia first, possibly, is 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,320 S2: the fact that around Antarctica there's what's called a flyway, 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,760 S2: which a lot of sub-Antarctic birds follow. So this is 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,760 S2: a big sort of clockwise moving circle of circumpolar air 51 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,080 S2: that these birds fly around. And that's sort of why 52 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,960 S2: you've maybe seen these birds start to arrive on the 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,880 S2: shores of Western Australia. Then we had another case in 54 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,119 S2: South Australia moving east. And then finally that one confirmed 55 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,640 S2: case that we got over the weekend just north of 56 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,600 S2: Newcastle in New South Wales, marking the virus's arrival to 57 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,240 S2: the east coast. That's sort of why it maybe crossed 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,399 S2: from the west to the east. The other really interesting 59 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,320 S2: thing going on is that there was an Antarctic bird 60 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,880 S2: expert who had just come back from Antarctica, who told 61 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,920 S2: one of our reporters, Mike Foley, that there seems to 62 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,720 S2: be this sort of unprecedented phenomenon unfolding at the moment 63 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,559 S2: where we're seeing these marine heat waves in the Southern Ocean, 64 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:51,320 S2: and that's possibly, possibly moving populations of seabirds up and 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,360 S2: closer to the eastern seaboard of Australia. Normally, this bird 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,160 S2: sort of hang out, out to sea, sort of on 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,000 S2: the continental shelf, but when they get sick, a lot 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,040 S2: of them will try and roost on the surface of 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,760 S2: the ocean. They eventually get washed into shore, and that's 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,440 S2: when you get these sick, infected shorebirds collapsing on the shoreline. 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,280 S2: So we do seem to be seeing a lot more 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,520 S2: of these sort of giant petrels skuas. And one of 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,479 S2: our photographers saw an albatross off Sydney over the weekend. 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,520 S2: And I've seen video of, you know, whale watching tours, 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,760 S2: posting these videos of giant petrels, which aren't unheard of 76 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 S2: in Australian waters. But there is a lot of anecdotal evidence, 77 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,800 S2: at least, that a lot of these sub-Antarctic species are 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,240 S2: coming in closer to the Australian shoreline, which may be 79 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,640 S2: one of the drivers behind the virus's arrival. 80 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,919 S1: Okay, so tell us what's worrying experts now the most, 81 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,719 S1: because you mentioned that we had bird flu in Australia 82 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,040 S1: in 2021. You and I spoke on the podcast at 83 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,200 S1: the time and at the time, if I'm understanding correctly, 84 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,640 S1: the most worrying aspect was that it was going to 85 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,960 S1: get into poultry farms and egg prices were going to 86 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,840 S1: go up and that sort of thing. So I guess 87 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,440 S1: maybe you can tell us the difference between that strain 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,049 S1: of bird flu And what we're seeing now, and what 89 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:00,890 S1: is worrying experts the most? 90 00:05:01,170 --> 00:05:05,410 S2: Definitely the key difference about this strain is that it 91 00:05:05,410 --> 00:05:09,330 S2: is a very keen spillover virus, which means that it 92 00:05:09,330 --> 00:05:13,370 S2: loves to jump between different species. So unlike the other 93 00:05:13,370 --> 00:05:16,290 S2: strains of bird flu that might arrive in Australia when 94 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:19,890 S2: become really concerned about the poultry industry and chicken farms 95 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:23,330 S2: in that instance. That's also obviously a concern for this virus. 96 00:05:23,330 --> 00:05:27,529 S2: But what we've seen overseas is the broader catastrophe actually 97 00:05:27,529 --> 00:05:30,210 S2: being in wildlife populations, like I said before, because for 98 00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:34,809 S2: whatever reason, this virus is really good at jumping into 99 00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:37,530 S2: things like we've seen in the US, like dairy cows, 100 00:05:37,570 --> 00:05:41,890 S2: like cats, like dogs, like minks and other mammals, which 101 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:45,330 S2: is obviously a concern when you think about the possible 102 00:05:45,370 --> 00:05:47,570 S2: human impact of this, because any time it jumps into 103 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:50,570 S2: a mammal, it gives the virus an evolutionary chance to 104 00:05:50,610 --> 00:05:53,810 S2: gain adaptations that can better infect mammals, which is also 105 00:05:53,810 --> 00:05:56,450 S2: people us. But that's the main issue. It can just 106 00:05:56,490 --> 00:05:59,690 S2: jump really easily between different species. So it's not just 107 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:02,450 S2: limited to birds like I guess a lot of other 108 00:06:02,450 --> 00:06:05,570 S2: bird flu has been for whatever reason, it can just 109 00:06:05,570 --> 00:06:08,330 S2: spread between different species really easily, which makes it a 110 00:06:08,330 --> 00:06:09,650 S2: lot more dangerous. 111 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:11,690 S1: Okay, well, let's get into this because I think this 112 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:14,610 S1: is sort of an underlying fear for I imagine, many 113 00:06:14,610 --> 00:06:17,770 S1: people who would be listening, certainly including myself. So are 114 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:19,730 S1: humans now at risk of getting this? 115 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:22,210 S3: I would say the risk is definitely low. 116 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:25,330 S2: All of the public health authorities, from Australia to the 117 00:06:25,330 --> 00:06:27,810 S2: US have assured us that the risk is very low. 118 00:06:27,810 --> 00:06:31,409 S2: And I mean, you know, any kind of new emergence 119 00:06:31,410 --> 00:06:34,490 S2: of a virus or a zoonosis is a numbers game. 120 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:38,089 S2: And we have certainly seen this virus circulate in huge numbers, 121 00:06:38,089 --> 00:06:40,770 S2: as I said, in every other continent except Australia. And 122 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:45,409 S2: what we haven't seen is sustained transmission from person to person, 123 00:06:45,410 --> 00:06:47,770 S2: which is what you'd really worry about in terms of, 124 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:51,890 S2: you know, pandemic risk. People can get infected directly from animals. 125 00:06:51,890 --> 00:06:54,849 S2: That's one of the reasons why authorities have told people 126 00:06:54,850 --> 00:06:57,770 S2: not to go near or touch dead or sick birds 127 00:06:57,770 --> 00:07:00,610 S2: on beaches at the moment. And we've seen, I think, 128 00:07:00,650 --> 00:07:03,929 S2: a couple of hundred cases overseas, at least one death 129 00:07:03,930 --> 00:07:06,290 S2: in the US from someone who caught the virus from 130 00:07:06,290 --> 00:07:10,490 S2: their backyard chickens. But that person actually had underlying health issues. 131 00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:12,850 S2: And the other thing about this strain of the virus, 132 00:07:12,850 --> 00:07:16,570 S2: even though it is very, very deadly for animals and wildlife, 133 00:07:16,570 --> 00:07:20,530 S2: is that it actually seems to be possibly less dangerous 134 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:23,370 S2: or less deadly to people. Like when we've seen other 135 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,090 S2: types of bird flu jump into people. We've seen mortality 136 00:07:26,090 --> 00:07:28,890 S2: rates of about 50%, although that might be an artifact 137 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:31,489 S2: of sort of only the most sort of extreme cases 138 00:07:31,490 --> 00:07:34,809 S2: get reported. But for, for this strain, we've actually only 139 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:36,970 S2: seen a mortality rate of more like 2%. 140 00:07:37,090 --> 00:07:39,410 S1: And for humans, for humans, for humans. 141 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:41,890 S2: Exactly. But a lot, a lot of things would need 142 00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:44,450 S2: to happen evolutionarily for this virus to be able to 143 00:07:44,490 --> 00:07:47,290 S2: jump into humans properly and actually spread between us. At 144 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:51,210 S2: the moment, it remains adapted mostly to the gut cells 145 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:54,690 S2: of birds, which is mostly how it spreads. It can't 146 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:58,250 S2: really latch on very well to human respiratory cells, which 147 00:07:58,250 --> 00:08:00,330 S2: is another reason why we can't really spread it very 148 00:08:00,330 --> 00:08:03,770 S2: well between each other. But in saying that, authorities have 149 00:08:03,770 --> 00:08:07,290 S2: said that, you know, we can actually all help reduce 150 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:10,489 S2: the slight risk of bird flu to humans by getting 151 00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:14,330 S2: our seasonal flu shot. Because one of the issues with 152 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:17,730 S2: influenza viruses is that they love to recombine with each other. 153 00:08:17,850 --> 00:08:21,170 S2: So if you had a scenario where there was a 154 00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:23,210 S2: human and it's a very low chance, but a chance 155 00:08:23,210 --> 00:08:26,930 S2: nonetheless that a human were co-infected with bird flu and 156 00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:30,650 S2: human influenza, you're actually giving the chance, giving the virus 157 00:08:30,650 --> 00:08:33,650 S2: the chance to reshuffle its genetics within the human body 158 00:08:33,650 --> 00:08:37,090 S2: and possibly give rise to a new type of sickness 159 00:08:37,090 --> 00:08:40,170 S2: that could more easily infect people. Again, the risk is 160 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:42,650 S2: very low, but that can also happen in other animals 161 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:45,850 S2: such as pigs. Pigs are another species that can catch 162 00:08:45,850 --> 00:08:48,290 S2: bird flu and human flu at the same time. So 163 00:08:48,290 --> 00:08:50,930 S2: there are another sort of petri dish or, you know, 164 00:08:50,970 --> 00:08:54,329 S2: reshuffling vessel that scientists are a little bit worried about, 165 00:08:54,330 --> 00:08:57,050 S2: but overall, the risk to humans is very low. Like 166 00:08:57,050 --> 00:08:59,290 S2: I said, this virus is everywhere and there has been 167 00:08:59,290 --> 00:09:02,010 S2: no no sign that it is emerging in a big 168 00:09:02,010 --> 00:09:03,330 S2: way in humans whatsoever. 169 00:09:07,010 --> 00:09:07,930 S1: After the break. 170 00:09:08,410 --> 00:09:11,530 S2: That's when it becomes like a bushfire, uncontrollable. And once 171 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:15,569 S2: it's in those local wildlife populations, there is very, very, 172 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:18,770 S2: very little we can do practically to stop the virus 173 00:09:18,770 --> 00:09:20,290 S2: basically ripping through them. 174 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:35,730 S1: And I wanted to ask you about one other potential risk, 175 00:09:35,730 --> 00:09:38,770 S1: I guess, with this latest strain of bird flu arriving here, 176 00:09:38,770 --> 00:09:42,449 S1: because you wrote that biosecurity experts have likened the six 177 00:09:42,490 --> 00:09:47,050 S1: seabirds arriving at Australian beaches to ember attacks. I guess 178 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:48,850 S1: just tell us about that. Like, how much of a 179 00:09:48,850 --> 00:09:52,569 S1: risk of all of this just absolutely flaring up and 180 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:54,090 S1: getting out of control, is there? 181 00:09:54,250 --> 00:09:55,930 S3: Well, this is the big question, Sam. 182 00:09:55,929 --> 00:09:59,090 S2: Like we're seeing obviously these little birds wash up on 183 00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:02,330 S2: the Australian shore. Everyone is like a little spot fire, 184 00:10:02,330 --> 00:10:05,490 S2: if you like. On the edge of Australia, surveyors are 185 00:10:05,490 --> 00:10:08,730 S2: racing to get there before scavengers do. Although those birds 186 00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:13,170 S2: spread the virus into local bird populations, because once that 187 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:17,650 S2: virus goes from a little single, isolated incident like we've 188 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:21,130 S2: been seeing into the natural bird population, that's when it 189 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:24,570 S2: becomes like a bushfire, uncontrollable. And once it's in those 190 00:10:24,610 --> 00:10:28,730 S2: local wildlife populations, there is very, very, very little we 191 00:10:28,730 --> 00:10:32,610 S2: can do practically to stop the virus basically ripping through them. 192 00:10:32,610 --> 00:10:35,810 S2: And to be honest, it's really, really difficult to see 193 00:10:35,809 --> 00:10:40,490 S2: how a place like Australia, which has such a vast coastline, 194 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:45,730 S2: could possibly stop the virus from coming in permanently. All 195 00:10:45,730 --> 00:10:48,330 S2: it would take is one bird washing up on an 196 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:52,450 S2: unpatrolled beach that isn't found before a scavenger pecks added 197 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:55,770 S2: that scavenger takes it into the local wildlife population and 198 00:10:55,770 --> 00:10:58,010 S2: then you've got a bushfire on your hands. It's kind 199 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:01,010 S2: of you know, it may not happen, but I think 200 00:11:01,050 --> 00:11:04,130 S2: the sensible consensus is that this is possibly a bit 201 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:06,050 S2: of an inevitability for Australia. 202 00:11:06,410 --> 00:11:08,890 S1: And so what does that mean? What's the sticky end 203 00:11:08,890 --> 00:11:11,810 S1: of that eventuality? Like, say this does rip into the 204 00:11:11,809 --> 00:11:15,050 S1: local bird population. What's the consequence of that? 205 00:11:15,290 --> 00:11:17,850 S2: I mean, overseas, like I said, we've seen entire colonies 206 00:11:17,850 --> 00:11:20,690 S2: of birds collapse. It could push certain species to the 207 00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:24,210 S2: brink of extinction. Essentially, we'll just see the virus circulate 208 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:28,809 S2: in natural populations until it sort of becomes just part 209 00:11:28,809 --> 00:11:31,209 S2: of the part of the woodwork. Exactly how we've seen 210 00:11:31,210 --> 00:11:35,449 S2: Covid just become sort of from this huge pandemic virus 211 00:11:35,450 --> 00:11:38,770 S2: to kind of just like a virus that circulates naturally 212 00:11:38,770 --> 00:11:41,370 S2: alongside the common cold and flu. The same thing will 213 00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:44,250 S2: happen in wildlife populations. But unfortunately, what we will see 214 00:11:44,250 --> 00:11:48,890 S2: is mass deaths, probably if that happens, and obviously, if 215 00:11:48,929 --> 00:11:54,850 S2: the virus gets into local wild bird populations that very 216 00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:58,290 S2: much ups the risk of it getting into chicken farms 217 00:11:58,290 --> 00:12:01,089 S2: and the poultry industry, because, for example, it would only 218 00:12:01,090 --> 00:12:04,210 S2: take one wild duck to fly over a chicken farm, 219 00:12:04,210 --> 00:12:07,609 S2: defecate into the chicken farm, and then suddenly you've exposed 220 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:11,370 S2: that poultry to this virus. So there's a link here 221 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:14,530 S2: between the health of wild birds, the health of our 222 00:12:14,530 --> 00:12:17,410 S2: poultry industry, and sort of in one way, us. 223 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:20,130 S1: And so you mentioned there before that, okay, with the 224 00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:22,490 S1: size of Australia, with the amount of coastline that we've got, 225 00:12:22,530 --> 00:12:25,290 S1: it's inevitable really that this is going to happen. So 226 00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:28,530 S1: does that mean our poultry farmers, just on absolute tenterhooks 227 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:30,810 S1: at the moment, like, is this what we're staring down 228 00:12:30,809 --> 00:12:33,570 S1: the barrel of happening that, you know, poultry farms being 229 00:12:33,610 --> 00:12:37,810 S1: absolutely decimated by this virus? And, you know, obviously the 230 00:12:37,809 --> 00:12:41,010 S1: horrible deaths of all these animals, but also just chicken prices, 231 00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:44,290 S1: egg prices just skyrocketing. Like, is that what we're looking 232 00:12:44,290 --> 00:12:45,290 S1: down the barrel of? 233 00:12:45,570 --> 00:12:48,810 S2: Look, not necessarily when it comes to the poultry industry, 234 00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:51,050 S2: you know, because they've had to deal with other strains 235 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:54,460 S2: of bird flu. Over the past years. And they. They 236 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,860 S2: have to crack down, obviously very strongly that with biosecurity measures, 237 00:12:57,860 --> 00:13:01,100 S2: which often involves the mass culling of chickens. But every 238 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:04,740 S2: one of these bird flu incursions in previous years has 239 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:08,420 S2: been successfully contained. Obviously, if it did get into the 240 00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:11,340 S2: poultry population, we would see an increase in things like 241 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:14,500 S2: egg and chicken prices, probably, but there has been no 242 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:17,340 S2: evidence whatsoever of that. So experts have said not to panic. Buy. 243 00:13:17,340 --> 00:13:20,140 S2: Just keep buying your chicken and your eggs as normal. 244 00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:23,140 S2: And the other thing about the poultry industry, I guess 245 00:13:23,140 --> 00:13:26,380 S2: compared to something like wild birds, is that we have 246 00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:29,460 S2: a lot more control over those birds, right? You know, 247 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:31,660 S2: there's a, there's a body that sort of looks after 248 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:34,940 S2: animal disease preparedness. And they actually just recommended over the 249 00:13:34,940 --> 00:13:38,980 S2: weekend that states encourage poultry producers to be able to 250 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,939 S2: keep their free range flocks indoors for a little bit, 251 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:45,140 S2: just as we try and figure out what level of 252 00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:48,380 S2: risk we're talking about here. Because for all the, I guess, 253 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:51,300 S2: you know, the disaster that could happen. What we've seen 254 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:54,260 S2: so far is just six cases. That could be it. 255 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,660 S2: You know, maybe it won't flare into this big bushfire 256 00:13:57,660 --> 00:14:01,300 S2: that experts are fearing. And like I said, poultry farmers 257 00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:04,060 S2: vary across having to deal with this by security threat. 258 00:14:04,059 --> 00:14:05,699 S2: And they'll continue to do that. 259 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:07,500 S1: And just to wrap up, Angus, I just wanted to 260 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:10,460 S1: ask you, you mentioned before that the difference between this 261 00:14:10,460 --> 00:14:12,580 S1: particular bird strain flu and the one that we spoke 262 00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:15,420 S1: about in 2021, when we last spoke about the previous 263 00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:19,180 S1: strain that had come here and caused problems, is, of course, 264 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:22,540 S1: that this one likes to jump species. And in particular, 265 00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:25,260 S1: of course, obviously when it jumps into mammals, us being mammals, 266 00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:27,020 S1: that's when it gets, I guess, quite frightening on a 267 00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:29,300 S1: personal level. So is what we should be on the 268 00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:31,500 S1: lookout for. For those of us who are reading across 269 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,060 S1: this like that, if it jumps into pigs here, then 270 00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:37,100 S1: it's a real scary sort of scenario. Is that something 271 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:38,300 S1: we should be looking out for? 272 00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:41,860 S2: I mean, possibly it's certainly it's certainly a scenario that 273 00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:45,780 S2: worries scientists. But again, like I said before, even though 274 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:48,820 S2: it's a possibility, this virus has been circulating widely in 275 00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:51,580 S2: dairy cows in the US, for example, and we haven't 276 00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:55,460 S2: seen the re-emergence of a virus that's more dangerous to people. 277 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:58,580 S2: So just because I guess it's come to Australia, obviously 278 00:14:58,580 --> 00:15:03,180 S2: that does open the opportunities for it to infect different species, 279 00:15:03,180 --> 00:15:07,980 S2: infect other livestock like pigs, and possibly recombine and re-emerge 280 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:10,380 S2: as a worse virus. But in terms of the numbers game, 281 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:12,940 S2: you know, there's far less people and pigs than livestock 282 00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:15,140 S2: in Australia than there is in places like Asia and 283 00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:17,300 S2: the US, where this virus has been circulating for a 284 00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:20,020 S2: number of years and we haven't seen disaster yet. So 285 00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:23,220 S2: it is a concern and scientists are monitoring it. But 286 00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:26,300 S2: the status at the moment is to be alert, not alarmed. 287 00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:33,220 S1: Low-fat Angus. Well, thank you so much for coming back 288 00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:34,900 S1: onto the podcast anytime. 289 00:15:34,940 --> 00:15:35,620 S2: Thanks, Sam. 290 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:51,940 S1: In other news today, record numbers of Australians are making 291 00:15:51,940 --> 00:15:55,340 S1: the switch to electric cars as new data proves modern 292 00:15:55,340 --> 00:15:59,540 S1: batteries last far longer than early adopters were warned. The 293 00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:02,780 S1: head of the Productivity Commission has warned that young Australians 294 00:16:02,780 --> 00:16:06,060 S1: hopes of good paying jobs and starting a family are 295 00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:10,940 S1: being frustrated by a dysfunctional housing market. And with 7 296 00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:14,700 S1: billion eggs consumed in Australia every year, we break down 297 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,820 S1: the packaging codes on cartons so you know exactly what 298 00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:21,500 S1: you're buying and eating. You can read more at the 299 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:29,300 S1: age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. 300 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:33,060 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 301 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:36,860 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 302 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,860 S1: our show, follow the Morning Edition and leave a review 303 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:43,300 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.