1 00:00:08,539 --> 00:00:11,870 S1: Hey there. I am Osman Farooqui, and this is The Drop, 2 00:00:11,869 --> 00:00:14,960 S1: a weekly culture show from The Age and Sydney Morning Herald, 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,419 S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of 4 00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:21,590 S1: pop culture and entertainment. There are really only two great 5 00:00:21,590 --> 00:00:25,279 S1: film franchises of the 21st century. The first is my 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,640 S1: favourite The Fast and the Furious, which I'll have plenty 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,920 S1: more to say about in May with the release of 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,860 S1: Fast Ten. The other one is the John Wick series, 9 00:00:33,860 --> 00:00:37,519 S1: starring Keanu Reeves. These movies are about a hitman who 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,640 S1: goes on a murderous rampage seeking vengeance over his dead dog. 11 00:00:41,659 --> 00:00:46,070 S1: They're inventive, fun and wildly popular. The most recent film, 12 00:00:46,070 --> 00:00:49,250 S1: for example, John Wick, Chapter four, has just hit cinemas 13 00:00:49,250 --> 00:00:52,790 S1: and raked in over $200 million at the box office 14 00:00:52,790 --> 00:00:56,180 S1: over its opening weekend. So I was pretty shocked when 15 00:00:56,180 --> 00:01:00,080 S1: my colleague Rob Moran, a man I generally love and respect, 16 00:01:00,170 --> 00:01:04,400 S1: wrote a story deriding the movies as overrated. I decided 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,340 S1: there was only one way really to resolve the tension 18 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:10,250 S1: between us. It was to invite him onto the podcast 19 00:01:10,250 --> 00:01:12,800 S1: and decide which one of us should be. In the 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,559 S1: words of the John Wick universe declared ex Comunicado. 21 00:01:16,850 --> 00:01:21,230 S2: Under the old laws, only one can survive failure to 22 00:01:21,230 --> 00:01:25,910 S2: meet its sunrise or result an execution. 23 00:01:29,190 --> 00:01:30,060 S3: Last words. 24 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:33,360 S1: Winston Rodman. How are you going, my friend? 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,399 S4: I'm good. How are you? I'm good. 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,369 S1: But I've got some issues to take up with you. Rob. 27 00:01:38,370 --> 00:01:42,270 S1: You are my Bubba Yeager. You wrote a story last 28 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:45,510 S1: week about why you think the John Wick franchise, which 29 00:01:45,510 --> 00:01:49,860 S1: maybe is my second favorite film franchise ever after the 30 00:01:49,860 --> 00:01:54,120 S1: Fast and Furious, was overrated. What prompted you to have 31 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,410 S1: such a terrible take? 32 00:01:55,410 --> 00:01:57,930 S5: I'm sorry I offended you as well as all the 33 00:01:57,930 --> 00:02:00,930 S5: random people who've been emailing me with the subject line. 34 00:02:00,930 --> 00:02:03,890 S5: Your review of John Wick sucks, so. Well. 35 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:07,710 S1: That's just me under 50 different pseudonym. It could be. 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,600 S5: You know, with that piece, I just wanted to rant 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,630 S5: about how these guys have no idea what Baba Yaga is. 38 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,700 S5: It's like such an imposing. You were so. 39 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,870 S1: Specific. You said, We all know that it's a grandmother 40 00:02:21,870 --> 00:02:24,180 S1: with chicken legs. I'm like, We don't all know that. 41 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:25,020 S1: What are you talking about? 42 00:02:25,020 --> 00:02:27,000 S5: It's in every kid's book. I think you learn that 43 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,320 S5: in kindergarten, right? 44 00:02:28,889 --> 00:02:32,070 S1: What kid were you raised in? Russia? What kids books 45 00:02:32,070 --> 00:02:33,000 S1: are you talking about? 46 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:36,930 S5: So classic fairy tales of a of the 80s and 47 00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:40,080 S5: 90s don't dinner. That was my main go to issue 48 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,610 S5: that I was like I need to I need to 49 00:02:41,610 --> 00:02:44,700 S5: set the story straight. How is this feared hit man 50 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,040 S5: named Baba Yaga and no one in the in the 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,410 S5: cinematic universe has commented on this. 52 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:55,200 S1: So aside from your obsession with the the wrong language 53 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,100 S1: and terminology being used for for boogeyman, you did you 54 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:02,280 S1: did raise some points about this franchise and why you 55 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,160 S1: don't think it deserves the hype that it has received. 56 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,840 S1: So I thought it would be sort of fun to 57 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,970 S1: kind of duke it out with you and talk a 58 00:03:08,970 --> 00:03:11,399 S1: bit about maybe even we could call it a debate 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,829 S1: about whether or not the John Wick movies are good, 60 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:17,130 S1: whether they're terrible, whether they're overhyped. But before we kind 61 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:21,269 S1: of get into the nitty gritty of that discussion, let's 62 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:24,510 S1: talk about the films a bit more generally. So the 63 00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:29,010 S1: first one came out in 2014 starring Keanu Reeves, obviously, 64 00:03:29,010 --> 00:03:31,380 S1: who was a star of this franchise, directed by a 65 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:34,890 S1: guy called Chad Stahelski who actually worked with County. He 66 00:03:34,890 --> 00:03:38,520 S1: was kind of a stunt double on the Matrix movies. 67 00:03:38,730 --> 00:03:41,340 S1: The movie was independently financed and produced, so didn't have 68 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:44,010 S1: a huge budget. And Keanu at this point was in 69 00:03:44,010 --> 00:03:46,710 S1: a bit of a a career lull, like nothing he'd 70 00:03:46,710 --> 00:03:49,470 S1: done had kind of blown up since maybe the lake 71 00:03:49,470 --> 00:03:51,090 S1: house in 2006. 72 00:03:51,090 --> 00:03:51,510 S4: Right. 73 00:03:51,780 --> 00:03:53,820 S5: A much a much better movie, by the way, than 74 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:56,520 S5: any of the John Wick films. This is I feel, 75 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,820 S5: part of the problem. Right. Okay. Keanu joined this franchise 76 00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:01,800 S5: as a favor to his friend to start with. 77 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:02,550 S4: Yeah, but I don't. 78 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:04,500 S1: Know why that automatically means that it's not good. 79 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:06,600 S5: I don't think either any of them felt that it 80 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,380 S5: would be anything more than just one movie. And then, okay, 81 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,450 S5: that first movie became a surprise hit. Like, okay, that 82 00:04:13,450 --> 00:04:15,630 S5: looks kind of fun. Let's make another one. Then they 83 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:16,529 S5: make another one. 84 00:04:16,550 --> 00:04:17,040 S4: Well, about. 85 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,850 S1: Why it became a hit because it did kind of 86 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:24,270 S1: come out of nowhere and it didn't just become a 87 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:28,710 S1: moderate box office hit. It got huge critical acclaim like 88 00:04:28,710 --> 00:04:32,070 S1: these movies, as you pointed out in your piece, have 89 00:04:32,070 --> 00:04:35,160 S1: an average Rotten Tomatoes score of 88%. And obviously Rotten 90 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,830 S1: Tomatoes is a little bit reductive. It's not the be 91 00:04:37,830 --> 00:04:40,679 S1: all and end all of critical reviewing, but it is 92 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,289 S1: fascinating for what is a pretty by the numbers action 93 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:48,000 S1: franchise to get such comprehensive consensus amongst critics and it 94 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,700 S1: seems like a lot of that focused not so much 95 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:53,550 S1: on the story or the acting or the dialogue of 96 00:04:53,550 --> 00:04:56,969 S1: which there is minimal amounts. But on the way that 97 00:04:56,970 --> 00:04:59,460 S1: these movies were shot, the way that the stunts work, 98 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:04,560 S1: because in an era of Marvel dominated CGI focused action 99 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,289 S1: stuff where there's quick cuts, you're kind of really in 100 00:05:07,290 --> 00:05:10,830 S1: the detail. These movies took a moment to breathe. They 101 00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:13,530 S1: sort of step things back. They have wide shots, they 102 00:05:13,529 --> 00:05:16,170 S1: have long takes, and a lot of the stunt work 103 00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:18,390 S1: is is real. And I think it might just be 104 00:05:18,390 --> 00:05:20,190 S1: the fact that this felt like a bit of an 105 00:05:20,190 --> 00:05:25,050 S1: antidote to the superhero dominated box office that we've been 106 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:27,810 S1: seeing for the past couple of decades. Though in some ways, 107 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:30,960 S1: John Wick is also basically a superhero without being called 108 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,320 S1: a superhero because he is essentially indestructible. Right? That's fair 109 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:35,220 S1: to say. Yeah. 110 00:05:35,220 --> 00:05:37,800 S5: I think that's the thing with these films, the stunt 111 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,940 S5: work is the the main part of it, right? Obviously, 112 00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:46,320 S5: the filmmakers like priority, like you see in like the 113 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,230 S5: kind of the grappling that they do and the grunts. 114 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:51,990 S5: And it's like it seems like very personal to the filmmaker, 115 00:05:51,990 --> 00:05:54,990 S5: like the way he's envisioned this thing, like how film 116 00:05:54,990 --> 00:05:57,780 S5: stunt work should be like these kind of action things. 117 00:05:57,779 --> 00:06:00,150 S5: I can appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah. 118 00:06:00,150 --> 00:06:04,680 S1: And you get actors becoming directors, you get writers becoming directors, 119 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,500 S1: and they all bring their own kind of emphasis to 120 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:09,119 S1: what sort of stories should be told and how it 121 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,550 S1: should look on screen. Having a stunt guy who's made 122 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:15,240 S1: some of the best action movies of all time be 123 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,810 S1: given the reins to kind of show from his perspective 124 00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:20,940 S1: how an entire film would look. It was made by 125 00:06:20,940 --> 00:06:22,800 S1: stunt guys is kind of cool. And you know. 126 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,990 S5: What? That you know what that film will look like 127 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:31,450 S5: ten minutes of reloading your weapons. Every shootout. Number four 128 00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:33,820 S5: doesn't have as much reloading. Maybe they heard some of 129 00:06:33,820 --> 00:06:36,490 S5: the criticism or they needed to cut the running time 130 00:06:36,490 --> 00:06:39,940 S5: from three hours down to two hours. 50. Yeah. 131 00:06:41,050 --> 00:06:43,780 S1: You're stepping on your arguments here. But the last thing 132 00:06:43,779 --> 00:06:45,760 S1: I want to say before we oil up and get 133 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,250 S1: into the ring, I think, you know, as much as 134 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:52,270 S1: these movies are not about the story, it's worth touching 135 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:55,750 S1: on it briefly, because I think it is almost hilarious 136 00:06:55,750 --> 00:07:00,400 S1: in its simplicity. Right. The first one is about John Wick. 137 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,250 S1: You know, the the guy the movie's named after, he's 138 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,310 S1: an assassin, but he's retired as we find out, because 139 00:07:06,310 --> 00:07:09,370 S1: he's fallen in love with his wife, played by Bridget Monaghan. 140 00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:14,560 S1: And he has somehow gotten out of this underworld of assassins. 141 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:15,070 S4: He's so. 142 00:07:15,070 --> 00:07:18,880 S5: Retired that he buried his weapons in an under cement 143 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,310 S5: and he had to dig them out with a. 144 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:22,030 S4: He has to use a. 145 00:07:22,030 --> 00:07:25,870 S1: Sledgehammer to get his gold coins. It's pretty it's it's 146 00:07:25,870 --> 00:07:29,980 S1: a pretty extraordinary sequence. His wife passes away from some 147 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:32,800 S1: kind of long term illness, which is very sad. But 148 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,480 S1: just before she dies, she buys him a cute little 149 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,600 S1: puppy dog, which is essentially an avatar for her. Right. 150 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,850 S1: It's like the only thing that he loves in this world. 151 00:07:42,850 --> 00:07:46,480 S1: That dog, unfortunately, very early on in the movie, is 152 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,960 S1: killed by a Russian hitman or a Russian sort of 153 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,800 S1: gangster's son played by Alfie Allen, Lily Allen's younger brother. 154 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,230 S1: And that is the kind of key moment that is 155 00:07:56,230 --> 00:08:00,040 S1: the impetus for Wick to get that jackhammer out, to 156 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,910 S1: open up his cachet of guns and little gold coins 157 00:08:03,910 --> 00:08:05,560 S1: and start killing people. 158 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,130 S6: I lost everything. That dog was a final gift for 159 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:10,270 S6: my dying wife. 160 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:15,000 S7: Jonathan, you got out Once you dip so much as 161 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,880 S7: a pinky back into this pond, you may find something 162 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,520 S7: reaching out to pull you back in. 163 00:08:21,180 --> 00:08:22,350 S6: It's personal. 164 00:08:24,490 --> 00:08:28,180 S8: It's not what you did, son. It's who you did 165 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:28,870 S8: it to. 166 00:08:30,610 --> 00:08:33,700 S9: Nobody. That. Nobody. 167 00:08:38,610 --> 00:08:39,570 S10: Is John Wick. 168 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:45,400 S1: Some. And is it crazy? Yes. Yeah. 169 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:47,490 S5: He's also upset about his car, I believe. 170 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,290 S1: Yeah. Yeah, he's upset about his car, which we later 171 00:08:49,290 --> 00:08:51,420 S1: find out in, I think the third movie or the 172 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:54,239 S1: second film, he really only needed because I had a 173 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,839 S1: little photo of his wife that's right. In the glove box. 174 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,949 S1: So this is a movie about a man who loves 175 00:08:58,950 --> 00:09:03,300 S1: his wife, has her brutally ripped away from her, and 176 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:05,520 S1: then seeks to get revenge on the people who took 177 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,979 S1: away the one thing that reminded him of her, his 178 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:11,400 S1: dog and that photo. I don't think that's a terrible 179 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,770 S1: basis for a plot, but you seem to have a 180 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:14,550 S1: lot of problems with it. 181 00:09:14,550 --> 00:09:15,120 S4: I'm fine with. 182 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,089 S5: That. I'm fine with that plot. But it seems like 183 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:21,540 S5: the plot is just there so they can get to 184 00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:24,719 S5: the fighting, right? Like I came to the first film 185 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,090 S5: after all the hype, so I was already entering it 186 00:09:27,090 --> 00:09:30,210 S5: with like some expectations. And I remember watching it going, 187 00:09:30,990 --> 00:09:35,910 S5: This is it like three scenes, three scenes, him with 188 00:09:35,910 --> 00:09:38,400 S5: his wife hugging him with his wife. It's like kind 189 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,970 S5: of like up that montage in up. But at the 190 00:09:42,059 --> 00:09:42,930 S5: start of the movie. 191 00:09:42,929 --> 00:09:43,950 S4: Right, when it. 192 00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:48,210 S1: Comes to a movie that we agree is really about 193 00:09:48,210 --> 00:09:52,590 S1: these quite extraordinarily filmed stunt sequences. I don't want a long, 194 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:56,429 S1: drawn out drama of romance. I want that to be 195 00:09:56,429 --> 00:09:58,020 S1: a little bit of a back story. And then I 196 00:09:58,020 --> 00:10:00,030 S1: want to see people going for it, killing each other. 197 00:10:00,030 --> 00:10:02,099 S5: But then there's no there's nothing driving the rest of 198 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:05,400 S5: the movie except let's move to the next action sequence. 199 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,459 S5: This is just the stuff they need to get out 200 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:10,500 S5: of the way so they can get to the next 201 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:15,390 S5: action sequence. Like that's all that that they care about. Personally, 202 00:10:15,390 --> 00:10:20,520 S5: I don't see that as like peak cinema the way 88% 203 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,640 S5: Rotten Tomatoes kind of represents or whatever. I think I 204 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,290 S5: wrote in the article like I can get behind the 205 00:10:25,290 --> 00:10:29,730 S5: idea of cinema is a is obviously like a visual medium. 206 00:10:29,730 --> 00:10:34,170 S5: So the fact that it's not so wordy that Keanu 207 00:10:34,170 --> 00:10:37,710 S5: has like one one line each movie, that's fine. But 208 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,500 S5: this takes it to kind of a ludicrous extent, like 209 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:43,319 S5: because it's still a narrative film, like it's driven by 210 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,530 S5: some sort of plot, but it's just this like shallow 211 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:50,010 S5: writing just to get to the next point and we'll 212 00:10:50,010 --> 00:10:52,800 S5: probably talk about this a bit more. They change the 213 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,240 S5: rules every like 20 minutes. Ian McShane is the character. 214 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,540 S5: He's there to push the plot forward and the lines 215 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:03,030 S5: he gets kind of underwrite the rules of this whole 216 00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:06,510 S5: world that they've built up. So every new movie, he's like, Oh, 217 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:09,900 S5: you didn't know that? The high table says you can 218 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:12,240 S5: do a duel, a one on one duel, and then 219 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,430 S5: you'll be an excommunicated or whatever the term was. And 220 00:11:17,429 --> 00:11:19,320 S5: they're like, okay. And he was like, Oh, I didn't 221 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,170 S5: know that. It's like, Yeah, that's an ancient rule. We 222 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,540 S5: should have told you that earlier, I guess. And then 223 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:25,829 S5: the plot continues. 224 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:28,470 S1: You've pointed out the one plot hole in the entire movie, 225 00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:30,569 S1: and I'll give you that, I think. I think there's 226 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:32,429 S1: two things that I'm going to say, I think, to 227 00:11:32,429 --> 00:11:37,050 S1: your criticisms that it's a thinly written plot. I think 228 00:11:37,050 --> 00:11:40,290 S1: there are two rebuttals to that. One is it is 229 00:11:40,290 --> 00:11:43,590 S1: a bare bones plot. I'm not going to deny that. 230 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:45,990 S1: It is a plot that is based around what is 231 00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:50,400 S1: the least we can say and do to create a 232 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,010 S1: sequence of events that lead to a whole bunch of 233 00:11:53,010 --> 00:11:57,720 S1: like quite beautiful and fascinating and very over-the-top action sequences, 234 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:58,229 S1: I think. 235 00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:58,980 S4: Correct. 236 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:00,870 S1: That is what they're trying to do, and I think 237 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:02,940 S1: we should sort of judge them on that. But I 238 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:05,550 S1: think at the same time, and I'm really interested in 239 00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:07,949 S1: your view on this because to be honest, I thought 240 00:12:07,950 --> 00:12:10,620 S1: you might have been seduced by this part of the 241 00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:14,309 S1: movie because as the franchise goes on into the second, 242 00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:18,840 S1: third and fourth installments, this universe of these underworld assassins 243 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,440 S1: opens up. We discover all these wacky rules. We discover 244 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,070 S1: these the kind of like the women with the tattoos 245 00:12:26,070 --> 00:12:29,939 S1: who are running this underground call center. The code. Wait, wait. 246 00:12:29,940 --> 00:12:30,420 S4: Wait, wait. 247 00:12:30,420 --> 00:12:32,490 S5: Did you hear what you just said? These women with 248 00:12:32,490 --> 00:12:35,370 S5: tattoos running an underground call center. That's great. 249 00:12:35,370 --> 00:12:35,820 S4: You didn't. 250 00:12:35,820 --> 00:12:36,750 S5: Laugh when you said. 251 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,110 S4: That. 252 00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:39,900 S1: So you don't think that works? You think. You think 253 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:41,520 S1: that is just over the top and ludicrous? 254 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,760 S5: All that kind of endless, like, arcane rituals that they 255 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,980 S5: have is just ridiculous. Like the branding with fire, the 256 00:12:49,980 --> 00:12:54,030 S5: endless card games, the Latin constant Latin for no reason 257 00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:57,060 S5: at all, just because they think it seems smart. Like 258 00:12:57,059 --> 00:13:00,510 S5: I saw number four and an old guy puts out 259 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,440 S5: an hourglass to to mark the passing of time. He's like, 260 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,559 S5: You've got an hour. And he puts down an hourglass 261 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,550 S5: and sand drips down. It's like, just put your stopwatch 262 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:12,630 S5: on or something. Right? 263 00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:15,329 S1: But don't you think the movies are very aware of 264 00:13:15,330 --> 00:13:19,830 S1: like that? This is obviously all a confected series of 265 00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:23,309 S1: of kind of gimmicks to both create this sense of 266 00:13:23,309 --> 00:13:26,730 S1: majesty when we're talking about the criminal underworld, but also 267 00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:28,850 S1: to have a bit of fun in these movies. Like 268 00:13:28,860 --> 00:13:31,230 S1: I kind of am a bit surprised because you're not 269 00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:33,449 S1: like a movie snob, like you like a lot of fun. 270 00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:35,760 S1: Silly stuff. Yes. But for some reason, something about this 271 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,230 S1: franchise has rubbed you the wrong way. 272 00:13:37,230 --> 00:13:39,990 S5: Right? Like, I remember these movies back when I was 273 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:43,000 S5: a teenager or whatever, these kind of. Be like, be 274 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,610 S5: great action movies. And I feel like they were always 275 00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:47,770 S5: kind of overlooked and no one kind of treated them 276 00:13:47,770 --> 00:13:51,910 S5: with respect, right? Like kind of disposable films. And it 277 00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:56,380 S5: feels like we've kind of overcorrected too much with this. 278 00:13:56,620 --> 00:14:00,250 S5: The fact that it's been like, acclaimed unanimously is kind 279 00:14:00,250 --> 00:14:02,470 S5: of nuts to me. I guess the generations who grew 280 00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:05,020 S5: up with that are now critics. And we reached a 281 00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:07,929 S5: point where everyone was like, Hey, remember these movies that 282 00:14:07,929 --> 00:14:11,190 S5: everyone said were horrible when we grew up? They were good. 283 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,950 S5: But it's like there's been a tilt too much towards 284 00:14:14,950 --> 00:14:18,520 S5: appreciating the beauty and art or whatever in these kinds 285 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,180 S5: of films. And it's like you've lost sight that there's 286 00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:24,610 S5: totally ridiculous stuff in this. 287 00:14:25,090 --> 00:14:26,710 S1: I think there's something interesting on what you're saying. I 288 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:31,030 S1: kind of think like, yes, like 99% of action movies 289 00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:33,910 S1: with a high concept. It doesn't really make sense if 290 00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:36,400 S1: you poke a couple of holes at it. Yeah, but 291 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,670 S1: I don't think that's unique for literally any franchise. But 292 00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:44,080 S1: I think your question, how are they so universally acclaimed 293 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,200 S1: when they are at their core? Kind of just like fun, 294 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,260 S1: silly action movies is actually really interesting because I think 295 00:14:50,260 --> 00:14:52,390 S1: I am also a bit confused by that. Like I 296 00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:55,960 S1: think these are fun and enjoyable movies, but I was 297 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,260 S1: so shocked reading the reviews for the most recent one, 298 00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:02,410 S1: which I really like, where like The New Yorker's Richard Brody, 299 00:15:02,410 --> 00:15:05,470 S1: a very esteemed kind of, you know, film critic, is 300 00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:12,520 S1: saying in an incredibly great franchise, this is an unmissable installment. Yeah, 301 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:15,070 S1: that maybe is a little bit ludicrous. 302 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:15,520 S4: Yeah. 303 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,070 S5: Like I remember one of those movies that I always 304 00:15:18,070 --> 00:15:21,430 S5: like huge with, with like, young boys. I remember like 305 00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:24,400 S5: Blood in Blood Out and all those kind of mafia, like, 306 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,820 S5: you know, gangster films. This feels to me like that. 307 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:30,670 S5: But for some reason it's been recognized as like, I 308 00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:34,990 S5: don't know, an Oscar worthy kind of franchise, which is 309 00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:38,380 S5: what confuses me and which is what why I wrote 310 00:15:38,380 --> 00:15:40,330 S5: the thing because I was like kind of. 311 00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:41,770 S4: Hey, like, what. 312 00:15:41,770 --> 00:15:43,360 S5: Do we what do we kind of think in here? 313 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:44,500 S4: You know, I did hear a. 314 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:47,200 S1: Critic say that the Oscars need to introduce a stunt 315 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,920 S1: category at the next ceremony just to ensure that John 316 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 S1: Wick gets an Academy Award. But I wonder, like I 317 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,100 S1: do want to talk to you about this. I want 318 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:58,270 S1: to talk about why we think the franchise, even if 319 00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:04,600 S1: I think it's more critically interesting and more film worthy 320 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,590 S1: than you do, I want to figure out why it 321 00:16:08,590 --> 00:16:10,570 S1: seems to have resonated at this point. I sort of 322 00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:13,270 S1: mentioned earlier on in the conversation that I think it 323 00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:16,540 S1: might have something to do with the fact that. The 324 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:20,380 S1: action genre, which is really up until very recently, the 325 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:24,310 S1: genre that dominated the box office was itself dominated by 326 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:28,900 S1: superhero IP, comic book sort of things. And John Wick 327 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:32,380 S1: has now, I guess, ironically, become IP in and of itself. 328 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:35,290 S1: There's full movies, there's another spin off starring and ARM 329 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:38,020 S1: is coming, there's a TV show coming. But at the 330 00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:40,570 S1: time of the first film, it was a completely new, 331 00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:43,540 S1: unique story that was doing action in a way that 332 00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:46,480 S1: felt different to what the other big blockbusters were doing. 333 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,480 S1: That surely plays some role into why people were so 334 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,180 S1: intrigued by it, do you think? 335 00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:53,830 S5: Yeah, definitely. I mean, do you think that the first 336 00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:56,200 S5: film would have been a hit if Keanu wasn't in it? 337 00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:58,450 S5: I feel like it kind of coasted on his like, 338 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:00,730 S5: likability and his kind of star power. 339 00:17:00,730 --> 00:17:01,330 S4: I think it. 340 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,000 S1: Is likeability for sure. And I think the other part 341 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,180 S1: of this franchise and its success is that Keanu as 342 00:17:07,180 --> 00:17:10,150 S1: a character in our lives in the real world, has 343 00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:14,020 S1: become a more interesting and significant figure, right? Like people 344 00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:17,050 S1: really love him. There was the wave of kind of 345 00:17:17,050 --> 00:17:20,140 S1: the sad Keanu memes. Then there was the information about 346 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:24,010 S1: his own sort of tragic, like personal life. I guess 347 00:17:24,010 --> 00:17:26,770 S1: these stories that keep coming up about how much of 348 00:17:26,770 --> 00:17:29,410 S1: a great guy he is and how much he looks 349 00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:31,840 S1: after his classmates and his friends and how much he 350 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,540 S1: helps pay the salaries of crew to kind of lift 351 00:17:34,540 --> 00:17:36,609 S1: them all to the same level. So there's part of 352 00:17:36,609 --> 00:17:40,510 S1: I think watching this movie is about rooting for Keanu 353 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:43,270 S1: and wanting him to like get the success that he 354 00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:46,179 S1: never really replicated after The Matrix. What do you think 355 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:46,540 S1: about that? 356 00:17:46,540 --> 00:17:47,560 S4: Yeah, I agree with that. 357 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,810 S5: And then he does it three more times and you're like, 358 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:54,250 S5: you know, come on, you want to try something else now, Keanu? 359 00:17:56,050 --> 00:17:58,960 S1: Is there anything about these movies you do like, Rob? 360 00:17:59,350 --> 00:18:03,400 S5: Yeah. I mean, the action sequences you I can appreciate. Like, 361 00:18:03,820 --> 00:18:08,740 S5: there's some inventive stuff. Like, I think it was parabellum 362 00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:11,620 S5: maybe number three with that kind of knife throwing thing, 363 00:18:11,619 --> 00:18:13,929 S5: which was just hilarious to me. And the and the 364 00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:18,609 S5: kind of the way that he like extends the scene 365 00:18:18,609 --> 00:18:21,220 S5: to the point of comedy. Like it just keeps going 366 00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:24,639 S5: and going. And in this last one, there's another scene that, 367 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,940 S5: you know, I guess we shouldn't really talk about. But 368 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,149 S5: towards the end and it was probably the only point 369 00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:34,119 S5: where the cinema kind of cracked up laughing altogether. And 370 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,790 S5: I was like, Yeah, this I like this bit. 371 00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:37,930 S4: What about the performances? 372 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:40,330 S1: Because I think you mentioned McShane earlier is an extraordinary 373 00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:43,960 S1: character actor. But on top of that, we've got Lance Reddick, 374 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,369 S1: who really sadly just recently passed away, who plays the 375 00:18:48,369 --> 00:18:53,230 S1: concierge to to Ian Mcshane's hotel manager. We've got Halle 376 00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:56,020 S1: Berry in the third movie, Laurence Fishburne in the second, 377 00:18:56,020 --> 00:18:58,959 S1: third and fourth like these like Laurence Fishburne. Overacting in 378 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,590 S1: this to me really cemented that. Everyone is sort of 379 00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:05,500 S1: doing a bit in these movies. You know, like somebody 380 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,830 S1: please get this man a gun. 381 00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:12,280 S5: His maniacal cackle that he does after every. 382 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:13,390 S4: Line and even. 383 00:19:13,390 --> 00:19:15,790 S1: His entire casting in this sort of just feels like 384 00:19:15,790 --> 00:19:18,190 S1: a nod to the Matrix movies, right? Like, that's why 385 00:19:18,190 --> 00:19:20,290 S1: he's in these movies. Yeah. To play against Keanu. And 386 00:19:20,290 --> 00:19:22,570 S1: so I think there's an element of me that sort 387 00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:25,990 S1: of sees these great character actors coming in as them, 388 00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:27,730 S1: wanting to have a bit of fun, but also the 389 00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:31,860 S1: constant references to things like The Matrix, to the, you know, 390 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,330 S1: kung fu martial arts movies of the 80s and 90s. 391 00:19:34,330 --> 00:19:35,710 S1: It's a bit of a meta take. 392 00:19:35,710 --> 00:19:39,510 S5: The the neo Morpheus thing seemed like a cheap of, 393 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:42,940 S5: I don't know, I guess it's kind of you know 394 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,760 S5: for fans of pop culture you're like, fine, I can 395 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,480 S5: appreciate it. 396 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,200 S1: I'm still shocked at your resistance to understand to getting 397 00:19:50,590 --> 00:19:53,080 S1: like you call it. I'm throwing you up some of 398 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,220 S1: the best things. 399 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,900 S4: I'm just being contrarian now. 400 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,740 S5: Obviously. But Lance Reddick, you know, for such a small role, 401 00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,189 S5: he is memorable in that scene. And I guess it 402 00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:06,040 S5: does have part to do with the way the characters 403 00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:10,330 S5: are written as so like stern machismo. No one really 404 00:20:10,330 --> 00:20:14,140 S5: talks a lot. Everyone follows this, the kind of rules 405 00:20:14,140 --> 00:20:16,660 S5: and duty, and they have their own kind of laws 406 00:20:16,660 --> 00:20:18,939 S5: around honor and all this stuff. That's what they're all 407 00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:19,900 S5: playing with. Right. 408 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,419 S1: I want to talk about those rules for a second, 409 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:27,369 S1: because you mentioned how much the movie, the first film's intro, 410 00:20:27,369 --> 00:20:29,980 S1: reminded you of a video game. And I think so 411 00:20:29,980 --> 00:20:33,699 S1: much of this entire franchise seems to be modeled on 412 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:37,119 S1: the same rules that video games operate within, right? Like 413 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,360 S1: you have to reload. There are mini bosses. Yeah, there's 414 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:41,949 S1: a certain number of people you've got to kill. There's 415 00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:44,950 S1: a base you can go to to essentially recharge, get 416 00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:49,180 S1: healed and like restock up on your ammunitions and kind 417 00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:51,730 S1: of supplies it. Yeah, it really does feel like the 418 00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:54,189 S1: other audience these movies are going for are just people 419 00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:56,020 S1: who love kind of first person shooters. 420 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:58,660 S5: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you get like a whole 421 00:20:58,660 --> 00:21:03,160 S5: scene where Laurence Fishburne is saying that like technical kind 422 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,280 S5: of dimensions of of the pistol that he's got or whatever, 423 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:10,750 S5: this is like, you know, amping like what's the term 424 00:21:10,750 --> 00:21:15,280 S5: where you kind of shift up your, your weaponry in gaming. 425 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,430 S5: Like that's what that felt to me. Yeah. Upgrade, upgrade. 426 00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:20,439 S5: That's the word. Like a lot of the kind of 427 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,010 S5: action sequences do seem inspired by video game as well. 428 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:26,500 S5: Like there's the hiding behind the wall and kind of 429 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:29,320 S5: the camera following him around. And number four has one 430 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,590 S5: that's shot from an aerial view that's like, you know, 431 00:21:32,590 --> 00:21:36,310 S5: it's pretty impressive because he's got a flamethrower and stuff, 432 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:38,169 S5: but you're like, Yeah, this is a video game I'm 433 00:21:38,170 --> 00:21:39,100 S5: watching right now. 434 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:40,960 S1: That weapon that he has, which is sort of like 435 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,800 S1: a grenade launcher that turns into a flamethrower. I don't 436 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,680 S1: know if that thing's real, but it's an incredible invention. 437 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,139 S1: And then we actually go top down. Yeah. So before 438 00:21:50,140 --> 00:21:51,550 S1: we get into the fourth film, because I do want 439 00:21:51,550 --> 00:21:53,680 S1: to talk to you a bit about it in detail, 440 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,600 S1: whether or not you liked it, just because I think 441 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,360 S1: it does some more interesting stuff and expands the universe 442 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,810 S1: even more. Yeah, I think to do this properly, it's 443 00:22:01,810 --> 00:22:03,760 S1: worth giving a bit of a spoiler warning because I 444 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,889 S1: think you can't really talk about what's happening in the 445 00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:09,310 S1: fourth movie without acknowledging what happened in the last couple. 446 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:11,590 S1: And we're talking about rules a fair bit. So there's 447 00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:14,920 S1: this one rule that is the constant throughout the franchise, 448 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,699 S1: which is no business can be conducted on continental grounds. 449 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,730 S1: And what that basically means in normal people language is 450 00:22:21,730 --> 00:22:24,070 S1: that in this hotel where all the assassins chill out 451 00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:27,130 S1: the continental, you can't kill anyone. Well, John, at the 452 00:22:27,130 --> 00:22:30,340 S1: end of the second film breaks that rule. He shoots 453 00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:33,640 S1: someone in the head and spends the next two movies 454 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,650 S1: trying to deal with the consequences of that. 455 00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:39,220 S11: Do you expect you to make it out? 456 00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:43,300 S7: A $14 million bounty on his head. Everyone in this 457 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:47,320 S7: city wants a piece of it. I'd say the odds 458 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,010 S7: are about even. 459 00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:52,990 S1: And ultimately, that brings us to the fourth, where he 460 00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:56,889 S1: is trying to, I guess, free himself from all the 461 00:22:56,890 --> 00:23:00,909 S1: people trying to kill him from breaking that rule. He 462 00:23:00,910 --> 00:23:05,440 S1: is being chased by an old friend of his played 463 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,129 S1: by Donnie Yen, who is a hitman, who's been enlisted 464 00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:11,930 S1: by the ultimate bad guys here. The high Table Donnie 465 00:23:11,950 --> 00:23:15,159 S1: ends introduction to this franchise. I feel like even though 466 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,670 S1: I have already enjoyed these first three movies, added something 467 00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:21,970 S1: like added a bit of, I don't know, gravitas or 468 00:23:21,970 --> 00:23:24,580 S1: legitimacy in this action world. What do you what did 469 00:23:24,580 --> 00:23:25,240 S1: you think about that? 470 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,050 S4: I thought his character. 471 00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:28,090 S5: Was the best thing about all the movies so far. 472 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,900 S5: He's playing this blind assassin. They've got that that backstory 473 00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,060 S5: where he's, you know, trying to get out of there 474 00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:36,429 S5: to just to go live with his daughter, who's a 475 00:23:36,430 --> 00:23:39,590 S5: violinist in Washington Square Park or something, I don't know. 476 00:23:41,859 --> 00:23:45,010 S5: But he's got some amazing moves. Like obviously you see 477 00:23:45,010 --> 00:23:49,780 S5: his expertise and his his history with martial arts and, 478 00:23:49,780 --> 00:23:52,930 S5: you know, Hong Kong kind of filmmaking, just these little 479 00:23:52,930 --> 00:23:56,530 S5: moves that he does. I was like, I needed that humor. Like, 480 00:23:56,530 --> 00:23:59,470 S5: I feel like these these movies feel very stern all 481 00:23:59,470 --> 00:24:01,600 S5: the way through. And even if the humor is like, 482 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,179 S5: deadpan in there, no one seems to be kind of 483 00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:07,120 S5: winking at all. Donnie Yen comes in and he does 484 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,240 S5: come like these wind up Popeye punches. I'm like, That 485 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,190 S5: is amazing. This movie needs that. 486 00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:13,010 S4: Yeah, yeah. 487 00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:15,640 S1: It just seemed like he got it a bit clearer. 488 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,000 S1: I was able to express that balance between I'm a 489 00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:21,850 S1: serious hitman who's worried about his daughter and I'm here 490 00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:24,040 S1: to kill a lot of people. But also this whole 491 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,140 S1: thing is ludicrous. And I'm playing a blind guy who 492 00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:29,979 S1: was extremely good at killing people with my sword. And 493 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:31,869 S1: that's sort of a fine line to work. But I 494 00:24:31,869 --> 00:24:36,430 S1: think his ability to execute at that level, pardon the pun, 495 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,520 S1: does kind of add a bit of a glue that 496 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,409 S1: I think does make things work. So I'm interested in 497 00:24:41,410 --> 00:24:43,840 S1: the fact that you did think that that sort of 498 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,240 S1: helped make the whole thing a little bit more sensible. 499 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,139 S4: Yeah, definitely. 500 00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:49,780 S5: The villain in this guy is one of the the, 501 00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:51,910 S5: the Skarsgard kids, right? 502 00:24:51,910 --> 00:24:52,270 S4: Yeah. 503 00:24:52,270 --> 00:24:56,470 S1: Bill Skarsgard, Alexander's younger brother, Stalin's younger, younger son. 504 00:24:58,600 --> 00:24:59,800 S6: Who is this? 505 00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:08,440 S12: The new day is dawning. New ideas, The Who's new management. 506 00:25:08,619 --> 00:25:10,990 S12: You come here thinking there is a way out of 507 00:25:10,990 --> 00:25:12,670 S12: this world for you, Mr. Wick. 508 00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:15,790 S13: Or is not. 509 00:25:17,470 --> 00:25:19,210 S1: What did you make of his Mikey? 510 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,219 S5: He plays this kind of effeminate dandy, loves drinking tea and, 511 00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:26,740 S5: you know, and the whole thing against him. He's the 512 00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:29,470 S5: villain because he won't fight his own fight. This is 513 00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:31,899 S5: part of the machismo that I'm talking about that I 514 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:33,379 S5: dislike about these films. 515 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,920 S1: I thought he was such a weird and wacky character. 516 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,800 S1: But I think, again, I think he was sort of 517 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,500 S1: in on it. Like there are these facial facial twitches 518 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,990 S1: that he does and he sort of trying to be 519 00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:47,830 S1: this like. I want to say again, like Comic Bookish 520 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:49,840 S1: like this is what's so weird about these movies is 521 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,859 S1: that they are almost superhero comic book movies without that 522 00:25:53,859 --> 00:25:57,280 S1: source material. He wears these completely over the top three 523 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,650 S1: piece suits. He has like 3 or 4 different versions 524 00:25:59,650 --> 00:26:02,410 S1: of the same suit, but in different colors and fabrics. 525 00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:07,270 S1: And he's so cartoonish. But I guess one of the 526 00:26:07,270 --> 00:26:10,360 S1: main tension points between you and I in this whole conversation, Rob, 527 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,580 S1: is how much I seem to think is deliberate and 528 00:26:12,580 --> 00:26:14,740 S1: knowing and how much you seem to think is just 529 00:26:14,740 --> 00:26:18,070 S1: like happening on accident and therefore doesn't work. 530 00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:21,250 S5: Like to me, the screenplays are written by monkeys just 531 00:26:21,250 --> 00:26:24,129 S5: typing away in a room, just waiting to get to 532 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:27,580 S5: the next action sequence. So I'm like, It's too dumb 533 00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:29,110 S5: for me to like. 534 00:26:29,710 --> 00:26:31,119 S4: To catch on with. What are the. 535 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,710 S1: Kinds of action movies that you see as being more elevated, 536 00:26:35,710 --> 00:26:39,490 S1: more character driven, more interestingly plotted than John Wick? 537 00:26:39,550 --> 00:26:41,950 S5: This is another thing that I was trying to think about. 538 00:26:41,950 --> 00:26:44,409 S5: I'm not like a huge action guy to begin with, right? 539 00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:47,199 S5: So I would prefer to see Keanu Reeves in a 540 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,310 S5: rom com with Winona Ryder, like set in autumn. But 541 00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:53,770 S5: I was thinking like, like. 542 00:26:54,670 --> 00:26:55,810 S4: You can do that. That movie. 543 00:26:55,810 --> 00:26:58,240 S1: Exists. Rob You can watch that. That's not John Wick 544 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,890 S1: is not taking away from that movie. 545 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,010 S5: Ten years of his life has been taken away from 546 00:27:03,220 --> 00:27:04,210 S5: by John Wick. 547 00:27:06,130 --> 00:27:06,879 S1: That's fair. 548 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,570 S4: That's fair. 549 00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:11,420 S5: I was remembering like the films I loved, like, you know, 550 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,750 S5: a better Tomorrow, like all these John Woo ones with 551 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:17,260 S5: the kind of slow motion that this is obviously an 552 00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:20,980 S5: acolyte of like a follower of. And I don't remember 553 00:27:20,980 --> 00:27:25,119 S5: the screenplay being like just goofy with those. I remember 554 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,570 S5: them like being almost Shakespearean, like a lot of family 555 00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:32,290 S5: tension and like they still had the same kind of 556 00:27:32,290 --> 00:27:36,340 S5: idea of rules, like these people operating with their own 557 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:40,210 S5: laws and rules and sense of duty. But I don't 558 00:27:40,210 --> 00:27:42,940 S5: I don't remember, like scoffing, but maybe it was just 559 00:27:42,940 --> 00:27:44,140 S5: at the time I watched it. 560 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:45,100 S4: Who knows? Yeah. 561 00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:47,890 S1: I mean, the other difference here is that you are 562 00:27:47,890 --> 00:27:50,380 S1: like 20 years older than you were when you're watching 563 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:54,040 S1: those movies. And I'm, I, I don't think that the 564 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,820 S1: entire fan base of these films are like teenage boys, 565 00:27:57,820 --> 00:28:01,120 S1: but I think that's probably a significant fan base and 566 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,670 S1: that's who you were when you love those movies that 567 00:28:03,670 --> 00:28:06,430 S1: you sort of fondly look back on. But I still 568 00:28:06,430 --> 00:28:08,770 S1: think it is. I do genuinely think it's fascinating that 569 00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:14,619 S1: there is such a broad mass appeal from high end, 570 00:28:14,619 --> 00:28:19,030 S1: kind of high brow in quotation marks, cultural critics to 571 00:28:19,030 --> 00:28:21,970 S1: this franchise. And part of me thinks that even though 572 00:28:21,970 --> 00:28:24,969 S1: I think they are pretty great films, I think part 573 00:28:24,970 --> 00:28:27,129 S1: of it does come back to this bigger question of 574 00:28:27,130 --> 00:28:32,200 S1: they feel like a because they're independently produced, even though 575 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,110 S1: they now have quite big budgets and because they are 576 00:28:35,109 --> 00:28:38,650 S1: sort of original storytelling, though when you've got four films, 577 00:28:38,650 --> 00:28:40,750 S1: who really knows what that means anymore? They're sort of 578 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:43,570 S1: seen by a lot of people in the industry as 579 00:28:43,570 --> 00:28:47,710 S1: a as a rebuff to the domination of Disney and 580 00:28:47,710 --> 00:28:48,850 S1: Marvel and. 581 00:28:48,850 --> 00:28:50,320 S4: DC Yeah. 582 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,270 S5: And I think that's part of the problem with like 583 00:28:52,270 --> 00:28:55,810 S5: Parabellum and this one, almost this one to a lesser extent, 584 00:28:55,810 --> 00:28:59,230 S5: because it seems to kind of tie up a lot 585 00:28:59,230 --> 00:29:02,530 S5: of the story, but parabellum it seemed to like just 586 00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:05,650 S5: expand it for no reason, like this one as well. 587 00:29:05,650 --> 00:29:08,230 S5: It's like three hours long and there's it starts with 588 00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:10,180 S5: a scene in the desert that has nothing to do 589 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:14,200 S5: with anything like horseback riding. It's like, cut that out, please. 590 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,540 S5: Like to tighten this film up. 591 00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:18,160 S4: Have you seen. 592 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,290 S1: A little movie called Lawrence of Arabia? 593 00:29:20,290 --> 00:29:22,360 S5: Yes, I have seen it. And I don't need a 594 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,210 S5: one minute reference to it at the beginning of John 595 00:29:25,210 --> 00:29:26,110 S5: Wick four. 596 00:29:26,110 --> 00:29:28,660 S1: Well, unlike you, I do need a one minute reference 597 00:29:28,660 --> 00:29:30,250 S1: to it at the beginning of John Wick four, and 598 00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:32,170 S1: in fact could do with more of it. In more. 599 00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:33,820 S4: Movies, we'll. 600 00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:34,390 S5: Find you that. 601 00:29:34,390 --> 00:29:35,020 S4: Genre. 602 00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:37,690 S1: I sort of forced you to watch this fourth movie 603 00:29:37,690 --> 00:29:40,240 S1: to talk to me about it. If another movie comes 604 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,520 S1: out or, you know, for talking about the anonymous spinoff, 605 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,550 S1: The Ballerina, will you give it a crack? Are you 606 00:29:45,550 --> 00:29:47,170 S1: are you vaguely interested? Are you just over it? You 607 00:29:47,170 --> 00:29:49,540 S1: don't want to support this movie franchise anymore? 608 00:29:49,810 --> 00:29:50,590 S5: I'll watch it. 609 00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:51,250 S4: If. 610 00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:54,190 S5: If it gets if it has this kind of swell 611 00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:56,620 S5: of support again and this kind of acclaim like I'll 612 00:29:56,620 --> 00:29:58,960 S5: always watch it just to see what the hell's going on. 613 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,770 S5: If it bums completely, I'll also watch it because a 614 00:30:02,770 --> 00:30:07,720 S5: bit of schadenfreude but also yeah what happened now people 615 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,020 S5: are over it with for it seems like they've flooded 616 00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:16,540 S5: a lot of different areas they can go beyond, you know, 617 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,490 S5: like to continue this franchise. 618 00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:19,090 S4: Definitely There's. 619 00:30:19,090 --> 00:30:21,460 S1: Prequels, there's all sorts of spinoffs that could happen. 620 00:30:21,460 --> 00:30:21,910 S4: Now. 621 00:30:21,910 --> 00:30:24,850 S5: Yeah. And I'm like, This is going to be too 622 00:30:24,850 --> 00:30:28,270 S5: much If it just keeps going forever, it's just it 623 00:30:28,270 --> 00:30:29,110 S5: needs to stop. 624 00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:29,770 S4: I kind of. 625 00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:32,080 S1: Agree with that. I think the thing that risks blowing 626 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,220 S1: up the franchise in what is being quite a specific 627 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:40,300 S1: contained world at this moment is the story of John Wick, 628 00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:42,220 S1: and I can see why they would be tempted to 629 00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:45,620 S1: explore so many other things, but I think. Yolngu and 630 00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:47,380 S1: the love for Kana is a huge part of it. Yeah, 631 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,850 S1: and the absence of him in these spin offs I 632 00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:53,600 S1: think will make it less gripping. But I think it's 633 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,880 S1: also really interesting that even someone like yourself who really 634 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,640 S1: doesn't like the movies said you'd watch the next one, 635 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,060 S1: whether it was good or bad. So I guess, you know, 636 00:31:02,060 --> 00:31:06,440 S1: it's an admission that there's something entertaining and enthralling there. 637 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,460 S1: You're really Rob, one of the only people in my 638 00:31:10,460 --> 00:31:13,610 S1: life that don't enjoy these movies. And I'm fascinated by 639 00:31:13,610 --> 00:31:15,260 S1: that because I think we see eye to eye on 640 00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:16,880 S1: so much of popular culture. 641 00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:17,510 S4: Did you watch the. 642 00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:19,160 S5: First one when it came out in the cinema? Like, 643 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,479 S5: did you come to it straight away? 644 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:21,260 S4: No, I watched. 645 00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:23,420 S1: It a couple of years after that. I was living 646 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:24,890 S1: in a share house and I think it was summer 647 00:31:24,890 --> 00:31:26,480 S1: and we had nothing to do. And we're like, Oh, 648 00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:29,240 S1: these movies look like fun. And I think we're like, 649 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,940 S1: Why haven't I heard about this franchise? This is great. 650 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,940 S5: Okay, so you did go into it with with no 651 00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:36,230 S5: kind of prior knowledge. 652 00:31:36,410 --> 00:31:39,530 S1: Exactly. And I think that's probably maybe the challenge that 653 00:31:39,530 --> 00:31:41,300 S1: you and others coming in a bit later have is 654 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,000 S1: that anything that's been built up to this extent can't 655 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,850 S1: quite hit. Yeah, but if you just had no idea 656 00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:49,190 S1: and you just saw this and you're like, Whoa, this 657 00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:51,410 S1: is kind of cool and not like anything else, you're 658 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:52,209 S1: kind of into it. 659 00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:52,850 S4: Yeah. 660 00:31:52,850 --> 00:31:54,920 S5: Like all I knew was kind of the me premise 661 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,610 S5: about the dog and the revenge. And I was like, 662 00:31:58,610 --> 00:32:00,920 S5: That sounds fun. It's kind of like taking or something, right? 663 00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:04,490 S5: Liam Neeson And then you watch it and the script 664 00:32:04,490 --> 00:32:08,209 S5: is so dumb and it's just plot holes after plot hole. 665 00:32:08,210 --> 00:32:11,860 S5: And you know, Ian McShane forced to do all the 666 00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:16,160 S5: the motor moving for the plot and it kind of 667 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,520 S5: was like this this can't be it and it's continued 668 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:20,450 S5: for three more. 669 00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:23,000 S1: Well, here's a question for you maybe to round out 670 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,570 S1: the conversation is if someone listened to this, hasn't seen 671 00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:28,550 S1: the friend, I don't know who left, who's left listening 672 00:32:28,550 --> 00:32:31,520 S1: to this to us. But if someone listening to this 673 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,100 S1: hasn't watched any of these movies, do you think they 674 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:35,360 S1: should give it a go or do you think they 675 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,070 S1: should just stick with the lake house? 676 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:39,860 S5: Well, watch the lake house first. If you haven't seen 677 00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:42,980 S5: the lake house, maybe you can do a Keanu double 678 00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:47,000 S5: a marathon night. The lake house followed by John Wick. 679 00:32:48,050 --> 00:32:49,880 S1: It's a great double lake house. And John Wick. 680 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:50,840 S4: Yeah, Yeah. 681 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,270 S5: You could be like the the guy at the cinema 682 00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:55,970 S5: next to me. When I saw number four, he was 683 00:32:55,970 --> 00:32:59,090 S5: asleep within ten minutes of number four snoring. 684 00:32:59,330 --> 00:33:01,160 S1: This has way more to do with that guy's day 685 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,780 S1: than it does about the quality of this movie. You 686 00:33:02,780 --> 00:33:05,240 S1: cannot snore. You cannot fall asleep at the start of 687 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,810 S1: these movies if you haven't already done something to make 688 00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:11,360 S1: you very tired. They're very, very entertaining films. At the 689 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,110 S1: very least. 690 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,070 S4: He was in. 691 00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:16,040 S5: Chef's clothes. Yeah, he had a busy day, I believe. 692 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,640 S1: Rob, you're fired. And you're never allowed to have an 693 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,240 S1: opinion on cinema again. Thank you very much for sharing 694 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,830 S1: your wrong takes on John Wick with me. 695 00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:27,890 S5: Let's do it again. When Ana de Armas as the 696 00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:30,950 S5: ballerina happens, or whatever it's called. 697 00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:33,920 S1: If it gets you watching that movie, you're on. Thank you, mate. 698 00:33:34,370 --> 00:33:39,260 S1: All right. This episode of The Drop was produced by 699 00:33:39,260 --> 00:33:43,160 S1: David McMillan. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode, make 700 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,530 S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Give 701 00:33:45,530 --> 00:33:47,920 S1: us a review or better yet, share it with a friend. 702 00:33:47,930 --> 00:33:50,000 S1: I'm Osman Farooqui. See you soon.