Dom: Hello and welcome to It All Adds Up the podcast
Dom: where we chat about money, how to get it, how
Dom: to spend it and how to invest it. I'm money
Dom: editor Dom Powell.
Jess: And I am senior economics writer Jess Irvine. And today
Jess: we're going to talk about the wild world of cryptocurrencies.
Dom: Yeah, we figured it was time to take a look
Dom: at crypto as it's an asset class that people often
Dom: ask us about and it's inherently quite confusing and also
Dom: quite controversial.
Jess: Yeah, definitely a bit confusing. Definitely confusing for me. It's
Jess: also an extremely volatile asset class with the price of
Jess: major cryptocurrency Bitcoin down 50% in the past year. But
Jess: hopefully by the end of this episode you'll have a
Jess: better understanding at least of what a crypto currency is
Jess: and if it's something worth investing in. But first, Dom,
Jess: I believe you do have some personal experience when it
Jess: comes to investing in crypto. We're not calling you a
Jess: crypto king, but can you, can you explain how you
Jess: got into it and how did it go for you?
Dom: Yeah, so sort of for my sins, I guess I
Dom: invested in crypto in the early part of 2017. I
Dom: think I remember reading about it online. I just read
Dom: something about Etherium, which today is the second biggest cryptocurrency,
Dom: and I was like, Oh, this is a bit interesting.
Dom: What's this all about? Went down a bit of a
Dom: rabbit hole and ended up buying some Etherium at around
Dom: the start of 2017. And they like pretty much for
Dom: the rest of that year I was like full on
Dom: like crypto trading pretty much every day, constantly looking at
Dom: my portfolio like it was a full thing.
Jess: Were you buying and selling sort of day to day?
Dom: Yeah, I like loads of different cryptos. Like I went,
Dom: I went really deep on it for that year. I
Dom: don't like to admit this because, you know, it was
Dom: I was like working full time that year too. So
Dom: until my old boss. But you know, it was it
Dom: was pretty full on. And then at the I had
Dom: this sort of I guess I told myself when I
Dom: started investing, I was like, okay, if your portfolio ever
Dom: hits like a certain level sell no matter what, just
Dom: sell like you will have. That's enough just to sell.
Dom: And I hit that level at the end of 2017
Dom: and I sold everything and I haven't touched it since.
Jess: That's an amazing level of discipline for you to just
Jess: have that number and you got to walk away from
Jess: the casino, or if it is a casino.
Dom: Pretty much was a casino really to be on, especially
Dom: at that time. Like there was no sense to any
Dom: of the valuations that anyone was giving, any of the
Dom: things that I was investing in. And half the things
Dom: that I invested in today don't exist. Like that's an
Dom: indication of while the crypto market was, but it was
Dom: purely luck because like, like I timed the market almost perfectly.
Dom: Like literally the day after I saw it, everything started
Dom: going down and went down for the next year.
Jess: And I think we should recognise that's incredibly fortunate. Yes,
Jess: there is a golden piece of timing.
Dom: I've said to people like I will never invest in
Dom: anything seriously again because I don't think I'm ever going
Dom: to get as lucky as I did with that. Like
Dom: it was just complete luck, complete privilege to have the
Dom: money to invest in the first place, all that sort
Dom: of stuff. Like I don't proclaim to be an investing
Dom: genius and you know, you should not look to me
Dom: for any sort of crypto advice. In fact, these days
Dom: I don't invest in crypto and I think that it's
Dom: kind of dumb, but, you know.
Jess: Ooh, controversial. Yeah, that's.
Dom: That's my that's my sort of done the full 180
Dom: on it since since 2017 the market has also changed
Dom: pretty significantly since 2017 as well so there's a lot
Dom: of different factors but yeah that's my, that's my crypto journey.
Jess: So it's fair to say you don't hold any crypto now,
Jess: there's no crypto currency in your digital wallet or whatever
Jess: it is. That's the way you know.
Dom: I mean, there's probably like some scraps of things like that.
Dom: I just haven't got around to selling, but nothing of
Dom: any value whatsoever. Yeah. Do not you don't invest and
Dom: have not invested for a number of years.
Jess: So I'm similar, I'm the same, I don't hold any crypto.
Jess: My story is that back at probably the time that
Jess: you were in your pyjamas wide eyed with coffee, huddling
Jess: over your laptop or however that the trading works.
Dom: That's fair. That's pretty accurate. Yeah.
Jess: I remember writing a few columns just sort of basically
Jess: saying crypto is not a thing and sort of picking
Jess: holes in a few of the arguments, particularly around scarcity,
Jess: I think because I think it was even earlier than
Jess: that when I wrote a column about Bitcoin and I'd
Jess: never really got the scarcity, I was like, Well, okay,
Jess: you might run out of things. You can mine on
Jess: that particular blockchain, but you can just have another cryptocurrency.
Jess: You could there's an infinite number of cryptocurrencies you could start,
Jess: So where's the scarcity in that? But let's, let's just
Jess: start with, you know, what is crypto? And I keep
Jess: saying cryptocurrency, they always currency, what is crypto dumb? And
Jess: we're going to arrive at a point where we both
Jess: sort of recognize whether it's something or talk about, whether
Jess: we think it's something that should be in your investment portfolio,
Jess: because I do see a lot of younger investors going, Oh,
Jess: I need to have, you know, a responsible 10% of
Jess: my portfolio should be in crypto. So I'm well-diversified. I
Jess: want to I want to get to that. But let's
Jess: for anyone who hasn't bought it or sort of is
Jess: struggling still to deal with what crypto is, what is
Jess: it done?
Dom: Well, I think it's important to to divide crypto into
Dom: two different sort of camps. You've got things like Bitcoin,
Dom: which is the one that most people know about, and
Dom: Bitcoin is effectively just a store of value and a
Dom: way to transact value like it is very often likened
Dom: to digital gold because it is, as you mentioned earlier,
Dom: it has this sort of scarcity built into it. So
Dom: the original programming of Bitcoin says that only 21 million
Dom: coins can ever be mined. So therefore once you hit
Dom: that number, that's it, there isn't any more. And this
Dom: mining process, which is sort of how almost all cryptos
Dom: are made these days, is basically to create cryptocurrency. You
Dom: have to get a computer to sort of crunch increasingly
Dom: difficult calculations. And all these computers all around the world
Dom: are all competing to be the first every 10 minutes
Dom: to crunch these calculations. And that sort of forms the
Dom: basis of crypto in the sense that that's what makes
Dom: it valuable in a sense, because it requires a great
Dom: deal of sort of energy and and production to create
Dom: this crypto. And also, while all those computers are crunching
Dom: the numbers, they're also validating this network which sort of
Dom: cross-references and cross-check all the transactions being made every second.
Dom: You know, it's, it's all sort of this big web
Dom: of computers put together. So that's sort of the basis
Dom: upon which cryptocurrencies are formed. And those sort of features
Dom: give us something like Bitcoin, you know, theoretically a lot
Dom: of some attractive attributes in the sense that you can't
Dom: fake it, like you can't fake a Bitcoin transaction because
Dom: all these computers are constantly cross-referencing and checking all the
Dom: transactions at once. And you know, there's a certain limited
Dom: number of them that are hard to produce, etc., etc.
Dom: Hence why you see this digital gold similarity. And then
Dom: you've got the other cap, which is sort of Etherium
Dom: is the most sort of prominent one, which are these
Dom: sort of cryptocurrencies which are programmable. So they have sort
Dom: of like a software layer to them where you can
Dom: put all these sort of features and sort of put
Dom: all these terms and conditions attached to the transactions. And
Dom: people say that, you know, all theoretically in the future
Dom: you could use an a theorem network to completely automate
Dom: the transaction of a house, right? You could just go bang,
Dom: it's all written into a contract, you do the transaction
Dom: and all this sort of conveyancing legal mumbo jumbo is
Dom: all sort of baked into this transaction. So that's sort
Dom: of the other camp of of cryptos, which are less
Dom: about just the singular transfer of value and more about
Dom: the actual sort of programming, you know, future of the
Dom: Internet sort of thing, which which a lot of people
Dom: claim that it will be. So those are sort of
Dom: the two different camps. Obviously, that's a lot of information
Dom: to take in. It's kind of really hard to explain
Dom: crypto succinctly. It's such a bonkers and confusing area, but
Dom: that's about as best as I could do.
Jess: But fascinating. No, that's great. I was listening to an
Jess: interview between Ezra Klein and the founder of Ethereum, which
Jess: was sort of going into some of those other uses.
Jess: And I'm wondering with that sort of software that you
Jess: can build into a theory, is that open source? So
Jess: can anyone like you say on a set up a
Jess: real estate agency and I'm going to use the theory
Jess: of to sort of do the transactions or is it
Jess: within the control of a theory as such that they
Jess: will innovate and come up with the new programmable use?
Dom: No, it's completely decentralized, completely open source, like everything's open
Dom: to everyone. No one controls it, which is another big
Dom: sort of draw of crypto is that in theory this
Dom: is all again, in theory, sometimes this doesn't actually work
Dom: in practice at all. No one can determine how Ethereum
Dom: network runs or anything like that. It's all very sort
Dom: of collective and, you know, done together.
Jess: Okay. But to participate in whatever innovative new sort of
Jess: a fancy thing exists, you might need to have some
Jess: Etherium because that would give it value. Or could you
Jess: use another digital cryptocurrency.
Dom: Well to do anything on sort of like the Ethereum blockchain,
Dom: the network that it runs on. To do anything on that,
Dom: you have to pay a fee. And typically those fees
Dom: are in theory, so you have to have the currency
Dom: in the first place to to be able to sort
Dom: of operate on the network.
Jess: Interesting, because that's where I'm sort of like, well, maybe
Jess: it could arise that there are sort of ecosystems around
Jess: particular cryptocurrencies where you're actually going to need the underlying
Jess: cryptocurrency to participate and therefore there's value in that.
Dom: Yeah, well that's sort of what gives something like a theorem.
Dom: Its value is the fact that if you want to
Dom: participate in the network, you actually have to hold the
Dom: currency itself in order to pay the fees. So that's
Dom: why the sort of, you know, that sort of token
Dom: or that coin as they're called, as value, it's a
Dom: very sort of especially if you come into it from
Dom: sort of a very sort of traditional finance background, there's
Dom: a lot of things that are quite confusing and there's
Dom: a lot of like stuff that. I think it sort
Dom: of benefits from the fact that people don't understand it. Yeah.
Dom: Like it is one of those sort of markets. It's like,
Dom: you know, the depths of the financial system, right? Like
Dom: the fact that no one really knows how the hell
Dom: it works. It sort of works to its advantage in
Dom: the sense that people can just be like, Oh no,
Dom: it's great. It's going to be the future of the Internet,
Dom: It's fine sort of thing, where in reality it might
Dom: not be, but it's so complicated that no one really
Dom: questions it.
Jess: Yeah, I'm sort of like, I don't see a world
Jess: where I have to have Bitcoin to go buy my coffee.
Dom: Yeah, well, that's probably never going to happen.
Jess: I feel like cash is working pretty well for me
Jess: for that. But other worlds that don't exist and we
Jess: can't see the future in which there's fancy online things
Jess: in which would operate off crypto currencies, in which case
Jess: you will need them. And if they're limited, then it
Jess: would make sense to get in early to have some. Yeah.
Jess: So I'm suddenly turning into a crypto. I'd be like, Oh,
Jess: I've got to go get some. But but let's just
Jess: cool down and can you just talk us through what
Jess: I mean, what has happened with crypto pricing? How high
Jess: did it get? It's totally crashed in the last couple
Jess: of months or years. How volatile is it.
Dom: Like extremely volatile. Like over the course of, you know,
Dom: possibly this conversation, you could see the swing of like
Dom: a of a major crypto like Bitcoin over Etherium, you know,
Dom: go up or down by $100. Like that's not uncommon.
Dom: Like it's a massively volatile market. You know, back when
Dom: I was investing in like 2017, it was more volatile.
Dom: Like it was really, really like, you know, all over
Dom: the shop all the time. And I think we it
Dom: hit its peak last year also partially due to COVID
Dom: and a lot of the stimulus that was around a
Dom: lot of people getting into investing and crypto for the
Dom: first time, I think Bitcoin got pretty close to if not,
Dom: it hit 100,000 AUD like it was. Like, really, really high.
Dom: And then since then, it's fallen by like 50% or
Dom: more like it is completely plunged. And that was in
Dom: about November last year. So certain markets have taken a
Dom: real significant downturn.
Jess: Which has really pulled the rug out of one of
Jess: the arguments people sort of thought at a time back
Jess: in the day when sort of interest rates were really
Jess: low and sort of there was sort of this theory
Jess: that central banks can't control the the value of money
Jess: and we need to have this independent thing. It'll be
Jess: a hedge. And, you know, in uncertainty, when all global
Jess: currencies fall apart, we'll have this sort of more secure
Jess: thing and it will be a hedge against times of uncertainty.
Jess: And so, you know, one of the things are going down,
Jess: it would go up or like has it that it's
Jess: some sort of defensive element of your portfolio that might
Jess: outweigh other turbulences turned out to be completely untrue.
Dom: Yeah, well, it just turned out to be complete crap
Dom: because what happened is a little like the, you know,
Dom: the traditional finance people got into crypto as well, and
Dom: then the crypto decided following exactly what traditional finance did
Dom: and people just sort of traded like a tech stock.
Dom: Now like it pretty much car. Like if you look
Dom: at the price of bitcoin, it kind of tracks what
Dom: the Nasdaq does.
Jess: I mean, the thing that gives crypto such bad name
Jess: is all the sort of spruiking and we've seen recently,
Jess: like Kim Kardashian is being fined for being involved in
Jess: sort of spruiking. And I think Matt Damon has an
Jess: ad for a cryptocurrency and some of the advertising is
Jess: around like, you know, yeah, I know you don't understand it,
Jess: but just but anyway.
Dom: Yeah well like don't don't miss out don't be behind
Dom: sort of thing.
Jess: Yeah. The sort of FOMO aspect of it but okay
Jess: so volatility aside and you know spruikers beside what are
Jess: some of the reasons why you might want crypto in
Jess: your portfolio.
Dom: Well I think like the number one reason and like
Dom: I think a lot of people sort of recognise this
Dom: with crypto is the fact that it's can have a
Dom: massive upside, right? Like you know, look at what will
Dom: happen to me in 2017. Right. That's insane. Typically you're
Dom: never going to see like a massive increase in value
Dom: over the course of a year, as you know, we
Dom: did back then. And it's not uncommon that, you know,
Dom: for certain cryptos, you could see them rise, you know,
Dom: 100 or 200% over the course of a year like
Dom: that typically doesn't happen for equities. Right. Like, that's pretty rare.
Dom: So obviously, that's the number one upside and why people
Dom: have a lot of it or want to think that
Dom: they should have some in their portfolio is because of
Dom: the of the potential upside. And then I suppose on
Dom: top of that, you got diversification like it is. You know,
Dom: it is distinctly different to equities and commodities and things
Dom: like that, like it is a truly sort of unique
Dom: asset class in the way that it functions and all
Dom: that sort of stuff. And also, I guess as we
Dom: sort of mentioned earlier, like people did view it as
Dom: a bit of a hedge to, you know, traditional markets,
Dom: but that's not really true anymore. So that's sort of
Dom: that can be a kind of be a reason why
Dom: you might put it in your portfolio. And I suppose
Dom: maybe the last reason would just be that there are
Dom: some people who out there who think it is going
Dom: to be the next version of the Internet. I don't
Dom: personally agree. I don't think it will be the next
Dom: version of the Internet, but there is sort of like
Dom: a decent sized camp that think that things like Etherium
Dom: and all that sort of stuff is going to be
Dom: sort of the basis upon what the next iteration of,
Dom: you know, the World Wide Web will be. It's this
Dom: sort of term web3, which gets bandied around a lot
Dom: without much meaning. And, you know, I think that that's
Dom: sort of going to be the next frontier. So, I mean,
Dom: if you if you sort of buy into that and
Dom: you think that these people might have a bit of
Dom: a point, then, you know, putting some in your portfolio
Dom: obviously kind of makes sense because you could be at
Dom: the forefront of a next of the next big thing.
Dom: But that's obviously up to you to decide, as with
Dom: every investment.
Jess: Of course, and it seems like on the risk spectrum,
Jess: like of investments, it's way out there on the frontier
Jess: of something that is high risk. Yes. Compared to shares
Jess: compared to property, you know, work out. You know, there
Jess: are other places to put your money, essentially. And if
Jess: you if you do sort of park some money there,
Jess: I think it probably won't to be money that you
Jess: didn't want back in in a hurry.
Dom: Yes. And definitely not one for sort of anyone who's
Dom: sort of environmentally conscious in terms of their investments, because
Dom: crypto as on the whole is really bad for the
Dom: environment like the Bitcoin network does, I think has a
Dom: carbon footprint, annual carbon footprint equal to that of Greece. Well,
Dom: as in the country Greece. So that just gives you
Dom: an idea it is not good for the environment and you'd.
Jess: Have to think that investments that are not good for
Jess: the environment are sort of not going to produce value
Jess: over time. While like stocks, the companies that are heavily
Jess: have those imposing those externalities on society are not going
Jess: to do so well. Well, that's my opinion anyway. Yeah. So. Alright,
Jess: well let's wrap it up. Do we need to buy
Jess: crypto in our portfolio? What do you reckon?
Dom: Well, I don't know, Jess. I think you're the one
Dom: to ask the other sort of the passive that was
Dom: sort of, I mean I worry about it after this chat.
Dom: How do you, how do you feel about putting Bitcoin
Dom: into your book?
Jess: Look, I struggle I still struggle to see as an
Jess: asset class what it is because I know. Property, you
Jess: get rental returns and capital appreciation. You know, if you
Jess: don't get the good upside to the price, you're at
Jess: least getting some rent shares the same. You're owning an
Jess: actual company and they're going to distribute some of the
Jess: profits to you. You know, bonds, they're going the government's
Jess: going to pay you a fixed rate on that. What's
Jess: the income generating potential of of crypto? I don't think
Jess: there is or not one that I can imagine just yet.
Jess: You're sort of it's it's sort of like a commodity,
Jess: as you say, or like gold and you really taking
Jess: a bet on, you know, how the asset valuation will go.
Jess: I don't quite understand it, but I'm also I'm just like,
Jess: perhaps we can conclude that I am crypto curious because,
Jess: you know, there are relatively intelligent people who seem to
Jess: be very deep in this ecosphere. And I'm aware, you know,
Jess: sometimes you can't see what the future is, but I
Jess: don't know in a world if they're inventing Web3, I
Jess: still don't know what that is, but it sounds pretty good.
Jess: Maybe I'll have a happy life anyway. I'll just enjoy
Jess: being a consumer on whatever the platform is. But am
Jess: I going to need some crypto to participate? I don't know.
Jess: I'll probably be dead by then, so I'm not rushing
Jess: out to to get crypto. And I I'm not sort
Jess: of saying that anyone should do what I do or
Jess: whatever and get your own advice, but I sort of
Jess: don't see it as something that's going to be necessary
Jess: for my life.
Dom: Yes. I mean, I, I mean, as I sort of said,
Dom: I think I've done my dash when it comes to crypto.
Dom: I'm pretty happy with what happened. And these days, I
Dom: think like firstly, do research and do more research than
Dom: you would for any other investment. Like if you're going
Dom: to look at crypto, you need to sit down and
Dom: you need to really read everything, get a really balanced
Dom: perspective because there's just so much sort of nonsense out
Dom: there that people push. So do a lot of research.
Dom: And then if you really think you want to invest
Dom: like my sort of, you know, again, not providing any
Dom: financial advice, but I think just common sense would dictate
Dom: that the things that you would want to look at
Dom: would be things like Bitcoin and theory and like the
Dom: big ones. They're sort of been around for the longest.
Dom: They relatively stable. You know, those would be the sort
Dom: of the obvious choices if I were to make a choice.
Jess: Excellent. Well, we'll expect you to be well dressed and
Jess: out of the house now that you're no longer a
Jess: crypto investor, which is not to denigrate anyone who is
Jess: making some. Maybe I might be stereotyping there. Alright.
Dom: And now we've got our listener question of the week,
Dom: as we always do, and thank you for everyone who's
Dom: been sending them in. We've got a inbox that is
Dom: nice and full of questions but always keen to hear more,
Dom: so please do keep on sending them. And this one
Dom: is from Kirsten, who says that she has a large
Dom: mortgage and she has been investing extra cash into an
Dom: ETF and not paying extra off her mortgage. She also
Dom: says that she has a three month emergency fund. However,
Dom: she's worried that she'll come off her 1.84% fixed interest
Dom: rate was the end of next year and her repayments
Dom: are going to go through the roof. So she's asking
Dom: should she pause her investing now and shovel all of
Dom: that extra cash into her mortgage between now and the
Dom: fixed rate comes off because she's trying to not be
Dom: too terrified about this fixed rate cliff, which is approaching
Dom: for her and many other borrowers. And Jess, what's your
Dom: thoughts on this?
Jess: Yeah, Kirsten, you're speaking to me because this is pretty
Jess: much exactly the situation that I'm in. Even that rate
Jess: is my my mortgage rate, and it rolls off in
Jess: the middle of next year. And I'm currently, you know,
Jess: because I'm a bit of a budget her I do
Jess: know I'm generating cash surpluses every month and I'm like
Jess: well what do I do with that given that I
Jess: know I'm going to hit this cliff where I'll be
Jess: refinancing to sort of maybe a 4.55% interest rate that's
Jess: going to eat into my buffer a lot. I am
Jess: confident that I can still when that happens, I'll be
Jess: able to pay that. So with the surpluses that I'm
Jess: generating now, I've got to decide do a will, do
Jess: I start trying to throw it at the mortgage or
Jess: do I keep investing? I you know, the main thing is,
Jess: is when you hit that cliff, are you going to
Jess: have the cash flow to be able to pay your mortgage?
Jess: And if you're not, you might want to be squirreling
Jess: away some cash because you're going to need into your
Jess: cash savings. The focus should really be on making sure
Jess: stress testing yourself. Are you going to have the cash
Jess: flow to meet your mortgage repayments when it goes up?
Jess: And if you are and I'm fairly confident that I am,
Jess: I am still continuing to invest because, you know, you're
Jess: making that assessment of do I think the long term
Jess: returns of of investing are going to be better than
Jess: paying down my mortgage? You know, and I can't see
Jess: the future, but I do like to still be, you know,
Jess: investing some money and getting some sort of ticket on
Jess: whatever returns the share market will do. Whilst, you know,
Jess: the cost of my mortgage is really low. So I
Jess: think it's going to to change when I do because
Jess: I'm just not going to have a cash surplus anymore.
Jess: Basically with interest rates going up, my repayments are already
Jess: going to be about $1,000 more per month. All right.
Jess: Pretty much my monthly cash surplus that I've. In investing,
Jess: so I won't have a choice. My only thing for
Jess: Kirsten is if she. If she's. She's trying not to
Jess: be terrified. But if she is feeling a little bit uncomfortable,
Jess: maybe that three month emergency fund might need to be
Jess: a little bit bigger. I've got a six month basic
Jess: living expense emergency cash buffer, so I feel pretty confident
Jess: in that. And so maybe you might just feel a
Jess: little bit more comfortable sleep at night if you had
Jess: a little bit more cash, you know, sitting in the
Jess: in the offset rather than investing more. But then, you know,
Jess: shares are down. It's you know, it's hard to not
Jess: want to be trying to get some buying opportunities there.
Jess: So it's hard. But my main thing is get a
Jess: really laser like focus on your expenses and convince yourself
Jess: that you will be able to afford your stress, test
Jess: your finances to make sure you can afford the repayments
Jess: when when they go up. And then, you know, either way,
Jess: it sort of depends on how how you're feeling. If
Jess: you're getting pretty stressed about it, maybe not locking all
Jess: your money up in the share market or again, pocket
Jess: analyst doors, why not do a bit of a bit
Jess: more squirreling, a bit more investing?
Dom: I think it's it's good that that person's got that
Dom: three month emergency fund in the first place. Right. Like
Dom: that's a good starting point, especially when you worried about
Dom: interest rates going up because like a lot of people
Dom: be worried about interest rates going up and they wouldn't
Dom: have that sort of emergency fund. So I think you're
Dom: in a good spot. Start with and then it's just
Dom: about how you manage it from there on out.
Jess: Yeah.
Dom: And to bring us home, it's just this budget tip
Dom: of the week.
Jess: So my tip this week is just to make people
Jess: aware of something called a no interest loan scheme. So
Jess: this is for people who are earning under 70,000 or
Jess: who have sort of access to a health care or
Jess: pension card. So it's at that lower end. If you
Jess: hit a massive expense like the washing machine breaks down,
Jess: the car breaks down, there's actually an availability to you
Jess: to get a no interest loan of up to $5,000
Jess: for cars, up to $2,000 for appliances or medical bills.
Jess: It's run by NAB Bank in conjunction with the Good
Jess: Shepherd Organisation and I'll give you the phone number. But
Jess: instead of going to a payday lender, putting it on
Jess: the credit card with 20% interest or whatever it is,
Jess: you can actually borrow the $2,000 and pay it back
Jess: in small chunks over time with absolutely no interest applied.
Jess: So if you're really in an emergency type situation, you
Jess: don't have that emergency savings buffer. This is one to
Jess: to look out for and I'll just give the number.
Jess: You can call them the Good Shepherds No interest loan
Jess: team on 13 6457 or just Google no interest loans
Jess: and Good Shepherd and find out more information about that.
Dom: Thanks everyone for listening again this week. I hope we
Dom: managed to demystify the world of crypto a little bit
Dom: for you. If you've left it just as confused as
Dom: you are. I'm sorry we did our best.
Jess: And I do tend to think that the best piece
Jess: of financial wisdom is not to invest in things you
Jess: don't understand properly. Absolutely more research to do. If we've
Jess: tempted you in some way.
Dom: We'll be back again next week, as usual. And thanks
Dom: for listening.
Jess: Thanks for listening. This episode of It All Adds Up
Jess: was produced by Chee Wong. The information discussed is general
Jess: in nature and does not take into account your personal
Jess: financial situation, goals or objectives. You should always do your
Jess: own research or get professional advice before making any major
Jess: financial decisions. If you like today's episode, hit follow in
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