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S1: Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,

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S1: a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and

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S1: Mel Cambrai. How are you guys going?

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S2: I'm well. How are you?

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S3: It's good to have you. We are all in the

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S3: same room for once, so that's very fun.

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S1: It's very nice to be here in the same room.

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S1: Before we get into the guts of today's entry, see

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S1: what I did there.

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S3: That's why he's the host.

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S1: Thank you. A little bit of housekeeping, a little bit

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S1: of housekeeping. So we haven't done this before, but there

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S1: are a couple of reviews of this show on Apple

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S1: Podcasts that we've gotten in the last week that I

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S1: think are worth mentioning for a couple of reasons. We've

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S1: got a five star review from someone called Fan. Thank

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S1: you for the five stars. They said Love the Drop.

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S1: Interesting discussion on a broad range of arts and culture

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S1: would be great if it was more than once a week. Agreed.

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S1: Keep the book reviews.

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S4: Oh.

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S3: That's amazing. Thank you. Okay, well.

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S1: See you on that for a second. Sit on that

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S1: for a second. I just got a four star review.

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S1: Someone called Nick's name. Someone called.

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S2: Kelly.

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S1: Memory would give you five stars, but not enough books.

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S1: A bit of a theme here.

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S3: They've come out the male brigade. They've come out in

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S3: a show of support after what happened on last week's pod,

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S3: and I thank them.

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S1: I'm genuinely shocked that after your you implored our listeners

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S1: to deliver reviews that specifically said, if you want more

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S1: book content, please sign your book. And people.

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S3: Did. This is people power at its best guys keep

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S3: leaving those reviews five star shout out to me and

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S3: we'll turn this around.

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S2: The major studios go to like Rotten tomatoes and like

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S2: game the review system this is likely that this.

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S1: Is you with various VPNs or Russian bots.

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S3: Yeah. Just Mum. Thanks Mum. Yeah.

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S1: I mean it's, you know, it's nice but I'd say

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S1: to the person next name who gave us false, you

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S1: could have just given us five stars to punish us. Yeah. Yeah.

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S1: Why are we being punished?

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S3: I mean we could change that around to get five stars.

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S3: Should we have more book content on the show?

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S2: There's going to be two book podcasts a week from

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S2: now Sold.

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S1: There's going to be some book references on today's episode, though.

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S1: So if you are interested in books.

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S2: I personally.

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S1: And the other thing I wanted to mention is so

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S1: in last week's episode, we did talk about books coming up,

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S1: we talk about TV shows coming up in one of

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S1: the ones that you mentioned, Thomas, that you said I

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S1: would be really excited to get around was an Apple

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S1: TV Plus show called The Changeling, starring Lakeith Stanfield. I

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S1: have seen the first episode of that show. That's all

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S1: that's out right now. Your spot on the show is amazing.

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S1: It is based on a book. Mel Love that. It

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S1: is like kind of a dark, supernatural horror drama about

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S1: a couple and their life kind of falling apart. But

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S1: it's very mysterious. You don't really know what's going on.

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S1: There's a witchy stuff happening. Yeah, I don't really I

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S1: really can't think of another show like this. It's so interesting.

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S2: It's so hard to say like what genre it is.

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S2: And it's also really scary. It's really. It's like I

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S2: there's like, maybe like 2 or 3 good, like, jump

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S2: scares in episode. Yeah. So it's nice that that's kind

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S2: of popped up in the landscape when there's not a

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S2: great deal on.

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S1: Yeah. So I wanted to start by roasting Mel for

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S1: these fake reviews and by acknowledging Thomas's great recommendations.

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S3: I don't think you want to roast me now. I've

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S3: clearly got a fan base here too.

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S1: Yeah, I don't want to turn this into a thing

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S1: where we all start appealing to our respective fan bases

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S1: to get them to.

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S2: I worry about who mine is.

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S1: Other than John Mayer Brigade. Yeah. Okay. So there's two

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S1: things on this episode that we're going to be discussing.

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S1: The bulk of the pod will be dedicated to pop

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S1: sensation Olivia Rodrigo's second album, Guts, released this week, and

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S1: we'll be having a conversation around the reaction to the album,

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S1: the drama surrounding it and its lead up and what

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S1: I guess the album itself and the way the music

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S1: community is responding to it tells us a bit about

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S1: the state of pop music right now. Then we're going

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S1: to cover some of the insane celebrity relationship drama that

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S1: seems to be all over the timeline and what that

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S1: tells us about the state of humanity and our own

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S1: brains in this silly season. So we previewed Gut's Olivia's

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S1: second album last week. It's the follow up to the

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S1: incredibly popular and very critically well-received debut album, Surely Sour,

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S1: that had big hits like Driver's License, Deja Vu and

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S1: Good for You. We got a first flavor of guts

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S1: a few weeks ago with the single vampire went number

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S1: one right around.

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UU: The world are used to think I was smart but

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UU: you may. You look so naive. Have you sold this album?

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S1: To me, it feels more like an iteration. On what

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S1: she was trying to do with Sour rather than a

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S1: big radical departure. It's still very like pop, rock, pop, punk, heavy.

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S1: Similar sorts of themes around teenage heartbreak. I guess that

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S1: makes sense because she was 18 and she's 20 now.

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S1: It's not been like this huge period of her life

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S1: where lots of things have happened except she's gotten really famous,

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S1: which she talks about. She's talking about not feeling comfortable

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S1: in your skin. Very relatable stuff for teenagers and young people.

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S1: There's a lot of ballads on there. Remind me a

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S1: bit of Lorde. It's a pretty fun album, I think.

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S1: I think because it does remind me of that 2000

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S1: era of pop punk that was really dominant and then

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S1: just disappeared really, until now. How do you guys feel

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S1: about guts?

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S3: I agree with you. I feel like Sour was really

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S3: good with Good for you and deja vu and one

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S3: step forward, three steps back. And I think she took

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S3: all the good parts of sour and has made them

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S3: great on guts. I think the ballads have more bites,

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S3: the songs are more interesting, and I disagree a bit.

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S3: I reckon it's Move. She's moved on a bit from

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S3: Pure heartbreak, although there is a lot of that in

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S3: in guts to look at actual bigger issues of feminism

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S3: and celebrity and power dynamics, particularly in a lot of

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S3: those ballads. I think she's doing something bigger beyond the

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S3: self in this one. And then.

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S5: You got me thinking, two.

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UU: Plus two equals five. Alive because of rain. Don't pour in,

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UU: sun don't shine. Change you is possible. Although was never logical.

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S1: And yeah, how much of it is heartbreak also depends

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S1: on how many theories you subscribe to about what some

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S1: of these songs are about, which we will get into.

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S1: But how about you, Thomas? How you feel about this one?

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S2: Yeah, good. I it makes me feel like terrifyingly in

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S2: touch with my inner teenage girl, which I did not know.

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S2: I don't want laying there dormant. Yeah, but there she is. Yeah.

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S2: I really like it. Like it's hard with these albums

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S2: like on first listen because you guys have been kind

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S2: of digging it up and I came a bit later

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S2: to it on first Listen. I was immediately like, okay,

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S2: I liked all the pop punk like anthems, and it

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S2: wasn't as much about the ballads. I think it's really funny,

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S2: which I think is really important in like a modern

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S2: pop album because you basically want someone to listen to

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S2: the album and remember like maybe 6 or 7 lyrics,

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S2: which they will then like put as an Instagram caption

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S2: and like straight away the first listen, I had like

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S2: five lines. I was like, That's really funny. So I

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S2: thought like, yeah, I just thought it was like really clever,

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S2: really smart.

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UU: Sexy and. I'm grateful all the time. And I'm pretty

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UU: when I cry.

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S2: It was so relatable and I'm like a 34 year

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S2: old man. So again, I don't know what that says

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S2: about me, but I do think that that appears to

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S2: be part of the appeal of Olivia Rodrigo is that

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S2: she's kind of like got that same relatability as Taylor,

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S2: which we'll get to. But yeah, I just thought it was, like,

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S2: really edgy and fun and smart.

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S3: Is it like when she sings about pretty not being

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S3: pretty enough and Exactly. The pressures about being a teenage

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S3: girl doesn't.

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S1: Really feel good on your bones.

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S2: I thought specifically my fair weather friends like YouTube. So, yeah,

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S2: that was that was kind of, I think Olivia and I,

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S2: you know, same vibe.

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S3: I wish so much this album existed when I was

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S3: a teen girl. Like, I really do think you know

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S3: how in girls Hannah Horvath is like, Oh, I want

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S3: to be the voice of a generation. I actually think

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S3: she's kind of achieving it on an album like this.

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S1: Yeah, I do really think she's trying to, like, signify

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S1: that this is an album for everyone of her generation.

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S1: The way that some of the songs are titled is

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S1: so clearly aimed at appealing to like teenagers between the

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S1: ages of like 14 to 19 or even a little

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S1: bit older. Thomas You I think you've sort of answered

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S1: a little bit. The next question I was going to

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S1: ask you guys is the pop music landscape, the music

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S1: landscape at the moment is so congested and contested. We've

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S1: talked about how country music is dominating the charts. Hip

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S1: hop is is big. It's not quite as big as

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S1: it was, but it's still this big force that is

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S1: taking tension away from the pop music that we kind

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S1: of grew up with and was the mainstay of the

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S1: charts for so long. Why then has Olivia been able

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S1: to sort of crack through and become ubiquitous in this way? Like,

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S1: is it this combination of humor and relatability? Is it

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S1: something about how she sounds? Is it something about the production?

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S1: Is it a combination of those things like my own

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S1: kind of $0.02, I guess. Is that why she is

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S1: appealing to us is partly because music about heartbreak is relatable,

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S1: no matter how old you are. But also there are

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S1: references to bands, to groups like Perumal and Eva Levine

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S1: that we think about where younger people might not even

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S1: know what they're referencing. We get it. We love it.

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S1: It makes us feel good about ourselves. But for the

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S1: next generation, for the for the Gen Z's that Olivia

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S1: Rodrigo was a part of, they're just getting music that

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S1: feels like raw on authentic to them. That's kind of

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S1: my theory, my grand unified theory on how Olivia is

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S1: basically throwing scraps to every demographic. But is it something

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S1: else going on?

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S3: I always want to call her like post pop in

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S3: a way, because I think she is so self referential

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S3: about being a pop star and is almost self parodying

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S3: the idea of the pop star in this. And I

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S3: think that's what's really resonating with people as well as

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S3: what you said. Like I'd put her in the kind

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S3: of league of do you remember Gail with the Abcdef

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S3: you song Leia Kate, maybe even Billie Eilish. Like these

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S3: are pop stars who are conscious of what the phrase

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S3: pop star means, and they're deliberately playing with it and

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S3: undercutting it and leaning into certain elements of it. And

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S3: so I think that that is a big part of

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S3: why she's cutting through, because I don't think she takes

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S3: herself in her songs as seriously as, say, someone like

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S3: Taylor might. And I think she's part of a new

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S3: younger generation that is owning pop them in a different way.

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S1: That's really interesting, not pure irony, but there's a self

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S1: knowingness there that is different to the earnestness of someone

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00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:29,190
S1: like Taylor.

227
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,060
S2: Yeah, I think that kind of makes sense. And also

228
00:10:31,059 --> 00:10:35,650
S2: I do think like, you know, as a like culture,

229
00:10:35,650 --> 00:10:38,530
S2: we every so often we just like deign someone the

230
00:10:38,530 --> 00:10:42,190
S2: new like pop culture, like Face and the new star

231
00:10:42,190 --> 00:10:44,110
S2: of Pop. And we've had like, obviously like Taylor and

232
00:10:44,110 --> 00:10:47,620
S2: then like different iterations like Billie Eilish and Lorde and

233
00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:50,560
S2: every so often and like Ariana. And I think like,

234
00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:53,829
S2: it's probably worth discussing the fact that she had this

235
00:10:53,830 --> 00:10:55,780
S2: amazing platform of like a Disney child star.

236
00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:56,290
S1: Totally, which.

237
00:10:56,410 --> 00:10:57,940
S2: Plays into it. And so I'm not saying like, I

238
00:10:57,940 --> 00:11:00,640
S2: think I think Olivia Rodrigo is super talented and a

239
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,040
S2: great songwriter. I also think she's surrounded by an amazing

240
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,150
S2: production team. But I just think there probably are like

241
00:11:07,270 --> 00:11:09,100
S2: maybe 20 other people that could be in this exact

242
00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:12,219
S2: same position. And it's just like a lot of factors

243
00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:14,740
S2: probably went right for her and having that Disney platform

244
00:11:14,740 --> 00:11:16,510
S2: like and I think what you said about the scraps

245
00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:18,610
S2: is really true, but that particular audience as well, it's

246
00:11:18,610 --> 00:11:19,900
S2: like she's got an in-built people that are going to

247
00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,270
S2: listen to whatever her first single is. And then that

248
00:11:22,270 --> 00:11:25,089
S2: kind of like really puts you in good stead. What's up?

249
00:11:25,090 --> 00:11:27,280
S2: I'm Olivia Rodrigo from Buzzard Park.

250
00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:29,620
S6: And you're watching Disney Channel.

251
00:11:29,950 --> 00:11:31,600
S1: It's a really good point, and I think we probably

252
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,550
S1: at this stage don't need to do a full like,

253
00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:37,390
S1: potted history of Olivia. But those Disney shows were really big,

254
00:11:37,390 --> 00:11:40,270
S1: I think probably not for our generation, but for people.

255
00:11:40,270 --> 00:11:42,599
S1: The generation below. She she's on a show called Bizarre

256
00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:46,390
S1: and one of my favorite tidal shows of history, High

257
00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:50,710
S1: School Musical, Colon, the Musical Colon, the series which she

258
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:52,450
S1: was a star of. And I think she only left

259
00:11:52,450 --> 00:11:55,239
S1: that show to start pursuing her musical career. And that

260
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,270
S1: first big track was driver's license. So it's like big input.

261
00:11:58,270 --> 00:12:02,079
S1: Audience First single is a genuinely big hit, followed up

262
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,450
S1: with more great hits like Deja Vu and Good For

263
00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:06,760
S1: You and a really good album. It's like the audience

264
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,710
S1: was there and all the pieces of the puzzle fell

265
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:09,040
S1: into play.

266
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,170
S3: But what was actually really smart of her was because

267
00:12:11,170 --> 00:12:14,590
S3: we have seen Disney's kind of how Disney promotes pop star.

268
00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:18,880
S3: Selena Gomez. Miley Cyrus. Britney Spears. What's really interesting is

269
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,220
S3: that she got out of her Disney contract to take

270
00:12:21,220 --> 00:12:24,460
S3: her album elsewhere. She didn't produce the album through Disney,

271
00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:27,010
S3: which I think has given her the freedom earlier on

272
00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:28,780
S3: than some of these other pop stars to lose the

273
00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:32,180
S3: kind of Disney niceness or the kind of Disney like.

274
00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:35,020
S3: I think that's a pretty interesting move that she was like, No,

275
00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:37,300
S3: I don't want to be anchored down to the Disney brand.

276
00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:39,250
S3: I'm going to be able to have more freedom taking

277
00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:39,910
S3: it elsewhere.

278
00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:41,870
S2: But yeah, it is interesting because she was obviously like

279
00:12:41,890 --> 00:12:45,040
S2: pretty famous in America when like, like famous enough with

280
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,890
S2: a certain audience when driver's license came out where someone

281
00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:49,900
S2: like Lourdes from a fucking tiny town in New Zealand

282
00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:51,410
S2: becomes one of the biggest pop stars in the world.

283
00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:52,559
S2: That's pretty crazy.

284
00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:54,880
S1: It's really crazy. It's really crazy. I mean, we'll talk

285
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,100
S1: about Lorde because I do feel a lot of Lorde

286
00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:01,179
S1: on this record, particularly those ballads. But I mentioned at

287
00:13:01,179 --> 00:13:04,150
S1: the start that like Vampire, the first single I really

288
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:07,000
S1: vibed with that reminded me a lot of Billie Eilish.

289
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,010
S1: I think like kind of those kind of big tonal

290
00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:11,260
S1: switches and there's a lot of these tracks. My favorite

291
00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:13,540
S1: tracks on this album are the ones where there are

292
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:16,930
S1: these big like mood shifts and sonic shifts. It's like

293
00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:19,060
S1: a pop punky kind of rage bit, and then you

294
00:13:19,059 --> 00:13:22,480
S1: sort of break entirely. And it's a really pared back,

295
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,890
S1: kind of almost romantic, sad ballad from her. I want

296
00:13:26,890 --> 00:13:29,050
S1: to know what you guys think of the standout tracks

297
00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:33,790
S1: and maybe what particular vibe or gear of Olivia works

298
00:13:33,790 --> 00:13:35,430
S1: best for you on this album?

299
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,150
S2: Yeah, well, I think it is. I mean, I guess

300
00:13:37,150 --> 00:13:39,000
S2: like the common easy take is that it is like

301
00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:40,990
S2: it feels like a 5050 split. This album, you've got

302
00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:43,750
S2: like the pop punk kind of like anthems and like

303
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:45,760
S2: this like rocker vibe. And then you've got like the

304
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,280
S2: soul searching ballads and like, we kind of like ping

305
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,860
S2: pong between the two of them. I still I think

306
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:53,230
S2: I like it's actually an album where it's a pretty

307
00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:55,150
S2: skip free for me. Like I don't feel the need.

308
00:13:55,179 --> 00:13:57,400
S1: It's pretty short. Also, it's only 39 minutes. Yeah.

309
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,560
S2: So I don't find myself skipping any tracks. I do

310
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,050
S2: think that the anthems are like the strongest songs. I

311
00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:04,870
S2: think that's Olivia at her best. It's like they're funny,

312
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:07,660
S2: they're really catchy and the vibe is good. I just

313
00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:10,720
S2: think some of the ballads can like become a little

314
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,470
S2: bit too like Ballad, which I know, you know, it

315
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:16,540
S2: just feels like, okay, we're that this part of the

316
00:14:16,540 --> 00:14:18,400
S2: album where she feels like she has to do this

317
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,190
S2: for me. My I mean I think all American bitch

318
00:14:21,190 --> 00:14:24,880
S2: and getting back to the biggest standouts also I love

319
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,920
S2: like punctuation in a track name, so I'm all for

320
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,140
S2: the exclamation mark. But I also think my favorite track

321
00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:30,880
S2: on the album is probably Making The Bed, which is

322
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,050
S2: actually more of a ballad, but it does that like

323
00:14:33,070 --> 00:14:35,800
S2: kind of tonal shift where it starts out one way

324
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,620
S2: and ends up in a different place, which I loved.

325
00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:40,420
S1: This generation's Bohemian Rhapsody. Exactly. Yes.

326
00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:42,220
S2: That's what that's what they're calling it. And then that

327
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:43,960
S2: is where, like I mentioned before, that's one of my

328
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,600
S2: favorite lyrics. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to

329
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,070
S2: be where I am getting drunk at a club with

330
00:14:48,070 --> 00:14:49,150
S2: my fairweather friends.

331
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,810
UU: Sometimes I feel like I don't want to be where I.

332
00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:59,730
UU: My fear with friends push away. People who know me the.

333
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:01,950
UU: But it's me.

334
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,920
S2: I'm just like, Yeah, I feel that sometimes, you know,

335
00:15:06,930 --> 00:15:08,520
S2: and out and you look at these people and you're like,

336
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:08,880
S2: Who the.

337
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:09,470
S1: Fuck are you?

338
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:10,350
S2: Basically, I don't know.

339
00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:11,790
S3: Who you're kicking it with, but.

340
00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:12,900
S2: Fair weather friends.

341
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,260
S1: I feel like that's a very reminiscent of Drake, that lyric.

342
00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:17,550
S1: It is. Drake really has that vibe. It's like I

343
00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:19,320
S1: look up and I'm like, Who the hell are you guys?

344
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:21,090
S2: Yeah, Drake loves to, like, take you into the club,

345
00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:22,200
S2: and this is what I'm thinking.

346
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,000
S3: Also love. Like, she's not old enough to be in

347
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,470
S3: the club. Yeah. Can't even drink it. Yeah, legally crazy.

348
00:15:27,510 --> 00:15:29,700
S1: But sometimes I think that, right? Like, the way, you know,

349
00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:33,260
S1: she is the the only songwriter on this album Co

350
00:15:33,270 --> 00:15:37,080
S1: credited with the producer Dan Dan Negro and it I

351
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,210
S1: mean like you know he does the production mind standing

352
00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:42,330
S1: and she does most of the lyrical songwriting and sometimes

353
00:15:42,330 --> 00:15:44,700
S1: I'm like, man you're 20 years old. Like how have

354
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,280
S1: you what, how have you lived this much and how

355
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,900
S1: have you done? It's so weird for a guy in

356
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:50,670
S1: his early 30s to be talking about this way, but

357
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:53,370
S1: it is true. Like the music doesn't just seem like

358
00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:57,000
S1: it's based on what our cliched understanding or maybe our

359
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,100
S1: data understanding of what teenagers get up to. It feels

360
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:01,080
S1: very like mature.

361
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,820
S3: Yeah, agree. I also think of that when I listen

362
00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:05,220
S3: to Kid Leroy's lyrics as well. I'm like, You're very

363
00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:08,609
S3: young to be having these experiences. Roy Once a.

364
00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:09,570
S2: Podcast, I think.

365
00:16:09,630 --> 00:16:13,650
S3: Yeah. Pop star about generational. Oh no. Yeah.

366
00:16:13,770 --> 00:16:17,370
S1: Bohemian Rhapsody. What are your favorite tracks?

367
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,710
S3: I agree with you. I like when she's kind of

368
00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:24,090
S3: confessional and confrontational in the kind of poppy, bratty way

369
00:16:24,090 --> 00:16:26,610
S3: when she does that speak singing thing, which is very

370
00:16:26,610 --> 00:16:28,500
S3: throwback to the early 2000.

371
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:30,510
S2: Love Kesha vibes like on a bad idea right? She's

372
00:16:30,510 --> 00:16:31,470
S2: like talking like.

373
00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:35,070
S3: Like an Alanis Morissette That kind of anger getting back

374
00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:38,030
S3: is probably my favorite one. He had an ego.

375
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,780
S5: And a temper. And I'm wondering, I study six.

376
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:44,720
UU: Foot two and I'm like, Dude. Much fun. And he

377
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,970
UU: had such weird friends and he would take us out

378
00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:47,600
UU: to parties.

379
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,120
S3: And then I think it's very funny. I think it

380
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,760
S3: kind of sums up those big swings of emotion that

381
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,640
S3: you have when you're a teenager and still feel things. Um,

382
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:59,810
S3: the lyrics, the lyrics. One of keys car. I want

383
00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:01,730
S3: to make you lunch. Like the kind of ups and

384
00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:04,580
S3: downs of it all. It's just a real banger. But

385
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:06,650
S3: I will say, the more I listen to those ballads,

386
00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:08,690
S3: at first, when I first listened to it through, I

387
00:17:08,690 --> 00:17:10,960
S3: was like, It feels a bit uneven. Like we're up

388
00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:13,970
S3: or down, we're down. But then the ballads I feel now,

389
00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:17,990
S3: they really set off those anthems and also the ballads

390
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:20,420
S3: where she's kind of exploring bigger issues like that song,

391
00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:24,320
S3: Teenage Dream is pretty intense. It's about like a fear

392
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,290
S3: that at 20, that's why the industry likes her because

393
00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:29,960
S3: of her youth and that she doesn't really know what

394
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,640
S3: she's going to do in the future because that's.

395
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,729
S1: Also like a pretty obvious nod to Katy Perry reference

396
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,830
S1: in that it's like she's seen these people come before

397
00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:38,450
S1: her like a decade or a decade and a half

398
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:41,180
S1: earlier and is like, where are they now? Like they're

399
00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:44,930
S1: playing random gigs in Australia that like the Cricket World

400
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:47,419
S1: Cup or whatever, Like that's Katy Perry's biggest gig in

401
00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:48,020
S1: this country.

402
00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:49,399
S2: But then she was that Katy Perry was a mentor

403
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,800
S2: on this album. Yeah. So she like, yeah, she worked

404
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,870
S2: with her and like it's obviously mentioned, it's a really

405
00:17:53,869 --> 00:17:56,450
S2: good Rolling Stone profile on Olivia Rodrigo, which is worth

406
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:58,820
S2: checking out. But yeah, like Katy Perry was a mentor

407
00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:00,650
S2: and they, I think they asked Katy Perry about the

408
00:18:00,650 --> 00:18:02,540
S2: song title and she's like, No, I'm cool with it. Like, yeah,

409
00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:04,250
S2: it's good to see it kind of go through the years.

410
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:06,020
S2: But I feel like Katy Perry would be a really

411
00:18:06,020 --> 00:18:08,419
S2: good mentor if I needed a mentor. I probably do

412
00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:09,080
S2: need a mentor.

413
00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:09,580
S7: Like.

414
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:10,970
S3: Well, that's why we're here.

415
00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:13,460
S2: I would. You guys would. Neither of you would be young.

416
00:18:13,460 --> 00:18:16,010
S2: Perry one I would choose Katy Perry. I feel like

417
00:18:16,010 --> 00:18:16,760
S2: she'd be pretty cool.

418
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:17,300
S3: As your life.

419
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,040
S1: Mentor, what do you think Katy Perry would have to

420
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:19,700
S1: offer you?

421
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,619
S2: I just think, well, she went out with John Mayer.

422
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:23,870
S2: I think that's my end goal.

423
00:18:23,869 --> 00:18:26,090
S1: So to go with John Mayer. Yeah.

424
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:28,760
S2: No, but I think she seems like really fun but

425
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:29,840
S2: kind of sensible, too.

426
00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:32,370
S1: I agree. And I think the mentoring like, you know,

427
00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:35,929
S1: it's the reference to Katy Perry's teenage dream. But I

428
00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:38,570
S1: think Katy Perry as a pop star who's gone through

429
00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:40,940
S1: the highs and lows, I think would be imparting some

430
00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:43,760
S1: of that onto Olivia being like they love, they love you,

431
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,590
S1: then they hate you and then they'll love you again

432
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:46,690
S1: and they hate you again. Yeah, you're hot.

433
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:47,210
S2: And you're cold.

434
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:50,600
S1: Exactly. Exactly. That would be helpful stuff for someone kind

435
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:51,890
S1: of getting their start.

436
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:53,389
S3: It would be your mentors.

437
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:54,740
S1: Katy Perry as.

438
00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:55,040
S7: Well.

439
00:18:56,060 --> 00:18:58,340
S3: Can't we just enter the voice and she'll probably judge us?

440
00:18:58,340 --> 00:18:59,330
S2: Yeah, that'd be good.

441
00:18:59,540 --> 00:19:01,670
S1: So I mentioned I've talked about vampire so many times,

442
00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:04,040
S1: but the other one, all American bitch I do like,

443
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,430
S1: not just because of the Joan Didion reference, my friend.

444
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,990
S1: You want to talk us through that? Yes.

445
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:09,950
S2: Joan Didion isn't.

446
00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:12,020
S3: I mean, it feels unfair that you get to talk

447
00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,030
S3: about that.

448
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,510
S2: Joan Didion is an author.

449
00:19:15,109 --> 00:19:17,240
S3: Is that. That's where we're at?

450
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,670
S2: Yes. And she wrote Slouching Towards Bethlehem.

451
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:23,000
S1: I think Joan Didion uses the term all American bitch

452
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,510
S1: in an essay in her collection, The White Album. But also,

453
00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:28,699
S1: this could be really embarrassing unless Slouching Towards Bethlehem is

454
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,649
S1: part of the White Album. Mel, This is why we

455
00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:31,220
S1: have you here.

456
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:31,490
S7: Can you.

457
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:32,930
S1: Can you step.

458
00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:33,679
S7: In and say something?

459
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,660
S3: The White Album is its own album.

460
00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:38,420
S1: Which is different to the Beatles. The White Album.

461
00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:39,590
S2: Joan Didion is an author.

462
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,240
S3: Thank you, Thomas. You won't be bringing any more fun

463
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,600
S3: facts to to us. It is from the White Album,

464
00:19:48,109 --> 00:19:51,770
S3: and Slouching Towards Bethlehem is another book, also a fantastic book.

465
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:53,330
S3: I recommend you read them both. I'll bring them in

466
00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:54,109
S3: for you tomorrow.

467
00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:55,940
S2: I look forward to that.

468
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:59,810
S1: Do you know, Mel, if any of the themes broached

469
00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:02,750
S1: by Joan Didion in either of these books relate to Olivia?

470
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:06,050
S1: Like as Joan talking about, I don't know, like some

471
00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:09,709
S1: loser in LA that she dated who treated her really badly.

472
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:11,450
S1: Is that is that what the White Album is about?

473
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,659
S3: She did have a complex relationship with her husband, but

474
00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:17,330
S3: I mean, Joan was very Californian. There's an element of

475
00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:20,720
S3: that kind of California LA scene going on. Also, a

476
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,230
S3: lot of those, particularly slouching towards Bethlehem, was a period

477
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:26,750
S3: of cultural change in the US where the youth were

478
00:20:26,750 --> 00:20:29,510
S3: kind of speaking up and finding their voice. And there's

479
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:32,209
S3: a bit of that in this in this album, but

480
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:33,770
S3: that's a great idea. I might do my PhD on

481
00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:34,310
S3: the subject.

482
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,050
UU: I am right as a father.

483
00:20:50,170 --> 00:20:51,970
S1: I mean, that's the part of Olivia that I think

484
00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:54,490
S1: is really interesting. You mentioned the kind of themes of feminism,

485
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:57,610
S1: but as a pop star and I guess this puts

486
00:20:57,740 --> 00:21:00,459
S1: a in a little bit of a different category to

487
00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:03,159
S1: someone like Taylor Swift. We are dancing around the Olivia

488
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,770
S1: Taylor Swift conversation, but don't worry, we will get there.

489
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,369
S1: She's been very vocal on political issues. She at her

490
00:21:09,369 --> 00:21:12,100
S1: concert has talked about Roe v Wade and women's right

491
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:15,939
S1: to choose. She is pretty like unabashed in taking stances

492
00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:18,730
S1: on things, which I think leads into the kind of

493
00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:21,040
S1: like pop punk aesthetic that some of the music is

494
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,250
S1: going for. Which kind of brings me to one of

495
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:26,620
S1: the more interesting things about the album that I want

496
00:21:26,619 --> 00:21:28,840
S1: to talk to you guys about, the reaction to it

497
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,120
S1: and sort of what it tells us about the way

498
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,200
S1: that we talk about and value pop music in 2023.

499
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,969
S1: So you said, Mel, that you wish that this is

500
00:21:36,970 --> 00:21:38,889
S1: an album that you had when you were growing up

501
00:21:38,890 --> 00:21:41,020
S1: as a teenage girl. And I think what's interesting is

502
00:21:41,020 --> 00:21:44,139
S1: we kind of did have music like this, like this

503
00:21:44,140 --> 00:21:47,680
S1: has been compared to Paramore, Hayley Williams, Avril Levine. I

504
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,870
S1: don't think it's like a one for one, but there

505
00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:54,680
S1: was music that was women doing like pop punk and pop,

506
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,669
S1: pop rock and talking about these kinds of themes. But

507
00:21:57,670 --> 00:22:01,720
S1: unlike now, it was largely ridiculed by like critics. It

508
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,800
S1: was popular and it had its fans. But the critical community,

509
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,609
S1: largely like male critics in their 30s, 40s and 50s,

510
00:22:09,609 --> 00:22:13,030
S1: derided it. And this is the era before optimism, before

511
00:22:13,030 --> 00:22:15,310
S1: we said that pop music and music that women like

512
00:22:15,310 --> 00:22:17,560
S1: is actually good and we should be paying attention to it.

513
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,720
S1: And so I wonder whether like how much of us

514
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,690
S1: saying and when I say us, the three of us,

515
00:22:22,690 --> 00:22:25,989
S1: but also websites like Pitchfork which gave sour seven out

516
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:28,780
S1: of ten and guts eight out of ten is a

517
00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:32,140
S1: little bit of like overcorrection. It's a bit of like, well, historically,

518
00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:35,919
S1: the music community has not paid attention to pop stars

519
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,770
S1: like Olivia. We've derided them. We've said they're not really

520
00:22:38,770 --> 00:22:42,190
S1: that important. And now we want to like say, this

521
00:22:42,190 --> 00:22:44,110
S1: is the best album. This is an amazing album, this

522
00:22:44,109 --> 00:22:46,000
S1: is album of the year. I wonder whether there is

523
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,129
S1: a little bit of not to say that this isn't

524
00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:50,950
S1: genuinely good album. My instinct is that some of the

525
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:55,180
S1: extremely lavish praise that it's gotten is partly a desire

526
00:22:55,180 --> 00:22:58,150
S1: to not be seen to be missing the zeitgeist again.

527
00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:01,540
S1: And I think maybe people of our age and I

528
00:23:01,570 --> 00:23:03,490
S1: wonder whether this is true for the three of us

529
00:23:03,490 --> 00:23:05,440
S1: to prove that we're cool and down with the kids

530
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,010
S1: because we love Olivia Rodrigo Is that too cynical a take?

531
00:23:09,670 --> 00:23:13,090
S3: Maybe. I don't think I agree there is a correction,

532
00:23:13,090 --> 00:23:15,760
S3: but I don't think Olivia could have existed in any

533
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,120
S3: time other than now and in this year, what people

534
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,550
S3: have dubbed the Year of the Girl, the Barbie movie.

535
00:23:21,550 --> 00:23:24,670
S3: The kind of realization that women in all areas have

536
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:28,930
S3: been historically kind of critically overlooked. But I think she's

537
00:23:28,930 --> 00:23:32,109
S3: so of this moment that it's not that's not only

538
00:23:32,109 --> 00:23:34,750
S3: why she's been a hit, like Avril Levine was huge

539
00:23:34,750 --> 00:23:38,110
S3: when I was a kid, but skater, boy and girl

540
00:23:38,109 --> 00:23:42,250
S3: friend and complicated. Those songs are about love. And yeah,

541
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,040
S3: Avril had the pop punk and a bit of an

542
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,590
S3: irony to it, but they were love songs. Gwen Stefani

543
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:50,619
S3: Great fun songs. But I really think Olivia is doing

544
00:23:50,619 --> 00:23:54,850
S3: something different with playing with this idea of femininity and

545
00:23:54,850 --> 00:23:57,070
S3: kind of going against the idea of a pop star.

546
00:23:57,070 --> 00:23:59,080
S3: So I think she is doing something different to what

547
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,470
S3: obviously she's building on on giant shoulders. But I think

548
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:05,200
S3: there is something unique about her that goes beyond kind

549
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,990
S3: of people worrying about missing the moment or trying to

550
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:08,560
S3: be cool.

551
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,240
S2: Yeah, I kind of think I'm somewhere in the middle

552
00:24:10,270 --> 00:24:12,820
S2: because like you say that, but then, like, I would

553
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:15,670
S2: love to watch like Pink listen to this album because

554
00:24:15,670 --> 00:24:17,590
S2: that Pink was a pop star who came from like

555
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:20,889
S2: very similar areas that Olivia seems to be like playing

556
00:24:20,890 --> 00:24:23,050
S2: from in terms of like kind of bucking the trend

557
00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:25,720
S2: and stuff and like part of that whole suite of

558
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,020
S2: pop stars that were a little bit like everyone loved them.

559
00:24:29,020 --> 00:24:32,109
S2: They were super famous, like I'm talking like Britney, Christina Pink,

560
00:24:32,109 --> 00:24:35,790
S2: like that era. But they did become like almost you know,

561
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:37,600
S2: they were always like kind of tabloid fodder. And it

562
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,820
S2: was like everyone just grouped them in together and they

563
00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:42,010
S2: had their feuds and they each performed at different award

564
00:24:42,010 --> 00:24:43,660
S2: shows and we liked them, but they were never like

565
00:24:43,660 --> 00:24:47,890
S2: critically discussed. And I do wonder if, like, you know,

566
00:24:47,890 --> 00:24:51,300
S2: we are overcorrecting a little bit just to be like, okay,

567
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,959
S2: you know, we did that last time and it was

568
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,870
S2: probably really bad. And so we got to make sure

569
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,250
S2: this time we like pay proper dues because I think

570
00:24:57,250 --> 00:24:58,780
S2: like I would be I would love and be a

571
00:24:58,780 --> 00:25:00,609
S2: good social experiment for all of us. Go back and

572
00:25:00,609 --> 00:25:02,980
S2: listen to like Avril first album or Pink's first album

573
00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:05,469
S2: and see if it like measures up to what we're

574
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:08,260
S2: getting now from like Olivia Rodrigo. Like, would the Pitchfork

575
00:25:08,260 --> 00:25:10,300
S2: guys listen to Pink's Funhouse and be like, Fuck me,

576
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:10,810
S2: nine out of ten.

577
00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:12,310
S8: This used to.

578
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:18,680
UU: Be a fun house. But now it's full of evil clowns.

579
00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:22,710
S1: It's well, this is this is an interesting thing because

580
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:25,109
S1: Pitchfork has been doing this project where it goes back

581
00:25:25,109 --> 00:25:28,080
S1: and is reviewing a lot of the records it marked down.

582
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,260
S1: And basically the most consistent theme is that women making

583
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:34,500
S1: pop music and like alt indie kind of music was

584
00:25:35,250 --> 00:25:38,460
S1: savagely reviewed back then in like the 90s and 2000.

585
00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:40,859
S1: So they clearly was that going on. I think like,

586
00:25:40,859 --> 00:25:42,960
S1: I know what you're saying. Male Like obviously this record

587
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,270
S1: is a reflection of its time and it's building on

588
00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:47,760
S1: building and building and building. So it is, that's what

589
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,290
S1: I mean. Like you can't just compare it to a

590
00:25:49,290 --> 00:25:51,660
S1: record from 20 years ago. But I also think if

591
00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:54,240
S1: this record did come out 20 years ago with songs

592
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,450
S1: like Get Him Back Exclamation Mark and Pretty Isn't Pretty

593
00:25:57,450 --> 00:26:00,449
S1: in Teenage Dream, I do think that a lot of

594
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,310
S1: the reaction would have been the same as it was

595
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:04,320
S1: to to Hayley Williams and to Avril and just hanging

596
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,440
S1: out another young woman singing about dumb themes, about love.

597
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,770
S1: Who really cares? So I think it's good that we

598
00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:13,770
S1: are correcting for that stuff and we are treating it

599
00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:17,580
S1: and we're engaging with a critically. But I do wonder

600
00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:21,150
S1: whether and I always think this when like there's unanimity

601
00:26:21,150 --> 00:26:24,020
S1: across everyone and there are so many calls for Album

602
00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:26,310
S1: of the Independent gives it five stars and gives it

603
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:28,530
S1: five stars. Pitchfork gives it eight out of ten. Rolling

604
00:26:28,530 --> 00:26:30,840
S1: Stone gives it five stars. Like I think this is

605
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,210
S1: a pretty good album. I don't think it's a five

606
00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:34,859
S1: star album. I don't think it's the best album of

607
00:26:34,859 --> 00:26:36,810
S1: the year. And I think what makes the conversation even

608
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:39,810
S1: more complicated is one of the reasons why I don't

609
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:42,930
S1: think the album is Five stars is because this is controversial,

610
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:45,090
S1: but it is like very derivative, like it's derivative in

611
00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:47,730
S1: a way that I like, but almost every track feels

612
00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:50,960
S1: like she is hat tipping to a different singer songwriter.

613
00:26:50,970 --> 00:26:53,580
S1: There's like the Lord track, there's a Billie Eilish track,

614
00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:55,620
S1: there's the Taylor Swift track, there's the Avril Lavigne track,

615
00:26:55,619 --> 00:26:57,780
S1: there's the Hayley Williams track. And that has been her

616
00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:00,960
S1: career up until now. And I'm not saying it's illegitimate.

617
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,930
S1: I'm thinking, I think that there's a great artist and

618
00:27:03,930 --> 00:27:07,410
S1: every piece of pop music builds on someone else, but

619
00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:10,230
S1: it's very obvious about those references. And I just think

620
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:13,619
S1: that it's not quite fresh. She hasn't figured out a

621
00:27:13,619 --> 00:27:16,830
S1: new sound to the extent that I think it's worth saying,

622
00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:18,720
S1: this is like five out of 5 or 10 out of.

623
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,330
S3: Ten, and I think that will be interesting to to

624
00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:25,020
S3: see whether she is granted the time commercially and critically,

625
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:27,990
S3: to find her own sound. Because one of the things

626
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:31,859
S3: we know from the early 2000 late 90s is that

627
00:27:31,859 --> 00:27:34,440
S3: and still now pop stars who are women have had

628
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800
S3: to continuously reinvent themselves. You know, innocent Britney to sexy

629
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560
S3: Britney and Christina to dirty ex Tina, you know.

630
00:27:40,830 --> 00:27:41,300
S7: Right era.

631
00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:45,030
S3: And the ones that don't reinvent themselves in an obvious way,

632
00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:49,470
S3: maybe like Avril or Katie kind of fall off the radar. So,

633
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:52,020
S3: you know, she is only 20. Olivia, It will be

634
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:54,780
S3: interesting to see how much leeway she gets to work

635
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:57,150
S3: on herself before the industry moves on and decides you're

636
00:27:57,150 --> 00:27:58,949
S3: old news and there's a new Olivia.

637
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:12,959
S1: So we've been dancing around the big conversation, the juicy conversation,

638
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,320
S1: at least on social media, that people really care about

639
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,659
S1: when it comes to Olivia, is her relationship, whether it's

640
00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:21,750
S1: good or bad, with Taylor Swift. And this is an

641
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:23,459
S1: old trope, right? I feel like every time there's a

642
00:28:23,460 --> 00:28:27,540
S1: new young female pop star, we have to compare them

643
00:28:27,540 --> 00:28:30,720
S1: to the existing young female pop star and say that

644
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,270
S1: they're battling out for the throne and like, who's coming

645
00:28:33,270 --> 00:28:36,030
S1: after who? I think we've done a good job of avoiding, like,

646
00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:38,700
S1: framing this album in those terms. But it is such

647
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,100
S1: a big part of the conversation around this album and

648
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:43,410
S1: Olivia's entire career. I just don't think it makes sense

649
00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:49,110
S1: to ignore it completely. So I wonder, Mel, like before

650
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:51,630
S1: we talk about what it means for Olivia, could you

651
00:28:51,630 --> 00:28:53,760
S1: give us a little bit of the background in terms

652
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,030
S1: of how Olivia came to be so tangled up with

653
00:28:57,030 --> 00:28:57,810
S1: Taylor Swift?

654
00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:59,880
S3: I can and I will say I do think this

655
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,520
S3: kind of obsession with reading into the songs is obviously

656
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,160
S3: also a gendered thing. I think, like men are often

657
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,300
S3: allowed to create art and women create autobiography across all fields.

658
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,460
S3: So I think that's worth, as you said, flagging. But

659
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:14,880
S3: how did it start? So Olivia, when she released driver's license,

660
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,690
S3: was a huge Swiftie love Swiftie Taylor was her idol.

661
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:22,410
S3: Taylor later on responded when she saw driver's license go

662
00:29:22,410 --> 00:29:23,910
S3: to the top of the chart and said, That's my

663
00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:27,120
S3: baby girl or something like that. Very cute. Sounds great. Yeah, great.

664
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:28,320
S3: And then they met.

665
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,160
S7: There were photo.

666
00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:36,090
S3: There were photos together. They were like bosom buddies and

667
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:40,860
S3: really got on. Then she releases her debut album, Sour

668
00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:45,120
S3: and retrospectively, Taylor comes and gets writing credits on certain

669
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,870
S3: songs for her, interpolating different Taylor tracks. So I think

670
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:52,320
S3: it was particularly Deja Vu and Cruel Summer. So Taylor

671
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,690
S3: gets this credit and then there's they seem to disappear

672
00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:57,390
S3: from each other and there's a sense that maybe there's

673
00:29:57,390 --> 00:29:59,880
S3: a bit of a feud because Taylor is now getting

674
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,130
S3: quite a large chunk of Olivia's reporters.

675
00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:03,690
S2: Millions in royalties.

676
00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:06,510
S3: Yeah, almost 50%, I think, of royalties for these songs.

677
00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:07,650
S2: Some more money, though, I think.

678
00:30:07,710 --> 00:30:09,750
S3: Yeah, I think people turned against her a bit for that.

679
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:12,300
S3: Then they stopped kind of hanging out with each other.

680
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:14,310
S3: Everyone was like, Oh, there's a feud because of this.

681
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:22,320
S3: Then Vampire comes out, bloodsucker fame, fuck us. That's also Sorry, Mum. Why.

682
00:30:22,830 --> 00:30:25,380
S2: That's fame. Fuck is a great lyric.

683
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:26,460
S7: It's really good. Respect that.

684
00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:28,080
S1: Well the thing that happened in between right it was

685
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,680
S1: that driver's license is about this sort of like tryst

686
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,840
S1: or this sort of complicated love triangle. Something you know,

687
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,230
S1: a lot of Atmel and.

688
00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:38,610
S2: Weave like some other Disney folk.

689
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:41,370
S1: Yeah. Sabrina Carpenter is the alleged person, and that's who

690
00:30:41,370 --> 00:30:45,090
S1: Taylor Swift picked to be the Support Act for her

691
00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:49,290
S1: Australian eras tour. Yeah, that's A-grade pass. Yeah, totally. And yeah.

692
00:30:49,290 --> 00:30:51,420
S1: And so that then leads to vampire.

693
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,030
S3: Everyone thinking vampire is about her and then everyone thinking

694
00:30:54,030 --> 00:30:56,310
S3: The Grudge, which is also on Olivia's new album, is

695
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:58,920
S3: about Taylor. Everyone's obsessed with this idea. Olivia kind of

696
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,340
S3: skirts around the issue. In interviews with this album, she

697
00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:05,130
S3: says things like, I've learned a lot. I didn't understand.

698
00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:08,550
S3: I was new, I've moved on, hasn't addressed it directly.

699
00:31:08,550 --> 00:31:10,200
S3: I won't say that any of these songs are about Taylor,

700
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,150
S3: and I don't really buy that they are about.

701
00:31:12,150 --> 00:31:12,810
S7: Yeah. I was going to ask you.

702
00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:14,310
S1: Guys, what do you think, Thomas? Do you think either

703
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:17,880
S1: Vampire or The Grudge is about Taylor I don't.

704
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,740
S2: I don't think they're explicitly about Taylor, but I think

705
00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:24,390
S2: like putting we're all pretty cynical at this point. I

706
00:31:24,390 --> 00:31:29,040
S2: think like it's two things. One, you were like, I

707
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,020
S2: think this happens. Why am I doing this? I think

708
00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:34,170
S2: this happens that to to women artists a lot. But

709
00:31:34,170 --> 00:31:36,780
S2: I reckon like this is just part of the fucking game,

710
00:31:36,780 --> 00:31:40,290
S2: like Drake and Pusha T, like going way back like

711
00:31:40,290 --> 00:31:42,690
S2: 50 Cent and Kanye like the.

712
00:31:42,930 --> 00:31:43,740
S1: Jay-Z and Nas.

713
00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:47,610
S2: Yeah, like record labels know that nothing like generates interest

714
00:31:47,610 --> 00:31:51,390
S2: and sells records. Then like, even the, the like possible

715
00:31:51,390 --> 00:31:54,600
S2: rumor of a feud. And so, like, I don't think

716
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,080
S2: I think it's naive that in the songwriting process people

717
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,020
S2: are not like factoring this in. Like those songs may

718
00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:02,940
S2: not be about Taylor, but maybe she was like, If

719
00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:05,760
S2: it seems like they are, that will be a good thing.

720
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,490
S1: I think that's probably true. I mean, I think I

721
00:32:08,490 --> 00:32:10,800
S1: think it's true that there's a level of scrutiny. I

722
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,780
S1: don't know. I feel like I'm moderating between men and

723
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:15,690
S1: women right now. There's obviously a level of scrutiny applied

724
00:32:15,690 --> 00:32:18,360
S1: to to women artists that that isn't to to men

725
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,910
S1: in specifically when it comes to like the gossip and

726
00:32:20,910 --> 00:32:23,430
S1: minutia of who's sleeping with who and relationships or whatever.

727
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:26,190
S1: We also know that Taylor Swift does put coded messages

728
00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:28,470
S1: in her lyrics, and that's an entire generation of music

729
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:31,170
S1: fans that have been taught to treat every line like

730
00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:33,450
S1: it could have 15 different meanings. And I think you're

731
00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:36,300
S1: also totally right that like Olivia not coming out and saying,

732
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,420
S1: this is definitely not about Taylor Swift helps her sell

733
00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:43,350
S1: records because if you're a young pop star just being

734
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:45,840
S1: mentioned in the same sentence as Taylor Swift is a

735
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,860
S1: massive boost. Right? But I ultimately don't think that Olivia

736
00:32:49,860 --> 00:32:52,890
S1: is like writing secret coded songs about Taylor Swift. I

737
00:32:52,890 --> 00:32:54,750
S1: just think it doesn't really make sense in the context

738
00:32:54,750 --> 00:32:57,570
S1: of the album. Is she fine for there to be

739
00:32:57,570 --> 00:33:00,630
S1: some conjecture about it? Is she deliberately a little bit

740
00:33:00,630 --> 00:33:04,230
S1: opaque in interviews? Absolutely. But I think like, that's to

741
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:06,300
S1: her benefit and probably to Taylor Swift's benefit.

742
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:08,560
S3: Yeah. And I do think, as you're saying. Taylor kind

743
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,200
S3: of really pioneered the Easter egg in a song thing.

744
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,270
S3: And I do think it is maybe something Olivia is

745
00:33:13,270 --> 00:33:15,820
S3: playing with a bit as well. It is a pretty

746
00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:18,760
S3: interesting moment for fan culture because of the whole online

747
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,640
S3: community to watch the kind of deep dives that people

748
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,130
S3: do like. It is quite it's easy to go down

749
00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:26,770
S3: the rabbit hole and impressive, the kind of sleuthing that

750
00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:27,640
S3: fans mean.

751
00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:29,530
S2: There wasn't much of a fucking Easter egg when she

752
00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:32,350
S2: drive by. John Mayer, My man on Dear John, that.

753
00:33:32,350 --> 00:33:33,430
S7: Was just like that was like a.

754
00:33:33,850 --> 00:33:37,180
S2: Hit man style execution. So yeah.

755
00:33:37,690 --> 00:33:39,220
S3: I mean, that was good for John Mayer. He was

756
00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:40,300
S3: irrelevant up till then.

757
00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:42,790
S2: I mean, then he released Paper Doll, his Slapback track.

758
00:33:42,790 --> 00:33:43,660
S2: So anyway, who.

759
00:33:43,660 --> 00:33:44,440
S3: Was that about?

760
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:45,880
S2: That was about Taylor Swift.

761
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:46,370
S7: True.

762
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,670
S1: Okay, so you guys talking about Taylor Swift and John

763
00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:53,620
S1: Mayer is a natural segue into our next segment. But

764
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:55,030
S1: before we get there, I feel like there are a

765
00:33:55,030 --> 00:33:58,180
S1: couple of things to hit on to wrap up our

766
00:33:58,180 --> 00:34:02,890
S1: conversation about Guts Stand Out lyrics. Thomas, you go on.

767
00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:05,290
S2: Yes. Well, there's like I said on first listen, I

768
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:07,270
S2: was like, that's funny. That's funny. And you will see

769
00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:10,029
S2: loads of these popping up on people's like Instagram captions, like,

770
00:34:10,030 --> 00:34:12,489
S2: you know, when summer hits and they're like, No, this

771
00:34:12,489 --> 00:34:14,050
S2: will be great. I thought this one was really funny

772
00:34:14,050 --> 00:34:15,040
S2: from Get Him Back.

773
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:15,700
S3: Will you sing it.

774
00:34:15,910 --> 00:34:19,780
S2: I've or not I've done my Yeah but I am

775
00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:21,879
S2: my father's daughter so maybe I can fix him from

776
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,290
S2: getting back. Which I thought was very funny because her

777
00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:26,319
S2: father is a therapist. Yeah. So I liked that level of.

778
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,220
S2: Kind of like bringing.

779
00:34:27,310 --> 00:34:28,030
S3: A little Easter egg.

780
00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:28,660
S7: There, isn't it.

781
00:34:28,660 --> 00:34:29,170
S2: Yeah.

782
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,569
S1: I've got, I've got one from Get him back as well.

783
00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:33,640
S1: He said he's six foot two and I'm like dude

784
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,100
S1: nice try. I feel like that's women are always talking

785
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:37,900
S1: about men lying on Tinder or whatever about the height.

786
00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:38,710
S1: I feel like that's what that's around.

787
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:39,370
S7: Literally, last week.

788
00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:41,440
S2: We were doing this. Won't you like. Yeah, I'm six one.

789
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,810
S7: I've literally never said that. What are you talking about last.

790
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:44,200
S7: What we're not.

791
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,270
S2: Discussing discussing heights somewhere in the office.

792
00:34:46,270 --> 00:34:48,339
S3: Was I don't think Oz was going around saying I'm

793
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:48,700
S3: six foot.

794
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:51,549
S7: Long. Like. Like very, very checkable.

795
00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:52,750
S1: I'm like five, nine.

796
00:34:52,750 --> 00:34:53,310
S7: Yeah.

797
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,469
S2: Five, eight. That's what you are? No, I actually, I'm 62,

798
00:34:56,469 --> 00:34:57,670
S2: which is crazy, but.

799
00:34:57,969 --> 00:34:58,239
S7: Dude.

800
00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:58,870
S1: Nice try.

801
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,210
S2: What's your favorite lyric? Something about Joan.

802
00:35:01,210 --> 00:35:01,660
S7: Didion.

803
00:35:02,410 --> 00:35:05,980
S3: Yeah. You've had a crash course in It was from

804
00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:09,610
S3: All American Beach, actually. I quite liked when she sings

805
00:35:09,610 --> 00:35:12,160
S3: I've got salt in my motherfucking pocket. You best believe

806
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,379
S3: like I like the the of swears.

807
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:17,430
S7: Swears. Yeah. Yeah. Take that Disney. Yeah yeah.

808
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,600
S2: I think the thing that's really interesting for me about

809
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,000
S2: this album is that there's always so much chat about

810
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,210
S2: dreaded second album syndrome. And you know, she's spoken about

811
00:35:25,210 --> 00:35:28,540
S2: it in interviews like I think Katy Perry, her mentor, famously.

812
00:35:28,900 --> 00:35:29,860
S7: Said, Yours.

813
00:35:29,860 --> 00:35:32,259
S2: And mine said, you have your whole life to write

814
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,450
S2: your first album and two years to write your second.

815
00:35:34,570 --> 00:35:37,360
S2: So second album is like a big thing, kind of

816
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,860
S2: like second book syndrome, just so you can get on

817
00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:39,399
S2: the level.

818
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,460
S3: We call that second book blues in the literary world.

819
00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:45,880
S2: Exactly. But I would say Olivia has very much avoided

820
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,970
S2: second album syndrome. She's smashed it with guts. So I

821
00:35:48,969 --> 00:35:50,740
S2: thought it'd be interesting to ask you guys, what is

822
00:35:50,739 --> 00:35:52,450
S2: your favorite second album?

823
00:35:52,570 --> 00:35:54,400
S3: Okay, I'm actually going to pick and this is one

824
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,470
S3: of Olivia's main girls to Carole King with Tapestry, 1971.

825
00:35:59,469 --> 00:36:03,550
S3: So Carole King's first album writer was an absolute flop,

826
00:36:03,550 --> 00:36:05,590
S3: barely got any attention, came out the year before. She

827
00:36:05,590 --> 00:36:07,989
S3: had been a songwriter on other tracks. First album no

828
00:36:07,989 --> 00:36:11,560
S3: one cared about. Then you later outcome's tapestry with It's

829
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,380
S3: Too Late. I Feel the earth move. You got a friend.

830
00:36:14,380 --> 00:36:16,120
S3: Will you love me tomorrow? You make me feel a

831
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,430
S3: natural like a natural woman. It's one of the best

832
00:36:18,430 --> 00:36:21,400
S3: selling albums of all time. 30 million copies won four

833
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,820
S3: Grammy awards and it charted for the next six years.

834
00:36:24,820 --> 00:36:26,410
S3: And actually, I went and saw the musical not that

835
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:29,319
S3: long ago when it came me. So I think in

836
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,980
S3: terms of bouncing back from a commercial and critical flop tapestry,

837
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:35,080
S3: that was that's got to be on the top of

838
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,310
S3: the list. What about you? Tapestry is a.

839
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:38,890
S2: Great album, and my mom absolutely played it to death.

840
00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:40,239
S2: So many good songs. But I was I think the

841
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,040
S2: thing that's funny about Tapestry is never before has a

842
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,520
S2: collection of songs ever said so loudly. I have a

843
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,570
S2: cat on my album cover. But yeah, great album and

844
00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:52,870
S2: I do love it. Um, look, I have a feeling.

845
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:55,300
S7: That I'm worried we've got the same. Yeah, I have

846
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:56,600
S7: a feeling that we'll have the same say.

847
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:56,920
S1: True.

848
00:36:57,130 --> 00:36:58,089
S3: Should I count you down?

849
00:36:58,090 --> 00:36:58,589
S7: Yeah. Okay.

850
00:36:58,719 --> 00:36:59,439
S3: This is fun.

851
00:36:59,530 --> 00:37:00,940
S2: I was going to say the album name.

852
00:37:00,940 --> 00:37:01,690
S7: Yeah. Okay.

853
00:37:01,690 --> 00:37:04,650
S3: Okay. Three, two, one. Right.

854
00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:09,760
S7: Registration, cliche. You guys.

855
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,810
S2: I mean, did.

856
00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:12,550
S3: You just google best second album?

857
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,339
S2: No, but it's just it's the best second album, unfortunately.

858
00:37:15,489 --> 00:37:20,320
S2: Obviously Kanye West back when he was not problematic. I mean,

859
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,799
S2: the College Dropout was fucking amazing. And then a year later,

860
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,209
S2: he drops late registration. It's just like. Like Gold Digger

861
00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:29,530
S2: is one of the all time great tracks.

862
00:37:29,530 --> 00:37:33,279
S1: The Sky Gold Digger Drive Slow Crack Music Diamonds from

863
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,200
S1: Sierra Leone. Hey, Mama. Oh, my.

864
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:35,560
S7: God.

865
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,020
S2: And also a great album. I would say, though, and

866
00:37:38,020 --> 00:37:40,750
S2: this 1st May shock you that John Mayer's Heavier Things

867
00:37:40,750 --> 00:37:44,650
S2: 2003 with his first ever number one single in Daughters,

868
00:37:44,650 --> 00:37:47,380
S2: which of course, earned the 2005 Grammy for Song of

869
00:37:47,380 --> 00:37:50,110
S2: the Year, beating out Kanye and Hoobastank.

870
00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:53,379
S3: Are you like getting royalties for John Mayer?

871
00:37:53,380 --> 00:37:55,420
S7: No, I wish that was a really good second album.

872
00:37:55,420 --> 00:37:57,790
S2: Have you thinks like very, you know, like I just want.

873
00:37:57,790 --> 00:38:00,279
S3: The listeners to know that Thomas has like 15 John

874
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,650
S3: Mayer shirts that he like wears periodically to work.

875
00:38:03,820 --> 00:38:06,430
S2: I love John Mayer. And you can hear more about

876
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,540
S2: my John Mayer podcast.

877
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,799
S3: But yes, I saw Kanye perform that album in Sydney

878
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,200
S3: when he weirdly toured with U2.

879
00:38:13,230 --> 00:38:15,900
S7: Yeah, that was a he was like to support for

880
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:16,380
S7: you to.

881
00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:19,530
S3: Write like that was why Kanye was amazing. Yeah.

882
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,350
S1: Okay. So we mentioned at the top of the show

883
00:38:22,350 --> 00:38:24,060
S1: that we were going to talk a bit about what

884
00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:28,830
S1: seems to be celebrity meltdown. Mayhem at the moment certainly

885
00:38:28,830 --> 00:38:32,520
S1: fit into the Olivia Rodrigo conversation at all, but we

886
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,860
S1: couldn't really stop talking about it the last week, and

887
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:37,919
S1: we thought there has to be an opportunity here, one,

888
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,290
S1: for us to talk about why this seems to be

889
00:38:40,290 --> 00:38:42,839
S1: getting so many people's attention and to an opportunity for

890
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,830
S1: Thomas to tee off on his least favorite celeb pairing

891
00:38:46,830 --> 00:38:49,440
S1: of the year so.

892
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:50,219
S2: Of all time.

893
00:38:50,219 --> 00:38:53,880
S1: So maybe we should start there. So the US Open

894
00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:58,910
S1: early this week. Beautiful guy. Cousin Richie from the Bear. Yeah.

895
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,710
S1: Laverne Cox hanging out in this very fancy corporate box

896
00:39:01,710 --> 00:39:05,850
S1: and then up in the corner playing with each other's hair, kissing, cheering,

897
00:39:05,850 --> 00:39:07,890
S1: whooping in love. Who was it?

898
00:39:08,850 --> 00:39:13,320
S2: It was Timothy. I look like a medieval shoe. Charlemagne

899
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:17,610
S2: and Kylie. Hottest billionaire in the world.

900
00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:19,920
S7: Jenner contested whether she's a billionaire.

901
00:39:19,930 --> 00:39:21,000
S1: Just want to get that out there. Yeah, but.

902
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,070
S2: She's a billionaire in my eyes. Yeah. Like, okay, so

903
00:39:23,070 --> 00:39:25,260
S2: I think this is probably firstly, I love the US Open,

904
00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:26,270
S2: so this just ruined the.

905
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:27,120
S7: Moment for me.

906
00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:30,000
S2: Secondly, I did say a really funny thing that was like,

907
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,440
S2: you know, because the pictures were kind of doing the

908
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,450
S2: rounds of that, a shot of the box with like

909
00:39:33,450 --> 00:39:35,640
S2: Cousin Richie and Laverne Cox and stuff. And it was

910
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,740
S2: like there was a meme that was like, every shot

911
00:39:37,739 --> 00:39:39,720
S2: feels like the new cast announcement for the White Lotus.

912
00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:43,620
S2: But yeah, like, I mean people, it's been rumored for

913
00:39:43,620 --> 00:39:46,160
S2: ages that Timothy and Kylie are a thing and you know,

914
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:46,830
S2: there are like.

915
00:39:47,010 --> 00:39:48,470
S3: And you've been distressed about this.

916
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,120
S2: Distressed, Yeah. And there are pictures of him like her

917
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,090
S2: car at his place and his car at her place, blah, blah, blah,

918
00:39:54,090 --> 00:39:56,640
S2: but never actually together. And then they like fucking this

919
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,290
S2: week they just went all out. So they were first

920
00:39:58,290 --> 00:40:00,810
S2: they were spotted at a Beyonce concert. Yeah. And he

921
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:02,939
S2: was like smoking and ashing on to the plebs heads,

922
00:40:02,940 --> 00:40:05,400
S2: which was pretty funny, but they were kissing and stuff.

923
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
S2: And then us open, which is like if you go

924
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,540
S2: to a tennis tournament, that's like a hard launch.

925
00:40:09,540 --> 00:40:11,009
S7: Yeah, you're ready to be seen. Yeah. That's like.

926
00:40:11,010 --> 00:40:14,759
S2: That's, that's legit. And yeah, there they were like, he

927
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,040
S2: was like dressed head to toe in Celine. She was like,

928
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,990
S2: playing with his hair. They were kissing. And it was

929
00:40:18,989 --> 00:40:22,170
S2: just like, Fuck, man. Like, just like, you know.

930
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:23,160
S3: Can we unpack.

931
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:23,969
S7: Like.

932
00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:24,959
S1: Like what?

933
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,340
S7: Why are you so upset.

934
00:40:26,430 --> 00:40:27,600
S1: Agitated, agitating.

935
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,980
S7: You? I just think.

936
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:32,040
S2: He. That just doesn't make sense. Right?

937
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,660
S3: He about it doesn't make sense.

938
00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:34,020
S7: He is.

939
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:34,650
S2: This like, wait.

940
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:36,000
S7: Fish, are you like.

941
00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:37,680
S3: Here we go against the waifs.

942
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:38,430
S7: Again. I just don't.

943
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:39,989
S2: I mean I just fail to see.

944
00:40:39,989 --> 00:40:41,550
S7: How you hate fail to.

945
00:40:41,550 --> 00:40:43,140
S2: See how it works. I don't.

946
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:46,270
S7: Like okay, I made you human beings.

947
00:40:46,530 --> 00:40:47,850
S3: With emotions and intellect.

948
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,160
S2: She is like, so sexy.

949
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,459
S7: And he is. He's Caitlyn year old boy.

950
00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:55,410
S2: And we we went through the day I made you

951
00:40:55,410 --> 00:40:59,340
S2: Google Timothy Chalamet shirtless and even you were like, it's

952
00:40:59,370 --> 00:40:59,820
S2: a bit off.

953
00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:02,920
S3: Well, we then compared Kylie's other boyfriends without a shirt.

954
00:41:03,090 --> 00:41:04,319
S7: And I'm just like, even like, I mean.

955
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,149
S2: Look, this sounds weird, but even the thought of them,

956
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:08,850
S2: like having sex and stuff, I'm like, he probably.

957
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:09,750
S7: Cries. I agree that.

958
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,290
S2: He cries quietly in like seven languages and she just, like,

959
00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:15,089
S2: takes him to town. I just don't get it.

960
00:41:15,090 --> 00:41:18,960
S3: And do you think he's cerebral and she's just corporeal? Like.

961
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,390
S2: Yes, exactly. And I just think I mean, I think

962
00:41:21,390 --> 00:41:23,700
S2: the general, like for the Timothy Stans, they're like, oh

963
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:26,010
S2: my God, she's just trying to use him for credit. Okay, This.

964
00:41:26,010 --> 00:41:26,640
S7: Is this is a bit so.

965
00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:29,549
S1: That's a bit I'm interested in is like their respective

966
00:41:29,550 --> 00:41:31,470
S1: fans seem to be losing their minds about this.

967
00:41:31,469 --> 00:41:32,040
S7: Yeah. And so they.

968
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:32,819
S2: Should be man.

969
00:41:32,820 --> 00:41:35,759
S9: Like they are given some PDA at the US Open

970
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,160
S9: like this is what Kylie Jenner was missing in her life.

971
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,930
S9: Timothy Charm these two.

972
00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:41,760
S7: I can't see him as a father of two, like

973
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,410
S7: he's way too young for two.

974
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,540
S10: Even though I know Kylie is younger than him. Like

975
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:47,460
S10: she's matured in a way, like because she's happy.

976
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,330
S11: Jenner She doesn't make sense.

977
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:52,680
S10: Just doesn't make sense.

978
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:55,739
S12: I had no interest. I was literally like, They're too

979
00:41:55,739 --> 00:41:59,160
S12: hot and famous people being famous and hot. Case closed

980
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:00,480
S12: a Kris Jenner production.

981
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:01,750
S9: About Kylie Jenner.

982
00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:05,790
S13: Jenner and Timothy Shell, my dad's cousin down there, put

983
00:42:05,790 --> 00:42:07,500
S13: some respect on his name.

984
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:13,960
S1: So the Timothy heads hate it because they think they

985
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,360
S1: think Timothy is cool, intellectual. And it should be with

986
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,330
S1: like Frances McDormand, like he was in the French. And

987
00:42:19,330 --> 00:42:21,640
S1: so they think that like Kylie's like, you know, quote,

988
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,820
S1: trash celeb is that that's that's the vibe. And then

989
00:42:24,820 --> 00:42:27,850
S1: the Kylie fans, i.e., you think she's too cool.

990
00:42:27,850 --> 00:42:29,980
S2: She's just like, I mean, I don't really she's just

991
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:30,610
S2: too hot for him.

992
00:42:30,610 --> 00:42:33,549
S1: I think I've started to realize after spending a lot

993
00:42:33,550 --> 00:42:35,140
S1: of time with you, Thomas, and doing this podcast with

994
00:42:35,140 --> 00:42:37,450
S1: you that who you think is like cool and not

995
00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:40,420
S1: cool entirely aligns with like your sense of yourself.

996
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:43,630
S7: Well, yes. I mean, I do.

997
00:42:43,630 --> 00:42:47,439
S2: I will stand by this. She, Kylie, is, I think,

998
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,830
S2: very attractive and she should be with like a thick boy.

999
00:42:51,790 --> 00:42:54,640
S1: He like like a like a Jeremy Allen. What?

1000
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,440
S7: Yes, exactly. Hey, so are.

1001
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,600
S3: You happy with Jeremy and Selena as a rumored.

1002
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,310
S2: Couple? Wait, with that. Oh, if Kylie was at the

1003
00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:02,230
S2: tennis with Jeremy on. Why? Like, can you imagine how

1004
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:02,830
S2: stoked I would be?

1005
00:43:02,830 --> 00:43:04,620
S7: Yeah, you would like.

1006
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:06,069
S1: Because it's good for your stock. Your stock.

1007
00:43:06,070 --> 00:43:06,670
S7: Goes down. Exactly.

1008
00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:08,140
S2: And that's what the podcast is for.

1009
00:43:08,170 --> 00:43:10,090
S3: This is it. This is you're right, Oz. This is

1010
00:43:10,090 --> 00:43:10,930
S3: what's at the heart of it.

1011
00:43:11,230 --> 00:43:13,390
S2: Timothy Are you saying you guys are both pro this

1012
00:43:13,390 --> 00:43:15,340
S2: couple then they seem good together.

1013
00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:16,090
S10: I'm not, I'm not, I'm.

1014
00:43:16,090 --> 00:43:19,000
S1: Not pro rant yet. I'm like, you know that seemed

1015
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,049
S1: to be having a fun time.

1016
00:43:20,050 --> 00:43:22,149
S7: I seem offended Lost. Yeah. Do you reckon.

1017
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:23,560
S2: He'll be popping up on Keeping Up with the.

1018
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,370
S7: Kardashians? No, I.

1019
00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:26,200
S1: Think he doesn't send like, that kind of vibe. But.

1020
00:43:26,290 --> 00:43:27,940
S1: But also, like, as much as I'm making fun of

1021
00:43:27,940 --> 00:43:29,859
S1: you for what you're saying, I relate to it. Like

1022
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:32,470
S1: I was not around or I was too young when

1023
00:43:32,469 --> 00:43:36,070
S1: Princess Diana was dating that hot Pakistani surgeon. But that

1024
00:43:36,070 --> 00:43:38,230
S1: would have been great for, like, Pakistani guys. Yes. You know,

1025
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:39,370
S1: it's like the Princess Diana.

1026
00:43:39,370 --> 00:43:41,290
S7: So I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.

1027
00:43:41,410 --> 00:43:43,030
S2: I just think, like, you know. Sorry.

1028
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:43,810
S3: What's he's.

1029
00:43:43,810 --> 00:43:45,339
S7: Like? No, I just mean, like, you're.

1030
00:43:45,340 --> 00:43:46,480
S3: Lacking representation.

1031
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:46,989
S7: On you.

1032
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:48,310
S2: I just think, like.

1033
00:43:48,310 --> 00:43:49,600
S7: If dating.

1034
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:51,310
S1: Nick Gianopulos, then it'd.

1035
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:52,629
S7: Be great. No, You know what I would have loved

1036
00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:52,870
S7: if she.

1037
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:55,380
S2: Was sitting in, like. I mean, no, we love Cozy

1038
00:43:55,420 --> 00:43:59,109
S2: Nick Kyrgios girlfriend here, but if she stepped out with Kyrgios,

1039
00:43:59,110 --> 00:44:01,450
S2: I'd be like, I mean, this is pretty good. This

1040
00:44:01,450 --> 00:44:02,800
S2: is pretty good times for everybody.

1041
00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:05,680
S3: But I mean, Kylie's had a hard go with relationships.

1042
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,719
S3: You maybe this is what she needs. She needed to

1043
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,430
S3: do something completely different to what she's done in the past.

1044
00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:12,460
S3: And maybe that's mature and this will be a good,

1045
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:13,330
S3: healthy relationship. Yeah.

1046
00:44:13,330 --> 00:44:15,009
S2: Look, maybe we'll. I just can't. I mean, I'm just

1047
00:44:15,010 --> 00:44:18,040
S2: being honest about my visceral reaction to it was, like, seriously. Like,

1048
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,049
S2: he doesn't add up. And, like.

1049
00:44:20,170 --> 00:44:22,360
S3: You call with Kendall and Bad Bunny then because he's

1050
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,979
S3: fans were also very upset about.

1051
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:25,240
S2: That. That to me makes more sense to it because

1052
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:26,800
S2: he's like, fucking got a bit of edge.

1053
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,610
S7: Okay, yeah, I'm.

1054
00:44:27,610 --> 00:44:30,700
S1: Interested in this idea of like fans feeling ownership to

1055
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:34,239
S1: who their favorite celeb dates and doesn't date like this. This,

1056
00:44:34,270 --> 00:44:36,940
S1: this has blown up a lot recently. Like Doja cat

1057
00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:39,219
S1: was rumored to be with. I don't actually know the guy,

1058
00:44:39,219 --> 00:44:42,400
S1: but some sort of like toxic alt right personality and

1059
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,520
S1: people are off that. When Taylor Swift was rumored to

1060
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,910
S1: be dating Matty Healy people were really upset about that

1061
00:44:48,910 --> 00:44:51,580
S1: as well because of some of his comments. I guess

1062
00:44:51,580 --> 00:44:53,649
S1: I understand it in the sense that I think like

1063
00:44:53,650 --> 00:44:56,020
S1: it's nice that fans care about their artists, but I

1064
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:57,940
S1: do think some of this stuff gets a bit weird,

1065
00:44:57,940 --> 00:45:01,779
S1: like the parasocial element of I think about you as

1066
00:45:01,780 --> 00:45:03,370
S1: not just being a great artist look up to, but

1067
00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:06,790
S1: also an embodiment of my values and ideas. Therefore, you

1068
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:09,220
S1: cannot sleep with anyone or date anyone or be linked

1069
00:45:09,219 --> 00:45:13,060
S1: to anyone who seems to reflect something else that feels

1070
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:15,610
S1: like we've gone well through the looking glass in terms

1071
00:45:15,610 --> 00:45:16,270
S1: of this stuff.

1072
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:19,030
S3: Yeah, agree. And I don't know if it's entirely new

1073
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:21,910
S3: in terms of our obsession with celebrity couples and unlikely

1074
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:25,330
S3: celebrity couples, but the kind of fervor that the Internet

1075
00:45:25,330 --> 00:45:27,460
S3: creates has pushed it to levels I don't think we've

1076
00:45:27,460 --> 00:45:28,270
S3: ever seen.

1077
00:45:28,270 --> 00:45:29,230
S7: Before, especially.

1078
00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:31,790
S2: If there's a Kardashian or a Jenner involved, because like, yeah,

1079
00:45:32,050 --> 00:45:34,840
S2: that's such a machine. And they date like everyone who

1080
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,910
S2: they date is a kind of like a feels like

1081
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:39,670
S2: a plot point or like something contrived by Kris Jenner,

1082
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:41,380
S2: who's like in a big room with a bunch of

1083
00:45:41,380 --> 00:45:42,530
S2: screens like Minority Report, like.

1084
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:43,250
S7: Planning the next.

1085
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,989
S2: 50 years of the TV show. But yeah, I mean, look,

1086
00:45:46,989 --> 00:45:48,790
S2: I'm not I'm not for the record, I'm not full

1087
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:50,830
S2: blown Stan like on the Reddit threads being like, what

1088
00:45:50,830 --> 00:45:51,430
S2: the fuck?

1089
00:45:51,489 --> 00:45:52,419
S7: But I didn't think.

1090
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:53,860
S1: That until you mentioned the Reddit thread.

1091
00:45:54,190 --> 00:45:55,060
S7: Like, it's exactly, I.

1092
00:45:55,060 --> 00:45:56,890
S2: Saw it on Instagram and I was like, Well, this

1093
00:45:56,890 --> 00:45:57,520
S2: makes me sad.

1094
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:57,759
S7: Yeah.

1095
00:45:58,090 --> 00:46:00,310
S1: On the inverse of this and this is we're talking

1096
00:46:00,310 --> 00:46:02,680
S1: about celeb couplings, like when people are getting together and

1097
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,540
S1: the consternation that causes fans. And Thomas there's been a

1098
00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:09,610
S1: high profile breakup in the last couple of weeks. Joe

1099
00:46:09,610 --> 00:46:12,100
S1: Jonas and Sophie Turner, To be honest, one of those

1100
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:14,230
S1: couples I just forget are together. They're not really in

1101
00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:17,710
S1: the conversation until this this split. And again, what I

1102
00:46:17,710 --> 00:46:21,009
S1: think is really interesting about it is the way that

1103
00:46:21,010 --> 00:46:24,310
S1: it's been spun by respective camps and the conversations that

1104
00:46:24,310 --> 00:46:27,010
S1: it's elicited about the role of women, and particularly mothers

1105
00:46:27,010 --> 00:46:30,819
S1: like Joe Jonas at the start of this story, sort

1106
00:46:30,820 --> 00:46:32,320
S1: of seem to have the upper hand when it came

1107
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,330
S1: to the narrative being like, I'm just trying to like,

1108
00:46:34,330 --> 00:46:37,120
S1: raise my kids. And Sophie Turner's too busy working and

1109
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,739
S1: like not being a good mum and really seem to

1110
00:46:38,739 --> 00:46:41,440
S1: be kind of criticizing her. And Sophie Turner is not

1111
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,719
S1: really said a lot, but there was a big reaction

1112
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,240
S1: online and in the media, people saying, This is such

1113
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,150
S1: a classic trope. Joe Jonas, you're basically done dusted. Before

1114
00:46:49,150 --> 00:46:52,420
S1: Sophie Turner jumped in, she was like bigger and hotter

1115
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:54,640
S1: than you from Game of Thrones. And also women are

1116
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,310
S1: allowed to work and be mums. It's a really interesting

1117
00:46:57,310 --> 00:47:01,210
S1: like for me, this stuff really only becomes interesting worth

1118
00:47:01,210 --> 00:47:03,969
S1: talking about when it starts to reveal something about ourselves

1119
00:47:03,969 --> 00:47:05,980
S1: and about what society kind of values.

1120
00:47:05,980 --> 00:47:07,509
S3: Yeah. And I mean, I actually think it does tap

1121
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:08,800
S3: into the Olivia Rodrigo.

1122
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,450
S7: Debate because let's go link it together.

1123
00:47:11,219 --> 00:47:13,800
S3: Because, I mean, ultimately what we're seeing is like these

1124
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,490
S3: kind of feminist concepts of the 70s and 80s coming

1125
00:47:17,489 --> 00:47:20,550
S3: into like finally manifesting in pop culture in a really

1126
00:47:20,550 --> 00:47:22,770
S3: huge way, in the same way as like, Olivia's unpacking

1127
00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:25,799
S3: the patriarchy through saying things like Pretty isn't pretty. I'll

1128
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,560
S3: never feel good enough. You know? Immediately we see the

1129
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,560
S3: response to the Joe Jonas Camp's claims that she's a

1130
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,960
S3: bad mother. We see the response as, Oh, this is

1131
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,109
S3: a classic bad mother narrative. Like that's what's going on.

1132
00:47:37,110 --> 00:47:40,830
S3: Like people are really quick, I think, and more educated

1133
00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:44,070
S3: in some of these like narratives that have previously just continued.

1134
00:47:44,070 --> 00:47:44,370
S3: That's so.

1135
00:47:44,370 --> 00:47:46,500
S1: True. It's like this this story, like Joe Jonas would

1136
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:48,140
S1: have gotten away with it in almost any other era.

1137
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:48,899
S7: Yeah, like ten years.

1138
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:50,520
S2: Ago it would have been like, bang, that was the he.

1139
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:50,730
S7: Got.

1140
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,460
S1: Sophie Turner's like a crazy mum who hates her.

1141
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:55,410
S2: Kids. Yeah, she'd be like on the cover of, like,

1142
00:47:55,410 --> 00:47:56,640
S2: coming out of the shops or whatever.

1143
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:57,810
S7: And she's not even crying.

1144
00:47:57,810 --> 00:48:00,480
S3: She's not sad about it. She doesn't care. But now

1145
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,400
S3: we understand that there are all different ways to be

1146
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,160
S3: mothers and women and celebrities.

1147
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:06,960
S2: Also, who the fuck likes Joe Jonas?

1148
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:08,520
S3: Well, he's a short man, so I thought you would

1149
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:09,030
S3: like him.

1150
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:09,660
S2: I'm not sure.

1151
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:14,250
S7: I'm 15. I'm 60. I think you've just.

1152
00:48:14,250 --> 00:48:15,090
S3: Got short, man. Ego.

1153
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:15,540
S7: Yeah.

1154
00:48:16,380 --> 00:48:19,840
S2: Like Napoleon, who was a famous emperor. Um, I thought

1155
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,240
S2: it was funny how, like, at his concert, though, Because

1156
00:48:21,390 --> 00:48:22,710
S2: the Jonas Brothers are touring.

1157
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:23,460
S1: They're still touring.

1158
00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:24,419
S7: Well, yeah, I know.

1159
00:48:24,989 --> 00:48:26,610
S2: We advise from the Jonas Brothers that they're the type

1160
00:48:26,610 --> 00:48:30,000
S2: of family that practice kissing, I reckon with each other. Anyway,

1161
00:48:30,270 --> 00:48:32,910
S2: they're on tour. He's like, doing the whole thing, like

1162
00:48:33,060 --> 00:48:34,830
S2: on stage. Like, each night he'll be like, you know,

1163
00:48:34,980 --> 00:48:37,560
S2: just don't believe anything that doesn't come from these lips. Like,

1164
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,160
S2: Don't believe it, which sounds like a regular lyric, but yeah,

1165
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,880
S2: like I think he's very much the generally accepted takes

1166
00:48:43,890 --> 00:48:45,630
S2: a he's like kind of feeding stuff to the TMZ

1167
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,690
S2: and whatever, and she's just like staying quiet. But yeah,

1168
00:48:48,690 --> 00:48:51,060
S2: I think sadly for Joe Jonas and he's like the

1169
00:48:51,060 --> 00:48:55,440
S2: Jonas family. He's also like, not really that like I

1170
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:56,790
S2: think people like Sophie Turner more.

1171
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:57,689
S7: Definitely, who's.

1172
00:48:57,870 --> 00:49:00,180
S2: Trying to, trying to like hijack that narrative was never.

1173
00:49:00,180 --> 00:49:00,660
S7: Going to agree.

1174
00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:03,290
S1: It's the Jonas Brothers, the Burgess brothers. It's not going well. Like,

1175
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:06,150
S1: don't take aim at our guys, Latrell and Sophie Turner Exactly.

1176
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:08,790
S1: This is not a NRL reference that we need to

1177
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:10,859
S1: get into this. The other thing I wanted to say

1178
00:49:10,860 --> 00:49:13,350
S1: about this sort of stuff is like I do think

1179
00:49:13,350 --> 00:49:16,320
S1: it's healthy and important for us to talk about these

1180
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,330
S1: people every so often because I think there is an

1181
00:49:18,330 --> 00:49:22,230
S1: innate human desire to gossip and to pry into other

1182
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:24,870
S1: people's lives and to discuss what it might mean for us.

1183
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:27,630
S1: And I think if we don't have the Jonas Brothers,

1184
00:49:27,630 --> 00:49:31,410
S1: Sophie Turner, Timothy and Kylie to do that with, we

1185
00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:33,450
S1: turn on each other. And I think that's really bad

1186
00:49:33,450 --> 00:49:37,290
S1: for the social fabric of society. If we start if

1187
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,450
S1: you and I started talking about, you know, Thomas stepping

1188
00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:42,900
S1: out with whoever was wife Kylie, I think that creates

1189
00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:45,930
S1: tension and, you know, a fractious stuff for all of us.

1190
00:49:45,930 --> 00:49:48,150
S1: So I think it's good that we get to exert

1191
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:51,420
S1: our kind of base instincts on these, like people who

1192
00:49:51,420 --> 00:49:53,580
S1: are very many steps removed from us.

1193
00:49:53,580 --> 00:49:55,890
S3: So do you think how far would you apply this? Like,

1194
00:49:55,890 --> 00:49:58,560
S3: do you think if politicians were instead of like, if

1195
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,680
S3: they spent more time discussing celebrity gossip, there might be less?

1196
00:50:01,980 --> 00:50:02,310
S7: No, no.

1197
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,469
S1: I just purely mean in terms of like, normal people. Okay.

1198
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,240
S1: Like like like I think it explains why this stuff

1199
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,279
S1: happens and why we talk about it. And I'm just

1200
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,230
S1: trying to say that I think it's actually healthy in

1201
00:50:13,230 --> 00:50:15,690
S1: case anyone thinks that this is like a ridiculous conversation.

1202
00:50:15,690 --> 00:50:18,150
S2: No, but I think I think that's right, because especially

1203
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:20,880
S2: in this business, like often the response to people is like, oh, like,

1204
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,890
S2: why do you care about the Kardashians? Like, it's like

1205
00:50:22,890 --> 00:50:25,560
S2: it's seen as like lowest common denominator base and like

1206
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,379
S2: people judge it. And I think that's really like shortsighted

1207
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:30,480
S2: and an easy thing to do. And like, you know,

1208
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,400
S2: the reality is everyone like, this is the world that

1209
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,150
S2: we live in and these are the people that we like,

1210
00:50:34,170 --> 00:50:37,050
S2: watch and consume the content. And to just like write

1211
00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:39,930
S2: off gossip as like silly is, is shortsighted.

1212
00:50:39,930 --> 00:50:42,120
S3: I think you can treat it silly, but like think

1213
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,300
S3: ultimately what is celebrity, if not a direct reflection of

1214
00:50:45,300 --> 00:50:48,239
S3: our culture Like that is what celebrity is. So of course,

1215
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,880
S3: it's I agree with you, obviously, that it's important.

1216
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:51,450
S1: For this episode of.

1217
00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:52,220
S7: Shameless. Thanks.

1218
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,910
S1: No, we love the shameless gang. Good on them team.

1219
00:50:56,910 --> 00:51:00,690
S1: That was like a very eclectic conversation we had, but

1220
00:51:00,690 --> 00:51:02,969
S1: looking forward to blasting more of guts. Thanks so.

1221
00:51:02,969 --> 00:51:03,480
S7: Much.

1222
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:04,710
S3: Yeah, it's fun.

1223
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:05,370
S7: Happy to be here.

1224
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:14,609
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Julia Carr Ketzel.

1225
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:17,360
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1226
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,980
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.

1227
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,339
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with

1228
00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:25,130
S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.