1 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,960 S1: Christopher Nolan's $250 million film The Odyssey was always going 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,520 S1: to inspire and enrage fans. That's what you get when 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,479 S1: you take on one of the oldest surviving stories in 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,680 S1: history and refashioning the hero at its center for your 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,240 S1: own purposes. I'm Samantha Zellinger Maurice, and you're listening to 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,120 S1: The Morning Edition from The Age and the Sydney Morning 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,519 S1: Herald today. Daniel Mendelsohn, editor at large for the New 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,600 S1: York Review of Books and a translator of The Odyssey 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,760 S1: on what Christopher Nolan is trying to tell us with 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,280 S1: his version and why it's provoked Elon Musk and Donald 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:57,320 S1: Trump Jr. It's July the 22nd. Welcome, Daniel, to the podcast. 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,160 S2: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,680 S1: First up, can you just briefly tell us the story 14 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,480 S1: of the Odyssey, and then perhaps your reflections on what 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,800 S1: it is about this epic poem. It's nearly 3000 years 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,960 S1: old that you know. Why do we keep coming back 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:11,479 S1: to it? 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,720 S2: Well, the Odyssey belonged to a vast group of of 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,800 S2: epic poems, almost all of which have disappeared except for 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,240 S2: the Iliad and the Odyssey that treated the Trojan War. 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,600 S2: It's the run up to the war, the reasons for 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,759 S2: the war, the war itself and its aftermath. So it's 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,880 S2: the story of how the great hero Odysseus, who was 24 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:42,640 S2: famed above all for his trickery, his cleverness, his intellectual power, 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,360 S2: his way with words, took ten years to get home 26 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,000 S2: after the war was over because he was cursed by 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,120 S2: the sea god Poseidon. So we are with him as 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,360 S2: he either remembers all these incredible things that happened to 29 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,000 S2: him on the way home, or as we follow him 30 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,350 S2: in the final stages of his homecoming journey, which are 31 00:02:05,350 --> 00:02:10,669 S2: filled with shipwrecks and encounters with witches and seductresses and 32 00:02:10,669 --> 00:02:14,350 S2: monsters and whirlpools. And the other half of the story 33 00:02:14,350 --> 00:02:17,510 S2: is what's going on at home. He has. When he 34 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:19,829 S2: went off to war 20 years ago, he left a 35 00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:23,590 S2: young wife and a newborn baby. It's now 20 years later. 36 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:26,310 S2: The wife has been holding out, hoping that he will 37 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:31,870 S2: come home. Meanwhile, there are 108 young men from the 38 00:02:31,870 --> 00:02:35,830 S2: island and the surrounding islands who are courting her because 39 00:02:35,830 --> 00:02:40,590 S2: they want to now replace the missing Odysseus, whom everyone 40 00:02:40,590 --> 00:02:46,870 S2: assumes has is MIA or war dead? Long dead. Once 41 00:02:46,870 --> 00:02:49,190 S2: he gets home, he has to get rid of these 42 00:02:49,190 --> 00:02:52,390 S2: 108 guys who had been camping out in his castle 43 00:02:52,389 --> 00:02:57,110 S2: for the past several years. So there's a climactic, incredible 44 00:02:57,110 --> 00:03:02,350 S2: revenge story as well. Why does it have eternal appeal? 45 00:03:02,590 --> 00:03:05,950 S2: Everybody wants a little spice and adventure in their lives. 46 00:03:06,190 --> 00:03:09,829 S2: But we also want a home. We want stable relationships. 47 00:03:10,150 --> 00:03:12,430 S2: ET cetera. ET cetera. And the Odyssey sort of gives 48 00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:15,669 S2: you both of these. It allows us to indulge our 49 00:03:15,669 --> 00:03:22,550 S2: fantasies of adventure and encountering new kinds of things. But ultimately, 50 00:03:22,990 --> 00:03:27,269 S2: it is the story of, you know, there's no place 51 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:30,430 S2: like home. So I do think it speaks to something 52 00:03:30,430 --> 00:03:32,270 S2: very deep inside of us. 53 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:36,070 S1: It's quite amazing. And you have written that over many years. 54 00:03:36,590 --> 00:03:39,510 S1: You know, other poets have taken Odysseus and sort of 55 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:44,030 S1: refashioned him for their own purposes. You know, in Dante's Inferno, Odysseus, 56 00:03:44,030 --> 00:03:48,670 S1: who's called Ulysses, is damned for deceitfulness and madly sails 57 00:03:48,670 --> 00:03:50,350 S1: over the edge of the world. And then you've written 58 00:03:50,350 --> 00:03:54,470 S1: that in the 19th century, Odysseus perpetual restlessness made him 59 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:57,110 S1: a romantic hero. So what do you think of how 60 00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:01,390 S1: Christopher Nolan has refashioned his hero? And what do you 61 00:04:01,390 --> 00:04:03,619 S1: think it tells us about the time that we're living in. 62 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:06,420 S1: You know, perhaps something that Christopher Nolan thinks we need 63 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:07,860 S1: to hear or be reminded of. 64 00:04:08,500 --> 00:04:11,860 S2: Well, certainly, I mean, you know, the Odyssey has made 65 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:18,420 S2: this character available to subsequent generations. And so, Nolan, I'm 66 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:21,220 S2: a big Nolan fan. I have admired a lot of 67 00:04:21,220 --> 00:04:27,460 S2: his movies. I think he's a very ingenious, very ingenious filmmaker. 68 00:04:27,620 --> 00:04:29,820 S2: So I was quite excited when I heard he was 69 00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:34,940 S2: doing The Odyssey, actually. And what he has done is 70 00:04:34,940 --> 00:04:38,339 S2: he has taken, you know, the hero of the Odyssey. 71 00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:42,740 S2: And if you if you've watched Christopher Nolan films, you 72 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:45,740 S2: know that there's a very specific type of hero that 73 00:04:45,740 --> 00:04:52,940 S2: he keeps organizing these movies around, you know, tormented dark 74 00:04:53,779 --> 00:04:57,900 S2: men who are haunted by guilt, whether it's Batman in 75 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:02,580 S2: The Dark Knight series or Oppenheimer, you know, men who 76 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:06,540 S2: have great power but feel guilty about it. And what 77 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:09,700 S2: what Nolan has done in this film is to turn 78 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:16,740 S2: our charming, clever, seductive, amusing, James Bond ish Odysseus into 79 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:20,900 S2: a guilt ridden hero. So this sort of operative theme 80 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:24,300 S2: of the movie is that he's tormented by guilt about 81 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,100 S2: having won the Trojan War and the terrible destruction of 82 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:33,460 S2: Troy that followed the Greek victory, which, as everybody knows, 83 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:37,060 S2: even if you haven't read The Odyssey, was made possible 84 00:05:37,060 --> 00:05:40,740 S2: by the Trojan Horse. That's how the Greeks finally infiltrated 85 00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:42,980 S2: the city of Troy. And the Trojan Horse, by the way, 86 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:48,340 S2: was Odysseus idea, because he's the great trickster. So it 87 00:05:48,339 --> 00:05:52,980 S2: is a. It is not Homer's Odysseus. It is very 88 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:56,220 S2: much of a Christopher Nolan. Odysseus. 89 00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:58,099 S3: Do you think that. 90 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:02,180 S1: That message is particularly resonant, perhaps, in this geopolitical climate 91 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:05,370 S1: in which obviously. Um yeah. Well, tell us how. 92 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:10,610 S2: Well, remember, you know, guilt is a modern notion. The 93 00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:15,849 S2: Greeks didn't experience guilt. They experienced what anthropologists call a 94 00:06:15,850 --> 00:06:19,770 S2: shame culture. So you acted in a certain way because 95 00:06:19,770 --> 00:06:23,890 S2: you didn't want to be shamed by other people in 96 00:06:23,890 --> 00:06:28,570 S2: your group, not because you felt an internal sense of guilt, 97 00:06:28,610 --> 00:06:31,969 S2: but because this shame was being imposed from outside. So 98 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:35,050 S2: it's not a very Greek notion, but I do think 99 00:06:35,089 --> 00:06:38,810 S2: your point is very well taken. Certainly this kind of 100 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:44,130 S2: guilt ridden character is the kind of character we're familiar with. 101 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:48,970 S2: And I also do think that Nolan has gotten something 102 00:06:49,010 --> 00:06:54,010 S2: very right that is also very much in Homer's Odyssey, 103 00:06:54,370 --> 00:06:59,529 S2: which is Odysseus is a loner. You know, in the Iliad, 104 00:06:59,570 --> 00:07:02,529 S2: the prequel to The Odyssey. It's a it's a war story. 105 00:07:02,529 --> 00:07:05,729 S2: So there's a lot of guys and their comrades and 106 00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:08,010 S2: they have fights, but they have to get along. And 107 00:07:09,010 --> 00:07:13,250 S2: this is about one guy trying to make his home 108 00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:16,930 S2: through a kind of post-apocalyptic landscape where he doesn't know 109 00:07:16,930 --> 00:07:20,570 S2: the rules anymore. The other thing that's worth saying is, 110 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:22,930 S2: in the Iliad, the gods are all over the place. 111 00:07:23,330 --> 00:07:26,170 S2: They're in the plot, they're pulling strings. They're hooking up. 112 00:07:26,170 --> 00:07:30,450 S2: They're there on the battlefield. They're fighting with their favorite mortals. 113 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:33,610 S2: They're watching the action in the Odyssey. They're basically gone. 114 00:07:34,530 --> 00:07:38,410 S2: Athena sometimes shows up, but otherwise you really feel that 115 00:07:38,410 --> 00:07:42,530 S2: this is a person alone in a sinister landscape where 116 00:07:42,530 --> 00:07:46,570 S2: the old rules don't apply anymore. And for that reason, 117 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:49,210 S2: I feel it's very modern. 118 00:07:49,210 --> 00:07:50,730 S3: And is I mean, is that particularly. 119 00:07:50,730 --> 00:07:53,210 S1: Resonant in the Donald Trump era, do you think? 120 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:59,610 S4: Well. Daniel, I don't know what I don't know what's. 121 00:07:59,610 --> 00:08:01,130 S2: Resonant in the Donald Trump. 122 00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:02,970 S3: Era. Well, I guess well, I guess just just hearing 123 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:04,809 S3: what you were speaking of, I know. 124 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:07,400 S2: But yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Oh, to be serious, you know. 125 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,480 S2: I mean, I think, you know, the old rules don't 126 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,720 S2: apply anymore. We're in a strange landscape where we have 127 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,080 S2: to figure it out all for ourselves. So I definitely 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,280 S2: do think, you know, there is I always say there's 129 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,520 S2: something kind of post about the Odyssey, if that makes sense. 130 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,720 S2: You know, we're in we're in new territory and we 131 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,040 S2: haven't yet figured it out. And in that sense, I 132 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,520 S2: do think it speaks to modern times. You know, where 133 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,880 S2: post God knows we're post everything. You know, the the 134 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:43,199 S2: old order, certainly the global geopolitical order is falling apart. 135 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,320 S2: The order that was put in place after World War 136 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:52,359 S2: Two is obviously disintegrating, largely thanks to our president. And 137 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,360 S2: and certainly the I would say also the sort of 138 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,520 S2: just the way people talk to each other. You know, 139 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,640 S2: the rules of civil, civil conversation have disappeared. You know, 140 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,560 S2: everything is now a free for all. And so I 141 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,480 S2: do think we identify with this sense that you get 142 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,280 S2: in the odyssey of this guy doesn't know what the 143 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,600 S2: rules are. He's just making it up as he goes along. 144 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,280 S2: And that feels very modern, I think. 145 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:20,800 S1: After the break. 146 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,280 S2: Nobody in a contemporary, you know, version of a Greek 147 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,240 S2: classic is going to look anything like these people look like, 148 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,120 S2: whether they're black, white, orange or purple. And so if 149 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,960 S2: the only thing you care about is race, then that 150 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,400 S2: just says something about you. 151 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,080 S1: And what about like this theme? I think that runs 152 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,880 S1: through the poem and also the movie, which is sort 153 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,720 S1: of obligation that humans have to their fellow humans. Do 154 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,120 S1: you think that. Yeah. Christopher Nolan's film perhaps reminds us, 155 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,120 S1: in this age where obviously there's increasing geopolitical tension, there's 156 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,000 S1: two very sizable wars that I guess threaten to to 157 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,360 S1: become so-called forever wars. I mean, it's obviously a very 158 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,840 S1: dark time. Do you think he's reminding us that we 159 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,880 S1: have an obligation to our fellow citizens? 160 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,240 S2: Well, yes, there is a lot of talk, and this 161 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,600 S2: is something else I admired the film for because it 162 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,560 S2: captures something central to the epic. There's a lot of 163 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,320 S2: talk of what they call Zeus's law. So in the Odyssey, 164 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:32,240 S2: one of the. If the most important ethical law of 165 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,920 S2: the Odyssey is something that the Greeks called Xenia. It 166 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,040 S2: comes from the word xenos, which means a stranger. But 167 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,840 S2: it interestingly also means a guest because you're supposed to 168 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,560 S2: welcome strangers, even if you don't know them into your 169 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,199 S2: home as a guest. And in the movie, they call 170 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,760 S2: it Zeus's law. So in in ancient Greece, this was 171 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,960 S2: a real thing that if somebody showed up on your doorstep, 172 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,280 S2: you have to bathe them, feed them, you know, give 173 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,880 S2: them something to eat. And only then do you ask 174 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,550 S2: who they are. So this is and it's a reciprocal thing, 175 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:13,990 S2: because then if you're ever in their neighborhood, they have 176 00:11:13,990 --> 00:11:16,190 S2: to do the same thing for you. So it's a 177 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:18,470 S2: little bit sort of golden rule ish. 178 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:21,310 S1: And quite a stark contrast to the immigration policies in 179 00:11:21,309 --> 00:11:22,630 S1: your country at the moment, I guess. 180 00:11:22,670 --> 00:11:30,390 S2: Yeah. No. God knows. Yeah. And so Nolan rightly harps 181 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:35,630 S2: on this all through the movie. So, you know, for example, 182 00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:38,190 S2: the reason Odysseus, a lot of people are shocked by 183 00:11:38,190 --> 00:11:42,350 S2: the end of Homer's Odyssey because Odysseus kills all 108 184 00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:45,750 S2: of these suitors who had been pursuing his wife. And 185 00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:48,030 S2: the reason he kills him is not because they have 186 00:11:48,350 --> 00:11:52,829 S2: offended him personally, because they've been trying to marry his wife, 187 00:11:52,830 --> 00:11:56,430 S2: but because they have violated this principle by entering this 188 00:11:56,429 --> 00:11:59,670 S2: guy's house uninvited and eating him out of house and 189 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:03,630 S2: home while he's away. It's a violation of this principle 190 00:12:03,830 --> 00:12:08,510 S2: of Xenia. And, and Nolan is onto this, And he 191 00:12:08,510 --> 00:12:11,310 S2: keeps emphasizing it throughout the film in different ways. So 192 00:12:11,309 --> 00:12:15,310 S2: I think in that sense, it does feel, you know, 193 00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:20,070 S2: to connect it to what you were saying before, a 194 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:22,510 S2: little like a reminder of the way that we need 195 00:12:22,510 --> 00:12:26,429 S2: to treat each other. Because of course, you know, as 196 00:12:26,429 --> 00:12:29,710 S2: the Greek know, the Greeks knew, if you don't follow 197 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:33,750 S2: this law, which they held in the highest importance, Zeus 198 00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:38,670 S2: himself will punish you. And in fact, in this movie, 199 00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:42,710 S2: Nolan sort of twists the story a little bit, and 200 00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:45,709 S2: he makes the it's the Greeks who were guilty of 201 00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:50,829 S2: violating this by having sent the Trojan horse into Troy, 202 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:54,630 S2: which they pretended was a gift to the Trojans, but 203 00:12:54,630 --> 00:13:00,429 S2: of course contained this deadly ambush. So Nolan wants that 204 00:13:00,429 --> 00:13:05,230 S2: famous story to be seen as a violation of this 205 00:13:05,230 --> 00:13:09,060 S2: principle of guest Hospitality. 206 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,020 S1: Interesting. 207 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:13,620 S2: It is interesting, but he's hip to the fact that 208 00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:15,900 S2: this is important in the Odyssey, and he has found 209 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:17,700 S2: a way to sort of represent it. 210 00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:20,620 S1: And I wanted to ask you about something you just wrote. 211 00:13:20,620 --> 00:13:23,059 S1: You wrote an opinion piece for The New York Times 212 00:13:23,059 --> 00:13:26,900 S1: about something of an outcry, which erupted after it was 213 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:31,580 S1: revealed that the incredible actress Lupita Nyong'o was cast as 214 00:13:31,580 --> 00:13:34,460 S1: Helen of Troy. Uh, we know that Elon Musk and 215 00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:38,819 S1: Donald Trump Jr have both lashed out against this amongst others, 216 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:41,620 S1: particularly amongst, I guess, conservative circles. So I guess tell 217 00:13:41,620 --> 00:13:43,900 S1: us a bit about the outcry and what that says. 218 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:47,060 S1: If anything, I guess, about the challenges of the time 219 00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:48,260 S1: we're living in perhaps. 220 00:13:49,059 --> 00:13:52,420 S2: Yeah, I mean, I think so what happened was, you know, 221 00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:56,340 S2: over the past year or so, Nolan has been dropping 222 00:13:56,580 --> 00:14:00,459 S2: teaser trailers and, you know, which have then excited tremendous 223 00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:05,260 S2: amounts of comment. And one of the trailers revealed that 224 00:14:05,260 --> 00:14:07,860 S2: as Helen of Troy, who of course, is part of 225 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:13,860 S2: this story, Worry. He cast the Kenyan Mexican actress Lupita Nyong'o, 226 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:19,700 S2: who's an Academy Award winning actress and the, you know, 227 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:22,420 S2: the sort of right wing loonies went crazy. And they 228 00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:26,620 S2: said it was a desecration of this great Western, you know, 229 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:30,100 S2: work of Western literature. And it was, you know, I 230 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:34,460 S2: think Musk said it was pissing on Homer's grave and blah, blah, blah. 231 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:38,500 S2: There were a lot of ugly, racist comments that rose 232 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:44,340 S2: to the surface and it launched a whole global, you know, 233 00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:49,860 S2: online social media sort of firestorm of, you know, pros 234 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:54,820 S2: and cons, people defending Nolan for choosing an African, uh, 235 00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:59,100 S2: looking actress to play Helen of Troy, the legendary beauty. 236 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:03,980 S2: And people, you know, hating on him for it. As 237 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:07,220 S2: I tried to point out my piece, I mean, first 238 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:12,050 S2: of all, this is 2026. The fact is, nobody in 239 00:15:12,050 --> 00:15:16,090 S2: a contemporary, you know, version of a Greek classic is 240 00:15:16,090 --> 00:15:18,650 S2: going to look anything like these people look like, whether 241 00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:23,690 S2: they're black, white, orange or purple. And so if the 242 00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:26,650 S2: only thing you care about is race, then that just 243 00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:27,810 S2: says something about you. 244 00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:34,770 S1: Well, Daniel, it has been such a pleasure speaking with you. 245 00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:36,450 S1: Thank you so much for your time. 246 00:15:36,770 --> 00:15:39,010 S2: For me too. Thank you so much. 247 00:15:44,930 --> 00:15:49,090 S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wang. Our executive producer 248 00:15:49,090 --> 00:15:52,250 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 249 00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:56,130 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 250 00:15:56,130 --> 00:15:58,610 S1: The Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 251 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:01,450 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.